Hellfire Warlock entry requirements...

[thompur]

Specifically, Brimstone/Hellrime Blast. You need one of them to become a Hellfire Warlock, but, unless there are PrC rules that I haven't seen, you can switch them out for a better invocation once you have become a HfW.
Most pre-reqs are set #s like skill points, BAB, or spell levels, or specific feats that can't logically be changed. But there is a specific mechanic for changing invocations.
Are there any other PrC's that can work this way?

[Kobold-Bard]

Specifically, Brimstone/Hellrime Blast. You need one of them to become a Hellfire Warlock, but, unless there are PrC rules that I haven't seen, you can switch them out for a better invocation once you have become a HfW.
Most pre-reqs are set #s like skill points, BAB, or spell levels, or specific feats that can't logically be changed. But there is a specific mechanic for changing invocations.
Are there any other PrC's that can work this way?

I forget which book it is, but one of them specifically says you lose all PrC features (except BAB, Saves, skill points & HD) if you no longer qualify for it, only getting them back once you do again.

It's where the Dragon Disciple Paradox comes from: to enter you must not be a 1/2 Dragon. However the capstone makes you a 1/2 Dragon, meaning you no longer qualify & so lose all the PrC's features, including being a 1/2 Dragon, meaning you qualify again and so become a 1/2 Dragon again, meaning you no longer qualify...etc. etc.

[Moriato]

Well, as far as skill points go, those can always be changed with Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm). While there's no rule stating anything in particular happens if you no longer meet the prerequisites for a PRC, your DM may decide otherwise. It's best to check first.

[Kobold-Bard]

Google told me Complete Warrior, and was right:


Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.

[thompur]

Google told me Complete Warrior, and was right:

Thanks K-B. I wonder why they didn't put that in the DMG in the first place.:smallannoyed:

[Kobold-Bard]

Thanks K-B. I wonder why they didn't put that in the DMG in the first place.:smallannoyed:

Probably because (as usual) they didn't think of it and had to backpedal after some entrepreneurial individual like yourself pointed out the flaw in their rules.

[IthroZada]

Thanks K-B. I wonder why they didn't put that in the DMG in the first place.:smallannoyed:

The fact that it isn't in the DMG, makes it a bit optional.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A note: the tag in Complete Warrior about no longer meeting pre-reqs may or may not be universal. People often cite that no such tag exists in the DMG or really many other places where PrCs are found, therefore, as Complete Warrior is not the definitive sourcebook for PrCs, such a general rule should not apply to all PrCs found elsewhere.


So, take that as you will.

[Diarmuid]

I think it's even sillier to think that the intention of that rules was that it would only apply to the PrC's in the CW book.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I think it's even sillier to think that the intention of that rules was that it would only apply to the PrC's in the CW book.

To be fair, however, it is like what WotC did with XPH and then Complete Psionics if you hold that view.:smallsigh:

[sonofzeal]

Oh dear, this argument again.

I'm on the side that the intention was that you need to keep prereqs to keep the PrC. CW isn't the only book that has that rule, CArc has it too IIRC. I think the reason DMG lacks it is because, at that stage, it was nigh-impossible to lose prereqs for pretty much any of the listed PrCs. All I can think of would be an Assassin or Blackguard becoming Good, and both of those would probably be up to the DM anyway. As such, I think it didn't occur to them to write rules for that situation.

[KillianHawkeye]

A note: the tag in Complete Warrior about no longer meeting pre-reqs may or may not be universal. People often cite that no such tag exists in the DMG or really many other places where PrCs are found, therefore, as Complete Warrior is not the definitive sourcebook for PrCs, such a general rule should not apply to all PrCs found elsewhere.


So, take that as you will.

That view at least solves the Dragon Disciple problem, so that's a point in its merit IMO.

[FMArthur]

I don't think intentions are knowable here. Both interpretations are that WotC made an oversight in one way or another, either in its lack of appearance in the DMG and all rules books after CW/CA, or in its reappearance in CW/CA which may have been due to a reuse of 3.0 rules text (which was removed from an otherwise copy-and-paste job between the 3.0 and 3.5 DMG).

[sonofzeal]

I don't think intentions are knowable here. Both interpretations are that WotC made an oversight in one way or another, either in its lack of appearance in the DMG and all rules books after CW/CA, or in its reappearance in CW/CA which may have been due to a reuse of 3.0 rules text (which was removed from an otherwise copy-and-paste job between the 3.0 and 3.5 DMG).
Indeed.

I'd tend to follow logic here. If a PrC's abilities depend on something (like control over Fire, or having a Charm Person effect, or worshipping Pelor, or being the evilest evil that ever eviled), then losing that trait should boot you from the PrC and cost you its benefits.

DM's discretion, I suppose. I'd just err on the side of assuming you lose it, unless your DM specifically allows you to keep it.

[Cog]

I'm on the side that says, RAW, the PrC prereq limits apply only to those books. Sure, CArc has the rule as well, but then there's plenty of books printed both before and after those two that don't have the rule. Also, from what I've heard, the 3.0 DMG had it, so they did actively remove it (however intentionally it may or may not have been) for 3.5.

As has been pointed out, the Dragon Disciple is a pretty good example of why not to apply this rule too strictly, but there are similar cases. Say your casting PrC requires 3rd level spells - suppose you've cast all of those for the day, but you've still got 2nds, 4ths, and 5ths - should your abilities suddenly go away now? What if a War Hulk gets hit with a Reduce Person spell? Should they lose all benefits and never be able to make use of the class abilities again?

For my own group (if any of these situations actually came up, which is pretty doubtful), I'd just handle it on a case by case basis. Generally, I'd look toward the rules for feats: if you lose the prereqs, you can't make use of the abilities, but as soon as you meet the requirements again you're golden.

[TroubleBrewing]

Generally, I'd look toward the rules for feats: if you lose the prereqs, you can't make use of the abilities, but as soon as you meet the requirements again you're golden.

This is the system I use. I've got a PsyWar PC in a game I'm running now with levels in War Hulk. He can only use his WH features (which includes the Str boots) when he's used Expansion and become Large. Its working great, too.