Breaking Pathfinder with level 9 wizard spells

[Retech]

Please offer suggestions on how to break stuff with access to any wizard spell, using Pathfinder. This is shameless here, so there is no issue with infinite loops and chain gating (is that even possible in Pathfinder?) for that matter.

[Zolthux]

Prepare only shatter spells

*rim shot*

[CTrees]

Paizo did not fix chain gating, despite a simple "summoned/called creatures cannot summon or call more creatures by any means" being added being a complete fix.

[Retech]

Are there any other monsters aside from Solars that can also chain-gate? Preferably some sort of evil.

[Urpriest]

Are there any other monsters aside from Solars that can also chain-gate? Preferably some sort of evil.

Solars can't chain-gate, actually, since they gate as a spell, and a gated creature won't cast spells that make it spend XP. However, Titans work, and some Titans are evil. I don't know if Titans exist in Pathfinder, however.

[Curious]

Solars can't chain-gate, actually, since they gate as a spell, and a gated creature won't cast spells that make it spend XP. However, Titans work, and some Titans are evil. I don't know if Titans exist in Pathfinder, however.

Gate doesn't cost xp anymore though.

[Urpriest]

Gate doesn't cost xp anymore though.

So it's easier to chain-gate in PF? Amusing.

[CTrees]

Well, by default solars don't prepare gate in pf. However... they can, and presumably they don't all prepare identical spell lists. Just make sure you get ones that's DID prepare it. Or slow down and have them stick around and change their prepped spells the next day.

Yeah, pf didn't just not fix the problem, they made it worse.

[Retech]

But now, gate costs 10,000 gp just to use. Will the solar pay for that or do you have to provide it (I am rather low on cash atm)?

[BinaryMage]

But now, gate costs 10,000 gp just to use. Will the solar pay for that or do you have to provide it (I am rather low on cash atm)?

I doubt the solar will pay. I think Pathfinder actually allowed more abuse by changing the XP costs to GP costs, I'm personally way more willing to pay GP than burn XP. Anyway, if you can cast gate, I'm surprised you're having a hard time coming up with 10,000 GP, a paltry sum for that level. Just adventure a bit more, you'll make it in no time.

[Retech]

See, we're in this PvP game where we are various demon lords. And we only start with 12,000 gp, so I'd have to plunder and destroy a place for money.

How many solars do you think that I need to take down a level 20 creature with 15 racial HD and 5 class levels?

Basically, the power is much like a level 20 summoner's Eidolon.

[BinaryMage]

See, we're in this PvP game where we are various demon lords. And we only start with 12,000 gp, so I'd have to plunder and destroy a place for money.

How many solars do you think that I need to take down a level 20 creature with 15 racial HD and 5 class levels?

Basically, the power is much like a level 20 summoner's Eidolon.

15 racial HD and 5 class levels? It really depends. That could be CR 13 or so up to over CR 20. But I would put my guess at only 1. Solars have 22 HD, nice abilities, a decent attack, and are CR 23.

Edit: Oh, and if you're a demon lord, isn't plundering, killing, and stealing, you know, your job?

[Retech]

Yeah, but there will be heavy opposition from the other demon lords + the main demon lord currently in control.

And I can't exactly command solars to loot and plunder. :P

[CTrees]

Gate in a solar
Have it use wish as an sla to get 25k gold (in appropriate components, etc)
Take 15k gold, have it use the rest to pay for gate
Total expenditure from the solar is zero, you've got a 15k profit, and you've got the next link in the gate chain.
Costs are a non-issue, if your DM is likely to allow these shenanigans in the first place.

[BinaryMage]

Yeah, but there will be heavy opposition from the other demon lords + the main demon lord currently in control.

And I can't exactly command solars to loot and plunder. :P

Ah, yes you can. The solar doesn't have any choice, as long as the task can be accomplished in 1 round/caster level. And if you want it for longer, just dominate monster it, Solars only have +20 Will, and dominate monster should be around DC 35 by now.


Gate in a solar
Have it use wish as an sla to get 25k gold (in appropriate components, etc)
Take 15k gold, have it use the rest to pay for gate
Total expenditure from the solar is zero, you've got a 15k profit, and you've got the next link in the gate chain.
Costs are a non-issue, if your DM is likely to allow these shenanigans in the first place.

That's why I think changing the XP cost to a GP cost was a terrible idea. Unless your DM is cheese-friendly, I would not suggest trying this.

[Retech]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wish

I don't think wish can be used to make money anymore?

[BinaryMage]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wish

I don't think wish can be used to make money anymore?

Huh. I guess not. Didn't realize PF removed the creating items function. I suppose that removes the easy money trick, but I still suggest gating in a Solar, dominating it, and forcing it to do whatever you want it to.

[Khantin]

Ah, yes you can. The solar doesn't have any choice, as long as the task can be accomplished in 1 round/caster level. And if you want it for longer, just dominate monster it, Solars only have +20 Will, and dominate monster should be around DC 35 by now.


Solars will is +23, and I think are immune to dominate from evil creatures from their protective aura.

[Khantin]

edit: double posting for the epic win, almost made it a triple too!

[mikau013]

Gate in a solar
Have it use wish as an sla to get 25k gold (in appropriate components, etc)
Take 15k gold, have it use the rest to pay for gate
Total expenditure from the solar is zero, you've got a 15k profit, and you've got the next link in the gate chain.
Costs are a non-issue, if your DM is likely to allow these shenanigans in the first place.

Hmmm why not just user planar binding and grab an efreeti?
Triple the wishes, triple the fun.

If you want to, use one of those wishes for a magic circle and one for a planar binding spell and the third for whatever you want. And bind a new efreeti.

Planar binding is a lot cheaper too!

Use gate to summon the bbeg and kill him when he is under your control.

[Psyren]

I don't really see a problem with removing XP costs. The players that were going to try and break the game with gold-costing wishes are the same ones that were breaking it with xp-costing wishes. Conversely, the same DMs that were willing to let you sell your Walls of Iron in chunks or Genesis a plane of solid ruby aren't going to suddenly not be okay with it now.

Instead, you have the reduced complexity of knowing that everyone in the party is the same level - even the guy who recently got rezzed twice because of a string of bad rolls or the guy who had a bad run-in with that wight last week while his girlfriend was busy making magic items for everyone. Some of them may have negative levels, but no actual level loss.

[Erloas]

Am I missing something here? A Solar seems to be 22HD and Gate says you can only control a creature if your caster level is greater then their HD, you can summon up to 2x your caster level but you can't control them. If you can't control it then you have to bargain with it and what can you offer a creature like that when they have wish and all sorts of other abilities. Even if you had piles of gold and wish can't create gold, it doesn't seem like the sort of thing an outsider like a Solar would find of much actual value. I don't see what you have as a bargaining chip in that case.

And looking at PF's wish rules I'm not sure what good that would do you. Wish gives you access to an 8th level arcane spell or a 7th level divine spell, something you are likely to have access to already. The other options are removing bad effects, a reroll, resurrection, teleport and a stat increase. Other then the stat increase most of those are things you've probably got access to as a high level wizard.

[Psyren]

Am I missing something here?

You are - there are many ways to boost your caster level.


And looking at PF's wish rules I'm not sure what good that would do you. Wish gives you access to an 8th level arcane spell or a 7th level divine spell, something you are likely to have access to already.

You might not have the right one though, either prepared or known. Think of it as "Superior Anyspell."

How often, for instance, would you need Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm) prepared? Or worse, if you're a sorcerer, would you burn a slot on it? Yet by the time you do need to find something, you might need to find it fast - no time to rest for the night and reprepare it, or head to MagicMart for a scroll.


The other options are removing bad effects, a reroll, resurrection, teleport and a stat increase. Other then the stat increase most of those are things you've probably got access to as a high level wizard.

Decursing and resurrection are more the cleric's purview - so being able to do these things can be a huge help to the party. What do you do when the cleric dies? Rather than call off the expedition, Wish him back.

Wish's teleportation is far superior to any other. You can take more with you, it includes planar travel, there is no error in destination, and best of all the targets don't have to be anywhere near you. You can teleport your mother-in-law from one nursing home to another without having to visit her for instance.

I don't need to tell you how good a reroll is, though I personally wouldn't burn a Wish on that unless it was the only way to prevent disaster.

[Erloas]

Well what I mostly meant by the comments about wish, is that while it obviously has its uses, being able to summon a creature to cast wish for you isn't that game breaking when you can simply cast wish yourself. And seeing as how the defined uses of Wish all include normal game effects it doesn't seem like you can break the game any more with it then you can with your other normal spells.

[Khantin]

You are - there are many ways to boost your caster level.


Care to provide examples? I was building a word caster sorc and wanted to boost my CL up so I could use 3 effect words with d6/hd damage but I could only find 2 ways to boost CL (+1 each).