D&D 3.5 Questions About Some Rules

[Angeal976]

Heya everyone, I am new to this forum, and had a question. My friends and I have started a D&D 3.5 campaign, and my question is this: if I use shuriken as my weapon, and take two weapon fighting, rapid shot, and take a level in monk for flurry of blows, does that mean I can make 4 attacks (normal attack+off hand+flurry+rapid shot) as a full round action?

[Urpriest]

Yes. Note that since you're taking pretty huge penalties to hit (-6 from just the feats+monk) this isn't all that great.

[Cofniben]

Toss up, because the flurry of blows doesn't have any kind of definition, but I would say yes, but all minuses accumulate and that would give you a good amount off your attack.

[SleepyBadger]

Yes. Note that since you're taking pretty huge penalties to hit (-6 from just the feats+monk) this isn't all that great.
Isn't it just -4 (which is still crap btw). -2 from TWF with shurikens and -2 (flurry)?

[Keld Denar]

Urpriest is correct. All bonus attacks would apply, and all penalties would be cumulative.

-2 for TWF
-2 for Rapid Shot
-2 for Flurry (assuming less than 6 levels monk)

= -6 total before BAB, Dex, and other modifiers.

[SleepyBadger]

Urpriest is correct. All bonus attacks would apply, and all penalties would be cumulative.

-2 for TWF
-2 for Rapid Shot
-2 for Flurry (assuming less than 6 levels monk)

= -6 total before BAB, Dex, and other modifiers.
Right. For a moment I thought Rapid Shot would only add the negative modifier to the last shot. My mistake.

[Angeal976]

Okay, great, thanks everyone. My next question was also answered. I was going to ask if all the penalties stack, and they do. So thanks again.

[Flickerdart]

If your DM waives alignment restrictions, Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy would give you another attack (albeit with another -2).

[Angeal976]

Whoa, really? Is whirling fenzy a feat or something?

[Urpriest]

Whoa, really? Is whirling fenzy a feat or something?

It's a variant barbarian. The variant is described in Unearthed Arcana (also on the SRD if you use that).

[Angeal976]

Okay, thanks. I will defnitely look into that.

[HalfDragonCube]

Nah, it's an alternative class feature (ACF) found in Unearthed Arcana.

[HappyBlanket]

Just to emphasize:

It doesn't matter if you throw one or fifty shuriken in a single round if none of them land a hit.

[Flickerdart]

There's also the non-core Master Thrower PrC that lets you double the amount of throwing attacks you make. It's pretty easy to get a ton of weapons thrown.

[Angeal976]

Ah, found although I have to be raging in order to use it, and I'm not sure I wanna do that, but thanks anyway.

[SamBurke]

The main issue with this is your chances of hitting. That needs to be boosted somehow. Truestrike, perhaps, but that'd be for ONE attack. A decent bet is to use Ioun Stones and the like to boost your Dex through the roof, depending on how much money you have.

[SleepyBadger]

Is it the monk class you're really interested in or do you want a character with as many attacks as possible? (Who also has a chance to hit?) A cleric with the Spell domain can of course persist Wraithstrike. That would make the attack a touch attack, which can cancel out the -6 with the majority of opponents. But then why not go cleric and forget about the monk?

[Angeal976]

Well we are playing a gestalt game (two classes per every level) and we are currently level 3. I was going to go Ninja level 2, for sudden strike/ki stuff, and shuriken+ninja, Swashbuckler 3, for the + int to damage with shuriken), and Monk 1, for flurry of blows. We also get 2 feat at every normal feat level, so 2 feats at level one, two more feat at level 3, etc. So I was going to take precise shot, rapid shot, point blank shot, two weapon fighting, and take a flaw to get dead eye. Alos, another flaw to get weapon focus with shuriken.

[HappyBlanket]

I was going to ask the eternal question (how optimized is the rest of your group?), but that's probably more meddling than we're supposed to give.


Is it the monk class you're really interested in or do you want a character with as many attacks as possible? (Who also has a chance to hit?) A cleric with the Spell domain can of course persist True Strike.

A persisted Truestrike would last for 24 hours or until your next melee attack. No dice.

[SleepyBadger]

A persisted Truestrike would last for 24 hours or until your next melee attack. No dice.
Sorry. Edited post. Meant Wraithstrike.

[AppleChips]

Well, even if you have really low attack bonuses, the more attacks you make, the more likely that you'll score a critical which will hit regardless of whether you confirm. Still, 4 attacks a round which only hit on natural 20s would only be about a 19% chance to hit once. But at low levels, enemies will likely have AC lower than 20, so it will be higher anyway, even without Dex and BAB bonuses, etc.

[Angeal976]

There's also the non-core Master Thrower PrC that lets you double the amount of throwing attacks you make. It's pretty easy to get a ton of weapons thrown.

Yeah I planned on levleing into master thrower as soon as I can so I can throw even more weapons. The point of this build isn't to always throw as many as I can, I can still choose how many I want to throw. If the enemy seems to have really high normal armor class, only a few attacks, if there armor class seems lower, or if I beat the enemy in initiative, or make good use of ghost step, then I have a better chance of hitting, and can try to make more attacks. Mostly I just wanted to have a ninja shuriken master, who has the potential to make a lot of shuriken attacks.

[HalfDragonCube]

Yeah I planned on levleing into master thrower as soon as I can so I can throw even more weapons. The point of this build isn't to always throw as many as I can, I can still choose how many I want to throw. If the enemy seems to have really high normal armor class, only a few attacks, if there armor class seems lower, or if I beat the enemy in initiative, or make good use of ghost step, then I have a better chance of hitting, and can try to make more attacks. Mostly I just wanted to have a ninja shuriken master, who has the potential to make a lot of shuriken attacks.

Be a wizard, then. Fly, then empty a box of shuriken over the enemies.

[Aharon]

@AppleChips
But hoping for this critical is not a very wise tactic. The same character is better of if he uses fewer, more accurate attacks.

Let's say the Monk is human, has Str 18, is first level, and wants to hit an opponent with AC 10. (Easy to hit commoner...).

If he just throws 1 shuriken, his attack bonus is +4, giving him a 70% hit chance.

If he throws 4 shuriken with the above tactic (rapid shot + flurry + off hand), his attack bonus is -2, giving him a 40% hit chance with each shuriken.

The chance that one or more of his shuriken hit is around 87%. Sure, that is better than the first scenario, but he also invested two feats (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot) and had to use a full-round action, while in the first scenario, he can still move. Is that trade-off worth a 17% increase in your hit chance? I don't think so.

[SleepyBadger]

The chance that one or more of his shuriken hit is around 87%. Sure, that is better than the first scenario, but he also invested two feats (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot) and had to use a full-round action, while in the first scenario, he can still move. Is that trade-off worth a 17% increase in your hit chance? I don't think so.
He will also need precise shot assuming some of his companions go melee... otherwise it's another -4 penalty. So he needs to take point blank shot anyway.

[Angeal976]

He will also need precise shot assuming some of his companions go melee... otherwise it's another -4 penalty. So he needs to take point blank shot anyway.

Yes, I have both of those feats. These are my attack rolls, if I attack with all 4 shuriken, my attack bonus is +4 for all of them, if I attack with three it's +6, if I attack with 2, each one is +8, and if I attack with only one my attack bonus is +10, and each shuriken I hit with does 1D2+11.

[Cofniben]

Well we are playing a gestalt game (two classes per every level) and we are currently level 3. I was going to go Ninja level 2, for sudden strike/ki stuff, and shuriken+ninja, Swashbuckler 3, for the + int to damage with shuriken), and Monk 1, for flurry of blows. We also get 2 feat at every normal feat level, so 2 feats at level one, two more feat at level 3, etc. So I was going to take precise shot, rapid shot, point blank shot, two weapon fighting, and take a flaw to get dead eye. Alos, another flaw to get weapon focus with shuriken.

Don't go with Ninja, go with Rogue, it gives you more skill points, and the Uncanny Dodge ability is worth it for light armor wearing players. Also something to think about, instead of throwing shuriken, go with daggers. With the feats Point Blank Show, Far Throw and Weapon Focus, you can go into the prestige class Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior, a 5 level class where you get +3d6 sneak attack, +Int mod to your Dex bonus to AC (up to +5) when wearing no armor, can take a 10 on a feint attempt to catch them flat footed and can do it as a free action!

Granted they have to be wielding daggers, but that's no problem.
Also the creator of the class expanded it and changed a few things on his website, changing it from a 5 level class to a 10, so that may be worth asking your DM about, here is the link http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_prestige_classes_page.htm

[Keld Denar]

The issue with throwing daggers over shurikens is that daggers are NOT ammunition, and thus you'd have to take Quickdraw as well if you wanted to get more than 2 attacks every other round (one attack in between). Shurikens are ammunition, and thus drawing them is a free action, obliviating the need for Quickdraw.

Then agian, Master Thrower grants Quickdraw as a bonus feat, but thats kinda later than most people are willing to wait.

[Angeal976]

Hmmm, I will definitely thik about it, but I really planned on giving him shuriken just as part of the flavor. Also I would have to take quick draw in order to make more then two attacks with a dagger. But thanks, I will check it out.

Edit: Ninja'd

[SleepyBadger]

Hmmm, I will definitely thik about it, but I really planned on giving him shuriken just as part of the flavor. Also I would have to take quick draw in order to make more then two attacks with a dagger. But thanks, I will check it out.

Edit: Ninja'd
You would lose out on the flurry of blows with daggers.

[Angeal976]

Oh yeah! That is also true, thanks for pointin that out.

[HappyBlanket]

Be a wizard, then. Fly, then empty a box of shuriken over the enemies.

Half of the Wizard's power comes from the unstoppable arcane might that commands Reality itself to bow it's head in servitude. The other half involves Overland Flight and large boxes.


edit: I'm not entirely sure as to which percentage contains cross breeding.