Help with polymorph

[AppleChips]

My party is currently working its way through the temple of tiamat to prevent the summoning of demons which will take over the world, etc. My problem is my wizard has nearly exhausted all of his spells, and with the oncoming doom has no time to take a nap and get more spells. Of note, I have a few magic missiles, one invisibility, one fly and a polymorph. Now, I hear tell that polymorph is a really useful spell, but my party couldn't decide on how to use it. I'm CL 9 with 9 HD, and the party has a paladin, rogue, ninja and sorcerer, all level 9 I think. How should I best use it? I noticed that a few wyrmling dragons are under 9 HD, and some other monsters have pretty high strength, but other than that I have nothing.

On another note, does magic missile still do damage to things with DR 5/fire, cold etc.? I managed to convince the DM that force isn't effected by DR, but I'm pretty sure I was wrong.

[kharmakazy]

LoL. Spells are not effected by DR ever unless they say they are. Magic missiles especially.

[kharmakazy]

Also: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872134/The_Complete_Polymorph_Thread_3.5



Level 9



Behir: Huge, NA +11, Str 26, Dex 13, Con 21; MM/SRD
Attack: Bite +15 melee (2d4+12)
Benefits: Improved Grab (ex), Constrict (Ex) 2d8+8 damage, Can make 6 rake attacks as well. Rake (Ex) 6 claws +15 melee (1d4+4)

Darktentacles: Large, Reach 15 ft; NA +7; Str 19; Dex 15; Con 17; MM2 p.54
Attack: 12 slames +9 melee (1d4+4) or 12 light weapons
Benefits: Improved Grab (ex) and Constrict (ex): 2d6+6

Hydra (9 heads): Huge, Reach 10 ft; NA +10; Str 21; Dex 12; Con 20; MM/SRD
Attack: 9 bites +13 melee (1d10+5)
Benefits: Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

Naga, Dark: Large, NA +3, Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14; MM/SRD
Attack: Sting +7 melee (2d4+2 plus poison) and bite +2 melee (1d4+1)
Benefit: Poison (Ex) Injury, Fortitude DC 16 or nightmare-haunted sleep for 2d4 minutes.

Naga, Spirit: Large, NA +6, Str 18, Dex 13, Con 18; MM/SRD
Attack: Bite +9 melee (2d6+6 plus poison)
Benefit: Poison (Ex) Injury, Fortitude DC 18, initial and secondary damage 1d8 Con

[AppleChips]

Wow, why didn't I know that. So a fireball would still do full damage on something with DR 5/acid?

Thanks a lot. I think a while ago we did polymorph the paladin into a hydra, but it wasn't particularly effective because we were fighting a dragon. Doesn't seem so bad against generic flunkies though!

[kharmakazy]

Also, if you get there and the portal or whatever is substantially made of metal...




Rust Monster: 5 HD, Medium, NA +5, Special Attacks: Rust
Rust (Ex)
A rust monster that makes a successful touch attack with its antennae causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. The touch can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly.


I'm pretty sure that works.

[kharmakazy]

Wow, why didn't I know that. So a fireball would still do full damage on something with DR 5/acid?



Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

DR/Acid? who has that?

[erikun]

Force effects are not affected by DR. The only things that would apply are Force Resistance and Force Immunity, much like the only things that affect fire effects are Fire Resistance and Fire Immunity.

As for what to polymorph into, what are you facing? You don't get any Supernatural or Spell-Like abilities from the new form, so you'll likely be using it for combat or for getting away. If you know what you're fighting, turning into something immune would be a good idea - a Red Dragon for immunity to fire, for example.

You might also consider polymorphing one of the other party members, who can be more beneficial in combat, and just staying out of it. Turning the Paladin into something huge with reach, or the ninja into something with good hide/invisiblity, would likely be helpful.

Or turn into something big and fast, and run away with everyone on your back.

[kharmakazy]

Force effects are not affected by DR. The only things that would apply are Force Resistance and Force Immunity, much like the only things that affect fire effects are Fire Resistance and Fire Immunity.

As for what to polymorph into, what are you facing? You don't get any Supernatural or Spell-Like abilities from the new form, so you'll likely be using it for combat or for getting away. If you know what you're fighting, turning into something immune would be a good idea - a Red Dragon for immunity to fire, for example.

You might also consider polymorphing one of the other party members, who can be more beneficial in combat, and just staying out of it. Turning the Paladin into something huge with reach, or the ninja into something with good hide/invisiblity, would likely be helpful.

Or turn into something big and fast, and run away with everyone on your back.

Nah. If it's a combat scenario hes best polymorphing himself as he would get much more use out if it than most of the rest of the party. At least that way he can get his own licks in.

[Anxe]

Magic Missile does bypass DR and Energy Resistance.

I've always thought Troll was a decent selection for polymorph. Large size, lots of Strength, and a Natural Armor. You don't get the Regen though. Troll would probably be better than a wyrmling because you'd keep your gear.

[kharmakazy]

heh.

If you want to morph the rogue you can't go wrong with


Will-O’-Wisp: 9 HD, Small, Fly 50 (perfect), Str 1, Dex 29, Con 10
Normaly you do not gain Special Abilities of a creature, however, you do gain abilities that are 'natural abilities'
Natural Invisibility (Ex)
A startled or frightened will-o’-wisp can extinguish its glow, effectively becoming invisible as the spell.

Can't hurt your AC either. :smallwink:

[kharmakazy]

Also, Cave troll beats troll.

[AppleChips]

Well the DR/acid just was a random example that came to mind. What I was wondering was if elemental spells bypassed DR regardless of the DRs type, like Fireball vs. DR/electricity, etc. You're answers make it appear to be yes.

Depending on how you read it, it looks like the Will-O’-Wisp's natural invisibility may only apply if startled of frightened. I guess I could choose to interpret it as fluff though.

Edit: DMG says "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.

[kharmakazy]

DR ONLY ever applies to weapons and natural attacks. (and a handful of other things that Specify that DR applies) So there is no DR/acid

[kharmakazy]

Depending on how you read it, it looks like the Will-O’-Wisp's natural invisibility may only apply if startled of frightened. I guess I could choose to interpret it as fluff though

Fluff my butt! If you werent scared to be facing the legions of hell you wouldn't be changing into a willowisp to begin with!

While frightened may be an actual condition, I don't believe "startled" is listed anywhere.

[AppleChips]

Okay, I'll go tell my DM to give me back my magic missile since the lightning bolt should have killed them anyway. Now that I understand DR more, it seems a lot more useless.

[robvile]

If you're going to use polymorph a lot, or get the most out of it, it might be a good idea to kill a feat with "assume supernatural ability" if I remember correctly, but I can't think of the book its out of..

all in all, it allows you to assume the supernatural ability of the creature you're polymorphing into - or something close to that effect. I've had the feat before.

[erikun]

Well the DR/acid just was a random example that came to mind. What I was wondering was if elemental spells bypassed DR regardless of the DRs type, like Fireball vs. DR/electricity, etc. You're answers make it appear to be yes.
The problem is that there is no "DR/electricity", which is why there is such a confusion. DR only applies to physical blows, and applies to everything but what is listed after the slash: DR 5/Silver reduces all damage by 5 unless the weapon is silver.

Energy types always ignore DR. When an energy type is resisted, it isn't listed as "DR/Fire". There is no such thing as DR/Fire. There is a "Resistance to Fire 20", which reduces the amount of damage dealt by fire each round by 20. (Important distinction: Damage Reduction applies to each hit, Resistance applies to all the damage each round) Resistance to Fire 20 would only apply to fire damage, and doesn't apply to acid or electricity damage.

You could, of course, have a monster with "Resistance to Fire 20, Acid 20, and Electricity 20" though. Each resistance would act as seperate abilities, meaning it would ignore the first 20 points of fire damage a round, the first 20 points of acid damage, and the first 20 points of electricity damage as well. If it took 60 points of fire damage in a round, though, it would only ignore 20 points of that.

[kharmakazy]

Okay, I'll go tell my DM to give me back my magic missile since the lightning bolt should have killed them anyway. Now that I understand DR more, it seems a lot more useless.

No it's very useful, just not against wizards. DR 8/ Adamantine has kept me alive in many many games.

[Aharon]

The Will-O-Wisp Natural invisibility is an ability listed under special qualities, which are not transferred. Wether it's called natural or not doesn't matter, unfortunately. It's still an ok form for its fly speed and size, but there are better things.

[AppleChips]

The problem is that there is no "DR/electricity", which is why there is such a confusion. DR only applies to physical blows, and applies to everything but what is listed after the slash: DR 5/Silver reduces all damage by 5 unless the weapon is silver.

Ah, okay, I was confusing myself. I understand the mechanics of energy resistance, I just had a slip-up there.

When polymorphing into a creature, how do you modify its attacks? Would a +6 BA guy turning into a Night Hag with Bite +12 melee (2d6+6 plus disease) make a +18 bite?

[Cofniben]

Thanks a lot. I think a while ago we did polymorph the paladin into a hydra, but it wasn't particularly effective because we were fighting a dragon. Doesn't seem so bad against generic flunkies though!

You choose the wrong character to polymorph into a Hydra. You ether Polymorph yourself in order to help in the fight/regain HP if you are in bad shape, or the Rogue so then each of the heads can get sneak attack damage, that's using polymorph well.

[Boci]

When polymorphing into a creature, how do you modify its attacks? Would a +6 BA guy turning into a Night Hag with Bite +12 melee (2d6+6 plus disease) make a +18 bite?

No, it would actually be +10, since his BAB of +6 replaces the night hag's +8.

Also, night hag's an outsider, so you cannoy polymorph into them by default.

[kharmakazy]

The Will-O-Wisp Natural invisibility is an ability listed under special qualities, which are not transferred. Wether it's called natural or not doesn't matter, unfortunately. It's still an ok form for its fly speed and size, but there are better things.

There is some debate as to whether it works. It IS listed it in pretty much every polymorph index thread.

[AppleChips]

You choose the wrong character to polymorph into a Hydra. You ether Polymorph yourself in order to help in the fight/regain HP if you are in bad shape, or the Rogue so then each of the heads can get sneak attack damage, that's using polymorph well.

Yes, now that I understand the mechanic better, I realize it's better to create a second fighter than barely improve another one. HP is regained equal to character level, right? Until now, I've been a badly played caster who mostly just casted fireball, etc., but after a good hard look at lower leveled spells, I realize how much more effective I can/could've been.

[Aharon]

@kharmakazy
It seems pretty clear cut to me. Special Quality remains Special Quality, no matter how it's called.

@AppleChips
Well, you obviously already know some useful spells, i.e. Polymorph.
Best use of your spells, IMO, would be to use the Polymorph on the Paladin and the Invisible on the rogue. A sneak attacking Hydra is fine, but also Huge, which may not be what you need in a possibly cramped environment.

Instead of the forms mentioned earlier, use one on the Paladin that's humanoid, so he can retain the use of his equipment. Anis Hag is pretty good. Depending on which particular version of polymorph you use, Troll might also be good: Earlier versions changed HP.

[graeylin]

pyro or cryo hydras have served me well in past encounters, if duking it out is needed. Bites, fire, or cold blasts, that many die, something has to hit.

Don't forget, if you have a familiar, share the spell with it, for twice the fun!

[AppleChips]

Would a Share Spelled Polymorph have to turn the familiar into the same thing? Also, familiars have to be within 5 feet to share a spell, so if I turned large, the familiar would be on top of me.

MM doesn't seem to state what kind of attacks cryo and pyrohdyra's breaths are, but I doubt they're useable with polymorph.

@Aharon I think the rogue is already well-stocked with assorted scrolls of invisibility, etc. Now if he was polymorphed AND invisible, 9 separate sneak attacks wouldn't be all that bad.

[graeylin]

You may need to discuss with your DM, but there's no reason two huge dragons can't be within 5 feet of one another. If they can be within 5 miles of each other, they can be within 5 yards of each other, and they can be within 5 feet of each other.

To me, as long as part of my familiar's body is within 5 foot of any part of MY body, we are within 5 foot of each other.

And I believe the hydra's fire and cold are not listed as supernatural abilities, or spells or SLA's, so they should be legal with poly. I could be wrong... often am.

[AppleChips]

Well the problem would be before transformation, not after. My owl's right next to me, we both transform into huge hydras at the same time, and he's right on top of me. I guess he could move off after though.

A dragon's breath weapon is supernatural, I'd think that a hydra's would be too.

[kharmakazy]

Well the problem would be before transformation, not after. My owl's right next to me, we both transform into huge hydras at the same time, and he's right on top of me. I guess he could move off after though.

A dragon's breath weapon is supernatural, I'd think that a hydra's would be too.

No... he stands next to you and you both transform into huge hydras. He is still standing next to you.


x-5ft-x

into

XXX-----XXX
XXX-5ft-XXX
XXX-----XXX

[AppleChips]

I was under the assumption that within 5 ft. meant xx, not x-x. Even so, I guess they would still be right next to each other. I'd still need a lot of room to do that though.

[kharmakazy]

I'm pretty sure it means within 5 feet on each other. 6'? too far. 4'9"? Okay.

[AppleChips]

Well a square is 5 feet, right? So if each character was at the very edge of their square, there could be 5 feet between them, but if one was an inch away from the edge, it would be more than 5 ft. Anyway, I doubt my DM will nitpick that much, so it probably won't matter.

[Flame of Anor]

or the Rogue so then each of the heads can get sneak attack damage,

Wait, don't you lose class features while you're polymorphed?

[Aharon]

@AppleChips
1) Breath weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) are supernatural unless otherwise noted.
2) Your Familiar doesn't have to change into the same form as you do. In fact, a strict reading of the rules suggests it likely can't:

Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) has the clause "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size."

Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) notes on the size: "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.", but doesn't change above restriction. So your tiny familiar can't change into a huge hydra anyway (neither can you, unless you use enlarge person first to become large, but that's beside the point).

But that is a strict reading of the rules not all groups - and not even all of the Designers - use, so it may not apply for your group. I only mentioned it to show why your familiar doesn't have to assume the same form you do.

BTW, what are your other 1st and 2nd level spells? If I were you, I would probably ask the DM to be allowed to change my memorized spells, seeing how you just realized how some spells are more useful than others...

@Flame of Anor
You don't, it's inherited from Alter Self which also says you don't, IIRC. You may end up in a form where you can't use your class abilities, though - i.e. no spellcasting hydra...

[robvile]

Wait, don't you lose class features while you're polymorphed?

There would be no point of really taking a polymorph anything if you lost class features from one, and didn't gain the SU from the creature your changing into as well..

So, again this would be a good time to mention 'assume supernatural ability' from Savage Species!!

I know that Savage species isn't completely 3.5, or how you guys play it, but we've always done the "if it hasn't been updated, and it works in the mechanics its good."

So, that means ask first and bribe with all ya got.

[AppleChips]

You seem to focus on the hydra, did the rogue do any recon so you know that you will have enough room for that form?

I just like the idea of 9 attacks a round personally. We just reassumed the campaign after about 9 months off so I don't remember the details, but I know of at least one large room which was occupied by a lot of old wyverns the last time we saw it. Hopefully, that's where we'll get to fight.

Yeah, asking to retool my spells known may be a good idea. I have Mage armor, burning hands, erase, magic missile, shocking grasp for 1st level and alter self, invisibility, resist energy, scorching ray and spiderclimb for 2nd. I suppose I have a fair number of non-attack spells, but I don't prepare them a whole lot. I was thinking that, if allowed to re-choose, I may take Tasha's Hideous Laughter, ray of enfeeblement and a few other things. Extended Tashas at level 9 is 18 incapacitated turns if I beat a will save and sr! And although I'm sure there are many better ways to do it, a persisted tasha's will have someone laughing a whole day.

[graeylin]

@AppleChips
1) Breath weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) are supernatural unless otherwise noted.
2) Your Familiar doesn't have to change into the same form as you do. In fact, a strict reading of the rules suggests it likely can't:

Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) has the clause "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size."

Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) notes on the size: "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.", but doesn't change above restriction. So your tiny familiar can't change into a huge hydra anyway (neither can you, unless you use enlarge person first to become large, but that's beside the point).


I need more convincing on the fact that breath weapons are supernatural. Do they stop in an antimagic field? they are not listed as supernatural in the MM. the link used doesn't seem to favor either argument.

Polymorph gives you all extraordinary special attacks possessed...but...not...the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Is a breath weapon an extraordinary special attack? Seems to me it is... arguable, at least.

As for the size... again, a strict reading of the spell says it functions like alter self EXCEPT.. except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

Then, the text of the spell even says you can turn into a dragon. One could argue that the text here, that you can turn into another form of a living creature would allow that form to be any size. Again, debatable with your DM. Or, if you lose that, then how about a baby hydra? If dragons can have wyrmlings, so can hydras.

Your mileage with these arguments may vary.

[NNescio]

I need more convincing on the fact that breath weapons are supernatural. Do they stop in an antimagic field? they are not listed as supernatural in the MM. the link used doesn't seem to favor either argument.

Polymorph gives you all extraordinary special attacks possessed...but...not...the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Is a breath weapon an extraordinary special attack? Seems to me it is... arguable, at least.

As for the size... again, a strict reading of the spell says it functions like alter self EXCEPT.. except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

Then, the text of the spell even says you can turn into a dragon. One could argue that the text here, that you can turn into another form of a living creature would allow that form to be any size. Again, debatable with your DM. Or, if you lose that, then how about a baby hydra? If dragons can have wyrmlings, so can hydras.

Your mileage with these arguments may vary.

See here:


Breath Weapon

A creature attacking with a breath weapon is actually expelling something from its mouth (rather than conjuring it by means of a spell or some other magical effect). Most creatures with breath weapons are limited to a number of uses per day or by a minimum length of time that must pass between uses. Such creatures are usually smart enough to save their breath weapon until they really need it.

- Using a breath weapon is typically a standard action.
- No attack roll is necessary. The breath simply fills its stated area.
- A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy.
- Breath weapons usually allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + ½ breathing creature’s racial HD + breathing creature’s Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save.
- Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted.
- A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted.
- Creatures unable to breathe can still use breath weapons. (The term is something of a misnomer.)

Bolded and underlined part.

The same section can also be found at WoTC glossary for 3.5e. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_breathweapon&alpha=)

See also the Monster Manual, page 69.

[Tvtyrant]

One of the more interesting Polymorph forms is the Xorn; they have highish strength, have a high powered set of naturals and have all EX abilities. The Average Xorn seems the best bang for your buck, doing 24 damage average at level 7 and giving you a good movement ability.

[graeylin]

Thanks Nnescio and Aharon... point and match to you.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Blue Dragon. At 9HD, very young. That's flight, 4d8 breath weapon, +11 bite, claws, wings.

You will need assume supernatural ability (savage species) as mentioned above, but it's worth it to pump out that kind of power.

[Tvtyrant]

Blue Dragon. At 9HD, very young. That's flight, 4d8 breath weapon, +11 bite, claws, wings.

You will need assume supernatural ability (savage species) as mentioned above, but it's worth it to pump out that kind of power.

You can't use the breath weapon, its a SU ability. Shapechange would, but then you could be a Beholder Hive Mother and use 10 rays a round.

[ClothedInVelvet]

You can't use the breath weapon, its a SU ability. Shapechange would, but then you could be a Beholder Hive Mother and use 10 rays a round.

Correct. Until you read the second part: "You will need assume supernatural ability (savage species) as mentioned above, but it's worth it to pump out that kind of power."

At that point, you have the supernatural ability that is the breath weapon. And isn't a Hive Mother closer to 20 HD than 9?

A lot depends on whom the OP is fighting. Flying overhead spewing electrical currents is pretty harmful to a lot of creatures, and will make it impossible for most of them to cause him a problem.

[Tvtyrant]

Correct. Until you read the second part: "You will need assume supernatural ability (savage species) as mentioned above, but it's worth it to pump out that kind of power."

At that point, you have the supernatural ability that is the breath weapon. And isn't a Hive Mother closer to 20 HD than 9?

A lot depends on whom the OP is fighting. Flying overhead spewing electrical currents is pretty harmful to a lot of creatures, and will make it impossible for most of them to cause him a problem.

I missed the second part, so you are correct.

I would still pick a Beholder-Kin myself, like the Overseer. Granted a 2d6 Force spell a turn isn't as good as the breath weapon, but it is immune to saves and resistance.

[AppleChips]

Breath Weapon (Su) is also on page 306 of the Monster Manual.

I don't know if anybody in my group has Savage Species, so I don't think I'll be using assume supernatural ability any time soon. Regardless, all these polymorph suggestions have been really helpful. One last question: The polymorph text says you gain extraordinary special attacks but not extraordinary special qualities. Where is the distinction? The Xorn's all-around vision, darkvision and earth glide are all under special qualities, but it wouldn't make sense to have eyes located around my body and yet not have vision from them.

[Aharon]

@AppleChips
This is just a rules distinction. It's in the game so the spell isn't to powerful. Fluff-wise, you could explain it with the difficulty of adapting to the new body. Sure, it has 360° vision. But you're not used to it, and if you tried to, you couldn't fight effectively, which is why you use the new body similar to the way you would use your own.

[JBento]

If you're going to use Assume SU ability and poly into a dragon, there's a better choice than blue (assuming your opponents aren't mostly constructs or undead):

the lovely, lovely Shadow Dragon - make sure you or a party member have a way to counter/dispel any potential Death Wards that may come your way and spit negative levels at anything that moves