Sword-and-board or TWF? (Update in last post)

[WarKitty]

I'm building a melee bard/paladin cross and having some trouble figuring out which of a few options are most effective. The game is Pathfinder, SRD with limited 3.5 options per DM approval (so one or two items or feats are ok, but no 3.5. classes). Doing a dex-based build going combat-maneuver based at higher levels.

Sword-and-board
Pros: slightly higher AC for lower levels, access to power attack
Cons: fewer hits per turn,

TWF:
Pro: more hits for later levels, greater chance of landing maneuver
Con: Eats up feats

Sword-and-spiked shield
Pro: AC or weapon, as desired
Con: eats even more feats, still have to pick TWF or power attack

[Seerow]

Sword and Board Two Weapon Fighter!



Or really, neither. Two Handed fighting is strictly better, even if you have a higher dex.

[MeeposFire]

Either wield two shields or two hand a heavy shield. Both are decent.

[WarKitty]

Either wield two shields or two hand a heavy shield. Both are decent.

Let's keep the silliness to a minimum, shall we?

Two-handed fighting doesn't work with weapon finesse, and I don't have the strength to keep my to-hit up.

[Seerow]

Let's keep the silliness to a minimum, shall we?

Two Handing a heavy spiked shield of bashing would actually be the most optimal route. What's silly about it?

I'll admit two shields is kinda silly though.

[WarKitty]

Two Handing a heavy spiked shield of bashing would actually be the most optimal route. What's silly about it?

I'll admit two shields is kinda silly though.

Just...trust me here. The constraints I'm putting in are because the other options don't fit the character, not because they might not be optimal. Otherwise I'd be using dervish dance.

[MeeposFire]

Let's keep the silliness to a minimum, shall we?

Two-handed fighting doesn't work with weapon finesse, and I don't have the strength to keep my to-hit up.

It is not as silly as you think

http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/vectorstar/8ad9901b3db1a84da00b2dfc165575e1.png?v=266400

Also if you are going full bore dex go dual shields and use shield mastery to eliminate (which works with the two handed shield by the way) the penalties from two weapon fighting and power attack. You will be more accurate than your other ideas (at least for the damage you will be doing and the number of attacks you will do, remember shield mastery eliminates the penalties to imp and greater two weapon fighting so they all are at full BAB) and be a lot nastier.

Now if you don't like the visual, I can't change that part.

[Talya]

Two-handed fighting doesn't work with weapon finesse, and I don't have the strength to keep my to-hit up.

There are at least two cases where it does, though I'm not sure if they remain in valid in Pathfinder - The Spiked Chain (Two-handed weapon that is finessable), the Elven Courtblade (another.) They're all exotic, though.

[Flame of Anor]

Let's keep the silliness to a minimum, shall we?

Two-handed fighting doesn't work with weapon finesse, and I don't have the strength to keep my to-hit up.

Or does it? Get Monkey Grip and two-hand a Huge rapier. Eh? Eh?

[Talya]

Or does it? Get Monkey Grip and two-hand a Huge rapier. Eh? Eh?

Monkey Grip does not work that way.

(Actually, it might. I've just always wanted to say that before someone else gets to it.)

[WarKitty]

It is not as silly as you think

http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/vectorstar/8ad9901b3db1a84da00b2dfc165575e1.png?v=266400

Also if you are going full bore dex go dual shields and use shield mastery to eliminate (which works with the two handed shield by the way) the penalties from two weapon fighting and power attack. You will be more accurate than your other ideas (at least for the damage you will be doing and the number of attacks you will do, remember shield mastery eliminates the penalties to imp and greater two weapon fighting so they all are at full BAB) and be a lot nastier.

Now if you don't like the visual, I can't change that part.

It's supposed to be a street rat turned paladin. Hence I want to stick with weapons a low-life thug might reasonably be familiar with. A spiked shield I can see – you start with a wooden disc and hammer some nails through it. I can't see any character outside of some special forces unit having giant two-handed spiked shield as his main weapon though.

[Leon]

Sword-and-spiked shield
Pro: AC or weapon, as desired
Con: eats even more feats, still have to pick TWF or power attack

Agile Shield Combat feat

[Heatwizard]

It's supposed to be a street rat turned paladin. Hence I want to stick with weapons a low-life thug might reasonably be familiar with. A spiked shield I can see – you start with a wooden disc and hammer some nails through it. I can't see any character outside of some special forces unit having giant two-handed spiked shield as his main weapon though.

A small disc with nails is fine, but a BIG disc with nails is silly? Seems the same to me. But eh, it's your dude.

[MeeposFire]

It's supposed to be a street rat turned paladin. Hence I want to stick with weapons a low-life thug might reasonably be familiar with. A spiked shield I can see – you start with a wooden disc and hammer some nails through it. I can't see any character outside of some special forces unit having giant two-handed spiked shield as his main weapon though.

Considering what was in those drawings perhaps it was a large plank of wood with really large nails/spikes in it.

But fair enough if you don't like it that is fine. Two shields are your next best bet but if you don't like that I don't think there is much to work with in PF.

[Yuki Akuma]

Monkey Grip does not work that way.

(Actually, it might. I've just always wanted to say that before someone else gets to it.)

Actually, Monkey Grip does work that way. Annoyingly.

[WarKitty]

Guys, guys, guys...the question was which option was better, not how to make the best character ever. I don't need super-op here, I just need to be competent. It's not a high-op group, or I'd never play such a class combo.

[Bhaakon]

It is not as silly as you think

http://images.community.wizards.com/...1.png?v=266400


1) judicial duels are not representative of normal combat.

2) if you look closely, they're actually wielding spiked clubs along with the shields.

[Seerow]

Guys, guys, guys...the question was which option was better, not how to make the best character ever. I don't need super-op here, I just need to be competent. It's not a high-op group, or I'd never play such a class combo.

Nobody has suggested anything even remotely super op, or even what classes to use. All they've suggested is that the fighting styles you are trying to decide between are both objectively terrible. People are suggesting alternatives that are similar, yet better mechanically.

[WarKitty]

Nobody has suggested anything even remotely super op, or even what classes to use. All they've suggested is that the fighting styles you are trying to decide between are both objectively terrible. People are suggesting alternatives that are similar, yet better mechanically.

I guess I just can't see a shield-only character allowed in anything but the silliest of games. It sounds to me like one of those optimization tricks that people come up with that don't actually make sense on any realistic character.

Pathfinder at least makes it so that a dex-based maneuver fighter is a realistic possibility (with agile maneuvers). That means I won't be relying on damage past level 7. (Though the feat to get spiked chain proficency might not be bad.)

[Zaq]

It's worth mentioning that using a shield prevents you from using the awesome Snowflake Wardance, while TWF (assuming two slashing weapons) does not. With someone who I feel rather confident assuming is fairly CHA-focused, this is notable.

Sure, you have to ask GM permission for it, but it's pretty much tailor-made for this sort of thing, no?

[WarKitty]

Update: I checked with my GM, and she said the max level we'll be reaching is level 9, and probably not getting that far. So don't have to worry about higher levels.

So the options are looking more like TWF or Spiked chain. Not going to get to the levels where lack of strength bonus is a huge deal. Which one works better for levels 3-9?

[Laura Eternata]

Bard, you say? Dragonfire Inspiration can make TWF pretty effective. By level nine, you could easily boost it to +5d6 cold damage on all attacks, +10d6 with Words of Creation. Granted, I know next to nothing about how Pathfinder works, but you said 3.5e feats are allowed.

'Course, if you multiclass into paladin, the bonus won't be as high. But you said you don't mind if you're not super optimized anyway, so... yeah.


The pure bard buld would be this:
Be silverbrow human.
Bard 1- Inspire Courage +1, Inspirational Boost spell brings it to +2. Take TWF and Dragonfire Inspiration. If you can take flaws in PF, do so and get Snowflake wardance. Otherwise, it doesn't really fit in the build until after level 9.
Bard 3- Song of the Heart brings DI to +3.
Bard 6- Words of Creation, if it's allowed, doubles it. If not, Snowflake Wardance could theoretically fit here if flaws aren't allowed.
Bard 8- Inspire Courage +2, bringing you to a total of +4 without WoC and +8 with.
Bard 9- Improved TWF, perhaps? There's probably a better choice, but I can't think of it at the moment.

Grab a Vest of Legends as soon as you can afford one (unless they aren't in Pathfinder, which would be unfortunate.) It comes from DMG II for 3.5e.

Having paladin levels wouldn't push this back too far. As long as you can get a Vest of Legends, you should be able to reach +4d6 without WoC even while taking only 3 levels of bard. Plus, paladin levels would let you qualify for ITWF a bit earlier, if you want to shake up the feat order.


I apologize if this is useless to you. As I said, I know nothing about Pathfinder, so this is what I'd do in 3.5e (plus I'm falling asleep as I type, so there may be glaring flaws that I'm not noticing.) Hopefully at least some of it is usable.

[WarKitty]

Bard, you say? Dragonfire Inspiration can make TWF pretty effective. By level nine, you could easily boost it to +5d6 cold damage on all attacks, +10d6 with Words of Creation. Granted, I know next to nothing about how Pathfinder works, but you said 3.5e feats are allowed.

'Course, if you multiclass into paladin, the bonus won't be as high. But you said you don't mind if you're not super optimized anyway, so... yeah.


The pure bard buld would be this:
Be silverbrow human.
Bard 1- Inspire Courage +1, Inspirational Boost spell brings it to +2. Take TWF and Dragonfire Inspiration. If you can take flaws in PF, do so and get Snowflake wardance. Otherwise, it doesn't really fit in the build until after level 9.
Bard 3- Song of the Heart brings DI to +3.
Bard 6- Words of Creation, if it's allowed, doubles it. If not, Snowflake Wardance could theoretically fit here if flaws aren't allowed.
Bard 8- Inspire Courage +2, bringing you to a total of +4 without WoC and +8 with.
Bard 9- Improved TWF, perhaps? There's probably a better choice, but I can't think of it at the moment.

Grab a Vest of Legends as soon as you can afford one (unless they aren't in Pathfinder, which would be unfortunate.) It comes from DMG II for 3.5e.

Having paladin levels wouldn't push this back too far. As long as you can get a Vest of Legends, you should be able to reach +4d6 without WoC even while taking only 3 levels of bard. Plus, paladin levels would let you qualify for ITWF a bit earlier, if you want to shake up the feat order.


I apologize if this is useless to you. As I said, I know nothing about Pathfinder, so this is what I'd do in 3.5e (plus I'm falling asleep as I type, so there may be glaring flaws that I'm not noticing.) Hopefully at least some of it is usable.

I don't think any of that is available in pathfinder. The rule with 3.5 stuff is more like "you may have one thing if it's absolutely the only way to make the character work," so I can't rely on a large number of them.

Pathfinder gives you feats every odd level, not every three levels like 3.5

Edit: It's starting to be real tempting to scrap the paladin levels for fighter levels, take healing spells on the bard side, and call it a holy warrior. Maybe whip up a nice magic item in the shape of a holy symbol that lets me cast detect evil.

[Bovine Colonel]

I'm gonna agree with the people who say combine TWF and S&B. Grab a light spiked shield and a longsword or scimitar.

Assuming you're human and aren't taking more than 3 levels in Bard, you could go with something like:

1: TWF, Improved Shield Bash
3: Power Attack
5: Improved Bull Rush
7: Shield Slam
9: Improved TWF

A one or two level Fighter dip might be useful to grab something like Step Up and Combat Reflexes, or to get ITWF earlier. For this build, free bull rush attempts are your friend. You would also have to make Strength your primary stat, assuming you can still qualify for TWF at 1st level.

[WarKitty]

I'm gonna agree with the people who say combine TWF and S&B. Grab a light spiked shield and a longsword or scimitar.

Assuming you're human and aren't taking more than 3 levels in Bard, you could go with something like:

1: TWF, Improved Shield Bash
3: Power Attack
5: Improved Bull Rush
7: Shield Slam
9: Improved TWF

A one or two level Fighter dip might be useful to grab something like Step Up and Combat Reflexes, or to get ITWF earlier. For this build, free bull rush attempts are your friend. You would also have to make Strength your primary stat, assuming you can still qualify for TWF at 1st level.

I believe the whole point of not taking the power attack line was to not be dependent on strength, since I need dex and cha to make the rest of the character work. Requiring strength makes the build too MAD to work.

[Bovine Colonel]

Ah. Whoops. What if you were to use a rapier and grab Weapon Finesse at some point? Nothing says you can't combine Weapon Finesse and Power Attack.

[Groverfield]

You should add [PF] tag to this as to not confuse people. I'd say either do pure bard or pure paladin, due to alignment restrictions, and if you're locked into being dex based, then either pure bard and perhaps splash a bit of rogue if you want to be melee focused, it's also the only way you'll get your money's worth with TWF with what you can do in Pathfinder, unless you want to take four levels of fighter for weapon focus(shortsword) and use two of them.

The reason for people suggesting power attack is for the Shield Slam feat getting the benefit of CMB in Improved Bull Rush which requires Power Attack.

As awesome as it sounds doing some awesome dual shield bashing battle dancer type character, it's going to be hard to balance MAD pains and "not having the feats to be as awesome as the concept is" at low levels.

My suggestion is this: Shortbow and Rapier... you need an open hand to cast your bard spells (unless you don't in [PF].) Just use your Light Crossbow until someone comes in melee range. Drop the bow (free action) and pull your Rapier (move action, no AoO.)

:edit:

Ah. Whoops. What if you were to use a rapier and grab Weapon Finesse at some point? Nothing says you can't combine Weapon Finesse and Power Attack.

Except I think she's made it clear that she's not going to have the STR required to take Power Attack

[WarKitty]

You should add [PF] tag to this as to not confuse people. I'd say either do pure bard or pure paladin, due to alignment restrictions, and if you're locked into being dex based, then either pure bard and perhaps splash a bit of rogue if you want to be melee focused, it's also the only way you'll get your money's worth with TWF with what you can do in Pathfinder, unless you want to take four levels of fighter for weapon focus(shortsword) and use two of them.

The reason for people suggesting power attack is for the Shield Slam feat getting the benefit of CMB in Improved Bull Rush which requires Power Attack.

As awesome as it sounds doing some awesome dual shield bashing battle dancer type character, it's going to be hard to balance MAD pains and "not having the feats to be as awesome as the concept is" at low levels.

My suggestion is this: Shortbow and Rapier... you need an open hand to cast your bard spells (unless you don't in [PF].) Just use your Light Crossbow until someone comes in melee range. Drop the bow (free action) and pull your Rapier (move action, no AoO.)

:edit:


Except I think she's made it clear that she's not going to have the STR required to take Power Attack

Pathfinder bards are alignment: any, and they took off the multiclassing restrictions on paladins. So I can switch back and forth between them - although I'm thinking I may drop the paladin levels for fighter levels, and making it up with bard spells and magic items.

And the second sentence says pathfinder - I assume people do read the first post?

[Tvtyrant]

Are you calling this man silly for two handing a shield? http://zerox.wikispaces.com/file/view/GoofyBBSByZerox.png

[Groverfield]

Pathfinder bards are alignment: any, and they took off the multiclassing restrictions on paladins. So I can switch back and forth between them - although I'm thinking I may drop the paladin levels for fighter levels, and making it up with bard spells and magic items.

And the second sentence says pathfinder - I assume people do read the first post?

Fighter would be a good choice, specializing in light armor to optimize what you're restricted to with bard. With 4 levels of fighter you can get Weapon Specialization, which would make TWF almost worth it, except for needing to drop one to cast anything, unless you want to forget that bards have spells. At this point I'd almost suggest asking your DM if you can use Weapon Finesse with a quarterstaff or maybe even a two-bladed sword (say you get one forged with shortswords instead of longswords for 1d6/1d6 instead, so it's light enough to work?) so you can do TWF and not have to drop one for emergency spells.

[MeeposFire]

Are you calling this man silly for two handing a shield? http://zerox.wikispaces.com/file/view/GoofyBBSByZerox.png

No though I do think he is being a little bit Goofy.