Tier 1 Characters

[DefKab]

Been reading a lot of these tier fights, and everyone says they're based on the average build of a class.

Druid, Wizards, Clerics, mostly...

Now, I'm mostly knowledged in Pathfinder. Just don't have the splatbooks to be a 3.5 reference, but is the 'average' wizard build really the most powerful average build?

See, when I look at Druids, and Clerics, I see a solo party... DnD was based off the four character party, and that's what puts Wizards so high is the support, but Druids and Clerics seem to be the only ones that have a chance of surviving alone.

I would agree that wizards COULD, but thats a whole lot of foresight you'd have to put into the character to pull it off. The spells prepared is what gets me... Is the average player going to choose the right spells to prepare? Because I don't think I could. And why does everyone assume that they have every spell? They have a list of spells known, beyond that they have to find the spell to copy, and if the DM wants to balance out their wizards, they'd have to have the Spellbook space too... I admit, most of the constraints on a wizards ability is purely Campaign specific, but I don't think the wizard could do well without the tier 3 backup to keep them alive. Thoughts?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Part of why tier 1 is tier 1 is simply due to their wide breathe of options. It doesn't matter if such characters have a spell that only works under X conditions if they either can make X happen or simply have it on a scroll for when it is needed.

Also, Saph did a handbook on Patherfinder a while back. I want to say the general rule is that all core classes are essentially the same tier just due to the same scale of options available to each, though.

[DefKab]

Part of why tier 1 is tier 1 is simply due to their wide breathe of options. It doesn't matter if such characters have a spell that only works under X conditions if they either can make X happen or simply have it on a scroll for when it is needed.

Also, Saph did a handbook on Patherfinder a while back. I want to say the general rule is that all core classes are essentially the same tier just due to the same scale of options available to each, though.

So, Tiers just measure the hypothetical range of options you have with the character, not the power, or effectiveness, of any of those options?

Kinda works against the whole "Wizards are OP" argument, doesn't it?

[LordBlades]

See, when I look at Druids, and Clerics, I see a solo party... DnD was based off the four character party, and that's what puts Wizards so high is the support, but Druids and Clerics seem to be the only ones that have a chance of surviving alone.

DefKab meet Planar Binding. Planar binding meet DefKab. It's basically a free whatever you need (fighter, scout, caster, infinite wish loop etc.)



I would agree that wizards COULD, but thats a whole lot of foresight you'd have to put into the character to pull it off. The spells prepared is what gets me... Is the average player going to choose the right spells to prepare? Because I don't think I could. And why does everyone assume that they have every spell? They have a list of spells known, beyond that they have to find the spell to copy, and if the DM wants to balance out their wizards, they'd have to have the Spellbook space too... I admit, most of the constraints on a wizards ability is purely Campaign specific, but I don't think the wizard could do well without the tier 3 backup to keep them alive. Thoughts?

The really good and versatile spells, the 'must haves' aren't that many actually. They're probably below 10 per spell level. Out of those you get 2 for free every time you're leveling up. If you can't get to scribe 6 spells in the 2 level's you're 'stuck' at a given max spell level you're doing it wrong.

Also, while having the right spell prepared requires foresight, wizard has all the necessary means to ensure he's prepared: Scrying, Contact other Plane, Legend Lore and all the other divinations allow you to make sure you always know in advance what you're about to be fighting. And this allows you to get the right spells (even if you don't have them in your spellbook at that time).

[Gnaeus]

Also, while having the right spell prepared requires foresight, wizard has all the necessary means to ensure he's prepared: Scrying, Contact other Plane, Legend Lore and all the other divinations allow you to make sure you always know in advance what you're about to be fighting. And this allows you to get the right spells (even if you don't have them in your spellbook at that time).

Yeah, what he said. And also if you are out in a dungeon, and you find an X in the next room, and you DON'T have the right spell to beat it, wizards also have lots of good running away spells. 8 hours later, the sorcerer has the same spell list, the rogue has the same items to UMD, the fighter is still a chump, and the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard have exactly the right spells to win.

[Big Fau]

So, Tiers just measure the hypothetical range of options you have with the character, not the power, or effectiveness, of any of those options?

Kinda works against the whole "Wizards are OP" argument, doesn't it?

When it comes to classes that have daily flexibility, such as spellcasters, the Tiers take a look at what tactics are common. The Range for a Tier 1 caster is from Tier 1 (CoDzilla, any decent Batman Wizard) all the way to Tier 5 (Blaster Wizards with no metamagic feats or PrCs, Healbot Clerics who don't take RSoP).


On average (as I said in another thread), the Wizard is still top tier if they have time to scribe spells (2 days/spell). Even without that, a little mutliclassing and they are good (out of all of the Tier 1s, the Wizard has the best PrC options open to him).

[DefKab]

Aren't we taking a lot of assumptions for granted?

If the range of the wizard builds go from 1-5, the average wizard build should be about Tier 3. Admittedly, a level 20 wizard can be nigh unstoppable, but lets not forget that they have to make it up to that level. The setting the wizard is in is just as important as the wizard itself. Barbarians may be a tier 4, but he's likely not going to die very easily until around level 5, when an opposing wizard is peaking. Sure, I've seen a lot of very well built 1st level wizards that can survive a CR1 dungeon, but that isn't average, is it?

Planar Binding is a Lvl 6 spell... For your support, you gotta wait all the way to level 11 before you can use it. Yes High Level Spells are powerful, but 4 HP a level isn't...

[DefKab]

When it comes to classes that have daily flexibility, such as spellcasters, the Tiers take a look at what tactics are common. The Range for a Tier 1 caster is from Tier 1 (CoDzilla, any decent Batman Wizard) all the way to Tier 5 (Blaster Wizards with no metamagic feats or PrCs, Healbot Clerics who don't take RSoP).


On average (as I said in another thread), the Wizard is still top tier if they have time to scribe spells (2 days/spell). Even without that, a little mutliclassing and they are good (out of all of the Tier 1s, the Wizard has the best PrC options open to him).

Should PrCs be taken into account for tier building? It's not the wizards class to build the Tier 1 character, then, it's the multiclassing. I'm just trying to figure out whether hypothetical tiers actually work in game...

[thompur]

Really, the Tier system represents the potential of the class. A blaster wizard is not using his best tools, but his potential is still enormous. A dungeon crasher/shock trouper fighter has pretty much achieved his potential.

[dextercorvia]

It's not just how many options they have, but how effective their options are.

There are enough Wizard spells that end or effectively neuter entire encounters even at level 1, that you are bound to pick one or two. That isn't Tier 3. Even without reading web guides, plenty of people pick up Color Spray or Sleep (hate the casting time).

[LordBlades]

Aren't we taking a lot of assumptions for granted?

If the range of the wizard builds go from 1-5, the average wizard build should be about Tier 3. Admittedly, a level 20 wizard can be nigh unstoppable, but lets not forget that they have to make it up to that level. The setting the wizard is in is just as important as the wizard itself. Barbarians may be a tier 4, but he's likely not going to die very easily until around level 5, when an opposing wizard is peaking. Sure, I've seen a lot of very well built 1st level wizards that can survive a CR1 dungeon, but that isn't average, is it?

Planar Binding is a Lvl 6 spell... For your support, you gotta wait all the way to level 11 before you can use it. Yes High Level Spells are powerful, but 4 HP a level isn't...

First of all, Lesser Planar Binding is level 5 but that's somewhat beside the point.

Secondly, you might want to take a look at this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12366.0) for what lower level wizards can do.

Third, the tier system measures versatility as well as power.



Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Can a low level wizard do everything (expected from a low level char)? Well he can act as a frontline if he really wants (mage armor,shield at level 1, blur, mirror image, alter self etc. starting from level 3), he can deal damage if he wants (either crossbow and a decent dex, or bull's str and wraithstrike from level 3 onward), he can scout (invisibility from level 3), he can buff (bull's str, bear's endurance etc from level 3) and has a whole lot of utility spells.

Can a low level wizard solve encounters with a single ability? Read Color Spray, Sleep, Grease, Web, etc.


I'd say even a low level wizard is definitely tier 1.

[Gnaeus]

Aren't we taking a lot of assumptions for granted?

If the range of the wizard builds go from 1-5, the average wizard build should be about Tier 3. Admittedly, a level 20 wizard can be nigh unstoppable, but lets not forget that they have to make it up to that level. The setting the wizard is in is just as important as the wizard itself. Barbarians may be a tier 4, but he's likely not going to die very easily until around level 5, when an opposing wizard is peaking. Sure, I've seen a lot of very well built 1st level wizards that can survive a CR1 dungeon, but that isn't average, is it?

Planar Binding is a Lvl 6 spell... For your support, you gotta wait all the way to level 11 before you can use it. Yes High Level Spells are powerful, but 4 HP a level isn't...

But even a wizard who is regularly played at tier 3 may be tier 1 next game. All it takes is him looking through the PHB, and picking a spell, with the thought, "Hmm, what I have been doing isn't working well enough, I wonder what this does". And if that spell is one of the many vastly powerful wizard options, wham, he is a powerhouse. When the tripfighter realizes that he can no longer trip things (because at high level, all thuddy monsters are huge with an absurd strength) he is screwed. He can't just swap out all his feats, all his gear, and be something else. The wizard totally can.

The tier system is weighted towards mid levels (about 6-13 I think.) Next most important are low levels, with high levels as least important. Even at first level, I can make a very survivable wizzy who contributes as much as the lower tiers through a dungeon. By level 3, a wizard can tank quite effectively if that is what he wants to do on that day.

[Frozen_Feet]

To put it in very, very technical terms, Tiers measure tactical and strategic value of classes. Being high tier doesn't remove the option of using bad tactics (a wizard can prepare the wrong spells or use them at wrong times), but it means you have more room for better ones.

You can compare this to chess pieces. A Fighter is a pawn. Usually, there's precisely one or zero moves possible with him. If you get real, real lucky, you might have two.

A Wizard is a Queen. If the Queen is cornered, it might have the same amount of possible moves as a Fighter - but if it's near the center of the board, it can have dozens of different moves, and thus influence the flow of the game in dozens of different ways.

[DefKab]

The tier system is weighted towards mid levels (about 6-13 I think.) Next most important are low levels, with high levels as least important. Even at first level, I can make a very survivable wizzy who contributes as much as the lower tiers through a dungeon. By level 3, a wizard can tank quite effectively if that is what he wants to do on that day.

The problem I see with this is that he has to know that he's going to need to know that he should tank for that day. Low level wizards CAN do anything, but they can't do everything in one day, and it's a gamble whether he can do what you need exactly when you need it. Again, that's mostly based on the campaign setting, but I'm trying to find the real world use of low level characters. I'm not trying to say that wizard isn't a tier 1 class. By all means, they are, but, that's just hypothetical. Would the average player pick up a wizard and be effective? Hopefully. Would the average player pick up a druid and be effective? Definitely. I just don't want to make the mistake of thinking a wizard being a wizard is OP.

[DefKab]

To put it in very, very technical terms, Tiers measure tactical and strategic value of classes. Being high tier doesn't remove the option of using bad tactics (a wizard can prepare the wrong spells or use them at wrong times), but it means you have more room for better ones.

You can compare this to chess pieces. A Fighter is a pawn. Usually, there's precisely one or zero moves possible with him. If you get real, real lucky, you might have two.

A Wizard is a Queen. If the Queen is cornered, it might have the same amount of possible moves as a Fighter - but if it's near the center of the board, it can have dozens of different moves, and thus influence the flow of the game in dozens of different ways.

This. This might be the perfect analogy.
I understand now.

[Big Fau]

Should PrCs be taken into account for tier building? It's not the wizards class to build the Tier 1 character, then, it's the multiclassing. I'm just trying to figure out whether hypothetical tiers actually work in game...

Not really. I just mentioned them because they can affect the tiers quite drastically (I doubt that someone could build a Duskblade/Incanatrix without it being broken by virtue of the Incanatrix levels, even with Duskblade casting).



Aren't we taking a lot of assumptions for granted?

If the range of the wizard builds go from 1-5, the average wizard build should be about Tier 3. Admittedly, a level 20 wizard can be nigh unstoppable, but lets not forget that they have to make it up to that level. The setting the wizard is in is just as important as the wizard itself. Barbarians may be a tier 4, but he's likely not going to die very easily until around level 5, when an opposing wizard is peaking. Sure, I've seen a lot of very well built 1st level wizards that can survive a CR1 dungeon, but that isn't average, is it?

Planar Binding is a Lvl 6 spell... For your support, you gotta wait all the way to level 11 before you can use it. Yes High Level Spells are powerful, but 4 HP a level isn't...

The Range assumes you are using a set amount of optimization. It takes someone special to build a Tier 3 Wizard, because of how easy it is to go over or under Tier 3. It doesn't take much to make a Wizard Tier 5, but it also doesn't take much to make them Tier 2 (as many fixes show, albeit unintentionally).

The Tiers assume an average where optimization is not a factor; it looks at what the class is statistically capable of doing. Traps in the way of the treasure? Summon Monster, Levitate, Fly, Etherealness, and a myriad of other ways provide the Wizard with a means of dealing with that problem. Social problems? The Wizard is the ultimate pimp and diplomat by virtue of Enchantment spells (or even spellcasting period; solving people's problems for them is a good way to get favors out of them). Combat? Glitterdust just trivialized half of the encounter, Black Tentacles or Summoning spells can take care of the rest.

The fact that it can do this all in one day's worth of spell slots is what it takes to be Tier 2. But the Wizard is capable of overhauling his spell selection daily, and has the splatbook support needed to ensure that he has a spell for every situation out there (even losing his spellbook is trivial if he prepared the right spell prior to losing it, since he keeps his spells from pervious days until he prepares new ones).


This requires no optimization to realize, but it does require some system mastery to fully understand it (which is why new players constantly hit Tier 5 with their Wizard builds). Again, it takes someone special to drop the Wizard into a Tier 3 party without outshining them or being worse than they are.

[LordBlades]

Druid is harder to screw up, i agree. While a good wizard is every bit as good(usually bettet IMO) than a good druid, a bad wizard is probably noticeably less effective than a bad druid.

[Gnaeus]

The problem I see with this is that he has to know that he's going to need to know that he should tank for that day. Low level wizards CAN do anything, but they can't do everything in one day, and it's a gamble whether he can do what you need exactly when you need it.

Big Fau described it very well. Any wizard can prepare the same good spells every day, and be approximately as effective as his tier 2 counterpart, the Sorcerer. What makes him tier 1 instead of tier 2 is his ability to upgrade his capabilities if he has better intel. Only a tier 1 class has the inherent ability to run away from an encounter, and come back the next day with the winning combo, or otherwise optimize to meet a short-term threat without having access to a Magic Mart.

[SleepyBadger]

The problem I see with this is that he has to know that he's going to need to know that he should tank for that day. Low level wizards CAN do anything, but they can't do everything in one day, and it's a gamble whether he can do what you need exactly when you need it. Again, that's mostly based on the campaign setting, but I'm trying to find the real world use of low level characters. I'm not trying to say that wizard isn't a tier 1 class. By all means, they are, but, that's just hypothetical. Would the average player pick up a wizard and be effective? Hopefully. Would the average player pick up a druid and be effective? Definitely. I just don't want to make the mistake of thinking a wizard being a wizard is OP.
It's true that going solo as a cleric or especially a druid is easier at low levels. I guess a wizard needs to take the time to scribe some scrolls at one stage to be prepared for solo battles. But that's just about it. He'll survive if he's smart enough. And I suppose all three being listed as tier 1 rather reflects the fact that 9th level wizard spells are more powerful and also more versatile than say shapechange alone for a druid. It equals out at the end.

[Yuki Akuma]

How does a Wizard know what spells to prepare?

There's a reason you can't ban Divination, you know.

[Gnaeus]

In many cases, he could have a rat or a bird walk/fly up, tell him what is there, and come back.

Alternately, he could prep a run away spell (expeditious retreat, mount, invisibility, sometimes rope trick) and run away, to come back later with better spells if he guessed wrong.

[mootoall]

Can we just have a rule that all Tier discussions should go in PM directly to JaronK? I mean, he's right here ...

[Big Fau]

How does a Wizard know what spells to prepare?

There's a reason you can't ban Divination, you know.

Not that you really need to see the future to prepare some combat-useful spells. Playing a Sublime Chord taught me that a well-rounded selection is more valuable than being able to annoy your DM.


That, and if blinding them doesn't work then you should apply tentacles liberally.

[Gnaeus]

That, and if blinding them doesn't work then you should apply tentacles liberally.

Advice to live by :smallbiggrin:

[JaronK]

@Moot: Absolutely not. I get swamped enough as it is. When they're public forum posts, most questions get answered by others anyway and more people read them (and thus don't need to PM me).

JaronK

[Pigkappa]

Which Divination spells would help me know the right spells to prepare to enter that creepy cavern tomorrow?

In core, there are no spells for this purpose at level 0, 1, 2. Clairvoyance can be used only if the locale is known. Scrying is nice, but I need to have a target (and can only check his surroundings), there's a 1 hour casting time, and a Will save. Arcane Eye is nice too, but its duration is someway limited and it can be blocked by a locked door. Contact other plane is dangerous and there's a great chance that the answer will be false, and even if it isn't, you can't gain too much information by "yes/no" answers. Prying eyes are blocked by darkness. The examples in the Legend Lore spell sound like quite useless for the purpose of preparing new spells.

There's always someone who says that a wizard will always have the best spells prepared because he can cast divination spells, but I never understand that part.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So, Tiers just measure the hypothetical range of options you have with the character, not the power, or effectiveness, of any of those options?

Kinda works against the whole "Wizards are OP" argument, doesn't it?

Yes and No. Tiers do both. A wizard has more options than just about any noncasting character, straight up. A lot of these options are far and away better than a lot of the options noncasters have, too.

[Gnaeus]

Which Divination spells would help me know the right spells to prepare to enter that creepy cavern tomorrow?

In core, there are no spells for this purpose at level 0, 1, 2. Clairvoyance can be used only if the locale is known. Scrying is nice, but I need to have a target (and can only check his surroundings), there's a 1 hour casting time, and a Will save. Arcane Eye is nice too, but its duration is someway limited and it can be blocked by a locked door. Contact other plane is dangerous and there's a great chance that the answer will be false, and even if it isn't, you can't gain too much information by "yes/no" answers. Prying eyes are blocked by darkness. The examples in the Legend Lore spell sound like quite useless for the purpose of preparing new spells.

There's always someone who says that a wizard will always have the best spells prepared because he can cast divination spells, but I never understand that part.

The absolute winner, at level 5, is lesser planar binding (Imp). No likely danger to a level 9 wizard, and Commune is the best spell for this job.

At level 1, with the help of a friendly druid, speak with animals + a familiar is pretty likely to work.

[Yuki Akuma]

What exactly would speak with animals do? Familiars are magical beasts.

[Glimbur]

Yes and No. Tiers do both. A wizard has more options than just about any noncasting character, straight up. A lot of these options are far and away better than a lot of the options noncasters have, too.

Arguably, a class which can do anything but which cannot break the game would be Tier 3, because Tiers 1 and 2 are partly defined by their ability to break the game. This leads to a big, hairy argument about what "break the game" means, but one possible example is that a hypothetical gestalt fighter//paladin//ranger//rogue//factotum would be high tier 3 due to versatility but an inability to "break the game" in the way that full casters can.

[Pigkappa]

The absolute winner, at level 5, is lesser planar binding (Imp). No likely danger to a level 9 wizard, and Commune is the best spell for this job.

That's sooo dangerous and sooo expensive. The imp has a Will save to resist. As soon as you summon him, you'll probably roll initiative and if he wins, he'll cast Suggestion against you. He's likely to subvert your orders. You also need a Magic circle to hold him.

This doesn't really sound a good idea...

[TroubleBrewing]

That's sooo dangerous and sooo expensive. The imp has a Will save to resist. As soon as you summon him, you'll probably roll initiative and if he wins, he'll cast Suggestion against you. He's likely to subvert your orders. You also need a Magic circle to hold him.

This doesn't really sound a good idea...

This is flawed, but as I am late for work, I don't have time to detail why. Someone else pick up the slack for me?

[Glimbur]

That's sooo dangerous and sooo expensive. The imp has a Will save to resist. As soon as you summon him, you'll probably roll initiative and if he wins, he'll cast Suggestion against you. He's likely to subvert your orders. You also need a Magic circle to hold him.

This doesn't really sound a good idea...

If he makes the Will save, he doesn't appear. This means even if he is mad, he's in a different dimension. Imps cannot planeshift by themselves, so it's not a huge deal.

Stuff him in the Magic Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm) with the extra diagram. That limits his escape options to the opposed Cha check... swinging his Cha against 20+half CL+your Cha. You'll probably be ok. Make sure to include Dimensional Anchor, but that's just common sense.

Then, buff yourself and (optionally) debuff the Imp until you are confident you will win the Cha check without paying him anything. All you want is him to use his 1/week ability, so it shouldn't be too onerous for the Imp. A natural one is a threat, but if you have contingency plans and/or your party nearby an Imp should not be a serious threat. And then you have six questions via Commune, for the expense of a few hours and some spell slots. Well, and a little powdered silver but as there is no listed cost it's in your spell component pouch.

Questions?

[LordBlades]

Alternatively, if you've got 5 level spells just use Contact Other Plane.

Contact a greater deity of Magic, which can see events related to it's portfolio for 1 week per divine rank in the future(that includes you casting spells tomorrow).

As a 9th level wizard with +6 int modifier you can just take 10 on the int check and be fine. You got 4 questions per casting:

-'What page in my spellbook is the spell that would be most beneficial for me to prepare tomorrow?'
-'What page in my spellbook is the spell that would be second most beneficial for me to prepare tomorrow?'
etc.

Rinse and repeat as necessary until you have a full spell list.