Three Druidic Casters

[Zaq]

So, let's take three (and a half) hypothetical characters with access to the Druid spell list.

1) A normal Druid. No Wild Shape, no Animal Companion, normal prepared (divine, so full-list) casting.
1b) As above, but with spontaneous SNA removed. What you prep is what you get. (If you want to think of this as an Archivist with only Druid spells, you may, but that's probably needlessly complicating things.)

2) A spontaneous Druid. See Unearthed Arcana, pp. 64-65. Again, no Wild Shape, no Animal Companion. Just sheer spellcasting might.

3) A Spirit Shaman.

Of these three, which would you say is the most fearsome, and why? Remember, no WS and AC. We're JUST looking at their respective casting prowess. Would you say the balance of power shifts as they level up? If so, why?

This isn't for a specific purpose, mind you. I'm just kind of musing over the different ways to access the Druid list and comparing their pros and cons.

[begooler]

1a) and 1b) Most powerful. Spontaneous casting is great to come up with solutions on the fly, but the limited number of spells that spontaneous casters can choose from limits them. As long as the druid has minimal insight into what he is doing that day, he can prepare somewhat appropriate spells

Beyond that, 3 I think is a bit stronger than 2, because a Spirit Shaman gets more class features than a Spontaneous Druid that has had WS and AC amputated.

[Psyren]

The winner is 4) Archivist :smallbiggrin:

[Heatwizard]

I read the topic title, and thought "Three Druidic casters walk into a bar..."

[HunterOfJello]

Here are my rankings assuming the characters are in a campaign that isn't full of spirits and incorporeal enemies that the Spirit Shaman would have extra abilities against. Most campaigns don't take place in Ghostwalk, so that part shouldn't be an issue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 > 1b > 3 >?> 2



I haven't played a druid in a game before, but based on the conclusions seemingly everyone has arrived at concerning wizards and sorcerers, I've ranked the druid variants you've listed with the assumption that prepared casting of a large spell list is superior to spontaneous casting of a short spell list.

1 is obviously better than 1b by the pure fact that they get one extra spell per level.

Next the prepared casters get the one-up on the spontaneous casters.

~

Finally, I put the Shaman above the spontaneous druid. These two classes are somewhat similar by their spontaneous casting. However, the shaman's choice of which spells they want to cast per day (albeit with a slightly smaller list per day) along with the class features that the Spirit Shaman gets would likely give them the advantage.

I know that you probably wanted us to consider the Spirit Shaman's casting abilities only, but their class features aren't completely terrible. At 5th level they get Follow the Guide(Su) which allows them an extra save against any enchantment spell or effect one round after failing it. That ability isn't amazing, but it is pretty impressive and would definitely become useful at multiple points in a campaign. At 9th level they get an odd ability called Spirit Form (Su) where they can become incorporeal for 1 minute per day. I'm not sure how great this ability is, but I'm sure a smart player could find some good uses for it.

At 10th level, the spirit shaman gets Guide Magic (Su) which works like the Solicit Psicrystal power of a Psion without having to pay a feat and power points to manifest the power. The Spirit Guide can concentrate on spells for you. Also, the spirit guide isn't actually present, so no one can interrupt it. This is great for a number of druid powers that require concentration including summoning spells and damage spells. The quick look I gave at the abilities above 10th level haven't given me a great impression of them, but once a character is that high of a level, their Tier 1 spellcasting has made them powerful enough that most class' features don't matter much anyway (excluding normal druids).

~

Comparing the spontaneous druid spellcasting with the spirit shaman's spellcasting only still puts me slightly in favor of the spirit shaman. A few important things to note are that according to UA, it seems that druids get every Summon Nature's Ally spell added to their list. (The specific wording of the entry makes it seem like it could go either way, but the mention of the 0 spells known listings makes me think that they do get them.)

If we ignore 0 level spells then for most of the early levels, Spirit Shaman have almost the same number of spells known each day as Spontaneous Druids do. The SponDruids do have the advantage of SNA which is a powerful spell, but the spirit shaman have the advantage of choosing their spells per day. Ultimately, I chose to compare the maximum spells known of the SponDruid and Spirit Shaman from their respective charts.

The SponDruid (excluding SNA) maxes out at 5 spells known for 1st and 2nd level spells, 4 spells known for 3rd-5th level spells and 3 spells known for 6th-9th level spells. That's a pretty short list, most especially for those high level spells. The Spirit Shaman has pretty much the same progression of access to spells, but can choose which spell they want at their highest level instead of getting stuck with SNA. They max out on their spells known per day faster, but still have the ability to change those spells on the fly. They also have the advantage of being able to grab Craft Wondrous Items and create a number of items to help themselves. They also have the option of grabbing Craft Wand and storing up on rare spells that they may want to use occasionally, but not choose everyday.

The one weird factor that I'm not sure how to rate is the fact that metamagic spells don't work the same between spontaneous druid and spirit shaman. SponDruids use metamagic like a sorcerer, whereas spirit shaman have to select the spell in its metamagic form when they choose it for the day, yet don't have to increase the casting time for it later on. I'm not too familiar with what methods druids choose to use for metamagics, but I would guess that the two most popular version would be Extend Spells and Energy Substitution. Doubling the duration of their buffs is good and changing all of those Fire spells into Cold or Acid could be mighty helpful. In the case of Extend, the spirit shaman would be at a disadvantage. The Spondruid and Spirit Shaman have mixed penalties for using Energy Substitution. The SponDruid would have to cast the spell as a Full Round action, but the Spirit Shaman would have to choose to cast all of his metamagiced spells with that metamagic and lose the ability to change the energy type on the fly as the druid would. (For instance, if the spirit shaman chose Energy Subsitution (Acid) and put it on his Produce Flame, then he couldn't use Produce Flame and have it do Fire damage unless he prepared 2 versions of the spell and used up 2 out of his 3 slots for the day.)

Oh, I forgot to mention that the Spirit Shaman doesn't get medium armor. That could be a slight disadvantage, but probably wouldn't be in the long run. By the time that druids can buy Dragonscale armor to be able to wear medium armor without it being metal, then the character should have enough funds to get their AC up with other methods anyway.

In the end, I think the Spirit Shaman gains the advantage purely for the reason of the 10th level ability and the ability to choose his spells per day. If you ignore the 10th level ability and the opportunity to craft magical items, then the two seem to be fairly even keel and the advantage would probably go to whichever class the player felt like playing more.

[Leon]

1a - The Pet and Shapes are just icing on what is a very good cake and like many very good cakes often unneeded.


I read the topic title, and thought "Three Druidic casters walk into a bear..."

[Feytalist]

Disregarding class features, Spirit Shaman is slightly above Spontaneous Druid in that the Shaman can choose his spells "retrieved" each day, while the Druid is stuck with his.

Regardless, normal casting druid is better if simply for the "know all druid spells ever".

On low levels though, the spontaneous caster might have a bit of an edge with regards to spells per day. This is very low level mind, say about up to level 5. After that, all bets are off I think.

[Coidzor]

1 > 3 > 1b > 2

2 just stinks in comparison with the versatility that Spirit Shaman has. That, and Spirit Shaman has some class features that will do things for him rather than just act as "minimum druid level to enter this PrC" benchmarks.

1 has the full spellcasting abilities of the Druid, 3 has the spontaneous casting but the ability to choose which ones it knows spontaneously each day, 1b is meh but still at least knows all of its spells, 2 is meh and it only knows a handful of spells and is basically a worse sorcerer with some fluffy class features instead of a familiar.

[Kantolin]

...boy am I not seeing why it's not an automatic 3, 1, 2. Spirit Shaman seems to be a better caster than a druid, given they have the same list, both can cycle lists each day, but the SS then has more flexibility after they both pick.

[Psyren]

...boy am I not seeing why it's not an automatic 3, 1, 2. Spirit Shaman seems to be a better caster than a druid, given they have the same list, both can cycle lists each day, but the SS then has more flexibility after they both pick.

SS is MAD; that alone puts it behind Druid. Spell access and bonus spells from Wis, but save DCs from Cha, pushes them towards a self-buffing/gish-based role by dumping Cha, similar to the Favored Soul (who would instead dump Wis.)

But even with that focus, the Druid is the better gish because he can neglect his physical stats entirely and still wade into melee without problems. SS don't get Wild Shape; in a low-point buy game or with bad rolls, a druid will still kick serious ass while the SS - like most other MAD classes - will suffer. And to cap it all, an animal companion is far more useful than a spirit guide, especially at lower levels.

That is what T1 means - "even at the thing you're designed to be good at, I can still be better than you if I try."

[Talya]

i haven't spent a lot of time looking at them, but i'm generally surprised spirit shamans are not rated higher than they are. Shouldn't they be an easy tier 1?

They have all the advantages of cleric (complete spells known list) with sorcerer (spontaneous casting.) This is balanced by having them "prepare" a limited number of spells every day that they can then cast spontaneously. If this was a wizard's spell list, it would be better than a wizard, being a fusion of the best features of wizard and sorcerer together.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

But even with that focus, the Druid is the better gish because he can neglect his physical stats entirely and still wade into melee without problems. SS don't get Wild Shape; in a low-point buy game or with bad rolls, a druid will still kick serious ass while the SS - like most other MAD classes - will suffer. And to cap it all, an animal companion is far more useful than a spirit guide, especially at lower levels.


1) A normal Druid. No Wild Shape, no Animal Companion, normal prepared (divine, so full-list) casting.

As mentioned in the OP, this is specifically just a comparison of casting. Spirit shaman casting with MAD vs. druid casting with SAD, no wild shape, no animal companion.


i haven't spent a lot of time looking at them, but i'm generally surprised spirit shamans are not rated higher than they are. Shouldn't they be an easy tier 1?

They have all the advantages of cleric (complete spells known list) with sorcerer (spontaneous casting.) This is balanced by having them "prepare" a limited number of spells every day that they can then cast spontaneously. If this was a wizard's spell list, it would be better than a wizard, being a fusion of the best features of wizard and sorcerer together.

Even taking wild shape and the companion out, I'd have to say that while I'd put spirit shaman casting method higher than the base druid's (prepare some spells and cast spontaneously from them > prepare some spells and cast them as prepared), the actual spirit shaman isn't T1 material. If the normal druid just got to spontaneously cast what it had prepared spirit shaman-style, sure, it'd be really frakking good, but the spirit shaman's MAD and limited spells retrieved per level (and possibly the 1-level spontaneous casting delay, I don't remember offhand whether they have that) mean that it can't take the best advantage of this superior casting system and reduce its power and versatility significantly enough that the regular druid is still better overall.

It may have "all the advantages of cleric (complete spells known list) with sorcerer (spontaneous casting)," but it also has all the disadvantages of the favored soul (MAD and few spells known at one time) which outweigh that.

[Psyren]

As mentioned in the OP, this is specifically just a comparison of casting. Spirit shaman casting with MAD vs. druid casting with SAD, no wild shape, no animal companion.

I was specifically talking about the tier designations of SS and Druid, not Zaq's scenario. Rereading Kantolin's post though, he may have been focusing on the latter.

[Kantolin]

Rereading Kantolin's post though, he may have been focusing on the latter.

I did indeed mean the latter. I do agree that the druid is better in general mostly due to wild shape, but also animal companion and SAD as toppings.

But insofar as pure casting is concerned, um. Like, if the druid was purely a caster, I'd dive for the spirit shaman first, MAD or no MAD. Hybridized casting seems all kinds of awesome.

[jvluso]

I agree with everyone else on the spontaneous variant being the worst of the three. For comparing the other two, ignoring non-spellcasting, there are two main differences.

The SS is slightly MAD.

The SS can change the number of spells prepared of each level at will, though the druid can prepare more.

The first difference is obviously better for the druid, while the second difference is better for the spirit shaman. However, a single (third party) feat removes the first difference entirely; Dynamic Priest. If this feat is allowed, the Spirit Shaman spell casting is better.

Otherwise, it is much closer, and more of a matter of opinion and other class features, which without Wild Shape or an Animal Companion, the SS comes ahead in, but with either/both of them, the druid comes ahead in.

The Spirit Shaman is not in the tier post, but just looking at it, it has full spell casting (AKA the ability to break the game) and the ability to change how every day (by retrieving spells). What are the two things that make a class T1?

[Luckmann]

Well there's always variations in the tier system, after all.

Druid and SS may well both be Tier 1, even though Druid is technically superior. It just means that SS is in the low end of Tier 1.

[TehLivingDeath]

Let's not forget the versatility spontaneous SNA brings to the table. Healing, blasting, battlefield control, tanking, movement options, trap disabling... it can do pretty much anything.

[dextercorvia]

There was a thread a while back, and the majority felt that the Spirit Shaman was at the high end of Tier 2. I think it can be pushed just a little farther and nudged over into Tier1 territory, but it would still be the lowest of T1. It can break the game, and do it a different way each day, but it has difficulty doing it a different way each encounter.

[MeeposFire]

i haven't spent a lot of time looking at them, but i'm generally surprised spirit shamans are not rated higher than they are. Shouldn't they be an easy tier 1?

They have all the advantages of cleric (complete spells known list) with sorcerer (spontaneous casting.) This is balanced by having them "prepare" a limited number of spells every day that they can then cast spontaneously. If this was a wizard's spell list, it would be better than a wizard, being a fusion of the best features of wizard and sorcerer together.

Spirit Shamans are limited though. They do get to change their spells everyday but they have so few spells known at a time that they are restricted at what they can do at any one time. A favored soul get twice the spells known at a time. So a SS is has more versatility to plan what they are going to do and change it day to day, but has much less during the day. I think that puts it into high tier two but not enough to be tier 1 since it can't get all it needs at a time.

[Talya]

Spirit Shamans are limited though. They do get to change their spells everyday but they have so few spells known at a time that they are restricted at what they can do at any one time. A favored soul get twice the spells known at a time. So a SS is has more versatility to plan what they are going to do and change it day to day, but has much less during the day. I think that puts it into high tier two but not enough to be tier 1 since it can't get all it needs at a time.

By that logic, a generalist wizard drops from tier 1 to tier 2 after they've cast a few spells.


The primary reason a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer is their ability to switch out their spells every morning. On any given day, a sorcerer has almost the same number of spells known, but they are stuck with them, permanently. The spirit shaman has nearly as many spells known as the sorcerer, but can change them out practically at will. Considering most people end up preparing multiples of their favorite spells anyway, how would this not be just as good most of the time?

[MeeposFire]

By that logic, a generalist wizard drops from tier 1 to tier 2 after they've cast a few spells.


The primary reason a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer is their ability to switch out their spells every morning. On any given day, a sorcerer has almost the same number of spells known, but they are stuck with them, permanently. The spirit shaman has nearly as many spells known as the sorcerer, but can change them out practically at will. Considering most people end up preparing multiples of their favorite spells anyway, how would this not be just as good most of the time?

Because you only get 3. 3 is tiny. Does your wizard make do with only 3 spells per spell level? That would be sad. The wizard can get as many different spells as he has spell slots and that is a lot of the power and versatility. Speaking on druids druids have that and free summon monster as spell choices. The spirit shaman does not get that versatility during the day and if you can't do stuff during the day then you are limited whether or not you can change tomorrow. Think about how many spells are useful but you only want to memorize once. A spirit shaman has to take that spell as at best 1/3 of his total spells at that level.

[dextercorvia]

The lack of (within the day) versatility really hurts them. They only get 1 of their highest level spell known, and every other level, only 1 of their second highest level spells known as well.

[Talya]

Where's the dividing line?

A Generalist wizard gets 4 spell slots per spell level. If his intelligence is high enough, he might end up with 5-6 spell slots at any given level.

It's true that this is a 67-100% increase in compared to the SS's 3 spells readied per spell level, although they can cast those three spells readied spontaneously.

Now, there's absolutely no question that if the spirit shaman had the same number of spells readied per level, then their spellcasting method would be better than a wizard. Most wizards are going to ready multiple copies of their favorite spells, anyway, making it not just conceivable, but indeed, likely, that the wizard ends up memorizing just as few spells as spirit shaman on any given day. The spirit shaman just ends up more flexible about which of them they cast.

At what point in spells readied per/day would the spirit shaman surpass a cleric's casting, then, 4? At 5 it's most definitely better. Is four about even?

[dextercorvia]

If their spells readied chart looked like the Sorcerer's Spells Known table, then I would peg them firmly in (low) Tier 1. Wizards (without trying) know 2-4 of their highest level spells, depending on whether they are at even or odd levels. If that is all they got, they would still be in T1. Their ability to add to the collection is what puts them so high in T1.

[Kantolin]

Also, while I know optimization isn't focal, several of the complete divine feats help expand that list to several common things you'd want to do - the spontaneous summoner or healer feats, for example.

This excludes shenanigans of any sort which could expand it (as then we're getting into 'but the wizard could be a focused specialist' and such), but like... really, low tier 1 or high tier 2 at the absolute least.

[stainboy]

By that logic, a generalist wizard drops from tier 1 to tier 2 after they've cast a few spells.

The primary reason a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer is their ability to switch out their spells every morning. On any given day, a sorcerer has almost the same number of spells known, but they are stuck with them, permanently. The spirit shaman has nearly as many spells known as the sorcerer, but can change them out practically at will. Considering most people end up preparing multiples of their favorite spells anyway, how would this not be just as good most of the time?

But compared to a spirit shaman, a sorcerer can pick scrolls from a better spell list. Or the psion can get other powers with PsyReform, if you like that comparison better.

I like calling spirit shamans Tier 2 just because it acknowledges that they're weaker than wizards, clerics, or druids.

[noparlpf]

Personally I prefer the spontaneous option, but that's just for my style of play, which includes liberal usage of Wildshape with limited spellcasting to back it up. I also don't usually use Animal Companions after my DM made it clear that he dislikes them by having trolls eat mine the first night of an adventure.

[Cieyrin]

(and possibly the 1-level spontaneous casting delay, I don't remember offhand whether they have that)

Spirit Shamans choose to metamagic when they retrieve their spells for the day and are stuck with it till they rechoose their spells. No Spontaneous Delay shows up.

I would definitely put Spirit Shamans at the top end of Tier 2, as while their casting method is probably the best combination of prepared and spontaneous, their MAD casting brings them back to on pretty equal ground with Favored Souls and Sorcerers. Chastice Spirits lets them dominate any encounter with spirits (which is a pretty damn wide definition, as how often do you see Elementals and incorporeal undead? Fey and spirit subtype may be less common but between the nice damage and ridiculous save DC (full class level to the DC instead of half?!? :smalleek:), it's well worth using), Protection from Spirits makes you immune to domination all the time and the rest of the features are just pretty nice. Not enough to push them up a tier but they're pretty well designed. Also, saying the druid's spontaneous casting is a point against SS is kinda moot, as most SS pick up Spontaneous Summoner at 1st level, like most Druids pick up Natural Spell at 6th. Wis mod per day is enough and saves you spells known, which is always good.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Spirit Shamans choose to metamagic when they retrieve their spells for the day and are stuck with it till they rechoose their spells. No Spontaneous Delay shows up.

Actually, I was referring to the delay in spell level gain that most of the spontaneous casters have (gain 2nd level spells at 4th instead of 3rd and so forth) which, now that I can look it up, it appears that they don't have. Seems they're a bit better than I remembered.

[FMArthur]

One thing about the Druid list is that while they have spells of the highest caliber to break the game with, they don't actually have that many different ones. I don't know, I think of Druids as being somewhat low on T1 and Spirit Shamans being high T2s. T1 might look like a catalogue of spellcasters who get 9ths and cast their spells in a certain way, but these are merely contributors to what makes them the top.