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Hawkings
2011-07-14, 12:25 AM
Okay so I’m a relatively new DM that’s been running a campaign for a few months now but I’m only decent at combat and haven’t had much experience with making dungeons, I’m mostly a social NPC and roaming the city and fields sort of adventure DM, dungeon crawling is something I’ve rarely done as a player and even less as a DM.

Still I’m running my players through Xorvintaal, the dragon great game in Monster Manual V, and they’re up against the exarchs of a blue dragolich who specialized in undead and ghost type monsters. This isn’t the problem, I’m making a dungeon full of illusions and traps in order to ‘test’ the players wit and creativity, but the dungeon I made is perhaps too over the top and I’d appreciate some feedback on how to do it right.

The players are level 8 going on 9 and I have 5 of the buggers; the group consists of a barbarian, samurai, ranger, sorcerer, rogue.

I used some examples I got from a few different websites for ideas:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154363&page=2
And http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/clever-dd-traps

My DM teacher tends to heavily house rule and make things up to fit the story, I prefer to keep things as to the book as much as possible, I disliked when my previous DMs arbitrarily did things without any grounds and I’d prefer not to do the same, so if I have to change or remove a room or two that’s fine, if the CR is through the roof I’m also okay with shrinking it.
So here’s the setup:
(A1) First room is the raging silver fire trap, maybe tone the damage down, essentially there’s a protective circle in the center of the room, and everything else gets hit by a fire.
(A2)Room to the right is an endless hallway illusion with a treasure chest at the end, not sure of the DC on something like this.
(B1) Room straight ahead from the first is an empty room with three doors;
(B2) Right is a refreshments room with tea, snacks and a bathroom, it also has the “Variant of the spyglass trap - Peepshow of Doom” where if they keep spending 10 gold and watching a crank movie it’ll hit flesh to stone on one them, the cure is in a vending machine worth 10k gold, why so much is because dragons are greedy and it’s supposed to make them torn between curing a team mate or trying to go on without him; also the bathroom has an arrow trap in the toilet.
(B3)The room on the left is a tipping floor that slides based on who’s balancing it out on which end, the lure is treasure on either side of the room; if they fall they end up in an underground river that takes them to the dungeon entrance, not sure how much damage a river would do to them.
(C1) Straight from B1 is a trap room that shuts and locks both doors and sets a count-down timer with 5 minutes on it; the button resets the clock but when it runs down to 0 it unlocks both doors.
(E1) The next room is a hall of statues, they do nothing but be creepy.
(E2) Right from that is a room with a solitary weeping angel statue, it’ll move when they’re not looking and occasionally look scary, this is a Doctor Who reference and I know some of my players have watched it, I’m thinking it’s an illusion that responds correctly if destroyed, or maybe an animated object that is repaired, in either case it does nothing but follow them around and be creepy, right out of this room is back to E1 and more statues, suddenly the connection between the rooms is scary.
(E3) The left room has a barbed gate separating off a giant hoard of treasure, if they search they’ll find a button that releases a key-ring full of keys, all of which are fake and none open the gate. Assuming they get past the gate (probably breaking it, the barbarian has high strength) the hoard is a trick as well since the entire thing of gold, diamonds and golden items are all magically altered to look like gold, but are actually common rocks and clay cups, the real treasures are all on the side looking like common useless items like Gauntlet of rust, a sustaining spoon, a candle of truth. I might even toss a bag of devouring that looks like a BoH type 4 just to be a jerk to a greedy player I have mentioned in a previous post who tends to steal all the gold from the group, and the look on his face when he realizes he put an entire hoard of treasure in a bag he can never retrieve it from would be priceless… too much? Okay. If they get to the hoard it’ll set off a pressure plate and knock out gas will be released. Now this is where it gets a bit tricky on suggestion of my DM mentor, he suggested that I make this like a puzzle in Zelda that if they’re knocked unconscious or otherwise killed by the illusion nature of the dungeon, they’re teleported to the entrance minus an item, not sure how this can be done without massively complex spell combinations, considering it’s a dragolich I can see it being possible, but still difficult, is bending the rules to make the dungeon more interesting a bad thing? Having to retrieve their items from the last room after defeating the BBEG could be fun and give plenty of incentive, especially since I have a couple greedy players.
(E3-1)Past the hoard is a trick door, it’s a dimension door that teleports them off a cliff near the entrance. I’m sure the return to the start theme is getting obvious now.
(F1) Past the room of statues is a room with a spiked ceiling, obviously it lowers to crush the players after the door locks, there’s a hole in the roof big enough for one player to fit into, the rest are stuck to be squished and thereby from the logic if this illusion dungeon sent back to the beginning minus an item. the trick is that there are 9 runes on the roof and ceiling, picking the right rune deactivates the trap, one of my players can speak the language so this is relatively easy I’m sure.
(G1) This room has a bridge connecting two sides over a large chasm, the trick is that the middle of the bridge is a solid illusion that if they player passes a will save and disbelieves they fall through, a failure means they keep walking, mostly because I loved that skittle commercial where the kid disbelieves the rainbow and falls, I also like the idea of high rolls not necessarily guaranteeing success. I’m fairly sure solid illusions aren’t possible except as a shadow illusion, if that won’t work maybe it uses a wall of force that deactivates if someone disbelieves the illusion? Not sure if this is over the top, otherwise it’s just an illusion and they have a reflex save to disbelieve and catch themselves unless foolishly running, maybe goblins behind cover on the other side to give them a reason to charge…
(H1) This room has spikes on the ceiling and random pockets of reverse gravity that’ll make them fall up into spikes, doing so guess what, tosses them to the entrance minus an item. Fairly sure they’ll figure out to walk tossing a rope out quickly.
(I1)This is a fairly straight forward puzzle with teleportation squares that zip them around the room, they got to figure out a pattern to get through, no danger.
(J1) To the left is a room with stairs on the other end, once they walk up it the stairs turn into a greased slide and they wind up in the river, or teleported, at this point I feel a bit cheesy about that element.
(K1) This room has a locked and trapped treasure chest in it, holding a curse item that requires killing daily to gain its benefit, why? Because the dragolich loves evil, there’s also cursed paintings that if failed a will save sends back to the entrance.
(L1)This room is fairly straight forward, they’re in a room that looks like a forest, if they wander into it they’ll end back up at the camp site In the middle, there is a creepy ghost girl that tells a creepy story to unsettle them, the only danger is if they’re foolish enough to fall asleep here which would make no sense since their dragon would tell them they’re on a time limit, if they do guess what teleport, bam.
(M1) This room has the BBEG, past that is the treasure room with all their stolen goodies plus some additional trinkets.

My players are pretty sharp except the barbarian, so I’m certain they’ll fly through this relatively quick, the problem I have is if this is too much, I’m not sure what the CR for this dungeon is or what DC is reasonable for the illusion traps, among any other details involving dungeons I might have over looked. Again I’m not too familiar with making these so I’m sure it’s abound with mistake for everyone to have fun poking over. Any suggestions are more than welcome and I’m perfectly fine with revamping the whole thing, I just can’t find any illusion traps anywhere on the internet, so aside from hallucinatory terrain there’s not much to do. If I had to give an explanation for the teleporting, I’d say the killing factor is fake, when hit by it they realize it’s not real but something else knocks them out, a minion uses modify memory to erase this fact and teleports them to the start, after picking a pocket or two.

This is kind of a stretch and I’d prefer to avoid one of my players coming here saying how bad a DM I am for making this dungeon, I’d rather get it over with here before I even get to that point.

Essentially I’m a total noob at dungeon making but I want the Xorvintaal based ones to feel more over the top and different because it’s made by dragons playing games with each other using the PCs and NPCs as pieces, so a typical one would mean working for a dragon is the same as going solo, and that just doesn’t sound as fun.

OH and if anyone’s curious the idea behind this is that dragons moving a hoard into another’s territory gain points in the game based on how long they can hold it, so slowing down the enemy is the prime idea, the BBEG will in fact use disabling methods such as tanglefoot bags and sovereign glue then challenging them to riddles opposed to fighting, why? Because time is on their side and it’s the goal that gains more points than simply killing the weaker dragon’s pawns; this is briefly touched upon in MMV.
And no they’re not fighting the dragolich, it’s the BBEGs boss.

Hawkings
2011-07-14, 08:23 PM
Well no one responded so I guess this isn’t the type of thing to post about, my bad sorry to waste anyone’s time. Maybe I should just make treads about candle jack or some oth

Gavinfoxx
2011-07-14, 08:28 PM
Jeez, give it a little time, will you? I am not that great at this, but someone ought to come along. Please tell us more about the player character's builds, abilities, system mastery, and playing style, and the intelligence / creativity level of the player characters themselves.

erikun
2011-07-14, 08:38 PM
Well, not giving us a map makes it a bit difficult to visualise things. I mean, the barbarian may be able to sunder his way right through the walls to avoid the traps, but I can't say because I can't see how the rooms are oriented with respect to one another.

Also, you are expecting people to read and remember every single trap detail in two different threads to give some valid feedback. I mean, I have no clue what a "Raging Silver Fire Trap" even is, so I can't say how bad it is or how useful a protective circle is in the middle of the room.

I may recommend reading Bad Trap Syndrome (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/90/bad-trap-syndrome/), with Part Two (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/91/bad-trap-syndrome-curing-the-bad-trap-blues/). I'm not sure how much they apply to your plans or to your players, but if they just get bored or annoyed with the general "step on a tile, take damage" kind of traps, then they probably won't like a dungeon full of them.

Hawkings
2011-07-14, 08:59 PM
Sorry if I sounded rude or ungrateful, just kind of anxious because my next game is coming up and I’m not sure if it should be put off or just go as is.

Well, not giving us a map makes it a bit difficult to visualise things. I mean, the barbarian may be able to sunder his way right through the walls to avoid the traps, but I can't say because I can't see how the rooms are oriented with respect to one another.
Okay I see gotcha, let me see if I can scan something up.
Thanks for the links on making dungeons, much appreciated.
Sorry that it wasn’t very clear about the traps, I’ll try to avoid that in the future and be more descriptive with what it does.

Morghen
2011-07-14, 09:17 PM
I don't see this as that difficult a dungeon. You've got a ton of puzzle-y things but I don't see a lot of stuff that's actually going to damage them. They may get frustrated and try burrowing in from the top, but otherwise it seems like they'll just be temporarily inconvenienced by not having their stuff.

Of course, dealing with the Boss without any of their stuff will be a pain.

One thing I would recommend: Don't make the traps "pretend kill" traps. Make them damaging traps. No, the spiked ceiling doesn't "kill" you. It hits you for 4d6 damage and the instant it touches you it Teleports you back to the start. The second time they run into a trap where you go "Zomg! This is gonna kill you!" they're going to laugh at the silly illusion and the rest of the crew will head back to the start to grab their buddy.

Also, how high-powered is this crew? I know you said that they're 8th-ish level, but that's not what I'm talking about. Are they good at RPGs? I can't think they've been at this for a terribly long time, given the fact that they've got three stabbers and no cleric. Do they have tons of magical gear? Give us some more info on the players.

Hawkings
2011-07-14, 10:56 PM
Okay after reading the bad trap syndrome article I think what I should have asked is “How do I make a good illusion trick dungeon involving puzzles; thanks for that link its really helpful.

Here’s the map (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Vegitto-Kun/ddmap1.jpg), sorry my scanner isn’t very good, I labeled the rooms for quick identification.



One thing I would recommend: Don't make the traps "pretend kill" traps. Make them damaging traps. No, the spiked ceiling doesn't "kill" you. It hits you for 4d6 damage and the instant it touches you it Teleports you back to the start. The second time they run into a trap where you go "Zomg! This is gonna kill you!" they're going to laugh at the silly illusion and the rest of the crew will head back to the start to grab their buddy.
Yeah you’re right, making there be no real damage penalty would just make them strip their gear and bull rush through each room until they figure out the puzzle, putting in some damage will stop this, thanks.

We had a cleric who was very good both at RP and at his job but he had to move so we’re down from 6 players, they loaded up on healing potions and the sorcerer can use alchemy to make (I believe from arms and equipment guide) a alchemical potion that heals 1d8, this is useful for healing in between fights while cure moderate/serious wounds is helpful in a battle.

Info on the players: They are decent RP players, if I put them in a social situation with NPCs they’re pretty good at talking their way out. Some of them are sharp, recently I had a villain disguise himself as them and cause general mayhem around town and getting them blamed for it, the samurai instantly knew the villain was an NPC I had mentioned several in game days before hand, this is before I even had to explain why he could disguise himself as them so easily and the NPC never even interacted with them, he was just in the bar. The sorcerer often ruins my game by figuring out inventive ways to counter my plot or general plans through macguyver-ish solutions, the ranger is a strategist who takes awhile but generally comes up with a solid plan to approach a problem, the rogue is great at wordplay and talks his way more often into than out of trouble, the barbarian is pretty much a barbarian and walks into everything without thinking. So all in all I think they’re a pretty sharp bunch for a trick puzzle house, I think as soon as they realize the theme is tricks they’ll start approaching it looking for what the trick is, I also want to get them in the habit of searching for traps as they never do that, clearly my fault for not putting a fear of traps into them.

I’m not sure exactly what’s useful about the characters but here goes.
They have +1 weapons, and the rogue has a +2 rapier, the ranger has an masterwork exotic weapon gun (rifle), pretty standard armor in the group I think the barbarian’s ac is 20ish using a mithril breastplate but that’s about it, the others ACs are 15, 17 and 17 except the mage which is I think a 14. The Samurai is a PrC Iaijutsu master but uses a lot of varied skills since has extra points per level, he’s not a real optimized guy so aside from his Iaijutsu strike he’s pretty much a fighter with a good will save. The rogue is pretty standard except he’s using daring outlaw and swashbuckler to multiclass; he’s human of course, gear and equipment wise he’s pretty basic. The Barbarian is all combat and nothing else; everything about him is geared towards damage dealing. Ranger isn’t a variant except he used exotic weapon proficiency to have a gun; his animal companion is a dog for tracking. The sorcerer is a nuke type using fire spells, invisibility and scorching ray, so he’s an arcane damage dealer, I would suggest he be more versatile but he can’t think in anything but damage, I blame years of final fantasy for this; aside from that he’s super greedy thus the item taking and money illusion traps.

I know my players aren’t the most optimized minded or power gamer type group out there, this is most of their 2nd or 3rd campaign and I inherited them when our previous DM couldn’t keep playing, so I’m sure their gear is terrible for their level, they have money but would rather buy various items like cloths, horses or boats than get better armor or weapons; so they’re a bit squishy which makes it easy for me to kill them but I’m not looking for a TPK yet.
Unfortunately I only have copies of 3 character sheets because my scanner wasn’t working until this week.

My rogue came to me recently saying he hasn’t been able to do anything useful while everyone else has, he’s pretty cruddy at fights compared to the others and wanted something he could shine in, it’s been awhile since he did anything grand so I figured a dungeon with puzzles would fit the bill; also plan to put in a chase scene in a city involving lots of tumble jump and climb checks, like a parkour challenge, but this isn’t about that, it’s about the dungeon and how to make a good one.

Morghen
2011-07-15, 09:30 AM
We had a cleric ... but he had to move so we’re down from 6 players.Then I retract my previous critique. Do they have any kind of reputation built up? Maybe an NPC cleric approaches them. 20% of any loot in exchange for a legit healer.


I would suggest he be more versatile but he can’t think in anything but damage.Give them an underwater adventure. See how his lightning and fire do down there. Or a coal mine. Or a cave full of bat guano (which is explosive, btw). Or make them chase bad guys around somebody's palace. Or fight bad guys who are using hostages.