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View Full Version : Thoughts on reworking skill-based casting:



Hadrian_Emrys
2011-07-14, 01:01 AM
What think you lot of a class with a true, skill-based casting system? You know, where one's actual understanding of a skill determines a character's effective spell selections and potency? I mean, I can't see a balance issue with DCs based on something like 11 + 1/2 relevant skill ranks (1/2 the average, when casting spells with multiple related skills), rounded up + casting attribute bonus (for this class, it is currently Int)...

If you, the reader, were to take a deeper look at the base formula, the idea is that DCs would be determined by however many ranks one had in a spell's related skill(s). Thus, the DC for a spell cast with a maxed lvl 1 skill would be 13 (11 + [4 ranks divided by 2, rounded up]) + Int vs a good save bonus of 2 + related attribute. While the DC for a spell cast with the same maxed lvl 20 skill would have a DC of 23 (11 + [23 ranks divided by 2, rounded up]) + Int vs a good save bonus of 12 + related attribute. This way, max ranked spells will roughly have a 50% shot of affecting those of the same level (well, those with good relevant saves anyway) so long as the casting stat and the save stat are equal. Using the same attributes, it would also mean that those with poor related saves should, roughly, have a 25% chance to save against the same spell. I cannot think of any possible way to design a save system that is as fair OR makes as much sense given the way that skills and saves scale with each other.

As a thematic bonus, basing the spell DC potency on skill ranks (as opposed to skill checks) seems to indicate that it is understanding of the skill that shapes the magic, not personal ability. Should MAGIC prevent a crippled person from casting spells dealing with agility/mobility? I think not. With a class such as this, all that should matter is the caster's level of conceptual mastery. In a sense much truer than a Wizard, this class should exemplify the notion of one transcending one's own limitations through intellect as they strive for complete understanding of the world around them in order to force changes within it.

So... -what say you lot? Does the base premise interest any of ya, or do any of you seek clarification?

Domriso
2011-07-14, 09:17 PM
I have a few questions.

Is this essentially you seeing if there is interest to create a class whose basis is skill-based casting? If so, yes, I am intrigued.

Second, an easy way to get around the save problem is to use the standard "the DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 your level + your key ability modifier." That would get rid of the problem of the skills, but still make it scale.

My last question is, I don't quite understand this:


As a thematic bonus, basing the spell DC potency on skill ranks (as opposed to skill checks) seems to indicate that it is understanding of the skill that shapes the magic, not personal ability. Should MAGIC prevent a crippled person from casting spells dealing with agility/mobility? I think not. With a class such as this, all that should matter is the caster's level of conceptual mastery. In a sense much truer than a Wizard, this class should exemplify the notion of one transcending one's own limitations through intellect as they strive for complete understanding of the world around them in order to force changes within it.

Why would a cripple not be able to cast magic? This part is what doesn't really click in my head.

Yitzi
2011-07-14, 09:38 PM
A few potential things to keep in mind:
1. You'll have to ban skill-improvement items for the skills in question (or at least make them not help with the casting.) Otherwise it's just too easy to boost your casting ability to insane levels.
2. If you really go fully skill-based, that'll make key ability score less important in comparison to level when it comes to DCs, but far more important when it comes to everything else (i.e. max spell level and spells/day.)
3. If you go fully skill-based, multiclass casters can be nearly as powerful as single-classed casters (since they can alternate classes, just taking two or more ranks in the spellcasting skill on the casting classes. Or even take one level in the casting class to allow them to take full ranks in it, and then just spend 2 skill points per level to progress it cross-class.) Whether that's an advantage or a disadvantage is for you, as the DM, to decide.

Also, the difference between basing it on skill ranks as opposed to class level isn't whether it's based on understanding or personal ability, but whether gaining better understanding is a full-time job (so it requires class levels) or a part-time job (so it requires only a single skill.)

Hadrian_Emrys
2011-07-15, 04:13 AM
Domriso:
Yes, the thread is a two part project with the intent of both gauging interest in such a class/mechanic system AND getting feedback that may further refine the currently theoretical project.

That approach to the DCs would, indeed, be simpler, but would also have the twofold effect of making the saves slightly easier and undermining the thematic/mechanical system of basing spells off of skill ranks.

As for my cripple comment: I was simply clarifying that, while the proposed casting format uses a character's skill ranks to determine potency, actual skill checks would not be used. Thus, a spell based on Hide and Move Silently could be cast equally as well by an athlete and a klutz since Dex would have nothing to do with the process.

Yitzi:
1: As I stated earlier, skill bumping items would already be rendered impotent in regards to this casting style as the core mechanic is built upon skill ranks rather than skill checks.

2: Actually, given that the casting is based off of Int, the key attribute is monumentally important. Not only would it make the prospective class SAD, but Int also increases one's skill points per level.

3: While I haven't posted this aspect up yet, the current plan is to have this class purchase spells with skill points at level-up. Thus, while a multiclass character could easily maintain spell potency with careful class selections, their library of spells would end up severely limited.

As for the side note: I'm afraid I still stand by my original assertion given that this casting format divorces the character's skill ranks from their related attributes. The way I see it, this is a way to give a player a level of freedom akin to a point-buy system while still not violating 3.5's class-based format.


Thanks for the feedback folks. :smallsmile: If there are any more comments/questions to be voiced, I'm all ears.

nonsi
2011-07-15, 05:51 AM
I have one.

Spell powers come in many forms with all the game supplements (arcane, divine, psionic, invokations, essentia, binding...).

What are the spellcasting methods you were thinking of and which skills do you find appropriate to assign to them ?

Domriso
2011-07-15, 09:11 AM
Hm, well, another option for the DCs would be to make the save DCs based on 1/4 or 1/3 the ranks in the skills. This would translate into the following (assuming max ranks, of course):

{table]Level|Max Ranks|1/4th Bonus|1/3rd Bonus|1/4th DC|1/3rd DC
1|4|1|1|12 + Int|12 + Int
2|5|1|1|12 + Int|12 + Int
3|6|1|2|12 + Int|13 + Int
4|7|1|2|12 + Int|13 + Int
5|8|2|2|13 + Int|13 + Int
6|9|2|3|13 + Int|14 + Int
7|10|2|3|13 + Int|14 + Int
8|11|2|3|13 + Int|14 + Int
9|12|3|4|14 + Int|15 + Int
10|13|3|4|14 + Int|15 + Int
11|14|3|4|14 + Int|15 + Int
12|15|3|5|14 + Int|16 + Int
13|16|4|5|15 + Int|16 + Int
14|17|4|5|15 + Int|16 + Int
15|18|4|6|15 + Int|17 + Int
16|19|4|6|15 + Int|17 + Int
17|20|5|6|16 + Int|17 + Int
18|21|5|7|16 + Int|18 + Int
19|22|5|7|16 + Int|18 + Int
20|23|5|7|16 + Int|18 + Int
[/table]

Now, if we compare to this to the progression of saves, it looks slightly more doable.

{table]Level|Bad Progression|Good Progression
1|0|2
2|0|3
3|1|3
4|1|4
5|1|4
6|2|5
7|2|5
8|2|6
9|3|6
10|3|7
11|3|7
12|4|8
13|4|8
14|4|9
15|5|9
16|5|10
17|5|10
18|6|11
19|6|11
20|6|12[/table]

With the 1/4th skill rank progression, even a bad save progression will save 50% of the time, so long as their modifier equals the Intelligence modifier. A good save will save significantly more than that (and, when compared with the standard save bonus of 10 + 1/2 level + Intelligence modifier, either saves come out to being around the same power level at earlier levels, and lower than normal at higher levels).

1/3rd ranks hits a similar vein, though a bit more powerful than 1/4th level. In any case, it's still not hitting with the same punch as 1/2 skill ranks would be. And, for posterity's sake, I made up the progression of 1/2 skill ranks here:


{table]Level|Max Ranks|1/2 Progression|1/2 DC
1|4|2|13 + Int
2|5|2|13 + Int
3|6|3|14 + Int
4|7|3|14 + Int
5|8|4|15 + Int
6|9|4|15 + Int
7|10|5|16 + Int
8|11|5|16 + Int
9|12|6|17 + Int
10|13|6|17 + Int
11|14|7|18 + Int
12|15|7|18 + Int
13|16|8|19 + Int
14|17|8|19 + Int
15|18|9|20 + Int
16|19|9|20 + Int
17|20|10|21 + Int
18|21|10|21 + Int
19|22|11|22 + Int
20|23|11|22 + Int
[/table]

Now, that is obviously much more powerful, leaving characters with, as you said, a rather high power level to compete with. It levels almost proportionately with the high saves, leading to people with good saves failing 50%ish of the time.

All that being said, none of the options seem perfect. 1/2 is too powerful, yet 1/3 seems to be a little too weak, and 1/4 even more so. If I had to pick one, I'd go with 1/3, since that seems the closest to what you want.

YouLostMe
2011-07-15, 09:49 AM
I second Domriso's idea, DC use seems to be the way to go.

Skill-based casting isn't just hard to pull off, it's actually a terrible version of casting. When I'm playing Fable III, DA: Origins, D&D, Super Console, WoW, or using my speshul powurz in Bleach and Naruto, I'm not constantly worried about successfully activating the spell, I'm worried about properly using it, and whether or not it's strong enough. Having a player try to use a spell and possibly not having it go off totally sucks, because then you've wasted a standard action AND a spell slot and you feel like going home.

Instead, if anything is skill based, it's the DC of a given spell, or the SR roll. It would be fantastic, actually, if you had a skill called "Forcing fort saves with magic" or (since that seems a bit much) "Evocation saves", where the caster had to have that skill maxxed out to force good saves from it.

But at that point, you should really be looking into making the whole game skill based (like BAB can become a skill).

Domriso
2011-07-15, 10:07 AM
Mmmm, I actually really like skill based casting. I use the True Sorcery system in my own games, which is a skill-based magic system. It works in a fun way, and it's internally balanced. Sure, the spells sometimes fail, but that's not always a bad thing. It adds tension. Just like a blow might not always strike, a spell might sometimes fizzle; a sometimes, a critical failure on a spell is the most fun you'll have in a session.

On a completely different note, I actually did convert BAB into a skill (several skills, actually), as well as all three saves. Makes the game more fun, in my personal opinion.

Yitzi
2011-07-15, 11:59 AM
1: As I stated earlier, skill bumping items would already be rendered impotent in regards to this casting style as the core mechanic is built upon skill ranks rather than skill checks.

Ah, I missed that. Basing it off ranks would help.


3: While I haven't posted this aspect up yet, the current plan is to have this class purchase spells with skill points at level-up. Thus, while a multiclass character could easily maintain spell potency with careful class selections, their library of spells would end up severely limited.

Still, a full caster (even with a limited spell selection) who's also got the partial benefits of another class could be somewhat overpowered.

Hadrian_Emrys
2011-07-15, 03:42 PM
nonsi:
That is an excellent question, but also one for which I currently have no satisfactory answer. What I do know, however, is that I intend to have this form of casting exempt from spell failure from armor like divine magic but have the source be personal rather than from an external source.

As for the skills used, I was thinking that (in the event that this concept is embraced) it would incorporate as many skills as possible. Simple spells would use one skill, while more complex ones would use the average of two or more. In addition, by having to spend skill points to buy new spells, the system would inherently help balance utility and potency while turning the specialization process into an organic extension of a player's favored spells.

Domriso:
Your 1/2 rank setup is one point shy of what I've currently proposed, in terms of DC potency. So, I must ask, what makes either too powerful? In the event that either system is used, it is much easier to bump saves than it is to bump skill ranks and Int score. For the most part, I'm expecting that 50% ratio (with good saves) and 25% (with bad ones) to drop as levels progress. Although, as I take a second look at the base saves of higher level foes, I'm already seeing a potential need for further refinement.

YouLostMe:
Again, the intent was never to make skill checks to cast spells, but to use skill ranks as the DCs for said spells. Of course, as I was saying to Domriso, it is starting to look like the save formula will need some work in order to remain relevant at higher levels.

Yitzi: If we are talking about current full-casters, absolutely. However, the spell list for this class is still in the alpha stage. So, if the class itself is designed with multiclassing in mind, the spell list should be as well.

jiriku
2011-07-15, 05:42 PM
A "skill" for which you do not apply bonuses or make rolls is not really a skill. That's sort of like how "Speak Language" is awkwardly jammed under the Skills heading. You might as well call them Sorcery Ranks or somesuch instead of skill ranks, because they don't function as skill ranks in any way.

But, other than quibbling about the label, I don't see a problem with what you're proposing. I do have to ask, though, what's the point? The save DC progression that you're proposing is mechanically very similar to what you'd get right now if you just made a class that had all of its spells Heightened to its max castable spell level for free.

What does your proposal bring to the game that couldn't be done more simply with free auto-Heighten?

Domriso
2011-07-16, 12:15 AM
The only difference between my 1/2 skill ranks is that I rounded down instead of up, since most mechanics in D&D are always poised against the players in that regard.

Honestly, when I look at saves, while I'm not sure of the actual design behind the mechanic, 10 + 1/2 level + key ability score is the general trend. As such, you usually have a gradual increase of 11 - 12 - 13, &c. By using it as 1/2 skill ranks, rounded up or down, especially if you make the saves 11 + 1/2 skill ranks + key ability score, you end up with the save DCs being 3 higher at the start and remaining that way (or, close to that) through all the levels. It is by no means crippling, but higher than is average. And, I'm not necessarily saying it's too high, if that's what you're going for. I just wanted to point it out.

Hadrian_Emrys
2011-07-16, 07:31 AM
jiriku: The idea had never been to cast by utilizing skills in a traditional manner, as that's what skill checks are for. Though, thematic conflict aside, the point is that I dislike the notion of diminishing returns on the use of a limited resource. Vancian casting has always been a tedious thorn in my side, but to make it so that the lion's share of a caster's spells had ever decreasing odds of success is just insult to injury. So, rather than adding to the list of near-mandatory spell selections for existing classes, I figure I'd give a shot at attempting to invent a better wheel by cranking out a new class with a new selection of better-planned/executed spells and mechanics.

Domriso: Myep, I was shooting for as near to base 50/50 odds at possible vs good saves. So a +2 (before Wis) Will save (at level 1) would be rolled against a DC 13 (before Int) for a clean base of 50% odds of success. At level 20 the same situation would be a case of base +12 roll vs a base DC of 23. It's not a perfect system, but it's about as close as I can imagine without REALLY rocking the boat.

jiriku
2011-07-16, 09:35 AM
Strictly speaking, "Vancian" casting doesn't require or expect those diminishing returns. In 1e and 2e, spells didn't have save DCs, and the odds of making the save were determined solely by the class and level of the target. 2e did introduce a number of higher-level spells that included saving throw penalties as part of their effect, but generally speaking, 80% of a mage's spells were equally usable against all opponents regardless of spell level.

Which is to say, there's lots of precedent for what you're doing, so right on, man. Perhaps you could instead set all save DCs as if they were spell-like abilities, using 10 + 1/2 HD + casting attribute bonus, as that is much simpler and fits smoothly with existing mechanics.

Either way, though, it's a big boost for casters that they don't really need. I'd suggest that making all classes bi-attribute-dependent for casting (as with the favored soul) would be a good idea to scale back rampant save DC optimization.

Hadrian_Emrys
2011-07-17, 07:02 PM
What an interesting concept. The notion of using Int for additional spells and, say, Cha for DCs has a lot of potential.

Strangely enough, however, your second paragraph has me second guessing making a class so much as a mechanic through which every existing class could convert skill points into spells.

While I do understand the desire to simplify the process, as well as utilize pre-existing mechanics, I suppose I should offer up some prototype examples of how the spells would work so as to clarify the intent of the new system. Once I have finished editing them, I'll post up a basic spell chain that (I hope) will help show the utility of using skills as a numerical foundation despite the additional math.

SuperFerret
2011-07-17, 07:16 PM
I've implemented something similar for my Pathfinder game, using the way they do concentration checks as a basis for it.

The check is basically d20 + Caster Level + Relevant Ability Mod vs. 10 + (spell level x2) to cast a spell, and then some alterations to make Concentration checks a bit harder.

It works out pretty well.