NE->NG How?

[Lordof Dorkness]

I have a NE assassin that is only NE to meet prerequisites for an assassin, and I want to make him NG at some point but then, will he lose his assassin class features?
It also seems that it would be very difficult if he gets a reputation as an assassin. Then, every city guard or paladin would smite him on sight.

[Morph Bark]

In Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane it says that if you lose the prerequisites for a PrC you will lose the class features as well. Some argue it only goes for PrCs found in those books. Some people disregard it entirely and have it at "if you qualified when you entered, you always qualify". If I were you I'd talk to my DM about it, perhaps ask if the alignment part could be dropped.

[hamishspence]

Tricky. Some splatbooks say (for PRCs in them) they lose all their class features if they cease to qualify for the PRC- but the DMG doesn't say this.

A case could be made that they are like bards- retain all their powers- but can't advance.

As for Detect/Smite- in some games, this may not be standard practice.

Evil characters might make up 1/3 or more of the populace, and might be pretty law-abiding, and paladins might simply have to accept this- and investigate for wrongdoing, rather than simply attack and risk being guilty of murder.

Similarly "a reputation" might only be grounds for investigation, rather than attack. Especially if they hire out to the government as early as possible.

[IthroZada]

You should have just played an Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a).

Edit: Or, an a more constructive note, ask the DM to change it to an Avenger.

[BrowncoatJayson]

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm), you must be evil to qualify to become an Assassin, but there is no clause about what happens when you change alignments, such as the Paladin or Monk have. As such, after becoming an Assassin, you could change to a good alignment and still continue gaining levels in the class, without losing any benefits.

That being said, good characters will not USE some of the features of the Assassin class, because it is contrary to their alignment. Poison and Death Attack are probably on the no-no list, except for extreme situations. Explaining why you are so good at hiding and stabbing people in the back is hard to explain for a purely good person (non-lawful and non-evil) as well.

[Alchemistmerlin]

I know this isn't really applicable for you, but I houseruled the Evil requirement out of assassin. I'd say have a chat with your GM about it.


Then again, the alignment system is stupid.

[IthroZada]

That being said, good characters will not USE some of the features of the Assassin class, because it is contrary to their alignment. Poison and Death Attack are probably on the no-no list, except for extreme situations. Explaining why you are so good at hiding and stabbing people in the back is hard to explain for a purely good person (non-lawful and non-evil) as well.

So it's okay to sneak attack someone, but if you actually kill them with one hit, instead of two, it's evil?

[Lordof Dorkness]

I have a CE-NE backstory for him but I was hoping that eventually an "Awaken to Sin" spell might help him atone and turn NG, then he could go turncoat halfling from the assassin's guild and start working for the church of heironious as a Consecrated Harrier;
doesn't seem to likely though.

In my game:
Alignment is very important and plays a big role in the campaign.
-changing evil pre-requisites doesn't seem to likely.

[Graytemplar]

I have a CE-NE backstory for him but I was hoping that eventually an "Awaken to Sin" spell might help him atone and turn NG, then he could go turncoat halfling from the assassin's guild and start working for the church of heironious as a Consecrated Harrier;
doesn't seem to likely though.

In my game:
-changing evil pre-requisites doesn't seem to likely.

You mentioned earlier that u wanted to turn his life around, but u were afraid his rep as an assassin would hurt him in the long run,

consider having his turnaround public, like if he's sent to kill a high priest of hieroneous or pelor or whatever, and stays his hand, instead killing another assassin with the same contract, in gratitude, he might be awarded some position serving the church

[hamishspence]

Death Attack is permissible (at least one Good PRC gets it) as are poisons that don't inflict ability damage.

If the DM is willing to rule that these don't, in fact "inflict excessive, unnecessary suffering" ability damaging poisons might be used as well.

The character could move to Good simply through doing good deeds, choosing to not do evil deeds, regretting past evil deeds, and seeking to atone for them- but this tends to take a while.

[Lordof Dorkness]

I like the idea but then if that doesn't happen right my char could end up like this: :xykon:
~EDIT~
I haven;'t played this character yet so my plan is to ave him start off using black lotus poison and move down to drow poison. I will also make him stop using death attack at the point I want him to start atoning.

[hamishspence]

Arilyn Moonblade, from Faerun, managed to practice the profession (as opposed to the PRC) of assassin, without becoming evil- but she tended to engage her targets in straight-up fights.

[Lordof Dorkness]

I was hoping to have him hide in the shadows and use Shurikens.

Is there an upgraded version of drow poison with a higher DC and duration?

[Divide by Zero]

If the DM is willing to rule that these don't, in fact "inflict excessive, unnecessary suffering" ability damaging poisons might be used as well.

Because while hacking someone to pieces is perfectly acceptable for a Good character to do, ability damage is not.

[Frozen_Feet]

Well, first you stop being a nasty bastard who abuses other living being for gits and shiggles. Then... I guess you could start donating to charity and adopt stray puppies or something.

What? That's not what you asked? What's the thread title supposed to be about, then...?

[hamishspence]

It's only poisons as a sources of ability damage that seem to get this- spells that do ability damage don't always have the Evil descriptor.

Probably an attempt to keep Gygax's old "poison is evil" idea and provide a justification for it- didn't work though.

[Lordof Dorkness]

Well, first you stop being a nasty bastard who abuses other living being for gits and shiggles. Then... I guess you could start donating to charity and adopt stray puppies or something.

What? That's not what you asked? What's the thread title supposed to be about, then...?
TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS THE CHARACTER'S ALIGNMENT.
I USUALLY PLAY NG RANGERS (or Exalted Monks) WHO, this is purely coincidental, have stray dogs.
THIS IS MY FIRST EVIL CHARACTER.

[NNescio]

The only reason why the Assassin is evil is because of the "...must kill someone for the lulz no other reason than to join the assassins" requirement.

Unless one follows the BoED's alignment suggestions, which are downright stupid.

"It's evil to deal ability damage with poisons because it causes undue suffering! But it's not evil to deal ability damage with ravages because they can only harm bad guys! They deserve the undue suffering!"

"But it's still evil to use poison against the bad guys because I say so!"

[Taelas]

There's also the whole question of how poison causes "suffering" and is thus Evil, but carving someone open with a greatsword is fine. :smallsigh:

Ask your GM what happens if you change alignment; there is no consensus on the issue.

[Luckmann]

It is something you will have to talk out with your DM. Going from Neutral Evil to Neutral Good is a major shift in morality. You're basically going from the definition of greed to the definition of altruism.

There is no fool-proof way to do this, since PnP isn't like a PC game where you can tally points up until a shift.

Talk to your DM. It is the only way. You really shouldn't be going for an evil alignment to begin with, unless you actually want to be evil. Assassins murder people for money. You willingly commit an evil act. You are not a good person.

Deal w/ it. :smallbiggrin:

[randomhero00]

Personally I say just get your DM to hand wave the alignment requirement in the first place. There's enough bad guys/monsters to justify enough work for a neutral good assassin. I never understood why they were considered evil in a world full of war. Its not like the class forces you to kick puppies and sacrifice kittens.

[Frozen_Feet]

TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS THE CHARACTER'S ALIGNMENT.

Well duh. Just pretend to be your character for a while. Like you do in the games, you know. :smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

You'll probably lose your class features. I say this not because the rules are clear on the issue, but because from what you've quoted your DM doesn't understand alignment. No-one who would put that kind of blurb in a campaign description does.

If he were actually the kind of person who thought about alignment rationally and cared about it, he'd have said something a big more nuanced. Like...

Hamishpence, you're this forum's resident alignment expert. If you were starting a campaign and you wanted to explore alignment issues in a thoughtful manner, how would you put it to your players?

[Dragonsoul]

Helm of Opposite Alignment? I know its cheating, but its a possibilty...

[NikitaDarkstar]

I'd say just convince him to allow the Avenger prestige class. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a The only alignment requirement is any non-chaotic. So you can still play it as you wish to play it and not risk losing your class abilities since you'll only be moving on the good/evil axis and not the lawful/chaotic axis. (Well possibly to neutral for a while.) And it's identical to the assassin in every other way, just refluffed.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just play an avenger.

You should have just played an Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a).

Edit: Or, an a more constructive note, ask the DM to change it to an Avenger.

[Lordof Dorkness]

Helm of Opposite Alignment? I know its cheating, but its a possibilty...
Good idea.
thanks for the help everyone

[ericgrau]

Fluffwise none of the assassin class features seem to be affected, but I doubt the guild would let you gain any more levels in the future. Or even if there is no guild I suppose the lifestyle could be hard. The only exception might be poison use if you became lawful, as it is often illegal or dirty tactics, but that's not an issue for you.

[HunterOfJello]

Just play an avenger.

This.


Change the Prestige Class name from "Assassin" to "Avenger".

If there are any actual changes (I don't think there are), then switch those over.

~

It's all up to your DM, but under normal circumstances I think the only abilities that should be lost by changing alignment are abilities that are originally based on an alignment. If you become good after getting levels in Blackguard, then you should lose some of their abilities. If you become a devout worshipper and cleric of Pelor after taking levels in Ur-Priest then you should lose abilities from one of the two classes. If you become a human because of drawing a card in the Deck of Transformations, yet were an Elf before taking levels in an Elf PrC, then the only changes that should occur are ones that were highly dependent on Elf status. Common sense is useful in many situations, but your DM has the ultimate call.

[myancey]

Arilyn Moonblade, from Faerun, managed to practice the profession (as opposed to the PRC) of assassin, without becoming evil- but she tended to engage her targets in straight-up fights.

Yeah, and Erevis Cale definitely wasn't a purely evil character. I felt that he was more neutral than anything.

You could also just play your character as having loyalty to certain players that differs from his actual alignment.

I personally house-ruled that the assassin didn't have to be evil. Worth chatting with the DM.

[hamishspence]

I would have gone with Cale starting out as evil and sliding toward Neutral over time.

Also- in Champions of Ruin, Evil aligned characters can be very flexible- they aren't all "purely evil"- some can be evil more because of what they do (regular Evil deeds) than why they do it (it might be to help others, rather than to help themselves).

[LordBlades]

Assassins murder people for money.


Isn't that what most adventurers do? Go out seeking (usually sentient) beings to kill them for fame and fortune? :smallwink:

[hewhosaysfish]

It also seems that it would be very difficult if he gets a reputation as an assassin. Then, every city guard or paladin would smite him on sight.

Let's have a look at the Assassin class:

Hide and Move Silently as Pre-reqs for the PrC: Check.
Hide and Move Silently as class-skills: Check.
Sneak attack and death attack vs unaware targets: Check.
Spell list including disguise self, invisiblity and undetectable alignment: Check.
Dude in the picture has something over his face: Check.

If the city guard can draw the connection between your face and your crimes, you've gone wrong somewhere...

[Alchemistmerlin]

Isn't that what most adventurers do? Go out seeking (usually sentient) beings to kill them for fame and fortune? :smallwink:

But those sentient beings are green, so it's ok.

[Taelas]

It's not the "green" part that makes it okay -- it's the "evil" part. :smalltongue:

[Alchemistmerlin]

It's not the "green" part that makes it okay -- it's the "evil" part. :smalltongue:

Right, but evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainByDefault) is color coded for your convenience (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodColorsEvilColors).


:smallwink: (oh god, its green! Kill it!)

[noparlpf]

That being said, good characters will not USE some of the features of the Assassin class, because it is contrary to their alignment. Poison and Death Attack are probably on the no-no list, except for extreme situations. Explaining why you are so good at hiding and stabbing people in the back is hard to explain for a purely good person (non-lawful and non-evil) as well.

There have to be good assassins to kill evil people, right? (I think that might be the point of the Avenger variant.) Besides, I'm 99% sure that Drow arrow poison isn't Evil because it only causes unconsciousness, not ability damage. I think I saw somewhere that even a Paladin might be allowed to use it. (Other poisons are generally considered evil. Positoxins and ravages aren't evil.)

[Lordof Dorkness]

I like the idea of sliding toward neutral and then good.
I still cannot find an upgraded drow poison that has a higher DC and longer sleep duration.
Could ranks in Craft(Poisonmaking) increase the DC?

[Luckmann]

Isn't that what most adventurers do? Go out seeking (usually sentient) beings to kill them for fame and fortune? :smallwink:Oh, yes, sure. But some of us has standards. :smallbiggrin:

[Taelas]

Right, but evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainByDefault) is color coded for your convenience (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodColorsEvilColors).


:smallwink: (oh god, its green! Kill it!)

You do realize that none of them (except trolls) are actually green in 3.5? (Goblinoids are mostly orange, while orcs are grey.)

[Luckmann]

You do realize that none of them (except trolls) are actually green in 3.5? (Goblinoids are mostly orange, while orcs are grey.)

Say whatnow?

[Taelas]

Okay, I was somewhat wrong; orcs have green skin. I was thinking of the FR-variant.

[Luckmann]

Okay, I was somewhat wrong; orcs have green skin. I was thinking of the FR-variant.

I thought that grey orcs in FR were specifically called Grey Orcs? :smallconfused:

[Taelas]

As far as I know, it's the only variant of orcs in Forgotten Realms. I could be wrong, though.