Planar Shepherd Rules Clarification

[Stront]

Just wanted some help trying to make sense of this. Looking at Planar Shepherd's I see a lot of people saying how you can turn into a Planetar and get their damage reduction, spell resistance, immunities, etc.

However, in the rules of under "alternate form" is clearly states and I quote, "The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form."

Am I wrong in assuming that you only get the clearly labeled (Ex), (Su) and (SL) abilities and not the Special Qualities as a whole?

[IthroZada]

Edit: I actually misread.

So, re-looking it over, as far as I can tell you are correct. I don't see damage reduction and such explicitly listed under those three.

Now that I've read the rules a bit more carefully, it makes sense.

[Stront]

Edit: I actually misread.

So, re-looking it over, as far as I can tell you are correct. I don't see damage reduction and such explicitly listed under those three.

I'm starting to think Planar Shepherd in itself not so broken afterall.

[IthroZada]

I'm starting to think Planar Shepherd in itself not so broken afterall.

Regardless of possibly losing out on a natural ability like damage reduction, being able to use Wish as a spell like ability, or creating a 10:1 time bubble still makes the Planar Shepherd incredibly potent.

Also, having actually read the top of the page this time, I found:

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
So, absolutely anything on that page, you would obtain from the Planar Shepherd's Wildshape.

[Psyren]

Two points.


In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, you gain all the elemental or outsider’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities.

So far so good. Then we have Rules Compendium:


Damage reduction that can be overcome only by aligned weapons is supernatural.

Yes, you gain the Planetar's damage reduction, because Planar Shepherd specifically gives it to you.


I'm starting to think Planar Shepherd in itself not so broken afterall.

Wait, what? Giving the entire party free wishes is fine, and/or giving them 10 rounds for every 1 the enemy gets is okay, but damage reduction 10/evil was the deal-breaker for you?

[sonofzeal]

I'm starting to think Planar Shepherd in itself not so broken afterall.
......



That's like saying Chuck Norris (http://www.logoi.com/picture-movies/img/chuck_norris_01.jpg) is not so dangerous because his beard isn't as big as Brian Blessed's. (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mpQDM_GHjgQ/TRoL-_-P9oI/AAAAAAAAAU8/G0lBVwb83zY/s1600/brian-blessed.jpg) It isn't, but only because instead of covering a chin, it's actually covering another fist.

The reasons Planar Sheppard are broken go so far beyond that as to render it moot. At that point, gaining all a Planetar's goodies is more of a nice convenience than anything else.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

......



That's like saying Chuck Norris (http://www.logoi.com/picture-movies/img/chuck_norris_01.jpg) is not so dangerous because his beard isn't as big as Brian Blessed's. (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mpQDM_GHjgQ/TRoL-_-P9oI/AAAAAAAAAU8/G0lBVwb83zY/s1600/brian-blessed.jpg) It isn't, but only because instead of covering a chin, it's actually covering another fist.

The reasons Planar Sheppard are broken go so far beyond that as to render it moot. At that point, gaining all a Planetar's goodies is more of a nice convenience than anything else.

Oh snap, a Chuck Norris reference? This just got real.

But yeah, Planar Shepherd = Broken.

[Killer Angel]

But yeah, Planar Shepherd = Broken.

Wasn't Planar Shepherd made, so peoples like Incantatrix can adventure with someone on their level of brokeness? :smallsmile:

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Wasn't Planar Shepherd made, so peoples like Incantatrix can adventure with someone on their level of brokeness? :smallsmile:

What about the Thrallheard? He and his myraid of loyal devotees are the ones who bring all the snacks to these parties.

[HunterOfJello]

1. Specific rules trump general rules. The Planar Shephard entry says, "In addition to the effects of wild shape, you gain all the elemental or outsider's extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities." This conflicts with the general rules for alternate Forms in the Rules Compendium. However, because specific rules trump general rules, the Planar Shephard gets all his nifty abilities until his DM starts throwing books at him.

2. If you do take the rules for Alternate Form and ignore the specific rules set for the Planar Shephard in Faiths of Eberron, then the druid would not gain any of the Special Qualities of the Planetar form. It would also not gain the spell-like abilities of the Planetar form. However, both the Planar Shephard entry and the Alternate Form rules do not specify what happens with the 'Special Attacks: Spells' listing on the outsider. If the druid becomes a Planetar and, "Planetars can cast divine spells as 17th-level clerics" then changing into that shape may end up giving them more spell casting abilities than they have as a druid. This also deserves book throwing, but could be a valid argument for the Planar Shephard Wild Shape. (If anyone knows of a specific ruling by WotC or a listing in another book that contradicts this, I'd be interested in knowing about it.)

[Psyren]

Oh snap, a Chuck Norris reference? This just got real.

I have little doubt that, on the day of his death, the internet will undergo memetic meltdown - with each website convinced it is more hilarious than the last one. :smallsigh:


What about the Thrallheard? He and his myraid of loyal devotees are the ones who bring all the snacks to these parties.

And Dweomerkeeper conducts their worship services, as they prepare to do battle with a Beholder Mage and his Tainted Scholar right-hand.


2. If you do take the rules for Alternate Form and ignore the specific rules set for the Planar Shephard in Faiths of Eberron, then the druid would not gain any of the Special Qualities of the Planetar form. It would also not gain the spell-like abilities of the Planetar form. However, both the Planar Shephard entry and the Alternate Form rules do not specify what happens with the 'Special Attacks: Spells' listing on the outsider. If the druid becomes a Planetar and, "Planetars can cast divine spells as 17th-level clerics" then changing into that shape may end up giving them more spell casting abilities than they have as a druid. This also deserves book throwing, but could be a valid argument for the Planar Shephard Wild Shape. (If anyone knows of a specific ruling by WotC or a listing in another book that contradicts this, I'd be interested in knowing about it.)

This is a can of worms that has never been resolved in any debate I've seen. I wouldn't even bring it up to be honest.

[Killer Angel]

IAnd Dweomerkeeper conducts their worship services, as they prepare to do battle with a Beholder Mage and his Tainted Scholar right-hand.


...does a Sublime Chord, qualify for the soundtrack?

[Alleran]

And Dweomerkeeper conducts their worship services, as they prepare to do battle with a Beholder Mage and his Tainted Scholar right-hand.
Why not a Beholder Mage Tainted Scholar? Or a Tainted Scholar Illithid Savant that ate the brain of a Beholder Mage?

Regardless, an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil supplies the light show.

[Urpriest]

...does a Sublime Chord, qualify for the soundtrack?

Only as part of a Sublime-Ur-Lyrist

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Only as part of a Sublime-Ur-Lyrist

Who's special powers include rocking out, casting evil spells and giving the finger to any god you can think of. He can also HEAR the soundtrack.

[JaronK]

Am I wrong in assuming that you only get the clearly labeled (Ex), (Su) and (SL) abilities and not the Special Qualities as a whole?

Note that all Special Qualities are Ex, Su, or Sp. Unlabeled ones tend to be Ex. This is also true for all Special Attacks (and in fact Special Abilities in general).

And note that Alternate Form grants Na abilities as well. So actually I believe you just get everything. And yes, this class is stupidly broken.

JaronK

[Stront]

I'm starting to think Planar Shepherd in itself not so broken afterall.

<puts down the crack pipe> Okay, I've returned to reality and realized that the Planar Shepherd is broken worse than my bed - after myself and the last 500lb swamp donkey I brought home used it.

<slaps forehead and repents>

[Stront]

So let us pretend that we remove the silly time 10:1 bogus garbage and toss out all Special Qualities completely (if they are listed there you don't get them - aka, Damage Reduction, Cast as 15th level Warlock, SR, Regeneration, etc..) and let them keep only things cleared labeled (Ex), (Su) and (SL) in the creature description.

Is this a bit less OMG - uber? Remotely playable without destroying the very fabric of time and space?

[Urpriest]

So let us pretend that we remove the silly time 10:1 bogus garbage and toss out all Special Qualities completely (if they are listed there you don't get them - aka, Damage Reduction, Cast as 15th level Warlock, SR, Regeneration, etc..) and let them keep only things cleared labeled (Ex), (Su) and (SL) in the creature description.

Is this a bit less OMG - uber? Remotely playable without destroying the very fabric of time and space?

Wish SLAs.

[Stront]

Wish SLAs.

Okay minus any outsiders/elementals with wishes. :smallwink: I guess I just like the character concept; but don't want to play one and make the rest of the group sit back going - WTF?!

[IthroZada]

Well, to not have your group go WTF?, it seems the easiest solution is to make your decision of the particular plane you favor based on a theme, instead of mechanics.

[Stront]

Well, to not have your group go WTF?, it seems the easiest solution is to make your decision of the particular plane you favor based on a theme, instead of mechanics.

Set in Krynn so going with Dome of Creation - basing it on Elysium.

[Psyren]

Even without free Wishes, getting a bunch of Su/Ex/SLAs for free is borked. You're going with Elysium, so how about you wild-shape into a Leonal and get hybrid DR, Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake, wall of force + hold monster at will, always-on magic circle against evil + lesser globe of invulnerability, then throw in the 3/day Holy Word Roar... all while having access to all of your equipment and druid spells. Oh yeah, Leonals can talk, so you don't even need Natural Spell to keep casting.

[mootoall]

Clerics have to spend an hour preparing their spells. Giving yourself 17th level casting as a cleric means you still have to be devout, spend an extra hour of your day meditating, etc.

Mind, it's still incredibly broken, especially once you consider the fact that your 10:1 time trait makes that hour just flyyyyyyyy by, but it's still an extra hour they're not adventuring ...

This argument was much more convincing when a Factotum tried to nab Wizard spellcasting :smalltongue:

[The Random NPC]

Clerics have to spend an hour preparing their spells. Giving yourself 17th level casting as a cleric means you still have to be devout, spend an extra hour of your day meditating, etc.

Mind, it's still incredibly broken, especially once you consider the fact that your 10:1 time trait makes that hour just flyyyyyyyy by, but it's still an extra hour they're not adventuring ...

This argument was much more convincing when a Factotum tried to nab Wizard spellcasting :smalltongue:

Unless the party already contains a wizard or cleric. Then they aren't wasting any time.