Is a Warblade something that can shine...

[SillyBee]

When there is a Ranger/Druid/Master of Many Forms in the group? From what I understand, what the MoMF will do is go some Troll-hybrid that nets him Fast Healing and immunity to most attacks. Can a Warblade(talking 20th level here) make his own mark in an adventuring group with that kind of a powerhouse already there? I have little experience with the ToB, so I honestly don't know and am trying to make a character that will have his own niche.

[Flickerdart]

Master of Many Forms is outright worse than pure Druid, and Ranger in the mix makes things even more muddled for that build. I'd say a Warblade would have no problem contributing.
Even if the MoMF gains Troll regeneration, there's Trollbane poison that goes right through it, plus a host of other tricks. So it's not that big a deal. As for fast healing, everyone should have some method of topping up between battles anyway.

[Fouredged Sword]

Warblade at level 20 has save of die effects due to the last tiger claw strike. It is literaly a bypass damage save or you die effect. Otherwise grab some troll bane and use the final strike from iron heart to do an extra 250 damage with one hit, all bypassing regeneration. If that fails just hit him repetedly with the final stone dragon strike for 2d6 con damage per hit. Even regeneration can't cope with running out of con.

You will lack his endurence and survivability, but picking your mannuvers will make you capable of compareable strength.

Take Use Psionic Item cross class to allow you to pick up some crystals of Psionic Reformation if you need to completely repick manuvers known.

[Feytalist]

I don't know that MoMF is "outright" worse than straight Druid on a Wildshape focused build like that one obviously is. MoMF has some nice tricks.

Regardless, warblade will be able to keep up with a wildshaper without much trouble. Depending on your choice of maneuvres obviously. I think go for it.

[Essence_of_War]

Yes, you can.

Check out the Warblade Handbook in my sig to get some good ideas about feats, maneuvers, weapons, dips, etc!

General Advice:
You have access to 5 disciplines but not enough maneuvers known to take advantage of all 5. Pick 2 disciplines to focus on, and take 1 more that you can splash a couple of maneuvers into to get some advantages.

A common choice is to use Iron Heart and Diamond Mind as primaries, and splash just enough into White Raven to get White Raven Tactics.

[Talya]

I don't know that MoMF is "outright" worse than straight Druid on a Wildshape focused build like that one obviously is. MoMF has some nice tricks.


Druid has three class features that are each as powerful as an individual character.

Spellcasting alone: Tier 1.
Wildshape: Tier 3 (This is where Warblade lies).
Animal Companion: Tier 4-5 (depending on level and how far you optimize it. I'm sure there's a trick or two to get it up to tier 3, but, it'd still be a low tier 3.)

Master of Many Forms utterly castrates Spellcasting and Animal Companion. So yes, while it does improve a druid's wildshaping ability, it's a serious performance drop for the druid. In this case, this is a good thing, it puts the druid on par with his Warblade party member. They should each contribute well.

[SillyBee]

Hmm.

There are only 3 builds suggested in the guide, does anyone have recommendations for different kinds of builds?

Spiked Chain is interesting, as is an uber-charger build. Any help is much appreciated.

[subject42]

You have access to 5 disciplines but not enough maneuvers known to take advantage of all 5. Pick 2 disciplines to focus on, and take 1 more that you can splash a couple of maneuvers into to get some advantages.

A common choice is to use Iron Heart and Diamond Mind as primaries, and splash just enough into White Raven to get White Raven Tactics.

Don't forget to cherry-pick good maneuvers that don't have prerequisites. Mountain Tombstone Strike is the canonical example of that.

[Gnaeus]

Druid has three class features that are each as powerful as an individual character.

Spellcasting alone: Tier 1.
Wildshape: Tier 3 (This is where Warblade lies).
Animal Companion: Tier 4-5 (depending on level and how far you optimize it. I'm sure there's a trick or two to get it up to tier 3, but, it'd still be a low tier 3.)

Master of Many Forms utterly castrates Spellcasting and Animal Companion. So yes, while it does improve a druid's wildshaping ability, it's a serious performance drop for the druid. In this case, this is a good thing, it puts the druid on par with his Warblade party member. They should each contribute well.

Talya is correct, but to put it another way...
Shapechange, by itself, is better than the entire MoMF class. The druid you mention probably cannot Shapechange.

[Roland St. Jude]

Warblade at level 20 has save of die effects due to the last tiger claw strike. It is literaly a bypass damage save or you die effect. Otherwise grab some troll bane and use the final strike from iron heart to do an extra 250 damage with one hit, all bypassing regeneration. If that fails just hit him repetedly with the final stone dragon strike for 2d6 con damage per hit. Even regeneration can't cope with running out of con....Why is her Warblade trying to kill a party member? :smallconfused:

[sonofzeal]

Hmm.

There are only 3 builds suggested in the guide, does anyone have recommendations for different kinds of builds?

Spiked Chain is interesting, as is an uber-charger build. Any help is much appreciated.
Don't stress it.

ToB is very hard to screw up. There's a relatively narrow optimization band; on a 10-point scale, a newbie-built Warblade might be a 6 while a pro-built Warblade might be an 8. Because of how your maneuvers work, it generally doesn't matter as much what weapon you're using. Sword-and-board becomes viable because AC is always nice and you're not depending on two-hand bonus and Power Attack for your damage anymore. Even TWF with daggers can be effective with Raging Mongoos and other options.

In general though, I'd build it like you would a Fighter, and use your Maneuvers more as situational trump cards to augment your Fighterness. Almost any Fighter build can be shoehorned into Warblade, and will almost invariably be improved in the process.

[TroubleBrewing]

Why is her Warblade trying to kill a party member? :smallconfused:

Well, because during that initial "everyone introduce yourselves" moment, there's always that one guy who has to make trouble and turn it into a "look what I can do better than you"-style pissing contest. :smallannoyed:

The Warblade doesn't have to be that guy. But if the MoMF is, the Warblade can shut him up real quick. :smalltongue:

[Essence_of_War]

If you just want some AoO/spiked chain control:
Here's one that I like:

Goliath
Cleric1/Fighter1/Warblade X

1 - Power Attack
C1 - Travel Devotion
C1 - Earth Devotion
F1 - Exotic Weapon Prof - Spiked Chain
3 - CExp
6 - Imp Trip
7(WB5) - Combat Reflexes
9 - Knockdown
11(WB9) - Improved Initiative
12 - Knockback
15(WB13) - Stone Power
15 - Robilar's Gambit
18 - Imp Unarmed Strike?
19(WB17) - Quick Draw?
This obviously gets much better if you can take a flaw or two to get the whole combo online faster. It has the advantage of tripping + bull rushing enemies, and since the trips/bull rushes trigger automatically off of hits for damage, you can freely use all of your cool warblade strikes during your turn to get the battlefield control effects, and then get some fun AoO control stuff on your enemies turn!

If you just want to charge:
Goliath
Cleric 1/Fighter2/Warblade4/ExoticWeaponMaster1/Warblade5-16
1 - Power Attack
C1 - Travel Devotion
C1 - Earth Devotion
F1 - Exotic Weapon Prof - Bastard Sword
F2 - Improved Bull Rush
3 - Improved Sunder
6 - Leap Attack
7 - Take Uncanny Blow option with EWM and use your bastard sword in two hands.
9(WB5) - Improved Initiative
9 - Shock Trooper
12 - Combat Brute
13(WB9) - Ironheart Aura
15 - Stromguard Warrior
17(WB13) - ?
18 - ?

Just be aware that charing damage can get out of control quickly...especially if you're using synergistic White Raven maneuvers and the like.

I'm sure I'll be ninja'd swordsage'd by a dozen other better builds, but hope you find these helpful :smallsmile:

[SillyBee]

Well, because during that initial "everyone introduce yourselves" moment, there's always that one guy who has to make trouble and turn it into a "look what I can do better than you"-style pissing contest. :smallannoyed:

The Warblade doesn't have to be that guy. But if the MoMF is, the Warblade can shut him up real quick. :smalltongue:

Its not far off the bat. The MoMF is a character that this player has flaunted for years about how he is 'immune' to damage. Now apparently he has changed his build a bit, going Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Crimson Scourge 8. He shapes into Wartroll, gets an acid immunity item and is good to go. Toss in a spiked chain and he goes battlefield control with reach that will be better than mine.

So, there is a teensy part of me that does want to show him up for a moment. If only a moment. Not to the point of "Hey I can kill you!" necessarily(although it does make me giggle with murderous glee on the inside) but more to say I have a pretty decent thing mechanically, myself(never a strong point for me).

Regardless these are some great ideas, feel free to add on!

[subject42]

Its not far off the bat. The MoMF is a character that this player has flaunted for years about how he is 'immune' to damage.

He may be "immune" to damage, but he's not immune to the following list that I can think of off the top of my head. Anybody else know anything I'm missing? I'm mostly thinking of what a non-magical ToB character could pull off.


Ludicrous amounts of nonlethal damage, to the point that he starves to death before he regenerates.
Straight-up save or die effects (FERAL DEATH BLOW)
Suffocation
Drowning (Try to get a Setting Sun Maneuver like BALLISTA THROW on your list and chuck him off a cliff)
Constitution Damage (MOUNTAIN TOMBSTONE STRIKE)

[Gnaeus]

Its not far off the bat. The MoMF is a character that this player has flaunted for years about how he is 'immune' to damage. Now apparently he has changed his build a bit, going Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Crimson Scourge 8. He shapes into Wartroll, gets an acid immunity item and is good to go. Toss in a spiked chain and he goes battlefield control with reach that will be better than mine.

So, there is a teensy part of me that does want to show him up for a moment. If only a moment. Not to the point of "Hey I can kill you!" necessarily(although it does make me giggle with murderous glee on the inside) but more to say I have a pretty decent thing mechanically, myself(never a strong point for me).

Regardless these are some great ideas, feel free to add on!

You know, getting to large size isn't really very hard. Enlarge person + permanency + a reach weapon is pretty easy (and a ring of counterspells). You can match his reach if you want. With 9th level maneuvers and full BAB, I bet you can beat his damage by a fair bit. Being immune to damage, at level 20, isn't that great. You probably have more hp than he has, he only heals a few hp per round, and only one of you can shout "By Crom!" and shrug off hostile spells.

[Essence_of_War]

For the tripping build I posted, this might work even better:

Goliath (if you want extra calcium in your diet, be a half-minotaur and buy off both pts of LA)
Wolf-totem BBN2/Fighter2/Warblade16
1 - Exotic Weapon Prof - Spiked Chain
BBN2 - Improved Trip
3 - Knockdown
3(F1) - Power Attack
4(F2) - Improved Bullrush
6 - Knockback
9 -
9(WB5) - Combat Reflexes
12 - Robilar's Gambit
13(WB9) - Imp. Initiative

Gets the tripping fun online even faster and doesn't require that you have the int 13+ requirement of Combat Expertise. Essentially, those first 4 levels give you 4 bonus feats!

[SillyBee]

Okay, so I seem to be moving towards Dwarven Warblade 20

So far I've got:

1 Power Attack
3 Improved Bull Rush
WB5 Improved Initiative
6 Improved Sunder
9 Leap Attack
WB9 Combat Reflexes
12 Shock Trooper
WB13 Quick Draw
15 Combat Brute
WB17 Stone Power
18 Stormguard Warrior

So far for maneuvers I'm settling on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and a dabble in Stone Dragon(fits with the idea of a dwarf, I think).

For Diamond Mind:
Time Stands Still
Diamond Nightmare Blade
Diamond Defense
Rapid Counter
Moment of Perfect Mind

For Iron Heart:
Wall of Blades
Iron Heart Surge
Lightning Recovery
Adamantine Hurricane
Strike of Perfect Clarity

For Stone Dragon:
Charging Minotaur
Mountain Hammer
Mountain Tombstone Strike

Stances:
Leading the Charge
Stance of Clarity
Punishing Stance
Pearl of Black Doubt
Stance of Alacrity


Please feel free to pick it apart and make suggestions. I'm sticking to PHB Races, and I'd like to stay Warblade 20. However if you think an alternate class build would be useful, feel free to suggest.

Above all thank you for the help.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You're playing a charger with a base speed of 20 feet? Either switch to human or take the Quick trait (+10 feet to speed, -1 hit point/level). Also, get martial stance (step of the wind) to deal with difficult terrain.

Oh, and you need ironheart aura to take storm guard warrior.

[SillyBee]

Aaand that's why I need you guys. :smallbiggrin:

Hmm. Maybe...not dwarf then.

K. Human then. Extra feat will net me Iron Aura

1 Power Attack
H Improved Bull Rush
3 Improved Sunder
WB5 Improved Initiative
6 Leap Attack
9 Shock Trooper
WB9 Combat Reflexes
12 Combat Brute
WB13 Quick Draw
15 Iron Aura
WB17 Stone Power
18 Stormguard Warrior

Don't think I'll need the difficult terrain advantage. It would be situational, and if I run into that, I'll just deal.

[Leon]

Anything can shine, given a bit of polish and a chance to be in the light

[LordBlades]

If you're going charger, I'd suggest a 1 level dip of Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem barbarian, for Pounce and 1 extra attack.

[HunterOfJello]

Warblades are freaking awesome. A warblade is highly unlikely to get completely outshone by any other character in a party. It is possible, but definitely unlikely.

Warblades get access to lots of maneuvers and options for their character that the core classes never get access to. They get access to great melee abilities that they can refresh easily and very often while in the middle of a battle. Their recovery mechanic works so easily that my players end up doing it in the middle of a fight because they were going to take a full-attack action that round and didn't have a swift action they wanted to take anyway (i.e. they accomplish it with 0 oppurtunity cost).

Warblades are highly efficient in doing melee damage, taking hits, and dealing out punishment to others. They are the true Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian combo that the game was meant to have. They also get access to the Iron Heart discipline which has some of the best abilities in the game. They can reroll any attack they missed at get a +2 bonus on it as a swift action, remove one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting them with a duration of 1 or more rounds as a standard action, and at higher levels they can reroll any save as a swift action. They can use these abilities as often as they recover their maneuvers and as a mentioned before, they recover them often in a fight and can them use them all up again as they like.

Warblades dish out the pain by using the Mountain Hammer line of maneuvers (they get access to the first maneuver at level 3) which deal extra damage and ignore all damage resistance and hardness. They also have the option of fighting with two weapons as the same time and get some great options that way in the Tiger Claw discipline. They can also do great leading other melee characters into battle with the White Raven discipline which would only make the wildshaping druid even deadlier.

Warblades are great on their own, great with spellcasting friends, and even great among melee allies. They're awesome and are pretty much always a great addition to a party.

~


Also, just using the 2nd level maneuvers Emerald Razor and Mountain Hammer, the warblade should be able to hold his own next to an equally leveled wildshape druid. Emerald Razor + Power Attack with a 2handed weapon allows the character to make a full power attack as a touch attack. Most monsters don't have a touch AC much higher than 10, so that combo is highly likely to hit and will be doing a heck of a lot of damage. With mountain hammer the warblade ignores all DR with his attacks and will be able to bypass all that resistance that the driud will have to be constantly dealing with. Since the druid is unlikely to put all different types of metal claw bracers on himself for each type of enemy he's attacking and generally more likely to be doing multiple attacks for small amounts of damage compared to a Warblades small number of attacks for larger amounts of damage, the druid will be barely bypassing a strong enemies DR while the Warblade can completely ignore it every other round (or more often than that).


/end warblade love rant

[DeAnno]

He may be "immune" to damage, but he's not immune to the following list that I can think of off the top of my head. Anybody else know anything I'm missing? I'm mostly thinking of what a non-magical ToB character could pull off.


One that's often forgotten but that became a major theme in a campaign I played in:



A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.


Regeneration, Delay Death, other random combos, none of it will save you if Disintegrate cracks your Touch AC and SR and you're under zero. You need to either have Mettle to negate on the Fortitude save (sort of hard to get, there's Tabard of Valor in Complete Champion I think but lol it's Complete Champion), godly touch AC or SR, or be a Tarrasque.

EDIT: A real pro spellcaster could target your Tabard of Valor with Greater Dispel and suppress it if they see you Mettling, so if it isn't built into you're build it isn't as good.

[Eldariel]

EDIT: A real pro spellcaster could target your Tabard of Valor with Greater Dispel and suppress it if they see you Mettling, so if it isn't built into you're build it isn't as good.

No, an average caster will Chain Dispel all your items + you for good measure with one action, and then end you. Or shape you into an AMF and Orb you (Wildshape is a supernatural ability and all that). And that's all elementary-level magic, still.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Regeneration, Delay Death, other random combos, none of it will save you if Disintegrate cracks your Touch AC and SR and you're under zero. You need to either have Mettle to negate on the Fortitude save (sort of hard to get, there's Tabard of Valor in Complete Champion I think but lol it's Complete Champion), godly touch AC or SR, or be a Tarrasque.

EDIT: A real pro spellcaster could target your Tabard of Valor with Greater Dispel and suppress it if they see you Mettling, so if it isn't built into you're build it isn't as good.

Just dip three levels of hexblade. Mettle, arcane resistance, good will save, lots of benefits and you only lose two initiator levels. Go one level of the spirit lion barbarian to give you the same IL plus pounce and rage (or whirling frenzy).

[DeAnno]

No, an average caster will Chain Dispel all your items + you for good measure with one action, and then end you. Or shape you into an AMF and Orb you (Wildshape is a supernatural ability and all that). And that's all elementary-level magic, still.



Each creature struck by the spell is affected as if by a targeted dispel magic




One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.


Dispel targeted against a creature only checks against their "ongoing spells", it does not get a check to suppress magic items. If you have a houserule that lets it fine, but by RAW you can't suppress a Tabard of Valor that way.

[Eldariel]

Dispel targeted against a creature only checks against their "ongoing spells", it does not get a check to suppress magic items. If you have a houserule that lets it fine, but by RAW you can't suppress a Tabard of Valor that way.

What do you think I meant by "Chain Dispel Magic"? You apply Chain Spell-metamagic unto Greater Dispel Magic and hit all the up-to-CL separate targets you want. Obviously you use targeted Dispel when Chaining.

[DeAnno]

I thought you meant the PHBII spell that was called... "Chain Dispel". Chain Dispel Magic would be effective, but at that point you need a feat investment and a 9th level spell slot to do it (or more built investment to cheapen chaining and a lower spell slot, or a 6th level spell slot but with the cap on normal Dispel Magic dispel checks on a lot of stuff will be pretty shaky).

[Eldariel]

I thought you meant the PHBII spell that was called... "Chain Dispel". Chain Dispel Magic would be effective, but at that point you need a feat investment and a 9th level spell slot to do it (or more built investment to cheapen chaining and a lower spell slot, or a 6th level spell slot but with the cap on normal Dispel Magic dispel checks on a lot of stuff will be pretty shaky).

Or a normal Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell :smallwink:

[DeAnno]

Or a normal Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell :smallwink:

Good point, that's a pretty efficient use of money in terms of cost: effect ratio, chain rodded GDM will absolutely ruin a lot of PC builds you might wander into.

But anyways sorry for the thread derailment, in the end the important bit is if you're relying on Mettle to stop Disintegrate killing you dead, you'd best actually get Mettle somehow.

[Leon]

Where is that metamagic rod from?

[Philistine]

Aaand that's why I need you guys. :smallbiggrin:

Hmm. Maybe...not dwarf then.

K. Human then. Extra feat will net me Iron Aura

1 Power Attack
H Improved Bull Rush
3 Improved Sunder
WB5 Improved Initiative
6 Leap Attack
9 Shock Trooper
WB9 Combat Reflexes
12 Combat Brute
WB13 Quick Draw
15 Iron Aura
WB17 Stone Power
18 Stormguard Warrior

Don't think I'll need the difficult terrain advantage. It would be situational, and if I run into that, I'll just deal.


If you're going charger, I'd suggest a 1 level dip of Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem barbarian, for Pounce and 1 extra attack.
If you're going to dip Barbarian, you might as well make it a 2-level dip and grab Improved Trip (Wolf Totem ACF) for free as well.

- OR -

You might want to look more closely at the White Raven school. In addition to a line of Charge-centric maneuvers, there are a lot of options to mess with enemies and/or boost allies. That seems like it would be "more different" from the MoMF, if you're looking to carve out a unique niche with this character.

[Cerlis]

way i see it you could sunder his spiked chain with one Stone dragon maneuver then its you using counters and stances to negate his melee attacks while you beat him over the head. you dont need to kill him to beat him, but with the power of Offensive maneuvers you could still knock him down i'd think.

but of course the question is pve, not pvp. and so what if he has battlefield control, your the one going around and slicing everything to ribbons.

[Eldariel]

Where is that metamagic rod from?

Magic Item Compendium.

[Leon]

Magic Item Compendium.

Thank you. Didn't like the feat but a rod version will be useful for Buffing.

[brujon]

Hmm.

There are only 3 builds suggested in the guide, does anyone have recommendations for different kinds of builds?

Spiked Chain is interesting, as is an uber-charger build. Any help is much appreciated.

Get 1 level of Lion Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion pg 56), it gives you pounce as an ACF. Go TWF, and focus on Tiger Claw maneuvers. Especially Raging Mongoose/etc... Max your ranks in Jump and use the stance that let's you jump as a swift action. With Pounce, you can now full-attack at the end of a charge. As you can jump as a swift action, you can use that jump to initiate a charge as a swift action, full attack, use a movement action to full attack again, use a belt (It's on the Item Compendium), to give you another swift action, charge again, then finally charge yet another time with your remaining standard action. So, you full attack 4 times. Or, you can use the first swift action to activate Raging Mongoose, and double the number of attacks you can make with the remaining 3 charges you can make, effectively making 6 full attacks on a single turn. Dual-Wielding kukris and utilizing Blood on the Water, especializing in critical enhancing feats is also another valid option(Worse, because a lot of things are immune to criticals).

Of course this depends on an interpretation of how charging works. It says you need to be able to move at least 10ft in order to initiate a charge, and normally, this can only be made as a full-round, standard, or movement action. Being able to move by jumping as a swift action (at least 10ft), can be interpreted as fulfilling the requirement to initiate a charge. To be able to move 10ft vertically on a jump is a moderately difficult check, at 36 DC. With items, though, it can be made trivial. It's necessary, though, because after the first jump, you are now standing next to your enemy, and need to move 10ft in one direction in order to initiate the charge. 10ft up and on the way down, lay waste. This is a personal variation of mine on the ubercharger. Plus, if you use claws, you can look like WOLVERINE!!!

EDIT: I should be able to cook up a level 20 version of this later, just to show that his DPS is on-par with that of a 2-handed Ubercharger...

[Raendyn]

Even IF you can say that jumping 10 feet is qualifies for the charge 10 feet distance, Charge is still a Full round action..

So,
How do you get a full-round action ( charge ) just because you jumped?(doesn't matter if that was swift)

[Talya]

Even IF you can say that jumping 10 feet is qualifies for the charge 10 feet distance, Charge is still a Full round action..

So,
How do you get a full-round action ( charge ) just because you jumped?(doesn't matter if that was swift)

Full round actions don't use up your swift action. I don't think one can include Sudden Leap as your movement in a charge, but you can certainly take a full attack action after you use it.

(You could use sudden leap first, and then charge after, allowing an extra long charge and/or a change in direction, but it wouldn't be the movement as part of your charge. Charge is a self contained action. I believe the previous poster is using Sudden leap to move 10' away so they have room to charge.)

[Raendyn]

I believe the previous poster is using Sudden leap to move 10' away so they have room to charge.)

there are many way to get 10feet distance. I asked how he gets to charge by jumping. He go himself a full-round action because he jumped.

[danzibr]

Hmm it looks like nobody said this...

I made a Warblade 20 that can do over 1000 damage without any gear (other than a regular weapon). Throw in gear and buffs and he could do over 2000.

[Raendyn]

Hmm it looks like nobody said this...

I made a Warblade 20 that can do over 1000 damage without any gear (other than a regular weapon). Throw in gear and buffs and he could do over 2000.

Care to share him with us?
I have never used ToB before as most of my DM's ban it for some reason( yeah yeah i know, dont start...).

But now i will have a chance to use ToB & I feel like looking for good builds.

[Redshirt Army]

Hmm it looks like nobody said this...

I made a Warblade 20 that can do over 1000 damage without any gear (other than a regular weapon). Throw in gear and buffs and he could do over 2000.

Past a point, sheer damage doesn't matter anymore - As I understand, though damage is of course nice, OP is asking more for what contributions he can bring to a party to be competitive with a Druid/MoMF. That said, damage is one of the most basic ways of optimizing melee characters, so please share your build.

Personally, I'd recommend, as was mentioned earlier, taking a closer look at White Raven to carve out your own niche - White Raven Tactics is nice, and no-one will look down on a character that can get them an extra turn as a swift action.

[byaku rai]

If you intend to go straight Warblade20, which it seems you do (I approve btw, it's my favorite non-homebrewed class) there is a Warblade Handbook in the sig of one of the people who posted earlier (they drew attention to it in their post). It's awesome. Looking at the build you posted yourself earlier, you seem to be good.

As for dealing with the MoMF, you should easily be able to outshine him with a couple of Level 9 Maneuvers, as well as a couple of others if you feel like it. Using the Iron Heart capstone alone, you can deal an extra 100 damage per attack if you feel like using a swift action to recover. Diamond Mind, you can combine Time Stands Still with (whichever Nightmare Blade gives you all touch attacks) to get two full attack actions with all touch attacks. With properly optimized weapons, that's just death by another name.

I am a bit leery of the MoMF's build... yes, he's immune to most kinds of damage (if the DM doesn't feel like banning the troll stuff outright), but when he ticks God off enough there's gonna be someone who "just happens to have" Trollbane poison or some other way of bypassing that immunity. Plus his AoO build, and tripping, are both negated by a high enough Tumble (DC 15 to lol at the puny attempts to AoO, DC 30 i think to stand from prone as a free action without provoking AoOs). If it comes to it, you have Tumble as a class skill, and one item well within your WBL lets you make those checks without rolling.

Plus the guy missed out on going straight Druid awesomeness for a somewhat sub-par PrC. Druid is one of my favorite classes for purely fluff reasons, even beyond their crunchy awesomeness, and willfully castrating that for such a small benefit is nigh unforgiveable. :smallmad:

EDIT: it was Essence of War who has the handbook in their sig. Sorry, couldn't remember the name. x.x

[brujon]

Full round actions don't use up your swift action. I don't think one can include Sudden Leap as your movement in a charge, but you can certainly take a full attack action after you use it.

(You could use sudden leap first, and then charge after, allowing an extra long charge and/or a change in direction, but it wouldn't be the movement as part of your charge. Charge is a self contained action. I believe the previous poster is using Sudden leap to move 10' away so they have room to charge.)

I just started a thread that expands in depth how exactly you can do what i said you can, complete with a level 20 build, items, feats, maneuvers etc...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11441208#post11441208

The key is using Battle Jump from Unapproachable East to make it so that ANY 10ft vertical jump automatically qualifies you for a charge.

[danzibr]

Care to share him with us?
I have never used ToB before as most of my DM's ban it for some reason( yeah yeah i know, dont start...).

But now i will have a chance to use ToB & I feel like looking for good builds.
Sure. This build uses Hellbred, but Dragonborn Water Orc is far superior mechanically.

Grits, Hellbred Warblade 20
Stats:
Str 16 = 8 + 8 (10 pts)
Dex 14 = 8 + 6 (6 pts)
Con 16 = 8 + 6 + 2 (6 pts)
Int 14 = 8 + 8 - 2 (10 pts)
Wis 8 = 8 + 0 (0 pts)
Cha 8 = 8 + 0 (0 pts)

Feats:
Improved Sunder (lvl 1)
Power Attack (flaw, Shaky)
Improved Bull Rush (flaw, Weak Will)
Mage Slayer (lvl 3)
Improved Initiative (lvl 5)
Shock Trooper (lvl 6)
Blind-Fight (lvl 9)
Leap Attack (lvl 9)
Combat Brute (lvl 12)
Quick Draw (lvl 13)
Pierce Magical Concealment (lvl 15)
Some crap Warblade bonus feat (lvl 17)
Pierce magical Protection (lvl 18)

Skills (4+int):
jump
tumble
intimidate
concentrate
balance
Twisted Charge (Balance 5, Tumble 5)
Back on Your Feet (Tumble 12)
Extreme Leap (Jump 5)
Nimble Charge (Balance 5)
Nimble Stand (Tumble 8)
1: 4 in jump, tumble, intimidate, concentrate, balance, 2 in spellcraft
2: 5 in balance, tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Twisted Charge
3: 6 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, 3 in Knowledge (History)
4: 7 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, 4 in Knowledge (History), Nimble Charge
5: 8 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, 7 in Knowledge (History)
6: 9 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, 8 in Knowledge (History), Nimble Stand
7: 10 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 1 in Knowledge (Local)
8: 11 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), Extreme Leap
9: 12 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 3 in Knowledge (Local)
10: 13 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), Back on Your Feet
11: 14 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 5 in Knowledge (Local)
12: 15 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 7 in Knowledge (Local)
13: 16 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 9 in Knowledge (Local)
14: 12 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 11 in Knowledge (Local)
15: 18 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 13 in Knowledge (Local)
16: 19 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 15 in Knowledge (Local)
17: 20 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 17 in Knowledge (Local)
18: 21 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 19 in Knowledge (Local)
19: 22 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), 21 in Knowledge (Local)
20: 23 in tumble, concentrate, intimidate, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local)

DM: Movement of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Bounding Assault, Hearing the Air, Time Stands Still
IH: Steely Strike, Wall of Blades, Dancing Blade Form, Adamantite Hurricane, Strike of Perfect Clarity
TC: Hunter's Sense, Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Swooping Dragon Strike
WR: Leading the Charge , White Raven Tactics, Tactics of the Wolf

level 1:
stats: 16, 14, 16, 14, 8, 8
feats: Devil's Favor (racial), Improved Sunder (lvl 1), Power Attack (Shaky), Improved Bull Rush (Weak Will)
maneuvers: Movement of Perfect Mind (DM), Steely Strike (IH), Sudden Leap (TC)
stance: Hunter's Sense (TC)

level 2:
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM) (maneuver)

level 3 (2nd lvl maneuevers):
Mage Slayer (lvl 3), Wall of Blades (IH) (maneuver)

level 4:
+1 Str, Devil's Flesh (racial), Leading the Charge (WR) (stance)
maybe switch out old

level 5 (3rd lvl maneuvers):
Improved Initiative (Warblade feat), White Raven Tactics (1WR) (maneuver)

level 6:
Shock Trooper (lvl 6)
maybe switch out old

level 7 (4th lvl maneuvers):
Bounding Assault (2DM) (maneuver)

level 8:
+1 Str, Tactics of the Wolf (1WR) (stance)
maybe switch out old

level 9 (5th lvl maneuvers):
Blind-Fight (Warblade feat), Leap Attack (lvl 9), Pouncing Charge (2TC) (maneuver)

level 10:
maybe switch out old

level 11 (6th lvl maneuvers):
Dancing Blade Form (2IH) (maneuver)

level 12:
+1 Str, Combat Brute (lvl 12), Hearing the Air (2DM) (stance)
maybe switch out old

level 13 (7th lvl maneuvers):
Quick Draw (Warblade feat), Swooping Dragon Strike (3TC) (maneuver)

level 14:
Devil's Stamina (racial)
maybe switch out old

level 15 (8th lvl maneuvers):
Pierce Magical Concealment (lvl 15), Adamantite Hurricane (3IH) (maneuver)

level 16:
+1 Str, Stance of Alacrity (3DM) (stance)
maybe switch out old

level 17 (9th lvl maneuvers):
crap (Warblade feat), Strike of Perfect Clarity (4IH) (maneuver)

level 18:
Pierce Magical Protection (lvl 18)
maybe switch out old

level 19:
Time Stands Still (4DM) (maneuver)

level 20:
+1 Str
maybe switch out old

As you can see, Grits is slightly incomplete (needs more Jump and to switch out stuff). The basic idea is to Shock Trooper/Leap Attack to the max and use Pouncing Charge. At 20 you're ditching 20 to AC but gaining 80 to damage. Give him something that gives +6 to Str (base 20), a +5 sword with haste and something that can crit... well, hopefully. So that's +33/+33/+28/+18/+13 at dmg+97 damage per swing without crits. Then throw on other buffs. Hmm, well, it looks like my 1000 nonbuffed 2000 buffed was quite and overshoot, but I'm sure you can get that a lot more optimized. Oh yeah, a crit will double/triple/quadruple the +97. Also sans stances.

EDIT: I must be missing quite a bit of stuff. That's looking like a bit over 500, but buffed he should *easily* be breaking 1k. What am I not utilizing?

[Chen]

As for dealing with the MoMF, you should easily be able to outshine him with a couple of Level 9 Maneuvers, as well as a couple of others if you feel like it. Using the Iron Heart capstone alone, you can deal an extra 100 damage per attack if you feel like using a swift action to recover.

You can't recover maneuvers in the same round you use a maneuver. So it would be 100 damage per standard action every 2 rounds max.


Diamond Mind, you can combine Time Stands Still with (whichever Nightmare Blade gives you all touch attacks) to get two full attack actions with all touch attacks. With properly optimized weapons, that's just death by another name.

Time Stands Still is a full round action that allows 2 full attacks. It does not give you extra actions to use. There is no way to mix Time Stands Still with any maneuver that is not a swift action.



Plus the guy missed out on going straight Druid awesomeness for a somewhat sub-par PrC. Druid is one of my favorite classes for purely fluff reasons, even beyond their crunchy awesomeness, and willfully castrating that for such a small benefit is nigh unforgiveable. :smallmad:


MMoF is not terrible but it is weaker than being a full caster. If shapechange is banned (as it should be) its probably one of the better shapeshifting classes. Going into it from Ranger tends to imply the person does not want to play a caster but rather a shapechanging melee monster.

[MeeposFire]

Get 1 level of Lion Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion pg 56), it gives you pounce as an ACF. Go TWF, and focus on Tiger Claw maneuvers. Especially Raging Mongoose/etc... Max your ranks in Jump and use the stance that let's you jump as a swift action. With Pounce, you can now full-attack at the end of a charge. As you can jump as a swift action, you can use that jump to initiate a charge as a swift action, full attack, use a movement action to full attack again, use a belt (It's on the Item Compendium), to give you another swift action, charge again, then finally charge yet another time with your remaining standard action. So, you full attack 4 times. Or, you can use the first swift action to activate Raging Mongoose, and double the number of attacks you can make with the remaining 3 charges you can make, effectively making 6 full attacks on a single turn. Dual-Wielding kukris and utilizing Blood on the Water, especializing in critical enhancing feats is also another valid option(Worse, because a lot of things are immune to criticals).

Of course this depends on an interpretation of how charging works. It says you need to be able to move at least 10ft in order to initiate a charge, and normally, this can only be made as a full-round, standard, or movement action. Being able to move by jumping as a swift action (at least 10ft), can be interpreted as fulfilling the requirement to initiate a charge. To be able to move 10ft vertically on a jump is a moderately difficult check, at 36 DC. With items, though, it can be made trivial. It's necessary, though, because after the first jump, you are now standing next to your enemy, and need to move 10ft in one direction in order to initiate the charge. 10ft up and on the way down, lay waste. This is a personal variation of mine on the ubercharger. Plus, if you use claws, you can look like WOLVERINE!!!

EDIT: I should be able to cook up a level 20 version of this later, just to show that his DPS is on-par with that of a 2-handed Ubercharger...

Also the mongoose line doesn't work like that (they only add extra attacks once per swift action-it does not modify your full attack for the entire round). Also are you using the battle jump feat? If you are you should mention it as that is the only way I can see you getting so many charges (otherwise you have to use a full round action every time) .

[byaku rai]

You can't recover maneuvers in the same round you use a maneuver. So it would be 100 damage per standard action every 2 rounds max.

My mistake. I haven't gotten to play a Warblade since the last campaign, and even then I used maneuvers sparingly enough that the recovery method never came into play.



Time Stands Still is a full round action that allows 2 full attacks. It does not give you extra actions to use. There is no way to mix Time Stands Still with any maneuver that is not a swift action.

My DM ruled that Strike-type maneuvers were attack actions, and therefore usable in both full attack and Time Stands Still. Guess I forgot that was homebrew. :smallredface:



MMoF is not terrible but it is weaker than being a full caster. If shapechange is banned (as it should be) its probably one of the better shapeshifting classes. Going into it from Ranger tends to imply the person does not want to play a caster but rather a shapechanging melee monster.

Melee monster is one thing, but it should not be able to outshine Warblade, a devoted melee class. I mean, yeah the regeneration should be nice, that's fine, and yeah immunity to damage, but even with that in consideration, the Warblade should be able to easily outshine it.