Pathfinder Gish question

[Anderlith]

I was thinking of playing a Magus in Pathfinder but I was wondering if it is worth it. Will I be able to go toe to toe with other classes or be out matched? Which abilities are the best? Which weapons? (I was imagining a glaive wielder) If anyone has experience (or awesome number-crunching ability) I would deeply value your input

[klemdakherzbag]

If you pick up the Dervish Dance feat from Inner Sea World Guide you can fight one handed with a scimitar adding your Dexterity to your scimitar attack and damage. Trade off is that you cannot have anything in your off hand. Spell combat is not so affected and especially useful with an Intensified Shocking Grasp

[Wagadodo]

The thing you have to remember with the Magus is you have to be using a one handed weapon. So two handed weapons are on the window. I haven't had the chance to play one yet, but in theory but they look like they can be fun to play.

It sounds like a high Crit weapon is actually your best bet. Most people are going with scimitars so they can go with two handed attacks. There are two camps either going with a high strength, or a high dex magus using the feat that allows you to use dex for damage while using a scimitar.

I would suggest a couple of links from the Paizo boards that have some good information on builds and a guide.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/waltersGuideToTheMagus

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1DB6sOfbAzFmKVPgcyLWipTVqvWFjfDSv6v_YiGQb5Y w

[Darcand]

I was looking at a high STR Magus with a Falchion then going straight into Eldritch Knight. That might be the best bet. Plus (and I don't have the class infront of me to verify) doesn't the Magus qualify for fighter feats which stacks with the EKs?

[Telasi]

The magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) is a very strong class because of its ability to cast a spell and full attack in the same round, every round. This makes it one of the best canned gish classes in existence, and that's ignoring the plethora of other things it can do. The drawback is that you're more reliant on your spells than, say, an Eldritch Knight, because you're restricted to a single one-handed weapon and no shield without bonus feats, but Dervish Dance cuts down your MAD and makes you entirely Dex-based for melee hit and damage.

All in all, I'd say go for a straight Magus 20 if you're going to try it; the features are just too good to miss, especially since your only applicable PrC is EK. Have a look at the archetypes, too; Bladebound is really fun and gives you a scaling magic weapon as a class feature.

[Wagadodo]

Magus can use a Falchion, but he can't use spell combat while using a Falchion, you would better off using a scimitar. Unless you are planning on never using the spell combat or the spell strike abilities. Then you don't need to worry about that.

My Magus Character I have planned is a Half-elven version with exotic weapon profession racial trait instead of the the skilled trait. Allowing me start off proficient in the Bastard Sword, so it can be weilded one handed right off the go.

[acid_ninja]

A dervish dancing magus is where its at.

1. Scimitar with dervish dance means you only need two stats

2. Scimitar is a high crit weapon

3. Arcane Pool allows you to make your scimitar keen at 5th level

4. Spells with attack rolls (like touch spells - the ones you'll be using) do double damage on a crit.

5. Profit!

At higher levels you can add on feats that either allow you to intiate combat manuevers with a crit or add status effects, thus lowering the enemy's save against your spells.

[Anderlith]

What is dervish dance? & can't the touch spell channeling ability be done with any weapon?

[Ravens_cry]

Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) You get dexterity with dex and damage, but only wth a scimitar and you need a free hand.

[CTrees]

The Magus can also get extremely high burst damage, quite easily. Which can be a downside if you get a DMG thrown at you for killing the BBEG in one round, but...

[Andreaz]

Dervish Dance isn't all that hot for a magus.
If you go that route, you just wasted the armored casting class feature AND lowered your damage output. All for the cost of a feat!

¬.¬

Use high STR, don't waste feats on finesse/dervish and power through a couple levels of AC being a couple points behind. Rejoice in the fact that you:
1) Have more spare feats
2) Do more damage from day 1
3) Will do even more melee damage whenever you deem not to cast a spell (read: attack with the scimitar as if it were a 2h, because you can use 1h weapons with both hands)
4) Get to use all your class features to their maximum potential. Go full plate!

[Ravens_cry]

I hope they make a sorcerer style gish charisma based class that is similar. Or maybe I will home-brew it, changing some of the abilities to a charisma base, giving it the bards spell progression but keeping the magus spell list, giving some more skill points, and adding the social skills as class skills.
I have only seen the beta form however, I don't own the book.

[Curious]

I hope they make a sorcerer style gish charisma based class that is similar. Or maybe I will home-brew it, changing some of the abilities to a charisma base, giving it the bards spell progression but keeping the magus spell list, giving some more skill points, and adding the social skills as class skills.
I have only seen the beta form however, I don't own the book.

It's available for free on the SRD.

[Ravens_cry]

It's available for free on the SRD.

Last time I checked, which was the day before yesterday, they only had the beta version. Checking again, I see they have changed that. Sweet.
@Andreaz:
There is advantages however to the Dervuish Dance feat. One, most games start at level one in my experience. In fact, aside from replacement characters, no campaign in my experience has started higher then level 2. Trying to keep 4 stats, Int, Strength,Dexterity, and Constitution high, needing the Dex for the early armour bonus is MADness. You can't exactly dump Wisdom as failed will saves lead to bad things. Charisma is your only real dump stat. By going DD, you have two 10 stats and a dump stat.
Also, by the time you get to heavy armour use, you probably have a lot of resources invested elsewhere and the extra points provided by plate armour are less useful.

[Andreaz]

There is advantages however to the Dervuish Dance feat. One, most games start at level one in my experience. In fact, aside from replacement characters, no campaign in my experience has started higher then level 2. Trying to keep 4 stats, Int, Strength,Dexterity, and Constitution high, needing the Dex for the early armour bonus is MADness. You can't exactly dump Wisdom as failed will saves lead to bad things. Charisma is your only real dump stat. By going DD, you have two 10 stats and a dump stat.
Also, by the time you get to heavy armour use, you probably have a lot of resources invested elsewhere and the extra points provided by plate armour are less useful.

That's not a big enough selling point to me. You still want nonnegative STR so that you can carry more than your own flesh and a spell component pouch, so DEX is about as dumpable going STR as str is when you go dervish.
And on damage intake: You are also dealing more damage. It's a different way of playing, and one that I don't deem significantly deadlier for the magus because of 2 points of AC.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The easy traveling armor enhancement (assuming 3.P) and a handy haversack pretty much solve any load-carrying problems, but you can't get dervish dance until level 3. (That is, barring multiclass for a bonus feat at level 2, or some shenanigans of which I am not aware.)

That means if you really are starting at level 1 and dumping strength your magus is really bad for two levels. It seems more straightforward to just bump the strength, keep dex around 12, and increase defenses some other way, like through miss chance. Blur and Mirror Image come online at 4th level, which isn't too bad, or wouldn't be if the Magus got more spells/day.

[Ravens_cry]

That's not a big enough selling point to me. You still want nonnegative STR so that you can carry more than your own flesh and a spell component pouch, so DEX is about as dumpable going STR as str is when you go dervish.
And on damage intake: You are also dealing more damage. It's a different way of playing, and one that I don't deem significantly deadlier for the magus because of 2 points of AC.

Each to their own, I find it works for me. 10 Strength on a 33 pounds max light light load for medium creature.
Let me equip mundanely.

2lb spell component pouch
3lb spell book
4lb backpack
ink -
inkpen -
4lb scimitar
3lb 20 arrows
3lb shortbow
15lb leather armour
33 lbs. Hey, right on budget. If I want a chain shirt, 12 strength. The bow and arrow aren't terribly important, especially considering you are also a mage, but I like every character to have a means of fighting at range. If this is less important to you and your DM is stickler for blankets and rations, take those instead. The backpack can also be potentially discarded, but the mental image seems a little funny of carrying all this in your arms. If you do and the bow and arrow, you can have the chain shirt at 10 strength, with room for a pound.

[CapnVan]

What is dervish dance? & can't the touch spell channeling ability be done with any weapon?

Strictly speaking, you can use spellstrike with any weapon. Practically speaking, in order to cast the spell using the spell combat rules, you need one hand free.

[CTrees]

Each to their own, I find it works for me. 10 Strength on a 33 pounds max light light load for medium creature.
Let me equip mundanely.

2lb spell component pouch
3lb spell book
4lb backpack
ink -
inkpen -
4lb scimitar
3lb 20 arrows
3lb shortbow
15lb leather armour
33 lbs. Hey, right on budget. If I want a chain shirt, 12 strength. The bow and arrow aren't terribly important, especially considering you are also a mage, but I like every character to have a means of fighting at range. If this is less important to you and your DM is stickler for blankets and rations, take those instead. The backpack can also be potentially discarded, but the mental image seems a little funny of carrying all this in your arms. If you do and the bow and arrow, you can have the chain shirt at 10 strength, with room for a pound.

You didn't budget any weight for rope!

Otherwise, at level one, sure, but after that... I tend to be paranoid enough to want to everything I might need. Climbing kit, plenty of rope, some manacles, at least one 10' pole, flour, marbles, pitch, misc flasks and pouches, solvents, flint and steel, a shovel, a crowbar, a hacksaw, at least a minor golf bag of different melee weapons and arrow types, utility potions/scrolls/wands, etc. Basically at minimum, for any character, if I can manage it. There's a reason I ALWAYS get a handy haversack, if possible.

[Paul H]

Hi

@ Raven's Cry: There is! It's the Summoner Synthesist Archetype .

You 'wear' your Eidolon. gain its physical stat bonuses, plus it's other abilities. You use the Eidolon's HP as temp HP, etc. And it's a Cha based arcane spont caster too!

I've got a 2nd lvl Human Synthesist in the PFS campaign. Uses her grandad's 2H Greatsword (Heirloom Wpn), Something like AC 21 (25 with Shield spell), 35 HP (inc temps), Attack Gt Sword +7. Dam 2D6+4 (no pwr attack yet).

For Magii, use Bastard Sword. Heirloom Wpn grants prof as 1H wpn too. So you can go 1H for Spellstrike/Wandstrike. Rest of time used 2H for extra damage. So wand of Truestrike, you're attacking at 'extra' +18 to hit! (Spell/Wandstrike normally reduces attacks by -2 to hit).

And yes, got one of those too, in PFS campaign. Dwarven Magi called Gandalf, wielding the Heirloom Bastard Sword.

(If you're using Traits, try Magic is Life [APG]. Auto stabilization when neg HP, as long as you're under any spell effect).

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: Master Crafted Backpack (APG) effectively increases you carry capacity as if your strength was one higher. (Effectively rebalancing you load).

These are my PFS characters and aren't min/maxed.

Human Synthesist 2

Str 12 [17]
Dex 13 [15]
Con 14 [15]
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18


Attack: Heirloom Gt Sword +7
Damage: 2d6+4
AC 21 (Mithril Shirt/Mage Armour, dex, Nat, Dodge) 25 c/w Shield spell
HP 20 Base. 15 Temp (Total 35)
Feats: Toughness, Dodge
Special Abilities: Darkvision, Evasion

[B]Dwarven Magus 3

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 8

Attack: Heirloom Cold Iron B/Sword +6 (Inc Arcane Pool)
Damage: D10+4
AC 17 (Mitril SHirt+1, Dex) 21 with Shield spell
HP 33

Feats: Toughness, Pwr Attack
Magus Arcana; Wandstrike

Not optimised, but fun anyway.

[CigarPete]

How are you affording a Mithril Shirt on a 1st or 2nd level character?

[Paul H]

Hi

In PFS, you generally get about 500GP per adventure. And level every 3rd scenario. (Retire at 12th).

My Synthesist 2 has done four, has a Mithril Shirt, but still no magic weapon, and has only about 71GP left.

My Magus 3 has done five scenarios, has a Mithril Shirt +1, but still no magic weapons. (He can 'make' them magical with Arcane Pool). And only 154GP.

Hope that helped
Paul H
Edit: (For the following post)
Never been an Anime fan, but thanks for explaining.
For Gish - take either Sorc 1/Pal 4/Dragon Disciplexx or Sorc 4/Pal 1/Dragon Disciple xxx

[Ravens_cry]

You didn't budget any weight for rope!

Otherwise, at level one, sure, but after that... I tend to be paranoid enough to want to everything I might need. Climbing kit, plenty of rope, some manacles, at least one 10' pole, flour, marbles, pitch, misc flasks and pouches, solvents, flint and steel, a shovel, a crowbar, a hacksaw, at least a minor golf bag of different melee weapons and arrow types, utility potions/scrolls/wands, etc. Basically at minimum, for any character, if I can manage it. There's a reason I ALWAYS get a handy haversack, if possible.
Well, yes, but lets see what strength is good for hitting things, damaging things, and carrying things. Dexterity is good (with the feat) for hitting things, damaging things, protecting you from both reflex saves and hits, even touch attacks, and there is a fairly cheap magic item that makes the carrying things that much easier. And before you do that, you can always try convincing the big strong fighter, or the dwarf, to carry the stuff for you. Not quite as good as on your own person, but at least its available. While a strength based magus might do more damage, they are going to be quite fragile AC wise unless they roll for statistics and get very lucky.
@Paul H
Not quite what I had in mind.The Synthesist Summoner sounds more like playing Guyver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyver:_The_Bioboosted_Armor), which, while amazingly cool in its own right, is not what I was meant. I was more of thinking of a sorcerer gish-in-a-can, the way the magus is a wizard gish-in-a-can. Maybe include bloodline powers at a reduced rate as well.
To the Homebrew-mobile, Robin!

[FMArthur]

You forgot Initiative. Initiative is important!

[Ravens_cry]

You forgot Initiative. Initiative is important!
D'oh!:smallredface:
Still, yeah, my point stands. For someone who is going to be wearing light armour for much of their career, dexterity high is more important in my view.

[Anderlith]

Stats are
Str 18
Dex 14
Con15
Int 18
Wis 9
Cha 6
(Yeah I know I have two 18's, but it was a legit roll of 4d6-drop the lowest)
& I still get a +2 for being Human or Half-elf (haven't decided yet)
& As I said I would like to use a reach weapon, the way I read the Spell combat entry I only use that if I want to hit with a spell & a weapon. But the magus also has a spell channeling ability for touch spells (which is what I was thinking of using the most) that doesn't require one hand free

[Anderlith]

Double post

[Ravens_cry]

Query: Does the two weapon fighting feat improve the penalty on the Magus Spell Combat ability?

[Darcand]

Looking into it again, at home this time, I think I would still opt for a falchion.

I like Familiar (for a bonded weapon) as your 3rd level Arcana, and then Pool Strike at 6th. Then transition into EK at 7th to grab full BAB, d10 hp, and some more bonus feats.

Right now, as a standard action I believe you can laydown 2d4+1 +1.5xSTR +4d6 energy of your choice on a 15-20 crit range with a weapon you enchanted yourself at level 5 for half price (and will probably keen yourself at level 8 so that you can bump up to 5d6) Since you can hold the charge on Pool Strike for up to a minute if you keep missing, it's not going to be wasted.

And you still get to save your spells for something more useful then dealing direct damage.

[gourdcaptain]

Query: Does the two weapon fighting feat improve the penalty on the Magus Spell Combat ability?

No - it's already -2, and it's not TWF in any way mechanically.

[Telasi]

I like Familiar (for a bonded weapon) as your 3rd level Arcana, and then Pool Strike at 6th. Then transition into EK at 7th to grab full BAB, d10 hp, and some more bonus feats.


The Familiar arcana only gives you a familiar. It can't give you a bonded object because it very specifically gives you a familiar, which follows the normal familiar rules.

[klemdakherzbag]

Query: Does the two weapon fighting feat improve the penalty on the Magus Spell Combat ability?

TWF specifies wielding a second weapon in the off-hand
edit - ninja'd by slow typing fingers

[Darcand]

The Familiar arcana only gives you a familiar. It can't give you a bonded object because it very specifically gives you a familiar, which follows the normal familiar rules.

Looking at it I bet that you're right, or they would have called it Arcane Bond, or whatever they call it. I suppose a half-elf using his bonus skill focus to a knowledge skill could still pick it up at 3rd level for the price of a feat though from the (arcane? bloodline)

[acid_ninja]

Dervish Dance isn't all that hot for a magus.
If you go that route, you just wasted the armored casting class feature AND lowered your damage output. All for the cost of a feat!

¬.¬

Use high STR, don't waste feats on finesse/dervish and power through a couple levels of AC being a couple points behind. Rejoice in the fact that you:
1) Have more spare feats
2) Do more damage from day 1
3) Will do even more melee damage whenever you deem not to cast a spell (read: attack with the scimitar as if it were a 2h, because you can use 1h weapons with both hands)
4) Get to use all your class features to their maximum potential. Go full plate!

The spare feats thing is true but what Raven said about MAD is true. If you're using PB you'll be better off leaving STR at 10 or 11, picking up the MW backpack and going with dervish dance. Don't forget that you'll get stat increases and stat boosting items as you level up. Putting all your eggs in the Dex basket gets you better returns for that. Full plate comes online at what, level 14? By that point you should have crafted yourself some celestial armor.

If you're worried about the early levels, use a rapier until level 3 or dip fighter at level 2 to pick up dervish dance with a bonus feat.

Using a bastard sword is not as optimal due to the crit thing. Remember, a keen bastard sword has a threat range of 17-20 (4 numbers or 20%) while a scimitar (or Khopar or Urumi if you must have that d8 damage) has a threat of 15-20 (6 numbers or almost 30%). Why are crits so important? Spell damage is doubled. What would you rather have? A +1 or +2 for using two hands, or another 5d6 damage from critting with shocking grasp?

Take extra arcane pool a few times and you have sorcerer-level stamina to just spam that bad boy over and over again.

Hell, you can easily make up the difference in damage by taking close range and using ray of frost on all your attacks. Get arcane strike to add a small (but low-cost) damage increase as well and you'll be all right. Also, a scimitar is not a light weapon so you can power attack with it. Take furious focus and only power attack when you move and attack. Arcane poll also lets you up your weapon's damage for 10 rounds (read: one combat) and scales up.

Also, the real strength of the magus is not just damage, but debuffing as well. Look at elemental touch. Not that impressive damage but a nice little debuff effect. Sure its low level, but cast it once and you force a save every round. Law of averages says you'll get a couple through. Frostbite is a no-save slow for one round. Again, arcane recall is your friend.

Also, rime spell+close range+ray of frost means a no-save, three round entangle added to a melee attack for a 1st level spell slot and is online by level 3.

[/rant]

[Andreaz]

The spare feats thing is true but what Raven said about MAD is true. If you're using PB you'll be better off leaving STR at 10 or 11, picking up the MW backpack and going with dervish dance. Don't forget that you'll get stat increases and stat boosting items as you level up. Putting all your eggs in the Dex basket gets you better returns for that. Full plate comes online at what, level 14? By that point you should have crafted yourself some celestial armor.
Right, and that means that unless you multiclass you will be attacking at +0 for at least one level.

Ok, you went dex and dervish dance. you are using lighter armor and ignoring strength for all purposes. Now go str.
You have dex 10. So your ac is pretty bad sitting at 14, or 18 with Shield on. 3 or 4 less AC than a heavy dex magus, huh?
I find that hardly means much. At the same time I'm hitting things at +3 or +4 with that beautiful +6 to damage from level 1. Deadlier enough that things live less than 2 rounds unless I fumble seriously, and at that point another 4 ac would matter just as little.

Both choices suck for the early game because you are either stuck with little AC or horribad damage/hit, so don't bother with that bit and look at the end game.

[Luckmann]

I have a question here.

A Magus always have one hand free.

Does this mean that I can make a full-round attack, cast a spell, and pull off a Claw/Nail natural attack every round? While you could reasonably argue that you're already casting a spell with that hand, I don't think it actually says.

Verdict?


You didn't budget any weight for rope!

Otherwise, at level one, sure, but after that... I tend to be paranoid enough to want to everything I might need. Climbing kit, plenty of rope, some manacles, at least one 10' pole, flour, marbles, pitch, misc flasks and pouches, solvents, flint and steel, a shovel, a crowbar, a hacksaw, at least a minor golf bag of different melee weapons and arrow types, utility potions/scrolls/wands, etc. Basically at minimum, for any character, if I can manage it. There's a reason I ALWAYS get a handy haversack, if possible.I.. I don't even know what a haversack is. :smalleek:

Edit: Oh, it's a bag. Why didn't you just say bag? Sounded like a farming implement of some sort.

[CTrees]

I.. I don't even know what a haversack is. :smalleek:

Edit: Oh, it's a bag. Why didn't you just say bag? Sounded like a farming implement of some sort.


Because I was specifically referring to Heward's Handy Haversack, which in Pathfinder's product identity stripped form is simply the Handy Haversack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items#TOC-Handy-Haversack).