I like Samurai and Monk

[danzibr]

So the other day I was making a Kobold Monk for my wife to fight against (we're doing a 2-person campaign). I've never made a Monk before, and honestly I kind of liked him. Especially I was looking into the Kobold PrC Monk (forget the name... Disciple of the Eye?). Besides that, Monks get a bunch of cool abilities. Stunning fist at such a low level! That's cool.

And I also like the Samurai found in Complete Warrior. He may not be optimal (and honestly that Dwarf looks really stupid) but ahh... a freakin' Samurai. In fact, I was going to play a Warblade in the upcoming campaign and I'm going to switch to Samurai.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or something, just stating that I see the Monk and Samurai not getting much love around here. I personally like the two classes.

[veven]

In fact, I was going to play a Warblade in the upcoming campaign and I'm going to switch to Samurai.


This right here is the only thing that makes me unsure of whether or not you are kidding.

In the case the you are not, great! Sometimes I wish I was able to get some joy out of classes like the Samurai without cheesing them into something close to useful. But then again my last two characters were a Wizard and an Archivist, I think that might be contributing to my difficulty.

[BillyBobJoe]

So, you like low-op classes? You do realize the Samurai is flat out, the worst melee class in the game tier wise? Monk is better but still bad. If you like the classes, go with them, but it will come back to bite if you do most likely. Also, I would very strongly suggest you don't take Samurai over Warblade. Warblade is so much better it's not even funny.

[agahii]

Any class can be fun if you are a person who knows how to play and have fun. I can play a commoner and have fun. Believe me when I say that it is MORE fun when you can contribute to party success along with the general amount of fun you have no matter what you play.

Also being the DM you can scale for the classes badness so it likely doesn't matter in the slightest.

[Doc Roc]

Any class can be fun if you are a person who knows how to play and have fun. I can play a commoner and have fun. Believe me when I say that it is MORE fun when you can contribute to party success along with the general amount of fun you have no matter what you play.

Also being the DM you can scale for the classes badness so it likely doesn't matter in the slightest.

I'd much rather play a commoner or an expert than a samurai.

[Rogue Shadows]

To OP: Right on.

I like the monk as well. The biggest change it needs more than anything else is to increase it to have a full BAB (like a Fighter). Never ran the CW samurai, but my first D&D session ever (and a later one) were made using Oriental Adventures, so my players played with the OA Samurai - think Fighter with less feats but better saves and skills, if you're not familiar.

The ToB classes...meh...I think I would have preferred it if the "fix" to the fact that the primary melee classes lacked options, was significantly less Vancian in construction. I dunno, something based around skill checks or something.

But that might just be me. In fact I suspect it really is just me. In any event, don't like Tome of Battle.

So, again: Right on.

[Bob]

Well, it has been stated that the monk is a really well designed class, if you consider the designers' intent was for all classes to be roughly that powerful. It is the other material, mainly casters, that was poorly designed so as to be exploitable.

As all of his abilities are self contained and not easily enhanced by outside effects, the monk doesn't benefit as well as other classes do from expanded material, and is like a neat little time capsule demonstrating how the designers expected and intended the game to be played. And it is quite laughable, really.

[danzibr]

This right here is the only thing that makes me unsure of whether or not you are kidding.

In the case the you are not, great! Sometimes I wish I was able to get some joy out of classes like the Samurai without cheesing them into something close to useful. But then again my last two characters were a Wizard and an Archivist, I think that might be contributing to my difficulty.
Glad you approve! I realized when I wrote this some people would think I was kidding, but I'm being totally serious. I'm going to be playing with a bunch of very low-op people (the only guy with a lot of experience is going a Warforged Wizard). I reaaaaaaally planned my Warblade out and he'd be an uber charger reasonably doing 2k damage at level 20. I mean, compared to my wife playing a Paladin... it just doesn't seem fun.

I'd much rather have a somewhat janky yet fun character (I'm going to focus on high Cha and demoralizing, inspired by Shneaky's thread) than a damage powerhouse.

[BillyBobJoe]

Glad you approve! I realized when I wrote this some people would think I was kidding, but I'm being totally serious. I'm going to be playing with a bunch of very low-op people (the only guy with a lot of experience is going a Warforged Wizard). I reaaaaaaally planned my Warblade out and he'd be an uber charger reasonably doing 2k damage at level 20. I mean, compared to my wife playing a Paladin... it just doesn't seem fun.

I'd much rather have a somewhat janky yet fun character (I'm going to focus on high Cha and demoralizing, inspired by Shneaky's thread) than a damage powerhouse.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, OK go for it. Intimidate Samurai is much better than normal Samurai.

[agahii]

I'd much rather play a commoner or an expert than a samurai.

I'm no expert on either :) But I've actually played a commoner, and that is why I mentioned it haha.

On topic, Play what ever you want but remember that you can play the samurai's flavor to exact replica with another class so don't let the class name get you worked up as it is a completely out of game/character thing. Even in a low op game you may have trouble keeping up at later levels even with the intimidate focus. Low level, low OP go for it :)

[danzibr]

To OP: Right on.

[...]

So, again: Right on.
Thanks! I wish there was a multi-quote feature.

This game probably won't run very high. We're starting at 2 (and the only reason we're not starting at 1 is because my wife is going Goliath Pally).

And yeah... I could go something else with the Samurai flavor, but I seriously do like the class. Yeah I realize it's pretty terrible, but I still want to make something out of it. I think my mid-op Samurai will do well with everyone else's low-op chars.

Now I just need to think of a race. Probably straight Samurai, so the build isn't an issue, unless there's some dip that'd really help out my intimidate.

[Rogue Shadows]

Now I just need to think of a race. Probably straight Samurai, so the build isn't an issue, unless there's some dip that'd really help out my intimidate.

For sheer novelty I'd probably go with...mmn...Tiefling.

[Flickerdart]

Well, it has been stated that the monk is a really well designed class, if you consider the designers' intent was for all classes to be roughly that powerful. It is the other material, mainly casters, that was poorly designed so as to be exploitable.

As all of his abilities are self contained and not easily enhanced by outside effects, the monk doesn't benefit as well as other classes do from expanded material, and is like a neat little time capsule demonstrating how the designers expected and intended the game to be played. And it is quite laughable, really.
The Monk could hardly have been the intended balance point, as he cannot compete with level-appropriate encounters. Unless you are saying that every single Monster Manual is also balanced incorrectly. :smalltongue:

[agahii]

I think there is a fighter substitution level that gives some intimidate goodness..starts with a "Z" I think, I apologize I cant remember the whole thing.

[The Glyphstone]

I think there is a fighter substitution level that gives some intimidate goodness..starts with a "Z" I think, I apologize I cant remember the whole thing.

Zhentarim Fighter Substitution - from a Faerun book I think, and it kicks in at Fighter 9.

[agahii]

Zhentarium, though I cant find what book.

Edit, Ninja :(

[agahii]

Ah here it is

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a

[NNescio]

Well, it has been stated that the monk is a really well designed class, if you consider the designers' intent was for all classes to be roughly that powerful. It is the other material, mainly casters, that was poorly designed so as to be exploitable.

As all of his abilities are self contained and not easily enhanced by outside effects, the monk doesn't benefit as well as other classes do from expanded material, and is like a neat little time capsule demonstrating how the designers expected and intended the game to be played. And it is quite laughable, really.

The monk is a horribly-designed class because its abilities don't synergize well with each other. They are intended to be mobile front-line combatants with a bunch of nifty abilities. They can't do so because they cannot move and flurry at the same time. They have problems hitting and depend on multiple attributes to fight adequately. Their 'nifty abiltiies' are also limited in scope and more painfully, number of uses.

This goes beyond mere power levels. It is poorly designed because use of one ability hampers the use of another. It's like having a gun and not being able to shoot unless you're next to your opponent, disallowing you from using its range advantage. Or having a car that only has peak engine performance at extremely low speeds.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Zhentarim Soldier, available free via the Champions of Valor Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). Gives you Skill Focus: Intimidate at Fighter 3, the ability to keep someone's attitude higher indefinitely if you go bully them every day at Fighter 5, and you can Demoralize as a Swift Action with the Fighter 9 ability it grants.

Also, you can get some free bonuses at every odd-numbered Fighter level (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) starting at 3rd.

[Psyren]

Don't Drow have a way to intimidate people effectively? Beyond the Cha bonus I mean. And LA doesn't matter as much for martial classes.


Thanks! I wish there was a multi-quote feature.

There is: see the quotation marks next to the "Quote" button at the bottom of everyone's post? Toggle it on for every post you want to reply to.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a feat in Drow of the Underdark called Imperious Command, it causes your Demoralize action to make affected opponents Cower for one round, and then be Shaken for one round after. It works great with the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel.

[danzibr]

For sheer novelty I'd probably go with...mmn...Tiefling.

Don't Drow have a way to intimidate people effectively? Beyond the Cha bonus I mean. And LA doesn't matter as much for martial classes.


There is: see the quotation marks next to the "Quote" button at the bottom of everyone's post? Toggle it on for every post you want to reply to.
I'll be darned... thanks. I always thought they were part of the same button.

And yeah, Tiefling would be very appropriate. I love it. Maybe I can get the lesser version.

EDIT: Ha. Or maybe I can talk my DM into this (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Kyton,_Lesser_%283.5e_Race%29).

[Rogue Shadows]

EDIT: Ha. Or maybe I can talk my DM into this (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Kyton,_Lesser_%283.5e_Race%29).

I'm not even your DM and I'm crying...

[Leon]

They have problems hitting and depend on multiple attributes to fight adequately.


I see this mentioned quite often and yet have never seen it it actually happen out in the wild where people play monks and not sit and theorize that they are bad - sure they miss from time to time but no more than other character.

[SITB]

I see this mentioned quite often and yet have never seen it it actually happen out in the wild where people play monks and not sit and theorize that they are bad - sure they miss from time to time but no more than other character.

I played a Monk in a non-op party, and I was by FAR the most useless member of the party (it had a Fighter with weapon specilazation being one of the more useful PCs).

But y'know anecdotal evidence and all that rot.

[Seharvepernfan]

You know, a swordsage can easily be a samurai.

max out your concentration, take diamond mind maneuvers (and focus) and take the feat unnerving calm. BAM: samurai.

[Kojiro]

Hm, on the topic of Monk, what alternate class features (like the one that trades the silly slow fall ability for the ability to run up walls like a character from a kung fu movie) and such are worthwhile? The Drunken Master prestige class, in addition to being hilarious, seems pretty useful as well. Would, say, a Drunken Master with a few AFCs and/or a fighting style thing from Unearthed Arcana (or was it Dungeonscape?) be much more useful than a pure Monk?

[LordBlades]

I'm going to be playing with a bunch of very low-op people (the only guy with a lot of experience is going a Warforged Wizard).

So in a very low-op game the only guy with system knowledge decides to play one of the strongest classes in the game. Unless the dude spends 80% of his time doing nothing it probably won't end well.

[NNescio]

Hm, on the topic of Monk, what alternate class features (like the one that trades the silly slow fall ability for the ability to run up walls like a character from a kung fu movie) and such are worthwhile? The Drunken Master prestige class, in addition to being hilarious, seems pretty useful as well. Would, say, a Drunken Master with a few AFCs and/or a fighting style thing from Unearthed Arcana (or was it Dungeonscape?) be much more useful than a pure Monk?

Invisible Fist is decent. Relatively speaking, that is.

Generally, you'll probably want to go for a Talashtora build with a psionic class though.

[danzibr]

So in a very low-op game the only guy with system knowledge decides to play one of the strongest classes in the game. Unless the dude spends 80% of his time doing nothing it probably won't end well.
Yeah I could've phrased that differently. He's going Warforged for flavor reasons, not minding the -2 Int. He also said he intentionally won't maximize his character.

And I like to think he's not the only guy with system knowledge...

[LordBlades]

Yeah I could've phrased that differently. He's going Warforged for flavor reasons, not minding the -2 Int. He also said he intentionally won't maximize his character.

And I like to think he's not the only guy with system knowledge...

Warforged get +2 con -2 wis -2 cha, no int penalty. Coupled with the ****ton of immunities and the fact that unlike most wizards he can heal himself(Repair x Damage are wizard spells) makes it a very good wizard race(I'd rank it just behind races with +2 int and outsiders).

Not trying to criticize your choice on anything, but I just have a hard time imagining how bad would one have to play a wizard not to overshadow a monk or samurai.

[Talya]

I like the monk as well. The biggest change it needs more than anything else is to increase it to have a full BAB (like a Fighter). Never ran the CW samurai, but my first D&D session ever (and a later one) were made using Oriental Adventures, so my players played with the OA Samurai - think Fighter with less feats but better saves and skills, if you're not familiar.

OA samurai is a great 2 level dip for any lawful melee type, seriously.

2 levels of OA samurai gets you:

+3 fort, +3 will, (4+int) skill points x2 (or x4 if you're at level 1), 2d10 hit dice, a bonus feat, and Ancestral Daisho - essentially two Ancestral Relic feats without the exalted good requirement. Ancestral Daisho is a very cheap way to have whatever weapon features you want. Best of all, it's character level based, not class level.

Honestly, if you're building a samurai-like class, the OA samurai is a truly perfect dip. There's no reason to stay in it after 2 levels, however.

[Psyren]

Not trying to criticize your choice on anything, but I just have a hard time imagining how bad would one have to play a wizard not to overshadow a monk or samurai.

You don't have to play "badly" to avoid overshadowing anyone. Just don't steal the spotlight. Wizards are very good at making everyone else feel uber and working behind the scenes.

[Leon]

I played a Monk in a non-op party, and I was by FAR the most useless member of the party (it had a Fighter with weapon specilazation being one of the more useful PCs).

But y'know anecdotal evidence and all that rot.

We have a monk who does very well in our group with no "op" indeed for the 1st Eight levels didn't have any feats and still did well, now with feats is even more awesome


You don't have to play "badly" to avoid overshadowing anyone. Just don't steal the spotlight. Wizards are very good at making everyone else feel uber and working behind the scenes.

Similar with Clerics - just home from the latest session and it was the support that my Cleric and the bard can turn out that makes the rest of the party awesome war machines of destruction (inc the aforementioned Monk)

The bard is not always part of the group but even without his support i can turn the group from middle range level of power into a force to be reckoned with, when the bard is not playing we have a Evocation Focused Wiz who still is buff friendly but covering a differing angle of focus.



A well played Wiz/Cleric is the Lighting Tech that makes the stars shine under the spotlight

[danzibr]

Warforged get +2 con -2 wis -2 cha, no int penalty. Coupled with the ****ton of immunities and the fact that unlike most wizards he can heal himself(Repair x Damage are wizard spells) makes it a very good wizard race(I'd rank it just behind races with +2 int and outsiders).

Not trying to criticize your choice on anything, but I just have a hard time imagining how bad would one have to play a wizard not to overshadow a monk or samurai.
My bad, he's actually going Warforged Scout in MM3... which I never looked at before (but I am now). He said it got -2 Int but it's actually +2 Dex, -2 Str, Wis, Cha. I was misinformed.

[Rogue Shadows]

Honestly, if you're building a samurai-like class, the OA samurai is a truly perfect dip. There's no reason to stay in it after 2 levels, however.

I have a player who ran it for I think 6 levels, before grabbing a level or two of Monk and plunging headfirst into Drunken Master.

The Drunken Samurai!

We introduced his character (he joined two sessions in) by showing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvE6CZNxJpI) video...and then explaining that he wakes up from a drunken stupor and learning that all of that was a alcohol-induced hallucination.

(incidentally, the guy at the end of the video says something to the effect of "You know what? I really love this sword!" I don't know what that movie is about, but I choose to believe that it's about a samurai who snaps and just starts killing Sir Francis Drake and ninjas with six-shooters while random people toss him swords, from offscreen)

The character spent literally the entire campaign in a drunken stupor, approaching sobriety only once when meeting the Emperor herself. He had a horse - a normal horse - who was a wiser and possibly more intelligent being than him, and with heward's handy saddlebags that he kept full of sake. He had drank himself into amnesia and couldn't remember anything before meeting the rest of the group.

For bonus points at the end of the campaign, having finally drank all the sake he had, he found a letter from his daimyo revealing that he was a member of the Shishi (Lion) Clan and that he was supposed to meet up with the PCs anyway and help them on theri journey.

Best. Character. Ever.

[byaku rai]

If you're going to play a Monk, play this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)

[Rogue Shadows]

If you're going to play a Monk, play this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)

That...

...*weeping*

No words...should have sent a poet...

Actually I do have words. Just a few minor gripes:
- I think I would have preferred the monk to get 6 + Int instead of 8 + Int skills. A monk becoming a skill monkey is a good idea, but it should not be able to compete with the skill monkey (the rogue)
- I also think I would have preferred something else to trapfinding, again to make sure that the rogue has her thing that she can do and no one else can. Not sure what I'd replace it with.

These are both minor gripes based on personal preferences. Approaching your redesign from a purely technical I'm stealing it and using it in my campaigns from now on *grabs and runs away!*

[danzibr]

I have a player who ran it for I think 6 levels, before grabbing a level or two of Monk and plunging headfirst into Drunken Master.

The Drunken Samurai!

We introduced his character (he joined two sessions in) by showing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvE6CZNxJpI) video...and then explaining that he wakes up from a drunken stupor and learning that all of that was a alcohol-induced hallucination.

[...]

Best. Character. Ever.
What an awesome video. The only thing I could read was the togizouyori on the sword but I have no idea what that means. Awesome.

[noparlpf]

So the other day I was making a Kobold Monk for my wife to fight against (we're doing a 2-person campaign). I've never made a Monk before, and honestly I kind of liked him. Especially I was looking into the Kobold PrC Monk (forget the name... Disciple of the Eye?). Besides that, Monks get a bunch of cool abilities. Stunning fist at such a low level! That's cool.

And I also like the Samurai found in Complete Warrior. He may not be optimal (and honestly that Dwarf looks really stupid) but ahh... a freakin' Samurai. In fact, I was going to play a Warblade in the upcoming campaign and I'm going to switch to Samurai.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or something, just stating that I see the Monk and Samurai not getting much love around here. I personally like the two classes.

Dude, not only do I like Monks conceptually, but I have seen some very well-built, well-played Monks. I really wish they didn't get so much hate.

As for the Samurai, I do kind of dislike it. Last time I wanted to play a Samurai I just used a pure Fighter and it worked better for the image I was going for. (We were playing a neat two-part adventure; three encounters at first level, then a fast-forward to 20 or 30 years later and four encounters at 18th level. It was really fun, and the "samurai" build worked very well, although I ended up dual-wielding katana instead of one katana and one wakizashi.)

[JaronK]

The Monk could hardly have been the intended balance point, as he cannot compete with level-appropriate encounters. Unless you are saying that every single Monster Manual is also balanced incorrectly. :smalltongue:

Actually, the Monk IS on the intended balance point. You were supposed to die sometimes. Fights were supposed to be challenging, and sometimes you ended up needing a new character sheet or a resurrection. The DM was supposed to need to help you out occasionally by tossing you items you needed and other special help to actually continue on, and you were supposed to be really creative to beat the monsters... charging in and just manhandling the critters was not intended. You were supposed to do things like beat encounters by using the environment (lure the creature over to where you could roll a boulder down onto him) that the DM set up.

And along with this Monk, a healbot Cleric was supposed to provide support while a Druid (who kept the animal companion back where it was safe and wasn't Wild Shaped) would provide a little healing and maybe some blast spells and such. The Wizard and Sorcerer were supposed to launch fireballs and such at it while the Fighter tanked (and the creature, for some reason, attacked the Fighter). Meanwhile the Rogue might get to sneak attack sometimes.

However, this turned out to not be as fun as was hoped, and most classes turned out to be a LOT stronger than expected. But the Monk actually was the power level he was designed for... which just makes him really weak by comparison now.

But there's nothing wrong with liking playing a Monk. Heck, I love playing as a Commoner. It's more challenging! The Samurai, though... I find it a very poorly designed class.

JaronK

[Drelua]

My only issue with the CW Samurai is the way that they fight. Real Samurai did not dual-wield a katana and a wakazashi, at least not most of the time. There were likely exceptions, but they generally used a katana in two hands, with the wakazashi and maybe a tanto as sidearms. That aside, if you enjoy playing a class, I see no reason why you shouldn't use it, even if it is extremely weak, like most melee classes are according to the tier system. Personally, if I was going to play a Samurai, I'd use the fighter class and two-hand an Odachi, since a normal katana was not so large of a weapon as it is made out to be, but that's just me.

[JaronK]

Yeah, the reason I don't like the Samurai is it just doesn't play like a Samurai. The dual wielding thing just doesn't make sense. The weapon draw ability they get at 20 is useless (because who cares about things with so few HD at level 20?). None of their abilities really work well together.

The nice thing is that a Warblade actually feels like a samurai when you play as one.

JaronK

[MeeposFire]

That...

...*weeping*

No words...should have sent a poet...

Actually I do have words. Just a few minor gripes:
- I think I would have preferred the monk to get 6 + Int instead of 8 + Int skills. A monk becoming a skill monkey is a good idea, but it should not be able to compete with the skill monkey (the rogue)
- I also think I would have preferred something else to trapfinding, again to make sure that the rogue has her thing that she can do and no one else can. Not sure what I'd replace it with.

These are both minor gripes based on personal preferences. Approaching your redesign from a purely technical I'm stealing it and using it in my campaigns from now on *grabs and runs away!*

Oddly 1e monks did have many thief abilities including open locks and find/remove traps so having those skills would be going more to the original.

[Rogue Shadows]

Oddly 1e monks did have many thief abilities including open locks and find/remove traps so having those skills would be going more to the original.

Truth. Like I said, it's just a personal preference born from years of playing Rogue: Rogue needs its niche.

From a game-design standpoint I can find nothing wrong with the class.

[NNescio]

Yeah, the reason I don't like the Samurai is it just doesn't play like a Samurai. The dual wielding thing just doesn't make sense. The weapon draw ability they get at 20 is useless (because who cares about things with so few HD at level 20?). None of their abilities really work well together.

The nice thing is that a Warblade actually feels like a samurai when you play as one.

JaronK

I think the dual-wielding thing is a reference to Miyamoto Musashi (or anybody else who uses the dai-sho technique) and weapon draw is a reference to iaijutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaijutsu)/battoujutsu. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battoujutsu)

Still horrible though. And really, I envision Miyamoto as more of a Warblade anyway.

[Morbis Meh]

Personally I absolutely love the monk and samurai as characters but I hate what WotC did to them. The aren't very functional characters in a party and I generally go the ToB route; however, there is this lovely homebrew samurai that I have always wanted to try here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163793)

[Rogue Shadows]

Personally I absolutely love the monk and samurai as characters but I hate what WotC did to them. The aren't very functional characters in a party and I generally go the ToB route; however, there is this lovely homebrew samurai that I have always wanted to try here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163793)

That one's indended as an update to the Oriental Adventures Samurai, however, not the CW Samurai, which is quite different.

[Theodoxus]

I really like the monk class. I like the fact that PF updated it in just the right ways - and that the ACFs for it they provided are even more better - yes, I just said that.

Even the plucky 3.5 monk is fun - even (or maybe despite) the fact that it has such a mixed bag of abilities.

Fast move up to the badguy and hit him once - it's ok, your dwarf fighter friend just spent a double move, and couldn't even hit him! Next round, flurry away! If the enemy caster starts getting the courage to spellfling, use your dodge + mobility feats to maneuver through the crowd and stun his ass - then flurry away, adding in some trip attempts. Casters hate that.

Laugh at incoming fireballs, dance across the Greased battlefield, leap over the stone walls and blade barriers - even accost the mighty Prismatic Sphere and though slightly singed, you'll still be able to stun the crap out of that pesky abjurer who's just staring at you in awe for penetrating his impenetrable fortress of scintillating color.

Just because your two primary class features are incompatible without some decent homebrew doesn't mean they don't come in handy from time to time. Afterall, even wizards can't hulk out and spellfling at the same time.


Thank goodness I don't play overly optimized games... or care when the party druid does his thing better than my thing with his wicked hydra form... I'm here to have fun, that boy is the monk fun.

[Lateral]

Honestly, I hate the monk. Not because it's weak, really, but more that I don't like the mechanics or the flavor. I enjoy the mechanics of the Unarmed Swordsage more, and its flavor, while similar to the monk's, is much vaguer and isn't inherent in the mechanics- I could make a USS to fit many unarmed combat concepts, and the ones that I can't easily make with a standard USS, I could make easily with a Warblade that has Superior Unarmed Strike.

On the other hand, I love samurai. However, it always seemed to me to be more of an archetype of Fighter or Warblade, rather than needing to be its own class- most of the stuff that the CW Samurai has that's not just Fighter feats locked into suboptimal choices are either codes that I feel should really just be part of RP, or things that could be better replicated in other ways. And, honestly, if you were to cut all fluff from both classes and just look at mechanics, a Warblade represents a Samurai's abilities more than the CW samurai, at least IMO.

[Prime32]

I really like the monk class. I like the fact that PF updated it in just the right ways - and that the ACFs for it they provided are even more better - yes, I just said that.I agree that the ACFs (or "archetypes" as PF calls them) are cool, less so on the monk's overall efficiency. I just wish they made the ki pool regenerate (so you could actually use all those cool powers consistently) and didn't do weird stuff with their BAB.


Fast move up to the badguy and hit him once - it's ok, your dwarf fighter friend just spent a double move, and couldn't even hit him! Wait, why is a guy with average BAB, ability boosts spread across multiple scores and no magic weapon more accurate than a Str-focused full-BAB guy with a magic weapon? :smallconfused: Unless you meant "you can't double move and attack in the same round", in which case why isn't he charging? Plus he can increase his speed with magic boots, which doesn't stack with your speed boost, or just ride a mount.


Next round, flurry away! If the enemy caster starts getting the courage to spellfling, use your dodge + mobility feats to maneuver through the crowd and stun his ass - then flurry away, adding in some trip attempts. Casters hate that.Would work a lot better if you could flurry after moving (a barbarian can). And you can't flurry someone who's cast displacement and mirror image on himself, or is invisible, or flying, or incorporeal. You can't stun someone who's the wrong creature type.


Laugh at incoming fireballs, dance across the Greased battlefield, leap over the stone walls and blade barriers - even accost the mighty Prismatic Sphere and though slightly singed, you'll still be able to stun the crap out of that pesky abjurer who's just staring at you in awe for penetrating his impenetrable fortress of scintillating color.Or he just casts forcecage on you. And you can't pass through a prismatic sphere without destroying it.


Just because your two primary class features are incompatible without some decent homebrew doesn't mean they don't come in handy from time to time. Afterall, even wizards can't hulk out and spellfling at the same time.Yes they can.

[Drelua]

And, honestly, if you were to cut all fluff from both classes and just look at mechanics, a Warblade represents a Samurai's abilities more than the CW samurai, at least IMO.

I don't get how you see it that way. Unless I misread ToB before I got tired of it, most maneuvers can only be used 1/encounter. I'm pretty sure a real samurai could swing his sword a certain way in one fight as many times as he wanted to. To me, the ToB fails in the same area as 4E - realism. There are very few things that can be done 1/day or 1/encounter in 3.5/Pathfinder for combat classes, because in real life, if something works, you can do it again as many times as you like. Sure, the classes are more powerful, but if I want to play a caster, I will. And don't get me started on their Valkyries...

[Prime32]

I don't get how you see it that way. Unless I misread ToB before I got tired of it, most maneuvers can only be used 1/encounter. I'm pretty sure a real samurai could swing his sword a certain way in one fight as many times as he wanted to. To me, the ToB fails in the same area as 4E - realism. There are very few things that can be done 1/day or 1/encounter in 3.5/Pathfinder for combat classes, because in real life, if something works, you can do it again as many times as you like. Sure, the classes are more powerful, but if I want to play a caster, I will. And don't get me started on their Valkyries...They aren't 1/encounter, they refresh. And in a fight trying to spam the same movement over and over will get you killed very quickly. A warblade just needs a swift action to catch his balance and all his maneuvers are usable again. A crusader is just using maneuvers as they come to mind, and gets a constant stream flowing into his head (including ones he already used).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Truth. Like I said, it's just a personal preference born from years of playing Rogue: Rogue needs its niche.

From a game-design standpoint I can find nothing wrong with the class.

His rogue fix is also a swashbuckler fix. D10 hit die, full BAB, and 10+int skill points per level.

Anyway, a warblade or crusader can easily be a samurai. Why do you think they made iron heart, diamond mind, devoted spirit, stone dragon, and white raven? If you want to be an intimidate focused build, sure you can play a samurai, but if you don't want to be a two-weapon fighter who makes enemies afraid, warblade or crusader.

@Drelua: What Prime32 said, plus crusaders never run out of maneuvers.

[Zonugal]

I don't get how you see it that way. Unless I misread ToB before I got tired of it, most maneuvers can only be used 1/encounter. I'm pretty sure a real samurai could swing his sword a certain way in one fight as many times as he wanted to. To me, the ToB fails in the same area as 4E - realism. There are very few things that can be done 1/day or 1/encounter in 3.5/Pathfinder for combat classes, because in real life, if something works, you can do it again as many times as you like. Sure, the classes are more powerful, but if I want to play a caster, I will. And don't get me started on their Valkyries...

I think this might go easier if you describe your idea of a samurai, because I think we all have different conceptions of the Japanese warrior-poet.

For example in my mind they were precision-based warriors who used supreme slices to cut through their opponents in one-mighty swoop.

[Drelua]

They aren't 1/encounter, they refresh. And in a fight trying to spam the same movement over and over will get you killed very quickly. A warblade just needs a swift action to catch his balance and all his maneuvers are usable again. A crusader is just using maneuvers as they come to mind, and gets a constant stream flowing into his head.

My apologies, I never liked ToB, so I'm not very familiar with it. And, just to clarify, I didn't mean repeatedly using the exact same move, I meant re-using it when another opportunity came up, most likely against a different enemy in the same fight. I guess that swift action thing makes some sense. Can the Crusader and Swordsage do that, or just the Warblade?

Edit:
I think this might go easier if you describe your idea of a samurai, because I think we all have different conceptions of the Japanese warrior-poet.

For example in my mind they were precision-based warriors who used supreme slices to cut through their opponents in one-mighty swoop.

Good point. I guess we all think of samurai differently. I picture a samurai with one katana (hated CW's samurai), and I always imagine that a fight would take time, at least one that was the least bit challenging, being quick, patient and alert.

[Prime32]

My apologies, I never liked ToB, so I'm not very familiar with it. And, just to clarify, I didn't mean repeatedly using the exact same move, I meant re-using it when another opportunity came up, most likely against a different enemy in the same fight. I guess that swift action thing makes some sense. Can the Crusader and Swordsage do that, or just the Warblade?Warblade is swift action, crusader is automatic but random, swordsage is a full-round action to recover one maneuver but gets more maneuvers to make up for it (since this is still pretty sucky a lot of DMs give them the Adaptive Style feat for free, which lets you change your readied maneuvers and refresh them as a full-round action). The explanation for that last one is that swordsages fight in a more formal and ritualised way, and thus aren't great at improvising.

[Zonugal]

Good point. I guess we all think of samurai differently. I picture a samurai with one katana (hated CW's samurai), and I always imagine that a fight would take time, at least one that was the least bit challenging, being quick, patient and alert.

The great thing that Tome of Battle offers is versatility in constructing different samurai conceptions (through the different schools of combat). Just going through the schools open to the Warblade (a melee class which places emphasis on strength and intelligence) there are a lot of things available.

Diamond Mind: Focused on using concentration to throw off ill-effects this school is great if you re-flavor some of the reflective abilities to simply be honor protecting the samurai. Enemy poisoned you, my dedication to my lord negates you vile tactic. Ceiling falling towards you, my dedication to my lord offers me the clarity to immediately step out of the way. And with the maneuvers you can have a samurai who is the embodiment of dedication & honor to his lord.

Iron Heart: This is the warrior's school, the school in which one simply punishes his lord's foe & through their death gains the vitality needed to continue on his way. Couples rather nice with Diamond Mind for the samurai who negates almost all effects thrown his way, attacks & even heals through pure honor.

Stone Dragon: Not as powerful as the two schools above there are some key maneuvers that go a long way in emulating the strong & powerful cut of the samurai. Needing to cut down a steel door or land a blow through the Oni's armor, this is the school to dip into.

Tiger Claw: A more unorthodox school this is the crazy, duelist-fueled samurai who is a savage soldier for his lord. Fighting with two blades, spraying his foe's blood up like a fountain and leaping from one enemy to another makes this a school that, with plenty of dedication needed, can make your samurai into something akin to Miyamoto Musashi.

White Raven: The final school and one that is really terrific. Not to many maneuvers that grant a huge bonus to the samurai himself but for the warrior-poet leading troops into battle this is the school for boosting their efforts alongside your own. For a tactical-based samurai commander, this is the way to go.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The great thing that Tome of Battle offers is versatility in constructing different samurai conceptions (through the different schools of combat). Just going through the schools open to the Warblade (a melee class which places emphasis on strength and intelligence) there are a lot of things available.

Diamond Mind: Focused on using concentration to throw off ill-effects this school is great if you re-flavor some of the reflective abilities to simply be honor protecting the samurai. Enemy poisoned you, my dedication to my lord negates you vile tactic. Ceiling falling towards you, my dedication to my lord offers me the clarity to immediately step out of the way. And with the maneuvers you can have a samurai who is the embodiment of dedication & honor to his lord.

Iron Heart: This is the warrior's school, the school in which one simply punishes his lord's foe & through their death gains the vitality needed to continue on his way. Couples rather nice with Diamond Mind for the samurai who negates almost all effects thrown his way, attacks & even heals through pure honor.

Stone Dragon: Not as powerful as the two schools above there are some key maneuvers that go a long way in emulating the strong & powerful cut of the samurai. Needing to cut down a steel door or land a blow through the Oni's armor, this is the school to dip into.

Tiger Claw: A more unorthodox school this is the crazy, duelist-fueled samurai who is a savage soldier for his lord. Fighting with two blades, spraying his foe's blood up like a fountain and leaping from one enemy to another makes this a school that, with plenty of dedication needed, can make your samurai into something akin to Miyamoto Musashi.

White Raven: The final school and one that is really terrific. Not to many maneuvers that grant a huge bonus to the samurai himself but for the warrior-poet leading troops into battle this is the school for boosting their efforts alongside your own. For a tactical-based samurai commander, this is the way to go.

Devoted spirit is also good for samurais. Sort of a combination of white raven and stone dragon.

[Optimator]

I think this might go easier if you describe your idea of a samurai, because I think we all have different conceptions of the Japanese warrior-poet.

For example in my mind they were precision-based warriors who used supreme slices to cut through their opponents in one-mighty swoop.

When I think of Samurai, I think of Power Attack and draw cuts. KIAI!!

I also think of horseback archery and spears and level 3 aristocrats.

[Prime32]

Another summary of the schools:

Desert Wind (Swordsage): A school focused on speed and creating distractions. Also contains some supernatural maneuvers which manipulate fire in unusual ways, like using fire to extend your reach or setting an area on fire by running around it.
Devoted Spirit (Crusader): The paladin school. Contains effects related to fighting opposed alignments and healing allies. Also contains some maneuvers involving shield use.
Diamond Mind (Swordsage/Warblade): A school focused on finding weak points in your opponent's defences. Contains maneuvers which let you make attacks as touch attacks, avoid enemy attacks and screw with their minds.
Iron Heart (Warblade): The "simplest" school, based on willpower and effort. Contains maneuvers which let you strike multiple opponents, deal extra damage or throw off negative effects.
Setting Sun (Swordsage): A school based on repositioning yourself and others. Throw your enemies, or lure them into false openings which let you get behind them.
Shadow Hand (Swordsage): Sneaky sneaky. Maneuvers for stealth, surprise attacks and manipulating shadows. Also has the ludicrously named Five Shadows Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, aka the Poke of Doom.
Stone Dragon (All): You are a wall of iron with a hammer of adamantine. Penetrating DR/hardness, enduring damage, staying rooted to one spot and slowing enemies by shattering their bones.
Tiger Claw (Swordsage/Warblade): BLOOOOOD! Bounce around the battlefield like a madman, wielding as many weapons as you can hold or just ripping enemies apart with your bare hands. Some maneuvers grant things like scent and fear effects.
White Raven (Crusader/Warblade): The school of tacticians. Grant your allies extra actions or prevent enemies from targeting them. Also has some maneuvers related to charging.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Wait, why is a guy with average BAB, ability boosts spread across multiple scores and no magic weapon more accurate than a Str-focused full-BAB guy with a magic weapon? :smallconfused: Unless you meant "you can't double move and attack in the same round", in which case why isn't he charging? Plus he can increase his speed with magic boots, which doesn't stack with your speed boost, or just ride a mount.


i think he is meaning they can move further than the dwarf fighter, and can reach the opponent about a round before the fighter.

[agahii]

Use this Samurai

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Class#Base_Classes

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thanks! I wish there was a multi-quote feature.

This game probably won't run very high. We're starting at 2 (and the only reason we're not starting at 1 is because my wife is going Goliath Pally).

And yeah... I could go something else with the Samurai flavor, but I seriously do like the class. Yeah I realize it's pretty terrible, but I still want to make something out of it. I think my mid-op Samurai will do well with everyone else's low-op chars.

Now I just need to think of a race. Probably straight Samurai, so the build isn't an issue, unless there's some dip that'd really help out my intimidate.

While the original build was straight samurai, you may wish to consider Exemplar. It lets you Take 10 on your Intimidate checks. I don't think I need to explain any further how massively helpful this is for you.

Start off with Rogue1, because once you leave being Samurai, you can't go back. So take the rogue dip, with Able Learner, so that you can keep your skills up to qualify for Exemplar. Then Samurai10, because you need that for Mass Staredown. If you want, you can even go Samurai14 for Improved Mass Staredown, but after you are done with Samurai, I highly suggest a one-level dip in Exemplar. It makes those intimidate checks much easier.

From there, probably Ronin would be your best bet.

[ffone]

So the other day I was making a Kobold Monk for my wife to fight against (we're doing a 2-person campaign). I've never made a Monk before, and honestly I kind of liked him. Especially I was looking into the Kobold PrC Monk (forget the name... Disciple of the Eye?). Besides that, Monks get a bunch of cool abilities. Stunning fist at such a low level! That's cool.

And I also like the Samurai found in Complete Warrior. He may not be optimal (and honestly that Dwarf looks really stupid) but ahh... a freakin' Samurai. In fact, I was going to play a Warblade in the upcoming campaign and I'm going to switch to Samurai.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or something, just stating that I see the Monk and Samurai not getting much love around here. I personally like the two classes.

How dare you just have fun! You should only be having fun if you optimize!

[danzibr]

How dare you just have fun! You should only be having fun if you optimize!
Ha, yeah. I'll probably do something like Shneeky's Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), except without the levels of rogue and maybe not human. A Hellbred Samurai going for intimidate would be really flavorful.

[Psyren]

I'm not trying to start a flame war or something, just stating that I see the Monk and Samurai not getting much love around here. I personally like the two classes.

Your personal preference is fine; where you've lost me is being surprised that so many of us don't share it.

In other words, they "don't get much love around here" for very good reasons.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ha, yeah. I'll probably do something like Shneeky's Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), except without the levels of rogue and maybe not human. A Hellbred Samurai going for intimidate would be really flavorful.

Rogue is necessary to qualify for Exemplar, which significantly adds to the power of the build.

[Zonugal]

Rogue is necessary to qualify for Exemplar, which significantly adds to the power of the build.

I'm a little unfamiliar with the build but if you can snag Iron Will (possibly through the Otyguh Hole) you can pick up Hardened Criminal which allows one to take 10 on any one skill (so Intimidate) and also grants immunity to being intimidated.

[Jude_H]

I'm curious - why Rogue over Marshal?

edit: I'll take this to the other thread.

[danzibr]

where you've lost me is being surprised that so many of us don't share it.
From a mechanical PoV I understand that it sucks. I'm just saying I still like it.

[TOZ]

This place always delivers for me. Monk threads, Paladin threads, ToB threads. It's like my birthday every week.

[Draz74]

OP: You seem to know what you're doing, so ... go for it. Enjoy these classes if you understand these issues and they're still what you want to play.

That said, shameless self-plug time ...


If you're going to play a Monk, play this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)

No, try this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11041902&postcount=2). :smallwink:

[TroubleBrewing]

No, try this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11041902&postcount=2). :smallwink:

I like that one A LOT. I haven't bothered with reading many homebrew Monk fixes (I like Unarmed Swordsage and PsyWar just fine), but this one is really cool. It preserves the Monk-ness from the PHB, but vastly improves its combat viability.

[NineThePuma]

I have a player who ran it for I think 6 levels, before grabbing a level or two of Monk and plunging headfirst into Drunken Master.

The Drunken Samurai!

We introduced his character (he joined two sessions in) by showing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvE6CZNxJpI) video...and then explaining that he wakes up from a drunken stupor and learning that all of that was a alcohol-induced hallucination.

(incidentally, the guy at the end of the video says something to the effect of "You know what? I really love this sword!" I don't know what that movie is about, but I choose to believe that it's about a samurai who snaps and just starts killing Sir Francis Drake and ninjas with six-shooters while random people toss him swords, from offscreen)

The character spent literally the entire campaign in a drunken stupor, approaching sobriety only once when meeting the Emperor herself. He had a horse - a normal horse - who was a wiser and possibly more intelligent being than him, and with heward's handy saddlebags that he kept full of sake. He had drank himself into amnesia and couldn't remember anything before meeting the rest of the group.

For bonus points at the end of the campaign, having finally drank all the sake he had, he found a letter from his daimyo revealing that he was a member of the Shishi (Lion) Clan and that he was supposed to meet up with the PCs anyway and help them on theri journey.

Best. Character. Ever.

That video. Just... That video.

Amazing.

Also, love the character story.

[Psyren]

No, try this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11041902&postcount=2). :smallwink:

I like it. I think being able to "take 15" on a will save (especially repeatedly) is a bit strong though.

[NineThePuma]

If you're going to play a Monk, play this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)


No, try this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11041902&postcount=2). :smallwink:

You're both wrong. This is where it's at. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346)

I'm mostly being playful and positing my favorite Monk. But, T.G. also did an amazing Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143018), if you care to look at all.

[Curious]

As long as we're suggesting monk fixes, I quite enjoy this one:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193791

Also, could you please explain to me how you combine a link with words like that?

EDIT: Like so? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193791)

[NineThePuma]

[url=link)text(/url]

With parenthesis replaced with brackets.

[Curious]

Ah! Thank you very much!

[NineThePuma]

No prob. It's always nice to pass my knowledge on.

[Draz74]

Thanks for the commentary folks.


I like it. I think being able to "take 15" on a will save (especially repeatedly) is a bit strong though.

Hmmm, you may be right. What about Take 10? Or feel free to suggest something else. I just wanted to make sure the Monk cares about being able to hold a psionic focus, without caring about the Concentration skill.

[Psyren]

Thanks for the commentary folks.



Hmmm, you may be right. What about Take 10? Or feel free to suggest something else. I just wanted to make sure the Monk cares about being able to hold a psionic focus, without caring about the Concentration skill.

Put it on another skill, not their saves (which are already high enough without being able to invalidate natural 1s.) Autohypnosis maybe, or Balance, Jump, or Tumble.

Since skills don't fail on a natural one to begin with, being able to skip rolling is not as big a boost.

[TheSweetieMan]

I have never played a samurai, but recently for a series of upcoming battles my friend and I have developed several samurai ogre bastards. There is an Oni ogre mage (From Pathfinder), who is more or less the infernal shogun of the mountain pass and wields an array of spells and a scythe. His two generals are both ogres. There is Wasabi, a gestalt samurai/fighter and Yam-Yam, a samurai/scout. Oh, and Yam-Yam's half-orc, half-ogre proof of a most likely non-consensual beast orgy, the marvelous Soy Boy, who somehow wound up with 2 charisma, and became a samurai/barbarian, searching for his father's love and affection.