Green dragon with antimagic field

[SleepyBadger]

Party's task is to slay an ancient green dragon with an apparently self-developed antimagic field spell that covers the whole dragon and everything in 10 ft radius from it. (Either that or the DM just misread the spell desciption. Which is all the same.) Party is seventeenish level, not optimized, it consists out of a ranger, a duskblade, a mystic theurge with divine metamagic (quickened spell) and a bard/sublime chord. Party does not have access to 9th level spells as yet. The most useful previous tactic we could come up with included surprise-teleporting near the dragon (buffed and all) and trying to bombard it with enervations before it could fire up its shield and crush a party member. This tactic already failed twice so the party is currently really frustrated. (Dragon also has a few clerics and wizards as minions who would show up sooner or later so sacrificing a member and shooting at it from a distance doesn't work either as they would just dipel our buffs.) Allowed resources are PHB, DMG, PGtF and all Completes except for Complete Mage. (PHBII is not allowed, the duskblade is a one-time exception.) Do you have any better ideas? (Other than leaving the poor lizard be and pick up basketweaving?) Suggesting to find allies is nice but nobody wants to fight the dragon (we don't either but it is seemingly the only way to advance the main story line.)

[Starbuck_II]

Party's task is to slay an ancient green dragon with an apparently self-developed antimagic field spell that covers the whole dragon and everything in 10 ft radius from it. (Either that or the DM just misread the spell desciption. Which is all the same.)

Then it can't use its breath weapon, loses its DR/magic, and can't cast spells.



Party is seventeenish level, not optimized, it consists out of a ranger, a duskblade, a mystic theurge with divine metamagic (quickened spell) and a bard/sublime chord. Party does not have access to 9th level spells as yet. The most useful previous tactic we could come up with included surprise-teleporting near the dragon (buffed and all) and trying to bombard it with enervations before it could fire up its shield and crush a party member. This tactic failed repeatedly so the party is currently really frustrated. (Dragon also has a few clerics and wizards as minions who would show up sooner or later so sacrificing a member and shooting at it from a distance doesn't work either as they would just dipel our buffs.)

Allowed resources are PHB, DMG, PGtF and all Completes except for Complete Mage. (PHBII is not allowed, the duskblade is a one-time exception.)

Do you have any better ideas? (Other than leaving the poor lizard be and pick up basketweaving?) Suggesting to find allies is nice but nobody wants to fight the dragon (we don't either but it is seemingly the only way to advance the main story line.)

Do you have the Orb spells? Conjuration creation is immune to to Antmagic Field. Attack physically it as has no DR and its AC won't be that huge without magic as well.

[SleepyBadger]

Then it can't use its breath weapon, loses its DR/magic, and can't cast spells.
Do you have the Orb spells? Conjuration creation is immune to to Antmagic Field. Attack physically it as has no DR and its AC won't be that huge without magic as well.
That's true but it still has its physical weapons and it can grapple and crush etc. And of course our buffs wouldn't work either if we move into melee range. Orb spells are a great suggestion though if we sacrifice some buffs.

[tyckspoon]

Sucker it into running into a Prismatic Wall? *shrug* My first goal would actually be to cut its support out from under it- find out where those wizards and clerics live and go kill them. Or engage the dragon, fight defensively until they come out to help it, get rid of them, and then run away to prepare to take on the dragon itself.

What kind of area are you going to be fighting in? Is there any chance you can use things like Wall of Stone/Stone Shape/Earthquake to rearrange the zone for a better chance? Like, say, Wall of Stoning a dragon-sized corridor into a normal-sized one so the dragon has to squeeze to fight you there, or drop its AMF so it can try breathing down it?

[aquaticrna]

i would say use some of your substantial resources to figure out where these powerful minions are and drop in and kill them first, you've met them so that makes scrying not too hard, though if you can lure them out in a fight and get a little blood on your sword it's even better. then once the reinforcements are gone go for the dragon (as soon as possible). once you teleport in use your surprise round to shut it down as much as possible, either dish out a flurry of maximized damage spells or hit it with some hold monsters and other save or lose spells. when the amf comes up start in with the orbs or other no SR spells, there are a surprisingly large number of them. Anyone without the ability to fling spells at it should engage and do what they can before getting grappled, they should only need to survive for a couple of rounds while keeping the dragon busy. some smoke sticks could be handy as an easy way of getting mundane concealment to ease the hurt a little

edit: partly ninja-ed

[Aharon]

I don't want to derail the thread, so first an suggestion: Reach weapons? Enlarge the Ranger and the Duskblade, now they can stand outside the AMF and attack the Dragon with reach weapons. (That's just what first came to my mind, because I actually just want to ask something :smallbiggrin:)

Could you please explain why you think your DM's reading of the AMF is wrong? I always thought it worked that way, too.

[SleepyBadger]

i would say use some of your substantial resources to figure out where these powerful minions are and drop in and kill them first, you've met them so that makes scrying not too hard, though if you can lure them out in a fight and get a little blood on your sword it's even better. then once the reinforcements are gone go for the dragon (as soon as possible). once you teleport in use your surprise round to shut it down as much as possible, either dish out a flurry of maximized damage spells or hit it with some hold monsters and other save or lose spells. when the amf comes up start in with the orbs or other no SR spells, there are a surprisingly large number of them. Anyone without the ability to fling spells at it should engage and do what they can before getting grappled, they should only need to survive for a couple of rounds while keeping the dragon busy. some smoke sticks could be handy as an easy way of getting mundane concealment to ease the hurt a little

edit: partly ninja-ed
Ehm... sorry I wasn't specific enough. Getting rid of the minions was easy enough the first time but for the second encounter the dragon seemed to have recruited new ones so I guess we have to assume that he has a standard supply of them and can call for assistance or something. Maximized spells are out I'm afraid as our mystic theurge doesn't have the feat and we can't afford a rod as we are very low on our budget because of the repeated true resurrections. We could buy some cheap items like scrolls but that's it.

[tyckspoon]

Could you please explain why you think your DM's reading of the AMF is wrong? I always thought it worked that way, too.

Technicality of how points-of-origin work in D&D. They don't come from 'the creature' as a whole- you actually pick a grid intersection as the starting point and measure out from there (which means that your typical 10-foot radius, for example, actually extends further to one side of a standard 5-foot-space creature than the other.) For an especially large creature, this means a smaller emanation like, say, an AMF.. can actually fail to cover the entire thing, especially if it wants any area extending outward to cover its opponents too. A lot (probably a majority, really, because this is a very technical and annoying part of the rules) of people just play it that the area of the effect starts at the boundaries of the creature's space instead, which effectively extends the area of these effects by a fairly large amount.

[SleepyBadger]

I don't want to derail the thread, so first an suggestion: Reach weapons? Enlarge the Ranger and the Duskblade, now they can stand outside the AMF and attack the Dragon with reach weapons. (That's just what first came to my mind, because I actually just want to ask something :smallbiggrin:)

Could you please explain why you think your DM's reading of the AMF is wrong? I always thought it worked that way, too.
No, I guess not quite. An antimagic field is a 10 ft radius emanation and the description specifically states that a creature that is larger than that would have body parts outside the barrier, which would be unaffected by the field. (So I presume we could attack its tail or something or of course ready spells to hit its neck.)


What kind of area are you going to be fighting in? Is there any chance you can use things like Wall of Stone/Stone Shape/Earthquake to rearrange the zone for a better chance? Like, say, Wall of Stoning a dragon-sized corridor into a normal-sized one so the dragon has to squeeze to fight you there, or drop its AMF so it can try breathing down it?
Hm, that's a suggestion... although its main cave is quite gigantic... how would you lure it into a corridor?

[aquaticrna]

hm... well it sounds like you've got a pretty limited set of resources... in that case i would say either, do something else for a while to earn money, or look into spells like "hide from dragons" so you can move in to optimal position without the dragons notice or use it to escape...

[SleepyBadger]

hm... well it sounds like you've got a pretty limited set of resources... in that case i would say either, do something else for a while to earn money, or look into spells like "hide from dragons" so you can move in to optimal position without the dragons notice or use it to escape...
Yep we would need the hide from dragons spell just to do something else and earn money as it knows us well enough now :smallbiggrin: And we don't want to fight it on its own terms...

[aquaticrna]

so out of curiosity, exactly how much money do you have to spare right now?

[SleepyBadger]

so out of curiosity, exactly how much money do you have to spare right now?
It's about 15000gp between the four of us.

[Metahuman1]

Transmute rock too lava? On the cave roof?

Thats my first impulse anyway.

[NNescio]

Transmute rock too lava? On the cave roof?

Thats my first impulse anyway.

You have better things to do if you have access to 9th-level spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)

[Slipperychicken]

A tactic I've heard thrown around the forums with regard to AMFs is dropping shrunken items down into the AMF, possibly using an unseen servant or something to do the dropping for you. Shrunken Item (preferably something really big beforehand like a boulder) hits the AMF, returns to normal size and deals quite a bit of falling damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) (I read it as only the distance-damage maxing at 20d6, while weight isn't capped. might need a more expert opinion on that though). Along that train of thought, you can make your ranger feel useful by getting truly massive ammunition, shrinking it down, and having him fire it into the AMF, at the dragon; again, let the munition expand for massive damage. The hat-trick might also be helpful for escaping.


One of the above posters made me think, if you have access to lava, Shrink Item a bunch of it into clothlike material (then perhaps wrap it around your rangers arrows) and shoot it at the dragon, in the AMF. Dragon is now covered in lava. And since Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell with no material components, you can do this until you feel you have enough d6s to take it down.

[Anderlith]

As long as the Duskblade has blade of blood, shocking grasp, & a teleport spell they could throw at least 8d6 plus quick cast an extra 5d6 in addition to whatever weapon/buffs/etc. Just send him in & have them teleport & strike a few times

[aquaticrna]

drop about 5k into alchemist fire, place in bag of holding, cast fly and hid from dragons, teleport in above the dragon, empty bag, if he's still standing finish off his few remaining hit points... works better against white dragons, but should do just fine, if you want to make it more likely to work, teleport in with hide from dragons only on the dropper, wait for the amf to go up then drop them so there is no way he can magically prevent the damage. Worst case scenario you just did 250 damage to him and even if he's a great wyrm he's at half heath.

edit: you can put in 10k to make it 500 guaranteed damage assuring his one round doom.

[SleepyBadger]

A tactic I've heard thrown around the forums with regard to AMFs is dropping shrunken items down into the AMF, possibly using an unseen servant or something to do the dropping for you. Shrunken Item (preferably something really big beforehand like a boulder) hits the AMF, returns to normal size and deals quite a bit of falling damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) (I read it as only the distance-damage maxing at 20d6, while weight isn't capped. might need a more expert opinion on that though). Along that train of thought, you can make your ranger feel useful by getting truly massive ammunition, shrinking it down, and having him fire it into the AMF, at the dragon; again, let the munition expand for massive damage. The hat-trick might also be helpful for escaping.


One of the above posters made me think, if you have access to lava, Shrink Item a bunch of it into clothlike material (then perhaps wrap it around your rangers arrows) and shoot it at the dragon, in the AMF. Dragon is now covered in lava. And since Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell with no material components, you can do this until you feel you have enough d6s to take it down.
Yes I heard that too, although I guess we would start arguing about how much damage a large chunk of wood would do if turned into ammunition via shrinking and shaping... the lava sounds great though :smallbiggrin:

drop about 5k into alchemist fire, place in bag of holding, cast fly and hid from dragons, teleport in above the dragon, empty bag, if he's still standing finish off his few remaining hit points... works better against white dragons, but should do just fine, if you want to make it more likely to work, teleport in with hide from dragons only on the dropper, wait for the amf to go up then drop them so there is no way he can magically prevent the damage. Worst case scenario you just did 250 damage to him and even if he's a great wyrm he's at half heath.

edit: you can put in 10k to make it 500 guaranteed damage assuring his one round doom.
Are you sure about this? Wouldn't items in a bag of holding be inaccessible in an antimagic field?

As long as the Duskblade has blade of blood, shocking grasp, & a teleport spell they could throw at least 8d6 plus quick cast an extra 5d6 in addition to whatever weapon/buffs/etc. Just send him in & have them teleport & strike a few times
That's assuming we were quick enough to enervate him, otherwise this tactic does not work in an AMF with a 10 ft radius measured from the dragons hide.

[Tvtyrant]

Disjunction the AMF and then go at it as normal? Gate/Planar Bind a grapple machine and let it try its hand.

[SleepyBadger]

Disjunction the AMF and then go at it as normal? Gate/Planar Bind a grapple machine and let it try its hand.
No can do. We can only use 7th level spells. Our bard can probably try and read some 9th level scrolls but with a low success rate.

[Deathslayer7]

Are you sure about this? Wouldn't items in a bag of holding be inaccessible in an antimagic filed?

If you are within range of it, most likely. But you need only be outside it's range of the anti magic field and above it to drop those alchemist fires on it.

[aquaticrna]

you don't open the bag of holding in the field, you fly over the top and just drop them on him, any flask that hits him does d6 any flask that misses does 1 splash damage, so even if they all miss, you're still dealing a few hundred damage. if he's not dead first round he takes 6d from each flask that hit round 1, granted he can take a full round action to prevent that, but then he's wasted a full round!

[SleepyBadger]

If you are within range of it, most likely. But you need only be outside it's range of the anti magic field and above it to drop those alchemist fires on it.
Hmm... that would suggest we'd have to do this in the open as the invisible flyer needs to be safely outside its blindsense range... which rules out rearranging its cave with walls of stone, but a combination of this and the shrunken lava boulder or tree or whatever could possibly do the trick... and we could still get lucky with the enervations :smallsmile: Thanks all, these are great ideas :smallsmile:

[aquaticrna]

hide from dragons specifically makes them imperceptible to dragons in all ways including blindsight

[SleepyBadger]

hide from dragons specifically makes them imperceptible to dragons in all ways including blindsight
That's a real spell? :smallsmile: Not in the allowed resources I'm afraid :smallsmile: So our mystic theurge would have to research it and who knows what level it would be and what components it would require...

[aquaticrna]

yeah, it's in spell compendium i think... it's a 2nd or 3rd level abjuration spell, lasts 1min/level or something like that, works for 1 person/level, very specific spell, but very useful when you need it.

[SleepyBadger]

yeah, it's in spell compendium i think... it's a 2nd or 3rd level abjuration spell, lasts 1min/level or something like that, works for 1 person/level, very specific spell, but very useful when you need it.
Wow will immediately check it out... how could I miss that? Spell Compendium isn't allowed either but it could still be used as a researched spell... Thanks :smallsmile:

[excruciarch]

Get to a big city. Find a strong NPC Barb/FB mercenary. Diplomacy (dominate, whatever) him into supporting you, buff him, make him charge and kill the wretched thing (spend a limited wish to autohit at least once, just for lulz, if it is a leap attack it can be like 250 or something damage). If he fails: go to the city and find a new one. :D

[Captain Caveman]

You say that the tactic of teleporting in and popping some spells off before he gets his field up has failed several times. To me this demonstrates you either have a reset button or you can escape easily. If either of these two things are the case teleport in and cast every single Save or Die spell you know at that dragon, eventually he will roll that 1 and fall over like an obesely above the CR of the party bag of rocks.

A slightly more practical option would be to counterspell his antimagic field.

Also if you want things specified for combating dragons look in the Draconomicon.

[*.*.*.*]

No can do. We can only use 7th level spells. Our bard can probably try and read some 9th level scrolls but with a low success rate.

Candle of Invocation nabs you the Gate spell~

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation

[SleepyBadger]

You say that the tactic of teleporting in and popping some spells off before he gets his field up has failed several times. To me this demonstrates you either have a reset button or you can escape easily. If either of these two things are the case teleport in and cast every single Save or Die spell you know at that dragon, eventually he will roll that 1 and fall over like an obesely above the CR of the party bag of rocks.

A slightly more practical option would be to counterspell his antimagic field.

Also if you want things specified for combating dragons look in the Draconomicon.
1. No reset button. Escape... sure. With the sacrifices explained earlier. So those tactics wouldn't really help.
2. Hm... Counterspell is good, although enervation is better... the lizard does have a few of these monster spells...
3. Draconomicon is banned as stated earlier.

Candle of Invocation nabs you the Gate spell~

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation
Ehm... knowing my DM this would also mean an instant death by the hands of an Efreeti overlord who happens to be the master of the one we summoned...

[Randomguy]

You could try using wall of stone to shut it in it's cave and waiting until it starves to death, but that's not very heroic. Or, better yet, leave a small space open and cast a few cloudkills through it to speed up his death.

Alternatively, trick it into running into a prismatic wall. You just need to hide the wall well enough. I suggest using the invisible spell feat, or, barring that, hide it behind/inside of an opaque barrier like wall of smoke, wall of sand or wall of water. (Illusary wall wouldn't work because of the antimagic field.)


You could also try infiltrating his lair: Find out where he's recruiting helpers, kill off some of his helpers and then find a way to get yourselves recruited. Then, coup de grace him while he's sleeping.

Or try scrying on him until he falls asleep and then coup de grace him while he's sleeping.

[SleepyBadger]

OK. So hide from dragons is lvl 7 and 1 creature / 2 levels but still very useful...

You could try using wall of stone to shut it in it's cave and waiting until it starves to death, but that's not very heroic. Or, better yet, leave a small space open and cast a few cloudkills through it to speed up his death.

Alternatively, trick it into running into a prismatic wall. You just need to hide the wall well enough. I suggest using the invisible spell feat, or, barring that, hide it behind/inside of an opaque barrier like wall of smoke, wall of sand or wall of water. (Illusary wall wouldn't work because of the antimagic field.)


You could also try infiltrating his lair: Find out where he's recruiting helpers, kill off some of his helpers and then find a way to get yourselves recruited. Then, coup de grace him while he's sleeping.

Or try scrying on him until he falls asleep and then coup de grace him while he's sleeping.
1. Well its cave has multiple entrances and it can teleport. Plus I'm not really sure how long it takes until a dragon starves but it should definitely be more than a human lifetime :smallbiggrin:
Infiltrating is cheeky :smallsmile: Coup de grace while he's sleeping? We wish!

[aquaticrna]

let us know what you end up using and how it works out, i'm curious to see how this turns out!

edit: well i was right about at least a couple things on hide from dragons =P

[Slipperychicken]

You could try using wall of stone to shut it in it's cave and waiting until it starves to death

Yeah, a gargantuan creature with lvl 15 sorcerer casting, 20 Int, fullcaster minions, and a breath weapon that does damage equivalent to being submerged in lava is going to starve to death if you wall off in its own cave. Foolproof.

/sarcasm

Swordsage'd

[aquaticrna]

[S]Yeah, a gargantuan creature with lvl 15 sorcerer casting, 20 Int, fullcaster minions, and a breath weapon that does damage equivalent to being submerged in lava is going to starve to death if you wall off in its own cave. Foolproof.

If only it couldn't get rid of it's own AMF!

[KingofMadCows]

You could try poisoning the dragon or exposing it to some kind of disease.

[NecroRick]

Kill of the minions, loot their WBL gear.

Dragon creates new minions? Excellent... rinse and repeat.

Eventually either the dragon will run out of minions, or the DM will start making obviously arbitrary rulings against the party to stop this. If he does, then you know that you're not actually supposed to beat the dragon.

Maybe the dragon has leadership? Not sure if this grants the ever-refreshing pool of minions you're observing.

[Saintheart]

Drop Wall of Iron on it?

[NNescio]

Drop Wall of Iron on it?

You can't create a Wall of Iron in midair though, and tipping it is a bit unreliable and wastes actions.

A Shrink Item'ed Wall of Iron (prepared in advance) would work though...

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm not really sure how long it takes until a dragon starves but it should definitely be more than a human lifetime

Considering that dragons can eat ROCKS and whatever else they happen to have on-hand, I think you're right. :smallamused:

[SleepyBadger]

let us know what you end up using and how it works out, i'm curious to see how this turns out!

edit: well i was right about at least a couple things on hide from dragons =P
Will do so. Next session won't be before next month though (holidays and all) so it might take a while.

[agahii]

If one of you have leadership you could make a crap ton of human ubercharger followers(fodder) and maybe a cohort all charge in and do ridiculous damage before being eaten. If they get to act before the dragon you could even throw on some wraithstrikes to make sure some of the hits land.

Honestly I think the reason AMF is not creature plus 15 feet is exactly this reason, almost impossible to beat a dragon with an all encompassing AMF at proper CRs without a mid to high optimization group which from what I'm reading it seems you guys are low op. I'd probably let the DM know he is reading it wrong ect. Though this does sound like a nice houserule for high op games.

[SleepyBadger]

If one of you have leadership you could make a crap ton of human ubercharger followers(fodder) and maybe a cohort all charge in and do ridiculous damage before being eaten. If they get to act before the dragon you could even throw on some wraithstrikes to make sure some of the hits land.

Honestly I think the reason AMF is not creature plus 15 feet is exactly this reason, almost impossible to beat a dragon with an all encompassing AMF at proper CRs without a mid to high optimization group which from what I'm reading it seems you guys are low op. I'd probably let the DM know he is reading it wrong ect. Though this does sound like a nice houserule for high op games.
No leadership as per houserule. We only allow it if there's less than four player characters.
As for the AMF rules I completely agree. It's a CR 20 creature anyway so it doesn't necessarily need any further enhancements against four 17th lvl average characters with an extremely low budget. But the plot would really require us to get rid of the dragon, so we'll have to take our chances.

[agahii]

Well counterspell seems like your best bet at this point. The opposed roll may be a pain to beat though, away from books atm. Could have one caster set to counterspell any time the dragon goes for a AMF, uses up the caster's turn but uses the dragons also.

[SleepyBadger]

... The opposed roll may be a pain to beat though...

This is why we cannot really make use of it. It would occupy our main caster and if the dragon could still cast the AMF we'd be at a huge disadvantage again. Even if we could pull off the alchemist's fire cheese. We just can't afford to lose again so hoping for lucky rolls is probably not the best plan.

[agahii]

Well you only need to identify the spell which is Spellcraft DC of 21, countering with AMF will auto counter as per the SRD (should talk about a big circumstance bonus for this since it always casts AMF)

"If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results. "

So just have a few AMFs prepared for the first few rounds, should be able to kill it in that amount of time id say.

Honestly the dragon is I think CR 21 because it has 6th level spell slots considering it has to have a CL of 13 to have the spell (could be 12 but the age category jump goes from 11 to 13). So the dragon is likely higher CR that appropriate even before the AMF shenanigans.

[aquaticrna]

i don't know that preventing the amf is going actually make things much easier... i'd personally rather have to just keep a little out of range and it it with SR: no spells than deal with a dragon with all its casting intact and its breath weapon functional, with the amf up it has no possible way to prevent the damage your spells can dish out, just don't use acid

[SleepyBadger]

... Honestly the dragon is I think CR 21 because it has 6th level spell slots considering it has to have a CL of 13 to have the spell (could be 12 but the age category jump goes from 11 to 13). ...
You're right. Was just trying to decieve myself :smallsigh:

[KillianHawkeye]

i don't know that preventing the amf is going actually make things much easier... i'd personally rather have to just keep a little out of range and it it with SR: no spells than deal with a dragon with all its casting intact and its breath weapon functional, with the amf up it has no possible way to prevent the damage your spells can dish out, just don't use acid

Spells cannot affect it while inside the Antimagic Field. The only spell effects which can enter are those created by instanteous conjurations, such as Orb of Force. SR has nothing to do with it.

[BinaryMage]

Well, here's a somewhat vague idea. Antimagic field lasts only 10min/level, so if you could find some way to force the dragon to use up all his or her spell slots by repeatedly casting it, the dragon would eventually be unable to cast any more sixth level spells, so antimagic field would be out. it depends how much you can tank, though. (The idea would be to teleport in for a round, force the use of antimagic field, teleport out and do this until the dragon has no spell slots left.)

Alternatively, if the mystic theurge can do a quickened teleport, teleport in and cast irresistible dance (when the field is down), rendering the dragon unable to do anything but dance for 1d4+1 rounds. (That spell is broken!) Then, bring the rest of your party in and kill it. That would be my strategy of choice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Reach Empowered Shivering Touch to win in the surprise round before AMF goes up?

[SleepyBadger]

Well, here's a somewhat vague idea. Antimagic field lasts only 10min/level, so if you could find some way to force the dragon to use up all his or her spell slots by repeatedly casting it, the dragon would eventually be unable to cast any more sixth level spells, so antimagic field would be out. it depends how much you can tank, though. (The idea would be to teleport in for a round, force the use of antimagic field, teleport out and do this until the dragon has no spell slots left.)

Alternatively, if the mystic theurge can do a quickened teleport, teleport in and cast irresistible dance (when the field is down), rendering the dragon unable to do anything but dance for 1d4+1 rounds. (That spell is broken!) Then, bring the rest of your party in and kill it. That would be my strategy of choice.
Ehm... don't you think the dragon might just recognize a pattern here? :smallamused: (Hey, it's those guys again wonder whether they would show up in another 130 minutes!) No, seriously we only have a finite number of spell slots to work with. You need heavy buffs, counters and selected attack spells against a dragon even without the AMF, so extra teleports are out.
Quickened teleport is something to think about, since our mystic theurge has the Travel domain. (She could not quicken the arcane version.) I think she has some important spell in another domain at that level though, will check with her. Thanks :smallsmile:

[Kansaschaser]

I haven't seen anyone mention the obvious yet.

FORCECAGE

It's a 7th level spell and it will persist inside an anti-magic field. If you DM rules that you can create the forcecage inside the anti-magic field, then put it around the dragon.

If the DM rules that you cannot summon the forcecage inside the anti-magic field, put it around your party. If you use the bared cage, then you can still make ranged attacks at the dragon. Since the dragon can't use his/her breath weapon with the anti-magic field, you can sit there for about 170 minutes and just pelt the dragon from inside (or outside) of the cage.

[SleepyBadger]

I haven't seen anyone mention the obvious yet.

FORCECAGE

It's a 7th level spell and it will persist inside an anti-magic field. If you DM rules that you can create the forcecage inside the anti-magic field, then put it around the dragon.

If the DM rules that you cannot summon the forcecage inside the anti-magic field, put it around your party. If you use the bared cage, then you can still make ranged attacks at the dragon. Since the dragon can't use his/her breath weapon with the anti-magic field, you can sit there for about 170 minutes and just pelt the dragon from inside (or outside) of the cage.
No. The DM would rule that the dragon wouldn't fit into a Forcecage and imprisoning the party while there are other casters around doesn't feel like a good idea to me. Although it could work after we disposed of the allies but the dragon would probably just get bored and leave.

[Ernir]

Too bad you don't have a good blaster. Direct damage to disrupt spellcasting tends to work, but this guy is likely to have 37 ranks in concentration and a con modifier of +9. You know, before he starts trying. =/


Since the dragon can't use his/her breath weapon with the anti-magic field, you can sit there for about 170 minutes and just pelt the dragon from inside (or outside) of the cage.

Antimagic Field is Dismissible, so he wouldn't be quite that screwed.

Still, that requires him to dismiss his AMF, which is a step in the right direction, I suppose.

[BinaryMage]

I haven't seen anyone mention the obvious yet.

FORCECAGE

It's a 7th level spell and it will persist inside an anti-magic field. If you DM rules that you can create the forcecage inside the anti-magic field, then put it around the dragon.

If the DM rules that you cannot summon the forcecage inside the anti-magic field, put it around your party. If you use the bared cage, then you can still make ranged attacks at the dragon. Since the dragon can't use his/her breath weapon with the anti-magic field, you can sit there for about 170 minutes and just pelt the dragon from inside (or outside) of the cage.

That is a generally good idea, just remember that the breath weapon of the dragon can pass through the forcecage, and your entire party would be clumped together, so all of you would have to deal with that damage. If we're talking about a CR 21 dragon, that's some serious damage, but if you think you can survive, the idea seems sound. The other thing, and I'm not perfectly clear on this, but according to what I read in the SRD, the Antimagic Field only protects the area which it covers from spells, and does not prevent creatures inside from casting spells outside the area. Since spells penetrate a forcecage, that might mean that your party just restricted your damage and clumped up together, making the dragon's breath weapon and area damage spells way more effective. But a forcecage still is a useful idea, maybe it could work.

[Kansaschaser]

No. The DM would rule that the dragon wouldn't fit into a Forcecage and imprisoning the party while there are other casters around doesn't feel like a good idea to me. Although it could work after we disposed of the allies but the dragon would probably just get bored and leave.

I thought you said the Green Dragon was Gargantuan? That means it takes up a space of 20ft by 20ft. That's exactly how big the forcecage is that has bars.

Your party is completey protected from all the dragons attack while on opposide sides of the force cage. Unless the dragon picks up a bow or a crossbow and starts shooting you guys through the cage, you will be completely safe.

Just make sure that when you put a forcecage around your party that everyone has some form of mundane ranged attacks. Crossbows are simple weapons, so that would be the easiest for the casters.

I'd say that any time the dragon casts an anti-magic field, you always cast Forcecage. Once the dragon learns that he/she can't do anything about you guys while on opposite sides of the bars, they will change tactics.

[SleepyBadger]

That is a generally good idea, just remember that the breath weapon of the dragon can pass through the forcecage, and your entire party would be clumped together, so all of you would have to deal with that damage. If we're talking about a CR 21 dragon, that's some serious damage, but if you think you can survive, the idea seems sound. The other thing, and I'm not perfectly clear on this, but according to what I read in the SRD, the Antimagic Field only protects the area which it covers from spells, and does not prevent creatures inside from casting spells outside the area. Since spells penetrate a forcecage, that might mean that your party just restricted your damage and clumped up together, making the dragon's breath weapon and area damage spells way more effective. But a forcecage still is a useful idea, maybe it could work.
Well you don't attack a green dragon without protecting yourself from acid do you? On the other hand his breath weapon doesn't work in an AMF. And his spells don't either. Otherwise every physically powerful caster would walk around with permanent AMFs and they would advance from tier 1 to tear -1. But it it true that it does not dispel any effects, it only suppresses them.

[BinaryMage]

Well you don't attack a green dragon without protecting yourself from acid do you? On the other hand his breath weapon doesn't work in an AMF. And his spells don't either. Otherwise every caster would walk around with permanent AMFs and they would advance from tier 1 to tear -1. But it it true that it does not dispel any effects, it only suppresses them.

Oh, okay. I wasn't too clear on the rules about that. If his breath weapon and spells don't work, can't you just buff your tank to insanity and have him/her tank the damage? Or you could summon things, the mystic theurge should have some summoning spells, and then use the summoned creatures to tank the dragon's melee damage while y'all dealt it damage...

[SleepyBadger]

I thought you said the Green Dragon was Gargantuan? That means it takes up a space of 20ft by 20ft. That's exactly how big the forcecage is that has bars.

Your party is completey protected from all the dragons attack while on opposide sides of the force cage. Unless the dragon picks up a bow or a crossbow and starts shooting you guys through the cage, you will be completely safe.

Just make sure that when you put a forcecage around your party that everyone has some form of mundane ranged attacks. Crossbows are simple weapons, so that would be the easiest for the casters.

I'd say that any time the dragon casts an anti-magic field, you always cast Forcecage. Once the dragon learns that he/she can't do anything about you guys while on opposite sides of the bars, they will change tactics.

Yes but the dragon won't just sit around waiting patiently until it gets killed... Even if per DM rule we could put the Forcecage around it it can still drop the AMF and teleport.

[BinaryMage]

Yes but the dragon won't just sit around waiting patiently until it gets killed... Even if per DM rule we could put the Forcecage around it it can still drop the AMF and teleport.

So, you said it was somehow integral to the plot. How, exactly? Is it guarding something, or do you have to glean some information from it?

[Kansaschaser]

My other suggestion:

Shrink Item on 15 boulders. If the boulder weighs 4,000 pounds, it would weigh about 4 pounds shrunk. A boulder that weighs 4,000 pounds that falls on a target would do 160D6 of damage. The same is true if you used Telekinesis to hurl the boulder at the target.

When the dragon casts Anti-Magic Field on it's self, then you cast Telekinesis and hurl 15 boulders at the dragon. You've got a decent chance to have about 3-4 sucessful strikes. That would total about 480D6 (average of 1,680) to 640D6 (2,240 average) of damage. If for some reason you got lucky and all 15 boulders hit, that would be 2,400D6 (8,400 average) of damage.

In fact, you should always carry around large shrunk objects and prepare the Telekinesis spell every day. You'll eventually train your DM to stop using Anti-Magic Fields against your party.

[SleepyBadger]

So, you said it was somehow integral to the plot. How, exactly? Is it guarding something, or do you have to glean some information from it?
If it was only for requesting information my bard could have done it alone without harming the dragon. That's what bards are there for :smallbiggrin: But it is indeed guarding something that we need badly and a silver dragon, living in the area would also very much like it to leave (or die) as the green is occasionally vreaking havoc in the towns and villages she's inclined to protect. The silver dragon is prevented by some obscure dragon code to go against it herself. My bard is a great diplomat but not that great so making the dragon leave was not an option really. And only the silver dragon could take us into its vault as it is protected by a gate that can only used by dragons. None of us is a gate specialist so manipulating the gate while the dragon is away or something is also out.

[SleepyBadger]

My other suggestion:

Shrink Item on 15 boulders. If the boulder weighs 4,000 pounds, it would weigh about 4 pounds shrunk. A boulder that weighs 4,000 pounds that falls on a target would do 160D6 of damage. The same is true if you used Telekinesis to hurl the boulder at the target.

When the dragon casts Anti-Magic Field on it's self, then you cast Telekinesis and hurl 15 boulders at the dragon. You've got a decent chance to have about 3-4 sucessful strikes. That would total about 480D6 (average of 1,680) to 640D6 (2,240 average) of damage. If for some reason you got lucky and all 15 boulders hit, that would be 2,400D6 (8,400 average) of damage.

In fact, you should always carry around large shrunk objects and prepare the Telekinesis spell every day. You'll eventually train your DM to stop using Anti-Magic Fields against your party.

Yep this suggestion already came up and we will prepare an arrow if we really have to revert to cheese. But this would actually train the DM to use this method himself. You don't need an AMF to make it useful as Shrink can be reversed by a well timed command word.

[Kansaschaser]

Yep this suggestion already came up and we will prepare an arrow if we really have to revert to cheese. But this would actually train the DM to use this method himself. You don't need an AMF to make it useful as Shrink can be reversed by a well timed command word.

Just make sure that you don't use Anti-Magic fields yourself and always prepare some Feather Fall spells. You can cast Feather Fall on object that are falling on you as an immediate action. Then you should have ample time to move out of the way.

If the DM decides to use hurled objects that revert back to normal size, there are a few spells that can help with that.

If the items being hurled at you are mundane arrow/bolts, then Protection from Arrows can help with the projectile ones.

If they are larger, then Starmantle can handle non-magical boulders.

[SleepyBadger]

Just make sure that you don't use Anti-Magic fields yourself and always prepare some Feather Fall spells. You can cast Feather Fall on object that are falling on you as an immediate action. Then you should have ample time to move out of the way.

If the DM decides to use hurled objects that revert back to normal size, there are a few spells that can help with that.

If the items being hurled at you are mundane arrow/bolts, then Protection from Arrows can help with the projectile ones.

If they are larger, then Starmantle can handle non-magical boulders.
Great suggestions although some will surely be debated. If you cast shrink on a large wooden object, shape it into an arrow or bolt and then use it as a projectile it's probably the best method as it will be faster then any object moved by telekinesis when it arrives. I'd be inclined to say that it would count as a magical arrow so protection from arrows wouldn't necessary work. The question is whether you could use feather fall on the chunk of wood qiuckly enough. (In our case the dragon could not as dismissing the AMF is a standard action. And if I was a dragon I wouldn't bother to learn feather fall anyway.)

[aquaticrna]

The question is whether you could use feather fall on the chunk of wood qiuckly enough.

feather fall is an immediate action, you can do it at any time (provided you have a swift action for the round and aren't flat footed)

[BinaryMage]

And if I was a dragon I wouldn't bother to learn feather fall anyway.)

Maybe not worth knowing for a sorcerer (or dragon), but feather fall only consumes a 1st level slot, doesn't take a standard action, and can save your life sometimes... The dragon might wish he had learned it if you use some of this cheese. :smallbiggrin:

[SleepyBadger]

feather fall is an immediate action, you can do it at any time (provided you have a swift action for the round and aren't flat footed)
I know. In fact it's a free action and not a swift one so you don't need a spare swift action. But if I was a wizard pulling off the shrunken arrow cheese I would make sure to reverse shrink immediately before it hits the target who then couldn't dodge it... and it would still do damage, although not nearly as much as with its previous flying speed.

[SleepyBadger]

Maybe not worth knowing for a sorcerer (or dragon), but feather fall only consumes a 1st level slot, doesn't take a standard action, and can save your life sometimes... The dragon might wish he had learned it if you use some of this cheese. :smallbiggrin:
For a sorcerer it is probably a must. Either that or a ring of feather falling. I'm not sure it has that many uses for a dragon. Don't think it's afraid from falling or from boulders dropping onto its head. In fact I just checked the exact description. We're talking about at least large boulders here so feather fall would not have any effect at all as it can only be used on medium or smaller objects (or creatures).

[Kansaschaser]

For a sorcerer it is probably a must. Either that or a ring of feather falling. I'm not sure it has that many uses for a dragon. Don't think it's afraid from falling or from boulders dropping onto its head. In fact I just checked the exact description. We're talking about at least large boulders here so feather fall would not have any effect at all as it can only be used on medium or smaller objects (or creatures).

This is a quote from the Feath Fall spell:
"The spell affects one or more Medium or smaller creatures (including gear and carried objects up to each creature’s maximum load) or objects, or the equivalent in larger creatures: A Large creature or object counts as two Medium creatures or objects, a Huge creature or object counts as two Large creatures or objects, and so forth."

Granite(Common Stone) weighs 168 pounds per cubic foot.

A boulder that is 5ft by 5ft by 5ft (a 5 foot cube) would weigh 37,800 pounds and it would take up the volume of 225 cubic feet. So any "boulder" that weighs less than 37,800 pounds would be a Medium Object. A Large boulder that takes up a 10 foot cube would weigh 302,400 pounds.

If Feather Fall can affect 1 medium sized object per caster level, then at 17th level you can cast Feather Fall on a Colossal Object and one Medium object at the same time. Or, you can cast it on two Gargantuan Objects and one Medium Object. Or, one Gargantuan, two Huge, and one Medium Object. Or,.... Well, you get the picture by now.

If someone were to get a bould the size of a Colossal Creature to fall on you, at 17th level, Feather Fall could slow the falling speed of a 19,353,600 pound boulder to just 60 feet per round. No reflex save is necessary to avoid such a slow moving object. You just need to make sure you move out of the way before it touches down.

EDIT: As a side note, if someone were to drop a Colossal sized boulder on you and you don't avoid the impact, it's probably an instant kill since it could do 774,144D6 of damage. That's an average of 2,709,504 damage.

[SleepyBadger]

This is a quote from the Feath Fall spell:
"The spell affects one or more Medium or smaller creatures (including gear and carried objects up to each creature’s maximum load) or objects, or the equivalent in larger creatures: A Large creature or object counts as two Medium creatures or objects, a Huge creature or object counts as two Large creatures or objects, and so forth."

Granite(Common Stone) weighs 168 pounds per square foot.

A boulder that is 5ft by 5ft by 5ft (a 5 foot cube) would weigh 37,800 pounds and it would take up the volume of 225 cubic feet. So any "boulder" that weighs less than 37,800 pounds would be a Medium Object. A Large boulder that takes up a 10 foot cube would weigh 302,400 pounds.

If Feather Fall can affect 1 medium sized object per caster level, then at 17th level you can cast Feather Fall on a Colossal Object and one Medium object at the same time. Or, you can cast it on two Gargantuan Objects and one Medium Object. Or, one Gargantuan, two Huge, and one Medium Object. Or,.... Well, you get the picture by now.

If someone were to get a bould the size of a Colossal Creature to fall on you, at 17th level, Feather Fall could slow the falling speed of a 19,353,600 pound boulder to just 60 feet per round. No reflex save is necessary to avoid such a slow moving object. You just need to make sure you move out of the way before it touches down.

EDIT: As a side note, if someone were to drop a Colossal sized boulder on you and you don't avoid the impact, it's probably an instant kill since it could do 774,144D6 of damage. That's an average of 2,709,504 damage.

You're absolutely right. In the respect that as far as I remebered you could only substitute two M sized creatures with an L sized one but I can see that the spell vaguely mentions objects too.
As for your interpretation about "medium object" though... I guess if that problem ever comes up in the campaigns I'm currently DMing I would probably add a house-rule for clarification: a medium-object weighs no more than 25 pounds (being the standard unit for telekinesis), maybe even with a level cap as telekinesis has. Not sure though since feather fall doesn't. A 5 ft cube made out of lead is no medium object. Period. A quarterstaff would fit into a 5 ft cube and it is size L. But I guess we've been slightly off-topic for a while now.
EDIT: OFF: I guess I'm just not the type of DM who enjoys crushing the party with colossal borders. Must be too soft or something.

[excruciarch]

Yes but the dragon won't just sit around waiting patiently until it gets killed... Even if per DM rule we could put the Forcecage around it it can still drop the AMF and teleport.

Dimensional anchor (no save) + Forcecage (can be destroyed by Disintegration though). Cage is a 20ft cube and your Gargantuan dragon fits in it by RAW (he's basically 20ft*20ft*15ft, if your DM says it has a tail- kill him :D).
PS
Overcoming SR27 can be a headache though.

[NNescio]

Is Forcecage immune to AMF? I've seen arguments going both ways since it's unclear whether it inherits that property from Wall of Force.

Or, in other words, is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) legal?

[SleepyBadger]

Is Forcecage immune to AMF? I've seen arguments going both ways since it's unclear whether it inherits that property from Wall of Force.

Or, in other words, is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) legal?
I think (but am not 100% sure either) force effects generally ignore the AMF so that dragon must have had a custom one too...

[excruciarch]

Is Forcecage immune to AMF? I've seen arguments going both ways since it's unclear whether it inherits that property from Wall of Force.

Or, in other words, is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) legal?


Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
Forcecage is basically Cube of force. Therefore if cast it remains still after AMF is activated.

Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.