Yitzi
2011-07-13, 04:53 PM
This thread is my idea for how to fix the cleric, so as to avoid the "clericzilla" phenomenon. It comes in 3 parts:
1. The minimal fix is meant to depower the cleric to a strong tier 3 as opposed to tier 1. Clerics will still be the best melee combatants with a medium BAB, and will in fact be arguably superior to rangers, but will be inferior to paladins.
2. The standard fix is based on the idea that when you get right down to it, you don't expect the classic cleric archetype to be swinging a sword on a regular basis. It is very much not a physical combat class (but is slightly better at it than a wizard or sorcerer), and is aimed for a weak tier 3 or strong tier 4. It does not include the minimal fix.
3. The battle cleric is just what it sounds like; it's designed to go along with the standard fix, and use spells to improve its own combat effectiveness (somewhat similar in style to a paladin, but far more spell-based).
It's also necessary to fix Gate; I provided my approach in my wizard fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205725)
First, the minimal fix:
-Divine Power and Righteous Might each have a 1-round casting time. (That way, they can't be quickened, so using one of them to keep up with the full-BAB classes, or both to surpass them, means you miss out on the beginning of the fight.)
-I said this is Core, but for those who want to use it for more general, make sure to ban Divine Metamagic and change nightsticks to allow the channeling of positive/negative energy without using a turning attempt (so it can be used for actual turning, but not other divine-substitution feats.)
Now, the standard fix:
-Remove Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might from the Cleric list (keep Righteous Might on the Strength domain list, though.)
-The War domain is banned. If you want to play a war-domain cleric, it has to be a Battle Cleric.
-Clerics have a d6 hit die, a poor BAB progression, and proficiency with simple weapons and light armor only (as the cloistered cleric).
And now for the Battle Cleric:
Class skills and weapon/armor proficiencies are exactly the same as the old cleric.
Hit die: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1st|+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Turn or rebuke undead, Battle Blessing|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|+1|
+3|
+0|
+3||3|0+1|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|+2|
+3|
+1|
+3||3|1+1|-|-|-|-|-
4th|+3|
+4|
+1|
+4||3|1+1|0+1|-|-|-|-
5th|+3|
+4|
+1|
+4||3|2+1|0+1|-|-|-|-
6th|+4|
+5|
+2|
+5||3|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-
7th|+5|
+5|
+2|
+5||3|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-|-
8th|+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6||3|2+1|2+1|0+1|-|-|-
9th|+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6||3|2+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-
10th|+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7||3|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-
11th|+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|0+1|-|-
12th|+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|-|-
13th|+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-
14th|+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9||4|2+1|2+1|2+1|2+1|0+1|-
15th|+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9||4|3+1|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|-
16th|+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10||4|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1
17th|+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|0+1
18th|+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1
19th|+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1
20th|+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1[/table]
Spellcasting: A battle cleric can cast any spell from the Battle Cleric list. His caster level is equal to his class level, and his key ability modifier is Wisdom. He "prepares" spells just as a cleric does.
A battle cleric may cast cure and inflict spells spontaneously just like a normal cleric. A battle cleric who channels negative energy is therefore considered to have inflict spells on his class list (allowing him to use scrolls and wands accordingly), even though they are not actually on his list. A battle cleric has an aura and gets domains just like a normal cleric, and he is allowed to take the war domain (provided that he has an appropriate deity.)
Battle Cleric spell list:
Lvl0 (Orisons): The entire level 0 Cleric list, except for Purify Food&Drink
Lvl1: Bless, Bless Water, Cure Light Wounds, Curse Water, Deathwatch, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Detect Undead, Divine Favor*, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
Lvl2: Aid, Align Weapon, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cure Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Delay Poison, Owl's Wisdom, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Shield Other, Spiritual Weapon, Status
Lvl3: Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic, Heroism*, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse,
Lvl4: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Dismissal, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon, Neutralize Poison, Protect Form***, Restoration
Lvl5: Break Enchantment, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Disrupting Weapon, Raise Dead, Reinforce Ward***, Righteous Might*, Spell Immunity**, Spell Resistance
Lvl6: Atonement**, Mass Bear's Endurance, Blade Barrier, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Commune**, Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law**, Greater Dispel Magic, Heal, Greater Heroism*
A Battle Cleric may also add to his list any normal cleric spells that would gain +1 to caster level from a domain power.
*Not on the normal cleric's class list under the standard fix
**On the normal cleric's class list at a lower level
***If playing with my fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205725), which adds this homebrew spell.
The War domain spell list has also been slightly changed: Its 5th level spell is Righteous Might, and it has no level 7, 8, or 9 spells. (It keeps Divine Power as its level 4 spell; this is the only way to get Divine Power.)
Turn or Rebuke Undead: A battle cleric can turn or rebuke undead just like a normal cleric.
Battle Blessing: A battle cleric can cast spells more quickly than normal. Any Battle Cleric spell that would normally take a standard action or full-round action to cast may be cast as a swift action, as though it were quickened. He may still not cast more than one spell per round without using the Quicken Spell feat.
Thoughts?
1. The minimal fix is meant to depower the cleric to a strong tier 3 as opposed to tier 1. Clerics will still be the best melee combatants with a medium BAB, and will in fact be arguably superior to rangers, but will be inferior to paladins.
2. The standard fix is based on the idea that when you get right down to it, you don't expect the classic cleric archetype to be swinging a sword on a regular basis. It is very much not a physical combat class (but is slightly better at it than a wizard or sorcerer), and is aimed for a weak tier 3 or strong tier 4. It does not include the minimal fix.
3. The battle cleric is just what it sounds like; it's designed to go along with the standard fix, and use spells to improve its own combat effectiveness (somewhat similar in style to a paladin, but far more spell-based).
It's also necessary to fix Gate; I provided my approach in my wizard fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205725)
First, the minimal fix:
-Divine Power and Righteous Might each have a 1-round casting time. (That way, they can't be quickened, so using one of them to keep up with the full-BAB classes, or both to surpass them, means you miss out on the beginning of the fight.)
-I said this is Core, but for those who want to use it for more general, make sure to ban Divine Metamagic and change nightsticks to allow the channeling of positive/negative energy without using a turning attempt (so it can be used for actual turning, but not other divine-substitution feats.)
Now, the standard fix:
-Remove Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might from the Cleric list (keep Righteous Might on the Strength domain list, though.)
-The War domain is banned. If you want to play a war-domain cleric, it has to be a Battle Cleric.
-Clerics have a d6 hit die, a poor BAB progression, and proficiency with simple weapons and light armor only (as the cloistered cleric).
And now for the Battle Cleric:
Class skills and weapon/armor proficiencies are exactly the same as the old cleric.
Hit die: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1st|+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Turn or rebuke undead, Battle Blessing|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|+1|
+3|
+0|
+3||3|0+1|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|+2|
+3|
+1|
+3||3|1+1|-|-|-|-|-
4th|+3|
+4|
+1|
+4||3|1+1|0+1|-|-|-|-
5th|+3|
+4|
+1|
+4||3|2+1|0+1|-|-|-|-
6th|+4|
+5|
+2|
+5||3|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-
7th|+5|
+5|
+2|
+5||3|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-|-
8th|+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6||3|2+1|2+1|0+1|-|-|-
9th|+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6||3|2+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-
10th|+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7||3|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-
11th|+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|0+1|-|-
12th|+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|-|-
13th|+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8||3|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-
14th|+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9||4|2+1|2+1|2+1|2+1|0+1|-
15th|+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9||4|3+1|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|-
16th|+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10||4|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1
17th|+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|0+1
18th|+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1
19th|+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1
20th|+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12||4|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1[/table]
Spellcasting: A battle cleric can cast any spell from the Battle Cleric list. His caster level is equal to his class level, and his key ability modifier is Wisdom. He "prepares" spells just as a cleric does.
A battle cleric may cast cure and inflict spells spontaneously just like a normal cleric. A battle cleric who channels negative energy is therefore considered to have inflict spells on his class list (allowing him to use scrolls and wands accordingly), even though they are not actually on his list. A battle cleric has an aura and gets domains just like a normal cleric, and he is allowed to take the war domain (provided that he has an appropriate deity.)
Battle Cleric spell list:
Lvl0 (Orisons): The entire level 0 Cleric list, except for Purify Food&Drink
Lvl1: Bless, Bless Water, Cure Light Wounds, Curse Water, Deathwatch, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Detect Undead, Divine Favor*, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
Lvl2: Aid, Align Weapon, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cure Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Delay Poison, Owl's Wisdom, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Shield Other, Spiritual Weapon, Status
Lvl3: Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic, Heroism*, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse,
Lvl4: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Dismissal, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon, Neutralize Poison, Protect Form***, Restoration
Lvl5: Break Enchantment, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Disrupting Weapon, Raise Dead, Reinforce Ward***, Righteous Might*, Spell Immunity**, Spell Resistance
Lvl6: Atonement**, Mass Bear's Endurance, Blade Barrier, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Commune**, Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law**, Greater Dispel Magic, Heal, Greater Heroism*
A Battle Cleric may also add to his list any normal cleric spells that would gain +1 to caster level from a domain power.
*Not on the normal cleric's class list under the standard fix
**On the normal cleric's class list at a lower level
***If playing with my fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205725), which adds this homebrew spell.
The War domain spell list has also been slightly changed: Its 5th level spell is Righteous Might, and it has no level 7, 8, or 9 spells. (It keeps Divine Power as its level 4 spell; this is the only way to get Divine Power.)
Turn or Rebuke Undead: A battle cleric can turn or rebuke undead just like a normal cleric.
Battle Blessing: A battle cleric can cast spells more quickly than normal. Any Battle Cleric spell that would normally take a standard action or full-round action to cast may be cast as a swift action, as though it were quickened. He may still not cast more than one spell per round without using the Quicken Spell feat.
Thoughts?