Ultimate Combat Classes

[Lastgrasp]

With Ultimate Combat less then a month away does anyone plan on using the new classes? Samurai, Ninja, & Gunslinger? Since I tend to run traditional western fantasy games I'm pretty much never going to use Samurai and Ninja classes. Gunslinger does intrigue me quite a bit.

I've never been a big fan of guns in a fantasy setting, but the Inner Sea World Guide does a good job of introducing them in some doses. Plus, I can see the next Adventure Path after Jade Reagent(I think Skull & Bones) using Gunslingers class quite a bit as pirate inspired.

[IthroZada]

Well, I'm hoping the Gunslinger, and associated gun rules, turn out excellent, because I've been wanting to port over the Gun Mage from Iron Kingdoms, and the rules are rather prohibitive. As for the more eastern classes, I'm mostly hoping they are viable mechanically.

Of course, Samurai, Ninja, and Gunslinger being (are they calling them archetypes?) of Paladin, Rogue, and Fighter, I'm not sure if they'll be much more versatile.

Edit: Oh snap, I have learned rumor has it that the wizard will be receiving a gun mage archetype. I feel as if I would have preferred it as a Sorcerer (for the swagger), but this is good news all the same.

[Lastgrasp]

Samurai and Ninja are Alternative Base Classes and the Gunslinger is a new base class. All the classes are going to have new archetypes in Ultimate Combat. At least most of them. I'm very curious to see what the final version of GS is and how the rest of the firearms equipment turns out.

[kharmakazy]

what are we talking about here, PF?

[IthroZada]

what are we talking about here, PF?

Indeed. Ultimate Combat is the younger brother to Ultimate Magic.


his comprehensive 256-page hardcover reference reveals the martial secrets of the Pathfinder RPG rules like never before! Tons of new tricks and techniques for combat-oriented character classes put a sharp edge on your weapons and a sure step in your tactics, ranging from new barbarian rage powers, new cavalier orders, tons of new rogue talents, and more than 60 new archetypes for nearly every Pathfinder RPG character class, including spellcasters like wizards and clerics.

Ultimate Combat also introduces three new Pathfinder RPG classes: the ninja, samurai, and gunslinger! The ninja blends the subterfuge of the rogue with high-flying martial arts and assassination techniques. The samurai is an unstoppable armored warrior who lives by a strong code of honor—with or without a master. The gunslinger combines the fighter’s martial prowess with a new grit mechanic that allows her to pull off fantastic acts with a pistol or rifle. All this plus tons of new armor and weapons, a complete treatment of firearms in the Pathfinder RPG, a vast array of martial arts, finishing moves, vehicle combat, duels, and new combat-oriented spells for every spellcasting class in the game!

Ultimate Combat includes:
New player character options for 14 Pathfinder RPG base classes, including alchemist discoveries, barbarian rage powers, cavalier orders, combat-cleric archetypes, animal shaman druids, new fighter archetypes like gladiator and armor master, inquisitor archetypes like witch-hunter or spellbreaker, combat-themed magus arcana, monk archetypes based on mastery of martial arts, new paladin archetypes like angelic warrior, ranger archetypes like big game hunter and trapper, new rogue tricks, and wizard archetypes like the gunmage
The ninja, samurai, and gunslinger, brand-new 20-level alternate classes specially designed to get the most out of combat
Hundreds of new combat-oriented feats including martial arts feat trees, finishing moves, and combination feats
In-depth overviews on a variety of combat-related topics, such as armor, Asian weapons, duels, fighting schools, guns, siege weapons, and more
A complete system covering vehicle combat, including wagons, boats, airships, and more
Tons of optional combat rules like called shots, armor as damage reduction, and new ways to track character health

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8ies

[Curious]

I'm looking forward to the book itself, but I don't have very high hopes for the gunslinger. Seriously, the playtest was absolutely horrible, the guns rules were a mess, and the class features were worthless. Still have my optimism though! :smallsmile:

[acid_ninja]

TBH, I'm not super-stoked about the samurai. It is, after all, just a cavalier archtype. The ninja playtest is just an OP rogue. The gunslinger sounds cool except that all the guns so far are black powder, single shot jobs that (to me) don't jive with the mental image of the gunslinger

I'm really hoping for something good in the new feats. I'd really like to see some fighting style feat trees or tactical feats that don't suck. The combat form feats from PHB II were a nice idea but in practice, mostly useles. Give melee some nice things that they can use from an early level! And make more fighter-only stuff that's worth having.

[CTrees]

The Samurai and Ninja just being Anti-Paladin-style ACFs for Cavalier and Rogue just left me completely flat. Now, there's a chance they're going to rebuild things more radically (ditto the gunslinger), as Paizo has a history of fairly big changes between playtest and release, but... I don't know, those just aren't what get me excited about Ultimate Combat.

[The Gilded Duke]

I'm playing a dwarven samurai using the beta tests so far, and he has been doing wonderfully. On paper it looks very similar to a cavalier, but in the end it plays a lot different. Resolve is one of my favorite mechanics ever and the order of the warrior is very nice.

At first level got knocked unconscious by a Mephit. Spent a resolve point to wake back up, and finished it off with my axe before it could kill me.

It would be nice to have some combat style options though, so you could go horseman samurai, spear samurai, archer samaurai etc.

[Xtomjames]

While in my experience with pathfinder many classes aren't exactly different, I doubt either the Samurai or the Ninja will be much better than the 3.5 versions. The Gunslinger because of the limited design of firearms will also be a wash. If you want a good gunslinger convert the Rifts version of the class over to D20, or take the D20 modern version and port it over.

[Lastgrasp]

While in my experience with pathfinder many classes aren't exactly different, I doubt either the Samurai or the Ninja will be much better than the 3.5 versions. The Gunslinger because of the limited design of firearms will also be a wash. If you want a good gunslinger convert the Rifts version of the class over to D20, or take the D20 modern version and port it over.

Right now there is limited firearms rules, but from what I understand Ultimate Combat will be introducing a lot more options for firearms. So I guess we will see how viable the gunslinger is.

Out of the three classes I'm most looking forward to the Gunslinger.

[subject42]

While in my experience with pathfinder many classes aren't exactly different, I doubt either the Samurai or the Ninja will be much better than the 3.5 versions.

Based on a short little campaign that my group ran a while back, the Ninja is actually on par with the Rogue. It's better for combat, but not quite as good out of combat. It's definitely better than the 3.5 version.

That said, given how its conceptually similar to the Magic Monk, I'm not sure why they didn't just make it a Rogue Archetype.

[The Gilded Duke]

While in my experience with pathfinder many classes aren't exactly different, I doubt either the Samurai or the Ninja will be much better than the 3.5 versions. The Gunslinger because of the limited design of firearms will also be a wash. If you want a good gunslinger convert the Rifts version of the class over to D20, or take the D20 modern version and port it over.

Have you read the Pathfinder Samurai playtest at all?
It gets a cavalier style Challenge (+class level on damage until target is dead)
It gets resolve, rechargeable points that can be used to double roll saves, and remove conditions, ignore crits.
Sam levels count as fighter levels for Sam related weapons.
Party Wide bonus on charge attacks
Bonus Feats

And that's only about a third of the abilities.

[Ravens_cry]

The gunslinger looks superficially cool, but could use a) more skill points, 4 or even 6 plus Intelligence mod would be nice and b) more damage potential. As it stands, they suck at it. Worse than a crossbow user suck at it. Which is too bad as that is, mostly, what they do. To help. I might homebrew a feat that makes the weapon cord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#TOC-Weapon-Cord) use a free action to recover from a dropped, though not disarmed. (the disarming also cutting the cord)
That only helps a pistol gun slinger though.
Another piece of home-brew is to allow deadly aim to work with gun touch attacks.
As it stands, they seem most useful as a literally one level dip for a rogue who likes the sneak attack at range.

[FMArthur]

Have you read the Pathfinder Samurai playtest at all?
It gets a cavalier style Challenge (+class level on damage until target is dead)
It gets resolve, rechargeable points that can be used to double roll saves, and remove conditions, ignore crits.
Sam levels count as fighter levels for Sam related weapons.
Party Wide bonus on charge attacks
Bonus Feats

And that's only about a third of the abilities.

So basically, everything in line with the things Paizo thinks melee should get, which is slightly stronger than the CW and CAdv era of WotC melee class design. What you've listed sounds like a cross between the CW Samurai and the Marshal with some rerolls thrown in. Is that supposed to be impressive, or just impressive relative to the neutered Fighter?

[Rixx]

Another piece of home-brew is to allow deadly aim to work with gun touch attacks.

In the playtest update, it was changed / clarified that Deadly Aim works with all firearm attacks.

[Ravens_cry]

In the playtest update, it was changed / clarified that Deadly Aim works with all firearm attacks.
Good, at least they get that. Because, seriously, even if you can ignore armour, some places hurt more to get hit at.

[BinaryMage]

So basically, everything in line with the things Paizo thinks melee should get, which is slightly stronger than the CW and CAdv era of WotC melee class design. What you've listed sounds like a cross between the CW Samurai and the Marshal with some rerolls thrown in. Is that supposed to be impressive, or just impressive relative to the neutered Fighter?

Well, I think the system with regard to martial vs. caster is broken far beyond repair, and what Paizo's trying to do is make melee classes that are fun to play, which I am all for.

[FMArthur]

Late 3.5 did a pretty damned good job and gave melee what it needed. I like a lot of Pathfinder material, I really do, but in some areas it's alarmingly regressive, like their goal in "fixing" 3.5 was subverting the new trend of fun, interesting and balanced classes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, I think the system with regard to martial vs. caster is broken far beyond repair, and what Paizo's trying to do is make melee classes that are fun to play, which I am all for.

Ever heard of Tome of Battle? Yeah, it's a new system. So is PF. PF put in hundreds of rules changes like CMB/CMD, size modifiers, feat changes, etc. And you don't want to learn a new system that makes melee better? Play a druid. You think it's too anime? Well guess what, Europe fighting schools gave stylistic names to their moves as well, martial adepts don't shout out the name in the middle of battle, and big stunts are wuxia, not anime.

Anyway, I have hopes that Ultimate Combat will have some good feats, which are half the fighters class features.

[BinaryMage]

Ever heard of Tome of Battle? Yeah, it's a new system. So is PF. PF put in hundreds of rules changes like CMB/CMD, size modifiers, feat changes, etc. And you don't want to learn a new system that makes melee better? Play a druid. You think it's too anime? Well guess what, Europe fighting schools gave stylistic names to their moves as well, martial adepts don't shout out the name in the middle of battle, and big stunts are wuxia, not anime.

Anyway, I have hopes that Ultimate Combat will have some good feats, which are half the fighters class features.

I'm not saying melee can't be made better, only that without drastic changes to the system, a tier 1 caster is still going to destroy nearly any melee character in most cases. I'm all for making melee better!

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm not saying melee can't be made better, only that without drastic changes to the system, a tier 1 caster is still going to destroy nearly any melee character in most cases. I'm all for making melee better!

Tome of Battle made melee better by leaps and bounds, Pathfinder only took some steps in the right direction and stopped there. Yeah yeah, Pathfinder is a new system and doesn't have as much splatbooks, but they should've known how bad melee is and how broken casters are because they literally had years to playtest.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why is it when I see the thread post, I can't help but think of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WgT9gy4zQA)...

[Xtomjames]

After reading the play test I'll still stick to what I said before.

The ninja isn't much different from 3.5 and the trade off for no magic versus ninja-skill tricks is okay, but really doesn't up potency. What more, I don't know what world you're living in, but the ninja isn't better for damage when compared to a rogue, not in the slightest.

The samurai is a step up from the 3.5 version but I'm on the fence with it's scope and the limitations that exist.

The gunslinger was about where I thought it'd be, again go port the Rifts version of the gunslinger instead.