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Yitzi
2011-07-13, 04:53 PM
This thread is my idea for how to fix the cleric, so as to avoid the "clericzilla" phenomenon. It comes in 3 parts:
1. The minimal fix is meant to depower the cleric to a strong tier 3 as opposed to tier 1. Clerics will still be the best melee combatants with a medium BAB, and will in fact be arguably superior to rangers, but will be inferior to paladins.
2. The standard fix is based on the idea that when you get right down to it, you don't expect the classic cleric archetype to be swinging a sword on a regular basis. It is very much not a physical combat class (but is slightly better at it than a wizard or sorcerer), and is aimed for a weak tier 3 or strong tier 4. It does not include the minimal fix.
3. The battle cleric is just what it sounds like; it's designed to go along with the standard fix, and use spells to improve its own combat effectiveness (somewhat similar in style to a paladin, but far more spell-based).

It's also necessary to fix Gate; I provided my approach in my wizard fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205725)

First, the minimal fix:

-Divine Power and Righteous Might each have a 1-round casting time. (That way, they can't be quickened, so using one of them to keep up with the full-BAB classes, or both to surpass them, means you miss out on the beginning of the fight.)
-I said this is Core, but for those who want to use it for more general, make sure to ban Divine Metamagic and change nightsticks to allow the channeling of positive/negative energy without using a turning attempt (so it can be used for actual turning, but not other divine-substitution feats.)


Now, the standard fix:

-Remove Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might from the Cleric list (keep Righteous Might on the Strength domain list, though.)
-The War domain is banned. If you want to play a war-domain cleric, it has to be a Battle Cleric.
-Clerics have a d6 hit die, a poor BAB progression, and proficiency with simple weapons and light armor only (as the cloistered cleric).


And now for the Battle Cleric:


Class skills and weapon/armor proficiencies are exactly the same as the old cleric.

Hit die: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

1st|+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Turn or rebuke undead, Battle Blessing|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|+1|
+3|
+0|
+3||3|0+1|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|+2|
+3|
+1|
+3||3|1+1|-|-|-|-|-

4th|+3|
+4|
+1|
+4||3|1+1|0+1|-|-|-|-

5th|+3|
+4|
+1|
+4||3|2+1|0+1|-|-|-|-

6th|+4|
+5|
+2|
+5||3|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-

7th|+5|
+5|
+2|
+5||3|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-|-

8th|+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6||3|2+1|2+1|0+1|-|-|-

9th|+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6||3|2+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-

10th|+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7||3|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-

11th|+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|0+1|-|-

12th|+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|-|-

13th|+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-

14th|+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9||4|2+1|2+1|2+1|2+1|0+1|-

15th|+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9||4|3+1|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|-

16th|+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10||4|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1

17th|+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|0+1

18th|+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

19th|+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1

20th|+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1[/table]

Spellcasting: A battle cleric can cast any spell from the Battle Cleric list. His caster level is equal to his class level, and his key ability modifier is Wisdom. He "prepares" spells just as a cleric does.
A battle cleric may cast cure and inflict spells spontaneously just like a normal cleric. A battle cleric who channels negative energy is therefore considered to have inflict spells on his class list (allowing him to use scrolls and wands accordingly), even though they are not actually on his list. A battle cleric has an aura and gets domains just like a normal cleric, and he is allowed to take the war domain (provided that he has an appropriate deity.)

Battle Cleric spell list:

Lvl0 (Orisons): The entire level 0 Cleric list, except for Purify Food&Drink
Lvl1: Bless, Bless Water, Cure Light Wounds, Curse Water, Deathwatch, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Detect Undead, Divine Favor*, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
Lvl2: Aid, Align Weapon, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cure Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Delay Poison, Owl's Wisdom, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Shield Other, Spiritual Weapon, Status
Lvl3: Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic, Heroism*, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse,
Lvl4: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Dismissal, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon, Neutralize Poison, Protect Form***, Restoration
Lvl5: Break Enchantment, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Disrupting Weapon, Raise Dead, Reinforce Ward***, Righteous Might*, Spell Immunity**, Spell Resistance
Lvl6: Atonement**, Mass Bear's Endurance, Blade Barrier, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Commune**, Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law**, Greater Dispel Magic, Heal, Greater Heroism*

A Battle Cleric may also add to his list any normal cleric spells that would gain +1 to caster level from a domain power.

*Not on the normal cleric's class list under the standard fix
**On the normal cleric's class list at a lower level
***If playing with my fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205725), which adds this homebrew spell.


The War domain spell list has also been slightly changed: Its 5th level spell is Righteous Might, and it has no level 7, 8, or 9 spells. (It keeps Divine Power as its level 4 spell; this is the only way to get Divine Power.)

Turn or Rebuke Undead: A battle cleric can turn or rebuke undead just like a normal cleric.

Battle Blessing: A battle cleric can cast spells more quickly than normal. Any Battle Cleric spell that would normally take a standard action or full-round action to cast may be cast as a swift action, as though it were quickened. He may still not cast more than one spell per round without using the Quicken Spell feat.


Thoughts?

DiBastet
2011-07-13, 08:25 PM
Use battle cleric with actual class abilities, maybe something based on domains as pathfinder, using bard spell progression (spontaneous) and the original spell list is pretty much okay.

Spell preparation is a problem, and higher level spells are other. There are plenty 6th level spells that can break the game, but they come late and so there's less problem.

Also, use pf fix to divine power.

erikun
2011-07-13, 08:46 PM
First, the minimal fix:

-Divine Power and Righteous Might each have a 1-round casting time. (That way, they can't be quickened, so using one of them to keep up with the full-BAB classes, or both to surpass them, means you miss out on the beginning of the fight.)
-I said this is Core, but for those who want to use it for more general, make sure to ban Divine Metamagic and change nightsticks to allow the channeling of positive/negative energy without using a turning attempt (so it can be used for actual turning, but not other divine-substitution feats.)

In my experience with combat clerics, this would do nothing. I generally don't waste my time with Quicken spell, and generally don't bother with DMM when I can help it. Taking one round to cast a spell before dominating combat doesn't mean they dominate any less. That would be like saying Polymorph/Shapechange would be balanced if it only had a 1-round casting time.

Divine Power grants a grand total of +5 BAB at 20th level, and far less than that at lower levels. The significant part is the +6 STR added into the spell; otherwise, you can just stick with Bull's Strength.

This does not depower them any, except by disallowing Quicken/DMM abuse as noted. They aren't weaker in combat than Fighters are certainly are not weaker than Paladins (unless you are talking about homebrew changes).


Now, the standard fix:

-Remove Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might from the Cleric list (keep Righteous Might on the Strength domain list, though.)
-The War domain is banned. If you want to play a war-domain cleric, it has to be a Battle Cleric.
-Clerics have a d6 hit die, a poor BAB progression, and proficiency with simple weapons and light armor only (as the cloistered cleric).

Much better, and what I would recommend if you wanted to remove the "combat cleric" tendency. We're still looking at a T1 caster, but it doesn't automatically make the Fighter look like a joke.


And now for the Battle Cleric:
Your Battle Cleric can't heal anyone without actually preparing the spell as a Druid; they lack the "give up any spell for healing" that the standard Cleric has.

The Battle Casting ability seems awkwardly worded, but interesting. Is the minimal fix supposed to apply here? Because it would seem very odd to spend a full round making an attack or taking a move action, for example.

Yitzi
2011-07-13, 09:54 PM
Use battle cleric with actual class abilities, maybe something based on domains as pathfinder,

Nah, the style of pathfinder domain abilities is generally x/day effects, and the battle cleric's only x/day effects are his spells.

The battle cleric does have a class ability, namely battle casting. The idea is that he can take Still Spell (or rods) and then begin buffing (or self-healing) at the same time he's fighting. The result is that a battle cleric "going nova" is an extremely powerful melee combatant...but he can't pull that off every battle.


using bard spell progression (spontaneous) and the original spell list is pretty much okay.

Thing is, using the original spell list doesn't fit the concept. The spells that I removed are generally the less martial spells, or those that provide an alternative to physical combat rather than enhancing it.


Spell preparation is a problem

How so?


and higher level spells are other. There are plenty 6th level spells that can break the game

Such as?


Also, use pf fix to divine power.

It's an interesting idea, but I want Divine Power to be the same "imitate a warrior" spell it is in Core.


In my experience with combat clerics, this would do nothing. I generally don't waste my time with Quicken spell, and generally don't bother with DMM when I can help it. Taking one round to cast a spell before dominating combat doesn't mean they dominate any less. That would be like saying Polymorph/Shapechange would be balanced if it only had a 1-round casting time.

Polymorph and shapechange allow you to surpass fighter-types, and are defensively extremely powerful as well. A cleric who uses only Divine Power or only Righteous Might is at best equal to (and usually inferior to) the fighter-types. Now, using both is a different story, but then that's two rounds (perhaps half the fight, depending on situation). And even then, compare it to an enlarged fighter-type and it's pretty even (the cleric is better defensively, but the fighter-type will probably have more STR and generally other bonuses as well such as rage or feats.)


The significant part is the +6 STR added into the spell

Not really, as you can get that permanently with a Belt of Giant Strength (it doesn't stack.)


They aren't weaker in combat than Fighters are certainly are not weaker than Paladins.

How not? They have less STR, can't smite, have the same BAB and hit points (roughly), both get Divine Favor...the only advantages are the DR and size, and I would consider the size to be worth one round of combat (since the wizard can spend a round to grant it to the paladin, or he could use a potion), and the DR to be worth less than a round delay.


We're still looking at a T1 caster

How so? What broken abilities does he have?


Your Battle Cleric can't heal anyone without actually preparing the spell as a Druid; they lack the "give up any spell for healing" that the standard Cleric has.

No, actually they don't. "A battle cleric may cast cure and inflict spells spontaneously just like a normal cleric."


The Battle Casting ability seems awkwardly worded, but interesting. Is the minimal fix supposed to apply here?

No it is not.


Because it would seem very odd to spend a full round making an attack or taking a move action, for example.

I meant to allow a sequence of actions (so you can do both with that full round, just like you could if you weren't casting. Not that it's relevant for Divine Power, but it is relevant for a still CLW.) Fixed, and thanks for pointing that out.

Dryad
2011-07-14, 05:35 AM
The battle cleric needs more class features. As it stands, the slower spell progression means the batle cleric suffers from very slow progression indeed, which is a problem not so much n direct power, but in versatility and... Well; fun. I don't see a reason to play a battle cleric, since, with mediocre spell progression and no class feature progression, there simply isn't a point in levelling one.

Mind you, I am of the opinion that full casters deserve more class features (and less spell power) in order to make them more interesting. Full casters are generally (with the exception of the druid) boring as hell.

erikun
2011-07-14, 02:06 PM
A cleric who uses only Divine Power or only Righteous Might is at best equal to (and usually inferior to) the fighter-types. Now, using both is a different story, but then that's two rounds (perhaps half the fight, depending on situation). And even then, compare it to an enlarged fighter-type and it's pretty even (the cleric is better defensively, but the fighter-type will probably have more STR and generally other bonuses as well such as rage or feats.)

There is no divine law that states a cleric loses their abilities if they ever have higher Strength than Wisdom; the cleric can stick a 18 into Strength just as well as the fighter. A cleric using only Divine Power is equal to the fighter but with a +6 Strength bonus, something the fighter cannot acquire through items until around 15th level. (Clerics get the spell at 7th.) A cleric using only Righteous Might has +4 Strength +2 AC, damage reduction, size, and reach over the fighter.

Sure, the fighter could ask for an Enlarge Person from the party wizard, but they still come out behind in the deal. It also costs the same amount of actions, it's just that the fighter needs to wait for the wizard to spend their standard action before doing anything. The only benefit the fighter has over the cleric is in possessing more feats.


They have less STR, can't smite, have the same BAB and hit points (roughly), both get Divine Favor...the only advantages are the DR and size, and I would consider the size to be worth one round of combat (since the wizard can spend a round to grant it to the paladin, or he could use a potion), and the DR to be worth less than a round delay.
Smite is terrible, being a single attack a day that won't work against half of what you run into unless it is an all-evil-smashing campaign. Size is a huge advantage - excuse the pun - both in using any combat maneuvers and in keeping opponents from running away. (The spellcaster can't 5-foot step out of your reach anymore.)

The benefitical abilities of the paladin is the mount, either in buffing it up to exceptional levels or in riding it around for ubercharging. Beyond that, there is nothing the paladin can do that the cleric can't do just as well, including having a significant STR score.


How so? What broken abilities does he have?
Protection from Evil, Hold Person, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Dispel Magic, Speak with Dead, Stone Shape, Wind Wall, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity, Slay Living, True Seeing, Wall of Stone, Banishment, Word of Recall, Holy Word, Symbol of Insanity, Gate, Miracle, most similar spells, most divinations, and most symbols can work as an automatic "I win", as a save-or-die, as a save-or-become-insignificant, or just reducing any mystery or question into the single casting of a spell.

This doesn't make them automatically broken per se, but it is the same level of capabilities that the wizard has and allows the cleric to preform in much the same function. This is why the cleric, even a combat-oriented cleric with low wisdom, is still leagues above the fighter or paladin: When you can cast Bestow Curse and give any one opponent -4 on all rolls (or -6 to an ability score, severing most higher spellcasting) as a standard action anytime after 5th level, the paladin's one extra smite per day isn't much of a comparison.


I meant to allow a sequence of actions (so you can do both with that full round, just like you could if you weren't casting. Not that it's relevant for Divine Power, but it is relevant for a still CLW.) Fixed, and thanks for pointing that out.
Why not allow them to take the paladin's Battle Blessing feat, enabling them to quicken their combat spells?

Yitzi
2011-07-14, 09:04 PM
The battle cleric needs more class features. As it stands, the slower spell progression means the batle cleric suffers from very slow progression indeed, which is a problem not so much n direct power, but in versatility and... Well; fun. I don't see a reason to play a battle cleric, since, with mediocre spell progression and no class feature progression, there simply isn't a point in levelling one.

He's meant not to be extraordinarily versatile; he's more versatile than a fighter or barbarian, but not by all that much. (He can boost his versatility some, though, by taking an appropriate domain, such as Knowledge. Actually, looking it over there are some useful divination abilities that aren't on the Knowledge domain list, so I'm changing it so any cleric spell that would get +1 CL from a domain power is also on the list of any Battle Cleric with that domain.) He's meant to be primarily a combatant.

As for point in levelling one, there most certainly is. He gets an extra spell roughly every 3 levels rather than every 2, but he can make each spell go farther than any other class can (since he's mainly using buffs (even getting a couple that the original cleric lacks), and at a price of only 1SL and a feat can effectively quicken them.)


Mind you, I am of the opinion that full casters deserve more class features (and less spell power) in order to make them more interesting. Full casters are generally (with the exception of the druid) boring as hell.

Ah; my approach is that their spells are their class features.


There is no divine law that states a cleric loses their abilities if they ever have higher Strength than Wisdom; the cleric can stick a 18 into Strength just as well as the fighter.

Yes, but then they'll have trouble getting enough spell levels to be effective on only 1/5 their spells. (Going nova is of course more impressive, but all fixes must be based on the idea that such is a rare event.)


A cleric using only Divine Power is equal to the fighter

No, as the fighter has feats. (And fighters are also underpowered, and so a bad standard for comparison.)


but with a +6 Strength bonus, something the fighter cannot acquire through items until around 15th level.

How do you get "around 15th"? If he spends all his cash on it (assuming no crafting), he can get it by level 9. He'll get it far before level 15...and he'll get weaker versions even earlier.


A cleric using only Righteous Might has +4 Strength +2 AC, damage reduction, size, and reach over the fighter.

Unless the fighter is enlarged.


Sure, the fighter could ask for an Enlarge Person from the party wizard, but they still come out behind in the deal.

Not by much. Also, you're really comparing a cleric to a warrior; a PC class should naturally be substantially stronger than a warrior, such as a fighter's feat collection or a barbarian's rage.


The only benefit the fighter has over the cleric is in possessing more feats.

One might as well say "The only benefit the fighter has over the cleric is in possessing more feats." But that's enough to make one a PC class and the other an NPC class. So if that's not worth so much, it's a problem with the fighter, not the cleric.


Smite is terrible, being a single attack a day that won't work against half of what you run into unless it is an all-evil-smashing campaign.

It's more than 1/day as he goes up in levels...and it's not good against everything, but is a nice bonus. Paladins are very much less effective against nonevil enemies.


Size is a huge advantage - excuse the pun - both in using any combat maneuvers and in keeping opponents from running away. (The spellcaster can't 5-foot step out of your reach anymore.)

It's also not that hard to get...50 gp and a standard action for a potion.


The benefitical abilities of the paladin is the mount, either in buffing it up to exceptional levels or in riding it around for ubercharging. Beyond that, there is nothing the paladin can do that the cleric can't do just as well, including having a significant STR score.

And (with the minimal fix) having a full BAB at the beginning of combat.

And yes, the cleric is too powerful with the minimal fix. That's why it's not the standard fix; it's meant for those who want to keep things somewhat under control without changing too much.


Protection from Evil, Hold Person, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Dispel Magic, Speak with Dead, Stone Shape, Wind Wall, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity, Slay Living, True Seeing, Wall of Stone, Banishment, Word of Recall, Holy Word, Symbol of Insanity, Gate, Miracle, most similar spells, most divinations, and most symbols can work as an automatic "I win", as a save-or-die, as a save-or-become-insignificant, or just reducing any mystery or question into the single casting of a spell.

-Save-or-die spells can be blocked via Death Ward or similar effects. Most save-or-become-insignificant spells can be blocked via other spells...or for the few exceptions there's Spell Immunity. Fixing save DCs would also help a lot with that...I've got an idea for that, but that doesn't really belong here.
-Symbol spells are expensive and are only usable as traps. Useful if used intelligently, but quite limited in many circumstances.
-There is no spell that will answer any mystery or question clearly or accurately. Well, except cheesy uses of Contact Other Plane, but that's not a cleric spell.
-I did say that Gate would need fixing; I posted it elsewhere and so did not post it here.
-Miracle is (barring the high-XP-cost version) actually less powerful than its alternatives of the same level, just more versatile.
This doesn't make them automatically broken per se, but it is the same level of capabilities that the wizard has and allows the cleric to preform in much the same function. This is why the cleric, even a combat-oriented cleric with low wisdom, is still leagues above the fighter or paladin: When you can cast Bestow Curse and give any one opponent -4 on all rolls (or -6 to an ability score, severing most higher spellcasting) as a standard action anytime after 5th level, the paladin's one extra smite per day isn't much of a comparison.
-As for the other things you mentioned, I don't see how they'd be game-breakers. Useful, definitely. But not game-breakers (in fact, some of them decrease the potential game-breaking power of other spells.)


Why not allow them to take the paladin's Battle Blessing feat, enabling them to quicken their combat spells?

Definitely a possibility (now that you point it out; I'd never seen that feat before). I think I'll change it.