Dragonwrought without cheese

[Flame of Anor]

What are some cool things to do with Dragonwrought Kobolds that aren't cheese out the ears? I don't want to see the words "spellhoarding" or "loredrake". :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Getting dragon wings and dragon tail (with flaw) and being a Dragonfire Adept and flying around like the miniature dragon that one is and laying entangling exhalations everywhere sounds... funnish?

Alternatively, dragon tail + dragon wings with sneak attack dice & flying around giving dragony-full attack damage in a convenient and condensed sneak attack package.

Other than that... I don't think there's really many advantages to just being a small sized dragon.

[Divide by Zero]

Pretty much the same things you can do with any other dragon-blooded race. Most of the full dragon only stuff is either weak, useless because of small size, or pure gouda.

[JaronK]

What are some cool things to do with Dragonwrought Kobolds that aren't cheese out the ears? I don't want to see the words "spellhoarding" or "loredrake". :smallwink:

Well, one man's cheese is another man's bread and butter, so I'll just throw all the non Sovereign Archetype tricks out there and you can decide what you like and what you don't.

1) Venerable. Dragonwrought Kobolds explicitly suffer no penalties for aging (see the age table in the Kobold section), so you can be Venerable for +3 to all mental stats at no penalty. Being a Dragonwrought Kobold, your lifespan is actually huge past this point, so there's no worries about suddenly keeling over.

2) Epic Feats. All Dragons of Old age or older qualify for epic feats as though they were 21st level or over. This isn't that amazing, as most epic feats have other requirements (such as skill rank requirements) that mean you can't get in there early, but Epic Toughness is amazing at level 1 and there's a few other interesting options as well.

3) Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Actually available to all Kobolds, this gives +1 Sorcerer level at the cost of a prerequisite feat, 3 permanent hitpoints, and some gold. Totally worth it if you had Sorcerer casting already.

4) Automatic qualification for all PrCs, classes, and feats that require being dragon blooded. Yes, this means massively early qualification for a few PrCs... it's an odd special rule that allows any dragon to just bypass all prerequisites if one of them happens to be "dragon blooded." There's not that many great classes that require this and none are amazing, but it's a fun option to consider. The most insane options are the substitution levels... you can get into Dragonblood Cleric 9 at level 2, for example, because you qualify for it even though you don't have 8 other such levels. Note that your casting will still be that of a first level Cleric because of the wording of the ability, but you would get a very good BAB and saves this way.

5) Wings of Flurry at +1 caster level. Hey, it's a great spell, the extra caster level is great.

6) Dragon Pacts on the dragon side. It's an option for True Dragons only, and it's not really better to be on the dragon side as opposed to the other side of the pact, but it's something you can do so it's worth mentioning.

7) Alter Self. You're a Dragon, so you can turn into some pretty cool and fast forms. Remember you can't go more than 120ft with your fly speed, so Mercury Dragon isn't quite as fun as you might have hoped.

Anyway, that's some options.

JaronK

[MeeposFire]

My groups favorite character by vote and the name of one of my cats (fiance named him after the character not me) was my dragonfire adept dragonwrought kobold. He was was quite the character. In addition he was effective in combat and due to interactions of feats, invocations, and stats I knew EVERYTHING (by knowledge checks). Battlefield control was a lot of fun too. He was so versatile and had AC that was very high due to wearing armor, shields, and natural armor (since armor doesn't hurt low to mid level DFAs).

[only1doug]

I enjoyed playing a (young) Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer with dragon wings, draconic rite of passage etc.

I basically got to be a L9 Sorcerer at L8, with one first level spell as a spell like ability 3/day. Not overpowered, just fun.

[Luckmann]

I enjoyed playing a (young) Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer with dragon wings, draconic rite of passage etc.

I basically got to be a L9 Sorcerer at L8, with one first level spell as a spell like ability 3/day. Not overpowered, just fun.

That's.. that's actually plenty overpowered.
Just not to the point of being broken. :smalltongue:

But yeah, I've always wanted to play a Dragonwrought Kobold in a non-overpowered fashion.

Being able to qualify for all "Dragon blooded" PrCs aught to include Dragon Disciple; Makes me want to try a Dragonwrought Kobold Paladin/Gold Dragon Disciple kind of character.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

*Snip*
The most insane options are the substitution levels... you can get into Dragonblood Cleric 9 at level 2, for example, because you qualify for it even though you don't have 8 other such levels. Note that your casting will still be that of a first level Cleric because of the wording of the ability, but you would get a very good BAB and saves this way.
*Snip*


It doesn't work like that.

Races of the Dragon Pg. 105

"A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class. Selecting a substitution level is not the same as multiclassing—you remain within the class for which the substitution level is taken. The class features of the substitution level simply replace those of the standard class’s level."

Races of the Dragon Pg. 106

"When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the standard class features gained at that level and get the substitution level features instead."

That means that you have to still be a level 9 Cleric to take the substitution level even though you meet the requirement of Dragonblooded.

And using the argument of the poorly worded rules about True Dragons you could qualify for any Class or Prc that requires Dragonblooded and pick and choose the levels you want. Because a requirement for level 2 is level 1 but because you are a True Dragon you can just ignore that and take the second level.

[Taelas]

It does work like that, by RAW. The words are "automatically qualify", and it lacks the qualifier "as if they had the dragonblood subtype", which would mean they simply count as being dragonblood (which is the RAI version). But no, they "automatically qualify", meaning they fulfill every requirement just by being dragons.

He also said it was the most insane. It is pure TO, that.

[JaronK]

Exactly. I did say it was insane. It's technically RAW because of the wording. I was just giving all options... the OP can decide what's fine for his table and what he considers to be serious Gouda.

JaronK

[FMArthur]

Many people think of being Venerable as cheese, but it's really just not that bad. Kobolds have a net ability score penalty before that, and you're spending a feat on it. Not many classes use two or more mental stats, so usually you would wind up slightly behind another race with a mental ability bonus to the one you're using because of the feat investment. Feats are precious.

[King Atticus]

...
2)Epic Feats. All Dragons of Old age or older qualify for epic feats as though they were 21st level or over. This isn't that amazing, as most epic feats have other requirements (such as skill rank requirements) that mean you can't get in there early, but Epic Toughness is amazing at level 1 and there's a few other interesting options as well.
...
JaronK

I didn't know that. I'm actually playing a character right now that could use this. I've never even looked at epic feats as I've never had a character who could use them...until now apparently. It's at least worth looking into. :smallbiggrin:

[Divide by Zero]

I didn't know that. I'm actually playing a character right now that could use this. I've never even looked at epic feats as I've never had a character who could use them...until now apparently. It's at least worth looking into. :smallbiggrin:

Keep in mind that a lot of epic feats are awful (yay +1 natural armor), or have other requirements that put them out of non-epic reach anyway (no Epic Spellcasting for you), so the list of things you might actually want to take is pretty small.

[Taelas]

Epic Toughness, Great [Stat]... and the last one is probably only good if you have a *lot* of spare feats. (But it is an untyped permanent bonus to your stat, so if you want an insanely high Int, you could get it through this.)

[King Atticus]

Keep in mind that a lot of epic feats are awful (yay +1 natural armor), or have other requirements that put them out of non-epic reach anyway (no Epic Spellcasting for you), so the list of things you might actually want to take is pretty small.

I was just reading through them and noticed that. But Epic Toughness looks pretty sweet for my frail little Sorc.

[Luckmann]

Many people think of being Venerable as cheese, but it's really just not that bad. Kobolds have a net ability score penalty before that, and you're spending a feat on it. Not many classes use two or more mental stats, so usually you would wind up slightly behind another race with a mental ability bonus to the one you're using because of the feat investment. Feats are precious.That's actually true. Kobolds have a net -4 ability scores penalty. Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold would put that at a snug net +2 ability scores bonus.

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a lot less OP than I thought it'd be, provided that you don't cheese it.

[tyckspoon]

Keep in mind that a lot of epic feats are awful (yay +1 natural armor), or have other requirements that put them out of non-epic reach anyway (no Epic Spellcasting for you), so the list of things you might actually want to take is pretty small.

Stacked Great Smiting on a Paladin/Ordained Champion/something else that has rapid Smite advancement? There are much more efficient ways to do damage, but it's gotta be pretty satisfying to watch evil just explode when you land an x6 damage Smite.

[King Atticus]

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a lot less OP than I thought it'd be, provided that you don't cheese it.

Yeah, but it's fun. Otherwise kobolds are virtually unplayable.

[JaronK]

An Unseelie Fey Dragonwrought Kobold has +5 Charisma and -Cha mod to saves of nearby enemies, making them incredible as close range blaster Sorcs (Wings of Flurry FTW!).

So there's that. But your other stats are TERRIBLE.

JaronK

[Amnestic]

An Unseelie Fey Dragonwrought Kobold has +5 Charisma and -Cha mod to saves of nearby enemies, making them incredible as close range blaster Sorcs (Wings of Flurry FTW!).

So there's that. But your other stats are TERRIBLE.

JaronK

-6 Str, +4 Dex, -4 Con, +3 Int, +3 Wis, +5 Cha...Toss on Magic Blooded and Arctic (Dragon 306) you can trade out +2 Wis for +2 Con, as well as nab a few other goodies. Good swap if you're a Sorcerer.

[Luckmann]

With like 2 Str you're going to have a hard time even carrying your backpack, though.

[dextercorvia]

With like 2 Str you're going to have a hard time even carrying your backpack, though.

Get Tensor's Floating Disk or Unseen Servant as your Kobold SLA.

[JaronK]

With like 2 Str you're going to have a hard time even carrying your backpack, though.

Get a Riding Dog or similar medium sized mount (one with a climb speed would be nice if possible) and carry your stuff that way until you have no trouble using Greater Floating Disk for that sort of thing.

JaronK

[Flame of Anor]

Awesome guys, thanks. So it seems that the really good parts are getting better stats and qualifying as a dragon for classes and feats. Now I have two questions:

First, where exactly does it make clear that you qualify for dragon classes and epic feats? (It might be very obvious, but I don't have Races of the Dragon in front of me.)

Second, what are some cool dragon classes and epic feats to take?

[Bakkan]

3) Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Actually available to all Kobolds, this gives +1 Sorcerer level at the cost of a prerequisite feat, 3 permanent hitpoints, and some gold. Totally worth it if you had Sorcerer casting already.


Just want to clarify: The Draconic Rite of Passage from Races of the Dragon is available to all kobolds, but the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) requires a level of sorcerer (and a feat).

[JaronK]

First, where exactly does it make clear that you qualify for dragon classes and epic feats? (It might be very obvious, but I don't have Races of the Dragon in front of me.)

Working from memory here, the Epic Feats rule is in Draconomicon. I'm pretty sure the Dragon Blooded class thing is in Races of the Dragon (note: the auto qualify thing only works for things that require Dragon Blooded as a prerequisite... it does not work for things that actually require being a dragon. You still qualify for those of course, but you don't bypass other restrictions).


Second, what are some cool dragon classes and epic feats to take?

Honestly, there's not that much. Epic Toughness is hilarious at level 1. Combat Archery is nice for archers. Damage Reduction could be hilarious with the Dark Chaos Shuffle if you can manage to get a ton of feats by some cheesy method. If you can get your strength to 25, Devastating Critical on a crit fisher character could be brutal as all heck, though it would require Fighter levels to get enough feats (and TWFs, who are the best crit fishers, don't tend to want that high of an Str). Dexterous Will and Fortitude would be fun on a Rogue. And Epic Leadership can be amazing if you can get your Leadership score high enough.

There's more options too, just have a look through the SRD.

JaronK

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Exactly. I did say it was insane. It's technically RAW because of the wording. I was just giving all options... the OP can decide what's fine for his table and what he considers to be serious Gouda.

JaronK

I know it's technically RAW but any sane person (and you did mention it was insane) will kill you with the book you found that True Dragon snippet in.

On a related note, have you considered becoming a lawyer?

[NeoSeraphi]

Awesome guys, thanks. So it seems that the really good parts are getting better stats and qualifying as a dragon for classes and feats. Now I have two questions:

First, where exactly does it make clear that you qualify for dragon classes and epic feats? (It might be very obvious, but I don't have Races of the Dragon in front of me.)

Second, what are some cool dragon classes and epic feats to take?


Your type is dragon instead of humanoid and you lose the dragonblooded subtype

http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-748-dragonwrought.html

The dragon type grants you the following bonuses:

Immunity to dominate person or any other spell that specifically targets humanoids.

The ability to qualify for Epic feats pre-epic (Draconomicon, page 65 I believe) as long as your age category is old or higher

The ability to qualify for the incredibly useful feat Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike using your claws to qualify as a druid, then wildshaping into a tiger and letting the 4 claws and rake frenzy fly.


Edit: You asked for powerful Epic feats. Allow me to assist you with that.

Epic Speed (Prerequisite Dex 21, Run) +30 untyped bonus to your land speed. A powerful epic feat indeed, if you're using flaws.

Epic Toughness- Mentioned several times already, but I don't believe anyone told you exactly what it does. It has no prerequisite other than being Epic, and it grants you +30 hit points. And you can take it multiple times and it stacks. Compared to the Improved Toughness feat that some people take, (+1 hp per HD and non-stacking), it's a significant boon for casters or tanks.

Fast Healing- An incredibly powerful feat that grants you Fast Healing 3. The prerequisite is a Constitution score of 25 or higher, but if you were a druid and you were shifting into powerful animals, this would help quite a bit. (You could also just get a +6 Item and spend some level points to get it up to 25 by level 12 or so)

Epic Prowess- A +1 bonus to attack rolls. All attack rolls.

Epic Weapon Focus- Requires Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus. A +2 bonus to attacks with your chosen weapon, stacking with Weapon Focus. Another great boon for kobold fighters.

Epic Weapon Specialization- Requires Epic Weapon Focus and Weapon Specializaton, but not Greater Weapon Specialization, and gives you a +4 bonus to your damage rolls with that weapon. Combined with Melee Weapon Mastery, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization, its a +10 bonus to damage rolls, which more than makes up for a -4 (or -2, if you choose the right subrace) to Strength. (It can also apply to bows so great for an archer build)

Additional Magic Item Space- No prerequisite. Suddenly you no longer have to choose between that Amulet of Health and that Periapt of Wisdom. Can be taken multiple times, choosing a new magic item slot each time.

Damage Reduction- Requires Con 21. Grants DR 3/-. Stacks with itself and can be taken multiple times. (Take it twice and you're already tougher than a 20th level barbarian)

Epic Fortitude/Reflexes/Will: No prerequisites. +4 untyped to the chosen save.

Legendary Wrestler- Requires Str 21, Dex 21, Improved Unarmed Strike, and 15 ranks in Escape Artist. +10 untyped bonus to all grapple checks. What Clever Wrestling wishes it could be.

Superior Initiative- Requires Improved Initiative- +8 total bonus to your Initiative checks (Doesn't stack with Improved Init)

[ImperatorK]

Funny how Draconomicon says thar dragons of at least old age qualify for epic feats, but most old dragons (all in the SRD at least) have more then 21 levels already. But I figure that there are dragons that don't have that many HD.

[super dark33]

*looks at title* mmmm... sounds tastey.

[NeoSeraphi]

Funny how Draconomicon says thar dragons of at least old age qualify for epic feats, but most old dragons (all in the SRD at least) have more then 21 levels already.

It could be that Epic requires actually class levels, not HD, to qualify. (Wouldn't surprise me since they're mostly player feats anyway)

[ImperatorK]

It could be that Epic requires actually class levels, not HD, to qualify. (Wouldn't surprise me since they're mostly player feats anyway)
HD and LA counts towards your ECL for epic stuff.
EDIT: Found it. DMG page 209.
EDIT2: Huh... That's wierd. In SRD under Epic rules=>Dragons, Advanced there's a mention that dragons can take epic feats only when they're in the great wyrm age category. :smallconfused:

[JaronK]

I know it's technically RAW but any sane person (and you did mention it was insane) will kill you with the book you found that True Dragon snippet in.

Sure. Didn't say it was a good idea to do it, just listing out the options.


On a related note, have you considered becoming a lawyer?

I've actually done some work in contract law. My current job is looking through code for bugs. So yes, I'm in my speciality here... which is looking at what things actually say.

JaronK