Help Optimizing a 3.5 Wizard

[halc]

I need help optimizing a 3.5 wizard, starting at level 1, using only the PHB I and II and the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting.
My DM says that there will be a lot of magic involved in the campaign and that the party should be prepared to fight a lot of magic users. This, and remembering the rules for sanctioned wizard duels, made me think about having a wizard focused on shutting down other mages be it in arranged duels or in adventures. I haven't asked yet, but I may be able to get Duelward even though it isn't in those books, seeing as how thematic it would be with my character.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[NikitaDarkstar]

I'd suggest getting the improved counterspell feat then, and look into the Archmage prestige class possibly. (It's in the DMG but logically you should be allowed to use it.) I don't know enough about Forgotten Realms to suggest anything for it or from it so this is just from the top of my head here.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, or the more current Player's Guide to Faerun?

Human from Thay, specialist Conjurer, PH2 ACF for Abrupt Jaunt, Tattoo Focus feat, plan on going into Red Wizard (DMG version), afterward maybe Archmage but that's quite a long ways off. Lawful Neutral is a safe alignment for a Red Wizard, if you don't want to (or can't) play an evil character.

Here's the Batman Wizard Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002), you'll probably just stick to the core stuff and use the above class build.

Use Simulacrums for Circle Magic, put them in a Portable Hole to carry them with you.

[Aharon]

Can you store them in portable holes? I thought that, as rather real copies, they also share your type and need to breathe.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Simulacrum is a partially-real illusion, formed from ice and snow, and only appears to be the same as the original. I'm pretty sure there was a clarification somewhere that they're constructs, but I can't seem to find it.

[Cofniben]

Use these spells -

0- Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Message, touch of Fatigue, and Open/close
1st- Alarm, Shield*, Mage Armor*, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Identify, Charm Person, Magic Missile*, Cause Fear, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Expeditious Retreat.
2nd- Melf's Acid Arrow, Locate Object, Tasha's hidious Laughter, Touch of Idiocy, Scorching Ray, Blur, Spectral Hand, Alter Self, Fox's Cunning, Rope Trick*, Spider Climb
3rd-Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Fireball, Lightning Bold, Vampiric Touch, Blink, Fly*
4th- Evard's Black Tentacles, Ice Storm, Invisibility Greater*, Animate Dead, Polymorph*
5th- Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Cloud Kill, Teleport*, Dominate Person, Cone of Cold*, Wall of Force*, Nightmare, Permanency*
6th- Anti-Magic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Acid Fog, True Seeing*, Geas/Quest, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate*
7th- Teleport Greater*, Hold Person Mass, Power Word Blind*, Force Cage*, Mordenkainen's Sword, Control Weather, Limited Wish*
8th- Mind Blank*, Trap Soul, Otto's Irresistible Dance*, Power Word Stun, Polar Ray*, Sun Burst, Clone*, Iron Body*
9th- Freedom*, Mordenkainen's Disjunction*, Imprisonment, Gate*, Foresight*, Meteor Swarm*, Wail of the Banshee, Time Stop*, Wish*

Feats- Eschew Materials, Spell Mastery, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and any other Metamagic Feats

*These are a must

[Flame of Anor]

Remind me why cone of cold is a "must"? You have to get right up to the enemy combatants...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ignore the above list, specialize in Conjuration and pick Evocation and Enchantment as prohibited schools. Your spells should focus on crowd control, buffing your allies, and keeping your opponents from being able to do anything significant.

Look at the Batman Wizard Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) for spell choices, and keep in mind your job is not to deal damage. The first list there is conveniently only spells from the PHB, all of which you'll be able to use.

[myancey]

Remind me why cone of cold is a "must"? You have to get right up to the enemy combatants...

While I'm not sure if it's a must--Cone of Cold wrecks stuff. Nice thing about...Ice Devils..I believe? I wrecked a optimized party of the appropriate CR with that dude.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If by FRCS you mean Player's Guide to Faerun, Incantatrix is as ridiculous as you can go. Also, if you're not using the completes, does that mean stuff in PGtF that got updated in those books simply doesn't? If so, Persistent Spell is a +4 metamagic for you. A lot of the fun personal/fixed range spells are in Spell Compendium and Complete Mage unfortunately, but PHB still has Greater Invisibility, (Greater) Arcane Sight, Blink, Fire Shield, Repulsion, and, of course, Shapechange. PHBII has the oh-so-lovely Greater Mirror Image; you might think this is redundant with Greater Invisibility, but a lot of foes have a See Invis effect without a True Seeing effect, especially about the time you get 4th level spells. If you can get your DM to rule that touch range spells count as fixed range, you just got yourself half the spellbook to persist. If you're willing to spend some XP on Limited Wish, there are plenty of great Cleric and Druid spells, especially if you want to gish it up.

As for the rest of your spells, make sure to nab Celerity and all the wonderful batman spells people will mention here. Special love goes to the Planar Binding line and the Polymorph line.

[NNescio]

Remind me why cone of cold is a "must"? You have to get right up to the enemy combatants...

I'm more concerned with the presence of Meteor Swarm. Urgh...

[halc]

It's the original FRCS. Also, any ideas of how to play out the first few levels? I haven't ever played a Wizard before...

[Gavinfoxx]

I prefer this guide to the Batman guide. It seems a bit more comprehensive to me.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human from Thay, according to the regions chart on page 32 you can start with a 2nd level scroll and six 1st level scrolls in addition to your normal starting gear. Those scrolls should be Glitterdust and Identify x6. Yes, you can get six free Identify scrolls starting out in FR. Keep max ranks in Craft: Alchemy so you can make Acid flasks, Alchemist's Fire, and Tanglefoot Bags at 1/3 the cost (once your check is high enough to always succeed by taking ten). With 4 ranks, 18 Int, and a 50 gp masterwork tool (PHB) you'll be able to make DC 20 items starting out without risk of failure. Tanglefoot Bags are a great use of combat rounds when you don't want to use another spell (or don't have another).

Pick Tattoo Focus as your regional feat, so you can begin taking Red Wizard (DMG version) at your 6th character level. You also need three metamagic and/or item creation feats for that, so Scribe Scroll, your Wizard 5 bonus feat, and one of your general feats at either 1st or 3rd level. I'd strongly recommend Extend Spell so that at 9th level or at Red Wizard 5 you can get Persistent Spell (FRCS version) and have Persistent Shield cast every day. You'll also want Quicken Spell at some point. If there are any other item creation or metamagic feats you want to get that would be useful in the earlier levels, use an early feat to get it to meet the prerequisites. Otherwise just pick up something you'll want to have later on.

Wizard, specialized in Conjuration, with Evocation and Enchantment prohibited. In PH2 on pages 68-70 you'll find the Immediate Magic alternate class feature, which you should definitely take. It replaces your familiar (a liability) with Abrupt Jaunt, an immediate action 10-ft. teleport usable (Int bonus) times per day. If something attacks you and you're not flat-footed, you Abrupt Jaunt out of its reach and it swings into an empty square. Yes, they did give wizards that.

If someone in your party has a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes, prepare Enlarge Person to cast on them. If someone is foolish enough to make a Monk, prepare an extra Mage Armor to cast on him (and probably also Enlarge Person). Use Grease to trip up your opponents. Prepare Sleep at levels 1-2, maybe switch to Color Spray after that, and when casting it position yourself so that in order for opponents to reach you they'll have to risk AoOs from other members of your party. Just try to last until 3rd level when you'll get Web and Glitterdust, then you and your party will be much better off.

[Squiggles]

If Red Wizard or Incantatrix don't work out for you I'd look at Guild Wizard of Waterdeep. They get access to a Spellpool so you can greatly increase your spell arsenal, +2 to checks made when trying to dispel, a bonus item creation feat, and free Improved Counterspell. That and you get to choose another spell at each level.

[halc]

That Guild Wizard of Waterdeep sounds interesting, but it's not in the FRCS :smallfrown:
Biffoniacus, you're awesome. Thanks for all the advice.
I haven't had time to look at those guides posted, but I'll get on it.
Thanks for the help guys! I'll be sure to post back if I have any more questions and feel free to keep suggestions coming!

[SleepyBadger]

A lot depends on which region you would adventure in Faerun. If it's Thay, you should go for Red Wizard as suggested. If it's Rashemen, then hathran is a must. Incantatrix is always a solid choice especially if there are many casters in your group. Note that it got revised in the FR errata. If there are not many caster allies then Shadow Adept is also something to consider. It will give you +4 spell pepetration against Weave casters and your spells will be harder to detect and dispel. And it doesn't require you to choose a prohibited school. It has drawbacks of course but they are not that bad. Depends on how you envision your character.

[Diarmuid]

I think you've misread some of those Shadow Magic feats. Shadow Magic users actually have a harder time dispelling Weave magic users' spells/effects.

[SleepyBadger]

I think you've misread some of those Shadow Magic feats. Shadow Magic users actually have a harder time dispelling Weave magic users' spells/effects.
Which book are you reading? I wasn't quite specific enough either so I edited my previous post.

[Diarmuid]

Hrmm, I could have sworn that the various Shadow Weave Magic feats went both ways. Perhaps that was in the original FRCS.

You're right, the PGtF doesnt have any such duality and it appears that it is only harder to dispel Shadow Weave and not the other way around.

Sorry for the confusion.

[SleepyBadger]

Hrmm, I could have sworn that the various Shadow Weave Magic feats went both ways. Perhaps that was in the original FRCS.

You're right, the PGtF doesnt have any such duality and it appears that it is only harder to dispel Shadow Weave and not the other way around.

Sorry for the confusion.
Yes you're absolutely right. Just checked it. It used to work that way in the 3.0 Campaign Setting.

[Diarmuid]

OK, I'm not completely losing my mind, only the normal amount I've become accustomed to.

[halc]

Okay, a few things:
First, I looked at circle magic and you need a minimum of three participants. Even with the simulacrum, that won't work.
Second, I'll try and see if I can get my DM to allow the other FR rulebooks. Incantatrix sounds awesome.
Third, if that doesn't work out I think I'll go with Shadow Adept.

If I'm not going Red Wizard, I don't need to be from Thay, so does anyone have any suggestions for good origin locations?

Also, what are some good early level feats? For Incantatrix I have Iron will as my general feat at 3 and Extend Spell at 5 so I can prestige at 6, but I still don't know about my two starting feats. For Shadow Adept, I would swap out Iron Will for Shadow Weave Magic, but I still dunno about my starting feats.

[SleepyBadger]

Okay, a few things:
First, I looked at circle magic and you need a minimum of three participants. Even with the simulacrum, that won't work.
Second, I'll try and see if I can get my DM to allow the other FR rulebooks. Incantatrix sounds awesome.
Third, if that doesn't work out I think I'll go with Shadow Adept.

If I'm not going Red Wizard, I don't need to be from Thay, so does anyone have any suggestions for good origin locations?

Also, what are some good early level feats? For Incantatrix I have Iron will as my general feat at 3 and Extend Spell at 5 so I can prestige at 6, but I still don't know about my two starting feats. For Shadow Adept, I would swap out Iron Will for Shadow Weave Magic, but I still dunno about my starting feats.

Note that Incantatrix got revised in the official PGtF errata (in case your DM uses this) so for her Instant Metamagic ability she would not be able to use metamagicked spells that would otherwise be too high level for her to cast. (So it's not quite DMM cheese.) The class is still great though if you have multiple casters in the team.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Okay, a few things:
First, I looked at circle magic and you need a minimum of three participants. Even with the simulacrum, that won't work.
Second, I'll try and see if I can get my DM to allow the other FR rulebooks. Incantatrix sounds awesome.
Third, if that doesn't work out I think I'll go with Shadow Adept.

If I'm not going Red Wizard, I don't need to be from Thay, so does anyone have any suggestions for good origin locations?

Also, what are some good early level feats? For Incantatrix I have Iron will as my general feat at 3 and Extend Spell at 5 so I can prestige at 6, but I still don't know about my two starting feats. For Shadow Adept, I would swap out Iron Will for Shadow Weave Magic, but I still dunno about my starting feats.

Thay is still great because you can get 900 gp worth of free scrolls starting out.

I think you misunderstand circle magic and/or simulacrum. A simulacrum counts as a separate creature from its creator, you make simulacrums of yourself and they each have the Tattoo Focus feat and levels in Wizard and Red Wizard. They can act as the other participants in the circle, and cast their highest level spells to give you spell levels to use for circle powers. If you get five Scrolls of Simulacrum at level ten, and use them to create simulacra of yourself, they'll each be 5th level wizards and be able to each give you a 3rd level spell, thus granting 15 spell levels for your circle powers, plus whatever spell you cast yourself (could be 0-level). At level ten you could have a caster level of 25 all day, every day. Once you hit level 15 you'll want to make five more to fill out your great circle, which will each be 7th level and able to contribute a 4th level spell to your circle. That's 35 spell levels to power you up.

At level 20 you'll want to make new simulacra, nine total. They will each be a Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5, and capable of leading a circle. Inside your portable hole they can spend all day doing circle magic. In groups 5, each will take turns being a circle leader, so each will be a circle leader once and a participant four times. They will be expending 3rd level spells as a participant, and a 4th level spell as leader, so each spends four 3rd level and one 4th level spell each day. Each one will have 16 spell levels, which will be used to Heighten a prepared 4th level spell to 20th level, as per Circle Powers (DMG p194). When those nine simulacra participate in your circle, each one will cast that 20th level spell, granting you 180 spell levels to use for your own circle powers. You can boost your caster level to 40, Heighten some save-or-die spells to 20th level, make some Maximized Empowered 20th level Disintegrates at caster level 40, etc.

[halc]

Oh wow... I wasn't aware you could have more than one! Hmm, that brings it into a whole new level of sillyness... I'll take a look at that then.

As to my other question though, what are good starting feats? If I were to go Red Wizard, Start with Tattoo focus plus another, then get another at 3 (Are any of the Item Creation Feats worth it with the XP loss incurred through producing the items?), then get Extend at 5?

So I guess if Red Mage I need advice on a 1st level and a 3rd level feat
On the others I need suggestions for two first level feats.

EDIT:
Thought of one more thing: Our party consists of a Bard, a Cleric, a Ranger, and a Duskblade. Would that number of casters make a Incantatrix more viable?

[BinaryMage]

Oh wow... I wasn't aware you could have more than one! Hmm, that brings it into a whole new level of sillyness... I'll take a look at that then.

As to my other question though, what are good starting feats? If I were to go Red Wizard, Start with Tattoo focus plus another, then get another at 3 (Are any of the Item Creation Feats worth it with the XP loss incurred through producing the items?), then get Extend at 5?

So I guess if Red Mage I need advice on a 1st level and a 3rd level feat
On the others I need suggestions for two first level feats.

I'm going to get abused for suggesting this, but I always get Improved Initiative for all my casters. As Treantmonk so eloquently put it, the sooner you go, the sooner your team wins.

In addition to Improved Initiative, if you're going the incantatrix route, you'll need Iron Will (PrC requirement) before level 6, so best take that at some point. (If you can play Incantatrix, do, it is very, very good)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Craft Wondrous is pretty decent if you can get the downtime to use it, if your party will pay you 75-90%+ of market, and if your DM does XP properly so that you'll catch back up. Selling your party slightly cheaper items, and making a big profit on them, then making your own items at half price, can lead to some really silly stuff. However, if you can't get access to Magic Item Compendium then it's probably not worth getting unless you can make custom items (DMG p285, Table 7-33), in which case it can get completely silly. If you do get Craft Wondrous Item, definitely take Magical Artisan from FRCS.

If you're not using Player's Guide to Faerun, then you can take as many regional feats as you can qualify for (via Kn: Local 2 ranks per region). Sadly, most of the FRCS regional feats aren't even worth considering. PGtF made most of them significantly better and added even more, and it made other feats worse. One such feat is Spellcasting Prodigy, which will count your Int score as 2 higher for bonus spells and save DCs, the PGtF version doesn't count toward DCs and probably isn't even worth having. Spending one feat to get +1 DC to all of your spells plus some bonus spells is definitely worth it, so take that if you're not going to use PGtF.

[SleepyBadger]

...EDIT:
Thought of one more thing: Our party consists of a Bard, a Cleric, a Ranger, and a Duskblade. Would that number of casters make a Incantatrix more viable?
Yes. The Incantarix has the ability to apply metamagic to the spells of allies so the more the better.