OOTS #796 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Nu]

#706? I think there might be a small typo :P

[Stormwolf]

#706 again huh? :smallbiggrin:

[HZ514]

Awesome! Thog smash indeed.

[Ramien]

Thog doesn't care about the fans anymore. Thog's career to soon go downhill.

[Howler Dagger]

that was epic! talkyman isnt talking so much now. i thought roy was going to win, but now......

[Menarker]

Kinda makes you wonder if Roy's previous victory over Thog was a fluke. ^^;

[JoseB]

HOLY SBLART....!!! :smalleek:

And the parallels to the comparable freak-out of Roy when Xykon broke his sword are still there (Roy also picked Xykon bodily and threw him against an immovable object)... The difference being that Thog is *way* more savagely violent than Roy was then.

Crap, I am worried about Roy... :smalleek:

[kivzirrum]

Well... that was brutal. :smalleek: Poor Roy.

[Ping Pong Along]

Is that an "X" over Roy's eye in the last panel?

[TerrickTerran]

Ouch...never make Thog mad. Now we know why Nale made sure he never got into a rage.

[eusticepious]

Is Roy Dead? we can't see his eyes in the last panel!:smalleek:

[Sir_Chivalry]

That was the single most awesome thing Ive seen all week. This is why I love fighters!

[Lord Raziere]

:smalleek:

that comic has got to hurt.

[Dalek-K]

Hmmm now this makes me wonder how strong Thog is with his boost... To be able to push Roy through the air and into (not against but INTO) the opposite wall... Dang...

[RMS Oceanic]

Ouch. :smalleek:

And I think we can see Roy's eyebrows in the >_< position, so he's not dead.

[Gift Jeraff]

Awesome. :smallcool:

And if you're a fan of a bloodthirsty murderer, then you deserve to...oh wait.

Minor Nitpick: Thog's face should have the scratch from #791 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html) when facing our left.

Did he just make a hole for Belkar to enter the scene? :smallbiggrin:

[ExtravagantEvil]

Woah :smalleek:. That was both awesome and worrying> I hope Roy survives this, or gets called out of the Arena. The surrender'll probably get him pulled out all things concerned. If anyone hears it that is.

[Pigkappa]

Does it make sense mechanically? Going into rage gives you a lot of monk levels?

[Cicciograna]

Oh, my...
Thogminator...

[Great Dane]

Good gravy, that was brutal.

[Timeless Error]

Oh dear. :smalleek:

[Menarker]

That was the single most awesome thing Ive seen all week. This is why I love fighters!

Thog is a barbarian. Roy is the fighter.

[Dr.Epic]

This is why Thog has more fans than Roy.

[Rizban]

Is Roy due to lose yet another level from being raised?

[Friv]

Does it make sense mechanically? Going into rage gives you a lot of monk levels?

Mechanically, Thog could just have taken Improved Unarmed Strike at some level. Not optimal, but I don't think he worried too much about that.


As for Roy, we know that a lot of his ability is tied into his weapons. If Thog is good without them, and Roy isn't, this is not a good place for Roy to be.

[enderlord99]

In the last panel is Roy :smallfurious: or... well... this again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)

[Timeless Error]

In the last panel is Roy :smallfurious: or... well... this again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)

Oh gosh, I hope not. But I wouldn't be surprised if he's knocked into negatives. This would be a good time for Durkon to show up.

[Kurald Galain]

Ouch!

No other words but ouch!

[eusticepious]

Wow! So powerful! Love the title and artwork in this one. I'm trembling.

[Pip]

Ouch! Just reading that hurt!

Poor Roy.

:smalleek:

[comicshorse]

Does it make sense mechanically? Going into rage gives you a lot of monk levels?

No but it does put your Strength up by 4

[Psyren]

And now you know why Barbarians are a tier above Fighters :smalltongue:

I'm hoping all that damage was nonlethal.

[Adicted To]

Most badass OOTS strip jet!!!

[Surrealistik]

Man, it is incredibly satisfying to see Thog smack around that obnoxiously smug snarker. Long overdue.

[Psyren]

I'm curious to see how the Thog fans react to panel 7 :smallamused:

[Kato]

OUCH?! (is pretty much all I can think of at the end of that comic) But no, it hasn't changed my opinion of Thog. I don't hate him any more for what's happened... I don't love him but... no.

[Lateral]

DAMN.


I'm hoping all that damage was nonlethal.

Me too. Unfortunately, he just crushed Roy with a giant rock.

[cheezewizz2000]

This comic made me angry, but in the way it was supposed to. Very powerful. I'm supprised that Roy can't put up more of a fight than that, but that barbarian rage +6 to strength on top of Thog's basic strength which must in the low-mid 20s is brutal. Especially when all of Roy's combat prowess is in his ability to use a greatsword...

You know what, though? I kind of hope that Belkar isn't the one to save him. I kind of hope that Roy gets himself out of this by fighting smarter. All he has to do is last for about 12 rounds and suddenly Thog is down 6 strength and is fatigued. I say that like lasting 12 rounds is a realistic possibility at this point...

[Alchemistmerlin]

*sigh* Can't Roy be competent and successful in a fight at least once?

I mean, it's not like he's dead, we've already done that, so it would be silly if it was just happening again.

[BillyBobJoe]

:eek:

:eek::eek:

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I'm scurred.

[silversaraph]

This after all the speculation that "Roy has it won because Thog doesn't have a weapon, while Roy can run away and attack later".

Guess not. Ouch.

[Whiffet]

Oh... oh crap.

Now I'm going to be checking back every half hour I'm awake and near a decent internet connection. Thanks a lot, there goes my life for a while... :smallannoyed:

[Ping Pong Along]

I say that like lasting 12 rounds is a realistic possibility at this point...

Barbarians get a boost to speed, so there is no way that Roy could just run around the arena for 12 rounds. Not to mention, it looks like he's at the very least in the negatives.

[M@XWeru]

Maybe Thog has Frenzied Berserker levels. ;P

[Giggling Ghast]

Hey, when did this become a stick figure version of Sin City? :smalltongue:

Well, I think we now know how Thog beat that storm giant …

[Psyren]

Me too. Unfortunately, he just crushed Roy with a giant rock.

If his nonlethal is high enough that would knock him unconscious/helpless. It wouldn't cause him to start dying, however, at least not right away. He's ripe for the follow-up though.


*sigh* Can't Roy be competent and successful in a fight at least once?

Let's not overexaggerate; he curbstomed Fallen Miko and plenty of elite mooks (e.g. the slavers.) He's just pretty useless without his gear, like most fighters.

And Thog has got to have a few rage-related feats in there, no way that's just +4 Str.

[Tobimaro]

Is that an "X" over Roy's eye in the last panel?

Too much dust to tell. I think those are his eyebrows. Guess we have to wait for 797.

I too vote that Thog has Improved Unarmed Strike. That would allow him to be that brutal without a weapon

And I thought that my week stunk. :smalleek:

[MoonCat]

ohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnooh noohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohno ohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnooh noohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohno

This is not good.

[Leewei]

Thog, for that matter the entire Linear Guild, really needs to die. I'm hoping for Roy to get mad, deliver a good soliloquy, then messily and permanently gib that obnoxious half-orc.

[Thrawn183]

No but it does put your Strength up by 4

Actually at higher levels it increases your Strength and Constitution by more than 4 (6 and 8 depending on how high of level you are.)

Edit: Assuming no feats that boost it even further like Reckless Rage.

[Psyren]

I think the expression on Roy's face in the last panel is the same as the one from two panels before it.

[Overelemental]

:smallfrown: Least favorite strip ever :p

[MoonCat]

Giant, you bastard! You put all that sand in the last panel there on purpose!


Is that an "X" over Roy's eye in the last panel?

You're not helping!


Did he just make a hole for Belkar to enter the scene? :smallbiggrin:

Ooh, I bet that's what it is1 Good one!


:eek:

:eek::eek:

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I'm scurred.

So much agreement.

[Trixie]

Thog, for that matter the entire Linear Guild, really needs to die. I'm hoping for Roy to get mad, deliver a good soliloquy, then messily and permanently gib that obnoxious half-orc.

Sadly, at this point (barring direct divine-level intervention) the one being gibbed is not going to be Thog :smalltongue:

[factotum]

Things not looking good for V, Haley, Roy *or* Mr. Scruffy...we need Belkar and Durkon in this fight ASAP, or else things are really going to end badly!

[Whiffet]

"STOP TALKING"

Is it weird that made me think of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) strip?

[MoonCat]

Things not looking good for V, Haley, Roy *or* Mr. Scruffy...we need Belkar and Durkon in this fight ASAP, or else things are really going to end badly!

It's been my suspicion for a while, but I actually think that The LG are winning right now. I also think that since Durkon only ends up being awesome around the LG, he's going to save the day, but only after Belkar dies.

[Narren]

Me too. Unfortunately, he just crushed Roy with a giant rock.

Speaking of which, where did that rock come from? I guess he ripped out the arena wall off-panel.

[MoonCat]

Speaking of which, where did that rock come from? I guess he ripped out the arena wall off-panel.

The panel where ROY SURRENDERED! He has never done that. Ever. Not even facing Xykon.

[Boogastreehouse]

That was so much fun!

This is where Roy really learns something, I think.

The first thing this reminded me of was Xykon's speech, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html).

[Drascin]

Does it make sense mechanically? Going into rage gives you a lot of monk levels?

Honestly, not much. Rage gives you a real small strength boost, all told. Only way this would make sense is Thog has a few levels on Roy - might be, granted, what with Roy dying (-1 Level) and spending a while dead, while Thog kept gaining experience.

Kind of weird-feeling, honestly, to see Rage treated as being basically going Super Saiyan 2.

[Kibble Sage]

I'm pretty sure Roy is dead again. "I surrender" sounds like a 0 hit point statement to me.

Literally, my first thought after reading this comic (which is excellent, by the way) was "how are these people [the OotS] ever going to beat Xykon?"

There's no way they can do it with either cunning (since their grasp of tactics is nonexistent) or prowess (since ordinary, level-appropriate opponents crush them with ease). I'm all for David and Goliath stories (not trying to start a religious discussion, just using the simile), but in this case, it's like the slingstone is actually a styrofoam ball and the sling itself is made out of noodle.

Well, I have to admit that I'm almost starting to enjoy seeing the Linear Guild beat the manure out of the OotS, although I like several of them as people (including Roy) and know that they're on the side I'm ultimately rooting for. However, at this point, they're shown as being so wilfully incompetent at what they've chosen to do that it's good to see some real warriors at work.

[NYCharlie212]

Can't say unexpected. Thog already had the advantage of being both lightly armored as a barbarian. The rage + Roy losing his sword (a big part of fighter is weapon specialization) just meant there was pretty much 0 chance for Roy to win.

And oh my god.. This is the first time Roy surrendered... Ever...


Honestly, not much. Rage gives you a real small strength boost, all told. Only way this would make sense is Thog has a few levels on Roy - might be, granted, what with Roy dying (-1 Level) and spending a while dead, while Thog kept gaining experience.

Kind of weird-feeling, honestly, to see Rage treated as being basically going Super Saiyan 2.

The last time Thog raged he destroyed a wall in the prison of Cliffport. I guess this is Oots version of Rage.

Which brings up another thing. What will happen when Thog calms down? If I remember correctly rage has a penalty after its over. Roy may be out for the count but at this rate can anyone in the arena stop Thog if he doesn't calm down? Tarquin may be the only person strong enough unless Girard + Company is here.

[Kevin Schultz]

Yep, quite the beatdown. Which caused Roy to surrender, but Thog kept attacking. Which, as a guess, is against the rules. Which probably means Thog just forefitted the match. So, win to Roy on a technicality.

Fight smarter, smart fighter. Well played.

[otakuryoga]

yeah i dont think "chunk of rubble from destroyed wall" is listed in the players guide as a weapon so Use Improvised Weapon must be one of thogs feats

[HalfTangible]

Yep, quite the beatdown. Which caused Roy to surrender, but Thog kept attacking. Which, as a guess, is against the rules. Which probably means Thog just forefitted the match. So, win to Roy on a technicality.

Fight smarter, smart fighter. Well played.

Well sure, if this were a regular place of battle. This is a gladiatorial arena. Is it even POSSIBLE to surrender in a fight to the death?

I mean... besides the obvious method.

I guess I'm pretty sure this means Thog and Roy are pretty evenly matched in their base stats*, but Thog is stronger when he rages.**

*Roy's win was close enough that i'm willing to chalk it up to his rolls being higher.
**Obviously.

[MoonCat]

Well sure, if this were a regular place of battle. This is a gladiatorial arena. Is it even POSSIBLE to surrender in a fight to the death?

I mean... besides the obvious method.

Which makes it really scary.

Especially if you think that Roy might already know that.

[Prime32]

Honestly, not much. Rage gives you a real small strength boost, all told. Only way this would make sense is Thog has a few levels on Roy - might be, granted, what with Roy dying (-1 Level) and spending a while dead, while Thog kept gaining experience.

Kind of weird-feeling, honestly, to see Rage treated as being basically going Super Saiyan 2.Greater Rage + Reckless Rage + some other thing = +10 Str.

[Whiffet]

yeah i dont think "chunk of rubble from destroyed wall" is listed in the players guide as a weapon so Use Improvised Weapon must be one of thogs feats

:thog: thog improvise! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html)

Yeah, he probably has it.

[Kibble Sage]

Yep, quite the beatdown. Which caused Roy to surrender, but Thog kept attacking. Which, as a guess, is against the rules. Which probably means Thog just forefitted the match. So, win to Roy on a technicality.

Fight smarter, smart fighter. Well played.

I really doubt that the Empire of Blood considers calls for surrender, pleas for mercy, and other signs of fear and desperation to be anything except something that gives the spectators a good laugh before the death-blow is administerd.

[Yagerr]

wooo! quick update! (not that there is anything wrong with a slow update(well ok there is something inherenitly bad with slow updates(stopping..)))

[Bleak Ink]

I forgot how to breathe for a moment there.

[Captain Alien]

I bet Thog is more proficient with... masonry than Xykon is, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) nonetheless.

[Querzis]

Honestly, not much. Rage gives you a real small strength boost, all told. Only way this would make sense is Thog has a few levels on Roy - might be, granted, what with Roy dying (-1 Level) and spending a while dead, while Thog kept gaining experience.

Kind of weird-feeling, honestly, to see Rage treated as being basically going Super Saiyan 2.

...a +6 to strength and constitution in an unarmed fight is most definitly not a 'small thing'. Especially since Thog was already overpowering Roy before this! Not to mention the fact that Roy is a fighter, without a greatsword hes frigging useless, he might not even be especially getting through Thog DR with his bare fist.

And thats assuming Thog doesnt have feat to boost his rage which pretty much all Barbarians do.

And this, my friends, is why Barbarians are a good tier above fighter at pretty much any level.


Kinda makes you wonder if Roy's previous victory over Thog was a fluke. ^^;

It most definitly was, Thog didnt even rage and he was defeated by Elan illusions, not by Roy.

[Zxo]

I wouldn't be surprised if Roy died again. There were a few jokes about "return customers" last time when he was dead, which could be foreshadowing. Adventurers who die and are resurrected a few times seem to be something normal in OoTSworld - I'm not sure if it was in the comic or in one of the prequel books, but
dates on Eugene's grave show us such a case.
Maybe the plot needs input from Eugene or Roy's archon at this point.
But if Roy dies, it won't take as long as before to bring him back to life - the cleric is nearby, after all. Even two of them.

[Kevin Schultz]

I really doubt that the Empire of Blood considers calls for surrender, pleas for mercy, and other signs of fear and desperation to be anything except something that gives the spectators a good laugh before the death-blow is administerd.

Except that Roy did seem to believe that surrender was a viable option - in the previous comic, he was asking for Thog's surrender.

Regardless, they are Lawful Evil - and thus defined by their (darkly comical) adherance to rules and procedure. I'm guessing that, even in such a match, there are rules that say you can surrender - after which it's the judge's call for an appropriate response. Now, because of the nature of the duel, it's likely that the response would be "kill the coward" - but Thog didn't wait for the judge's ruling. And by that nature, disqualified himself, and probably put himself under an execution order.

Of course, because Roy surrendered, he's probably due to be executed as well - so now they're both screwed. But there are Rules to follow, man. Rules! It's what separates the Empire of Blood from the heathen savages!

[krossbow]

I have to say, i think Roy's been acting obscenely naive this entire gladitorial fight. The fact that last fight he actually thought that a gladitorial fight to the finish would be called by refs, followed by him trying to surrender here isn't lawful good, its just moronic.

Roy should be intelligent enough to have realized that a place like the empire of blood would pretty much never have a policy of allowing individuals to yield or have a system around to stop a fight before someone dies. They even have a dinosaur on hand to murder people who refuse to fight to the death after all.

It just seems really out of character for him to not have realized this by now :smallconfused:




But on the fight; while Thog may have a level or two on roy, this is just a bit over the top; hitting roy into a wall i can see being a roleplay of especially brutal unarmed damage, but getting that boulder is another thing. making a dent in the wall with roy is one thing, but ripping off a chunk like that is another; He basically grabbed a rock wall and broke it off as a free action somehow.

Moreover, his rage apparently came with a free disarm and trip attempt to throw roy to the ground and remove his sword like that; its hard NOT to lose when your opponent is getting free turns. :smallconfused:

[Snails]

This after all the speculation that "Roy has it won because Thog doesn't have a weapon, while Roy can run away and attack later".

Guess not. Ouch.

Can't beat a DMPC. Especially when you outright win through brains and skill.

Lame. Lame. Lame.

[Querzis]

Can't beat a DMPC. Especially when you outright beat the DMPC through brains and skill.

Lame. Lame. Lame.

...that was a really dumb strategy to begin with, Thog is a barbarian which means hes faster then Roy. Roy cant run away.

[Ping Pong Along]

Except that Roy did seem to believe that surrender was a viable option - in the previous comic, he was asking for Thog's surrender.

Regardless, they are Lawful Evil - and thus defined by their (darkly comical) adherance to rules and procedure. I'm guessing that, even in such a match, there are rules that say you can surrender - after which it's the judge's call for an appropriate response. Now, because of the nature of the duel, it's likely that the response would be "kill the coward" - but Thog didn't wait for the judge's ruling. And by that nature, disqualified himself, and probably put himself under an execution order.

Of course, because Roy surrendered, he's probably due to be executed as well - so now they're both screwed. But there are Rules to follow, man. Rules! It's what separates the Empire of Blood from the heathen savages!

Tarquin is in charge. The rules are that if the crowd is happy, then it's a success. So whether this is called a foul depends on the audience. Unless they're super mad about Thog killing that fan, he should do just fine. The people up until this point have loved him.

[Xacal]

Well, I for one doubt that Roy is going to die again... but if he's been taken down, then, from a literary standpoint, we can guess that Elan and V are going to follow the leader...

Or Elan could have one of those strange moments where he's competent! :smallbiggrin:

[Snails]

...that was a really dumb strategy to begin with, Thog is a barbarian which means hes faster then Roy. Roy cant run away.

Nonsense.

Roy was winning, up until the point that Thog got three free rounds and extra feats to pile it on. Roy could be a cheetah and it wouldn't matter.

There is no tactic within the rules that will beat the DM's pet, if the DM wants you to lose just cuz it is so kewl for Roy to suck.

[Querzis]

Nonsense.

Roy was winning, up until the point that Thog three free rounds and extra feats to pile it on. Roy could be a cheetah and it wouldn't matter.

...Which comic were you reading? Thog was demolishing Roy. He didnt even show any battle damage up until the point where Roy broke his tusk and that was before he even activated his frigging rage. And which bonus feat are you talking about? Except power attack, we didnt know any of Thog feats but assuming he got stuff to boost his rage is pretty normal since every frigging barbarian do.

Also, assuming that tactics matter in a straight duel is kinda nonsense. Thog demonstrated quite perfectly to Roy why he should have invested more in strength in comic 791.

Bottom line is, Thog is a barbarian, Roy is a fighter. That means Thog is stronger, tougher, faster and more agile then Roy especially when he rage. A fighter depends entirely on his weapon, I really dont know in which weird game do you think a fighter could beat a raging barbarian in a fist fight but it sure isnt D&D.

[Mutant Sheep]

All I could think of when reading this was that Roy has a tic-tac-toe/#/number sign thing on his head.

[Luminescence]

Nonsense.

Roy was winning, up until the point that Thog got three free rounds and extra feats to pile it on. Roy could be a cheetah and it wouldn't matter.

There is no tactic within the rules that will beat the DM's pet, if the DM wants you to lose just cuz it is so kewl for Roy to suck.


Oooor the rules only matter when they're convenient and are subservient to the narrative.

[Boogastreehouse]

It most definitly was, Thog didnt even rage and he was defeated by Elan illusions, not by Roy.

Thog was defeated by Elan's Illusions, true, but Vaarsuvius intellect was guiding Elan's efforts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html), and that's not the first time that has happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html) (bottom of the page).

It's almost as if the Order, a collection of flawed and broken individuals, is really only effective when they, y'know, work together.

[DeltaEmil]

Thog could easily be much higher level than Roy. After all, Tarquin did try to let the half-orc be kiled in gladiatorial combat with the hardest stuff he had for some time.

Roy on the other hand is a bog-standard fighter (with impresive, but ultimately useless higher mental faculties, as his bog-standard fighter training did not entail how to really use those superior mental faculties in solo-combat) who died and went one level down.

[Snails]

Oooor the rules only matter when they're convenient and are subservient to the narrative.

Yes, indeed. It is way kewl for Roy to suck.

[MoonCat]

Yes, indeed. It is way kewl for Roy to suck.

It's not about the cool, it's about the need for it to happen that way for the plot. And I don't think Roy sucked. He was just utterly defeated.

[mini_magician]

If you look at roughly how many actions Thog takes, I think by the time he drops that huge chunk of wall, his rage will be over. Grab and then throw Roy, 2 rounds. Step on Roy, 3rd round. Follow Roy and tackle him, 4. Kick sword away, 5. Grab and throw Roy again, 6 (with probably a natural 20 on a strength check). I would say a full round to cross the arena with a double move. Round 8 would be charging into the wall. Round 9, pull Roy out and throw him. Round 10, stand on Roy. Rounds 11 and 12, get the Rock and hit Roy with it. His rage is probably over.

[Narren]

Nonsense.

Roy was winning, up until the point that Thog got three free rounds and extra feats to pile it on. Roy could be a cheetah and it wouldn't matter.

There is no tactic within the rules that will beat the DM's pet, if the DM wants you to lose just cuz it is so kewl for Roy to suck.

Wha...? First of all, when was Roy winning? It was a standstill until Thog finally decided to fight for real.


Besides, how long has it been since we've seen Thog? And we know he's been doing a lot of fighting in that time. Who knows what level he is?

[Welf]

I guess that was Torg's favourite tusk.

[mini_magician]

Also, just being optimistic, it looks like Thog may have rolled a 1 on his attack roll, because it looks like his attack missed to me. Just saying.

[krossbow]

The issue isn't that roy is losing/lost to Thog; the outcome itself of "he lost" is something that was very likely to occur.

The problem is HOW it occurred. Thog did way more things in those few turns than he should ever have been allowed to, breaking off masonry, tripping, disarming and landing multiple, MULTIPLE attacks all without Roy getting comparable rounds.


The thing is, though plot does affect a story, the story still is, at its core, a dungeons and dragons story, which has aknowledged in the past that the rules and stats DO matter (see Xykon's explanation about power equaling power). No matter how many levels on Roy thog could have, he would never get free insta turns, which is whats breaking the suspension of disbelief.

[Tazar]

Aaaaand the Order gets its face kicked in in open combat with the Linear Guild once again.

Have they ever won a straight-up fight without resorting to cheap tricks or Deus ex Machinas?

[fibonacciseries]

And this is what proves that Roy ought to be a Warblade...

[Luminescence]

Yes, indeed. It is way kewl for Roy to suck.

Not what I said, not what anyone said, maybe not what anyone was thinking, but keep saying it if you want.

[Kevin Schultz]

Tarquin is in charge. The rules are that if the crowd is happy, then it's a success. So whether this is called a foul depends on the audience. Unless they're super mad about Thog killing that fan, he should do just fine. The people up until this point have loved him.

In comparing the two fight sequences (and, from what I recall of traditional gladiatorial combat), once an opponent is disarmed, the bout stops and both combatants look to the judge - which is what occured in one of the previous fights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0778.html).

As such, Roy really did believe that he had won, in accordance with the rules - which Thog proceeded to break (ie, he didn't wait for the judge to make a ruling). Similarly, when Roy surrendered, Thog STILL didn't wait for the judge to make a ruling.

We also know that Tarquin has been "trying to kill Thog for weeks" - but he hasn't outright just executed him. This is a convienent reason to rule against him.

[Snails]

The issue isn't that roy is losing/lost to Thog; the outcome itself of "he lost" is something that was very likely to occur.

The problem is HOW it occurred. Thog did way more things in those few turns than he should ever have been allowed to, breaking off masonry, tripping, disarming and landing multiple, MULTIPLE attacks all without Roy getting comparable rounds.


The thing is, though plot does affect a story, the story still is, at its core, a dungeons and dragons story, which has aknowledged in the past that the rules and stats DO matter (see Xykon's explanation about power equaling power). No matter how many levels on Roy thog could have, he would never get free insta turns, which is whats breaking the suspension of disbelief.

On the nose.

I do not believe that any particular outcome was necessary or foreseeable, at least from the audience's POV.

But this little strip is all about how so much kewler Thog is and always will be than Roy. Even when Roy plays his cards pretty well.

(And, for the record, even if Roy were down at 50% HP and Thog at 90% HP, Roy would be quite likely to win once Thog was disarmed. In "real life" and in "D&D", FWIW.)

[Scutilla]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this makes the lowest dialogue:panel ratio of any page yet.


I mean, it's not like he's dead, we've already done that, so it would be silly if it was just happening again.
No no, I can see this working. Roy dies, and then Durkon shows up on the next page and he's back on his feet in under half an hour. Would make a great comparison to all the trials and tribulations they went through getting him rezed last time.


Honestly, not much. Rage gives you a real small strength boost, all told.
Just pretend he has some weird collection of feats/prestige class from a superhero d20 rulebook to better emulate the Hulk or something, maybe something broken that the DM missed (like Zzdtri's Fly?). No one said Thog's using vanilla Barbarian Rage.

[Talvereaux]

Yes, indeed. It is way kewl for Roy to suck.

Roy is a non-minmaxed tier 5 class. If anything, the power of plot is very generous to him!

OOTS always takes liberties with the rules for the sake of a more interesting narrative. I don't see why it needs to stop now.

[Querzis]

Aaaaand the Order gets its face kicked in in open combat with the Linear Guild once again.

Have they ever won a straight-up fight without resorting to cheap tricks or Deus ex Machinas?

Well they kinda won in Cliffport but that was part of Nale plan so it kinda went perfectly for them there too. That whats been annoying, they keep treating the Linear Guild as totally incomptent in the comic despite the fact that they have been closer to killing the entire order more often then Xykon and that they keep getting saved from them by deux ex machinas and random prophecy (seriously, how did Eugene even know that anyway?)

And by the way, I bet ya that Girard is gonna be the one who save the Order this time.


(And, for the record, even if Roy were down at 50% HP and Thog at 90% HP, Roy would be quite likely to win once Thog was disarmed. In "real life" and in "D&D", FWIW.)

In real life no because even though his weapon is supposed to be «sundered» all it did was break the handle, woudnt be hard to fight with that. And, once again, I am left to think you never fought or played a barbarian in D&D. A barbarian is never disarmed. Thog aint a fighter, he doesnt have crazy bonus with a greataxe, he could take the handle of his axe, use it as a club and STILL do almost as much damage (actually, probably more damage since hes actually finally raging now).


Roy is a non-minmaxed tier 5 class. If anything, the power of plot is very generous to him!

This big time. Rulewise, both Roy and Belkar should be utterly pathetic in a fight against anyone of their level so dont try to bring rules into this.

[SwordOfUriel]

A...accio Sword?

[bengator]

Great comic. I have noticed that the giant often posts a new comic on friday afternoons. Whether intentional or not its always a great way to start the weekend!

And go thog!

[Tazar]

Well they kinda won in Cliffport but that was part of Nale plan so it kinda went perfectly for them there too. That whats been annoying, they keep treating the Linear Guild as totally incomptent in the comic despite the fact that they have been closer to killing the entire order more often then Xykon and that they keep getting saved from them by deux ex machinas and random prophecy (seriously, how did Eugene even know that anyway?)

Nah, they won with literal divine intervention in Cliffport; Thor bent the rules of Control Weather to destroy all of the treants.

[Andre]

About time someone told Roy that.

Neat improvised weaponry once more, by the way. *chuckle*

[Gnoman]

In real life no because even though his weapon is supposed to be «sundered» all it did was break the handle, woudnt be hard to fight with that.

Have you *ever* used an axe? It would be very hard to use a over-sized axe like that with the handle chopped off. On wood. In combat? Not a chance. The balance would be terrible. You lose all leverage, which is what makes the axe useful in the first place, and the head would now be very badly placed, so it would be hard to swing it without smacking yourself.

[Querzis]

Nah, they won with literal divine intervention in Cliffport; Thor bent the rules of Control Weather to destroy all of the treants.

Ah yeah, forgot about that one. Well then, that means they indeed never defeated the Linear Guild without some kind of divine intervention. And I still think that Girard is going to save them (or maybe Xykon is gonna teleport to the city and they have to stop fighting to run away from him? Who knows.)


Have you *ever* used an axe? It would be very hard to use a over-sized axe like that with the handle chopped off. On wood. In combat? Not a chance. The balance would be terrible. You lose all leverage, which is what makes the axe useful in the first place, and the head would now be very badly placed, so it would be hard to swing it without smacking yourself.

In real life, the fight would have ended with the very first strike since Roy hit Thog on the head with a greatsword so I dunno why hes bringing this up anyway.

[BillyBobJoe]

You know, I think mini_magician may have a point. If you look closely, it almost seems that the rock is landing just to the side of him. He mostly looks exactly the same between the frames as well. I'm probably wrong, but hey, who knows?

[Pokonic]

Now THATs a barbarein Rage!:smallbiggrin:

[Luminescence]

The issue isn't that roy is losing/lost to Thog; the outcome itself of "he lost" is something that was very likely to occur.

The problem is HOW it occurred. Thog did way more things in those few turns than he should ever have been allowed to, breaking off masonry, tripping, disarming and landing multiple, MULTIPLE attacks all without Roy getting comparable rounds.


The thing is, though plot does affect a story, the story still is, at its core, a dungeons and dragons story, which has aknowledged in the past that the rules and stats DO matter (see Xykon's explanation about power equaling power). No matter how many levels on Roy thog could have, he would never get free insta turns, which is whats breaking the suspension of disbelief.

But the fight isn't necessarily over yet. Roy told Thog that his superior mental abilities would give him an edge over the barbarian, but thus far in the fight, Roy has not demonstrated much tactical superiority to Thog. He sundered Thog's great axe, but aside from that he has been fighting a battle that gives a barbarian an edge over a fighter.

I had expected Roy to overcome Thog on his own. At this point, it seems to me that Roy will either start planning ahead and holding off Thog until his rage wears off, which is unlikely given the beating in this comic, or Roy will get rescued by his team and use his ability to lead to overcome the entire Linear Guild.

[eusticepious]

If you look at roughly how many actions Thog takes, I think by the time he drops that huge chunk of wall, his rage will be over. Grab and then throw Roy, 2 rounds. Step on Roy, 3rd round. Follow Roy and tackle him, 4. Kick sword away, 5. Grab and throw Roy again, 6 (with probably a natural 20 on a strength check). I would say a full round to cross the arena with a double move. Round 8 would be charging into the wall. Round 9, pull Roy out and throw him. Round 10, stand on Roy. Rounds 11 and 12, get the Rock and hit Roy with it. His rage is probably over.

Awesome analysis. Tried to do this myself and did not manage half as well. Thanks!

[Ping Pong Along]

In comparing the two fight sequences (and, from what I recall of traditional gladiatorial combat), once an opponent is disarmed, the bout stops and both combatants look to the judge - which is what occured in one of the previous fights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0778.html).

As such, Roy really did believe that he had won, in accordance with the rules - which Thog proceeded to break (ie, he didn't wait for the judge to make a ruling). Similarly, when Roy surrendered, Thog STILL didn't wait for the judge to make a ruling.

We also know that Tarquin has been "trying to kill Thog for weeks" - but he hasn't outright just executed him. This is a convienent reason to rule against him.

Need I remind you that in the strip you posted, they were all eaten by a dinosaur? The gladiator arena is all about making the fans happy. Seriously, that seventh panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html) tells you everything.

[Kibble Sage]

Nah, they won with literal divine intervention in Cliffport; Thor bent the rules of Control Weather to destroy all of the treants.

Yep. Leaky would have been the end of them otherwise. :smallsmile:

[Welknair]

I certainly hope Roy doesn't snuff it again. I think they're out of diamonds.

[Bovine Colonel]

Nonsense.

Roy was winning, up until the point that Thog got three free rounds and extra feats to pile it on. Roy could be a cheetah and it wouldn't matter.

There is no tactic within the rules that will beat the DM's pet, if the DM wants you to lose just cuz it is so kewl for Roy to suck.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe Thog will be defeated, permanently, at some point in the future?

Because he's, y'know, a villain?

[Entertainer13]

That was so much fun!

This is where Roy really learns something, I think.

The first thing this reminded me of was Xykon's speech, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html).

Other than, "Someone more physically powerful than you is dangerous," what would he learn from this?

[krossbow]

Yep. Leaky would have been the end of them otherwise. :smallsmile:


I think his statement to haley said it best; "I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!"

it wasn't even the whole linear guild, it was just leeky winning that one. :smallbiggrin: A good druid can pretty much be unbeatable except by another CoDzilla or properly built wizard.

[zimmerwald1915]

Have you considered the possibility that maybe Thog will be defeated, permanently, at some point in the future?

Because he's, y'know, a villain?
Noppe. The heroes are gibbering, incompetent idiots and it's fun to watch them fail. So much fun that even when they blunder into the grave they get rezzed.

[ArcaneSaint]

The problem is HOW it occurred. Thog did way more things in those few turns than he should ever have been allowed to, breaking off masonry, tripping, disarming and landing multiple, MULTIPLE attacks all without Roy getting comparable rounds.
Don't forget he began with smashing Roy's head against a wall, if this got him Stunned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned), that may well have been more than enough time for Thog to do some of these things.
And also, Roy did get some rounds, in panel 4 he crawls away from Thog in an attempt to reach his sword, Attack of Opportunity perhaps?
Roy also tried to attack Thog thrice, but that didn't help much, the first two strikes weren't even noticed (damage reduction?) whilst the last one resulted in Thog grappling and throwing Roy (natural 20), smashing his head through the wall again. Then Roy tried to surrender.
After that it's Rule of Epic.

[t209]

was it me or Thog gets stronger when he's greener than his original (pistachio green to dark green).
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html

[Analytica]

For those who feel this breaks their suspension of disbelief: Even if you assume that OOTS follow D&D3.5 rules, which it may or may not do on different occasions, I have no problem integrating what happened with those rules. Thog could have feats, or alternate class features, or racial substitution levels, or prestige classes, that make his Rage all the more fearsome, allowing extra actions, massively increased strength, allowing it to last longer and so forth. If you want this to be balanced against a standard Barbarian, perhaps this super rage cannot be entered voluntarily.

[BillyBobJoe]

was it me or Thog gets stronger when he's greener than his original (pistachio green to dark green).
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html

That's a reference to The Hulk, who's skin color is Dark Green.

[Thanatosia]

Don't forget he began with smashing Roy's head against a wall, if this got him Stunned , that may well have been more than enough time for Thog to do some of these things.
And also, Roy did get some rounds, in panel 4 he crawls away from Thog in an attempt to reach his sword, Attack of Opportunity perhaps?
Roy also tried to attack Thog thrice, but that didn't help much, the first two strikes weren't even noticed (damage reduction?) whilst the last one resulted in Thog grappling and throwing Roy (natural 20), smashing his head through the wall again. Then Roy tried to surrender.
After that it's Rule of Epic.
Aye, it might not have played out in conventional turn layout, but Roy did get actions, he just didn't do anything worthwhile with them.... also, I'm not sure if there is an official rule for it (I thought there was but not sure), but I suspect there may be a house rule in effect about getting staggered after taking massive damage.

Pluss, rule of cool is an allowed mechanic in OOTs, which is well established. Thog had every mechanical reason to wipe the floor with Roy in a fight under those situations - so it's not like a DM pet cheating asspull - so why get your pants in a twist if rule of cool made that thrashing look more dramatic then it strictly had to be? The end result was consistant with what should happen in the situation under a fair DMing.

[paladinofshojo]

Except that Roy did seem to believe that surrender was a viable option - in the previous comic, he was asking for Thog's surrender.

Regardless, they are Lawful Evil - and thus defined by their (darkly comical) adherance to rules and procedure. I'm guessing that, even in such a match, there are rules that say you can surrender - after which it's the judge's call for an appropriate response. Now, because of the nature of the duel, it's likely that the response would be "kill the coward" - but Thog didn't wait for the judge's ruling. And by that nature, disqualified himself, and probably put himself under an execution order.

Of course, because Roy surrendered, he's probably due to be executed as well - so now they're both screwed. But there are Rules to follow, man. Rules! It's what separates the Empire of Blood from the heathen savages!


You do realize Lawful Evil doesn't mean following a code of honor or rules.....even if they do their sense of "honor" is so warped that no comparison can be made. Lawful Evil also means being cruel and methodical in your actions.....hell Nale is technically Lawful Evil but doesn't follow any law or rule rather than his own procedures and planning.

Whereas a Neutral Evil society is based on greed and corruption (like Greysky) and a Chaotic Evil society is practically chaos and anarchy.....a lawful Evil society is based on social darwinism.... the weak are oppressed or killed off so that the strong can thrive. So why exactly should a victor be penalized for not showing mercy to a loser in a Lawful Evil society? What type of Lawful Evil society would have a rule that you can't just skip the middleman and kill someone just because the general didn't give you a finger gesture? Lawful Evil follow law for the sake of upholding evil......to follow a law for the sake of that law is Lawful Neutral.

[Kingscourt]

Well that's... not good. Damn, I was really hoping Roy would be able to win this one :smallfrown:

Thog is incredibly fearsome in that rage... eep. I really like how this comic was presented, very... brutal.

[Snails]

And, once again, I am left to think you never fought or played a barbarian in D&D. A barbarian is never disarmed. Thog aint a fighter, he doesnt have crazy bonus with a greataxe, he could take the handle of his axe, use it as a club and STILL do almost as much damage (actually, probably more damage since hes actually finally raging now).

If you actually do the math, it works out otherwise.

Thog's problem is that he is, in fact, specialized. His high Str and best feat (Power Attack) are best employed with a two-handed weapon. Take that away and his effectiveness drops dramatically.

Even if Thog is lucky enough to have a piece of haft that he could employ his one-handed ad hoc club with both hands, Roy could very easily make that smaller (thus fewer HP) object into matchsticks.

And finally, Thog did not attempt what you suggest. He just beat Roy to a pulp with his bare hands, which seems contrary to your reasoning.

[nonamearisto]

It would be satisfying to see the "boulder" fall backwards on Thog once his rage wears off and crush him, or at least pin him. Just saying. :smallwink:

[Blaznak]

Wow. We don't often get a real smack down page around here. Kind of a fun change! Still, a bad day to be a fan of Thog!

[Maralais]

WHAT THE HELL?!





Seriosly. WHAT THE BLOODY HELL?! There I was, planning to see a normal comic that probably had Roy distracting Thog and winning, thus starting the chain of events that will give the party the upper hand, and yet it seems much to everyone's surprise, he's going to die. Again.



And I somehow like it.

[Spirited Charge]

The following words are all synonymous for what has happened here today; obliterated, crushed, annihilated...in case it wasn't clear, a rag-doll in a whirlwind.

[Sengoku]

I realized just now how much I missed OotS lately :smallredface:

[Aka-chan]

I hope Roy isn't about to die again. :smalleek: Good comic, though--Thog's Rage is really impressive.

[Bovine Colonel]

Thog's problem is that he is, in fact, specialized. His high Str and best feat (Power Attack) are best employed with a two-handed weapon. Take that away and his effectiveness drops dramatically.

That's one feat. Out of a minimum of seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7287027#post7287027). And a high Strength, while it is optimal for a large two-handed weapon, is also optimal for sword-and-shield, unarmed fighting, grappling, disarming, sundering...

[KingofMadCows]

Well, I guess it really is up to Julia to defeat Xykon.

[Querzis]

Thog's problem is that he is, in fact, specialized. His high Str and best feat (Power Attack) are best employed with a two-handed weapon. Take that away and his effectiveness drops dramatically.

...Are you even serious at this point? Having Power Attack is being specialized? Really? Its just one frigging feat (one that pretty much every melee fighter take might I add, Roy has it too.) Also, anything can count as a two-handed weapon once you get to that level of strength. Kick down a door, pick up a boulder, use a mook to hit another mook, it doesnt matter, Thog improvise. And by the way, you can still use power attack just as well simply by taking a one-hand weapon with your two hands, you do realize that right?

Once again, you are just telling me that you are expecting a Minmaxed raging Barbarian whos full on Str to lose a fist fight against a fighter. You know, that class that rely entirely on equipment. Of course Roy is getting slaughtered, I'm not even sure hes really getting through Thog DR with those punches.

Also, a high str is just as effective for grappling and unarmed fighting as it is for two-hand weapon fighting.

[OracleofWuffing]

:smalleek: I never would have suspected someone of Thog's suspected Int/wis to be able to understand the grapple rules enough to use them effectively.

...

Actually, I never would have suspected anyone to use the grapple rules effectively. Wakka wakka! :smalltongue:

[BobVosh]

Thog just rolls a D20 and let the other people sort out if he grappled or not.

So are we still assuming barbarian, or possibly frenzied beserker at this point?

[Holy_Knight]

Yikes... :smalleek:

[Kevin Schultz]

Need I remind you that in the strip you posted, they were all eaten by a dinosaur? The gladiator arena is all about making the fans happy. Seriously, that seventh panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html) tells you everything.

Yep - which was the judge's call: "kill 'em both". Had one or the other not stopped and waited for the judge's signal, they would have been in violation of the rules. The fact that the the rules would have killed them both (either way) is part of the dark humor of a LE society.

[RedCloakLives!]

Very fine layout and design work! The graded transparencies of section 1, frame 2 ... the extra long frame for section 2 frame 1. Not to mention attention to detail ... the varying font sizes ... varying the impact line color ... the sand effects ... the broken boot. Definitely a pro at work!

---

Roy's attack on the weapon was a smart move. But ... :smallwink:

It's nice to see a class achieving its full expression!

(Earlier on, I thought Elan might toss Roy the you-know-what that he had hung onto ... :smallwink: ... except that would have required intelligence ... but Haley could have told him to ... but did Haley know about it ...)

---

It a story where both the main protagonist and main antagonist have already died once (or more), no one is safe! (Maybe not even Mr. Scruffy - !) It makes for dynamic story telling.

[Quellian-dyrae]

By my analysis, the strip was perfectly reasonable by D&D rules, and it looks like we're five rounds in. I could be wrong of course, but my guess as to the turn-by-turn is:

Round 1:

Panel 1 - Thog 5' Steps, full attacks. First attack is a Grapple.
Panel 2 - Second attack is a Grapple check to deal damage. Roy gets a black eye and # sign on his face as battle damage.
Panel 3 - Third attack is a Trip.
All three actions succeed, as one would expect. Thog has a +2 racial Str bonus on Roy, and probably an extra +6 for Greater Rage, even without further rage optimization. There's also, as has been noted, a significant chance that he's higher level than Roy at this stage.
Panel 4 - Roy takes Move action to stand and another to get to his sword. Picking up the sword would be another Move action, so he can't this round.

Round 2:

Panel 5 - Thog takes a Move action to jump in, standard action to Overrun Roy, knocking him prone.
Panel 6 - Thog kicks the sword away. It's reasonable enough to allow this as a Swift or Free action.
Panel 7 - Rule of Cool/DM Fiat has sword decapitate one of Thog's fans.
Panels 8-10 - Roy full attacks. Actually a bit of a discrepency in Roy's favor, as he also gets to stand despite using both his Move and Standard action. Regardless, at 1d3+4 damage against presumably DR 2, he doesn't even nick the raging d12 HD barbarian.

Round 3:

Panels 11-13 - Thog hurls Roy into a wall. There aren't any game rules for this situation. However, it would be reasonable to treat all three panels as a single charging bull rush. If Thog rolled high and Roy low, it could account for the significant range.
Off Panel - Roy total defends. He can't hurt Thog appreciably, has very little chance against him with maneuvers, it's not a great move tactically, but nothing else is either. Theoretically, he might have taken some other off-panel action that wasn't shown since panels 8-10 already established that Roy can't really hurt Thog at this stage.

Round 4:

Panel 14 - Thog full attacks. Grapple, Trip.
Panel 15 - Third attack, Grapple attempt for damage. Roy gets a jagged line where Thog stomped as battle damage.
Off Panel - Roy full attacks for three chances to escape Grapple, succeeds, but is still prone.
Panel 16 - Roy attempts to surrender as a Free action.

Round 5:

Panel 17 - As a Move action, Thog grabs a big ol' hunk of crumbling wall and slams Roy with it as an improvised weapon, as a Standard action.

The sheer amount of damage Thog did to the arena can't be adequately dealt with by the rules, but tack on Rule of Cool and the possibility of the Destructive Rage feat, maybe even Dungeoncrasher from those two fighter levels he has (is Ftr2 enough for Dungeoncrasher?) and it's perfectly reasonable.

There's also a distinct lack of AoOs going on. This could mean that Thog has a number of Improved Combat Maneuver feats (which would further cement his utter dominance, as another +4 over Roy would bring him from tough to beat in an opposed check to nigh-unbeatable), or it could just be because Roy only got a C- in his Attacks of Opportunity class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

[ref]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this makes the lowest dialogue:panel ratio of any page yet.

Corrected. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html)

[hayabusa]

Wow, what a beatdown.

[Kevin Schultz]

You do realize Lawful Evil doesn't mean following a code of honor or rules.....even if they do their sense of "honor" is so warped that no comparison can be made. Lawful Evil also means being cruel and methodical in your actions.....hell Nale is technically Lawful Evil but doesn't follow any law or rule rather than his own procedures and planning.

Whereas a Neutral Evil society is based on greed and corruption (like Greysky) and a Chaotic Evil society is practically chaos and anarchy.....a lawful Evil society is based on social darwinism.... the weak are oppressed or killed off so that the strong can thrive. So why exactly should a victor be penalized for not showing mercy to a loser in a Lawful Evil society? What type of Lawful Evil society would have a rule that you can't just skip the middleman and kill someone just because the general didn't give you a finger gesture? Lawful Evil follow law for the sake of upholding evil......to follow a law for the sake of that law is Lawful Neutral.

Answer: the kind of Lawful Evil soceity that is based on a humorous exagerration of the description given in the Player's Handbook:

From The 3.5 Player's Handbook, page 87: "Lawful Evil: Dominator - A lawful evil villian methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard to whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom,dignity , or life. He plays by the rules, but without mercy or compassion....He is loath to break laws or promises. This reluctance is partly becuse of his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds...."

Note the emphasis on the fact that LE villians do, in fact, strive to obey the law, because they know how to work the system. Further:

"Some LE villians have particualr taboos, such as not killing in colde blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that those compunctions put them above unprincipled villians."

In this context, Tarquin's code is that of Dramatic Necessity.

[paladinofshojo]

It seems to me that Roy getting his ass handed to him by someone who he previously ranted about being "nothing special" is downright ironic. It also seems to be Karma-riffic how he was understimating Thog's strengths ("I don't care how strong you are, thug") and overestimating his own ("You're all brawn, no brain, while I have both!")....

It seems to me that Roy seems to forget that he's a Tier 5 class(although a very high tier 5) and his opponent is a Tier 4 who specializes in close quarters- melee combat.... It doesn't matter how "smart" he is....the gap in power is too much.....

[Trufflehound]

A two-page comic with four words. I love it.

[iBear]

It seems to me that Roy getting his ass handed to him by someone who he previously ranted about being "nothing special" is downright ironic. It also seems to be Karma-riffic how he was understimating Thog's strengths ("I don't care how strong you are, thug") and overestimating his own ("You're all brawn, no brain, while I have both!")....

It seems to me that Roy seems to forget that he's a Tier 5 class(although a very high tier 5) and his opponent is a Tier 4 who specializes in close quarters- melee combat.... It doesn't matter how "smart" he is....the gap in power is too much.....

I think you answered your own question.

[Tragic_Comedian]

I've been waiting to see that for a very long time.

[Tazar]

It seems to me that Roy getting his ass handed to him by someone who he previously ranted about being "nothing special" is downright ironic. It also seems to be Karma-riffic how he was understimating Thog's strengths ("I don't care how strong you are, thug") and overestimating his own ("You're all brawn, no brain, while I have both!")....

It seems to me that Roy seems to forget that he's a Tier 5 class(although a very high tier 5) and his opponent is a Tier 4 who specializes in close quarters- melee combat.... It doesn't matter how "smart" he is....the gap in power is too much.....

Class tiers are irrelevant. OotS uses a game as a medium to tell a story, not the other way around. As such, the game will be bent to service the story whenever necessary.

If story demands that a fighter beat a wizard, it will be done, regardless of how respectively powerful they are.

[ScrapperTBP]

Well we saw how quickly Thog's rage ended here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html). I mean he could have extended the length of time but as mini_magician said he has already used up a lot of rounds. We do not know truly how hurt Roy is. Yes it looks like he took a beating but so has Thog and the kick-out we assume he will get could tip the balance. I mean we all thought Thog was out for the count in the last strip even with rage and look what happened. We don't even know if the hunking piece o' wall hit Roy. We can't see properly.

[Treblain]

There aren't really tiers in OOTS, so that doesn't come into it.

But you have a point. No, Roy has done nothing to "deserve" this. But he does have a lesson coming in here. I predict he will end this fight and this storyline by demonstrating that his intelligence is an advantage, and not in a mechanical sense like taking a prestige class tailored to his stats. Roy is a smart fighter, and he will stay that way. Maybe he "deserves" being derided for the career choice he made considering his stats, but that's it.

[Midnight_v]

I've never written before, about a comic.
I collect comics in real life and on all these forums D&D quite often.

I have to say that was bliningly awesome! It was the most awesome last second rage out ever! :biggrin:
You are truly a giant.

[Tragic_Comedian]

Roy has been kind of a jerk lately.

[Gift Jeraff]

Corrected. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html)Though it still has the most panels in a row without dialogue, no? I know they said ratio (in which case 0:12 < 2:17), but it does hold a record of some sort I guess.

As for Roy's face in the last panel, it seems as though it's the same as the one in the third from last panel (closed eyes with angry eyebrows).

[Kareasint]

Well, if Roy has died here, there is some good news.

Technically, that is time served (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0734.html).

[paladinofshojo]

Class tiers are irrelevant. OotS uses a game as a medium to tell a story, not the other way around. As such, the game will be bent to service the story whenever necessary.

If story demands that a fighter beat a wizard, it will be done, regardless of how respectively powerful they are.

True, but the point I'm making is that Roy's bragging about his intelligence even though all he's trying to do is beat a barbarian at his own game (and by "game" I mean killing eachother at close-quarters, melee combat)

[Midnight_v]

I think you answered your own question.
+1

Roy needs to really learn some techniques, or something robilars gambit maybe? . . . but yeah... Karma.
You don't have to love your enimies but its best to respect them, in that they're a threat to you.

[Jay R]

Literally, my first thought after reading this comic (which is excellent, by the way) was "how are these people [the OotS] ever going to beat Xykon?"

With a +5 two-handed sword that sometimes glows with a deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html).


Though it still has the most panels in a row without dialogue, no? I know they said ratio (in which case 0:12 < 2:17), but it does hold a record of some sort I guess.

Nope, not that either (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html).

[krossbow]

With a +5 two-handed sword that sometimes glows with a deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html).

Ah, sword of plot advancement (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SwordOfPlotAdvancement) then? :smallwink:




Personally, i'm still banking on Red cloak betraying Xykon as the deciding factor in any fights.

[SamBurke]

OH. NO. Is roy going to die, again? Many foretold it, indeed... The climax is coming!

Also, I note the lack of vowels! A HUGE lack of vowels. "Whnk," "Pnnt," "Thnnk," etc.

[paladinofshojo]

There aren't really tiers in OOTS, so that doesn't come into it.



It has been lampshaded (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html) multiple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)

[Tragic_Comedian]

The climax is coming!

As the actress said to the bishop...

[Anarion]

By my analysis, the strip was perfectly reasonable by D&D rules, and it looks like we're five rounds in. I could be wrong of course, but my guess as to the turn-by-turn is:

Round 1:

Panel 1 - Thog 5' Steps, full attacks. First attack is a Grapple.
Panel 2 - Second attack is a Grapple check to deal damage. Roy gets a black eye and # sign on his face as battle damage.
Panel 3 - Third attack is a Trip.
All three actions succeed, as one would expect. Thog has a +2 racial Str bonus on Roy, and probably an extra +6 for Greater Rage, even without further rage optimization. There's also, as has been noted, a significant chance that he's higher level than Roy at this stage.
Panel 4 - Roy takes Move action to stand and another to get to his sword. Picking up the sword would be another Move action, so he can't this round.

Round 2:

Panel 5 - Thog takes a Move action to jump in, standard action to Overrun Roy, knocking him prone.
Panel 6 - Thog kicks the sword away. It's reasonable enough to allow this as a Swift or Free action.
Panel 7 - Rule of Cool/DM Fiat has sword decapitate one of Thog's fans.
Panels 8-10 - Roy full attacks. Actually a bit of a discrepency in Roy's favor, as he also gets to stand despite using both his Move and Standard action. Regardless, at 1d3+4 damage against presumably DR 2, he doesn't even nick the raging d12 HD barbarian.

Round 3:

Panels 11-13 - Thog hurls Roy into a wall. There aren't any game rules for this situation. However, it would be reasonable to treat all three panels as a single charging bull rush. If Thog rolled high and Roy low, it could account for the significant range.
Off Panel - Roy total defends. He can't hurt Thog appreciably, has very little chance against him with maneuvers, it's not a great move tactically, but nothing else is either. Theoretically, he might have taken some other off-panel action that wasn't shown since panels 8-10 already established that Roy can't really hurt Thog at this stage.

Round 4:

Panel 14 - Thog full attacks. Grapple, Trip.
Panel 15 - Third attack, Grapple attempt for damage. Roy gets a jagged line where Thog stomped as battle damage.
Off Panel - Roy full attacks for three chances to escape Grapple, succeeds, but is still prone.
Panel 16 - Roy attempts to surrender as a Free action.

Round 5:

Panel 17 - As a Move action, Thog grabs a big ol' hunk of crumbling wall and slams Roy with it as an improvised weapon, as a Standard action.

The sheer amount of damage Thog did to the arena can't be adequately dealt with by the rules, but tack on Rule of Cool and the possibility of the Destructive Rage feat, maybe even Dungeoncrasher from those two fighter levels he has (is Ftr2 enough for Dungeoncrasher?) and it's perfectly reasonable.

There's also a distinct lack of AoOs going on. This could mean that Thog has a number of Improved Combat Maneuver feats (which would further cement his utter dominance, as another +4 over Roy would bring him from tough to beat in an opposed check to nigh-unbeatable), or it could just be because Roy only got a C- in his Attacks of Opportunity class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

This is pretty much spot on in terms of rules analysis. I'd also add that in the last comic Thog's initial rage caused Roy to drop his sword and fly off, landing prone. I'm not thinking of a feat off the top of my head that would give Thog the ability to knock someone down by entering a rage, but since entering the rage is technically a free action on Thog's turn, I'm totally willing to allow the disarm and knockdown from the last comic to have been Thog's first actions after Roy broke his tooth. Note that even though Roy is still prone in the first panel, he could well have taken actions between the end of last comic and this comic without disrupting the action sequence in this comic.

On a completely unrelated note, I really like the art in panel two. I can't remember if we've seen that kind of repeated transparency effect to show a circular throw ever before, and the fact that you can see Roy's panicked expression on every single transparent outline but that the real one has a pained look from actually hitting the wall just set up the entire comic for me perfectly.

[Castamir]

Why the hell Roy didn't run? That's what you do against a rager in about all games (unless the game, like Dungeon Crawl (http://crawl.develz.org) boosts speed while raging for exactly this reason).

If there were no turns, he'd still take only a small part of damage. Roy's base speed is 30, Thog's 30+10. Running quadruples your speed, and if you stop before you're forced to by failing a check, you don't suffer any negative consequences (source: the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run)). Roy's constitution is enough to guarantee not having to roll even once before Trog's rage ends.

In a real time system, Thog would be able to make a standard action 1/3 as often as while standing, or a full action 1/3.875 as often. So you run, take the damage then face a fatigued opponent while you're not yet fatigued yourself.

But this is D&D, with a turn-based system. Roy moves 120, then Trog might either run 160 -- 120 really or Roy'll turn around if Trog overshoots, or move 40 and do a standard action, which can do little good as his reach is 5 not 80. :smallamused:

The game is thoroughly biased towards the escapee, to ensure you can get out alive from a losing fight. It's unwise of Roy to not take advantage of that.

[Kibble Sage]

This comic is really growing on me. It really has a good flow to it. Of course, it's a little frustrating to see Roy lose practically every fight he engages in, and probably dying again, but the comic is superb.

As for the exact mechanics of certain actions -- I've always been of the opinion that the rules show only effects, which the DM and/or players are pretty much free to narrate as they wish. So, as long as the effects can duplicated by the rules, then it's not contrary to them, even if there's no specific mechanic involving hitting someone with a piece of wall. :smallwink:

[Kibble Sage]

Well, if you mean, does he deserve it morally? No.

However, he did set himself up for it by underestimating his opponent, and thinking that he could talk his foe to death. So, I guess you could say that he doesn't deserve it, but it certainly resulted partly from his own approach.

Of course, his single classed fighter class makes him pretty much a voluntary loser, in any case, so I suppose my sympathy is a bit less for him than otherwise.

[LtPowers]

Of course, his single classed fighter class makes him pretty much a voluntary loser, in any case, so I suppose my sympathy is a bit less for him than otherwise.

Who are you, Eugene Greenhilt? If there's been one theme that runs throughout the entire storyline so far, it's that there's a lot more to one's character than what one's class is.


Powers &8^]

[paladinofshojo]

If there's been one theme that runs throughout the entire storyline so far, it's that there's a lot more to one's character than what one's class is.




Ofcourse, it's how the character is built and how they are played....Roy's first mistake is never capitalizing on his Int or Wis scores....his second mistake is underestimating a barbarian in a battle of Strength on the merit of his "intelligence" even though that stat can't help him at all in his situation.....

[Mindfreak]

Roy has been kind of a jerk lately.

It all makes sense now......

[ScottishDragon]

Roy has been kind of a jerk lately.

And he's kinda been annoying too. We see thog as lovable,and Roy only sees evil. So, it makes sense that we want thog to win! :smallbiggrin:
:thog: thog finally shut up talky-man,yay! ice cream time!!

[Tragic_Comedian]

I just wonder whether we're actually supposed to agree with Roy, who seems to think Thog is a complete monster. Thog is just dumb. He's like a baby. He can't really be held responsible for his actions.

[paladinofshojo]

I just wonder whether we're actually supposed to agree with Roy, who seems to think Thog is a complete monster. Thog is just dumb. He's like a baby. He can't really be held responsible for his actions.

No Thog is a pshycotic evil man-child..... he's dumb but he's also smarter than Roy when it comes to building a character.....

[krossbow]

I just wonder whether we're actually supposed to agree with Roy, who seems to think Thog is a complete monster. Thog is just dumb. He's like a baby. He can't really be held responsible for his actions.





Oh here we go again... :smallsigh:



http://archvillain.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/not-this-again.jpg?w=400&h=259
http://www.ponychan.net/chan/pony/src/131044686937.gif

[e1_conquistador]

Yuck. This is exactly the kind of fight our DM would spring on us after he had a fight with his girlfriend or some such.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I just wonder whether we're actually supposed to agree with Roy, who seems to think Thog is a complete monster. Thog is just dumb. He's like a baby. He can't really be held responsible for his actions.

I hate people who make this argument. :smallannoyed:

Thog knows what he does. Having low wisdom and intelligence doesn't change that one bit.

[krossbow]

Hmmm. Strangely enough, the quicker the fight is over, the better for the rest of the order things look, even if Roy does get curb stomped.


The quicker the fight ends, the quicker Tarquin goes to arrest V and Zzit'dri; the quicker that happens, the quicker tarquin finds out about nale. The quicker that happens the quicker the imperial army gets mustered to find and curbstomp nale.


By losing, Roy's actually causing reinforcements to go towards his friend's aid.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Someone uses a d12, and you better not make them angry.

[Ping Pong Along]

Is that an "X" over Roy's eye in the last panel?

After looking at this again, I tilted my screen up. I am 99% sure that it was not an "X". It just appears that way because the angle of the dirty flying up intersects with Roy's eye.

Something else I noticed is that there is no onomatopoeia on the last panel. I don't know whether that is an oversight or if the rock possibly did not hit Roy. Compare to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) page.

[Warren Dew]

By my analysis, the strip was perfectly reasonable by D&D rules, and it looks like we're five rounds in.

Agreed. What bothers me is Roy's previous pointless anger, his naivete in expecting Thog to surrender or to accept a surrender, and possibly the stupidity of not running from a rage depending on the size of the arena. Roy is supposed to be smart, and it's not showing.

On another topic, Thog really does have a wimpy expression with the broken tooth when his mouth is closed. I understand why he's so upset.

[paladinofshojo]

I hate people who make this argument. :smallannoyed:

Thog knows what he does. Having low wisdom and intelligence doesn't change that one bit.

Let's not go into this argument, my point is about Roy getting his comeuppance for believing in the infallibility of his own intelligence as a fighter in a fist-fight with a barbarian.......

[Kibble Sage]

Who are you, Eugene Greenhilt? If there's been one theme that runs throughout the entire storyline so far, it's that there's a lot more to one's character than what one's class is.


Powers &8^]

Yes, exactly. There's a lot more to Roy's character than what his class is, too -- he has the character of someone who gets a degree in advanced basketweaving and expects it serve him well in the Marine Corps. :smallbiggrin:

[NoobForHire]

Huh, just realized that Thog never actually punches Roy in this fight.

[paladinofshojo]

Agreed. What bothers me is Roy's previous pointless anger, his naivete in expecting Thog to surrender or to accept a surrender, and possibly the stupidity of not running from a rage depending on the size of the arena. Roy is supposed to be smart, and it's not showing.



My guess is that Roy got overconfident that his "intelligence" over Thog will make him prevail in the end. Which really proves that arrogance leads to his downfall as he never capitalizes on his Int or Wis stats as a way to "stick it to the old man".

My guess is that Roy hates "dumb fighters" for perpetrating the stereotype, however unfortunately for Roy.... You don't need Int or Wis to win as a melee class.......

[Archdeacon GX]

I'd just like to point out really quickly that fighters are not strictly reliant on equipment all the time. Weapon Focus and Specialization can be taken with Unarmed Strikes and Grapple. If a Fighter were to do so, they wouldn't be useless without their equipment at all, quite the opposite -- unless they have their arms, legs and head removed. But then they're dead anyway.

Of course, this doesn't help Roy at all because he put his focus into the Greatsword, but regardless, the point stands.

[krossbow]

My guess is that Roy hates "dumb fighters" for perpetrating the stereotype, however unfortunately for Roy.... You don't need Int or Wis to win as a melee class.......


I don't think anyone has ever said it as best as the heavy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY5qJHZCz2I)

"I've yet to meet the man who can outsmart bullet BOOLET"

[NegativeFifteen]

1 week ago, I thought 'Man, order of the stick has been gone a while. I don't think I'll be as into it as I was when Rich starts updating again'. I got a scared/sick feeling reading this. I'm going to be coming back FOREVER until 797, and it now looks like strip 800 isn't going to be a huge anticlimax.

Edit: Quick question I just thought of: I know that rage gives Thog a ton of extra strength (feats he must have at that level) and a lot more hit points, by why are Roy's punches just bouncing off? That I know of, Rage doesn't add any defense, and Thog is still in light armor....

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Speaking of which, Comic #800 will (Likely) be the Only #00 comic that actually had some huge fight

[SoC175]

MULTIPLE attacks all without Roy getting comparable rounds. That's what high level characters in D&D do. And in a match without armor these extra attacks can hit easily.

Quellian-dyrae did a good analysis

[Harbajar]

Poor little Thog fan :smallfrown:

Thog smashed!

[paladinofshojo]

1 week ago, I thought 'Man, order of the stick has been gone a while. I don't think I'll be as into it as I was when Rich starts updating again'. I got a scared/sick feeling reading this. I'm going to be coming back FOREVER until 797, and it now looks like strip 800 isn't going to be a huge anticlimax.

Edit: Quick question I just thought of: I know that rage gives Thog a ton of extra strength (feats he must have at that level) and a lot more hit points, by why are Roy's punches just bouncing off? That I know of, Rage doesn't add any defense, and Thog is still in light armor....

It's not so much that Thog has extra defense it's more along the lines that Roy's unarmed combat would be negligible since he's a fighter specialized in greatswords

[Archdeacon GX]

Edit: Quick question I just thought of: I know that rage gives Thog a ton of extra strength (feats he must have at that level) and a lot more hit points, by why are Roy's punches just bouncing off? That I know of, Rage doesn't add any defense, and Thog is still in light armor....

Barbarian Damage Reduction. At this level, Thog would have at LEAST Damage Reduction 2/- from Barbarian levels.

[NegativeFifteen]

It's not so much that Thog has extra defense it's more along the lines that Roy's unarmed combat would be negligible since he's a fighter specialized in greatswords

Yea, that makes sense, but after how he smacked Geoff (I'm aware he's an old man), I feel like it should be more.

[paladinofshojo]

Yea, that makes sense, but after how he smacked Geoff (I'm aware he's an old man), I feel like it should be more.

Compare the DR of an old rogue to the DR of an half-orc barbarian in Rage.....constitution bonus you know....

[paladinofshojo]

Yes, exactly. There's a lot more to Roy's character than what his class is, too -- he has the character of someone who gets a degree in advanced basketweaving and expects it serve him well in the Marine Corps. :smallbiggrin:

Yup, that class on "goat herding" is coming in real handy with that large mass of stone planted firmly on his person....:smallamused:

[NegativeFifteen]

Compare the DR of an old rogue to the DR of an half-orc barbarian in Rage.....constitution bonus you know....

Man, you people who know Dnd poke holes in the stories we who don't make up....

[JackRackham]

I think my 'Frenzied Berzerker' guess from last week might be gaining traction. If so, Roy's in a lot of trouble (they continue fighting, even after death!!!).

[paladinofshojo]

I think my 'Frenzied Berzerker' guess from last week might be gaining traction. If so, Roy's in a lot of trouble (they continue fighting, even after death!!!).

If I were Roy....I'd be praying for a swift and merciful death:smalleek:

[ZerglingOne]

You could argue that Thog is using Roy as an improvised weapon against the wall and since concrete is generally harder than a skull, the damage happens to Roy instead of the wall. (Yes I realize the wall also breaks, Roy clearly has a very hard head)

[paladinofshojo]

You could argue that Thog is using Roy as an improvised weapon against the wall and since concrete is generally harder than a skull, the damage happens to Roy instead of the wall. (Yes I realize the wall also breaks, Roy clearly has a very hard head)

Now that's just cruel......:smalleek:

[The Hyperborean]

This comic is really growing on me. It really has a good flow to it. Of course, it's a little frustrating to see Roy lose practically every fight he engages in, and probably dying again, but the comic is superb.


I can see how you feel that way, but there's another way to look at it. If Roy had pressed his advantage after breaking Thog's tusk, he probably could have finished him off. By ceasing the battle, he allowed a second round to begin, a round where he was caught by surprise and disarmed.

Thus Roy *did* beat Thog and win the fight. The first time. Their second battle, without weapons, was lost. In a way, both characters had a chance to show off their strengths.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yup, that class on "goat herding" is coming in real handy with that large mass of stone planted firmly on his person....:smallamused:

Well it sure didn't come in handy with riding horses. Heck, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any ranks in handle animal, and if he does, he's not smart enough to use them, no matter how much he boasts about his brains.

[paladinofshojo]

I can see how you feel that way, but there's another way to look at it. If Roy had pressed his advantage after breaking Thog's tusk, he probably could have finished him off. By ceasing the battle, he allowed a second round to begin, a round where he was caught by surprise and disarmed.

Thus Roy *did* beat Thog and win the fight. The first time. Their second battle, without weapons, was lost. In a way, both characters had a chance to show off their strengths.

Technically only now did Thog get serious....Roy may be a PC but he's still just a single classed fighter.....as a Tier 5 class, he's just a one trick pony and underpowered compared to a Tier 4 class like a barbarian.... Hell I think Thog legitimately believes himself to be a better warrior than Roy, since over the course of this whole battle, Thog hasn't taken it very seriously until Roy broke his tusks....After that, well.....it went downhill for Roy

[krossbow]

I think my 'Frenzied Berzerker' guess from last week might be gaining traction. If so, Roy's in a lot of trouble (they continue fighting, even after death!!!).


Ah, frenzied berserkers; such great memories. the simple joy of using your rogue's hide skill then throwing a stone at the party's berserker in a crowd. really livens up the royal balls.

[Julian84]

Ummm.... Holy crap? :smalleek:

[enderlord99]

Is that an "X" over Roy's eye in the last panel?

That's what I asked.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's the same expression he has in the third from last panel.

[Fox Box Socks]

This is most likely Rich's attempt to convince people that Thog isn't cute or lovable. He's a murderous thug.

[LtNOWIS]

There is no tactic within the rules that will beat the DM's pet, if the DM wants you to lose just cuz it is so kewl for Roy to suck.
There's no DM.

[Alex Warlorn]

Thog I think just hates it when he's forced to see the world isn't as simple as he wants it to be. And Roy is smart enough and rational enough to show Thog just how limited Thog's perception of reality is.

It seems every time that tells a thug (Xykon, Miko, Thog) just how limited or selfish or small they really are, they win the fight, but poetically lose the argument. If Roy gets out of this alive he should get some XP for that.

I just hope Roy doesn't need to be resurrected AGAIN, earning those levels back is going to be murder if he wants to be in any shape to destroy Xykon.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

"Fan for Life" indeed! :smallbiggrin:

[krossbow]

Thog I think just hates it when he's forced to see the world isn't as simple as he wants it to be. And Roy is smart enough and rational enough to show Thog just how limited Thog's perception of reality is.

It seems every time that tells a thug (Xykon, Miko, Thog) just how limited or selfish or small they really are, they win the fight, but poetically lose the argument. If Roy gets out of this alive he should get some XP for that.

I just hope Roy doesn't need to be resurrected AGAIN, earning those levels back is going to be murder if he wants to be in any shape to destroy Xykon.


I fail to see how Roy's really won the argument; he basically told Thog that he was a worthless, meaningless individual, with a heavy implication of superiority, only to then get stomped into the dirt, essentially negating any weight behind Roy's arguments.

I may dissagree with how all this has gone down, but Thog's actions here are pretty much the ultimate rebuttal to roy's arguments and insults.

[paladinofshojo]

Thog I think just hates it when he's forced to see the world isn't as simple as he wants it to be. And Roy is smart enough and rational enough to show Thog just how limited Thog's perception of reality is.



Are you reading the same comic? Thog doesn't care if the world goes over his head.....all he cares is that he can kill stuff and kill stuff well.... Unlike Roy who has more than enough Int and Wis to spare.....Thog only has just enough to get by. While Thog may not be a strategic or even tactical genius....he is good at bashing stuff.... Hell, Thog only thinks in combat and stats.....such as how he sympathizes with Pompey over having "subpar racial abilities" and questioning how exactly Roy is going to beat him using intellect without a prestige class or other mechanical advantage

Thog never had an argument with Roy.....in fact, he wholeheartedly agreed with everything Roy said up until Roy broke his tusks.....

[Armand]

Wooaaaa.... Hahaha... Awesome experssions... I wonder if Giant is mad to someone for somereason... =)

Anyway, and there is a little detail at the last panel. Thog's second chain handcuff - bracer thing is missing. I dont know its on purpose or just a little error.

[Charmy]

Loved this strip, loved the art, loved the rage, loved the rational conclusion to this fight, and loved Roy getting his comeuppance for vastly underestimating Thog. :smallbiggrin:

I also hope that the OotS will eventually learn to work as a team and start building themselves more effectively after realizing how badly they're getting stomped by even moderately competent enemies.

Hehe, but naah, they prolly won't :smalltongue:

Oh and I miss Durkon :smallfrown:

[Lidya]

Poor fanboy. His life was so meaningless, short, and irksome. :smallfrown: Of course, he was a fanboy... So that's okay, I guess. :smallamused:

I hope that giant 900 lb. slab of concrete didn't do too much damage to Roy - I'd hate to spend another hundred or so strips with him sitting up in the clouds using up those frequent dying miles.

[silvadel]

Roy was at best at 0 hp before talky-man got hit with giant piece of wall.

That had to do at least 10.

Looks like talky-man is back at much more talky old man.

----

From my D&D experience you never seem to die once -- once you die you die a few times before you get it out of your system.

[KingofMadCows]

Roy surrendered so it should have been a coup de grace.

[Lidya]

Roy was at best at 0 hp before talky-man got hit with giant piece of wall.

That had to do at least 10.


You would think so. Then again, this isn't Goblins, so we don't have a bloody number hanging by their head telling us exactly what hp they're at.

That is not a bad thing, though.

[paladinofshojo]

Roy was at best at 0 hp before talky-man got hit with giant piece of wall.

That had to do at least 10.

Looks like talky-man is back at much more talky old man.

----

From my D&D experience you never seem to die once -- once you die you die a few times before you get it out of your system.


Let's just hope that Tarquin is feeling charitable enough to lend his son a few diamonds......It's gonna suck if Roy gets rezzed in another hundred strips again....

[rewinn]

"Thog Fan 4 Life" (panel seven) turns out to be true - what a dedicated fan!

(Notice the Foam Finger of Fandom is purple - same as Thog's pants!)


You could argue that Thog is using Roy as an improvised weapon ...
... and a two-handed weapon at that!

Although ... Thog grabbed him by the feet in panel 2, so technically Roy's body was a two-footed weapon (but six feet long!):smalltongue:

[paladinofshojo]

... and a two-handed weapon at that!

Although ... Thog grabbed him by the foot, so Roy's body was a two-footed weapon (but six feet long!)


Just out of curiosity, but Roy would be considered a "blunted weapon" right? Something akin to a two-handed mace? How much damage would he be able to do? After all, his head is really thick you know.......

[silvadel]

Actually that chunk of wall reminds me of monty python with the foot.

[eilandesq]

Given the intentional callback to Roy's first encounter with Xykon, one could argue that the result here--which would not have been possible without the highly questionable disarm by Thog (Rule of Funny applies, of course, but I'm unaware of any feats that could have produced that result, particularly without any physical contact visible)--is simply Roy finally paying back the debt incurred by his "not remotely possible within the rules" decapitation of Xykon, with a bit of humiliation as interest. Rage or not, if Roy still had the greatsword Thog would have been cut to ribbons in short order.

[The Pilgrim]

Crowning moment of Awesome for Thog. Barbarian Rage for the Win.

Should be time for Tarquin to stop the fight and order to send Roy back to the slave quarters to lick his wounds... and then to step in the wizard's duel and put an end to it, also.

[paladinofshojo]

Given the intentional callback to Roy's first encounter with Xykon, one could argue that the result here--which would not have been possible without the highly questionable disarm by Thog (Rule of Funny applies, of course, but I'm unaware of any feats that could have produced that result, particularly without any physical contact visible)--is simply Roy finally paying back the debt incurred by his "not remotely possible within the rules" decapitation of Xykon, with a bit of humiliation as interest.



Yeah....except this time it's funnier because Roy feels every blow and he even tries to beg for mercy....


Rage or not, if Roy still had the greatsword Thog would have been cut to ribbons in short order.

Let's not get hasty here.....this is the first time we've seen Thog fight seriously....

[rewinn]

Given the intentional callback to Roy's first encounter with Xykon, one could argue that the result here--which would not have been possible without the highly questionable disarm by Thog (Rule of Funny applies, of course, but I'm unaware of any feats that could have produced that result, particularly without any physical contact visible)--is simply Roy finally paying back the debt incurred by his "not remotely possible within the rules" decapitation of Xykon, with a bit of humiliation as interest. Rage or not, if Roy still had the greatsword Thog would have been cut to ribbons in short order.

IRL disarms are standard combat moves when unarmed vs. a weapon. A tricky thing to do but since a greatsword is a lot slower weapon than a katana, it should be far from impossible or even unlikely in a work of heroic literature. In the final duel in Romeo and Juliet, the weapon switch is basically a simultaneous disarm/weapon steal.

Naturally it would require some physical contact, but keep in mind that in the 1st panel of Thog's rage, we see Roy flying backwards: either there was some physical contact in the empty space between the panels, or Thog's rage is powerful enough to have some knock-back effect. Sort of a reverse tractor-beam - it's just THAT awesome!

Just out of curiosity, but Roy would be considered a "blunted weapon" right? Something akin to a two-handed mace? How much damage would he be able to do? After all, his head is really thick you know.......

Roy's sharp tongue keeps getting him in trouble!

[Geech]

The Linear Guild were fun for a while, but I'm really getting tired of this arc. I feel very impatient to see the main plot actually advance.

[Querzis]

The Linear Guild were fun for a while, but I'm really getting tired of this arc. I feel very impatient to see the main plot actually advance.

The Linear Guild are after the Gates. They are part of the main plot. Dont blame them for Tarquin delaying things with his son for such a long time.

[paladinofshojo]

Dont blame them for Tarquin delaying things with his son for such a long time.

In his defense.....if you met the son you never had....wouldn't you want to spend some quality time with him?








Roy's sharp tongue keeps getting him in trouble!


Ohhhh!! So he would be a halberd!!

[MoonCat]

Why have the last two been marked as :smallfurious:? They're quite clearly :smalleek:.


Corrected. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html)

But this one is double length though.

We've had two doubles in a row BTW, hooray!

[paladinofshojo]

On a side note, anyone notice the "krak" Roy made after Thog bulrushes into him after he throws Roy into the wall? Sounds like Roy broke a rib.....or 3.

[MDR]

Personally I think that Giant is building up to Roy eventually swallowing his pride and realizing that a straight fighter, even a smart one, is not going to be able to keep up with the other classes now that they are in the higher level range. And then Roy will reluctantly multi-class or take a prestige. Stubborness to prove a point sometimes has to be let go in order to save the world.

[paladinofshojo]

Personally I think that Giant is building up to Roy eventually swallowing his pride and realizing that a straight fighter, even a smart one, is not going to be able to keep up with the other classes now that they are in the higher level range. And then Roy will reluctantly multi-class or take a prestige. Stubborness to prove a point sometimes has to be let go in order to save the world.

About damn time too......

[Geech]

The Linear Guild are after the Gates. They are part of the main plot. Dont blame them for Tarquin delaying things with his son for such a long time.

The Linear Guild are totally ancillary to the core conflict. If they had not reappeared in the most recent storyline, then the comic could have continued on quite merrily without them. If they actually end up playing a major role in the resolution of the main plot I'm going to feel really disappointed.

[G-Man Graves]

The Linear Guild were fun for a while, but I'm really getting tired of this arc. I feel very impatient to see the main plot actually advance.

The Linear Guild has been in this arc for eleven strips. Don't get tetchy because the order is getting beaten into the ground (again).

I can honestly say that the funniest thing possible right now would be no deus ex machina saving the orders bacon. Either the not incapped members pull through big time, or they lose.

[RebelRogue]

Personally I think that Giant is building up to Roy eventually swallowing his pride and realizing that a straight fighter, even a smart one, is not going to be able to keep up with the other classes now that they are in the higher level range. And then Roy will reluctantly multi-class or take a prestige. Stubborness to prove a point sometimes has to be let go in order to save the world.
Heck no! Even though this is based in 3.5, in OotS D&D works like it ought to do, i.e. if you are a fighter you are actually an effective combatant etc., even though the rules may say otherwise.

There's pride to swallow, but pride of being a single-classed fighter is not one of them!

[eilandesq]

IRL disarms are standard combat moves when unarmed vs. a weapon. A tricky thing to do but since a greatsword is a lot slower weapon than a katana, it should be far from impossible or even unlikely in a work of heroic literature. In the final duel in Romeo and Juliet, the weapon switch is basically a simultaneous disarm/weapon steal.



Unarmed vs. a two-handed weapon would have given Roy a +8 edge in the opposed attack roll check to disarm per the 3.5 SRD (plus Roy would get an attack of opportunity first, success on which would stop the disarm attempt cold. . .of course, this could be the notorious C- Roy got in his Attacks Of Opportunity class coming back to bite him in the posterior again). Unlikely, but not impossible or even as unlikely as the 20 Haley rolled to save the OotS in their first encounter with the Linear Guild.

[paladinofshojo]

Heck no! Even though this is based in 3.5, in OotS D&D works like it ought to do, i.e. if you are a fighter you are actually an effective combatant etc., even though the rules may say otherwise.

There's pride to swallow, but pride of being a single-classed fighter is not one of them!

When was a fighter an "effective combatant" in D&D? Out of a 6 tier system, fighters belong to tier 5 (second to last) which means that they are only above joke classes that are so poorly built that they serve no practical purposes..... In an actual D&D game, there's no pride in being a single-classed fighter (unless you are a Dungeoncrasher variant, then you'd be a tier 4).

[Kelvin360]

That spell Malack helped Durkon with? Yeah, ressurrection without a material component or a willsave-or-die spell.

Dues.

Ex.

Cleric.

That is all.

[RebelRogue]

When was a fighter an "effective combatant" in D&D? Out of a 6 tier system, fighters belong to tier 5 (second to last) which means that they are only above joke classes that are so poorly built that they serve no practical purposes..... In an actual D&D game, there's no pride in being a single-classed fighter (unless you are a Dungeoncrasher variant, then you'd be a tier 4).
2nd and 4th edition does them pretty good, you know... Seeing fighters as useless because of mechanical artifacts from one editions doesn't mean that they're not an iconic class of the game. And in OotS they work, because it's based on D&D first (or perhaps more precisely: the spirit of D&D), and a specific edition second.

[paladinofshojo]

2nd and 4th edition does them pretty good, you know... Seeing fighters as useless because of mechanical artifacts from one editions doesn't mean that they're not an iconic class of the game. And in OotS they work, because it's based on D&D first, and a specific edition second.



OotS is based off of the 3.5 edition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)

[BillyBobJoe]

OotS is based off of the 3.5 edition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)

What I believe he is trying to say, is that it is based off of what the Fighter should be, rather than what they really are.

[RebelRogue]

OotS is based off of the 3.5 edition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)
Oh really, I've got to post that in the 'things you never noticed' thread :smallsigh:

Yes, it's based on the mechanics of 3.5, but that doesn't mean everything follows the rules to a point at all times. Specifically, Rich clearly knows that tiers exist, but he also seems to dislike the idea of iconic classes being useless. Therefore, they are effective in-comic, even though the 'reality' of 3.5 may say they're not. If Rich thought single-classed fighters were laughable, I doubt he'd make the main character one.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[paladinofshojo]

Specifically, Rich clearly knows that tiers exist, but he also seems to dislike the idea of iconic classes being useless. Therefore, they are effective in-comic, even though the 'reality' of 3.5 may say they're not.

And how exactly do you prove that?




If Rich thought single-classed fighters were laughable, I doubt he'd make the main character one.

You clearly don't understand the point of the entire comic.....this whole story is about (semi)competent (quasi)professionals.......

[Ted The Bug]

I'd think that this is a great opportunity for
Belkar to go down fighting the good fight.
Edit: Also, read this on a boat, and people gave me looks. Apparently my expression was pretty noticeable.

[rewinn]

Unarmed vs. a two-handed weapon would have given Roy a +8 edge in the opposed attack roll check to disarm per the 3.5 SRD (plus Roy would get an attack of opportunity first, success on which would stop the disarm attempt cold. . .of course, this could be the notorious C- Roy got in his Attacks Of Opportunity class coming back to bite him in the posterior again). Unlikely, but not impossible or even as unlikely as the 20 Haley rolled to save the OotS in their first encounter with the Linear Guild.

Sure; IRL is different from DnD but to make them match up a little closer in this particular case, a DM would grant Thog numerous circumstance bonuses, starting with Roy thinking the fight was over (hence no AOO: Roy can't attack if he's not thinking of attacking); Thog was INSIDE the attack radius of Roy's greatsword when he presumably started his disarm attempt - which is VERY different from being outside the attack radius and attempting a disarm; and most notably was the shock Roy appeared to feel at Thog's Raging. There appears to be some sort of surprise associated with the Raging that rendered Roy unable to react before Thog knocked him down and the sword flying, hence no AOO and greatly reduced chance of resisting the disarm successfully.

OR maybe Roy just rolled a 1. It happens!

[Archdeacon GX]

You know, the arguments in this thread make me wonder: does anyone actually play D&D for fun anymore, or is everyone so obsessed with "Tiers" and optimization and whatnot?

Because frankly, I'd be happy playing a Sorcerer with 8 Charisma if I could make a fun character out of it.

The point of the comic isn't whether or not Fighter is comparable to Barbarian, or a moral examination of Thog, or to be as accurate to the rules as possible. It's a story. It's all about the narrative, and what is interesting.