A Charop Party for a Webcomic, thoughts?

[Urpriest]

I've got an idea for a webcomic kicking around in my head (which would probably require either shanghaiing an artist or managing to get ahold of my old lego collection, since I can't draw worth beans). The idea is that of a world in which the craziest of optimization tricks are possible, an extreme Tippyverse if you will, ruled of course by Pun-Pun and his Venerable Spellhoarding White Dragonspawn Loredrake proxies. In this world lives a party of adventurers, adventurers living on the bleeding edge of PO, but not quite TO. Silly, to be sure, but outmatched by the world around them. I'd like each of these adventurers to be Tier 1, and to be a thoroughly optimized example of their class. They all start the story at level 1, with dreams of one day challenging the status quo of their overpowered world.

The group is reluctantly led by a Grey Elf Generalist Wizard, aiming for Incantatrix. He's an Elven Generalist because while Focused Specialist Conjurer might be better, the main character of a comic like this should in principle be able to access any spell he wants to to allow for more range of jokes. He won't be making the mistake some people made. :vaarsuvius: He's also taken out substantial loans in order to Dark Chaos Shuffle his racial feats, so I'm looking for suggestions of worthwhile stuff for him to have at this low level. Also, caterpillar familiar for the butterfly later, and as a morality pet.

The others are a Druid, a Cleric, and an Artificer. I've decided to make the Artificer an Azurin so he can mysteriously sprout spectacles one day and annoy people. (The Artificer will probably be the loose cannon of the group, with his optimization tendencies submerged under a desire to just blast things with lots of expensive wand charges. :belkar:) As for the others, I would like there to be no repeated races in the group for visual diversity. I was thinking about using an Anthropomorphic Bat for the Druid, but I've started thinking about Illumian for Bone Talisman abuse. Trouble is, I was also thinking Illumian for the Cleric as well.

Any suggestions for feats, races, etc.? What does a ferociously Practically Optimized Tier 1 party look like?

[Seerow]

Why not throw in a Monk or Fighter for the jokes about "What do I do?!"

[Dusk Eclipse]

I say go Desert Half Orc for druid (IIRC the Half orc racial substitution level for druids are pretty good) Illuminian cleric is fine.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. This reminds me of that Ocean's 11 plot to steal all three copies of the Pact Primeval simultaneously using a Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd, and some others whose shtick I forgot...

AH, here we go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6483459#post6483459)


I have a cunning plan. It involves Epic Magic, a Wizard/Master Specialist/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, a Druid/Master of Many Forms/Planar Shepard, a Sorcerer/Mindbender/Incantatrix/Fatespinner, a Ninja/Swashbucker/Dread Pirate, a Kobold Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold domain/Pun-Pun Knight Vindicator, Bard/Warweaver, a Shadowcraft Gnome, a Hulking Hurler, a Witchalock Witchalock, Fistbeard Beardfist, two tweezers, 15 ounces of oil, the Pope, and a dull penknife.

[DeAnno]

One thing to remember about the background of a harshly optimized world is that it will have harshly optimized gear widely used and available. Expect the +5 Vest of Resistance (or lower levels for poor newbies) to be an almost everpresent fashion choice, rings of evasion everywhere, a belt of battle for every pair of trousers, and most everyone above a certain wealth to have a necklace of whatsit for the dark creature template.

The Druid might either be VOP (so his party can use his share of the loot :smallwink:) or else youll have a lot of fun portraying various animals wearing all sorts of gear (that could actually be better now that I think about it).

What racial feats does the Gray elf even have to shuffle, the weapon proficiencies? Those are listed more as a Quality than a Feat so he might have a hard sell convincing reality to do that :P. I can't think of anything offhand that starts with more than one actual bonus feat though, so you could just roll with it anyway.

A party like this could actually have a pretty rough time of it at low levels, and I'm not sure offhand how to set them up well that low down (reserve feats from complete mage at level 3 maybe? Or even right now with some sort of Southern Magician Precocious Apprentice cheese?) The druid's pet might be the most effective thing in the whole party at level 1, be sure to weigh it down with gear and stuff!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I take it the Druid and Cleric will be 'tanks' once they get Wild Shape and DMM: Persist Divine Power respectively?



Here's an idea for a character... an Emo Goth Dread Necromancer. Make sure he/she has plenty of cosmetics on hand. Why? Disposable minions. Meat shields and speed bumps to keep the rest of the party not engaged for that one round necessary to press Win buttons. He/she can also optimize the Fear Aura from level 5, so that by level 12, any opponent within 30' of her simply panics and runs. The trick is thus:

First off, Southern Magician (or other way to make spells be considered either arcane or divine)

Second: DMM: Persist Spell

Third: Advanced Learning: Aura of Terror (at level 12)

Fourth: Dread Witch PrC, to affect opponents normally immune to Fear

Fifth: the feat from the Book of Bad Latin to double her fear aura.

Oh, and don't forget Corpsecrafter and Destructive Retribution

[Endarire]

LA0 interpretation of a Blue Erudite!

Why not make the Elf a Dragonborn Fire Elf?

[dextercorvia]

LA0 interpretation of a Blue Erudite!

Why not make the Elf a Dragonborn Fire Elf?

Going dragonborn only after you have swapped out the racial feats.

[hobbitkniver]

Anything with multiple templates fits. Crazy things like bring 20 belts of healing and switching them on and off.

[Urpriest]

Why not throw in a Monk or Fighter for the jokes about "What do I do?!"

Eh, the Artificer's already going to be the token low-op group member. A Monk or Fighter would be funny for a few gags, but it would get stale pretty fast.


I say go Desert Half Orc for druid (IIRC the Half orc racial substitution level for druids are pretty good) Illuminian cleric is fine.

Hmm, definitely decent benefits. Maybe a little insufficiently "out there", though, in comparison to AnthroBat.


Hmm. This reminds me of that Ocean's 11 plot to steal all three copies of the Pact Primeval simultaneously using a Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, Planar Shepherd, and some others whose shtick I forgot...

AH, here we go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6483459#post6483459)

Most excellent.


One thing to remember about the background of a harshly optimized world is that it will have harshly optimized gear widely used and available. Expect the +5 Vest of Resistance (or lower levels for poor newbies) to be an almost everpresent fashion choice, rings of evasion everywhere, a belt of battle for every pair of trousers, and most everyone above a certain wealth to have a necklace of whatsit for the dark creature template.

The Druid might either be VOP (so his party can use his share of the loot :smallwink:) or else youll have a lot of fun portraying various animals wearing all sorts of gear (that could actually be better now that I think about it).

What racial feats does the Gray elf even have to shuffle, the weapon proficiencies? Those are listed more as a Quality than a Feat so he might have a hard sell convincing reality to do that :P. I can't think of anything offhand that starts with more than one actual bonus feat though, so you could just roll with it anyway.

A party like this could actually have a pretty rough time of it at low levels, and I'm not sure offhand how to set them up well that low down (reserve feats from complete mage at level 3 maybe? Or even right now with some sort of Southern Magician Precocious Apprentice cheese?) The druid's pet might be the most effective thing in the whole party at level 1, be sure to weigh it down with gear and stuff!

VoP doesn't work that way, and Dark Chaos Shuffle does, for a given value of cheesy. Precocious Apprentice is a neat idea though, I could definitely see the character going for that coupled with a relevant reserve feat for 2d6 damage or similar all day long.


I take it the Druid and Cleric will be 'tanks' once they get Wild Shape and DMM: Persist Divine Power respectively?



Here's an idea for a character... an Emo Goth Dread Necromancer. Make sure he/she has plenty of cosmetics on hand. Why? Disposable minions. Meat shields and speed bumps to keep the rest of the party not engaged for that one round necessary to press Win buttons. He/she can also optimize the Fear Aura from level 5, so that by level 12, any opponent within 30' of her simply panics and runs. The trick is thus:

First off, Southern Magician (or other way to make spells be considered either arcane or divine)

Second: DMM: Persist Spell

Third: Advanced Learning: Aura of Terror (at level 12)

Fourth: Dread Witch PrC, to affect opponents normally immune to Fear

Fifth: the feat from the Book of Bad Latin to double her fear aura.

Oh, and don't forget Corpsecrafter and Destructive Retribution

While not that great for the main party (they're intentionally Tier 1, they even know their tier), I could see this character as an antagonist. And yeah, the Druid and Cleric will eventually be "tanks", though at the moment the party is tankless except for the animal companion (which I'm strongly considering making a Swindlespitter just to make them even more tankless).


LA0 interpretation of a Blue Erudite!

Why not make the Elf a Dragonborn Fire Elf?

StP is just a little too high for this party, and regular Erudite is a little too low. Plus, who would he replace?

Dragonborn Fire Elves loose the bonus feats, unfortunately, ridding me of an excellently awkward backstory involving loan shark Dweomerkeepers.

[Cofniben]

You are missing a skill monkey, take a Factotum, they are basically a light spell caster, but they can take any skill and pick any spell from any spell list to use as a spell like ability a certain number of times per combat, also there is no definition on combat so you get those spells back when ever you finish combat. They are the best skill monkey you can choose, and everything they have is based off Intelligence, so you only need to boost one stat.

[dextercorvia]

Dragonborn Fire Elves loose the bonus feats, unfortunately, ridding me of an excellently awkward backstory involving loan shark Dweomerkeepers.

See above.

[Analytica]

Some thoughts:

- What about some of the stupider melee cheese? 1d2 crusaders, hulking hurlers and astronomical objects, chuck e cheese running at high speeds...?

- You should include a pair of villains called something like Krank and F, guarding some magical tomes... :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

You are missing a skill monkey, take a Factotum, they are basically a light spell caster, but they can take any skill and pick any spell from any spell list to use as a spell like ability a certain number of times per combat, also there is no definition on combat so you get those spells back when ever you finish combat. They are the best skill monkey you can choose, and everything they have is based off Intelligence, so you only need to boost one stat.

Well Artificers do get trapfinding, and a Cloistered Cleric (and really, why would you not be a Cloistered Cleric if you were a shortsighted optimizer?) gets plenty of skill points. I think the party's set for skills.


See above.

Ah, an interesting point. While that is a possibility, I'd like this guy to be the straight man of the group for the most part. Long-suffering party leader etc. Dragonborn is a little too out-there for that, and the benefits are pretty minor for this type of character.

On the other hand, this does give me another idea about that world: there would be a lot of Dragonborn around.


Some thoughts:

- What about some of the stupider melee cheese? 1d2 crusaders, hulking hurlers and astronomical objects, chuck e cheese running at high speeds...?

- You should include a pair of villains called something like Krank and F, guarding some magical tomes... :smallbiggrin:

The stupider melee cheese will definitely be around in the form of supporting characters. An adorable 1d2 crusader who adds a drill pendant to his small unarmed strike may make an appearance.

[Taelas]

Incantatrix also gives up schools, though, so if that's an issue, you might want to make it a different prestige class--like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

You could make the Cleric a Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar (possibly planning a 3-dip into Prestige Paladin for lotsa Paladin goodies (and more turn attempts) in exchange for 1 level of spellcasting). You could make him a Cloistered Cleric too (and let the Paladin dip pick up proficiencies as well), for Knowledge Devotion.

[Analytica]

Incantatrix also gives up schools, though, so if that's an issue, you might want to make it a different prestige class--like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.


Just ignore some of the prerequisites for the feats that give you the schools back, then. Or lose Evocation. :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

StP is too high, but not Artificer? Hmm... I was going to suggest making him a Psionic Artificer so they have some psionics in there too, but then you would have to bar psionics from getting access to spells for crafting (through StP Erudite and Dragon magazine stuff).

Also, have one get a Truenamer sidekick. I have more suggestions with regards to that, but I'll see what you think of that. :smallamused:

[Cog]

...hulking hurlers and astronomical objects...
Hulking Hurlers are in the employ of Mechanus. Newton's laws aren't needed; the HH legion simply keeps chucking the stars and planets in whichever direction's needed.

[Arbane]

Hulking Hurlers are in the employ of Mechanus. Newton's laws aren't needed; the HH legion simply keeps chucking the stars and planets in whichever direction's needed.

They leap to the planet's surface, do a handstand, and throw it?

[Urpriest]

StP is too high, but not Artificer? Hmm... I was going to suggest making him a Psionic Artificer so they have some psionics in there too, but then you would have to bar psionics from getting access to spells for crafting (through StP Erudite and Dragon magazine stuff).

Also, have one get a Truenamer sidekick. I have more suggestions with regards to that, but I'll see what you think of that. :smallamused:

Artificer is a bit lower, and this one is the least optimized of the party anyway. I'd like to avoid very much psionics with the core group, if only because it's got a somewhat exotic feel. I could definitely see them with a psionic Linear Guild equivalent, though. Maybe an StP Erudite, Psionic Artificer, Ardent who abuses Substitute Powers to a ridiculously implausible extent, and Psion of some description (Telepath Thrallherd maybe).

What would you be planning for the Truenamer, may I ask?


Incantatrix also gives up schools, though, so if that's an issue, you might want to make it a different prestige class--like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

You could make the Cleric a Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar (possibly planning a 3-dip into Prestige Paladin for lotsa Paladin goodies (and more turn attempts) in exchange for 1 level of spellcasting). You could make him a Cloistered Cleric too (and let the Paladin dip pick up proficiencies as well), for Knowledge Devotion.

Giving up the additional school could be a viable source of angst at any rate, when it comes time to choose. It's just significantly better than the 2-3 schools lost from Specializing. Also, as said, Evocation.

The thing about Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar is that while it's not a bad choice for a Cleric, it's basically all stat boosts, and just +2 at that. While I could see going for the +6 stat boosts from AnthroBat, I feel like these guys would feel like that sort of race wouldn't be all that good a trade for the human bonus feat. I'd rather the race give more interesting gimmicks. Even if the +2 is useful at low levels, in these guys' views they won't be low level for long.

[Yora]

The druid should be single class without any multiclassing. And then be totaly smug about it. :smallamused:

[Endarire]

I thought StP Erudite was in addition. I also hoped for a Dragonborn Warforged Artificer. Self-healing, yo!

Also, Anthro Bat Druid5/Planar Shepherd of Dal Quor10/Own the Universe!

LA0 Aasimar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) Cleric is handy for polymorph since he's still a Native Outsider.

[RaggedAngel]

The druid should be single class without any multiclassing. And then be totaly smug about it. :smallamused:

Hm. That depends if you classify Planar Shepherd as TO; I do, unless they choose a plane that has nothing to do with the flow of time.

And, really, who goes Planar Shepherd without the intention of messing with the flow of time?

[Endarire]

Depending on how you interpret secret page, you may have a source of free Wizard spells at each casting, even ones you don't know.

[Morph Bark]

Warforged for the Artificer is of course perfect. Have him hail from a city where the primary use for Warforged is as Bards playing Lyres of Building (one reason Bards are allowed to exist in a Tippyverse). Considering you wanted to go with Azurin, you could make it a homebrew incarnum-based Warforged instead, depending on how much you want to put homebrew stuff in it for the party and how much you want to have it be about rules-lawyering specifics.

Initiators are allowed to exist primarily for Mountain Hammer, to hollow out mountains and fine-craft caves into perfect living areas.

[Drothmal]

I'm surprised there have been no mention of Kobolds and all the ridiculous dragon like feats (besides Pun pun leading the universe)....

If there are any humans, you could use them for skillmonkeys if you take cosmopolitan (which is a great source of jokes, since they can be holding a drink whenever they use a skill that is usually not a class skill)

Also, how many flaws are you going to allow? Because i can see the casters being slow, murky eyed, non combatant, shaking and reckless, all at the same time, for a ridiculous number of feats at lvl 1

[WinWin]

Jermlaine druid/vermin lord/arcane heirophant. Centre of his own little hivemind.

Alternatively, could go for a half-daelkyr impure prince. Daddy issues and a boatload of venomfire.

As for the cleric. Archer. Worships the god of magic.

[Cog]

There should be an Otyugh Holtel. Depending on the accessibility of wealth loops, for-profit might not make sense, so maybe it's a public service instead?

[erikun]

Have one of the character present themselves as just a "Fighter". He is a standard, spear-wielding, non-optimized fighter who liked jumping on things and stabbing them, and ignores any optimization advice from the rest of the party.

However, he is acutally a Jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious), and all that impressive jumping he does is actually to make diplomancy checks throughout the kingdom. By the end of the story, he has converted every single ruler into one of his allies.

[Prime32]

Initiators are allowed to exist primarily for Mountain Hammer, to hollow out mountains and fine-craft caves into perfect living areas.Also Iron Heart Surge, to destroy suns. :smalltongue:

[Cog]

However, he is acutally a Jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious), and all that impressive jumping he does is actually to make diplomancy checks throughout the kingdom. By the end of the story, he has converted every single ruler into one of his allies.
Fighter doesn't get the Wild Shape ability that's relied on, though. Paladin and Ranger can pick up a very limited form with Initiate of Horus-Re. They might otherwise still fit the role, as long as they aren't Mystic + Sword of the Arcane Order types.

[erikun]

Fighter doesn't get the Wild Shape ability that's relied on, though. Paladin and Ranger can pick up a very limited form with Initiate of Horus-Re. They might otherwise still fit the role, as long as they aren't Mystic + Sword of the Arcane Order types.
The point being that he refers to himself as a fighter, never does anything overtly magical, and doesn't seem to do anything beyond melee combat. The rest of the party just treats him as "suicidally unoptimized", assuming he's just a Fighter/Samurai or something equally as poor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Alternately, as antagonists, you might also have things like Hellfire Warlocks, Intimidation CW Samurai, and the like... still 'optimized', but still... well... not Tier 1.

[Draz74]

I vote in favor of the AnthroBat. If you want an Illumian, just make it the Cleric.

* * *

Don't forget about the government's PR specialist Diplomancers.

Most of them are Half-Elf Bard 1 / Binder 1 / Warlock 1 / Telepath 1 / Marshal 1 builds or somesuch, but a few of them, who specialize in talking to creatures with no language, are high-level pure Monks. They ignore their underpowered class features other than Tongue of the Sun and Moon, and where they came from and how they survived low levels is a government secret that aggravates the PCs to no end.

On their days off, these Monk agents get together for tea with the 15th-level pure Fighter gladiators, whose existence the government subsidizes purely for the purpose of ensuring that material components for the Heroics spell exist.


There should be an Otyugh Holtel. Depending on the accessibility of wealth loops, for-profit might not make sense, so maybe it's a public service instead?

This is made of win.


Initiators are allowed to exist primarily for Mountain Hammer, to hollow out mountains and fine-craft caves into perfect living areas.

But that's what Dominated Beholders are for ...

[Urpriest]

I had thought of the monks, but I hadn't realized that this government would have a use for high-level fighters...hmm, that is fun indeed.

And Dominated Beholders, why not Beholder Mages? Dweomerkeeper and Dweomerkeeper can help you get in to that class, as long as you keep up with the 30% interest.

Otyugh hotel, yes! A perfect place for our aspiring Incantatrix to try to get into.

"Why am I paying so much to sit in a fetid hole?"

"Builds character."

[Flame of Anor]

Consider for sanity's sake how you are going to find LEGO figures for these weird races.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Consider for sanity's sake how you are going to find LEGO figures for these weird races.

I hear a little paint and modelling clay can do wonders for that stuff.

I am thinking that one of the antagonist can be a Hood, preferably a Trancer I guess.

[Urpriest]

Consider for sanity's sake how you are going to find LEGO figures for these weird races.

Hmm, while there are definitely ways to do it (I'm sure Mr. IrregularWebcomic could manage), this may be an indication that I need to go the artist route. Luckily this forum is crawling with underutilized artists. I just need to find one who will respond properly to promises of internet fame and glory.


I hear a little paint and modelling clay can do wonders for that stuff.

I am thinking that one of the antagonist can be a Hood, preferably a Trancer I guess.

A Hood is another good idea. Perhaps he should pop up constantly whenever his name is mentioned, maybe accompanied by a carnivorous Pixie...:smallwink:

[Taelas]

Giving up the additional school could be a viable source of angst at any rate, when it comes time to choose. It's just significantly better than the 2-3 schools lost from Specializing. Also, as said, Evocation.
Granted.


The thing about Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar is that while it's not a bad choice for a Cleric, it's basically all stat boosts, and just +2 at that. While I could see going for the +6 stat boosts from AnthroBat, I feel like these guys would feel like that sort of race wouldn't be all that good a trade for the human bonus feat. I'd rather the race give more interesting gimmicks. Even if the +2 is useful at low levels, in these guys' views they won't be low level for long.

Anthropomorphic Bat isn't really great for a Cleric, though, what with the Str and Cha penalties and the Small size. It's brilliant for Druids, but not so much for Clerics... at least to my knowledge. I could be missing something obvious, of course. (Archer Clerics, for example, are completely outside my purview, and it might work there.)

Illumian would probably be a decent choice too, but I know nothing about 'em.

[Morph Bark]

in these guys' views they won't be low level for long.

20th level in 134 days? :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

Granted.



Anthropomorphic Bat isn't really great for a Cleric, though, what with the Str and Cha penalties and the Small size. It's brilliant for Druids, but not so much for Clerics... at least to my knowledge. I could be missing something obvious, of course. (Archer Clerics, for example, are completely outside my purview, and it might work there.)

Illumian would probably be a decent choice too, but I know nothing about 'em.

I wasn't really thinking of AnthroBat for the Cleric, more just thinking of it as the sort of thing that would motivate these guys to give up a bonus feat.

By the way, question for others: if I were to attempt to solicit an artist for this, should I do so on the Webcomics forum? Fancomics? Arts&Crafts?

[Coidzor]

By the way, question for others: if I were to attempt to solicit an artist for this, should I do so on the Webcomics forum? Fancomics? Arts&Crafts?

I recommend arts and crafts, myself. Though fancomics might also be appropriate. Pretty sure webcomics is outsies though.

Hmm. wasn't there some way that it was discussed that one could permanently change what race creatures were for maximum intellect in one of the incarnations of the Tippyverse?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Regarding skills: I honesty think the funniest thing you can do with skills in a PO/TO world is have an entirely high-op group of tier 1 characters geared to the teeth (at least by WBL) who are unable to do the simplest of tasks, like open a locked door (because what high-op Wizard prepares knock? Seriously). This forces the Wizard to go overboard in his spontaneous casting shenanigans, abusing all the tricks in the book (such as Spontaneous Divination and the like) and expending a considerable amount of WBL to avoid having to prepare knock to unlock doors, because that is the high-op solution to getting through a door (a lockpick, or a well-applied Strength check, are out of the picture).

For added effect, have said arc take a half-dozen strips--beginning, and ending, with the unlocking of the door.

It would also be neat to see a character who undergoes retraining shenanigans every level to allow them to undertake an elaborate series of one-level dips in order to max out a particular trait or skill without keeping a bunch of crappy feats (consider the Rogue's Sneak Attack feature for this; there's a thread out there that has a list of all Sneak Attack PrCs, from which you can get a complete list of classes that give Sneak Attack damage from a one-level dip. Enter the 18d6 Sneak Attack supporting character!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Regarding skills: I honesty think the funniest thing you can do with skills in a PO/TO world is have an entirely high-op group of tier 1 characters geared to the teeth (at least by WBL) who are unable to do the simplest of tasks, like open a locked door (because what high-op Wizard prepares knock? Seriously). This forces the Wizard to go overboard in his spontaneous casting shenanigans, abusing all the tricks in the book (such as Spontaneous Divination and the like) and expending a considerable amount of WBL to avoid having to prepare knock to unlock doors, because that is the high-op solution to getting through a door (a lockpick, or a well-applied Strength check, are out of the picture).

For added effect, have said arc take a half-dozen strips--beginning, and ending, with the unlocking of the door.

It would also be neat to see a character who undergoes retraining shenanigans every level to allow them to undertake an elaborate series of one-level dips in order to max out a particular trait or skill without keeping a bunch of crappy feats (consider the Rogue's Sneak Attack feature for this; there's a thread out there that has a list of all Sneak Attack PrCs, from which you can get a complete list of classes that give Sneak Attack damage from a one-level dip. Enter the 18d6 Sneak Attack supporting character!

The problem is that retraining is extremely easy for a Tier 1 class, Limited Wish can replicate Psionic Reformation rendering the whole arc all but useless. Also Knock is a low level spell so a wand is quite cheap.

Good idea though.

[Urpriest]

The problem is that retraining is extremely easy for a Tier 1 class, Limited Wish can replicate Psionic Reformation rendering the whole arc all but useless. Also Knock is a low level spell so a wand is quite cheap.

Good idea though.

Don't forget, these guys are level 1. I could easily see opening a door being quite tricky for them, unless there's an Infusion that does it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh right... forgot about that... perhaps dragging the arc a bit and then someone (preferably the Artificer) "Wait guys, I just remembered I bought this scroll/partially charged wand/etc of knock!"

[Taelas]

It would also be neat to see a character who undergoes retraining shenanigans every level to allow them to undertake an elaborate series of one-level dips in order to max out a particular trait or skill without keeping a bunch of crappy feats (consider the Rogue's Sneak Attack feature for this; there's a thread out there that has a list of all Sneak Attack PrCs, from which you can get a complete list of classes that give Sneak Attack damage from a one-level dip. Enter the 18d6 Sneak Attack supporting character!

Losing prerequisites cause you to lose class features, so not gonna work.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Don't forget, these guys are level 1. I could easily see opening a door being quite tricky for them, unless there's an Infusion that does it.

The best part of that is, you'd be hard-pressed to find a PO/TO character who bothers to involve skills in the process, unless it's something that's abusable/optimizable (like UMD, Intimidate and Diplomacy), so it's not impossible for an entire group of high-op PCs without a skill monkey to overlook something as simple as a locked door.

Of course, scrolls of knock are available, but it just might add to the hilarity if the Wizard takes the scroll, goes on a retraining quest to stack on flaws, take Precocious Apprentice (knock) and Spontaneous Divination shenanigans, scribes it, and then comes back to unlock the door, or something to that extent. The more unnecessarily convoluted "high-op" solution, the better!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Losing prerequisites cause you to lose class features, so not gonna work.

Then make that the character's undoing. Somebody points out that it doesn't work, they protest that some obscure household allows it, are defeated by the Rules Lawyers, and lose all their ill-gotten class features.

[Cog]

Losing prerequisites cause you to lose class features, so not gonna work.
Only for the CArc and CWar classes*. As long as you keep those prerequisites or avoid those classes entirely, you're (technically) fine.

*Out of the common books. I haven't checked the wording in every splat I've looked at...

[Endarire]

Since you're going Elven Generalist, have him also be a Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) at no extra charge!

By RAW, Artificers also have Open Lock and Disable Device as class skills. Locks and traps should be no problem!

How accessible will psychic reformation be for the general populace?

[Jack_Simth]

While I could see going for the +6 stat boosts from AnthroBat, I feel like these guys would feel like that sort of race wouldn't be all that good a trade for the human bonus feat. I'd rather the race give more interesting gimmicks.... gimmicks? The Anthropormorphic bat gets:

+6 Wis
Flight (although not Good manueverability, and not very fast)
Darkvision
An unusual type

It's very handy at 1st level. At higher levels, the Darkvision saves you an item slot, and the +6 Wis stays useful.

[Taelas]

Only for the CArc and CWar classes*. As long as you keep those prerequisites or avoid those classes entirely, you're (technically) fine.

*Out of the common books. I haven't checked the wording in every splat I've looked at...

Neither book specify that it only counts for those books. It is entirely reasonable and within RAW for a GM to enforce it on all prestige classes.

[Cog]

...within RAW for a GM to enforce it on all prestige classes.
No, it isn't, as per the primary source rules. The DMG introduced prestige classes, and it contains no such language. CArc and CWar both contain language about the prestige classes "in this book" when they could have spoken in more general terms.

As for whether it's reasonable, I won't dispute that; there are cases where it might be, and cases where it might not be, and it's entirely dependent on the group in question.

[Morph Bark]

The unoptimized rival party (I imagine there might be several, one being the optimized psionic one mentioned prior) could eventually get a power boost by ending up in a parallel universe where they gain the power to go Gestalt.

However, they botch it and Gestalt with classes just as useless (or limited in use and not that high in Tier still, like Spellthief).

[Jack_Simth]

Neither book specify that it only counts for those books. It is entirely reasonable and within RAW for a GM to enforce it on all prestige classes.
Yes and no.

In 3.0, the DMG included the clause about what happens to PrC benefits when you lose the requirements. The blurbs in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior are word-for-word identical to the blurb to that effect in the 3.0 DMG. However, that blurb was removed from the 3.5 DMG. Additionally, it causes some problems - most notably for the Dragon Disciple-10, or the Ur-Priest-1, both of whom have a little issue in that they no longer meet the requirements for the respective PrC's.

So while no, for the most party they don't specifically say they only apply to those books... it looks much more like an editing error than anything else. Plus, the primary source rule says the DMG rules - which doesn't include that blurb.

[Urpriest]

Since you're going Elven Generalist, have him also be a Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) at no extra charge!

By RAW, Artificers also have Open Lock and Disable Device as class skills. Locks and traps should be no problem!

How accessible will psychic reformation be for the general populace?

Domain Wizard on top of Elven Generalist is just on the right side of cheesy I'd say! Which domain would you recommend? I'm thinking Transmutation to fit with the guy's caterpillar familiar.

Artificers can indeed take ranks in Disable Device and Open Lock, but while Disable Device at least has several uses, I could easily see the guy completely neglecting Open Lock, believing it to have too narrow a focus.

Psychic Reformation, like Dark Chaos Shuffle, will be the kind of thing the characters can obtain by exploitative and bullying higher level characters. In the case of Psychic Reformation, it might be a good opportunity to introduce them to the psychic rival party.


... gimmicks? The Anthropormorphic bat gets:

+6 Wis
Flight (although not Good manueverability, and not very fast)
Darkvision
An unusual type

It's very handy at 1st level. At higher levels, the Darkvision saves you an item slot, and the +6 Wis stays useful.

Yes, the AnthroBat has its share of gimmicks. I was pointing out that the Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar by contrast really doesn't.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If the party is optimized, the encounters should be as well. I suggest Kobold shenanigans at low levels, the dreaded Adamantine Horror around level 8, and as a comic capstone, the Emerald Legion.

Edit: That Damn Crab could potentially make multiple appearances in different CR'd forms.

[Midnight_v]

The point being that he refers to himself as a fighter, never does anything overtly magical, and doesn't seem to do anything beyond melee combat. The rest of the party just treats him as "suicidally unoptimized", assuming he's just a Fighter/Samurai or something equally as poor.

I like this rather alot.
as well as this:
Some thoughts:


- What about some of the stupider melee cheese? 1d2 crusaders, hulking hurlers and astronomical objects, chuck e cheese running at high speeds...?

- You should include a pair of villains called something like Krank and F, guarding some magical tomes... :smallbiggrin:
Right but Remember their D&D names are "The Wish" and "The Word" ...
(somebody's forgotten the optimization history well enough)
So that would mean "F, The word" and "Krank, the Wish"

As far as other optimization favorites... "Caelics "The boogeyman" and Shakuvm's "The Black Octopus" are pretty awesome for villans. Or mentioned "things in the world"

[Morph Bark]

I like this rather alot.
as well as this:
Some thoughts:


Right but Remember their D&D names are "The Wish" and "The Word" ...
(somebody's forgotten the optimization history well enough)
So that would mean "F, The word" and "Krank, the Wish"

As far as other optimization favorites... "Caelics "The boogeyman" and Shakuvm's "The Black Octopus" are pretty awesome for villans. Or mentioned "things in the world"

The F-Word and Wishkranker? :smalltongue:

[sreservoir]

no chance of acorn hathrans and dweomerkeepers abusing supernatural spell?

[Urpriest]

no chance of acorn hathrans and dweomerkeepers abusing supernatural spell?

Oh both will be common. The Cleric probably aspires to be a Dweomerkeeper some day, while the Wizard got his Dark Chaos Shuffle from a pair of Dweomerkeeper loan sharks. And Hathrans will probably be all over the place since they're the only people who can stand up to Red Wizards.

[Draz74]

You can reference popular builds from the Forums as individuals. Haberdash is a slightly pitiable folk hero (being a mere Tier 3). The lead character was originally put in contact with his loan sharks by Aunt Cindy -- who is either his role model or a rival whom he dreams of someday surpassing.


Artificers can indeed take ranks in Disable Device and Open Lock, but while Disable Device at least has several uses, I could easily see the guy completely neglecting Open Lock, believing it to have too narrow a focus.
Yeah, but it's silly not to take one rank in it, which (along with masterwork thieves' tools and Taking 20) lets you get through at least some locks just fine.


If the party is optimized, the encounters should be as well. I suggest Kobold shenanigans at low levels, the dreaded Adamantine Horror around level 8, and as a comic capstone, the Emerald Legion.

Edit: That Damn Crab could potentially make multiple appearances in different CR'd forms.

Yes! 4th-level Kobold Adepts should be the world's most common monster. Followed closely by Shadows, then Allips and TDCrabs.

[Taelas]

No, it isn't, as per the primary source rules. The DMG introduced prestige classes, and it contains no such language. CArc and CWar both contain language about the prestige classes "in this book" when they could have spoken in more general terms.
They speak in entirely general terms regarding the subject in question.

There is also no conflict.


Should a character find herself in a position (because of changed alignment, lost levels, or the like) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class.


Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.

[Urpriest]

Wasn't Cindy supposed to be mass-producible from six year old elves via Mindrape? I was thinking of having the world's kobold overlords have a stable of Cindies, and of the lead character as being ineligible for the Cindy program (probably due to either being male or not being blonde, with the latter being funnier but perhaps less accurate), and thus envious of their power.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, but it's silly not to take one rank in it, which (along with masterwork thieves' tools and Taking 20) lets you get through at least some locks just fine.

Correct! It's silly.

Hence, the webcomic suggestion.

[Taelas]

I don't think I've heard of Cindy. Could someone provide a link?

[Coidzor]

I don't think I've heard of Cindy. Could someone provide a link?

Sheet. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=5890)

Not many of the debut threads still around though, from what I've gathered.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC the creator of cindy (was it Tippy? I can't remember) guarded her almost zealously for a long time, so that makes it a bit difficult to get info of them.

[Endarire]

Shining South has the Halruaan Elder for +0 metamagic and Circle Magic.

Also, what about Earth Node magic and metamagic reducers?

Astral Construct op needs inclusion! Get L9 ACs at char level 9ish.

Add PP recharge and synchronicity shuffles.

[Flame of Anor]

That Damn Crab could potentially make multiple appearances in different CR'd forms.

That Damn Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Damn Crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3227211#post3227211)

[Draz74]

Astral Construct op needs inclusion! Get L9 ACs at char level 9ish.

Meh, I think the pets of Bubs the Commoner (ECL 5) can overrun L9 ACs with little difficulty.

[Endarire]

Any updates on this wonderful-seeming project?

[Urpriest]

I completely lost track of it actually. I'm not sure I'll have the time to make a functioning webcomic, really, and I started to doubt whether I could get an artist to illustrate it.

[Jack_Simth]

I completely lost track of it actually. I'm not sure I'll have the time to make a functioning webcomic, really, and I started to doubt whether I could get an artist to illustrate it.
Well, you could render it. Pick up a game - Neverwinter Knights, maybe - set up a few NPC's, and take screenshots. You could pick up Daz Studio 3d. I think there was also an option like that in half-life when you get into the editor....

[charcoalninja]

I completely lost track of it actually. I'm not sure I'll have the time to make a functioning webcomic, really, and I started to doubt whether I could get an artist to illustrate it.

Honestly if done right this could be funny as hell and thoroughly awesome. If you are serious about this, I offer my services as an artist. Here are a few images I've done just to show that I actually do know how to hold a pencil lol.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/Charcoalninja/Zeeyahlaweb-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/Charcoalninja/colinshorsecopy.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/Charcoalninja/xavimcolor.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/Charcoalninja/slmbr4copy.jpg

They're some older pictures to be sure, I've gotten married and spent more time with my military service than my art, but times are changing and I'd be very interested in this opportunity if you enjoy my style.

PM me or email at: [email protected] if you like what you see, or hell we can keep talking in this thread if we want.