Fighter vs. Wolf

[Z3ro]

There's a common bit of knowledge that goes around forums like these and I never really questioned it; that at 1st level, the druid gets an animal companion (usually a wolf) that's a better fighter than a 1st level fighter. I don't often play druids, and have never at first level, so I just kinda assumed the wolf was better than I remembered.

But I recently looked up a wolf, and I must say, I'm just not seeing it as better than a 1st level fighter. Let's break it down a little further:

Defense: The wolf has 13 hp, 14 AC, and 2 decent saves. The fighter probably has the same hp, slightly higher armor class, and lower saves. So about the same in the defense category.

Offense: The wolf has +3 to attack, doing 1d6+1 damage. A decent two handed fighter has something like +4 or +5 to hit, with something like 1d10 or 2d6+4 or 6. Clearly the fighter is hitting harder.

The reason that usually gets trotted out is that the wolf can trip with each successful attack. But I'm not really seeing it; the wolf has to hit first (and with the +3, only hits average enemy AC 1/2 the time), then make a successful trip check. The wolf only has a +1; the average orc has an advantage over the wolf. If tripping is essential, a fighter can easily get +7 or +8 to the check at first level.

At that level, I'd rather have a fighter with reach putting things down with one hit, rather than a wolf potentially hitting and tripping. Heck, it's even possible that the wolf in two hits with minimum damage fails to put down your average goblin.

Am I missing something?

[Gnaeus]

One thing you are missing is that the wolf can wear leather armor with no penalty, so his AC is actually better than the fighter.

Another thing is that the wolf shares the druid spells, and if the druid is casting spells like Produce Flame the wolf can easily outdamage the fighter, or if the druid is casting CLW he can share his heals with wolf.

A third issue is that the wolf is easily replaced. Fighter dies, he is dead. Wolf dies, druid takes the leather armor off and summons a new wolf.

A fourth factor is that the druid himself is also a capable combatant, with options including pimping his ride skill + mounted combat to make wolf very hard to hit, or flanking with the wolf so that both are +2 to hit.

Edit: I agree, riding dog is better choice.

[Vladislav]

First, don't look at the wolf, look at the Riding Dog (almost same stats as Wolf, except slightly better Str and AC).

Second, the dog can easily wear leather armor for +2 additional AC.

So that's 1d6+3 damage (and trip), and AC 18 (beat that, level 1 fighter!)

Third, the dog (or wolf) effectively grants the Druid the benefits of the Track feat.

[NeoSeraphi]

Actually, the riding dog is better than a fighter. Not the wolf.

The riding dog is exactly like the wolf (Automatic trip if it's trained for war, Natural Bite that does 1d6) except that it has 2 higher Natural Armor, and 2 higher Strength and its Bite is a two-handed weapon (1.5x Str).

The question becomes then, can you get a Warbeast (MMII) as an animal companion at first level? Because we're trying to really answer your question (and you probably heard this from druid optimizers, rather than casual druid players) let's say yes. Then let's compare.

Warbeast Template: Adds +3 Str, +3 Con, +2 Wis, +1 Racial HD and +10 land speed

This makes the following changes:

Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip (+4 bonus on Trip checks)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +11, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +5, Survival +2*
Feats: Weapon Focus (Bite), Alertness, TrackB

So at 1st level, the Riding War Dog has 50 feet speed, +7 to hit (Assuming the druid chooses Weapon Focus as its 3rd level feat), a bite attack that does 1d6 and acts as a two-handed weapon for adding 1.5 x its 18 Str to damage, and has a +4 bonus on its Trip attack, as opposed to the wolf's +1.

Edit: Additionally, due to the riding dog's/wolf's scent ability, the animal can fight invisible creatures perfectly. At level 1.

[Z3ro]

One thing you are missing is that the wolf can wear leather armor with no penalty, so his AC is actually better than the fighter.
Well, depending on the fighter's dex, but I'll give you that.



Another thing is that the wolf shares the druid spells, and if the druid is casting spells like Produce Flame the wolf can easily outdamage the fighter, or if the druid is casting CLW he can share his heals with wolf.

A third issue is that the wolf is easily replaced. Fighter dies, he is dead. Wolf dies, druid takes the leather armor off and summons a new wolf.

A fourth factor is that the druid himself is also a capable combatant, with options including pimping his ride skill + mounted combat to make wolf very hard to hit, or flanking with the wolf so that both are +2 to hit.

Edit: I agree, riding dog is better choice.

The thing all of these have in common, which I think everyone misses, is that they require the druid doing something. Now true, in the game, the druid will be there to do these things. But that doesn't change the statement, which is never qualified, that the druid's animal companion is better then the fighter, not that the druid+animal companion is better then the fighter (which I don't dispute).

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, I didn't mention the druid at all.

[Z3ro]

Well, I didn't mention the druid at all.

Oh, I won't argue a warbeast riding dog, I just think that's a grey area that DMs would have to decide if the druid gets, so for this discussion a moot point.

[Salanmander]

The thing all of these have in common, which I think everyone misses, is that they require the druid doing something. Now true, in the game, the druid will be there to do these things. But that doesn't change the statement, which is never qualified, that the druid's animal companion is better then the fighter, not that the druid+animal companion is better then the fighter (which I don't dispute).

Actually I think that the statement would be that the druid + animal companion is better than druid + fighter. This is because we're considering the effectiveness of the animal companion vs. the fighter in a party with the druid in it.
At level 1 the druid doesn't really have any good buff spells (at least not SRD, i'm too pressed for time at the moment to check other sources), so he won't be helping out the fighter, really. But he might be helping out his animal companion.

[Coidzor]

A decent two handed fighter has something like +4 or +5 to hit, with something like 1d10 or 2d6+4 or 6. Clearly the fighter is hitting harder.

Here though, you're focusing the fighter on 2-handed fighting and being good at it in particular.


If tripping is essential, a fighter can easily get +7 or +8 to the check at first level.

Yes, but you'd have to gear the fighter explicitly towards a trip build at that level and optimize for it.

The main thing is that the animal companion is all around better than the fighter except in the areas that the fighter focuses on optimizing his build for. Like, sword and board "generalist" versus lockdown versus two-handed charging.


At that level, I'd rather have a fighter with reach putting things down with one hit, rather than a wolf potentially hitting and tripping.

I'd rather be a druid and not too shabby at fighting with a free, disposable fighter than a trip-focused reach fighter myself. *shrug*

[NeoSeraphi]

Fair enough. If that doesn't work for you, how about just a normal riding dog with the trained for war ability?

Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip (+2)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*
Feats: Alertness, TrackB

You're right, in this situation, the fighter is much more capable offensively than the riding dog, however, the riding dog's Trip ability can be a game-killer for most creatures you'll encounter in the first few levels (Kobolds in particular, but other CR appropriate encounters smaller than Medium will have a real tough time with it as well) and the fact that the dog gets to trip for free as part of his attack, instead of getting a free attack if he successfully Trips (like a fighter with Improved Trip), the riding dog can both consistently put out damage and knock other's prone.

The AC is still going to be higher than the fighter's. And yes, riding dogs can wear leather, so that's a net 18 AC. A two-handed fighter (as you used in your example) will probably have 13 HP and 14 or 15 AC at first level. So the riding dog can theoretically last longer in a fight (same HP, but fighter gets hit more and the dog has better saving throws)

Then there's what I mentioned about the scent quality. How's that?

[Eldariel]

War-Trained Riding Dogs are proficient in armor; they can wear Studded Leather Bardings without problems. They could even use heavier armor but obviously those are not available gold-wise on those levels.

The Riding Dog (not involving the Druid in any shape or form - Druid obviously still has buff spells for it alongside his own martial effort [though unimpressive on these levels]) has better defenses, but worse offense than a point buy Fighter. However, all the non-player creatures are based around Elite Array; if Fighter gets better point buy but the Dog is vanilla, you're basically giving the Fighter some extra.


Now, mind, even with a 32pb the Wolf will have significant advantages:
- Movement Speed
- AC & Reflex Save
- Scent + Track

Fighter will have:
- To Hit, Damage & Reach (or, if going by the Shield-bearer school Fighter will have no advantages whatsoever but let's pretend we know what we're doing and understand the huge advantage reach poses)

It's like, Fighter is better offensively while the Dog is more mobile and hardier. And if we make the Fighter play by 25pb/Elite Array, they're actually about the same offensively (same BAB & Str, Fighter higher damage die probably) and behind defensively. It's an overstatement that the AC is better than the Fighter but it can certainly give the Fighter a run for its money.

[Doc Roc]

War-Trained Riding Dogs are proficient in armor; they can wear Studded Leather Bardings without problems. They could even use heavier armor but obviously those are not available gold-wise on those levels.

The Riding Dog (not involving the Druid in any shape or form - Druid obviously still has buff spells for it alongside his own martial effort [though unimpressive on these levels]) has better defenses, but worse offense than a point buy Fighter. However, all the non-player creatures are based around Elite Array; if Fighter gets better point buy but the Dog is vanilla, you're basically giving the Fighter some extra.


Now, mind, even with a 32pb the Wolf will have significant advantages:
- Movement Speed
- AC & Reflex Save
- Scent + Track

Fighter will have:
- To Hit, Damage & Reach (or, if going by the Shield-bearer school Fighter will have no advantages whatsoever but let's pretend we know what we're doing and understand the huge advantage reach poses)

It's like, Fighter is better offensively while the Dog is more mobile and hardier. And if we make the Fighter play by 25pb/Elite Array, they're actually about the same offensively (same BAB & Str, Fighter higher damage die probably) and behind defensively. It's an overstatement that the AC is better than the Fighter but it can certainly give the Fighter a run for its money.

I believe there are a couple claw weapons, aren't there?
Can we pick the dog's feat?

[Redshirt Army]

As far as I can tell, at 1st level, an Animal Companion is about equal to an optimized fighter, being better at overall combat, and having Scent, but slightly worse than the fighter at the fighters specialty. Still pretty good for one class feature. :smalltongue:

[Doc Roc]

As far as I can tell, at 1st level, an Animal Companion is about equal to an optimized fighter, being better at overall combat, and having Scent, but slightly worse than the fighter at the fighters specialty. Still pretty good for one class feature. :smalltongue:

Or a feat.

[Gnaeus]

The thing all of these have in common, which I think everyone misses, is that they require the druid doing something. Now true, in the game, the druid will be there to do these things. But that doesn't change the statement, which is never qualified, that the druid's animal companion is better then the fighter, not that the druid+animal companion is better then the fighter (which I don't dispute).


Actually I think that the statement would be that the druid + animal companion is better than druid + fighter. This is because we're considering the effectiveness of the animal companion vs. the fighter in a party with the druid in it.
At level 1 the druid doesn't really have any good buff spells (at least not SRD, i'm too pressed for time at the moment to check other sources), so he won't be helping out the fighter, really. But he might be helping out his animal companion.

Exactly. And for most of the points I mentioned, they are things that the druid is likely to be doing ANYWAY. Like sharing heals when both the Druid and pet are hurt, or casting Produce Flame (one of his most effective L1 attack spells). If W does extra damage for free, or gets healed for free between encounters (by sharing a cure), that pretty clearly contributes to him being better.

[Z3ro]

As far as I can tell, at 1st level, an Animal Companion is about equal to an optimized fighter, being better at overall combat, and having Scent, but slightly worse than the fighter at the fighters specialty. Still pretty good for one class feature. :smalltongue:

Rather than respond to each post, this I think sums up what I was going for. Yes, the druid's animal companion is a good ability, but I still don't think it completely rocks the fighter so hard that you can give a blanket "always better" statement that is so often thrown around.

[Person_Man]

I think that a larger point of comparisons between a Fighter and a Druid's Animal Companion is that they are the same Tier. Even if the Fighter has higher AC and damage output, he still basically does the same things as the Animal Companion. Charge enemy, deal some damage, tries and prevent enemy from harming more important players, and maybe pulls off a Trip/Grapple/Bull Rush/etc combo.

Of the Druid's three primary class features (Animal Companion, full casting, Wild Shape), the Animal Companion is the weakest. And that's basically what a Fighter gets for his entire progression. I've played in more then one game where the Druid's Animal Companion overshadowed the Fighter, to the point where I openly give the Fighter more treasure to compensate and/or encourage other classes. If optimized the Fighter should be stronger then the Animal Companion. But he's basically trying to be the world's tallest midget.

[Doc Roc]

Rather than respond to each post, this I think sums up what I was going for. Yes, the druid's animal companion is a good ability, but I still don't think it completely rocks the fighter so hard that you can give a blanket "always better" statement that is so often thrown around.

Yes I can. Because I get a new animal companion when mine dies, where the fighter's player whines, steals the pizza, and curls up in the corner to roll a new character who's TOTALLY GOING TO BE GREAT, GUYS! And then comes back with a gnome paladin/ranger.

[Coidzor]

Or a feat.

Mmm, two pet-fighters at level 1. :smallbiggrin: More if you just warbeast 8 gp mules!

[subject42]

And then comes back with a gnome paladin/ranger.

Is the only requirement that it's better than than the Fighter?

If that's the case


http://sobriety.tsujiban.com/ChallengeAccepted.jpg

[Seerow]

Is the only requirement that it's better than than the Fighter?

If that's the case


http://sobriety.tsujiban.com/ChallengeAccepted.jpg


I wanna see this. Especially if it's equal parts ranger and paladin.



There's just very little synergy there at all. Though I suppose between the mount and the companion (isn't there a feat that combines those, or is it a prestige class that does that?) you could have the start of a supermount build... I dunno, I just think the Fighter will be better.

[subject42]

I wanna see this. Especially if it's equal parts ranger and paladin.

Would you mind if I used Pathfinder, if only because I'm more familiar with it these days? What kind of level do you want to see? What's the baseline fighter for comparison?

[JaronK]

Some things to consider:

First of all, a Riding Dog that trips is already a Warbeast. The template states that if the creature is already trained for war, then that's all the template does, and you can't add it again (which is why you can't have a Warbeast Warhorse). So, none of that.

Second... you could optimize a Fighter to out perform a Riding Dog, but the truth is at least in combat many Fighters won't. The Dog is strong right out of the box... just slap some cheap barding on him and turn him loose. And he rocks. Most Fighters (as in, the not all that optimized ones) will have trouble competing at all, and that's a porblem.

JaronK

[NeoSeraphi]

Some things to consider:

First of all, a Riding Dog that trips is already a Warbeast. The template states that if the creature is already trained for war, then that's all the template does, and you can't add it again (which is why you can't have a Warbeast Warhorse). So, none of that.

Second... you could optimize a Fighter to out perform a Riding Dog, but the truth is at least in combat many Fighters won't. The Dog is strong right out of the box... just slap some cheap barding on him and turn him loose. And he rocks. Most Fighters (as in, the not all that optimized ones) will have trouble competing at all, and that's a porblem.

JaronK

I don't think that applies to the Riding Dog, as it only gives him the ability to Trip, but doesn't otherwise change his stats. (The Warhorse actually has more HD and Strength than the regular horse, iirc, as well as having a primary hoof attack instead of a secondary hoof attack)

I know that what you said is how to interpret it RAW, but RAI I would definitely allow a Warbeast Riding War Dog in one of my games.

[SleepyBadger]

Rather than respond to each post, this I think sums up what I was going for. Yes, the druid's animal companion is a good ability, but I still don't think it completely rocks the fighter so hard that you can give a blanket "always better" statement that is so often thrown around.
Hm. Let's take a low lvl party with a fighter optimized for power and trip attacks so that he outshines the wardog. As it so happens the party will have to go underwater to find a sunken ship in their next adventure.
Druid can wave his wardog goodbye and call on an aquatic creature.
So what's the fighter going to do? Trip sharks?

[Eldariel]

I believe there are a couple claw weapons, aren't there?
Can we pick the dog's feat?

Well, if we Psy Reform the Dog or something I'm pretty sure we can do nice stuff but I think by RAW you're stuck with a standard Dog with its Alertness unless you go through the trouble of buying a manifesting or something (not that the Alertness were THE worst ever on level 1, mind; it's gonna have Spot & Listen comparable to the party Ranger/Cleric/Factotum/Rogue/whatever, only behind you, the Druid).

There...may be some weapons we could give it but I recall those strain the budget. Generally, without spells, you're stuck with something in the same ballpark as a Fighter (and of course, if we optimize the Fighter we can get quite a bit out of it on level 1 too).


AC doesn't make a Fighter useless, but it does put things into perspective when you can either get a Fighter or a Druid + a Fighter for the same price (one character slot).

[NeoSeraphi]

A dog can take Shape Soulmeld (Draconic Claws) if it's dragon-blooded.

[Thalnawr]

Hm. Let's take a low lvl party with a fighter optimized for power and trip attacks so that he outshines the wardog. As it so happens the party will have to go underwater to find a sunken ship in their next adventure.
Druid can wave his wardog goodbye and call on an aquatic creature.
So what's the fighter going to do? Trip sharks?

He jumps over the sharks with his mad BMX skillz...

[SleepyBadger]

He jumps over the sharks with his mad BMX skillz...
:smallbiggrin: He's probably better off not wading into the water at all staying back as a lookout... well he would be if he could spot or hear potential threats... wardogs are quite good at these things btw.

[HappyBlanket]

Would a Druid be improved if it's Animal Companion was traded for a Fighter Companion?

[Slipperychicken]

Would a Druid be improved if it's Animal Companion was traded for a Fighter Companion?

It's called party members. He can have both.

EDIT: Depends, how're the fighter levels calculated? Does the Fighter get WBL? It's also called Leadership.

[SleepyBadger]

It's called party members. He can have both.

EDIT: Depends, how're the fighter levels calculated? Does the Fighter get WBL? It's also called Leadership.
He could have a druid cohort...

[HappyBlanket]

It's called party members. He can have both.

EDIT: Depends, how're the fighter levels calculated? Does the Fighter get WBL? It's also called Leadership.

The moment you said "depends," the point was made.

Also, I'm not hearing any "No's."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, the Wolf's trip is mostly dependent on the die roll at that level, and how often he can do it. His +1 versus an Orc's +3 is not a significant difference, and his +3 to hit the Orc's AC 13 gives him a 55% chance to hit.

Second, adding Warbeast (MM2) to a Wolf animal companion requires rearing it for a year (and a DC 17 Handle Animal check), then training it for 2 months (and a DC 22 Handle Animal check). After that it's a Warbeast, it gets +1 HD, +3 Str and Con, +10 ft. movement, and some other benefits. A Druid 1 with Handle Animal 4 ranks, the +4 to checks with the animal companion, and Cha 8 can take ten and succeed at rearing it, and then try until successful to add Warbeast prior to the start of the game. If his Cha is 14+ instead, and he has a 50 gp masterwork tool for another +2, he can take ten and succeed on the check to make it a Warbast as well.

Third, Enrage Animal (SpC) makes even a non-Warbeast Wolf equal to the Fighter on both attack bonus and attack damage. Replacing the rage effect of Enrage Animal with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) just makes the Wolf that much better. Using Enrage Animal (Enfrenzy Animal?) with an armored Warbeast Wolf makes for a better combatant than any given 1st level Fighter, hands-down. The Druid can just duck behind a wooden tower shield and concentrate on Enrage Animal for the entire fight, and he'll still probably make a bigger contribution than the Fighter.

[JaronK]

I don't think that applies to the Riding Dog, as it only gives him the ability to Trip, but doesn't otherwise change his stats. (The Warhorse actually has more HD and Strength than the regular horse, iirc, as well as having a primary hoof attack instead of a secondary hoof attack)

I know that what you said is how to interpret it RAW, but RAI I would definitely allow a Warbeast Riding War Dog in one of my games.

If you want to do it RAW, just make a Warbeast Wolf. A Warbeast Dog is a Riding Dog (so the stats do go up). But a Warbeast Wolf would be legal... if you could chose to apply templates to your Animal Companions.

JaronK

[Z3ro]

First of all, the Wolf's trip is mostly dependent on the die roll at that level, and how often he can do it. His +1 versus an Orc's +3 is not a significant difference, and his +3 to hit the Orc's AC 13 gives him a 55% chance to hit.

Second, adding Warbeast (MM2) to a Wolf animal companion requires rearing it for a year (and a DC 17 Handle Animal check), then training it for 2 months (and a DC 22 Handle Animal check). After that it's a Warbeast, it gets +1 HD, +3 Str and Con, +10 ft. movement, and some other benefits. A Druid 1 with Handle Animal 4 ranks, the +4 to checks with the animal companion, and Cha 8 can take ten and succeed at rearing it, and then try until successful to add Warbeast prior to the start of the game. If his Cha is 14+ instead, and he has a 50 gp masterwork tool for another +2, he can take ten and succeed on the check to make it a Warbast as well.

Third, Enrage Animal (SpC) makes even a non-Warbeast Wolf equal to the Fighter on both attack bonus and attack damage. Replacing the rage effect of Enrage Animal with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) just makes the Wolf that much better. Using Enrage Animal (Enfrenzy Animal?) with an armored Warbeast Wolf makes for a better combatant than any given 1st level Fighter, hands-down. The Druid can just duck behind a wooden tower shield and concentrate on Enrage Animal for the entire fight, and he'll still probably make a bigger contribution than the Fighter.

So, again, the wolf only really gets better than the fighter with his druid. Guess that answers my question.

[Seerow]

Would you mind if I used Pathfinder, if only because I'm more familiar with it these days? What kind of level do you want to see? What's the baseline fighter for comparison?

I'd prefer 3.5, but pathfinder can fly because I don't think it would make a huge difference. Then again, I understand PF Paladin is a significant step up. But if so someone else has to make the fighter cause while I'm vaguely familiar with pathfinder, there are a lot of little details in it I'm not aware of having not played it personally.

As for level, I'd say 14+. That's when Rangers and Paladins spellcasting tends to come into its own and be decent enough to get by and seriously pull ahead of the Fighter, and multiclassing between them gimps that spell progression a lot.

The standard Fighter for 3.5 I'd imagine would be either control or charging, depending on what basis you want to compare around, damage or utility. Though a 14+ fighter can probably combine the two to some degree (you can easily fit in spiked chain proficiency, shock trooper, and still have room for improved trip, karmic strike, and possibly knockdown). Bonus points if it's a dungeoncrasher.

[subject42]

I wanna see this. Especially if it's equal parts ranger and paladin.

This isn't anything close to highly optimized, but here's what I get for an 8th level character.

It's interesting to compare it to the Fighter. The Fighter will have three to four more feats, depending on Race, and he will have more freedom in choosing them. Additionally, he will have a +1 to attack and damage with a single weapon group, a lower ACP by one, and no movement penalty in medium armor. He'll have a +2 bonus to Will saves against fear, as well.

By comparison, this mess of a character will have limited nova abilities via PF's extended smite, a situational boost in and out of combat via favored enemy and favored terrain, as well as a free mount that grows back every day, limited spell access, obscene saves, party buffs, self healing, and a few immunities to common effects.

It's not great, but as long as it stays mounted, I've seen worse.

Edit: Forgot the 4th and 8th level stat boosts.


Class: Paladin 4/Ranger 4 (Horse Lord)
Race: Gnome
Stats (25pt PF Point Buy):
STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 16

Favored Class: Ranger

Effective Character Level: 8

BAB: 8 (Same as a fighter)

Hit Die: D10 for both classes (same as fighter).

Base Saves
FORT: 8 (Fighter: 6)
REF: 5 (Fighter: 2)
WILL: 5 (Fighter: 2)

Skill Ranks / Level: Effectively 4/level (Fighter: 2/level)

Feats:
1) Power Attack
3) Improved Overrun
R2) Mounted Combat
5) Ride By Attack
R3) Endurance
7) Trample

Class Features

Detect Evil at will
Smite Evil 2/Day
Track
Wild Empathy
Divine Grace (CHA to Saves)
Lay On Hands (Swift Action for Self)
Favored Enemy (very buffed in PF)
Aura of Courage (fear immunity and a bonus on fear saves to nearby allies)
Divine Health (Disease immunity)
Favored Terrain
1st Level Paladin Spell Access
1st Level Ranger Spell Access
Animal Companion (Mount)

[MeeposFire]

Personally my research into it says to me that a phrase of "an animal companion is better than a fighter at fighting" is an exaggeration. However they are comparable especially in role. What I find is more accurate is that "an animal companion can do the fighter's role (melee menace) nearly as well and therefor you can use it to replace the fighter in a party". What people are actually trying to say is true (animal companions are essentially doing the fighters job as a class feature) but we tend to use hyperbole when describing this.

[BenInHB]

In a game i played last year I was a level 1 druid with a Riding Dog animal companion with leather barding. The party was snooping around a goblin encampment out side of town when we got caught and the goblins attacked. Our DM plays tough and will definitely kill us. This was a suppose to be a scouting mission not a fight, they majorly out numbered us and we should have run but as soon as the fighter in the party heard "Roll for Initiative" he was charging head long at the leader of the goblin tribe. My druid had 10's in everything except CON and WIS and i spent nearly all my starting wealth on my dogs barding so i wasn't about to step into the middle that mess. i stood in the bushes at the back of the battle and lobbed in shots with my sling while i sent my dog into the mix to help our fighter out. By the second round our fighter was down, by the third he was dead. The rogue saw that and bolted. I called my riding dog back over to me and was trying to support him with cover fire from the bushes as he worked his way through the mass goblins that had surrounded him and the figher. The 18AC (2DEX+4NAT+2Armor) was tough for the Goblins to beat but with 10-20 attacks per round coming at him there was always some getting through. What i didn't anticipate was the wave of goblins following him to chase him so aggressively and crash over me like a wave trapping me in my little 10 by 10 stand of bushes. Once he reached me i cast Vigor on myself and shared it with him and pulled out a club. The party wizard was still around tossing out some spells and crossbow bolts trying to clear me a path. After about two turns of this I dropped to -2 and collapsed. Seeing this about half the goblins took off after that annoying brat in the funny robes. Once the horde came his way it was "Expeditious Retreat!! See you later!!" and he was gone. The fighting continued for a long time with my companion viciously defending my prone body from the surrounding goblins. The concealment from the brush and the Lesser Vigor giving him 1hp a round meant he could taking a licking but keep on ticking. A few times Vigor brought me back to positives only for me to be smacked back into negatives again. I thought it was all over and was even thinking up ideas for my new character, but you know what?? That damn dog just kept killing and killing and wouldn't go down. He finally killed the last goblin but i was still unconscious and couldn't be woken (Vigor had stabilized me at -4 before it ran out). After awhile of sniffing around he grabbed me by my jacket and drug me along the trail the wizard had taken in his retreat and found the party about half a mile away regrouping (This was scary too cause the DM kept making me roll fort saves to see if the dragging was going to reopen my wounds and start me bleeding hp again).

So when the dust cleared 25 goblins and 3 dogs were dead. The fighter got 1 goblin and cleaved a dog before he dropped. The rogue kill 2 goblins before she split. The wizard killed 5 goblins and 1 dog. My druid killed 1 goblin and my Riding Dog killed 17 goblins and 1 dog!!

Granted concealment from the bushed and Lesser Vigor played a large roll in this but still, that is crazy. My DM even had a talk with me after and told me if we fought instead of running we were suppose to die. He went over my character sheets with a fine tooth comb after that to make sure the 18AC and spell sharing of Vigor was legit (that is pretty powerful at level 1, when shared that 22 extra hp to soak up damage)

[NecroRick]

A few times Vigor brought me back to positives only for me to be smacked back into negatives again. ... (Vigor had stabilized me at -4 before it ran out). ... Lesser Vigor played a large roll in this
...
My DM even had a talk with me after ... He went over my character sheets with a fine tooth comb after that to make sure the 18AC and spell sharing of Vigor was legit (that is pretty powerful at level 1, when shared that 22 extra hp to soak up damage)

IIRC
There is a certain school of thought that says that Vigor grants Fast Healing. And Fast Healing counts as 'natural' healing. And 'natural' healing stops when you get into negatives.

Personally, this always struck me as kind of stupid, but hey, there's plenty more where that came from in 3.5

[Midnight_v]

@ BeninHb

That story was freaking... awesome. Wow.

[ericgrau]

We may as well figure this out. Somebody stat up a druid and his companion. Give the druid leather (10 gp) or hide (15 gp) and we'll say 10 gp worth of misc gear. You can include any random minor objects in this 10 gp, or simply assume that your basic non-combat needs are met and don't worry about it. The rest of your 50 gp can go to kitting out your companion. 20 gp for leather barding or 30 gp for hide barding, for example. Figure out your companions attack bonus, damage, AC, HP, trip modifier and any other relevant stats. Figure out your druid's spells. You won't get a buffing round, but you may have an hour buff pre-cast and you may cast while your companion is fighting. Stick to the Player's Handbook (besides your companion from MMI) to keep it simple. Use the elite array for the druid' ability scores if it matters.

I'll find stats for a level 1 fighter or two and an average CR 1/2 monster and post them soon. Mainly b/c it's easy and I already have most of the info I need in my notes somewhere. Don't worry I won't give him/them toughness or anything silly/cheesy for level 1. For each fight the monsters will basically line up and fight 1 by 1 until the fighter or companion goes kaput. The druid may not fight nor get attacked but he may cast targeting his companion or share spells on his companion. We'll figure out average damage per round and number of rounds until death for both combatants both in the first fight and in 3 following fights after the spells are burnt (unless you prepare the same spell twice).

Here's the monster:
"Goomba" +2 attack bonus, 4.5 average damage, 7 HP, 1 initiative, 15 AC (12 touch, 13 FF), fort 3 / ref 2 / will 0, -1 trip (surprising number of small monsters at CR 1/2 in that average). Probably won't bother with initiative though.

Here's the fighter:
Dwarf fighter 1 (150 gp - 10 gp misc. gear = 140 gp)
weapon focus (waraxe), dodge
scale mail +4 AC (50 gp), heavy shield +2 AC (7 gp), dwarven waraxe (30 gp) = 87 gp
str 15, con 16, dex 13, wis 12, int 10, cha 8
+4 attack bonus, 7.5 average damage, 13 HP, 1 initiative, 17 AC (18 w/ dodge).

There's cash for a heal potion or something but meh maybe I'll fix it later.
Barbarian: Same build minus dodge, +2 HP before rage.
Tripper Fighter: Same build but int 13, dex 12, combat expertise, improved trip, flail.

Now we just need stats for an animal companion and we can see how many goombas each one kills.

[Coidzor]

Alright, so I'm not up to date on my Druid 1 spells that would be contributed, but there's a couple of options for animal companion, and for this I'm going to assume that being trained for war with the riding dog confers armor proficiency so it can actually use hide armor without taking a penalty to hit.

Otherwise it drops down to 18 AC from leather barding.

Riding Dog
Alertness, Track(B)
Hide Armor +3 AC, Bite
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
+3 attack bonus, 6.5 average damage, 13 HP, 2 initiative, 19 AC (3 hide, 4 natural, 2 dex), +3 grapple

vs.

Wolf
Track(B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Leather Armor +2 AC, Bite
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
+3 attack bonus, 4.5 average damage, 13 HP, 2 initiative, 16 AC (2 leather, 2 dex, 2 natural), +2 grapple

If the Druid has training time though, he can make his free heavy horse into a warhorse as well, though... (or, of course, warbeast one of the above two, or at least the wolf)

Heavy Warhorse - 4 HD Large creature
Endurance, Run
Hide Armor +3 AC, 2 Hooves, 1 Bite
Str 18, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
+6/+1 attack bonus, 7.5 average damage on hooves, 4.5 average damage on bite, 30 HP, 1 initiative, 17 AC (-1 size, +1 dex, +4 natural, +3 hide), +11 grapple

Warbeast Riding Dog (+1 HD, +3 Str/Con, +10 move) - 3 HD Medium creature
Alertness, Track(B), extra feat(let's say, weapon focus[bite])
Hide Armor +3 AC, 1 Bite
Str 18, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
+7 attack bonus, 9.5 average damage, 25 HP, 2 initiative, 19 AC (3 hide, 4 natural, 2 dex), +6 grapple




If you want to do it RAW, just make a Warbeast Wolf. A Warbeast Dog is a Riding Dog (so the stats do go up). But a Warbeast Wolf would be legal... if you could chose to apply templates to your Animal Companions.

JaronK

Not quite. A Riding Dog is a different set of dog breeds from regular dogs that are a different size, sort of the same way that there are light horses and heavy horses.

[IthroZada]

Not quite. A Riding Dog is a different set of dog breeds from regular dogs that are a different size, sort of the same way that there are light horses and heavy horses.

Well, the kicker is that a Riding Dog that can trip is described as being trained for war, which according to the Warbeast template, automatically makes it a Warbeast.

[Coidzor]

Well, the kicker is that a Riding Dog that can trip is described as being trained for war, which according to the Warbeast template, automatically makes it a Warbeast.

Yes, but not all Riding Dogs have been trained for war and can trip automatically.

Thus, Riding Dog =/= Warhorse, because warhorses are automatically always trained for war, hence the name and different creature entry, but riding dogs are not always trained for war.

[ericgrau]

Hmm, the average rolled high stat is actually closer to 16 even though elite array says 15 and that may make more of a difference than I thought. Oh well, maybe I'll figure it out both ways. I'll work on the vanilla fighter fights now.

Someone may want to figure out if there are any relevant Player's Handbook druid spells in the meantime. It might also be nice to resolve the question of whether or not the riding dog gets war training. That affects not only his AC but his ability to trip. I mean if the druid has time to do that, why couldn't anyone with handle animal also start at level 1 buying a light horse and convert it into a light warhorse and effectively get 75 gp for free (or 6 weeks free room and board if you look at it that way). Heck I think the fighter could cut back a little on gear and pull that off.

EDIT:
Fighter: 50% hit => 3.75 DPR. 0.54 GPR (goombas per round)
Goomba: 25% hit => 1.125 DPR. 0.0625 FPR
8.6 goombas killed per fighter (only if fighting 1 at a time)
~11 with a cure light wounds potion, but that only works once. Not in fights 2-4. FWIW goombas are worth 150 gp a pop but that's still less money for full plate later, etc.

Untrained Riding Dog: 45% hit => 2.925 DPR. 0.42 GPR (goombas per round)
Goomba: 25% hit => 1.125 DPR. 0.0625 RDPR
6.72 goombas killed per riding dog (only if fighting 1 at a time)

War Trained Riding Dog: With a 60% chance of tripping each round a war trained one could get a +4 in round 2, so ~+2 on average half the rounds, or an average of +1, enough to make up for his -1 attack bonus. So offensively he becomes on par with the 15 strength fighter and defensively a bit better.

16 strength Fighter: 55% hit => 4.675 DPR. 0.67 GPR (goombas per round)
Goomba: 25% hit => 1.125 DPR. 0.0625 FPR
10.7 goombas killed per fighter (only if fighting 1 at a time)
~13.5 with a cure light wounds potion, but that only works once.

I think all this boils down to "maybe". It depends if you give 6 weeks of training time, which is worth a small fortune at level 1. Heck someone could craft breastplate or train a horse in the same time, or at least enjoy 6 weeks of roleplaying with whores for free. Heck make 65 gp in profession checks IIRC. Core or non-core spells might make a big difference; giving the goomba's low DPR I can see how a 1 HP per round vigor would be tremendous. Rolling slightly higher on stats makes a big difference. Apparently that precious heal potion you should really buy at level 1 makes a big difference. Practically speaking, the DM needs to watch out for seemingly innocent tricks and spells, or even horrible starting stats, unless all players use these equally.

[DefKab]

I think we're all forgetting a huge point here.

The Druid knows his companion is just gonna get better...

The fighter wont.

[Worira]

Well, Magic Fang for +1 to attack and damage on the dog, for one. CLW or Lesser Vigor, for another. Enrage Animal would be another decent first-level buff, except that it's concentration+1 round a level, which technically works according to the rules of the challenge, but isn't really a particularly good spell for a druid to have. But if it is up, that's another +2 to attack and damage, and +4 HP.

EDIT: And if we just want to go for BIG NUMBAS and emphasis how disposable the Animal Companion is, we could use Beastland Ferocity, to let it act with negative HP, and get another +4 to strength while in the negatives. Also, having a strength 23 dog at 1st level amuses me.

[Coidzor]

Applicable SRD Druid 0 and 1 spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm#zeroLevelDruidSpells)

0th:
Guidance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guidance.htm)- +1 to hit on a single attack roll
Cure Minor Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureMinorWounds.htm)- +1 hp
Virtue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/virtue.htm)- +1 temporary hp lasts for 1 minute

1st:
Produce Flame (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/produceFlame.htm)- depending upon how this interacts with share spells, could have a melee touch attack for 1 minute... but when making an attack the duration is reduced by 1 minute, so this would be a single touch attack.
Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) - +1 to hit and damage for one minute
Cure Light Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWounds.htm) - 1d8+1 hp, average 5.5 hp

1st level druid has 3 0th level spells and 1 1st level spell per day. With a 15 or 16 in Wisdom, he'll get 1 bonus 1st level spell.

So 3 0th and 2 1st level spells... Maybe 3 Cure Minor, a Magic Fang, and a Cure Light?

Going outside of the SRD, lesser vigor is opened up, which sounds like it'd be best activated when the AC reaches around half HP if it's the riding dog, given what I've seen of the DPR calculations.

So I'm trying my hand with the heavy warhorse to see if I'm understanding DPR calculations properly...
Heavy Warhorse

60% chance of hit with each hoof. 2 hooves. average damage for hoof is 3.5+4 = 7.5

7.5*.60 = DPR for a hoof attack = 4.5

DPR for 1 hoof attack*2 = 9?

35% chance of hit with the bite. average damage for bite is 2.5+2 = 4.5

4.5*.35 = DPR for bite = 1.57500

DPR for full attack = 4.5+4.5+1.57500? = 10.575 = ~10.58 DPR?

Goomba hp = 7

GPR =10.575/7 = 1.51071429 = ~1.511 GPR

Goomba DPR = 30% chance to hit AC 17 * 4.5 average damage = 1.35 GDPR

Heavy Warhorse HP = 30

HWPR = 1.35/30 = 0.045 = ~0.05 HWPR

[ericgrau]

EDIT: ^ Ya looks like the heavy warhorse kills 33 goombas (~1.5 goombas per ~0.05 warhorses), again only if they attack 1 at a time. At CR 2 fighting CR 1/2 baddies he better. Did I skim too fast to notice a discussion about how to get a heavy warhorse at level 1?

Someone can figure out the magic fang + cure light wounds DPR if you want to overcome my laziness but it seems like it makes the untrained riding dog the same as the fighter + potion for 1 fight, and then it falls behind for the next 3 fights. Well slightly better due to cure minor wounds but at that point it's really time to figure out the druid's DPR contribution b/c he's going to be swinging his club or quarterstaff instead. Probably a str of 12 or 13 for +1 attack bonus, 1d6+1, 10 HP. 35% hit for +1.58 DPR. As the squishiest target he's going to get hit first which means he provides a bit of HP before being forced to flee and his damage contribution disappears. Ya he might get a round or two of flanking in too but it's not usually going to be on the first swing, maybe not the second either since you can't teach an animal to move to flank. A wolf would do it instinctively though.

This whole thing reminds me of a level 1 challenge I did a while back not realizing the terror of complicated builds people could still manage at level 1. I went to the trouble of simulating 100 fights for each duel to find percentage of wins. Before I had to cut it short from the amount of time this took I did manage to get in a druid w/ companion, a raging barbarian, a sleep bomb coup de grace scythe wizard and a commoner bluff-master with chickens. It was a one shot fight with no drawback for burning expendables, spells or other 1/day effects. The barbarian came on top simply due to rage, next the druid, 3rd the wizard (saving throw + going first unreliable means to win), and 4th the commoner. But it was scary how many fights the commoner still won with his "use chickens to confuse the opponent about the contest rules so I can get a free extra swing at him" tactics. I played the bluff common-sense wise, not as an auto-win or anything, just enough confusion for a free swing if it worked, with a big penalty to the check. I had a vanilla fighter who ended up somewhere in the middle of that too but I wasn't going to let him advance to round 2 regardless since I made him.

[Coidzor]

EDIT: ^ Ya looks like the heavy warhorse kills 33 goombas (~1.5 goombas per ~0.05 warhorses), again only if they attack 1 at a time. At CR 2 fighting CR 1/2 baddies he better. Did I skim too fast to notice a discussion about how to get a heavy warhorse at level 1?

Essentially the same as getting a warbeast at level 1. Might be easier, can't recall if I was reading the Handle Animal skill description correctly on the SRD, but it seemed like training a horse for war would make it into a warhorse. If not, warbeasting it, rather than applying the warbeast template makes it into a war-creature.


Ya he might get a round or two of flanking in too but it's not usually going to be on the first swing, maybe not the second either since you can't teach an animal to move to flank. A wolf would do it instinctively though. I think between the web articles and splatbooks a flank trick has appeared, thought it was with wild cohort in that set of web articles, but I just checked and didn't see it there...

[TroubleBrewing]

So, to sum up so far, your "average" (no optimization beyond picking Dwarf as your race assumed) Fighter is worth 1.8 Goombas more than your average (some optimization assumed, but you're playing a Druid, so whatever) Riding Dog.

And this is without considering the absurd scenario in which the Druid is absent, the dog is just chilling with the Fighter, and they decide to duke it out.

Maybe the Fighter ate the last of the Beggin' Strips, and the dog peed in his helmet.

EDIT: And I don't think this can be stressed enough: The Druid is getting this as its weakest class feature. With a feat, he can get two of them. That's an increase of 6.72 Goombas, for the price of one feat. I don't think there's a Fighter Bonus Feat out there that's worth 6.72 Goombas. Except maybe Leadership, which might not even BE a FBF.

[Taelas]

Do keep in mind that the Fighter advances much faster than the animal companion. After around 3rd level, the Fighter simply outpaces the animal companion, period.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that we are still comparing an entire class against a single class feature. Especially since that, by and large, the class feature compares (especially with Natural Bond and a Fleshraker Dinosaur).

[TroubleBrewing]

Do keep in mind that the Fighter advances much faster than the animal companion. After around 3rd level, the Fighter simply outpaces the animal companion, period.

See, now we have to try this. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the fact that I even think there's a chance that you're wrong means we must find out. Anybody up for the challenge? :smallamused:


Of course, this doesn't change the fact that we are still comparing an entire class against a single class feature.

This is very, very important. I hate seeing "my Fighter build can beat a Wizard! :thog:" threads, for the simple reason that they are always wrong, and adding "my Fighter build can beat a Druid! :thog:" threads to the mix would be horrendous. As long as we keep sight of the fact that we aren't comparing the separate classes, but the weakest class feature of one against the other one in its entirety, I think we'll be okay.

[Eldariel]

Do keep in mind that the Fighter advances much faster than the animal companion. After around 3rd level, the Fighter simply outpaces the animal companion, period.

Aye, but around those times Druid's buff magic also takes a serious turn for the stronger which does help the AC out quite a bit (notably, he gets long duration buffs so they don't count against Druid's actions in combat). At those levels, it's rarely a vanilla AC rather than an AC with long duration buffs even if not wasting any combat actions on it. And a Brown Bear really isn't that much worse than a Fighter (though obviously, an optimized Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher with charge & AoO feat chains and Imperious Command is going to have more versatility and combat prowess).

[TroubleBrewing]

And a Brown Bear really isn't that much worse than a Fighter (though obviously, an optimized Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher with charge & AoO feat chains and Imperious Command is going to have more versatility and combat prowess).

But how many Goombas is it worth? :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

I'll give it a try. Lets try it at level 7, this gives a slight edge to the Animal companion, but its a class feature, so it has to be outpaced eventually.... right?

I'll edit when I've built a level 7 Animal Companion that will compete adequately with an optimized fighter of the same level.

Edit: Let's do a Fleshraker, and assume that the Druid took Natural Bond. That gives it 10HD. At level 8 we'll bump con, so his stats look like:

Str 20 Dex22 Con 16 Int 2 Wis 14 Cha 12

AC 28 + Barding

Attacks Claw/Claw/Bite/Tail/Rake(on charge)
+12/+12/+10/+10/+?

Fleshrakers already have pounce, something the Fighter will be sorely lacking. For feats, lets just do Power Attack and Shock Trooper. With a BAB of +7 that will give damage of 1d6+12 for claws and 1d6+9 for bite and tail. Each successful attack carries a DC 18 poison that deals 1d6/1d6 Dex damage. Shock Trooper can be replaced with Leap Attack for less accuracy/more damage per attack.

Assuming the Druid takes Spot and Survival, the Fleshraker will make a much better scout than the Fighter.

I advanced it too far. This is a 9th level Animal Companion.

[dextercorvia]

If I screwed that up, I just want to say -- I've never (not even in 2e) played a Druid. I have just heard that Fleshraker and Natural Bond are good, and I picked standard melee feats to advance it with. I don't know that it would outdamage a Dungeoncrasher, but I think it has a reasonable chance of one-shotting something without an awesome Fort save.

[ericgrau]

This looks like it might get too involved for me to continue participating in, so here's a link to average monster stats by CR:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9556126&postcount=5 . Unfortunately the link I had to a better monster searcher is dead so for attack bonus and damage you just gotta look at a few monsters yourself at a given CR and take an average. www.d20srd.org has a so-so monster searcher to at least give you all the monsters at a certain CR.

I like to to use CR = level - 2, since 4 of those means EL = level +2, which is a "difficult" (but not overwhelming) fight. Percent chance of hitting equals (21 + attack bonus - AC) / 20 * 100%. And I think everyone here can figure out average damage or else ask somebody else who does.

Here's a couple links to some core vanilla fighter builds. Others may wish to alter them, to make trippers or barbarians for example (especially since rage is easier to compare to other use/day abilities like spellcasting), but at least they can help with a starting point:
stats: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888663&postcount=15
build: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20

FWIW I've heard somewhere fleshrakers had a bad reputation for being OP. So level of optimization makes a difference and should be clarified, perhaps with comparisons at different levels of optimization. At high optimization my above links get completely scrapped for a shocktrooper build. A higher CR is also be reasonable for these, as most DMs will try to make fights semi-hard.

[Taelas]

Couple things wrong.

You don't have the Multiattack feat, so secondary naturals are at -5. The Rake attack seems to be a secondary natural attack based off of Dex, so it would be +8 (but the entry doesn't state so, so that's a guess).

You don't qualify for Shock Trooper (Improved Bull Rush and Power Attack are both prerequisites). You qualify for Leap Attack only because it has Jump as a class skill - which it has at the cost of Spot and Listen (which are the normal animal skills). If it only takes one skill point more in Jump (which is what it needs for Leap Attack), you have a total of 5 skill points to allocate. Survival is not a class skill for animals, so its tracking is terrible (it only gets its Wis bonus of +2).

Power Attack is also not great for the animal companion, as it has a low Str and only use natural weapons. With Leap Attack, you get +2 damage for each -1 to hit. Also, without Shock Trooper, what you're getting is Flurry of Misses, essentially. Full attack on a charge: +7/+5/+0/+1; can't use the tail attack unless there's an adjacent character, which gives it an additional attack at +0. Granted, its damage will be decent: 1d6+13 on the claws, 1d6+10 on the bite or tail, and 1d6+11(?) on the rake; not sure about the last one.

The animal companion gains absolutely no benefit from the druid's skills -- that's familiars. It is not a good scout.

If you instead of taking Power Attack and Leap Attack take Multiattack and Improved Multiattack, it looks better.

+12/+12/+12/+12/+13. 1d6+5 on the claws, 1d6+2 on the bite and tail, and 1d6+3(?) on the rake.

Of course, this is all before buffs, which is where the real power comes in, as Eldariel mentioned above.

[dextercorvia]

Indeed, I read the wrong line in the advancement table. I read the 9-11th line, which grants Multiattack. That also lowers the Strength and Dex by a point and the Poison DC by a point.

[Taelas]

Ah, I should have seen that. In that case, you also lose 2 HD and 2 NA, making your total attack bonus +10/+10/+5/+5/+6.

[Kaeso]

People often forget how customizable the animal companion is, too.

For instance:

Natural Bond. Ooooh, now you've got a -3 Animal Companion at level 4, but have advanced him just as far as a level 1 companion.

Exalted Companion. If you're playing a very Neutral Good druid, this one is great. Because, as mediocre-to-downright-bad as VoP is on a character, once you've got a 3 Int or higher good companion, your animal companion can take vow of poverty. You know how great Vow of Poverty is on an animal companion?

This is from a different thread, but I think it's very relevant to the discussion.

[Togo]

If you want to compare vanilla animal companions to fighters, try giving the druid a dire ape. It's a PHB option right out of the box, and it's own that, in the campaign I played, gave the fighters of equivalent level serious inferiority complexes.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Riding Dog (not involving the Druid in any shape or form - Druid obviously still has buff spells for it alongside his own martial effort [though unimpressive on these levels]) has better defenses, but worse offense than a point buy Fighter. However, all the non-player creatures are based around Elite Array; if Fighter gets better point buy but the Dog is vanilla, you're basically giving the Fighter some extra.

Only creatures with class levels. Everything else is absolutely average.

The Riding Dog's ability modifiers are Str +4, Dex +4, Con +4, Int -8 (max 2), Wis +2, Cha -4.

Which is, you know, pretty good.

[Eldariel]

Only creatures with class levels. Everything else is absolutely average.

Yeah, well, duh. What I meant was that they're "balanced" (for how the term can be applied to anything in 3.5 design, at any rate) around PCs being Elite Array as opposed to e.g. 32pb.

[Ardantis]

Can't a level 1 wizard be defeated in one round by a housecat? Why aren't we simulating THAT absurd scenario?

[Eldariel]

Can't a level 1 wizard be defeated in one round by a housecat? Why aren't we simulating THAT absurd scenario?

Not in one round. And not if the Wizard actually uses his magic. A housecat can defeat a Commoner, and a Wizard without magic is little more than a Commoner with good stats and good Will-saves (they do have all simple weapon proficiencies over Commoner's one single, which does give them a bit more versatility though; can use Longspear, Light Crossbow and Mace for example).

And the good stats make quite a difference; Commoners have Standard Array or Nonelite Array, Wizards have Elite Array; most importantly, probably higher Dex & Con than Commoners. But yeah, we aren't simulating "Housecat can defeat Wizard" because they really can't. Not to mention, Animal Companion is a class feature so comparing it to a class actually has a meaningful context (and is telling of the issues in the system) while comparing a "monster" to a class is kinda random.

[MeeposFire]

Not in one round. And not if the Wizard actually uses his magic. A housecat can defeat a Commoner, and a Wizard without magic is little more than a Commoner with good stats and good Will-saves (they do have all simple weapon proficiencies over Commoner's one single, which does give them a bit more versatility though; can use Longspear, Light Crossbow and Mace for example).

And the good stats make quite a difference; Commoners have Standard Array or Nonelite Array, Wizards have Elite Array; most importantly, probably higher Dex & Con than Commoners. But yeah, we aren't simulating "Housecat can defeat Wizard" because they really can't. Not to mention, Animal Companion is a class feature so comparing it to a class actually has a meaningful context (and is telling of the issues in the system) while comparing a "monster" to a class is kinda random.

Not that it matters wizards are not proficient with all simple weapons though they do get more than one weapon. You are thinking of sorcerers.

[Eldariel]

Not that it matters wizards are not proficient with all simple weapons though they do get more than one weapon. You are thinking of sorcerers.

Oh yeah, they had that list. Well, whatever; it only costs them Longspear anyways.

[ericgrau]

I dunno when I ran that competition it really depended on who won initiative and whether or not the target failed his save vs. sleep(s). There's maybe a 5-10% chance of the fight becoming commoner vs. house-cat, and at that point the wizard is already 2-3 attacks behind so loss is likely. Sure he could have prepared magic missile, but nobody expects the house cat. IIRC his 3rd spell was hold person, in case of elf.

[Talya]

This is from a different thread, but I think it's very relevant to the discussion.

Often forgotten when taking an Exalted Companion - the Celestial version of an animal is a Magical Beast. It's going to advance at d10 hit dice, and full BAB.

[TroubleBrewing]

Often forgotten when taking an Exalted Companion - the Celestial version of an animal is a Magical Beast. It's going to advance at d10 hit dice, and full BAB.

I'd suggest "/thread" here, but I know someone is going to come back with "But the Fighter can take VoP toooooo".

[Talya]

I'd suggest "/thread" here, but I know someone is going to come back with "But the Fighter can take VoP toooooo".

Actually, that's independant of VOP. That's just adding the celestial template to an animal companion via the Exalted Companion feat, in BoED.

[Doc Roc]

I'd suggest "/thread" here, but I know someone is going to come back with "But the Fighter can take VoP toooooo".

Oh nooooo. Why would you suggest this?

[TroubleBrewing]

Oh nooooo. Why would you suggest this?

A delightful combination of stupidity, lack of forethought, and masochism.

[dextercorvia]

Oh nooooo. Why would you suggest this?

Wait, we weren't deliberately trying to gimp the fighter until he was a worse beatstick than a (non improved) familiar?

[TroubleBrewing]

Wait, we weren't deliberately trying to gimp the fighter until he was a worse beatstick than a (non improved) familiar?

No, that's a whole separate thread called "The PHB".

[Togo]

Can't a level 1 wizard be defeated in one round by a housecat? Why aren't we simulating THAT absurd scenario?

It's a perfectly reasonable scenario. Why on earth would you want to stat up a housecat unless you were running a horror game of some kind, and in such a game, that's exactly how good a spooked out housecast should be - not a serious threat, but enough to kill or hurt a weak character in desperation.

Sure it's not high fantasy, but not every game is.

[Ardantis]

Togo, no offense, but I would file that scenario under "comedy" rather than "horror." What kind of horror movies have you been watching, anyways? Peter Jackson and Sam Raimi, apparently.

[Togo]

None taken. Horror is not my strongest trope. My last attempt, involving sinister goings on in a Japanese high school, led to my players coining the phrase "Comi-horror", short for "Comedy horror". This is where terrible twisted things occur, and the players can't stop laughing. Apparently they loved the game, but it didn't turn out the way I planned.

Ah well. The point remains though, that unless a monster is at least a threat to the weakest character, there's not much point giving it stats...

[Killer Angel]

A little late, but...
At first level, the fighter should focus on bows. This way, at least she can try to look more useful than the riding dog.

[Ardantis]

Killer Angel~

That's actually the smartest thing anyone's said on this thread in almost a page, my own posts included.

See? See! Animal Companions don't have THUMBS! THAT'S why PCs are better! No ranged attack for you, puppy. Plus you can't intimidate.

As for your "horror" game, Togo, I can empathize. I once ran a game of Aberrant, the d10 superhero game, and put my team up against a character who could rip off his body parts and have them run around and fight, a la Thing of the Addam's Family. Outmatched by his army of limbs and a power that was badly in need of errata, the team fled in horror and disgust from a detached stomach with super-strength. They still blame me about that one to this day.

[Lans]

I rank them like this
Warbeast Wolf -------------------------------- Archer-Does his own thing
Reach Fighter
THF=Wolf
S&B
TWF

[Endarire]

BrilliantGameologists did this as Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0).

[Kaeso]

Killer Angel~

That's actually the smartest thing anyone's said on this thread in almost a page, my own posts included.

See? See! Animal Companions don't have THUMBS! THAT'S why PCs are better! No ranged attack for you, puppy. Plus you can't intimidate.


What if you train the riding dog to throw rocks with his mouth? :smallbiggrin:
That's still 1d3+STR damage at 50 ft.

[Killer Angel]

Killer Angel~
That's actually the smartest thing anyone's said on this thread in almost a page, my own posts included.


:smallbiggrin:


What if you train the riding dog to throw rocks with his mouth? :smallbiggrin:


I know what you're thinking.
No, I won't let your dog taking levels in Hulking Hurler. :smalltongue:

[Ardantis]

Fighters can only throw rocks 10 ft, because they don't have a listed distance.

That's some amazing dog trick!

[Thespianus]

Actually, that's independant of VOP. That's just adding the celestial template to an animal companion via the Exalted Companion feat, in BoED.
Maybe this is a bit off topic, but I'd like to ask:

If you gain an Exalted Companion through that feat, and you pick a Unicorn, how would that Unicorn progress in level later on?

In the MM, there's a "Celestial Charger" unicorn, an "8 HD Unicorn with 7 cleric levels". Could I grab that as a Exalted Companion, given enough of a Druid level? Or is an Exalted Companion barred from taking class levels?

[Kaeso]

:smallbiggrin:



I know what you're thinking.
No, I won't let your dog taking levels in Hulking Hurler. :smalltongue:

........:smalleek:

So not only are you a bear riding a bear that summons bears, buffs bears, heals bears, breathes bears and fires a bear ray out of his bear crotch, but one of you bears can throw another bear with enough force to destroy existance itself.

That's one creepy PC. Batman wizards, eat your heart out.

[Andorax]

Oft forgotten in this discussion...the animal companion has an INT OF ONE OR TWO!

Yes, I shouted that.

Unless you're playing with a group of idiots (and yes, we all have at one point in time or another done so), the party's fighter isn't going to immediately draw his sword and attack the guardsman who drives his gauntleted fingers into the druid's chest during questioning at the gate.

...but unless I'm missing something, if that wolf (excuse me...warbeast riding dog) beats its 'friend' to initiative, the party's going to have a LOT of explaining to do.

Animal companions need to behave like...you know...actual animals. If they're fully remote-controlled damage platforms that never act their Int, then one of their biggest weaknesses is being blatantly ignored.

[TroubleBrewing]

Animal companions need to behave like...you know...actual animals.

[citation needed]

[Eldariel]

Animal companions need to behave like...you know...actual animals. If they're fully remote-controlled damage platforms that never act their Int, then one of their biggest weaknesses is being blatantly ignored.

Except it's a trained animal. It knows a bunch of tricks and it'll follow the orders of its master (the Druid). How many dogs have you seen randomly attack a person in a city? It happens, but invariably it's either a badly disturbed dog or a poorly trained one. By my reading, nothing suggests the animal companion is going to disobey its master so if it's allowed to Follow, it's not going to spontaneously Attack without a command.

[Killer Angel]

Except it's a trained animal. It knows a bunch of tricks and it'll follow the orders of its master (the Druid).

Indeed. It's like a K-9 dog, except it's smarter.

[Kaeso]

Oft forgotten in this discussion...the animal companion has an INT OF ONE OR TWO!

Yes, I shouted that.

Unless you're playing with a group of idiots (and yes, we all have at one point in time or another done so), the party's fighter isn't going to immediately draw his sword and attack the guardsman who drives his gauntleted fingers into the druid's chest during questioning at the gate.

...but unless I'm missing something, if that wolf (excuse me...warbeast riding dog) beats its 'friend' to initiative, the party's going to have a LOT of explaining to do.

Animal companions need to behave like...you know...actual animals. If they're fully remote-controlled damage platforms that never act their Int, then one of their biggest weaknesses is being blatantly ignored.

Animal companions can be given simple orders through speech ('sit', 'stay', 'attack' etc.) and speaking is a free action. As long as the PC guiding the animal is at least somewhat intelligent this shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Also, magical beasts (through the exalted companion feat) have an int of 3, making them as smart as a mentally disabled humanoid. This means that if Krunk the skullbashing barbarian understands that kidneypunching the king isn't a smart idea, so does Bearington Bear.

[Taelas]

Oft forgotten in this discussion...the animal companion has an INT OF ONE OR TWO!

Yes, I shouted that.

Unless you're playing with a group of idiots (and yes, we all have at one point in time or another done so), the party's fighter isn't going to immediately draw his sword and attack the guardsman who drives his gauntleted fingers into the druid's chest during questioning at the gate.

...but unless I'm missing something, if that wolf (excuse me...warbeast riding dog) beats its 'friend' to initiative, the party's going to have a LOT of explaining to do.

Animal companions need to behave like...you know...actual animals. If they're fully remote-controlled damage platforms that never act their Int, then one of their biggest weaknesses is being blatantly ignored.

Yeah, no. While you certainly have a point that animal companions need to behave like animals, they are also not ordinary animals. They are trained, and behave according to the Handle Animal skill.

While in the real world, you cannot train wolves and expect them to behave like dogs, that's exactly what happens in D&D by RAW.

[Andorax]

I'm not talking about random, rabid assaults...but I am talking about genuine animal behavior.

Even a trained animal is going to attack when threatened, or when it feels its master is threatened (see the gate guard example).

Yes, speaking is a free action. Note...not immediate. You can (technically) only speak on your turn, so yes, it's perfectly reasonable that an animal companion could act before the druid has a chance to order it to stand down.


Or let's say the converse is true...that the animal is trained to not attack, not ever, without a command to do so. Silence the druid, or deafen the animal, and the animal companion is statuary...at best, you can make the argument that it would guard its master, but that's not always the best tactical option.

How many first level fighters can be taken completely out of the fight with a Thunderstone?

To say nothing about the objections raised by trying to bring an 8' long carnivorous lizard inside the city gates...stable it at the inn? Not a chance.



Listen, I'm not going to say that animal companion can't be combat effective...obviously they can, and frequently are. However, I genuinely think that a portion of the balance lies in keeping an animal companion to its limits...those of an animal, even a trained one (and note...training beyond the alloted "bonus tricks" takes time and skill), with an int no higher than 2 (barring celestial companions and the like).

[Psyren]

Yes, speaking is a free action. Note...not immediate. You can (technically) only speak on your turn, so yes, it's perfectly reasonable that an animal companion could act before the druid has a chance to order it to stand down.

Incorrect: "In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#speak) It is a specific exception.

[Erloas]

But at the same time having to call back your animal from attacking someone if they get aggressive with you, even just verbally, is not generally going to send a good sign to the guards, noble, king, or whomever else you might be meeting with. It immediately puts the idea that you are an aggressive group. I also think there is a big difference in how well you can train a dog versus an ape versus a shark or a hippo, etc. Even just with dogs, some can be trained very well and some can't, and it doesn't really matter how good you are at training. If you have some large, normally aggressive, carnivorous beast (you know, the kind thats likely to be good in combat) its base instincts and actions can't be totally trained away and its going to be acting on its base nature on occasion.


And as mentioned, a normally wild and aggressive beast is not likely to be allowed in town at all, its going to get a lot of attention from everyone, its not going to be allowed in stores with you and it probably can't be left unattended for the night while you sleep or run into a shop or head to the castle to talk to the Sergent or whatever other mundane tasks you would have to be doing.

[Doug Lampert]

But at the same time having to call back your animal from attacking someone if they get aggressive with you, even just verbally, is not generally going to send a good sign to the guards, noble, king, or whomever else you might be meeting with.

Oh? It's not? Seriously, most people have some familiarity with pet animals, and are going to be well aware that physically assualting the owner in the presence of a pet dog has one of three likely outcomes.

1) The dog attacks.
2) The dog acts angry and is called off or restrained by the owner.
3) The dog is called off but attacks anyway.

That the dog does (2) is NOT going to make a bad impression on anyone over the age of six. That's the best alternative anyone sane should expect.

Normal animals behaving like normal animals is NOT some horrid shock. (Well, maybe it is in D&D land, they can't even identify a dog without actual training in knowedge nature after all.)

But in D&D land they're probably familiar with the concept of magical companion creatures.

DougL

[Coidzor]

But at the same time having to call back your animal from attacking someone if they get aggressive with you, even just verbally, is not generally going to send a good sign to the guards, noble, king, or whomever else you might be meeting with.

Guards who get aggressive with you need to be put in their place. Simple as that. Employers that mistreat your PC in that way will not remain employers for long.

Because these sorts of actions. They're horribly telegraphed in advance cues from the DM.

[Flickerdart]

"This is my pet bear, Bearington."
"How amusing! Can it do tricks?"

"This is my friend Grug the Orc Barbarian."
"Guards! Get this subhuman creature out of my sight!"

You can play that card both ways. Nobody is racist against bears, plenty of nobles won't stand for other humanoids.

[Erloas]

Oh? It's not? Seriously, most people have some familiarity with pet animals, and are going to be well aware that physically assualting the owner in the presence of a pet dog has one of three likely outcomes.
In most cases animals will get aggressively defensive long before people will, and you don't even have to be physical about it, even tone of voice can very well do it. Considering that being authoritative and somewhat aggressive is the job of a city guard, then them acting like that and your pet getting ready to attack them isn't going to go over well.
And of course its not just a city guard that might have a situation like that. If you're talking to anyone with authority then they're probably used to yelling at other people. People like nobles, judges, kings, the sort of people that would be working with adventurers. And if an animal gets even slightly aggressive with them they are likely to have it thrown out of the area or simply killed on the spot. Of course there are a lot of potential attitudes for those sorts of people to take and obviously it wouldn't be a problem at all times.

As for putting a guard in his place or finding new employers thats all basically working under the assumption that the world revolves around the players and that they are more important then others. And maybe at level 12 there could be a case made for that in some areas and some campaigns, but its almost never going to be the case before maybe level 5.

As for the half orc fighter/barbarian/whatever that is about the same thing. Some places are going to be much more paranoid about it then others. But at least with an orc/half-orc there is probably more of a precedence for them being around as civilians (in most settings) then it is to have a "wild" animal like a bear or a dire anything walking around town. A dog of course, being a common pet, it more likely to go through things a lot easier, just as generally speaking an elf or gnome isn't going to draw nearly the attention of a goblin or gnoll in most predominately human cities. And of course things are likely to change from one area to another.

[Taelas]

I'm not talking about random, rabid assaults...but I am talking about genuine animal behavior.
For which we have absolutely no rules -- thus, animal behavior is what the GM says it is.

[Gnaeus]

As for the half orc fighter/barbarian/whatever that is about the same thing. Some places are going to be much more paranoid about it then others. But at least with an orc/half-orc there is probably more of a precedence for them being around as civilians (in most settings) then it is to have a "wild" animal like a bear or a dire anything walking around town.

Except that there are rules about buying trained animals, so presumably, in big city, there are people with trained animals who have them for sale.

Except that every druid and many rangers have an animal companion, so in any location where druids are reasonably common, people will see a guy walking down the street with a pet hippo and assume "Druid or Ranger". Could be any alignment, probably neutral. As opposed to Orc...usually savage, probably evil.

[Talya]

Yeah, no. While you certainly have a point that animal companions need to behave like animals, they are also not ordinary animals. They are trained, and behave according to the Handle Animal skill.

While in the real world, you cannot train wolves and expect them to behave like dogs, that's exactly what happens in D&D by RAW.

Minor nitpick: Wolves ARE dogs (Canus Lupus). The separate species designations of Canus Familiaris and Canus Dingo were abandoned years ago. (They're now subspecies.) There's no major biological distinction between them. And wolves do domesticate...they just have a few behavioral quirks. (Less than, say, "Pitbull" dogs, but like all breeds they have quirks.)

[Erloas]

Except that there are rules about buying trained animals, so presumably, in big city, there are people with trained animals who have them for sale.

Except that every druid and many rangers have an animal companion, so in any location where druids are reasonably common, people will see a guy walking down the street with a pet hippo and assume "Druid or Ranger". Could be any alignment, probably neutral. As opposed to Orc...usually savage, probably evil.

I don't know the rules with trained animal purchasing other then basic work animals. Not knowing for sure I would assume most of the trained animals are things like dogs, horses, oxen, parrots, hawks, camels, that sort of thing. I don't think you're going to find a lot of tigers, badgers, and sharks, let alone the more exotic fantasy animals.

And along those same lines, I don't know the tables for sure but it usually takes a very large city before you find people with class levels over maybe 2-5. So even in a large city there might only be a hand full of druids or rangers that are even capable of getting a rather mundane animal, let alone the more exotic ones. That and most druids and rangers probably aren't spending a lot of time in cities and even if they do they're most likely to be using more local, less fear inspiring types of animals, for the same reasons why it would be a problem for players to bring them into town.

[Talya]

I don't know the rules with trained animal purchasing other then basic work animals. Not knowing for sure I would assume most of the trained animals are things like dogs, horses, oxen, parrots, hawks, camels, that sort of thing. I don't think you're going to find a lot of tigers, badgers, and sharks, let alone the more exotic fantasy animals.

And along those same lines, I don't know the tables for sure but it usually takes a very large city before you find people with class levels over maybe 2-5. So even in a large city there might only be a hand full of druids or rangers that are even capable of getting a rather mundane animal, let alone the more exotic ones. That and most druids and rangers probably aren't spending a lot of time in cities and even if they do they're most likely to be using more local, less fear inspiring types of animals, for the same reasons why it would be a problem for players to bring them into town.


Animal companions are magically trained by the bond (see the "Bonus Tricks" on the animal companion chart)...in addition to the tricks the druid chooses to train it manually using handle animal. An animal companion ends up much smarter and better behaved than any normal animal, trained or not, plus a druid typically trains their own wild companions with ease.

[Taelas]

Minor nitpick: Wolves ARE dogs (Canus Lupus). The separate species designations of Canus Familiaris and Canus Dingo were abandoned years ago. (They're now subspecies.) There's no major biological distinction between them. And wolves do domesticate...they just have a few behavioral quirks. (Less than, say, "Pitbull" dogs, but like all breeds they have quirks.)

Canis lupus, you mean. Yes, all dog breeds are subspecies of the grey wolf, but you vastly underestimate the difference it makes.

The difference between a dog and a wolf is that a wolf is not domesticated. A dog is "just" a domesticated wolf (and that is the greatest distinction between them). You can train wolves, but you cannot domesticate them without turning them into dogs (and it cannot be done within a single generation; wild animals only become domesticated through breeding).

Wolves are smarter than dogs, and they regard human trainers as wolves themselves, and leaders of their pack besides. A wolf trainer cannot enter a wolf pen if he has as much as a cold, as he risks getting attacked--wolves fight for dominance within a pack, and any perceived weakness can lead to attack, even from wolves you have trained from infancy. You can call that "behavioral quirks" if you want; I call it lethal.

[Erloas]

Animal companions are magically trained by the bond (see the "Bonus Tricks" on the animal companion chart)...in addition to the tricks the druid chooses to train it manually using handle animal. An animal companion ends up much smarter and better behaved than any normal animal, trained or not, plus a druid typically trains their own wild companions with ease.

Well part of this might come from differences in Pathfinder. I didn't play 3.5 much, hardly at all, and about all I know is Pathfinder and I don't even know that inside and out. Only having the SRD at the moment, the PF druid entry doesn't say anything about magical control over the animal. There is obviously some sort of spiritual/magical link since the companion advances with the druid. But it says that all control over the animal is done the same as handle animal from another class, just with circumstance bonuses to the checks. It doesn't say anything about overriding the animals base nature.

[nightwyrm]

One factor I've always found to be in the animal companion's favor is that it's expendable. Your wolf/bear/dinosaur dies, the druid gets another, identical one the next day, no big deal. Your fighter dies, the party loses 5000 gp to raise him with a level loss.

Let's face it, both an AC and a fighter are meatshields. A meatshield that I don't mind dying has quite a bit of utility to it.

[TroubleBrewing]

Your wolf/bear/dinosaur dies, the druid gets another, identical one the next day, no big deal. Your fighter dies, the party loses 5000 gp to raise him with a level loss. shrugs, moves on, and hires a Druid to replace their poor, useless friend.


Fixed that for you! :smallbiggrin:

[Z3ro]

One factor I've always found to be in the animal companion's favor is that it's expendable. Your wolf/bear/dinosaur dies, the druid gets another, identical one the next day, no big deal. Your fighter dies, the party loses 5000 gp to raise him with a level loss.

Let's face it, both an AC and a fighter are meatshields. A meatshield that I don't mind dying has quite a bit of utility to it.

Not to single you out, but for anyone; in your campaigns, when the druid's animal companion dies, does another one just appear the next day? If they picked something strange, like a fleshraker, does that just conviently show up the next day?

Maybe it's just me, but most of my groups actually require the player to find the animal they want (I know that's not RAW, but it's rules-as-make-sense). This limits the available options and significantly lowers their potential power. I'm guessing most people here don't play that way.

[dextercorvia]

The powers of nature, months ago, nudged the mind of a young fleshraker. His instincts intact, but warped, the dinosaur pointed north like a lodestone. Hunting, hiding, but always drifting toward something. The impulse grew stronger and stronger, until he came to a clearing. In the middle of the clearing was a man, kneeling. There was a smell of death and burning herbs in the air, and a mound of freshly turned earth nearby. On the far edge of the grass, several others sat, waiting and laughing, but the one kneeling -- that was his companion.

In other words, yeah.

[nightwyrm]

Not to single you out, but for anyone; in your campaigns, when the druid's animal companion dies, does another one just appear the next day? If they picked something strange, like a fleshraker, does that just conviently show up the next day?

Maybe it's just me, but most of my groups actually require the player to find the animal they want (I know that's not RAW, but it's rules-as-make-sense). This limits the available options and significantly lowers their potential power. I'm guessing most people here don't play that way.

Even if the DM requires your druid to take a hike in a forest for a week to get a new AC, the point is that by RAW an AC is replaceable with no expenditure of permanent resources. A fighter isn't.

[Z3ro]

Even if the DM requires your druid to take a hike in a forest for a week to get a new AC, the point is that by RAW an AC is replaceable with no expenditure of permanent resources. A fighter isn't.

Wasn't arguing that one was better than the other, just seeing if this was a common practice amonst groups.

[Gnaeus]

Not to single you out, but for anyone; in your campaigns, when the druid's animal companion dies, does another one just appear the next day? If they picked something strange, like a fleshraker, does that just conviently show up the next day?

Maybe it's just me, but most of my groups actually require the player to find the animal they want (I know that's not RAW, but it's rules-as-make-sense). This limits the available options and significantly lowers their potential power. I'm guessing most people here don't play that way.


If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.

Your group may use whatever houserules they like. Making sense has little to do with a guy who can summon bears or turn into a bear. Maybe the 24 hour ceremony summons the companion. Maybe it creates it from the dirt.

In my groups we play it as written.

[nightwyrm]

Wasn't arguing that one was better than the other, just seeing if this was a common practice amonst groups.

Honestly, I don't know, but I'm guessing that a lot of DMs would prefer to handwave the minutia of getting a new AC so the party would get on with the adventure.

[tyckspoon]

Not to single you out, but for anyone; in your campaigns, when the druid's animal companion dies, does another one just appear the next day? If they picked something strange, like a fleshraker, does that just conviently show up the next day?


The actual rules on how a Companion (and Familiars as well, incidentally) shows up are vague to the point of saying nothing useful; strictly RAW, yes, you may well just be able to call whatever weird thing you started with, because 'this ceremony can also replace an animal companion that perished.' And it's not really a very good replacement if your Fleshraker goes down and you end up with a gopher that happened to have its burrow under the meadow where you did the ceremony, is it?

My common-sense ruling would be that either you can track down a specific animal and bond to it, or you can just do the ritual and you'll randomly get a creature that would sensibly live in the area where you're doing your ritual. In your typical temperate forest area, that basically means wolf or bear, but the DM would be just as well justified to throw you a deer or an owl or a badger or something (so you probably should have at least a few points in Survival + Track so you can actually find the animal you want.)

[Claudius Maximus]

I play it in a similar way, where the druid sits for a day and puts out a supernatural calling of sorts, and one or more appropriately powerful local animals might respond.

You might not always get the exact companion you want, but even I'm not going to put tyrannosauruses in the north pole or something.

[Taelas]

I'd give them a list and say "These are the animals available in this locale. Choose."

[Andorax]

For what it's worth:

1) It was said that there's no RAW that states how an animal behaves, so it's up to the DM. I wholeheartedly agree...it is up to the DM, not absolute remote Druid control.

For the party's sake, I sincerely hope that uber-intelligent animals are the domain of the druid's animal companion only, and that the DM isn't playing the wild animals they face in the woods as beyond-2 Int creatures in turn.


2) If you want to be really technical, the party's dead fighter is replaced by another character (possibly a fighter, possibly something else), usually within 24 hours, under highly contrived circumstances, fully equiped and ready to adventure (unless, of course, you're rescuing him from the dungeon where the last one got killed).

The druid's animal companion, on the other hand, shows up with only its free, lone (until advanced) bonus trick, and takes weeks to learn more. Your first one can be handwaved to have its full 7 tricks, but any replacements have to be trained up "on stage".

Campaigns vary widely about how much or little of a resource time is.


3) Yes, I give Orc PCs (and wierder things) plenty of flack as well...prejudice exists in my campaigns too, and hats of disguise are often considered as prized (and vital) as heward's haversacks...especially for "that one player".

Yeah, you know which one I mean...chances are, you have one too if you're a DM.


4) I stand corrected on the "talking out of turn" issue.

Do I really need to come up with more examples as to the comparative benefits of an intelligent (and with the exception of barbarians, literate) PC as compares to a max-int-of-2 animal compainion? Or start into the issues that a lack of opposible thumbs might bring to the table?

While I'll grant that arcane lock will defeat most fighters...a door with a doorknob will stop most wolves.

[Claudius Maximus]

I think the bigger point here is that the fighter's most significant edge over the AC is "not being an animal" when it should really be "is better at fighting."

I think the fighter is more valuable to a party over all than just the animal companion, especially since he gets his own wealth and equipment, but the margin here is much smaller than it really ought to be.

[TheCountAlucard]

Or start into the issues that a lack of opposible thumbs might bring to the table?There's no rules for opposable thumbs. :smalltongue:


While I'll grant that arcane lock will defeat most fighters...a door with a doorknob will stop most wolves.Eh, it's just gotta make a DC 13 Strength check. You know, something that, as an animal companion, it can do by taking ten. Or, y'know, let the druid open it. Hell, though, if we really wanna get technical about this stuff, you don't really need opposable thumbs to open a door with a knob; I've seen animals do it. Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvKhliFYo3c&NR=1) a video of a cat doing it, presumably completely untrained, but let's go ahead and call that a "trick."

Actually, another point that I could make... where is he going to find a doorknob? The things weren't invented until 1878, certainly not what others would call the age of fantasy.

[Coidzor]

As for putting a guard in his place or finding new employers thats all basically working under the assumption that the world revolves around the players and that they are more important then others. And maybe at level 12 there could be a case made for that in some areas and some campaigns, but its almost never going to be the case before maybe level 5.

And you're working under the assumption that the players are to be treated as less than dirt by the DM at every opportunity in order to screw them over. Neither is going to be the case for the majority of games and even in games where it's that way most of the time it's generally not going to be that way all of the time. :smalltongue:


justified

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk&feature=related)

[Erloas]

And you're working under the assumption that the players are to be treated as less than dirt by the DM at every opportunity in order to screw them over. Neither is going to be the case for the majority of games and even in games where it's that way most of the time it's generally not going to be that way all of the time. :smalltongue:
I'm just saying that most people in power, especially in a fantasy setting, tend to be very authoritative and simply expect their "inferiors" to do what they are told. A king that puts up with a lot of crap from some random people wandering into his country isn't acting like a king. A guard, that is on the lookout for and used to dealing with petty criminals and thugs, is not likely to treat the random group of strangers in town as visiting diplomats just because they happen to be PCs.

[SITB]

I'm just saying that most people in power, especially in a fantasy setting, tend to be very authoritative and simply expect their "inferiors" to do what they are told. A king that puts up with a lot of crap from some random people wandering into his country isn't acting like a king. A guard, that is on the lookout for and used to dealing with petty criminals and thugs, is not likely to treat the random group of strangers in town as visiting diplomats just because they happen to be PCs.

Because Random Joe guard is totally going to bug the group of heavily armed psychos who kill things for hire. Worse, in FR being aforesaid heavily armed psycho is a valid profession choice that is vital to the economy, and is recognized as a path to nobility/riches/etc, not to mention that on later levels due to all the magical junk the PCs tend to carry having a pet dinosaur probably doesn't look taht much out of place.

[Talakeal]

Doesn't the exalted companion feat require the druid to be exalted? If all the threads about paladins are any indication that's quite a serious disadvantage.

[Talya]

Doesn't the exalted companion feat require the druid to be exalted? If all the threads about paladins are any indication that's quite a serious disadvantage.

People make a big deal out of this. It's not a big deal.

"Exalted" feats simply do not allow you to commit an evil act, without temporarily losing the benefits of the feat until you atone. You are not held to some greater code of being more good than anybody else. It doesn't restrict you to performing the most good deeds possible at all times. You simply cannot willingly commit evil, and must maintain a good alignment. While this is one of a paladin's restrictions as well, they have a whole big code of conduct that a druid with an exalted feat doesn't have to follow.

[TroubleBrewing]

You are not held to some greater code of being more good than anybody else.

Apart from the fact that everybody else doesn't lose the benefits of certain feats or, in extreme cases, whole class progressions due to circumstances outside their control. (For examples of this, see any of the various "Will this make my paladin fall?" threads that crop up from time to time.)

I'm not against exalted characters. In my experience, however, (that's right, anecdotal evidence ahead!) unless the party agrees ahead of time about allowing exalted companions into their ka-tet, it usually ends with somebody set on fire. Sometimes the exalted guy is burning, and other times it's the party thief.

Also, the problem is sometimes the exalted character in question. We've all heard and probably experienced the "policeman Paladin". Nobody wants that.

Tl;dnr version: Without proper discussion, I've noticed that exalted characters in non-exalted-exclusive parties tend to cause more problems than they are worth.

[Killer Angel]

As for putting a guard in his place or finding new employers thats all basically working under the assumption that the world revolves around the players and that they are more important then others. And maybe at level 12 there could be a case made for that in some areas and some campaigns, but its almost never going to be the case before maybe level 5.


I can give you that. But:


I don't know the rules with trained animal purchasing other then basic work animals. Not knowing for sure I would assume most of the trained animals are things like dogs, horses, oxen, parrots, hawks, camels, that sort of thing. I don't think you're going to find a lot of tigers, badgers, and sharks, let alone the more exotic fantasy animals.


When you see things like tigers and sharks, you can be sure you're in the field "level 12 and more".
So yeah, the more exotic and strange animal companion you have, the stronger, richer and famous are the PCs.