PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Druids get spells at the same rate as bards.



Rogue Shadows
2011-07-12, 10:59 PM
As a side note, this is part of a total re-design for 3.5 I'm working on that's trying to make every Core class Tier 3.

But anyway.

What happens to druids that gain spells at the same rate as a Bard? For the sake of argument, nothing about the druid spell list, not anything else about the druid, is changed - the 7th-, 8th-, and 9th-level spells are just cut out entirely.

Zeta Kai
2011-07-12, 11:07 PM
Well, they still have an Animal Companion which is functionally equivalent to a second Tier 5-or-below character, they still have Wild Shape (& are a fool if they don't take Natural Spell at 6th level), & they still have a decent casting power. They aren't full casters, but they are still one of the most powerful, most versatile base classes ever published. One could argue that nerfing their casting would bust them down to Tier 2, but even that's debatable.

In brief, "Not much".

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-12, 11:10 PM
Well, they still have an Animal Companion which is functionally equivalent to a second Tier 5-or-below character, they still have Wild Shape (& are a fool if they don't take Natural Spell at 6th level), & they still have a decent casting power. They aren't full casters, but they are still one of the most powerful, most versatile base classes ever published. One could argue that nerfing their casting would bust them down to Tier 2, but even that's debatable.

In brief, "Not much".

Hmm, didn't think so...

*sits down cross-legged, arms folded, under a waterfall, and resumes thinking*

BillyBobJoe
2011-07-12, 11:10 PM
We do that and take away wild shape.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-12, 11:25 PM
We do that and take away wild shape.

How about we just cut out all the spellcasting.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-12, 11:25 PM
How about we just cut out all the spellcasting.

Did that for a low-magic campaign once, and compensated by giving them wild shape starting at level 1 and the ability to shapeshift into Fey by level...12, if I recall. The class was still fun...but I'm not sure I'd want that for standard D&D.


We do that and take away wild shape.

Wild shape is kind of iconic to the class, though...it'd be like removing favored enemy from ranger or something.

What about cutting off two more spell levels, bringing it down to just spells from levels 0-4?

Like so:

http://i53.tinypic.com/f9yr8.png

BillyBobJoe
2011-07-12, 11:29 PM
Wild shape is kind of iconic to the class, though...it'd be like removing favored enemy from ranger or something.

We made an entire (non-magical) class based on wild shape, so that basically took the wild shape from the druid.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-12, 11:43 PM
Suggestions for Nerfing the Druids

-Removing the Share Spells part of the animal companion class feature (And the Companion Spellbound feat). Taking away the ability to drive up both you and your pet's Str by 16 with one spell will weaken the animal companion class feature just enough to be noticeable but not enough to make it useless in later levels.

-Making Wild Shape consume a full-round action. Spellcasters abuse the action economy all the time, and if they can shift into animals with pounce anyway (They get the pounce ability if they cast Enhance Wild Shape (Spell Compendium) beforehand), then giving them the extra move action to get themselves situated after they've become a bear or a tiger isn't necessary. Again, this nerf will be at most an inconvenience, but in some situations it will slow down the druid long enough for the mundane melee to get a few hits off and not get completely overshadowed.

-Removing all conjuration (healing) spells from the druid's spell list, or perhaps giving them only a specific version of it that only affects plants and animals (Like the wizard getting the repair wounds spell line for constructs)

-Changing Wild Shape to follow the lycanthropy rules of stat changing instead of simply adopting the animal's stats (Increasing MAD for the druid, arguably only slightly but still there). To ensure less chance of melee monster shenanigans, the bonus to Str, Dex and Con from lycan Wild Shape should be an enhancement bonus, not an untyped bonus.

DiBastet
2011-07-13, 09:16 AM
Make it bard casting (it's important to be spontaneous), and remove wild shape and animal companion, but use Shapeshifting from PHB2 instead.

Actually, making it bard casting (spontaneous) to all full casters helps a lot to tone down the power a little. You have to give sorcerer and wizards different class abilities to make for it (look into pathfinder, lots of small class abilities to choose from), but mostly you undercut a lot of power with that.

I also used that once, it worked pretty well.

Prime32
2011-07-13, 10:04 AM
We do that and take away wild shape.I prefer removing Animal Companion, so that rangers have their niche. (upgrade their companions to druid-strength while you're at it)

EDIT:

Actually, making it bard casting (spontaneous) to all full casters helps a lot to tone down the power a little. You have to give sorcerer and wizards different class abilities to make for it (look into pathfinder, lots of small class abilities to choose from), but mostly you undercut a lot of power with that.

I also used that once, it worked pretty well.
Plug: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11701

Dryad
2011-07-13, 10:13 AM
I think that there should be a place for a casting-focussed Druid as well as a Wild-shape melee focussed Druid.
So how about alternating? Casting druid gets full casting, but no wild shape, while a wildshape druid gets less casting, but PhbII wild shape?

As for Animal Companions: A casting druid would do well with one, a melee druid less so.

ErrantX
2011-07-13, 10:38 AM
Removing Natural Spell from existence will go a long way towards nerfing them, otherwise they're still going to be polar bears riding polar bears who roar and spit more bears who roar and spit bees that sting with AIDS. If they're forced to stay in caster form to do it, it becomes only moderately less terrifying. Bardic-style casting, no animal companion, and no natural spell. That will go a long way towards nerfing them. Bringing them down to 4th level spells is a bit much.

-X

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-07-13, 10:57 AM
Just FYI regarding the "wild shape is iconic to druids" argument:

In AD&D, the druid didn't get wild shape until level 7. When he did, he was able to assume the form of three different types of animals 1/day each for a short time (1 mammal, 1 reptile, and 1 bird, and in 3e terms they had to be between Medium and Tiny size, inclusive). Because AD&D animals were basically 0th-level/1 HD creatures and you didn't have any stat replacement, it worked like the PHB2 shapeshift variant--you can look like whatever you want, but all you really get out of it is an ability like flight or water breathing. You couldn't cast in wild shape, you were incredibly weak, and you never got any combat-relevant abilities like armor or increased Str or whatever (you got their number of attacks, I think, but considering they were 6 levels below you and couldn't be buffed, you never used them).

So if you really want to keep the "iconic" wild shape for this reduced-casting druid, you could replace the whole thing with an ability that says "At 7th level, you may assume the form of 1 mammal per day, 1 bird per day, and 1 reptile per day. Each transformation lasts at most 1 hour, and you use the animal's stats right out of the monster manual--no casting, no buffs, no ability swaps, nothing carries over whatsoever." That should tone things down quite a bit.

DiBastet
2011-07-13, 11:11 AM
Plug: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11701

Or something like that. I however run from ToM like I was running from the plague.

Othniel Edden
2011-07-13, 12:03 PM
I'd look at the Animal Shaman (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/druid.html) ACFs from Pathfinder for druid. They seem to be a right start for how a shapeshifting focused druid might look. Change the spell casting to bard, cut the power level of spells to be more similar to bard, and cut out spontaneous to summon nature's ally, shared spells with animal companions and natural spell. Also enforce the familiarity rules for animal companions and shape shifts. I'd also be tempted to give the druid a familiar rather than an animal companion.

By the same token make wild shape a combat style for rangers, appropriate feats and styles, similar to the totemic transformation mentioned in the link above.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-13, 12:36 PM
I'd look at the Animal Shaman (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/druid.html) ACFs from Pathfinder for druid. They seem to be a right start for how a shapeshifting focused druid might look. Change the spell casting to bard, cut the power level of spells to be more similar to bard, and cut out spontaneous to summon nature's ally, shared spells with animal companions and natural spell. Also enforce the familiarity rules for animal companions and shape shifts. I'd also be tempted to give the druid a familiar rather than an animal companion.

By the same token make wild shape a combat style for rangers, appropriate feats and styles, similar to the totemic transformation mentioned in the link above.

I agree with your post for the majority, but I disagree with the idea to remove spontaneous summon nature's ally. It's powerful, yes, but it's very flavorful as well and it makes sense. Druids are connected to nature and animals. If you want to limit the spontaneous summon, I suggest making it like a domain spell slot that is in addition to the druid's prepared spells.

Ajadea
2011-07-13, 12:40 PM
I'm going to echo Dryad here: separate the wildshape from the druid. Shapeshifter over here, has no casting ability whatsoever, but it can turn into a bear. Spellcaster over there, it can summon a bear (or a lot of bears), but it cannot turn into a bear (at least not without polymorph). Both have to spend feats to get a riding bear (Wild Cohort, namely).

So, to be a bear riding a bear who summons bear swarms, you have to be a 3rd level Shapeshifter/7th level Druid with the Wild Cohort and Natural Spell feats, and to be any good at it, you'll need Practiced Spellcaster as well.

And, imho, removing Natural Spell makes sense, so even if you are a 10th level character with 3 missing caster levels, you cannnot be a bear riding a bear who summons bear swarms.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-13, 12:44 PM
So if you really want to keep the "iconic" wild shape for this reduced-casting druid, you could replace the whole thing with an ability that says "At 7th level, you may assume the form of 1 mammal per day, 1 bird per day, and 1 reptile per day. Each transformation lasts at most 1 hour, and you use the animal's stats right out of the monster manual--no casting, no buffs, no ability swaps, nothing carries over whatsoever." That should tone things down quite a bit.

I was thinking, rather, that you'd be limited to shapeshifting into an animal from the Summon Nature's Ally options - but yes, otherwise using the stats (mostly) right out of the book, except for:
- Mental stats
- Skills
- Feats

But no spellcasting while shapeshifted! I agree with that wholeheartedly.


I'm going to echo Dryad here: separate the wildshape from the druid. Shapeshifter over here, has no casting ability whatsoever, but it can turn into a bear. Spellcaster over there, it can summon a bear (or a lot of bears), but it cannot turn into a bear (at least not without polymorph). Both have to spend feats to get a riding bear (Wild Cohort, namely).

I like that idea, except that if I do that - why have a Druid class at all?

Cleric to the left, Shapeshifter to the right.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-13, 12:50 PM
I like that idea, except that if I do that - why have a Druid class at all?

Cleric to the left, Shapeshifter to the right.

The druid's spell list is very different from the cleric's (that's why people think archivists are better than clerics in some ways. They get access to both cleric and druid spell lists)

Othniel Edden
2011-07-13, 12:51 PM
I agree with your post for the majority, but I disagree with the idea to remove spontaneous summon nature's ally. It's powerful, yes, but it's very flavorful as well and it makes sense. Druids are connected to nature and animals. If you want to limit the spontaneous summon, I suggest making it like a domain spell slot that is in addition to the druid's prepared spells.

I'd agree to the once per day ability. It does seem flavourable like that.

Ajadea
2011-07-13, 01:27 PM
The druid's spell list is very different from the cleric's (that's why people think archivists are better than clerics in some ways. They get access to both cleric and druid spell lists)

Basically this. Also, with the restrictions on the cleric spell list by domain (but leaving them 9ths) and changing druids to function on bard-style casting (with the spells per day of a standard druid up to 6ths?), they become two fundamentally different classes. Of course you will need a handful of extra class features for the heavily pared down druid, but that's not a bad thing.

Yitzi
2011-07-13, 04:21 PM
I'll have to second those who say "not all that much". Unlike clerics, druids don't really make heavy use of their spells for the broken builds (well, except those based on broken spells). I'd say fix the broken spells (e.g. fire seeds, spike growth, spike stones, perhaps control winds, and of course shapechange), weaken their wildshape to the point where a wildshaped druid has combat ability on par with a low tier 4 or even a tier 5, and accept that druid is going to be a highly versatile class (nothing wrong with that; tier 3 is by nature versatile. It's just not broken powerwise like tiers 1 and 2.)

I'm also working on a general core class fix (I'm aiming not for just tier 3, but tier 3 and strong tier 4, as some classes are by nature not versatile enough to hit tier 3 but can make up for that in power), so I've given these matters substantial thought.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-23, 11:26 PM
Give the druid bard casting progression and ranger anima companion. Then give the ranger druid animal companion. That'll be a good start for balancing.

gkathellar
2011-07-24, 07:09 AM
I'll have to second those who say "not all that much". Unlike clerics, druids don't really make heavy use of their spells for the broken builds (well, except those based on broken spells).

I have to strongly disagree with this. There's a reason why even Shapeshift druids are considered Tier 1: massive spell lists to cover a massive variety of situations.

If you make them spontaneous casters ala the bard (and I mean giving them a limited number of spells known in addition to slower spell progression), you'll do a tremendous amount to reduce their power. Drop the Animal Companion and give them either Shapeshift or a weaker Wild Shape from first level, and you've got yourself a Tier 3 class.

EDIT: Oh, and as far as what is or isn't "iconic" goes, I'm pretty sure that druids only got an Animal Companion starting in 3E. (I can't find my 2E PHB to double-check, but I'm almost certain that Animal Companion was a ranger-only class feature.)