Cleric optimization (not DMM)[Pathfinder+3.5]

[Douglas]

I'm DMing a fairly high power game, and I'm coming up a little short on build advice for one of the players. He's playing a cleric, Healing and Water domains, high wisdom and charisma but mediocre physical stats, and he doesn't want healing to be his primary focus. Something related to the Water domain or a leadership-type role would be especially good. I'm particularly looking for PrCs, but feats and other ideas are welcome too. The game is Pathfinder with 3.5 material allowed. Any suggestions?

Some caveats:
a) I am the DM, and I'm willing to tweak and adapt things if necessary, but I'd rather not make something up out of whole cloth.
b) The character is good aligned and that's not going to change. I don't think he'd be interested in anything too lawful/paladinish. Chaotic is fine.
c) I am quite well aware of Divine Metamagic, but I'd prefer something else, especially something less generic and without draining his non-spell healing ability (Pathfinder's Channel Energy replacement for Turn Undead).
d) Casting focus is preferable to physical combat focus, it would take some serious buffing with his stats and the rest of the party to go primary melee and not be overshadowed.
e) I've already considered Divine Oracle, Contemplative, and Loremaster. While these are all good options, they all seem rather generic and lacking in flavor to me. I'm not sure how well Sacred Exorcist would fit. Ideally I want to give him something special and particularly appropriate to the character to look forward to in addition to new spells.
f) I've thought about Stormlord because of storms being related to water, but I don't think it really fits - especially the enhanced javelins part.
g) The build should function well at all levels.

[erikun]

Ooo, this looks fun. I don't have much suggestions for prestige classes, but there are some fun things to do with a water-oriented cleric.

First, note that the Water Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#waterDomain) specifies turning fire creatures and rebuking water creatures. This means you could, potentially, turn and destroy an Efreeti or Red Dragon. More importantly, Black Dragons and Bronze Dragons are water creatures, meaning you can rebuke and (potentially) command them. Mephits, Tritons, and Elementals are also commandable, and while they aren't very good stock fodder, they are much better than skeletons at scouting and communicating.

You can also call an appropriate creature to you with Planar Binding/Planar Ally and command it right there.

The Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bowlofCommandingWaterElementals) is a fun thematic item, granting you basically an endless supply of summons. If you speak Aquan, you can even talk to them and get them to do more than just combat. Decanter of Endless Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater) is also fun and thematic, and has tons of uses.

The Summon Elemental reserve feat (Complete Mage) allows you to summon a basic elemental as long as you have a summoning spell memorized, and does not consume the spell. Much like the Bowl, it can give you an unlimited number of elementals a day (and like the Bowl, only one at a time) but unlike the Bowl, you aren't limited to Water Elementals. The Water Devotion feat (Complete Champion) allows you to summon Water Elementals as well, although only once per day.

Perhaps not optimized, but it sounds like fun to me. :smallbiggrin:
(Were you looking for spell choices, perhaps?)

[Douglas]

We're using the Pathfinder version of the Water domain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/domains#TOC-Water-Domain), so turn/rebuke shenanigans are out.

The bowl is too expensive to be practical, but good point about the decanter. I might see about putting one of those in loot at an appropriate point.

Summon Elemental would be good, thank you for reminding me of it. I'll see what the player thinks of that.

Spell suggestions are good too, though much less important at this point due to not needing any advance planning for the build. Anything on the cleric list from core (3.5 or Pathfinder) or Spell Compendium we'll almost certainly find on our own, but suggestions from other sources could be useful.

Thanks.

P.S. Leadership type stuff (though I'm hesitant about allowing the actual Leadership feat) is also highly desirable, and good party buffing is an acceptable secondary goal. The player recognizes the value of buffs and is willing to use them for other players, but he wants to do things directly himself a lot of the time too.

[erikun]

We're using the Pathfinder version of the Water domain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/domains#TOC-Water-Domain), so turn/rebuke shenanigans are out.
Aww, that's disappointing. I guess that looks okay, especially if you want to shove people around with Surge, but seems much more icy than watery.

Spells are pretty easy to choose from. Even if he doesn't want to do buffing, the cleric has some of the best debuffs as well. Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, and Magic Circle (near immunity to Enchantment and summons) are all very good, and you can even get original with some lower level spells. Perhaps cast Darkness on an opponent's armor, effectively blinding them for the rest of the encounter?

If you don't mind a bit of homebrew, you might check out the Shugenja (Complete Divine) and the Wu Jen (Complete Arcane). They are very elemental-themed divine/arcane casters (respectively), and your player might like having one or two water-themed spells added to their spell list.

[Akal Saris]

How about making a "blaster" character? If his god has the Storms domain, then he could use the L2 spell from Champions of Valor to trade one domain 's spell list for another domain for days/CL, allowing him to keep water's rebuking while putting his high Wis to good use in saving throws.

Likewise, Stormcaster from Stormwrack is a great prestige class for that kind of character - the cleric in one of my games has the water/storms domains and stormcaster, and has been having a great time.

A summoner would be another decent option, with the Augment Summoning, Water Devotion, and Summon ELemental feats. Probably not best if he likes doing things himself though.

[Douglas]

Thanks for the suggestion, but Storm isn't on his deity's domain list and I don't think it would fit the character anyway. Both reasons are why I've already considered and rejected (for my advice, not a player request) the Stormlord class from Complete Divine.

I'll consider the Shugenja/Wu Jen spells thing, maybe customize the domain list. I can't remember, is there anything to allow spontaneous casting of domain spells (or just preparing them in non-domain slots) other than the PHB2 variant? Giving up spontaneous healing is not an acceptable option.

Keep the suggestions coming, please.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another suggestion is to have him focus on battlefield control. There's plenty of great things he can do to this with a water theme: Flashfrost makes any area effect also a grease spell (as well as 2 damage). He can pick up Grease (reflavored as Ice Slick), Sleet Storm, Chilling Fog (Acid Fog that does cold damage rather than acid), Ice Wall (for more battlefield control), and he's got quite the ability to tell the opponents 'no'.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Suggest that he switch his domains to Winter (Frostburn) and Cold (Spell Compendium). Get the PH2 ACF for Cold. Get the whole party to each buy him a 1st level Pearl of Power and go in thirds for Lesser Rods of Extend. He should also buy himself at least two Lesser Rods of Extend. He should cast (Extended) Snowsight (Winter domain 1st) on himself and the whole party, if someone didn't buy him a Pearl of Power then they don't get one. He should cast Obscuring Snow (Frostburn), again Extended. He should also put (Extended) Magic Vestment on his armor and shield. He can use Cold domain spells for offense, cast (Extended) Ice Axe (Spell Compendium) if he needs to melee, and can keep a lot of utility and situational spells prepared since they can be traded out for a spontaneous Cold domain spell.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Suggest that he switch his domains to Winter (Frostburn) and Cold (Spell Compendium). Get the PH2 ACF for Cold. Get the whole party to each buy him a 1st level Pearl of Power and go in thirds for Lesser Rods of Extend. He should also buy himself at least two Lesser Rods of Extend. He should cast (Extended) Snowsight (Winter domain 1st) on himself and the whole party, if someone didn't buy him a Pearl of Power then they don't get one. He should cast Obscuring Snow (Frostburn), again Extended. He should also put (Extended) Magic Vestment on his armor and shield. He can use Cold domain spells for offense, cast (Extended) Ice Axe (Spell Compendium) if he needs to melee, and can keep a lot of utility and situational spells prepared since they can be traded out for a spontaneous Cold domain spell.Oddly enough, evocation specialists wreck this setup. Gust of Wind blows the mist away, and fireball burns it away. All these fog shenanigans make me think twice about Gust of Wind's effectiveness.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gust of Wind is a line effect, it could possibly blow a path through the snow but little else. Fireball is not large enough to destroy the spell's entire effect. I don't think either of these would end the spell, and since its effect travels with the caster, all he would need to do is move to get the snow to reform in the holes created by those effects.

[Ashram]

Water and Healing, huh? Kinda sounds like a Mercury adept from the Golden Sun series. >_>

I would also go with everyone's suggestion for battlefield control; litter the area with snow and ice. If he wants to hit well at range without having much Dexterity, have him take Zen Archery, which allows him to use his Wisdom rather than his Dexterity for all ranged attacks within 30'.

[Douglas]

The Obscuring Snow/Snowsight combo is certainly powerful, but it's too much of a trump card against most encounters and would piss off the residents of most cities and towns. I'm going for "powerful" not "neuters everything endlessly all day long no save", and it needs to work for city adventuring too without bringing down the wrath of the city guard.

Healing Domain and spontaneous casting of healing spells are both things that are completely non-negotiable aspects of the character that will not be given up, and the PHB2 spontaneous domain casting requires giving up spontaneous cures and is therefore unacceptable (except for the Healing domain, which we've actually already used it for).

Battlefield control is definitely a good idea, but most of that is easy to do on the spot later just by spell selection.

Currently I've got a list of PrCs I'll ask the player to look over: Celestial Mystic (BoED), Contemplative, Sacred Exorcist, Divine Oracle, Loremaster. These seem the best generic Good caster-cleric options. Following the themes I'm seeing in suggestions here I'll look through Stormwrack and Frostburn for possible additions, though I'm not sure how enamored he'll be of either storm or cold focuses specifically. Any suggestions for adding to that list? Full or almost full casting progression is pretty much mandatory, but as long as that's satisfied I'll take any generic cleric, leader-type, or water related suggestions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Obscuring Snow/Snowsight combo is certainly powerful, but it's too much of a trump card against most encounters and would piss off the residents of most cities and towns. I'm going for "powerful" not "neuters everything endlessly all day long no save", and it needs to work for city adventuring too without bringing down the wrath of the city guard.
How would they find him?!


Keep the Healing domain, switch the other to the Cold domain. Get the Domain Spontaneity feat from Complete Divine for one and the PH2 ACF for the other, or get the Spontaneous Healer feat in CD and the PH2 ACF for Cold.

Divine Oracle is awesome, especially considering you can get the Skill Focus prerequisite without spending a feat on it via the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel.

Contemplative should take up the last ten levels of nearly every Cleric build.

If he's an Elf or Half-Elf, Seeker of the Misty Isle is amazing for a single level dip. You can meet the skill prerequisite via Ruathar in Races of the Wild, which is a great filler class.

Paragnostic Apostle in Complete Champion is also good for filling out a build, though you'll probably want to use Cloistered Cleric with it.