Tired of all this

[Ceryan]

Can we please get past the whole "The Order sucks and can't competently fight off any of their enemies" theme? It's really annoying.

Also, WHERE. IS. DURKON.

[MoonCat]

This is the way he plot is going. And it will continue that way for as long as the writer wishes it.

[Tazar]

Can we please get past the whole "The Order sucks and can't competently fight off any of their enemies" theme? It's really annoying.

Also, WHERE. IS. DURKON.

Any time the Order encounters the Linear Guild in anything resembling a fair fight, the Order only wins by "cheating" or deus ex machina; this is not a new thing.

[Dr.Epic]

Can we please get past the whole "The Order sucks and can't competently fight off any of their enemies" theme? It's really annoying.

Also, WHERE. IS. DURKON.

So...you want the comic to have nothing but pushover enemies and be boring?

[Asthix]

I for one am riveted and can't wait to see where The Giant takes this.

[Luzahn]

Well, I'd be sad if a minmaxed Barbarian couldn't beat a fighter in this situation.

[tcrudisi]

I agree with the OP. The story would be far better if the Order never faced any threat and could easily defeat any enemy thrown their way. It's not interesting when they have to struggle to win or actually, heavens forbid, lose on occasion. I want my heroes to be truly heroic and never have to even so much as bleed or break a sweat during a fight.

That was 100% sarcasm for those who could not tell.

[zimmerwald1915]

These are the people on whom the fate of their world depends. Their world, as such, cannot help but be torn apart at the seams (literally) and make way for a new one. The story is about all the ways they hilariously fail to prevent this foregone conclusion. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Psyren]

Any time the Order encounters the Linear Guild in anything resembling a fair fight, the Order only wins by "cheating" or deus ex machina; this is not a new thing.

Pretty much this


Well, I'd be sad if a minmaxed Barbarian couldn't beat a fighter in this situation.

Also this

[Tazar]

At this point, I really don't get why people still think the Order is halfway competent. At least two of its members are gibbering idiots that can't do anything right.

Their incompetence is what makes the comic funny!

[Toric]

Bear in mind neither the Zzit'dri (that is the first and last time I shall spell out his name) fight nor the Thog fight thus far shouldn't be that unexpected.

First, V vs Z . One of the key pieces of thought floating around the 3.5E threads here is that a wizard is Batman: he can beat any threat he is prepared for. V today is prepared for a variety of general threats that might arise. Z, however, is prepared today specifically to fight Vaarsuvius in a one-on-one battle. Z won this duel the morning after the Linear Guild members learned the Order was in town without blowing their own cover.

Second, Roy vs Thog. Part of the conflict between Roy and Thog is that Roy as a Fighter is "built" as an actual person, with a reasonable spread of ability scores that probably include a modest STR or CON, while Thog is your average powerbuilt barbarian that dumped Int during character creation because it has no mechanical benefit. Simply put, Thog is way more combat-ready without equipment than Roy is.

That's my take on the current situation anyway. Besides, it'd be anticlimactic if this fight ended in the previous strip.

[Dr.Epic]

Well, I'd be sad if a minmaxed Barbarian couldn't beat a fighter in this situation.

Roy doesn't need to be minimaxed. He's broken. He has no dump stats. Really, if Roy had any common sense he'd take advantage of his other high stats and multiclass or prestige to something that uses them.

[krossbow]

Lets be fair here, the "core" members of the linear guild (Thog, Nale and Sabine) aren't that big of heavy hitters. They got absolutely curb stomped at the inn for example.
They are capable of some damage, but nothing too outrageous.

The linear guild is only a true threat when they can convince some outside muscle (such as Leeky or Zzit'dri) to work with them; the three of them alone are tough, but not enough to be a true threat without a God tier class character backing them up.

[Gift Jeraff]

Lets be fair here, the "core" members of the linear guild (Thog, Nale and Sabine) aren't that big of heavy hitters. They got absolutely curb stomped at the inn for example.What? Thog lost because of Elan's Teletubby illusion and Durkon's Hold Person. Thog's one of the biggest heavy hitters in the comic.

[krossbow]

What? Thog lost because of Elan's Teletubby illusion and Durkon's Hold Person. Thog's one of the biggest heavy hitters in the comic.

He's a glass cannon, insane as that may be. He's easily overpowered by even ELAN'S will saves. Get him within range of anyone with a will save spell and he goes down like a sack of bricks.

there's absolutely no comparison to individuals like durkon or Leeky.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Roy doesn't need to be minimaxed. He's broken. He has no dump stats. Really, if Roy had any common sense he'd take advantage of his other high stats and multiclass or prestige to something that uses them.

You're calling a straight fighter broken because he got good rolls at character generation? I'd love to see what you think of god, batman, and CoDzilla.

@krossbow: Elan's save DCs are based off charisma, they're nothing to laugh at.

[Gift Jeraff]

He's a glass cannon, insane as that may be. He's easily overpowered by even ELAN'S will saves.Spells cast by Elan that require a Will save are not at all based on Elan's own Will saves.

But still, having vital weaknesses (glass cannon's not a good term as it usually refers to a lack of all-around or just physical defenses) doesn't make Thog any less of a heavy hitter. It just means...he has vital weaknesses. :smallwink:

[Yuki Akuma]

He's a glass cannon, insane as that may be. He's easily overpowered by even ELAN'S will saves.

You mean, the guy with bad Will saves fails the saves of a Charisma-based caster who has maxed out Charisma for his level?

You don't say.

Elan has awesome stats for a spellcaster Bard.

[krossbow]

But still, having vital weaknesses (glass cannon's not a good term as it usually refers to a lack of all-around or just physical defenses) doesn't make Thog any less of a heavy hitter. It just means...he has vital weaknesses. :smallwink:


You mean, the guy with bad Will saves fails the saves of a Charisma-based caster who has maxed out Charisma for his level?

You don't say.

Elan has awesome stats for a spellcaster Bard.



A heavy hitter must be able to survive long enough to dish it out; thats the difference between a smash mook and a TRUE heavy hitter. As an example, Durkon or Leeky have great saves, Hp and absolutely monstrous power-- thats a real heavy hitter. Xykon as well is durable as you can get and able to one shot people; Zzit'dri has a house ruled (Pretty much broken) version of flight to help against melee fighters and feats designed to make him resistant to magical attacks.


Thog is comparatively weak compared to others in the comic; he can't be said to be one of the strongest around when his competition is miles above him.
My point STILL stands. He's nothing special; he's got a glaring weakness thats obscenely exploitable, and in no way strong enough to tip the scales in the Linear guild's favor.

[Tazar]

Lets be fair here, the "core" members of the linear guild (Thog, Nale and Sabine) aren't that big of heavy hitters. They got absolutely curb stomped at the inn for example.
They are capable of some damage, but nothing too outrageous.

The linear guild is only a true threat when they can convince some outside muscle (such as Leeky or Zzit'dri) to work with them; the three of them alone are tough, but not enough to be a true threat without a God tier class character backing them up.

The Linear Guild has always won in a straight fight; it's the Order that needs to resort to help from outside sources and cheap tricks in order to claim victory.

[krossbow]

The Linear Guild has always won in a straight fight; it's the Order that needs to resort to help from outside sources and cheap tricks in order to claim victory.



As i said before, the three core members (Thog, sabine and Nale) are powerful, but not overwhelmingly powerful without an outside source, such as Leeky, the monsters, or Zzit'dri to tip the scales.

Its disingenuous to say the order needs outside help without acknowledging that the linear guild had outside help as well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A heavy hitter must be able to survive long enough to dish it out; thats the difference between a smash mook and a TRUE heavy hitter. As an example, Durkon or Leeky have great saves, Hp and absolutely monstrous power-- thats a real heavy hitter. Xykon as well is durable as you can get and able to one shot people; Zzit'dri has a house ruled (Pretty much broken) version of flight to help against melee fighters and feats designed to make him resistant to magical attacks.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is pretty much the entire reason that 3.5 is horribly unbalanced. The fighter and barbarian are supposed to be the heavy hitters, with the cleric and druid coming in second, but it didn't turn out that way at all. Heck, a well played wizard is a better heavy hitter without being a glass cannon, and not just because of blasty spells.

[Tazar]

As i said before, the three core members (Thog, sabine and Nale) are powerful, but not overwhelmingly powerful without an outside source, such as Leeky, the monsters, or Zzit'dri to tip the scales.

Its disingenuous to say the order needs outside help without acknowledging that the linear guild had outside help as well.

Thog, Nale and Sabine stack up pretty well against Roy, Elan and Haley.

Anyways, your distinction here is rather unfair, I think. You can't compare "core members" because it's never core members vs. core members; it's a 6 on 6 slugfest. The Linear Guild may rotate its members more, but the fact of the matter is that it's a battle between two full groups of characters, and the Linear Guild always wins in a straight-up.

[krossbow]

Thog, Nale and Sabine stack up pretty well against Roy, Elan and Haley.

Anyways, your distinction here is rather unfair, I think. You can't compare "core members" because it's never core members vs. core members; it's a 6 on 6 slugfest. The Linear Guild may rotate its members more, but the fact of the matter is that it's a battle between two full groups of characters, and the Linear Guild always wins in a straight-up.



it's a 6 on 6 slugfest.
In this case, you would have to count the first fight against the linear guild as a straight up fight as well; 6 on 6 as it were? Disregard outside help of all sorts (the Giant horde of monsters for the guild, the prophecy for the Order), and go by the two teams just duking it out.
The order beat the linear guild fairly handily in that situation. If they have been shown to win in a straight up, face to face fight, i find fault in the argument that the linear guild outmatches them so.

[ScrapperTBP]

Opposite vs opposite the Linear Guild will take out the OOTS because that is what it was build for. Together I think OOTS has an advantage. Not by much. But just.
Also we are yet to see Durkon's opposite. Will have to be good to stand up to Durkon though.

[Tazar]

In this case, you would have to count the first fight against the linear guild as a straight up fight as well; 6 on 6 as it were? Disregard outside help of all sorts (the Giant horde of monsters for the guild, the prophecy for the Order), and go by the two teams just duking it out.
The order beat the linear guild fairly handily in that situation. If they have been shown to win in a straight up, face to face fight, i find fault in the argument that the linear guild outmatches them so.

Just so we're clear, you are referring to the same fight where Vaarsuuvius has the most powerful member of the Linear Guild dragged away by copyright lawyers after being soundly defeated by said member, right?

Yeaaaahh.

[KingofMadCows]

First, V vs Z . One of the key pieces of thought floating around the 3.5E threads here is that a wizard is Batman: he can beat any threat he is prepared for. V today is prepared for a variety of general threats that might arise. Z, however, is prepared today specifically to fight Vaarsuvius in a one-on-one battle. Z won this duel the morning after the Linear Guild members learned the Order was in town without blowing their own cover.

Not to mention the fact that V is specializing in evocation, the weakest school of magic and chose conjuration, the strongest school, as one of his prohibited school.

[krossbow]

Just so we're clear, you are referring to the same fight where Vaarsuuvius has the most powerful member of the Linear Guild dragged away by copyright lawyers after being soundly defeated by said member, right?

Yeaaaahh.


Did varsuvious intervene in the defeat of the other 4 members? No, rather they were each defeated handily by the other members with barely any trouble. Am i to understand then that Zzit'dri is so powerful that he can not only defeat V, but would have then been able to have defeated all four of the other members of the order?


Essentially, as i was arguing about earlier, the linear guild then relies on finding ONE overpowered individual to carry the rest of them?

[Tazar]

Did varsuvious intervene in the defeat of the other 4 members? No, rather they were each defeated handily by the other members with barely any trouble. Am i to understand then that Zzit'dri is so powerful that he can not only defeat V, but would have then been able to have defeated all four of the other members of the order?


Essentially, as i was arguing about earlier, the linear guild then relies on finding ONE overpowered individual to carry the rest of them?

Let's review this fight:

Thog defeated because he is "afraid of girls", barely scratched.
Zzit'dri dragged away by copyright lawyers.
Hilga dropped off a cliff.

The kobold, Nale and Sabine are defeated straight up, but Zzit'dri (who could easily have messed up the rest of the Order single-handedly), Thog and Hilga are defeated via Deus ex Machina or cheap tricks. All three of these characters would have been able to knock a considerable dent in the Order.

The Linear Guild doesn't rely on one OP individual any more than the Order does, and its individual members are usually far more competent.

[krossbow]

The use of a magical image to inspire fear is a logical use of illusion magic; That's one of the main points of those spells. I fail to see how Elan using a girl is any different than someone using a monster or other horrific image for their magic.

[Tazar]

The use of a magical image to inspire fear is a logical use of illusion magic; That's one of the main points of those spells. I fail to see how Elan using a girl is any different than someone using a monster or other horrific image for their magic.

It's not, but it is nonetheless a victory by "DM fiat" (Thog is somehow afraid of girls to the point where he'd rather be disarmed in the presence of armed foes than talk to one) rather than victory via actual combat.

Hilga didn't even get a chance to fight, either, so when the Order began fighting back it was 6v5 right from the start, and they still needed deus ex machinas to save them.

[Flame of Anor]

It's not, but it is nonetheless a victory by "DM fiat" (Thog is somehow afraid of girls to the point where he'd rather be disarmed in the presence of armed foes than talk to one) rather than victory via actual combat.

Hilga didn't even get a chance to fight, either, so when the Order began fighting back it was 6v5 right from the start, and they still needed deus ex machinas to save them.

5 v. 5 -- Durkon was out.

[rewinn]

Let's not forget that Roy is a party leader whereas Thog is not. He's in trouble vs. Thog because Thog is "elegant in his simplicity" - purely optimized for one-on-one combat.
Roy's great Int and Wis are not very helpful in an arena where there are no cliffs or other features to turn to his advantage. He especially misses the support of the team he has put together to help him on his quest - a quest which is his main goal, and for which great Int and Wis in a leader is more important than being able to PvP a thug. Or Thog.
Or course, that might get him killed right now.

[Morgan Wick]

I agree with the OP. The story would be far better if the Order never faced any threat and could easily defeat any enemy thrown their way. It's not interesting when they have to struggle to win or actually, heavens forbid, lose on occasion. I want my heroes to be truly heroic and never have to even so much as bleed or break a sweat during a fight.

QFT. :lol:

[Geech]

I agree with the OP. The story would be far better if the Order never faced any threat and could easily defeat any enemy thrown their way. It's not interesting when they have to struggle to win or actually, heavens forbid, lose on occasion. I want my heroes to be truly heroic and never have to even so much as bleed or break a sweat during a fight.

That was 100% sarcasm for those who could not tell.

That clearly is not the OP's point. Going back to at least the fall of Azure City, I don't think the Order have had any significant victory that wasn't simply them trying to recover from a major defeat. I love the comic, but the main story arc is really starting to feel like a treadmill; they get knocked down as soon as they get up, so there never seems to be any real progress.

How many "OOTS get humbled" stories do we really need?

[Ramien]

I guess I just don't see the "Linear Guild beats the Order every time" thing. In the very first fight, the only fight that really went poorly for the Order was V v. Z. Roy was more than holding his own against Thog, and Nale wasn't able to take Elan cleanly.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html Thog agreed that fighting Roy at that time wasn't working.

Round 2, in Cliffport: Roy handily beat Sabine, Haley and V struggled against Leeky until Durkon intervened, Belkar beat a kobold using trickery (only fair due to the Mark of Justice, and it took both Nale and Thog together to capture Elan.

Round 3 in Azure city: Haley and Elan were able to hold their own against Thog, Nale, and Sabine until V and Durkon showed up and shut them down hard.

I think this fight is there to cement that A: The Linear Guild should be taken much more seriously than in the past and B: The Order is going to have to step up their game from here on out and start using some new tactics. Roy can't just treat Thog as another thug to be beaten up any more. V really, really, really needs to get some indirect attack spells to go up against spell resistance. Elan's showing a bit more variety in his tactics so far, and in some ways has kept the upper hand mentally in his dealings with his brother.

[FujinAkari]

I guess I just don't see the "Linear Guild beats the Order every time" thing.

Well lets see:

Fight 1: LG won, but Haley rolled a natural 20 and kept the order from being overwhelmed by Nale's minions.

Fight 2: LG was winning, until Thor misread the text on 'Divine Lightning' and caused it to do Sonic Damage.

Fight 3: LG wasn't present, just Nale, Sabine, and Thog.

[Squeejee]

It's not, but it is nonetheless a victory by "DM fiat" (Thog is somehow afraid of girls to the point where he'd rather be disarmed in the presence of armed foes than talk to one) rather than victory via actual combat.

Hilga didn't even get a chance to fight, either, so when the Order began fighting back it was 6v5 right from the start, and they still needed deus ex machinas to save them.

Cleary, Thog's build is helped along by a few flaws. Flaws which should get the better of him occasionally.

To the OP: this story arc (hell, this fight scene) is hardly over. The last real fight the Order had was against a bunch of no-name slave traders, who got curb-stomped, and I say it's high time we saw them struggle against all odds to achieve victory.

It's like how in Die Hard, we see how awesome the protagonist can be right before we see him get the snot kicked out of him. Every victory McClane has over the course of that movie comes at a great personal cost, which heightens the drama for the next action scene where the stakes are even higher. It isn't showing how incompetent the Order is, it's showing how competent their enemies are, so that it's more satisfying when the good guys win.

Let's review: the most competent member of the Order is unable to participate in this battle and the most well-built member of the Order is busy trying to get the most competent one back in the fight. Meanwhile, the only one who has been seen to consistently shine in melee combat has no idea that there is a combat taking place, and the other smart one has been isolated in a fight he had no chance of winning from the outset. Really, the only thing that saves the Order here is that their enemies are too incompetent to take the advantage despite all of that.

If Thog had raged in round one, this fight would be over and Roy would be getting insulted by his dad in the afterlife by now. If Zzd'tri had targeted V in the surprise round, Haley and Elan wouldn't have been able to fight him while he flew just out of reach (and we all know V is too stupid to walk around with long-term buffs activated). If Nale were any good at his job at all, somebody would have isolated Durkon from the beginning. If this were an actual game, I would say that everybody involved here is insufferably poor at their job.

The way this looks to play out is Durkon rides in and rescues everybody, including Stone to Flesh -ing Haley and putting Roy back into the positive hit points. In fact, it would be really cool to see the dwarf show off how awesome he is, especially considering this wouldn't be the first time he's pulled the Not-IP-Proofed-At-All Order from the brink of defeat. Personally, I think it's been way too long since he got a story arc to himself, anyway.

tl;dr: The Order hasn't lost yet, stop jumping to conclusions because the Order isn't necessarily getting humbled.

[Who149]

There is no story without conflict. The hero's have to lose every once in a while or it would get boring. If the story came out with them winning every match why would you read it? there would be no suspense.

[Ramien]

Well lets see:

Fight 1: LG won, but Haley rolled a natural 20 and kept the order from being overwhelmed by Nale's minions.

Fight 2: LG was winning, until Thor misread the text on 'Divine Lightning' and caused it to do Sonic Damage.

Fight 3: LG wasn't present, just Nale, Sabine, and Thog.

Fight 1: LG took one surprise round and ran initially. Not what I'd call a win, especially since once the LG returned, they got trounced pretty handily.

Fight 2: Leeky Windstaff was winning, not the LG.

Fight 3: The entire Order wasn't there either. At worst, the odds were 4 on 3, but for any part of the fight that was one on one or even odds, the Order was winning.

[Blisstake]

The thing is, LG vs OotS has never really been a straight up fight yet.

Round 1: LG gets a surprise attack, taking out 2 members before a fair fight can break out. The monsters also weakened the Order before they could start a fight with the LG. Even then, the Order managed to get ahead due to a lucky hit by Haley. All in all, inconclusive considering both sides had an unfair advantage.

Round 2: Leeky managed to do the most damage out of the whole team, but again, that was only beceause he could prepare far ahead of time. Belkar was also completely unable to fight, although that could be off-set by the fact Pompey didn't do much.

Round 3: The fight is 2 versus 3 at first, causing the LG to be ahead. Then V and Durkon join in, causing it to be 4 versus 3, putting the OotS ahead. Doesn't really prove anything either way.

What really makes the LG dangerous is the fact that they get the opportunity to plan all of their attacks ahead of time. The OotS is too busy with other things (like saving the world) where they can't spring the attack themselves.

[Absol197]

I have to agree with those saying that the Linear Guild isn't all that some people are making of them.

In the first fight in the Dungeon of Dorukan, the LG took the Order by surprise, which caused both Elan and Durkon to go down, trapped them in a wall of ice, and sent a horde of monsters at them. The Order was down 2 party members, and the remaining ones had to fight other creatures, and the LG had no damage.
The "Deus ex Machina" that people are referring to (well, okay, the first one), the prophecy of the nat. 20, only made it a fair fight: 5 vs. 5. Except that it still wasn't a fair fight, because Elan only got two CSWs (putting him at a maximum of 49 hp, probably not his full total), and everyone else spent some resources fighting monsters before the LG came back. And then came the fight:

Sabine flew away in fear because of Haley;
Belkar straight up rips off Yikyik's head;
Thog and Nale are forced to switch opponents because they can't win against their "opposite," and they end up losing anyways;
V is the only one who has trouble, and needs to resort to "cheap tricks."

Aside from V, what cheap tricks or "Deus ex Machina" does the Order employ here?

It's late so I need to go to bed, but I'll be back to finish analyzing the other battles tomorrow...

[Klear]

There is no story without conflict. The hero's have to lose every once in a while or it would get boring. If the story came out with them winning every match why would you read it? there would be no suspense.

Because the OP said that he doesn't want any conflict and have the OOTS win everything without any effort.

It would be nice to see the order win this one through their own abilities and experience.

[Adeptus]

This felt like an utter cheat.

Roy flying into the air and losing his sword... what exactly is supposed to have happened there? It doesn't make sense with D&D, nor real world thinking. Was that supposed to have been some sort of epic intimidate result from Thog going berserk?

Even if we allow for that by the rule-of-funny, Roy should have just picked up his sword on the next round, and continued to outperform the unarmed barbarian. I'm also pretty sure that unarmed damage, no matter how berserk Thog is doesn't deal anything like the the superheroic results seen in the strip.

This is the first OotS that actually annoys me a lot. I feel the Giant did an injustice to his characters there... and it's not funny. It feel like a stupid railroad plot, to use a phrase from the comic.

[iyaerP]

This felt like an utter cheat.

Roy flying into the air and losing his sword... what exactly is supposed to have happened there? It doesn't make sense with D&D, nor real world thinking. Was that supposed to have been some sort of epic intimidate result from Thog going berserk?

Even if we allow for that by the rule-of-funny, Roy should have just picked up his sword on the next round, and continued to outperform the unarmed barbarian. I'm also pretty sure that unarmed damage, no matter how berserk Thog is doesn't deal anything like the the superheroic results seen in the strip.

This is the first OotS that actually annoys me a lot. I feel the Giant did an injustice to his characters there... and it's not funny. It feel like a stupid railroad plot, to use a phrase from the comic.




EXACTLY THIS.

Especially bad is how thog seems to be able to perform 2-3 rounds worth of attacks and movements on his rounds where roy never did more than a move or attack action. Never a full round worth of actions. The worst example is Roy spending a whole round diving for his sword and not even getting to it.

[Cizak]

Roy flying into the air and losing his sword... what exactly is supposed to have happened there?

Roy flew into the air and lost his sword.


It doesn't make sense with D&D, nor real world thinking.

Because DnD translates so well into the real world.


Even if we allow for that by the rule-of-funny, Roy should have just picked up his sword on the next round, and continued to outperform the unarmed barbarian.

I can't help but notice Thog stepped full-weight on Roy's face and kicked the sword into the audience.

[Susil]

It's not, but it is nonetheless a victory by "DM fiat" (Thog is somehow afraid of girls to the point where he'd rather be disarmed in the presence of armed foes than talk to one) rather than victory via actual combat.

(My bolds)

This is a personal bugbear of mine. Why is this seen as less of a victory? I know D&D has a whole contingent of "numbercrunchers", but for me so much of the appeal lies in its complete openness. If I wanted to have one option for dealing with the enemies (batter them til they stop getting up) I would be playing a video game. Not only is the HP system a bit silly (though that's another discussion!) I feel somewhat... restricted if the one criteria for judging a character is their efficiency in direct combat.

I think the Giant often tries to demonstrate this, actually. Think of Elan's recent escape from Sabine... Imagine saying to your DM "I turn my head round and snog the succubus for a couple of rounds", they'd probably think you were nuts. But still, its a great bit of creative thinking, and just completely Elan. On the flip side, the current battle between Roy and Thog is showing just how wrong it goes when his characters try the mechanical victory. Sure, Roy's boasting in his superior brainpower, but he's hardly demonstrated a tactical advantage this fight. And, yeah, he's getting punished.

Basically, I like to see the charaters win in interesting ways. If I was DMing the fight in Dorukan's dungeon and a player tried an illusion of a female half-orc, I'd go with it. Maybe roll will save vs cooties of something. It's supposed to be fun, why can't success happen in a fun way?

[/justoneguy'sopinion]

[Morty]

*snip*]

This, pretty much. The Order of the Stick is a webcomic, a comedic one, not a heavily optimized D&D game where whoever picked the most overpowered class and twinked it out wins. To me, it's perfectly natural that the Order won't win simply by having better numbers than their opponents but it will happen in a dramatic and/or funny fashion.

[Alagaesian]

*shrug*

As someone who has never played a single DnD session in her life, this recent comic was actually pretty good. I don't see any violations of the turn-by-turn system of battling - I see Roy getting curbstomped because Thog is in a fiery rage and can attack fast and hard enough to prevent Roy from recovering between blows.

One could argue that the Guild is a threat because it likes to use tactical advantages and exploit them. They successfully ambushed the Order in the Dungeon of Dorukan, took out two of the casters, and trapped their remaining enemies behind a wall of ice and a horde of monsters, and fly away before anyone had a realistic chance of stopping them. Haley's natural 20 (read: Deus ex Machina) removed these tactical advantages and put them all on a fair fight. The Order was able to thrash the Guild once it came to that, but it doesn't change the fact that the Guild almost won.

So the Guild also got curbstomped in Cliffport. Who cares that Thor bent the rules and Leeky did most of the damage? Nale wasn't planning on winning anyways. He was setting up another tactical advantage. Once he took Elan's place, the Order let down its guard. He now that the ability to lure individuals away from the group and pick them off at his leisure. Haley would be dead by now if Julio (read: Deus ex Machina) hadn't gotten Elan back to Azure City. Roy was sleeping and practically begging Nale to come over and slit his throat. Belkar was charmed. Durkon and V still didn't suspect a thing. I'm pretty sure that monstrous tactical advantage would have spelled the end for the Order if Elan hadn't come in swinging through the window with a new prestige class.

And now, in this most recent fight, the Guild has created a new crop of advantages for itself. The Order is not prepared for a fight against them, and the Guild most certainly is. That's why Z is thrashing V right now. Belkar is isolated and in no position to join the fight. Z ambushed Haley with his spell, removing her from the battle. Durkon is unaware that he's in danger. Thog is keeping Roy busy. This Elan is double-manned, and Sabine had the chance to drain plenty of levels from him. Yes, there are still ways for the Order to win this fight, but they're fighting an uphill battle.

I still think the Linear Guild is a threat. In a straight fight, yes, they would lose. But, when do they ever let themselves get into a straight fight?

[Sky_Schemer]

There is no story without conflict. The hero's have to lose every once in a while or it would get boring. If the story came out with them winning every match why would you read it? there would be no suspense.

The issue is not with them winning or losing, it is with an old formula getting retread. That formula is:

1. The LG gets the jump on the Order
2. The Order gets beaten down until all hope seems lost
3. The Order pulls a victory from the jaws of defeat

We have seen this three times, and so far the fourth encounter has made it through #1 and #2.

I am holding out hope that Rich is going somewhere new here.

[Souhiro]

Okay... don't forget just a thing.

Linear Guild is always ATTACKING, and choosing the battlefield, the tactics, the rules of the game. The Sacred Order of the Stick must adapt to the setting.

Zzi'dri taked on three members of the order, petrifying the only one who could fight ranged, and having spells prepared for Vaarsuvius.
Not-Nale was ambushed by Not Elan and Sabine, and only his awesomeness took him out of trouble.
The Order cannot count with Belkar, and if Elan wasn't able to flee, they could easily take out Elan, and crush tiny-stone Haley, and then send Sabine to kiss Vaarsuvius to death while Durkon is looking how Roy receives and can't do anything to help.

I'm pretty sure that Roy can manage to get out of there, like Not-Nale was able to get out of Sabine and Not-Elan's trap.

Remember that when Thog's rage ends, he will be at Roy's mercy!

[sims796]

The issue is not with them winning or losing, it is with an old formula getting retread. That formula is:

1. The LG gets the jump on the Order
2. The Order gets beaten down until all hope seems lost
3. The Order pulls a victory from the jaws of defeat

We have seen this three times, and so far the fourth encounter has made it through #1 and #2.

I am holding out hope that Rich is going somewhere new here.

I'm not gonna lie, I thought this as well. I was really hoping that V could defeat Z in his initial battle, but it looks like he'll have to get saved.

Now, it seems that the team is down now, I hope that they are able to win on their own accord. Something like V blasting the ceiling and knocking down a pillar or something.

Quick question: there are quite a few druid spells that bypass spell resistance, right? I can't remember. Nothing to do with nothing, just curious

[Zevox]

This felt like an utter cheat.

Roy flying into the air and losing his sword... what exactly is supposed to have happened there? It doesn't make sense with D&D, nor real world thinking.
What? What's so hard to understand about Thog knocking Roy over so suddenly and hard that Roy loses his grip on his sword?

And really, don't even bother trying to bring D&D rules into it. We've known for a long time that the Giant ignores D&D rules unless they suit his purposes or he's making a joke about them - the story comes first, the rules are just a tool. Back when V faced the ABD there was even an instance when someone made a remark that "if he cared about the rules" he should change the way the ABD's anti-magic field disrupted V's forcecage (since forcecage is arguably immune to anti-magic fields), and he actually posted a reply, quoting the "if he cares about the rules" part, saying (and I'm almost sure this is an exact quote): "I don't."

Zevox

[zimmerwald1915]

The issue is not with them winning or losing, it is with an old formula getting retread. That formula is:

1. The LG gets the jump on the Order
2. The Order gets beaten down until all hope seems lost
3. The Order pulls a victory from the jaws of defeat

We have seen this three times, and so far the fourth encounter has made it through #1 and #2.

I am holding out hope that Rich is going somewhere new here.
Well, the only new places for #3 to go would be "things go as they really should have all along and the Order goes down in ignominous defeat," and "improbable LG-OOTS teamup after grievous misunderstanding". After the first, the only real question is who will pay for the Order's resurrections, andwhy they would shell out valuable diamonds to do such a thing.

As for the second, there is no negotiating with the Linear Guild. As far as their team leader is concerned, "finding the Order of the Stick and killing them" is Priority #1. It has apparently taken priority over "remaining hidden until the coup d'etat in Bleedingham is complete, and our control over the Empire of Blood is secured," in a completely irrational manner. Z has stated that his raison d'etre over the last seven hundred or so strips has been building up to fight Vaarsuvius again. Furthermore, there are only two things the Order can really offer them: help in their coup, and whatever they know about the Gates. By slapping the Order around, the LG has proven that they don't need the Order's help in their coup, and Nale and Sabine together know or can find out more about the Gates than the Order can tell them.

[Kibble Sage]

Well, personally, I hope the Order of the Stick gets slaughtered this time around. I like them, but they keep being so tactically stupid that the Linear Guild, repulsive as they are, pretty much deserve a victory for once.

It's not so much that I don't want the heroes to be challenged, as that it gets frustrating after a while to see them being blundering, hopelessly incompetent clowns with absolutely no redeeming efforts, and then get away with victory anyway, "Just because".

I'd prefer it if they didn't get away with it this time.

[Geech]

Haley would be dead by now if Julio (read: Deus ex Machina) hadn't gotten Elan back to Azure City.

Sorry, I just have to nitpick this point: there is no way that Julio is deus ex machina. Deus ex machina is term for a plot device that arbitrarily resolves a major problem. Julio was a character who helped Elan get some much needed development, but he didn't break Elan out of jail, or suddenly defeat Nale or any such nonsense. Elan did all of that himself, with no deus ex machina necessary.

There are some genuine examples of that in the comic, but that term gets thrown around all too often on these boards.

[King of Nowhere]

This felt like an utter cheat.

Roy flying into the air and losing his sword... what exactly is supposed to have happened there? It doesn't make sense with D&D, nor real world thinking. Was that supposed to have been some sort of epic intimidate result from Thog going berserk?

Even if we allow for that by the rule-of-funny, Roy should have just picked up his sword on the next round, and continued to outperform the unarmed barbarian. I'm also pretty sure that unarmed damage, no matter how berserk Thog is doesn't deal anything like the the superheroic results seen in the strip.

This is the first OotS that actually annoys me a lot. I feel the Giant did an injustice to his characters there... and it's not funny. It feel like a stupid railroad plot, to use a phrase from the comic.

RULE
OF
COOL
Thog was damn scary there, and it's a friggin stick figure comic!

If you want to justify it in the mechanic, you can think that thog went lucky on a disarm check, or that roy rolled a 1 and that's the result....
after that, hog shoudl win against roy barehanded.
And the part where roy jump on his discarded sword and thog get to him and disarm him again before he get a chance to get up, well, mechanically, it is a big stretch, but real world, i can totally see a figth going like that.
And i always felt that if something works in the real world, the mechanics should be arranged to make it work.
If you don't like it, think that roy trying to pick his sword caused him to get an aoo, and thaqt caused him to fail to pick the sword.

EDIT: ii'm not the biggest expert in minmaxing and D&D tactics, but I have to ask, because several people are complining that the oots are acting stupid: what did they do wrong this time? Beside leaving the baclony and going in a secluded place where they could be ambushed, everything else seemed a totally reasonable tactical decision to me.

[sims796]

EDIT: ii'm not the biggest expert in minmaxing and D&D tactics, but I have to ask, because several people are complining that the oots are acting stupid: what did they do wrong this time? Beside leaving the baclony and going in a secluded place where they could be ambushed, everything else seemed a totally reasonable tactical decision to me.

Exactly. To be fair, when it comes to the Linear Guild, they don't really do much wrong to begin with. The Linear group works on suprise alone. Suprise doesn't work unless the victims are completely unaware, and when it happens...the victim is takem by suprise.

Even leaving the balcony to head to said secluded area wasn't a totaly foolish decision. After all, they needed a place to group and work in privacy. They had to focus on the now, and unfortunately, didn't see that Flesh to Stone coming.

[Mutant Sheep]

Remember that when Thog's rage ends, he will be at Roy's mercy!

What? Did we read the same comic? Roy is probably at below 0 right now, I don't think he'd try to surrender if he thought he had a chance.

Edit:
Obviously, when the rage wears off, Roy will give Thog quite a talking-too, causing Thog to regret his prior actions and repent as a Paladin's squire. This has a good chance though.

[sims796]

What? Did we read the same comic? Roy is probably at below 0 right now, I don't think he'd try to surrender if he thought he had a chance.

Obviously, when the rage wears off, Roy will give Thog quite a talking-too, causing Thog to regret his prior actions and repent as a Paladin's squire.

[Ted The Bug]

I see what you mean, and I certainly agree when it comes to wanting at least one straight-up victory against a real enemy (or at least something like Miko's Belkar chase, which was personally one of my favourite moments in the strip) as opposed to a defeat, a recuperation, or a victory only delivered by outside forces. That being said, this arc ain't over yet, and Rich might be taking this somewhere new. Maybe Belkar or even Tarquin get involved? I'm not a huge fan of where this is going (even if it's pretty intense), but my advice would be to wait until you know how it actually ends before fully saying that it's repetitive.

[Leecros]

Exactly. To be fair, when it comes to the Linear Guild, they don't really do much wrong to begin with. The Linear group works on suprise alone. Suprise doesn't work unless the victims are completely unaware, and when it happens...the victim is takem by suprise.

Even leaving the balcony to head to said secluded area wasn't a totaly foolish decision. After all, they needed a place to group and work in privacy. They had to focus on the now, and unfortunately, didn't see that Flesh to Stone coming.

Except that the OotS were completely unaware. Before they saw Thog, they believed that Nale and Thog were killed in the explosion at Azure City. The location where Elan, Haley, and V were ambushed is in the Arena Lobby, not a secluded location and most likely a location that they would have to walk through not much longer after leaving the balcony. By the time they saw Thog in the arena, they were already in the trap.

[zimmerwald1915]

I see what you mean, and I certainly agree when it comes to wanting at least one straight-up victory against a real enemy (or at least something like Miko's Belkar chase, which was personally one of my favourite moments in the strip) as opposed to a defeat, a recuperation, or a victory only delivered by outside forces. That being said, this arc ain't over yet, and Rich might be taking this somewhere new. Maybe Belkar or even Tarquin get involved? I'm not a huge fan of where this is going (even if it's pretty intense), but my advice would be to wait until you know how it actually ends before fully saying that it's repetitive.
How is Tarquin getting involved not having victory "delivered by outside forces"?

[Leecros]

Exactly. To be fair, when it comes to the Linear Guild, they don't really do much wrong to begin with. The Linear group works on suprise alone. Suprise doesn't work unless the victims are completely unaware, and when it happens...the victim is takem by suprise.

Even leaving the balcony to head to said secluded area wasn't a totaly foolish decision. After all, they needed a place to group and work in privacy. They had to focus on the now, and unfortunately, didn't see that Flesh to Stone coming.

Except that the OotS were completely unaware. Before they saw Thog, they believed that Nale and Thog were killed in the explosion at Azure City. The location where Elan, Haley, and V were ambushed is in the Arena Lobby, not a secluded location and most likely a location that they would have to walk through not much longer after leaving the balcony .Of course it's impossible to tell how much time passed between the time they left the balcony and the time they got ambushed, but it could not have been more than a few minutes...By the time they saw Thog in the arena, they were already in the trap.

[Kroozer101]

RULE
OF
COOL
Thog was damn scary there, and it's a friggin stick figure comic!

If you want to justify it in the mechanic, you can think that thog went lucky on a disarm check, or that roy rolled a 1 and that's the result....
after that, hog shoudl win against roy barehanded.
And the part where roy jump on his discarded sword and thog get to him and disarm him again before he get a chance to get up, well, mechanically, it is a big stretch, but real world, i can totally see a figth going like that.
And i always felt that if something works in the real world, the mechanics should be arranged to make it work.
If you don't like it, think that roy trying to pick his sword caused him to get an aoo, and thaqt caused him to fail to pick the sword.

EDIT: ii'm not the biggest expert in minmaxing and D&D tactics, but I have to ask, because several people are complining that the oots are acting stupid: what did they do wrong this time? Beside leaving the baclony and going in a secluded place where they could be ambushed, everything else seemed a totally reasonable tactical decision to me.
And remember: The OOTS DM has been incredibly flexible and accommodating. The odds are very good that he simply house-ruled it.

:roy: I stand up, grab my sword, and charge Thog.

DM: You just got thrown across a gladiatorial arena. By a dude who is distracted by puppies. Your brain just shut down trying to figure this out.

At the very least, Roy would need a Will save to stand up. And a Fortitude save to avoid going completely unconscious from the impact.
At least, that's what I would do.

[sims796]

Except that the OotS were completely unaware. Before they saw Thog, they believed that Nale and Thog were killed in the explosion at Azure City. The location where Elan, Haley, and V were ambushed is in the Arena Lobby, not a secluded location and most likely a location that they would have to walk through not much longer after leaving the balcony. By the time they saw Thog in the arena, they were already in the trap.

Yeah, I know, that's what I said.

Re-reading my post, I'm going to word it differently, as I can see the confusion. I meant the OOTS was the ones suprised, and that the Linear Guild works off of that. So it isn't so much that the Order suddenly become complete morons when they deal with the Guild, it's just that the Guid acts off suprise, and the Order deals with that however they can.

I should have said, "When it comes to the Order dealing with the Linear Guild...". My bad.

[DirtyMcR]

The Order is standard at best. V, Durk, and Hailey are pretty standard. Roy, has a high Int score, because it suits the character. Belkar, is a decidedly bad ranger/barbarian. And PLEASE don't make my talk about Elan. He's the comic relief and does that job quite well.

[Kibble Sage]

EDIT: ii'm not the biggest expert in minmaxing and D&D tactics, but I have to ask, because several people are complining that the oots are acting stupid: what did they do wrong this time? Beside leaving the baclony and going in a secluded place where they could be ambushed, everything else seemed a totally reasonable tactical decision to me.

1. They split up, then split up again. Concentration of force wins fights, dividing loses them.

2. Roy seriously underestimated his opponent, leading him to fail to press a momentary advantage.

3. V's spells and tactics, as usual, stink.

4. Elan making absolutely no use of his spells, at all.

5. Durkon is wandering around like he's on a happy, peaceful sightseeing trip instead of being on hand in case his friends need him since, you know, they're in a murderous despotism crawling with assassins, foes, and people related to Nale.

6. They split up.

7. They split up.

8. They split up (this is a fatally stupid mistake, and it accentuates the effect of all the other mistakes combined. Sure, the Linear Guild split up, too, but they're individually stronger than the OotS. The OotS can't exploit the Linear Guild's mistake at splitting up, because they made the mistake first, and then kept making it [ie V sending Elan away instead of doubling up on Z].)

Probably, more could be thought of, but those will do to go on with.

[Zejety]

Belkar, is a decidedly bad ranger/barbarian.
He isn't your generic ranger but isn't he an irrationally strong fighter (as in combatant)?

[MikelaC1]

I agree with the OP. Its not that I want the Order to win every time without breaking a sweat, but it would be nice to see them win...just once.
Including and ever since the fall of Azure City, the OOTS have been on the most colossal losing streak of all time. Even when they win, once in a while, it merely gets them back to the status they were before, a zero sum game. Its a giant treadmill and its tedious.
And this time, Rich has written himself into a corner. Want to ignore game rules and use the real world, as people are saying about the arena fight? Then fine, Roy is dead. You get slammed by the side of a stone wall as big as Thog is wielding, youre dead. Ohh, he still had HPs left. Then you're using game rules and the whole thing wouldnt have gone down that way. Elan should be dead, he kissed Sabine more than enough times to bring him to zero and even if he didnt, he has to be no better than 2nd-3rd level and theres no way he escapes from N&S who on him right now. And if he dies, then Haley dies. V is not able to beat Z...add it all up and its end of the line without a massive writer cheat.

[Psyren]

:roy: I stand up, grab my sword, and charge Thog.

You couldn't do all that in one round anyway ("stand up" + "grab my sword" both being move actions, leaving you unable to charge afterward), by which point Thog is already charging you, and with his increased speed can clear the arena distance easily.

[skim172]

There is no story without conflict. The hero's have to lose every once in a while or it would get boring. If the story came out with them winning every match why would you read it? there would be no suspense.

Allow me to play devil's advocate:

Is it any less predictable if the heroes lose every match? I kind of understand the OP's point here. It's not just that they lose, but sometimes, their losses seem pretty contrived. Deus ex machina usually works for the protagonist, but the term still applies if it works in reverse.

For every tactic and spell V uses, Z emerges unscathed. V seems confident he can take on Z one-to-one, a kobold comes riding in on a wolf at that precise moment to shoot him down. Blackwing figures out the truth about the imp, and gets involved in a life-or-death chase. Roy pummels Thog handily, Thog demonstrates a superpower previously referenced once only for comedic purposes that now allows him to more or less kill Roy, in a clearly non-comedic setting. Mr. Scruffy walks down a hallway, now he's getting chased by a murderous armed lizard on a hungry wolf and no one can save him.

Of course, there are explanations for all this - we can say that the Linear Guild was just so precisely prepared for this that the Order can't scrabble together a single advantage. But it does kinda seem like all events are conspiring together to entirely leave the Order without a ghost of a chance.

Which, honestly, isn't all that fun. A conflict of ragged heroes against almost impossible odds enthralls us because of the hope that they may attain that improbable prize and we eagerly trace every step of their progress. But when it seems that they have lots of chances and each one is abruptly and unexpectedly slammed shut in our face - it kinda feels like we've been robbed.

And of course, there's always the unpleasant possibility that this will end up in a situation of certain doom, but another unexpected impossible event steps in to save the day, which logically, will feel very disjointed.


Again, however, I'm only playing devil's advocate here. I personally think that these feelings are partially engendered by the fact that we watch these strips one week at a time, and tend to think of them as weekly episodes, each ending in disappointment, when they're actually just one page of a large story. It creates an artificial sense of length for us that likely won't be there if we read this as a single volume.

[Whiffet]

People are upset? Some of you guys don't have faith in Rich's storytelling? You think he doesn't know where he's going with this?... That can't be right. I don't understand.

[Kroozer101]

The Order is standard at best. V, Durk, and Hailey are pretty standard. Roy, has a high Int score, because it suits the character. Belkar, is a decidedly bad ranger/barbarian. And PLEASE don't make my talk about Elan. He's the comic relief and does that job quite well.
What? Hang on.

V is underpowered, if anything. Hir spell choices are... poor. If that.

Durkon is a standard dwarf cleric, I'll give you that. But why is that so awful? He's very good at his job, and he keeps the party going.

Hailey is on the higher side of average. And that's where my diagnosis ends, to avoid sounding pompous.

Belkar is not, in fact, "decidedly bad". He's a stupid-good killing machine. He hurts things quickly. How is being brutally efficient "decidedly bad"?

Elan is far more than comic relief. On the stats side, he's got amazing Charisma. He's a good caster, just misguided about what to pick. And, in combat against those who understand it, he can be very punitive. On the story hand: He drives the plot. He is the reason that Tarquin is more than a minor bad guy, a roadblock. Haley's romantic inclinations towards him ran through several story arcs. He's a major component of all that they do, and OOTS would be a lot less entertaining without him?

Roy has a high INT, good Charisma, "halfway-decent" Wisdom, and a rather consistent combat ability. Beyond that? He's a good role-player. He comes up with crazy ideas and plays true to the character, throwing himself into a horrible (read: quite deadly) duel with Xykon above Azure. Because it's the right thing to do. Stupid? Yes. Badly thought-out? To say the least. A deep and complex moment of roleplay? On so many levels.



And, assume you're right, that my arguments are baseless and easily dispelled. What's the problem with being average? What's so terrible about not min-maxing? Is there something wrong with liking a character who can do more than fight? You seem to think there is, but you never actually say why.

[Sotharsyl]

Don't look at this from such a OOC perspective just look at who Thog and Roy are:

Roy:a extremely gifted individual in a all around sense he has great physical attributes and as that comic pointed out to us great mental attributes.

Now Roy due to his own personality and the way he was raised loathes magic and has a obssesion with proving he can be a effective adventurer without a magic class.

He also has a quite a bit of a ego and constantly reminds people that even tough he doesn't cast spells he's still smart and wise.
What does this lead him to,a fighting stile where he uses his str,dex and con to the maximum but he will only use his int,dex and cha in non-magical ways furthermore he thinks that strategy and tactics are better uses for his int and wis than magic.

In most situations he has gotten enough usage out of his int and wis through strategy that he truly believes this.

Thog has great physical attributes and horrible mental ones this means that in fights he either has to get his strategy from someone else or he can produce just the most basic plans of attack.

Now the third factor is Elan and Nale's Dad he has taken both these men and put them in a situation where strategy is useless you have nothing to work with.

Thog loses nothing really Roy has been reduced to what he has been denning he was his whole life,just a guy with no other options but to swing a stick and for who int is not required.

Thog is used to this being his life Roy is living his worst nightmare,really the only way this would have been worst in Roy's perspective is if the General was a caster,under these situations "Smash" was the only logical conclusion.

Also V has been through the exact type of situation but worse: unable to use his greatest attribute int and power his spells plus he has a devil interested in him.

[Howler Dagger]

i think the people cannot understand that Rich is roleplaying his characters instead of minmaxing. V is trying to be a considerate teammate after the soul splice, so xe had Elan run away knowing that xe couldnt beat Z even with elan, so V allowed Elan a chance of survival. Of course V didnt count on Nale and Sabine. haley understanably wanted to talk about Nale with V and Elan away from tarquin, but of course didnt think Z would return. Thee OOTS isnt(edit, sorry) being dumb here, they are just being people not characters.

[Geech]

Again, however, I'm only playing devil's advocate here. I personally think that these feelings are partially engendered by the fact that we watch these strips one week at a time, and tend to think of them as weekly episodes, each ending in disappointment, when they're actually just one page of a large story. It creates an artificial sense of length for us that likely won't be there if we read this as a single volume.

I think this is probably the best argument against the position, and I will admit that my frustration with the most recent update has probably been fairly rash. I know that previous stories that left me feeling frustrated weren't nearly so bad when I reread the comic. The story with V's family is a great example of that.

[Kibble Sage]

i think the people cannot understand that Rich is roleplaying his characters instead of minmaxing. V is trying to be a considerate teammate after the soul splice, so xe had Elan run away knowing that xe couldnt beat Z even with elan, so V allowed Elan a chance of survival. Of course V didnt count on Nale and Sabine. haley understanably wanted to talk about Nale with V and Elan away from tarquin, but of course didnt think Z would return. Thee OOTS isnt(edit, sorry) being dumb here, they are just being people not characters.

Again, I don't see why competence removes the possibility of being a "person". Are well-trained soldiers "just characters" and only totally incompetent, untrained emergency conscripts "people"? Is total, absolute, inevitable stupidity and incompetence needed to be interesting?

I'll give you an example here. The fight in the Azure City throne room. Xykon and Redcloak were considerably more competent than the Order is -- yet the struggle was still epic and they still essentially lost. It didn't seem any less interesting because those who lost the fight were halfway competent and dangerous -- it made their defeat seem more dramatic and fulfilling. A fight between competent foes, even if the ones we are rooting for lose, it much preferable to watching clowns being pummelled hopelessly.

The Order are total losers, plain and simple. Their decisions are just plain awful and some of them are so dumb that a kindergartner might do better planning them out.

In short, it's frustrating because they're so totally worthless in a fight in practically every way, yet you know that some weird thing is likely to come out of nowhere and snatch their doddering, incompetent bacon out of the fire (see also: Thor vs. Leaky).

I don't mind if they're shown as being dumb as a box of rocks and totally incapable of handling themselves in a fight at all. But in that case, I also want them to have the everliving daylights pounded out of them in no uncertain terms.

It's fine to have flaws -- it's necessary for a story. It's fine for there to be occasional setbacks and defeats. But I don't think that a character needs to be one big unmitigated flaw to be interesting. I mean, if you had a character who wanted to be a military sniper in a book, but was blind, quadruplegic, and can never hit anything that he shoots at by pulling the trigger with his nose, how many times can you read about him missing again, and again, and again, and again, and again, before it starts to drive you nuts?

And it's even worse if he always miraculously makes "the shots that count" despite not being able to see or even aim his rifle. I don't care about the Thor thing because it was funny, but I don't want them to get a free pass out of the situations that their utter idiocy inflicts on them EVERY time, because it gets just as dull as their winning easily every time.

That's the level of personal futility we're reaching with the Order here.

Since it's too late for them to logically win the fight, I want them to lose it -- thoroughly, completely, and fatally. It's fine if they're raised, but they're such irritating clods and hopeless losers that there should be some consequences to being way, way, way ,way in over their heads.

[Armand]

{{Scrubbed}} 'Thinking' like this and leaving may be reasonable while playing a campaign even the others seems enjoying (since nobody have to agree with everyone) yet 'acting' like this and trying to demoralize others not...

Didint like it? Dont read it. You propably dont get paid for it.
Its not your story, its not about you, its not created specially for you, its not connected with you. No one of the OOTS characters is yours. You're just an audience.
If you want to read something that none of main characters get kicked their ass, try to read Drizzt series. Or better, try to read Conan the Barbarian. But I'm not sure if they enough, since even they're losing some minor battles time to time, or losing something important for them.
Its a freaking life. Everybody may lose something, everybody 'will' lose something, and if you want to get away from this truth, try to become a hermit.

[Psyren]

People are upset? Some of you guys don't have faith in Rich's storytelling? You think he doesn't know where he's going with this?... That can't be right. I don't understand.

Agreed. There's always a round of complaints about unfairness when the situation seems hopeless (Haley trapped in Greysky, and V vs. the dragon/Xykon, come immediately to mind.) These are swiftly forgotten once the story moves on.

Even if Roy dies again (I seriously doubt this, but let's say maybe) he's not going to get written out of his own story and Xykon is not going to rule triumphant, proving that the Giant believes being a total bastard is the way to go in life and karma is nonexistent.

There's Deus Ex improbability on both sides.

[Thanatosia]

{{scrubbed}}

The OOTS does win quick and easy victories. But you know what happens when the protaganists get a quick and easy victory? A brief short encounter that does not stick in memory. It's only when the victory is hard won that it becomes memorable.

Remember that time the OOTs came across some Insectoid slavers and wiped them out in like 2 strips with one of their members ripping off the head of the slaver's leader and peeing down his neck?

Remember that time the OOTs ran across a giant worm and easily converted it into a convenient ride within a few panels?

Remember that time Haley got seperated from the rest of the OOTs and slayed a ton of guards surrounding her before she could surrender?

That all happened just within the last book, which is only half done.

But wait you say, those are all encounters the oots overpowered? Why don't they roll over equal opponents? Well, because OOTs are not well minmaxed, because as others have pointed out, they are designed as people, not characters.... so they don't have an easy time rolling over equal level opponents. There is going to be back and forth when the OOTs strugles for a bit but then overcomes (or, /gasp, sometimes loses). Like the Giant Demon on the island that Q summoned.

[Kibble Sage]

{scrubbed quote is scrubbed}'Thinking' like this and leaving may be reasonable while playing a campaign even the others seems enjoying (since nobody have to agree with everyone) yet 'acting' like this and trying to demoralize others not...

Didint like it? Dont read it. You propably dont get paid for it.
Its not your story, its not about you, its not created specially for you, its not connected with you. No one of the OOTS characters is yours. You're just an audience.
If you want to read something that none of main characters get kicked their ass, try to read Drizzt series. Or better, try to read Conan the Barbarian. But I'm not sure if they enough, since even they're losing some minor battles time to time, or losing something important for them.
Its a freaking life. Everybody may lose something, everybody 'will' lose something, and if you want to get away from this truth, try to become a hermit.

Nice job insulting everyone in the thread and taking a personally aggressive stance to people discussing the events in a comic.

You might want to take some of your own advice, step back, relax, take a deep breath, and realize that it isn't a cause for this tirade if people don't like something in a webcomic, rather than it being some life or death thing with your whole life's philosophy, like you seem to be implying.

[zimmerwald1915]

Remember that time the OOTs came across some Insectoid slavers and wiped them out in like 2 strips with one of their members ripping off the head of the slaver's leader and peeing down his neck?

Remember that time the OOTs ran across a giant worm and easily converted it into a convenient ride within a few panels?

Remember that time Haley got seperated from the rest of the OOTs and slayed a ton of guards surrounding her before she could surrender?

That all happened just within the last book, which is only half done.
All illusions created by Girard, of course! :smallwink:


There is going to be back and forth when the OOTs strugles for a bit but then overcomes (or, /gasp, sometimes loses). Like the Giant Demon on the island that Q summoned.
1. It was a devil. 2. It was not necessary, and was in fact counterproductive, to fight it. The devil just wanted to be left alone, and Qarr's instructions were that he wanted "all mortals on this island dead". If they'd ran for the boats and rowed away, the devil, adept as all devils are at twisting contracts, would have had no problem heading back to Hell. As it was, their preoccupation with combating the fiend - a preoccupation bordering on zealotry in the SG's and Durkon's case, and barreling over the border into pure egoism in V's - prevented them from intervening in Kubota's plans on the fleet, and led directly to V's Fall.

[Armand]

Nice job insulting everyone in the thread and taking a personally aggressive stance to people discussing the events in a comic.

You might want to take some of your own advice, step back, relax, take a deep breath, and realize that it isn't a cause for this tirade if people don't like something in a webcomic, rather than it being some life or death thing with your whole life's philosophy, like you seem to be implying.


I didint insult nor taked a 'personally aggresive stance' against everybody in the tread 'that just discussing the events in a comic'.
I was just aiming the attitude in the first post (which I was thinked my inted seems clear since I didint take nobody's words as quote, say nobodys name's for mention, which means I was just answering to topic) which was only about suggesting the OOTS should kick, kill, slaughter everything on their way, and should be awesome as rockstars while doing it in every moment.

And for your last words about 'your whole life's philosophy' things more 'personally aggresive stance' then mines.

[Geech]

I didint insult nor taked a 'personally aggresive stance' against everybody in the tread 'that just discussing the events in a comic'.
I was just aiming the attitude in the first post (which I was thinked my inted seems clear since I didint take nobody's words as quote, say nobodys name's for mention, which means I was just answering to topic) which was only about suggesting the OOTS should kick, kill, slaughter everything on their way, and should be awesome as rockstars while doing it in every moment.

And for your last words about 'your whole life's philosophy' things more 'personally aggresive stance' then mines.

Again, that is clearly NOT the stance taken in the original post. You're really coming across as unreasonably offended.

[King of Nowhere]

plus, the idea that they are poorly sorted and are acting stupid, is actually based on comparison. People saying that they are weak is truly sayiong that they're weaker than the people expressing the opinion.
That applies to any game, and to many things not related to games too.
It don't matter if you're strong or weak. There will always be someone stronger than you who will call you weak, and someone weaker that will call you strong. Those concepts have no real meaning.
So, there's someone here who is apparently good at minmaxing, and he will say the order suck because he could make much better characters. And some tactical genius who says he can think of many better strategies. That don't actually mean the ootsers are dumb. Just because you're good, it don't mean that everyone else is an idiot.
Especailly if you consider the strategy in retrospect, and ignore the perfectly good reasons the characters had to make those decisions at the moment.

[MelTorefas]

When I was reading the comic none of the complaints posted here even occurred to me. My first thought was, "Sweet, an OotS update!". Then I read the comic and loved it. And after reading the comments of the people who take issue with the current strip/storyline... I still love it. I think OotS is the most entertaining webcomic I've ever read.

A great DM (storyteller) can make any campaign (story) amazing, even if it's one that some people would considered cliche or predictable. I once ran a campaign where I had to come up with an underlying plot very quickly (I was taking over for someone else). I came up with a quest to recover orbs of power tied to the classic elements, ala Final Fantasy 1. Probably the most cliched thing I've ever done. The campaign ran off and on for like two years before we had to quit because too many players moved away, and years later the players who are still around still talk about how much they liked the game.

I fully expect this storyline to conclude in a suitably awesome way that will put paid to all these complaints. *nods*

[zimmerwald1915]

plus, the idea that they are poorly sorted and are acting stupid, is actually based on comparison. People saying that they are weak is truly sayiong that they're weaker than the people expressing the opinion.
That applies to any game, and to many things not related to games too.
It don't matter if you're strong or weak. There will always be someone stronger than you who will call you weak, and someone weaker that will call you strong. Those concepts have no real meaning.
So, there's someone here who is apparently good at minmaxing, and he will say the order suck because he could make much better characters. And some tactical genius who says he can think of many better strategies. That don't actually mean the ootsers are dumb. Just because you're good, it don't mean that everyone else is an idiot.
Especailly if you consider the strategy in retrospect, and ignore the perfectly good reasons the characters had to make those decisions at the moment.
Well, all non-Roy members of the Order have already been explicitly called out in-comic as bungling, half-trained, buffoons. By Roy. All that's new is that now Roy, based on in-comic events, has proven himself worthy of the same appelation.

[Sky_Schemer]

Didint like it? Dont read it. You propably dont get paid for it.
Its not your story, its not about you, its not created specially for you, its not connected with you. No one of the OOTS characters is yours. You're just an audience.

Wow. Dude. Calm down.

It is possible to enjoy something as a whole, even if you may not enjoy some of its parts. It is also perfectly normal and acceptable to have a civil discussion about the same, which is pretty much what's going on in this thread.

What we don't need is "love it or leave it" responses. The real world take place between extremes.

[Ya Ta Hey!]

I'm not especially taken with layer after layer of setbacks, and I had the same problem with Book 1 of Erfworld.

As much as I respected Rob's efforts to create a sense of conflict and urgency, the back-and-forth between Parson and Ansom's tactics eventually got overplayed to the point that it was numbing. The story went out of its way to thwart just for the sake of thwarting, I thought, and really seemed to ride roughshod over any sense of plausibility to do it.

To be honest, the constant resetting and setbacks actually detracted from the import of the story; to me, it killed the sense that anything Parson did would succeed on its own merits. There was a good chunk of a year where every masterstroke he made was rendered meaningless, so consistently, that it wasn't even worth worrying about anymore. You just had to accept that "We're saved/screwed" didn't actually mean anything to that effect because, in Erfworld-land, you can completely reverse any situation in 30 seconds flat. Even if its not your turn, or there's just like, six of you against the entire enemy vanguard. The constant 'crying wolf' dragged my attention away from "What does Parson have planned" to "What does Rob Balder have planned?"

Book 2 is much more interesting, and I love Erfworld to death all the same. But, I still read back on that early Battle for Gobwin Knob with a ho-hum mentality. While reading a given page, I'm not in Erfworld, I'm sitting at my computer waiting for everything to turn upside down like an hourglass. I'm meta-storying, the "illusion" isn't being upheld. That's not what you want from fiction :smallamused:

When I see appeals to faith in Rich's mercy rather than faith in so-and-so's capability, its not far from the same dynamic. For all the appeal of conquering the insurmountable, the Order's lovable iconoclasm, and the occasional thrown bone, the haplessness is becoming excessive to the point of hurting suspension of disbelief. I don't really feel like taking anything the Order say or do seriously, because all their progress seems to be coincidence or grasping at straws. Its like, "Whatever, let me know when the rocks fall and crush this Empire of Blood thing, I'm holding out to see that gate." Like I said, that's not what you want from fiction.

[Quellian-dyrae]

What is Roy's big strategic error here?

I'm seeing some things about talking rather than finishing off Thog...but he didn't have the opportunity, going on a turn-by-turn system. Roy full attacked to sunder, spoke as a free action, and then it was Thog's turn.

I think underestimating Thog was mentioned, but there really wasn't an opportunity for that to matter. Within the space of one turn, Roy went from basically the victor to getting tossed around like a ragdoll. He didn't have the chance to perform a foolish action due to underestimation.

His strategies don't seem that bad. First move, go for his sword, exactly what you should do when faced with an unarmed but physically overpowering foe. Action limitations meant he couldn't arm himself before Thog got there to kick the sword away.

His next effort was to try and wail on Thog unarmed. A reasonable response from a man who knows himself to be a competent warrior. His profound statistical disadvantages became quickly apparent.

There seems to me to be an off-panel turn between Roy getting slammed into the wall and Thog's next series of moves. At this point, Roy is cornered by a foe who he can't appreciably hurt, and who has proven quite adept at all manner of combat maneuvers, and who is faster than he is (and even with a C- in Attacks of Opportunity, he probably knows he can't move in that situation without provoking). Frankly, whatever action he might have taken (I'm betting on a total defense myself) was futile.

By his next turn he's pinned beneath Thog's boot. Panel afterwards he isn't, so I'm assuming he spent an entire full attack getting the three Grapple checks necessary to break free. He didn't have actions available afterwards to try anything else, nor could he have while grappled.

I'm not seeing any super-genius strategy here, but neither did it look like bumbling incompetence. Roy took perfectly reasonable actions considering how completely outclassed he was in unarmed combat (Thog having probably three to five times the base damage, more hit points, and probably a four to six point advantage on attack rolls and opposed checks at that stage - maybe even eight to ten points on opposed checks, if the lack of AoOs indicates Improved Combat Maneuver feats on Thog's part), and how much of the battle he spent grappled or prone.

[Kibble Sage]

Well, in my case, I think his errors were mostly made outside the arena, rather than in it.

His first error was refusing a rescue and choosing to remain separated from his supporting team in the arena, where he already said he'd refuse to fight anyway, because of a peculiar notion that "nothing bad could happen" in an insane death-arena where they feed people randomly to allosaurs.

His biggest blunder, though, is in choosing training that prepares him miserably for combat. He's basically deliberately chosen to gimp himself in combat just to spite dear old dad.

That may be good roleplaying, but in the practical sense, it's still a tactical mistake. "Believable decision" doesn't mean "good decision", after all.

[Gift Jeraff]

What "losing streak" are people talking about? The only major losses I can think of are round 2 vs. Miko, the Battle for Azure City, and V's first bout with the ancient black dragon. And in between those there was Roy defeating Fallen Miko, Haley and the Resistance freeing the slaves and Mr. Scruffy, V petrifying the pit fiend and disintegrating Kubota, Haley killing Crystal, and V's Pyrrhic victory (to use Rich's own words) against Xykon. And that's not counting all the minor battles (the huecava, Skullsy, Buggy Lou, the dozens and dozens of aquatic humanoids Qarr charmed, etc.) they won.

Sure, they're not pretty victories, but I still see more wins than losses.

[Kibble Sage]

Order splits up, is partly defeated by the bounty hunters.

Roy and Belkar lose in the tavern.

V loses to Xykon.

Elan loses to Tarquin.

I think there are more, but I'm having a hard time putting my finger on them at the moment. However, they are also failing to achieve even simple goals over and over again, which I think adds to the impression of losing. For example:

-- Slaves are released, then burned alive.
-- Haley's father refuses to be rescued.
-- V ends up getting divorced after saving his family.
-- Order spends a looooooong time wandering around in the desert looking for the gate, which boils down to "we can't find anything".
-- Roy has a chance to escape and refuses, even though he doesn't want to fight and refusing to fight is a ticket to an allosaur gizzard.
-- They only get out of previous Linear Guild fights by things external to their own abilities or actions, pretty much.

I think it's a general sense that they're being frustrated in everything they try recently that is making a stronger impression that they're losing to everyone.

[Ramien]

Kibble, are we reading the same comic? I don't recall there being a clear 'winner' or 'loser' in the tavern brawl, other than Roy and Belkar being arrested for their lack of papers, which could have happened at any point once their papers were asked for.

It made sense for the party to split up originally. They weren't in a hostile environment, each member had their preferred places to search, and sticking together while asking questions is a very good way to make sure that your entire group gets noticed. Circumstances have conspired to keep them apart since then, and each decision to stay separated was grounded in logic - since they didn't know the Linear Guild was alive, they didn't have a reason to fear retribution, and the decision was (rightly) made to keep Tarquin from knowing everything about the party. Roy staying at the gladiator pits, especially after talking with Tarquin, made perfect sense. He didn't know about the Allosaurus or Thog at that point, and given the lack of spellcasters in most gladiator settings, he thought he had a decent chance to get an 'in' with Tarquin if Elan and Haley couldn't pull it off.

Half of your 'defeats' are setbacks, nothing more. Ian refuses to be rescued? They'll break him out later - it's not like his paranoia is going to help them out much at the moment anyways. V lost to Xykon? V got more personal growth in that moment than in the rest of the comic combined, not to mention the rescue of O-Chul means that the Order actually will be going into fights with Xykon partially prepared from now on, or did you forget the conversation between Durkon and V?

The single biggest mistake I've seen the Order make recently based on what they could have known at the time was not getting papers when they entered the city. I'm not sure how they managed to bypass that, actually.

[Mutant Sheep]

Roy and Belkar lose in the tavern.

Say what? Roy just didn't want to kill cops. Even lawful Evil cops. Nobody fought the cops after the bar fight. How did they "lose"? By not going on a cop-killing spree?
Edit: Ninja'd, and by a much larger and comprehensive post too.

[Kibble Sage]

Kibble, are we reading the same comic? I don't recall there being a clear 'winner' or 'loser' in the tavern brawl, other than Roy and Belkar being arrested for their lack of papers, which could have happened at any point once their papers were asked for.

It made sense for the party to split up originally. They weren't in a hostile environment, each member had their preferred places to search, and sticking together while asking questions is a very good way to make sure that your entire group gets noticed. Circumstances have conspired to keep them apart since then, and each decision to stay separated was grounded in logic - since they didn't know the Linear Guild was alive, they didn't have a reason to fear retribution, and the decision was (rightly) made to keep Tarquin from knowing everything about the party. Roy staying at the gladiator pits, especially after talking with Tarquin, made perfect sense. He didn't know about the Allosaurus or Thog at that point, and given the lack of spellcasters in most gladiator settings, he thought he had a decent chance to get an 'in' with Tarquin if Elan and Haley couldn't pull it off.

Half of your 'defeats' are setbacks, nothing more. Ian refuses to be rescued? They'll break him out later - it's not like his paranoia is going to help them out much at the moment anyways. V lost to Xykon? V got more personal growth in that moment than in the rest of the comic combined, not to mention the rescue of O-Chul means that the Order actually will be going into fights with Xykon partially prepared from now on, or did you forget the conversation between Durkon and V?

The single biggest mistake I've seen the Order make recently based on what they could have known at the time was not getting papers when they entered the city. I'm not sure how they managed to bypass that, actually.

I advise you to read what I wrote again, considering that these are not, in my opinion, defeats, and are reasons I'm giving why it seems to people why they've been defeated more than they actually have. And I made that quite explicit in my post.

Eh, why bother, people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. You're right, I'm an idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about, the order wins everywhere all the time, and nobody has a right to an opinion other than to just cheer constantly. They're tactically perfect even when they spread out all over so they can be picked off one by one, and it's impossible for them to do any better than they do, which is always perfect.

Carry on.

[Mutant Sheep]

The order wins everywhere all the time, and nobody has a right to an opinion other than to just cheer constantly.
Carry on.

But, but...what? Who was saying that? It seems that all complaints are that they should have expected the Linear Guild to jump out and kill them. Everything looks dumb in retrospect.
Nice sarcasm

[Ramien]

I advise you to read what I wrote again, considering that these are not, in my opinion, defeats, and are reasons I'm giving why it seems to people why they've been defeated more than they actually have. And I made that quite explicit in my post.

Eh, why bother, people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. You're right, I'm an idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about, the order wins everywhere all the time, and nobody has a right to an opinion other than to just cheer constantly. They're tactically perfect even when they spread out all over so they can be picked off one by one, and it's impossible for them to do any better than they do, which is always perfect.

Carry on.
Perhaps you should read what I'm posting as well. You've listed those as 'tactical failings' of the order and saying they deserve to be defeated for being idiots. You've yet to give any information that says why splitting up in what should have been a peaceful town was a tactical error. They had not seen any signs saying there was a bounty for Nale, so they didn't know Elan needed to be careful. They didn't know Nale was even around, so why should they have been worried about that? They're suffering the effects of being split up because the LG is good at ambushing and sneak attacks, and the Order's plans can be called overly clever, but I'd hardly call them incompetent.

I never called you an idiot or said the Order always wins or have been perfect in any way. They've made plenty of mistakes in hindsight, and anyone who didn't think V was screwing up badly when attacking Xykon wasn't paying attention. But good things came out of that mistake, which is why it doesn't add to the general impression of losing that you seem to perceive.

I just don't see the recent events as having been one long series of defeats, since I see a lot of progress being made in addition to the individual setbacks, which why I asked if we were reading the same comic. There's bad things happening because the group was unprepared, but the situation is far from hopeless.

I'd appreciate it if in the future you tried to avoid putting words in my mouth. If you feel I misinterpreted your posts, I apologize, but when you call the Order total losers, then people saying they had decent reasons for what they did is not the same as saying that everything they do is perfect.

[Mutant Sheep]

I never called you an idiot or said the Order always wins or have been perfect in any way. They've made plenty of mistakes in hindsight, and anyone who didn't think V was screwing up badly when attacking Xykon wasn't paying attention. But good things came out of that mistake, which is why it doesn't add to the general impression of losing that you seem to perceive.

Ok, I think I wont post anything here anymore. You keep saying everything I say, but better.
And usually faster too :smalltongue:

[Adeptus]

What? What's so hard to understand about Thog knocking Roy over so suddenly and hard that Roy loses his grip on his sword?
Zevox
Because that's not what happens. Roy's sword goes flying just because Thog rages. There is no attack. Such things are often done in comics for visual emphasis, and it rarely means that the items are actually lost or dropped. Here it happens literally, with no actual reason and Roy doesn't really get any chance to recover from it.

It's a total rip.

[Adeptus]

Allow me to play devil's advocate:
Of course, there are explanations for all this - we can say that the Linear Guild was just so precisely prepared for this that the Order can't scrabble together a single advantage. But it does kinda seem like all events are conspiring together to entirely leave the Order without a ghost of a chance.

Which, honestly, isn't all that fun. A conflict of ragged heroes against almost impossible odds enthralls us because of the hope that they may attain that improbable prize and we eagerly trace every step of their progress. But when it seems that they have lots of chances and each one is abruptly and unexpectedly slammed shut in our face - it kinda feels like we've been robbed.
Well said.

[FujinAkari]

Because that's not what happens. Roy's sword goes flying just because Thog rages. There is no attack. Such things are often done in comics for visual emphasis, and it rarely means that the items are actually lost or dropped. Here it happens literally, with no actual reason and Roy doesn't really get any chance to recover from it.

It's a total rip.

Uh... no?

Its pretty clear that Thog got up and smashed Roy across the face when he started raging... that is what caused Roy to go flying back and why Roy dropped his sword.

Roy spontainiously flying across the arena for no reason is utterly not-sensical.

[Mc. Lovin']

There is no story without conflict. The hero's have to lose every once in a while or it would get boring. If the story came out with them winning every match why would you read it? there would be no suspense.

In addition, a story in which the heroes never win is also quite frustrating, which I think is the point the OP is trying to make

[Drascin]

So...you want the comic to have nothing but pushover enemies and be boring?

That... is a really, really unfair way to put words in someone's mouth, and probably a false dichotomy to boot. A measure of competence and making defeats be close instead of continuous curbstomps does not mean wanting perfect invincible heroes.

Personally, I came to terms a while ago with the fact that the Order is probably one of the least competent adventuring groups in D&D, and that that's where the comedy comes from. But I can see how it'd annoy people actually invested in the characters to see them never catch a break.

[Klear]

Personally, I came to terms a while ago with the fact that the Order is probably one of the least competent adventuring groups in D&D, and that that's where the comedy comes from. But I can see how it'd annoy people actually invested in the characters to see them never catch a break.

Yeah.. I've read the whole comic for the first time not long ago and I had the feeling that they were getting much more competent lately. It's depressing to see them slip to ineffectiveness, though my impression is that they have mostly bad lucky lately.

Other than that, I'm beginning to fear that they will need some sudden outside help and I'd hate if it felt too much like deus ex machina. Elan escaping Nale and Sabine gave me hope. Roy getting stomped not so much.

BTW, would it be a stretch if Enor and Gannji came back and rescued Roy from bloodlusting Thog? I think I could live with that outcome.

[zimmerwald1915]

BTW, would it be a stretch if Enor and Gannji came back and rescued Roy from bloodlusting Thog? I think I could live with that outcome.
Yes it would. What reason would they have to put themselves at risk for a human they don't particularly like, and who landed them in prison in the first place?

[FujinAkari]

Yeah.. I've read the whole comic for the first time not long ago and I had the feeling that they were getting much more competent lately. It's depressing to see them slip to ineffectiveness, though my impression is that they have mostly bad lucky lately.

That's the thing... and I guess I just see it differently than others...

If you're fighting an enemy whom you weren't prepared for, who has -specifically- desinged its strategy to beat you, then being beaten doesn't make you ineffective...

The LG are recurring villains and, while Nale tends to destroy himself through over-complicated strategems, his plans -are- actually quite well-thought out and effective, he just seems to plan to do X and not plan beyond X.

Encounter 1: "I need to trick the Order into getting the amulet for me." Complete success, but he had no strategy beyond that.
Encounter 2: "I need to isolate Elan so I can infiltrate the Order." Complete success, but he didn't plan for what Elan would do after the replacement.
Encounter 3: If his plan, this time, is "Defeat the Order," then they're in a lot of trouble :)

[Klear]

Yes it would. What reason would they have to put themselves at risk for a human they don't particularly like, and who landed them in prison in the first place?

Hmm.. I was thinking maybe they noticed it was Belkar who saved them, but I see that there's no chance of that.

[Kurald Galain]

Any time the Order encounters the Linear Guild in anything resembling a fair fight, the Order only wins by "cheating" or deus ex machina; this is not a new thing.

Let's see.

The first time, Roy routed Nale; Elan defeated Thog; Haley defeated Sabine; Belkar defeated Yikyik; and Vaarsuvius used a loophole on Zz'dtri. That's four fair fights, except that Roy and Elan switched (which was Nale's idea, oops!)

The second time, Durkon defeated Leeky; Roy defeated Sabine + Pompey; Belkar defeated Yokyok; Elan failed against Nale + Thog; Vaarsuvius failed against Leeky; and Haley tied against Leeky's familiar. That's three fair fights in favor of the OOTS, and one against (N+T vs Elan is not fair).

The second-and-a-halfth time, Elan defeated Thog; Vaarsuvius defeated Nale; and Haley + Durkon defeated Sabine. That's two fair fights in favor of the OOTS, and one unfair fight.

Not a bad score, huh?

[Psyren]

Let's see.

The first time, Roy routed Nale; Elan defeated Thog; Haley defeated Sabine; Belkar defeated Yikyik; and Vaarsuvius used a loophole on Zz'dtri. That's four fair fights, except that Roy and Elan switched (which was Nale's idea, oops!)

They only got to fight at all because of a pre-ordained natural 20 on impossible odds. AKA, DM fiat. And summoning lawyers to defeat Z was hardly a fair fight.


The second time, Durkon defeated Leeky;

THOR beat him actually, again by DM fiat.


Belkar defeated Yokyok

Fiat again.


The second-and-a-halfth time, Elan defeated Thog; Vaarsuvius defeated Nale; and Haley + Durkon defeated Sabine. That's two fair fights in favor of the OOTS, and one unfair fight.

The inn fight I'll grant you; that was all the Order, and perfectly executed.

Not saying the thread is warranted, and as the fiat in all of the above scenarios was funny it naturally trumps the rules. But providence has played a large part in the Order's continued existence, and I can sympathize with folks getting frustrated by that.

[Shatteredtower]

Because that's not what happens. Roy's sword goes flying just because Thog rages. There is no attack. Such things are often done in comics for visual emphasis, and it rarely means that the items are actually lost or dropped. Here it happens literally, with no actual reason and Roy doesn't really get any chance to recover from it.

If things had been played by the book, we'd have had Thog rage and then disarm Roy. Being disarmed himself, the rules would then allow him to arm himself with Roy's weapon automatically. At that point, Roy would be at a complete disadvantage, as Thog has a better Strength score than him even when he's not raging. I doubt Roy has either the Improved Disarm or Unarmed Strike feats to help him out here.

In other words, Thog kicking the sword into the stands winds up cutting Roy a bit of a break, even if it still leaves him heavily outmatched. What we're left with instead of a boring, limited-by-the-rules beatdown is a more cinematic turnabout. At times like this, one can only ask, "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?"

Truth be told, I think we're witnessing Thog's last hurrah. It just wouldn't feel right to say good-bye to him until we got one look at what he could really do if allowed to cut loose against someone of Roy's level. Up until now, any fight with him has been almost entirely played for comedy value.

Having Roy or any of his allies (Belkar might be an exception) kill him off wasn't likely to be funny. If it's going to be done, it's proably best to do it under circumstances in which everyone involved, including the readers, has to treat Thog as the deadly serious threat we vaguely acknowledge he can be.

If he's got to go, at least he got to tell Roy to shut up first. Hero or not, the man needs to hear that sometimes.

[Snowfall]

Which, honestly, isn't all that fun. A conflict of ragged heroes against almost impossible odds enthralls us because of the hope that they may attain that improbable prize and we eagerly trace every step of their progress. But when it seems that they have lots of chances and each one is abruptly and unexpectedly slammed shut in our face - it kinda feels like we've been robbed.

And of course, there's always the unpleasant possibility that this will end up in a situation of certain doom, but another unexpected impossible event steps in to save the day, which logically, will feel very disjointed.

Again, however, I'm only playing devil's advocate here. I personally think that these feelings are partially engendered by the fact that we watch these strips one week at a time, and tend to think of them as weekly episodes, each ending in disappointment, when they're actually just one page of a large story. It creates an artificial sense of length for us that likely won't be there if we read this as a single volume.

Nicely written, and I think your last point makes a lot of sense.

Similar to the OP, my reaction to the last comic was to take a break from OotS for a while. From a story arc perspective, I find reading lots of "Empire Strikes Back" moments to be frustrating, generally because 1) I'm really invested in the main characters and 2) being a web comic, resolution of the story takes a while.

What the fight with Thog does setup though, are some major character development opportunities for Roy that make him more competent as a fighter and a leader overall. Perhaps more accepting of other people's strengths?

However, I was hoping that getting killed would have done that for him already...

[King of Nowhere]

Personally, I came to terms a while ago with the fact that the Order is probably one of the least competent adventuring groups in D&D, and that that's where the comedy comes from.

I don't know what kind of D&D groups you hang up with. In my experience, the vast majority of D&D players are quite ignorant in the mechanics. They barely, if at all, know what their characters are supposed to do. Powergamer knowing the minutiae of the rules and getting the best out of their characters are the exception. I'm probably the most skilled of the D&D player i knew (a couple of dozens), and I couldn't use wizard spells any better that V did before his caracther development.

Anyway, back to topic, I don't think the oots is suffering more drawbacks that the heroes do in any book. I think some poeple are overreacting to it because they see this as a D&D campaign, and in those campaigns the heroes never, or very rarely, suffer drawbacks. Losing a figth is almost unconceivable, mostly because the dm will have big troubles in organizing such a figth that would not result in tpk at the wrong roll of dices.
Put in the fact that they know (or they think they know) how to avoid those setbacks, you can easily have people reacting like that.
As i recall, there's been a thread like this every time the order was defeated or stalled.
MAkes me think, every few months there is alsso a thread saying that the plot is going nowhere, but now I haven't seen one of those in a while...

[Psyren]

Truth be told, I think we're witnessing Thog's last hurrah. It just wouldn't feel right to say good-bye to him until we got one look at what he could really do if allowed to cut loose against someone of Roy's level. Up until now, any fight with him has been almost entirely played for comedy value.

Having Roy or any of his allies (Belkar might be an exception) kill him off wasn't likely to be funny. If it's going to be done, it's proably best to do it under circumstances in which everyone involved, including the readers, has to treat Thog as the deadly serious threat we vaguely acknowledge he can be.

If he's got to go, at least he got to tell Roy to shut up first. Hero or not, the man needs to hear that sometimes.

Seriously, this. One of Thog's more polarizing elements is that his rampant murder was always played for laughs. This is the first time he's murdered someone while actually pissed off, and he's also being completely brutal to someone who has given up on fighting him. This is our first time seeing Thog's true nature, and is no doubt intended by the Giant for all his fans to realize just who - or what - they've been backing all this time.

I think the entire LG is nearing a send-off, though perhaps the core (Nale and Sabine) will get a truly last hurrah later. And I expect Sabine to betray Nale in the end; what is his lifespan compared to hers, a blip? She has every reason to believe she can replace him with enough eons.

[kanachi]

I have to say that I also initially felt frustrated by yet another empire strikes back moment, especially as it happened to Roy (who I really feel needs a break).

However, perhaps this is the point. We have to remember that when we watch the Empire Strikes Back now we can all instantly pop in Return of the Jedi and get that warm “the good guys win” feeling back right away. At the very we are aware of the third film so know that karma will come down hard on the bad guys in the end. However it important to know that this was not the case when the film first was shown as no one had seen its sequel, thus the emotions of the viewer walking away from the experience are “of the moment” not reflective of the piece in its totality.

The same could be said of the end of The Wrath of Khan. That was a downer ending for sure.

I guess what I’m saying is that I think we are coming to an end of the Empire Strikes Back part of the story now simply because a good number of us (as proved by the existence of this thread) feel saturated by its content. The giant is no fool and if you read one of his comics as a unit you will see how surprisingly well passed they are, thus is think he knows that we are beginning to feel this way and soon it will be time for something akin to the big “sit around a table and talk ourselves back into competence whilst also hashing out any personal misgivings” scene (Serenity springs to mind here).

So my point put simply is this, the mere fact a number of readers feel this way spells the end of this emotion style of storytelling is at hand. Not because the giant panders to what we want but because he is smart enough to know how, when and why we will want it.

[kanachi]

I don't know what kind of D&D groups you hang up with. In my experience, the vast majority of D&D players are quite ignorant in the mechanics. They barely, if at all, know what their characters are supposed to do. Powergamer knowing the minutiae of the rules and getting the best out of their characters are the exception. I'm probably the most skilled of the D&D player i knew (a couple of dozens), and I couldn't use wizard spells any better that V did before his caracther development.

I just wanted to say that i also feel this way. I'm a total noob in many ways when it comes to dnd rules and yet i'm still probably the "best" powergamer in my group simply because i know the rules and dont simply ask the dm "what do you think?" or "is this a good idea?" or even "can i do something like this?"

[Ramien]

That's the thing... and I guess I just see it differently than others...

If you're fighting an enemy whom you weren't prepared for, who has -specifically- desinged its strategy to beat you, then being beaten doesn't make you ineffective...

The LG are recurring villains and, while Nale tends to destroy himself through over-complicated strategems, his plans -are- actually quite well-thought out and effective, he just seems to plan to do X and not plan beyond X.

Encounter 1: "I need to trick the Order into getting the amulet for me." Complete success, but he had no strategy beyond that.
Encounter 2: "I need to isolate Elan so I can infiltrate the Order." Complete success, but he didn't plan for what Elan would do after the replacement.
Encounter 3: If his plan, this time, is "Defeat the Order," then they're in a lot of trouble :)
It's hard to say what Nale's plan is this time around. We know Thog is unaware of any plans, and I doubt Nale knew ahead of time that Roy would get arrested, so Thog beating all nine layers of unholy hell out of Roy is undoubtedly a side bonus, but not a directly planned for event. Nale had no way of knowing which gate the Order would be going to first, and he probably only learned of their presence here shortly after their arrival, so it's unlikely he's got a lot of long-range plans regarding the Order in place at the moment.

He may have known the Order was in town before Elan got captured by the bounty hunters, but not much earlier. That leaves him with three or four days to plan. With Sabine in her guard disguise and Z in his guise as an ambassador, they'd at least have plenty of knowledge of the Order's whereabouts and actions. I don't think Nale's dumb enough to try and replace Elan again in an attempt to get close enough to Tarquin to try and backstab him with a poisoned blade, but it's within the realm of possibility. He's not after destroying the entire Order directly, unless it's with an overly complicated death trap, or else he would have had killed Elan instead of having Sabine 'remind him of his current bind.' Killing everyone but Elan is a possibilty, although I think Sabine would have plans on how to kill Haley herself.

I'm going to assume there's some ridiculously complicated plan involving Girard's Gate. We know that moving on the Gates was Nale's plan once he left Azure City, the IFCC sent Qarr to help Z out, and I don't see Nale as coming back near his father unless he's looking for the Gate, or finally has the perfect revenge planned. My current best guess would be something along the lines of "kill all the Order but Elan and Haley, put some terrible threat over Haley, and force Elan to work for them until he's outlived his usefulness." Or Nale's improvising, which is a rather scary thought.

[Kurald Galain]

They only got to fight at all because of a pre-ordained natural 20 on impossible odds. AKA, DM fiat.
No, that's the power of story. There was a prophecy and foreshadowing, not just an ad hoc decision.


And summoning lawyers to defeat Z was hardly a fair fight.
That's why I said "loophole".


THOR beat him actually, again by DM fiat.
Thor was not the one who grew to giant size and hammered the crap out of that druid.


Fiat again.
Why? That's just a clever plan. It is inherent in the world in OOTS that kobolds only exist to be slaughtered by adventurers. Adventurers know this. So of course a kobold in a human city is going to be in danger.

Mainly the OOTS needs to stop splitting up, they work better as a team. I think that's going to be the moral of this conflict (so far, Thog defeated Roy; Zz'dtri defeated Haley; V against Zz'dtri and Yukyuk is not a fair fight, but V already neutralized Yukyuk; and Elan vs Nale and Sabine is not a fair fight either, but Elan cleverly neutralized Sabine long enough to escape).

[FujinAkari]

He may have known the Order was in town before Elan got captured by the bounty hunters, but not much earlier. That leaves him with three or four days to plan.

Disagree with you here. It is -very- likely he knew they were coming this way, he presumably learned -of- the gates while pretending to be Elan and, while we aren't shown it, the fact that Xykon will come within 1000 feet of this gate before the other means Roy -knew- he wouldn't be completely defeated at Azure City, so they likely had a plan to come here after the battle anyway.

Even without that, there is a strong possibility the scrying eye seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) is Z's (it is his exact shade of magic, anyway...)

[King of Nowhere]

I noticed a little detail that will make Roy's loss of weapon more beliavable. You can notice in the second-to-last panel in strip 695 that Roy believes the figth is over, and he is wiping his forehead, holding the sword with one hand. Clearly he expected thog to be defeated, didn't expected a reaction (so no aoo for him) and had only a tenous grip on his sword (probably earning him a circumstance penalty to rresist disarm).

[sims796]

Thor was not the one who grew to giant size and hammered the crap out of that druid.

Not to mention Durkon expected that to happen with the thunderbolt. (I found it hilarious that the thunderclap didn't destroy everything within a 4 mile radius, but Gods can do what they want)

I think the issue that I and others tend to have is that when it comes to the Linear Guild, the Order needs outside help to ultimately end the conflict. If not for that natural 20, they would have been dead. If not for Julio, Haley would be dead.

However, it isn't as if the Order are truly incompetent. They use their good fortune to clean up good. Roy realized what his father's message meant; if not for that, then yeah, bye bye Order. Elan defeated Nale himself, personally.

Still, it'll be nice if nothing comes to help them. I wish that they wouldn't always be at such a disadvantage, even though it makes sense (
it's an ambush, you're supposed to be at a disadvantage.

[Porthos]

I have to say that I also initially felt frustrated by yet another empire strikes back moment, especially as it happened to Roy (who I really feel needs a break).

However, perhaps this is the point. We have to remember that when we watch the Empire Strikes Back now we can all instantly pop in Return of the Jedi and get that warm “the good guys win” feeling back right away. At the very we are aware of the third film so know that karma will come down hard on the bad guys in the end. However it important to know that this was not the case when the film first was shown as no one had seen its sequel, thus the emotions of the viewer walking away from the experience are “of the moment” not reflective of the piece in its totality.

If RotJ was a webcomic, I would only guess at the howls of outrage from fandom when the Emperor was giving his little "education lesson" to Luke. :smallwink:

Or when Han and Leia was captured for that matter.

I guess what I am saying is that even in RotJ there were moments where it looked like Teh Heores would be completely defeated.

[Ramien]

Disagree with you here. It is -very- likely he knew they were coming this way, he presumably learned -of- the gates while pretending to be Elan and, while we aren't shown it, the fact that Xykon will come within 1000 feet of this gate before the other means Roy -knew- he wouldn't be completely defeated at Azure City, so they likely had a plan to come here after the battle anyway.

Even without that, there is a strong possibility the scrying eye seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) is Z's (it is his exact shade of magic, anyway...)

I'm betting the scrying eye is one of Girard's allies, who had to scry the area so they could see who won the bet. There's no reason for Z to know to scry that spot at that point in time. It could be foreshadowing, true, but even that would only give Nale a bit more advance warning - and Thog would have already been in the arena at that point.

The point about the Oracle is a valid one, though, but that leads me to think that Nale, who said he wanted to avoid sharing too much of the spotlight, would have made a beeline for Kraagor's gate in order to take it over without much interference. Especially since in the aftermath of Azure City, he wouldn't have known how long it would take the Order to get to the Western Continent. I could be wrong and Nale may have just laid low while creating a web of backup and contingency plans, since he does have some prior knowledge of the area.

[iBear]

I don't know why people are so hung up on the numbers and strict rule interpretations. OotS is NOT a D&D game. It's a story set in a world based on D&D.

So yes, Thog can trounce Roy like this because that's the story the author wants to tell, not because the author is exercising his right as DM to fudge the rules.

[FujinAkari]

I don't know why people are so hung up on the numbers and strict rule interpretations. OotS is NOT a D&D game. It's a story set in a world based on D&D.

Hmmm, I dunno, possibly because 'The action is realistic recognizable, and believable' makes for a cornerstone for the action than 'God did it.'

The most important element in a story is believability and character investment, its impossible for us to invest in a character when the actions don't make sense to us.

That said, I find it entirely believable that Roy was taken offguard and has a hard time fighting back, unarmed, against a raging Thog.


Even with that, though, very few people seem to be complaining that the fight isn't realistic, I am hearing more complaints of "I want the good guys to win!"

[G-Man Graves]

Thor was not the one who grew to giant size and hammered the crap out of that druid.

Well, technically, he did make Durkon that size, given that he is what Durkon derives his powers from. End Nitpick.

And I have mixed feelings on the whole Weather Control thing. On one hand, clever way to overcome the enemy's advantage. On the other, no Durkon didn't beat Leeky. Let's see him try to take the druid on when he still has his trees.



Why? That's just a clever plan. It is inherent in the world in OOTS that kobolds only exist to be slaughtered by adventurers. Adventurers know this. So of course a kobold in a human city is going to be in danger.



This is true. That was probably the cleverest move that Belkar pulled in the whole comic.

And while talking about Belkar, why do people feel that his build is completely unrealistic in terms of kill count. The only time he is a death machine is when surrounded by low level, and hence low hit dice foes. Hence, his build of getting a load of attacks at his (probably) moderate to high strength is perfectly reasonable. When he rages (while not dramatic as Thog), it boosts his strength even more. Perfectly reasonable.

[KingofMadCows]

What's up with all this talk of DM fiat? They're called jokes.

Durkon could have defeated Leaky by throwing down a blade barrier to keep him and the trees at bay, dispelling their magic protection, healing V so they could blast Leaky.

Belkar could have defeated Yokyok by oh I don't know, running out of the city and then kill him.

However, none of that would have been funny.

[kanachi]

If RotJ was a webcomic, I would only guess at the howls of outrage from fandom when the Emperor was giving his little "education lesson" to Luke. :smallwink:

Or when Han and Leia was captured for that matter.

I guess what I am saying is that even in RotJ there were moments where it looked like Teh Heores would be completely defeated.

Good point thought I think the bad guys are winning moments in both these movies are tonally different. Mainly due to classical film heroism conventions and time placement.

When the emperor is blasting Luke with force lightning near the end of the movie we know that this is, by the laws of convention, the big bad guys last hurrah before he is toasted. If Luke had fought him earlier in the movie when his heroes journey had not been completed we also know that neither of them would have perished (though most likely the hero would have been soundly beaten).

In comparison the moment when the frozen body of Han is carted away by a bounty hunter who is feared across the galaxy occurs at the end of the mid way movie when all the protagonists are in the “twelve labours of Hercules” part of their respective heroic journeys.

However it’s also important to note that though the film ends with him being taken away we also get shown that the heroes though defeated are resolved to right these wrongs. They have survived probably their greatest trial, the trial of defeat. This signals a tidal shift in the momentum of the following movie and its moments.

I think we are about 20-40 strips away from this shift in the OOTS. The heroes need to resolve (or at least agree to stow) their personal differences with one another, talk tactically about the future but most importantly overcome the doubts and insecurities their recent failings and the quest itself has put upon them. They must want to win and believe they can win. Hence my belief that we will get a serenity style table talk dressing down and building up of the group.

[Killer Angel]

Can we please get past the whole "The Order sucks and can't competently fight off any of their enemies" theme? It's really annoying.


We can get past, but this won't change the fact that they act almost incompetently, despite their high level.

[Adeptus]

We can get past, but this won't change the fact that they act almost incompetently, despite their high level.

I disagree. If anything they act much more like real people than some soulless powergamer's D&D characters. That's a very good thing, and a powergamed D&D campaign isn't much of a roleplaying game anyway, much less a good story.

[Killer Angel]

I disagree. If anything they act much more like real people than some soulless powergamer's D&D characters. That's a very good thing, and a powergamed D&D campaign isn't much of a roleplaying game anyway, much less a good story.

Ah, but i'm not saying that I don't like it or that isn't a good story.
In media, many times we see competent peoples acting not in the best way. For example, the "sneaking" of the commandos' squad in The Rock: we have a bunch of expert soldiers outsmarted by their enemies and falling in a deadly trap.
It was a great story and I enjoyed it, but the basic fact is: in that occasion, they acted incompetently (a necessary fact to set the stage for the rest of the film).
The same for the Order, I think. From a narrative PoV i like it, but their supposed efficiency is somehow lacking.

[Kurald Galain]

I think "incompetent" is too negative a word here; something like "suboptimal" would sound better, because they aren't that bad. The Three Stooges are incompetent (by design, of course).

[FujinAkari]

We can get past, but this won't change the fact that they act almost incompetently, despite their high level.

I just need to point out that there still hasn't been a good answer to the question 'what, exactly, has the Order done which is incompetent in this scenario?'

[Psyren]

Thor was not the one who grew to giant size and hammered the crap out of that druid.

If said druid had still had his mega-buffed Treant squad, Durkon would have been creamed. So yes, fiat.

I'm not sayin it wasn't funny fiat, just that I can understand the folks that are a bit frustrated that there aren't more wholly legitimate (rules-wise*) victories for the Order.

*rule zero notwithstanding

[Killer Angel]

I think "incompetent" is too negative a word here; something like "suboptimal" would sound better, because they aren't that bad. The Three Stooges are incompetent (by design, of course).

Fair enough, I suppose.


I just need to point out that there still hasn't been a good answer to the question 'what, exactly, has the Order done which is incompetent in this scenario?'

For a starter: leaving two OotS members in jail and going to an arena fight, only to buy some time and hoping to get some info for their quest, means you're counting on luck: too many things can go wrong.

Now, the current errors (obviously IMO):
Elan, Haley and V. knowing about the linear guild and still letting the LG them to take them off guard.
In a critical moment (arena fight), Durkon wasn't with them and they almost don't care 'til it's too late.
They're past the simple "don't split the party": every OotS character is now by itself; and Elan separating from V. it's a suicidal move.
V. casting Forcecage on a wizard? Even when you have poor options, you shouldn't use the obviously wrong one.
Roy relaxing during a fight only 'cause he got the advantage, it's a mistake that could be made by a beginner.

That said, it makes perfect sense in the story: they were overconfident, and they're paying the price.

[FujinAkari]

For a starter: leaving two OotS members in jail and going to an arena fight, only to buy some time and hoping to get some info for their quest, means you're counting on luck: too many things can go wrong.

This one I'll give you, although frankly the likelyhood of running into a legitimate challenge for a 15th level fighter was extremely low.


Elan, Haley and V. knowing about the linear guild and still letting the LG them to take them off guard.

I don't see them being flatfooted, V responds immediately and decisively. It seems like he -was- expecting an attack, but they needed to get to Durkon as well (see below)


In a critical moment (arena fight), Durkon wasn't with them and they almost don't care 'til it's too late.

How is the arena fight critical? Even if Roy loses the one deciding whether he lives or dies is Elan's dad. Despite reservations, Tarquin still seems to care about his son and is unlikely to kill his friends for no reason.


They're past the simple "don't split the party": every OotS character is now by itself; and Elan separating from V. it's a suicidal move.

What, precisely, is Elan going to do if he just stands on the ground and looks up at the Wizard Duel? You can't critisize them for not caring to get Durkon and also critisize them for caring enough to go and get Durkon :P


V. casting Forcecage on a wizard? Even when you have poor options, you shouldn't use the obviously wrong one.

Actually, that is a ploy which I think should have worked. Up until recently V -only- used blaster spells, so expecting Z might not have prepared to escape from a type of magic you've never used before when he prepares explicitly for you is a pretty good bet.


Roy relaxing during a fight only 'cause he got the advantage, it's a mistake that could be made by a beginner.

Relaxing has absolutely nothing to do with the success or failure of a disarm check :P Though, seriously, this one I'll give you as well... although I'll also note that professional atheletes make this mistake -all the time-

[Killer Angel]

I don't see them being flatfooted, V responds immediately and decisively. It seems like he -was- expecting an attack, but they needed to get to Durkon as well (see below)


Well, they were talking. The only one worried for a possible attack was Haley.


How is the arena fight critical? Even if Roy loses the one deciding whether he lives or dies is Elan's dad. Despite reservations, Tarquin still seems to care about his son and is unlikely to kill his friends for no reason.


mmm... the moment was critical only from a "point of readers' metaknowledge", so I'll give this one. :smallsmile:


What, precisely, is Elan going to do if he just stands on the ground and looks up at the Wizard Duel? You can't critisize them for not caring to get Durkon and also critisize them for caring enough to go and get Durkon :P


Actually, that is a ploy which I think should have worked. Up until recently V -only- used blaster spells, so expecting Z might not have prepared to escape from a type of magic you've never used before when he prepares explicitly for you is a pretty good bet.


At that point, Durkon IMO was no more the priority. A (probably buffed) enemy is attacking you and you're not ready? Fall back. Fly / teleport as fast as you can to Tarquin, or to Roy, stopping the arena fight. Regroup and recover strenght, don't further divide your already weakened resources.

[cheesecake]

It all comes down to the Roy is worthless. Roy constantly thinks he is better than the average fighter because he went to fighter "school". Thog is dumb as a brick, but in combat Thog is going to beat the dog poop out of Roy. Hands down, every time. Straight on fight.

But then again, I hate Roy and would love to see him eaten by something large and then that said monster poop out Roy turds. Which I would sit and giggle about for many hours.

[rekuu]

You know how its always hard to find a diamond for the res spell? Where is V getting her rubies from for all those force cages?

[zero]

Well, I am really not annoyed that Roy lost it against Thog. Dying once apparently did nothing to curb his unjustified cockiness. Perhaps second time is the charm...

But I am really having trouble stomaching the "flying sword" thing. Seriously, wtf was that about? Roy losing his sword was the singe pivotal event in the fight, and AFAIK it absolutely can't be explained within the D&D word. Seriously, an unarmed disarm against a greatsword-yielding fighter incurs in so much penalties that not even all the rages in the world would make that remotely plausible. Yet Thog accomplished that by YELLING.

The only thing that somehow comforts me is that within a "strict gaming" combat, Thog would have raged from the very first round, and Roy would have a much harder time sundering the Axe, so I still call the result fair...

Oh yeah, for the "Rule of cool" crowd, please guys, try to understand... The giant has already proven to be more than competent in creating amazing combat scenes within the D&D rule framework (he even went to great lengths to show that Miko could have beaten the order fair and square). We from the "rules layering" team just love that about the strip... Of course, we can appreciate rule bending like Zz' dtri being dragged by the layers... But the flying sword felt a bit too "cartoon cliché" for me...

[FujinAkari]

But I am really having trouble stomaching the "flying sword" thing. Seriously, wtf was that about? Roy losing his sword was the singe pivotal event in the fight, and AFAIK it absolutely can't be explained within the D&D word. Seriously, an unarmed disarm against a greatsword-yielding fighter incurs in so much penalties that not even all the rages in the world would make that remotely plausible. Yet Thog accomplished that by YELLING.


He didn't accomplish that by yelling, he accomplished it by smashing Roy across the face as he stood up and sending Roy flying backwards, Roy already had a very tenious grip on his weapon (see the errors above, that one I agreed with) and he dropped it when he was sent sailing.

Same thing happened when Miko fell, and several times during the Roy / Miko fight... very strong hits translate into dropped weapons.

[Psyren]

You know how its always hard to find a diamond for the res spell? Where is V getting her rubies from for all those force cages?

Their WBL is pretty damn decent at this point, never mind that Haley is his best friend and is totally loaded (even to the point of building "Elan taxes" into her budget.)

And there's also the fact that she skipped out on Greysky without paying Hank a dime, Celia be damned. :smallamused:

[jidasfire]

While I am still enjoying the story (based largely on the fact that Rich Burlew usually brings the goods in his resolutions), I can fully understand the sense of frustration some readers have with the Order's incredibly poor luck. It seems as though no matter how well they plan, or how much trouble they fully expect, they still get ambushed and spend the majority of their fights scrambling to play defense. I've actually been in games like that, and it certainly can be frustrating. You think you have a good plan, but then you find out it didn't matter at all, and now you look like a chump. The Order certainly does have their share of wins, and they usually work things out (except when they're up against Xykon), but they usually succeed as individuals, and rarely if ever as a team. The Linear Guild, despite talk of them being the bumbling villains of the comic, function extremely well as a team. Of course, they always have the luxury of setting the stage to do so, and I think it's possible the Order would do as well if they ever had that chance, but they never do.

Of course, maybe that's what we're seeing here. Maybe the point of this arc is that the Order can't beat the Linear Guild as individuals. While I would like to see Roy actually prove his worth as a fighter and beat Thog in a real battle, and see if Vaarsuvius has learned enough from Xykon about the idea that power equals power to outwit his objectively stronger opponent, perhaps it's not to be. The point here may be that Elan has to reach Durkon and effectively gather the Order together, and let them fight as one for a change.

Personally, I want to see the Order succeed. Those who point out that heroes need to lose sometimes to make their victories matter are correct, but the Order of the Stick loses plenty, and many of their wins are by margins so slim they could turn to the right and you wouldn't see them, so I personally don't think that's a problem. It also doesn't help that there are horrible fates hanging over the heads of at least three of the protagonists. Caring enough about the heroes to want them to succeed through their own wits and merits, rather than being chew toys who luck out at the last minute isn't the same as wanting them to be invincible.

[martianmister]

Can we please get past the whole "The Order must win and should competently fight off all of their enemies" theme? It's really annoying.

[Thattaman]

Yeah................

I really understand where you're coming from.

[Kurald Galain]

If said druid had still had his mega-buffed Treant squad, Durkon would have been creamed. So yes, fiat.
If you put it like this, then the druid having a mega-buffed treant squad is also fiat.


It all comes down to the Roy is worthless.
Well, he did lose a level (from being rez'ed) in the time that other people were adventuring and gained one or more levels. The real mistake here is that the OOTS didn't notice they had to get papers to stay in the city. I guess they failed a spot check.

[Zerg Cookie]

And you didn't say that in the other thread for what reason?
Also, you don't have to take part of that thread. I find it rather amusing.

[Ted The Bug]

Comic sans.
I rest my case.

(but seriously, shouldn't that be a response in the other thread?)

[Toofey]

I was assuming it was some form of satire.

[Lord Seth]

{{scrubbed}}

[martianmister]

Comic sans.
I rest my case.

It's the official font of the OotS. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Aww man... :smallfrown:

[Timberboar]

So...

Basically the first several pages of this thread boil down to people labeling the Order as incompetent for not having precognition and knowing they were about to be attacked by the LG?

Really. Ok, then.

[Lord Seth]

Okay, reposting message with offending portion removed...

My issue is more the fact that Order of the Stick seems to be honestly be stalling for time at this point; it seems that every time there's some slight plot progression, the plot then veers off into a lengthy sidetrack that's either unnecessary or technically necessary but takes too long. I was getting pretty irritated by how long it was taking to get the party together, but then it seemed the plot was moving again...only to, after moving forward slightly, be sidetracked into this plot. That's what I'm getting tired of. This poor pacing has honestly dropped Order of the Stick from my favorite webcomic to one that I'd probably only check on a monthly basis (or less frequently) if not for me really liking the forums here.

Maybe a symptom of this is the Order constantly being walloped by enemies, but I think the weak pacing as outlined is the real problem.

[Toofey]

That is such a chronic event with adventuring parties it's ridiculous, I had thought all the side tracking was a nod to that.

[Quellian-dyrae]

But I am really having trouble stomaching the "flying sword" thing. Seriously, wtf was that about? Roy losing his sword was the singe pivotal event in the fight, and AFAIK it absolutely can't be explained within the D&D word. Seriously, an unarmed disarm against a greatsword-yielding fighter incurs in so much penalties that not even all the rages in the world would make that remotely plausible. Yet Thog accomplished that by YELLING.

It's actually quite plausible. Disarming with a light weapon is -4, and disarming a two-hander another -4, I believe. Thog has +6 Str for rage, and +2 Str for race. Disarm's an opposed attack roll, so in Roy's favor is at least a +1 for Weapon Focus. Presumably +2, really, for Greater Weapon Focus. So by that Thog's sitting at a net -6 with all else equal - not easy, but doable.

If Thog has Weapon Focus, this goes down to -5.

If Thog has the higher base Str (not impossible; although the Class and Level thread suggests Roy likely has maxed Str, with his high mental stats, he could very well not, if OoTS is on a point-buy system), the penalty is lower still.

If, due to being raised, and not being active for a while, Roy is lower level than Thog, the gap closes further. OoTS members are looking around 15th level at this stage, and Roy could be as low as 12th, since they seemed around 13th when Roy died. That could be up to a three point difference if the LG is on par with the Order.

So all things considered, it could be anywhere from quite hard but doable, to about an even shot. And even if he is eating the net -6 disadvantage, it's still possible within the rules. It's your classic Natural 20 in a critical situation, a defining example of Rule of Cool in an RPG setting. The accomplishing by yelling thing can be entirely attributed to fluff.

[Gd8908]

Can we please get past the whole "The Order sucks and can't competently fight off any of their enemies" theme? It's really annoying.

Also, WHERE. IS. DURKON.
Your vastly popular webcomic must be so much better.

[Boogastreehouse]

Okay, reposting message with offending portion removed...

My issue is more the fact that Order of the Stick seems to be honestly be stalling for time at this point; it seems that every time there's some slight plot progression, the plot then veers off into a lengthy sidetrack that's either unnecessary or technically necessary but takes too long.

Well the Giant could just race through to the end of the story, making small comments of a sentence or two in length along the way, about how this character developed in this direction and that character discovered that about themselves. He could eliminated all superfluous material that enriched the background and brought the setting to life, so that we would know with certainty that every bit of information Rich was feeding us was directly leading to the climax.

This way we wouldn't have to trouble ourselves wondering if something was going to be important later, nor would we experience that unpleasant thrill of suddenly realizing that a seemingly insignificant detail turned out to be foreshadowing something significant, because we were only shown the important things.

It would also be far more preferable to dispense with all of the obstacles that the characters must face and overcome. The growth that they gradually show, the setbacks they fall prey to; these things could just be summed up in a little narration box.

If the Giant would only adopt these changes, we could just get this story over with, instead of being forced to enjoy it for years and years.

I would totally love a story like that.

[Ceryan]

>>

Wow, honestly I was just venting because multiple story lines I'm following had slowed around really frustrating segments.

And then 6 pages later...

[Mutant Sheep]

Well the Giant could just race through to the end of the story, making small comments of a sentence or two in length along the way, about how this character developed in this direction and that character discovered that about themselves. He could eliminated all superfluous material that enriched the background and brought the setting to life, so that we would know with certainty that every bit of information Rich was feeding us was directly leading to the climax.

This way we wouldn't have to trouble ourselves wondering if something was going to be important later, nor would we experience that unpleasant thrill of suddenly realizing that a seemingly insignificant detail turned out to be foreshadowing something significant, because we were only shown the important things.

It would also be far more preferable to dispense with all of the obstacles that the characters must face and overcome. The growth that they gradually show, the setbacks they fall prey to; these things could just be summed up in a little narration box.

If the Giant would only adopt these changes, we could just get this story over with, instead of being forced to enjoy it for years and years.

I would totally love a story like that.

Who wouldn't love a story like that? /sarcasm]
Maybe for an "entire storyline shown because I cant keep doing this comic" like Anti-heroes was going to do, it would work. [Before they got new artists, which reminds me, I should check Anti-heroes]

[sims796]

Your vastly popular webcomic must be so much better.

So...he's not allowed to be dissapointed at the way the comic is going?

[Mutant Sheep]

So...he's not allowed to be dissapointed at the way the comic is going?

Question the Giant, you question O-Chul. Question O-Chul, and he will come for you with his super advanced flying stealth dinosaur.I support adding Blackwing to O-chul's stable.

[Devonix]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is pretty much the entire reason that 3.5 is horribly unbalanced. The fighter and barbarian are supposed to be the heavy hitters, with the cleric and druid coming in second, but it didn't turn out that way at all. Heck, a well played wizard is a better heavy hitter without being a glass cannon, and not just because of blasty spells.

Lol this pretty much. Barbarians and fighters just get outclassed so easily even when minmaxed. One recent campaign had our DM toss us in an ambush scenario with a Barbarian capable of One Shotting most of the party members if he could charge. which he did during a suprise round utterly killing our main Fighter. Next turn one Cleric tossed Blindness spell completely took the guy out of the fight.

Even when the're a threat the're too easy to stop.

[DougTheHead]

The Linear Guild has always won in a straight fight; it's the Order that needs to resort to help from outside sources and cheap tricks in order to claim victory.

The Order and the Linear Guild have never had a straight fight; every conflict between them is one instigated by the Linear Guild, who prepares specifically for the fight ahead of time. The Order goes in without a clue as to what's going on (the first and third times because they had no idea there was a threat, the second time because, with Julia kidnapped, they had no choice). The one time the least powerful member of the Order came at the Linear Guild with any sort of advanced preparation, the LG got it's ass kicked.

[Burner28]

It all comes down to the Roy is worthless. Roy constantly thinks he is better than the average fighter because he went to fighter "school". Thog is dumb as a brick, but in combat Thog is going to beat the dog poop out of Roy. Hands down, every time. Straight on fight.

But then again, I hate Roy and would love to see him eaten by something large and then that said monster poop out Roy turds. Which I would sit and giggle about for many hours.

Ooookay.... Isn't that kinda extreme?

[Adeptus]

OotS is easily my favorite webcomic and the pacing is sweet and fine.

My only peeve was that I felt Roy was cheated of a hard fought and deserved win, and I still don't understand why and how he lost his sword.

But that's nothing. One questionable (to me) choise in 800 pages of comics. Go Giant! <3

[Psyren]

Lol this pretty much. Barbarians and fighters just get outclassed so easily even when minmaxed. One recent campaign had our DM toss us in an ambush scenario with a Barbarian capable of One Shotting most of the party members if he could charge. which he did during a suprise round utterly killing our main Fighter. Next turn one Cleric tossed Blindness spell completely took the guy out of the fight.

Even when the're a threat the're too easy to stop.

Given that Blindness is a fort save, that is beyond sad. I would demand that you all kill me rather than return to my tribe with that story.

[jidasfire]

Ooookay.... Isn't that kinda extreme?

There are a frightening number of people who read Order of the Stick yet vocally despise one or more of the main protagonists of the comic. The psychological problems inherent with personally hating a fictional character aside, I've always wondered why these people read a comic where the main focus is on someone they loathe, and where that character will probably succeed in the end. Different strokes, I guess.

[sims796]

Question the Giant, you question O-Chul. Question O-Chul, and he will come for you with his super advanced flying stealth dinosaur.I support adding Blackwing to O-chul's stable.

I'd argue with you, but seeing as I'm an O-Chuluist, I've got nothing to say.


There are a frightening number of people who read Order of the Stick yet vocally despise one or more of the main protagonists of the comic. The psychological problems inherent with personally hating a fictional character aside, I've always wondered why these people read a comic where the main focus is on someone they loathe, and where that character will probably succeed in the end. Different strokes, I guess.

What? I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense. It is not wrong to hate a main character. It isn't crazy to hate a fictional character. I mean, psychological issues? Really?

We can wish terrible intent on a fictional character because they are just that - fictional. I would call it wrong to wish such on a real person, but because you know it's fiction, you know that you can wish bad things on a character that won't have any real issues. I don't mind watching Roy get the stuffing beat out of him by Thog; if I liked Roy, should I shed a tear if he died? Would that be any "less crazy"?

That aside, people read things even though they have characters they dislike (ignoring the fact that the poster only pointed out his dislike for Roy) because they may like the story as a whole.

[Lord Seth]

That is such a chronic event with adventuring parties it's ridiculous, I had thought all the side tracking was a nod to that.Taking a common problem and putting it into your webcomic does not change it being a problem.
Your vastly popular webcomic must be so much better."Let's see you do better" is one of the worst arguments you can make in terms of responding to criticism.
Well the Giant could just race through to the end of the story, making small comments of a sentence or two in length along the way, about how this character developed in this direction and that character discovered that about themselves. He could eliminated all superfluous material that enriched the background and brought the setting to life, so that we would know with certainty that every bit of information Rich was feeding us was directly leading to the climax.The bulk of your message is making me into a strawman, so for the most part there's not much to reply to because you're saying things I don't agree with in the first place. However, I should respond to this bit...
If the Giant would only adopt these changes, we could just get this story over with, instead of being forced to enjoy it for years and years.My enjoyment of Order of the Stick has substantially lessened due to the problems I complained about (as well as some others). If having the pacing improve (which would in turn make it shorter as a side effect) would make it a better story, by all means do so. Having a shorter and better story is preferable to a longer but weaker one.

[jidasfire]

I'd argue with you, but seeing as I'm an O-Chuluist, I've got nothing to say.



What? I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense. It is not wrong to hate a main character. It isn't crazy to hate a fictional character. I mean, psychological issues? Really?

We can wish terrible intent on a fictional character because they are just that - fictional. I would call it wrong to wish such on a real person, but because you know it's fiction, you know that you can wish bad things on a character that won't have any real issues. I don't mind watching Roy get the stuffing beat out of him by Thog; if I liked Roy, should I shed a tear if he died? Would that be any "less crazy"?

That aside, people read things even though they have characters they dislike (ignoring the fact that the poster only pointed out his dislike for Roy) because they may like the story as a whole.

Disliking and liking fictional characters as fictional characters is one thing. I might like a character because I identify with them, or they're something I aspire to, they're fascinatingly original, or they amuse me. I might dislike a character because they're poorly written, or I find them unbelievable, or they fail to do what the author intends them to do. None of that means I take their actions personally. It's fine if you don't like Roy as a character; at times I find that he falls short of what he should be, i.e. a tactical warrior and leader. That said, I still like him enough to want him to succeed and grow. Wanting him to suffer and die a horrible death, being joyful about that and angry at his mere presence, goes beyond that. Hell, I dislike the character of Celia, but at the end of the day, I know she's not real, and don't treat her actions as fronts against myself. I occasionally wished she would shut up, but I don't hope she suffers some horrible fate. See the difference?

Most readers are emotionally invested in the story, and that is all well and good. I certainly am. Still, harboring a deep-seated personal grudge against a person who is not only not real, but also the main hero of the story strikes me as kind of off-kilter for someone reading said story, and begs the question of why they're reading at all. After all, even if Thog wins this fight, ultimately the Order is going to win out and move on. They have to for the story to progress. Sure, I guess you could argue that "it would be a great twist" if Mr. Burlew let the villains win, but the Order drives the story, and if they lose, especially against the Linear Guild, Xykon wins and rules the world like a psychopathic monster, or the Snarl eats everything, or the IFCC does whatever horrible thing they're up to. My point is, the Order is going to win. Even if most or all of them ultimately die, their arc is to save the world from all the badness that's converging on it. Having a problem with that means you're probably going to be very disappointed.

[Andorax]

I think part of the problem is that the lengthy recent delay has put people generally on edge (more so than usual), and that events that already take a long time to play out in a webcomic format (at least, one you're keeping up on) are taking an even LONGER time to play out as a result.


That said, consider if you will a post like this in another forum:

My and my friends just like to get together and have a good time playing D&D. We've kept the same campaign going since before we switched over to 3.5, but the DM hasn't let us change some of the things we'd like to about our characters even with the rules change.

With that said, I've got some concerns about how the DM is running things. We have a group of "nemesis" foes that keep showing up...we even recognized once that we can't kill them (they'd just be raised) and went way out of our way to get them locked away forever in magic-proof cells, and of course the DM let them out anyways.

Whenever we fight them, it's always an ambush, or a surprise attack, and they are often specifically designed or buffed up to take us down. The "evil" wizard, for example, owns our own wizard, with a better spell selection, SR, and the ability to customize his list just to attack, when we have to be ready for regular adventures or even 'down time' in town.

Our characters aren't optimized to the n'th degree, that's not fun for us...but we keep getting smacked around. Half the time, we are able to keep going because one of us comes up with something off the wall and the DM is amused, letting us get away with it...the other half of the time, we're waiting around for the DM-Ex-Machina to railroad us back out of the fight he railroaded us into.



This, then, may very well be the point of view that the OOTS viewers who "see themselves in the storyline" and like to imagine it as if it were a series of gaming sessions. Taken from that perspective, I can see how they (note, not "we") would get frustrated.

[sims796]

Disliking and liking fictional characters as fictional characters is one thing. I might like a character because I identify with them, or they're something I aspire to, they're fascinatingly original, or they amuse me. I might dislike a character because they're poorly written, or I find them unbelievable, or they fail to do what the author intends them to do. None of that means I take their actions personally. It's fine if you don't like Roy as a character; at times I find that he falls short of what he should be, i.e. a tactical warrior and leader. That said, I still like him enough to want him to succeed and grow. Wanting him to suffer and die a horrible death, being joyful about that and angry at his mere presence, goes beyond that. Hell, I dislike the character of Celia, but at the end of the day, I know she's not real, and don't treat her actions as fronts against myself. I occasionally wished she would shut up, but I don't hope she suffers some horrible fate. See the difference?

Most readers are emotionally invested in the story, and that is all well and good. I certainly am. Still, harboring a deep-seated personal grudge against a person who is not only not real, but also the main hero of the story strikes me as kind of off-kilter for someone reading said story, and begs the question of why they're reading at all. After all, even if Thog wins this fight, ultimately the Order is going to win out and move on. They have to for the story to progress. Sure, I guess you could argue that "it would be a great twist" if Mr. Burlew let the villains win, but the Order drives the story, and if they lose, especially against the Linear Guild, Xykon wins and rules the world like a psychopathic monster, or the Snarl eats everything, or the IFCC does whatever horrible thing they're up to. My point is, the Order is going to win. Even if most or all of them ultimately die, their arc is to save the world from all the badness that's converging on it. Having a problem with that means you're probably going to be very disappointed.

This is where I disagree. You can wish her to suffer a horrible fate, simply because she annoys you as a fictional character. When Miko died, I was glad; she annoyed the heck outta me, and she got taken out in a harsh way. Is it wrong that I felt that way? No. Because she's a fictional character, I can wish the most awful things to her. I can pick apart a minor flaw, and wish nothing but the worst. Same thing for video games. A character in a game can screw you over, and you respond by destroying his village. You can, because you know it isn't real. Some found Kaiden from Mass Effect annoying, so they killed him off when given the chance. Because it's fiction, your imagionation can take over, and you can wish whatever you like upon said character.

Furthermore, nobody said they disliked every main character. They may like OOTS in spite of Roy. Hell, even if they hated the main characters, there may be a large multitude of reasons why one would read this comic.

So no, wanting to kill Roy off, wanting him dropped off of a bridge, wanting him killed but good is not a poor reflection on the individual. It just means they disliked that character.

[Snails]

If you're fighting an enemy whom you weren't prepared for, who has -specifically- desinged its strategy to beat you, then being beaten doesn't make you ineffective...

I do not have a problem with any of the Order, or Roy specifically, losing the recent bouts. I do not have a problem with Roy ultimately losing the bout, even after having disarmed Thog.

But from my POV, Thog instantly and easily nullifying a very well & smartly earned tactical advantage demolishes suspension of disbelief. It is a direct contradiction of what we have seen again and again about Roy -- he is a highly competent soldier even in an unfair fight, who stands his ground swinging with his sword for both victories and defeats.

From what I see, Roy gets demolished because Thog is so much kewler than Roy. Not because of Roy's poor build. Not because of any silly tactical error.

While I want to believe that somehow this defeat will spur character growth for Roy, I have more than a few doubts. Most suggestions about Roy's "errors" on this board imply that Roy should reverse his own character growth, i.e. trust his own teammates less, and run the Order like a well-oiled military machine, marching around like life were one eternal dungeon crawl. Blech.

[Timberboar]

But from my POV [...]

From what I see [...]

They say that expectation colors perception. I would argue that that may be the case here.

From MY point of view, this appears to me as Thog's kick-the-puppy moment which sets him up for his ultimate (and probably lethal) comeuppance.

In fact, I would go so far as to say the Giant is doing everything he can in this scene to finally establish Thog as a villain in need of putting down, and not as "kewl."

But again, that's my own expectations filtering my perceptions, so take that as you will.

[Boogastreehouse]

The bulk of your message is making me into a strawman, so for the most part there's not much to reply to because you're saying things I don't agree with in the first place.

Oh, strawman-shmaw...man... um... anyway...

...you come off sounding impatient to get to the end of the story, and that's what I was responding to. Maybe I misread you, or maybe you didn't express yourself clearly enough, but pulling the old strawman card is sure a handy way to dismiss someone.

You're complaining about the change in the pacing and the increase in tangents. I'm saying that the tangents help to make the story come to life.

The Order spent a heck of a lot of time in Azure City, fer instance, and there were lengthy tangents to be dealt with during that time (like the visit to the Oracle, and the Linear Guild kidnapping Roy's sister). At the time I remember thinking "wow, is the comic just going to be centered in Azure City from now on?" Now that time has passed and I can read it as one story arc among others, the pacing of it feels different. I expect the same will be said of the current leg of the story.

One of the things that I think is valuable about these tangents is that it keeps you guessing as to what's going to actually be important. Are Gannji and Enor coming back? Who knows? Maybe that's the last that we will ever see of them; hucking a spear a Tarquin and flying away. Or, they could very well turn out to be very important characters later on. That lack of certainty was achieved in part because The Giant has created a world of interesting tangents and I, for one, appreciate how hard it is to predict the plot.

Really, I don't think the pacing has changed so very much, and if it has, I suspect that it is because, as he has become more experienced, The Giant has gotten a better feel for how he wants to pace things. He really likes making character development proceed at a gradual and realistic pace, and he loves his foreshadowing. If he's taking his time more now than he was before (and I don't really see it), then it's because he's got stuff planned that he wants to set up just so.

[Snails]

They say that expectation colors perception. I would argue that that may be the case here.

[other stuff deleted]

But again, that's my own expectations filtering my perceptions, so take that as you will.

Not disagreeing with any of your points.

I do want to focus on this strain of thought here.

It is the intrinsic nature of good narrative art that we are taken on an emotional journey that involves expectations, anticipation, and uncertainty in an ever changing mixture.

Yes, you are correct. Expectations color interpretation. But to not have expectations would to not be involved in the story.

The best narrative tales include both exciting & enormous surprises, as well as the emotional sense that the surprises were almost inevitable in hindsight (even while it is understood that literally speaking inevitability may not apply at all).

That is where the crushing defeat of Roy fails for me. It is not the fact he lost -- I would not have bet on Roy winning at the start of the bout. The "how" feels in outright contradiction with what I believed about Roy, based on certain clear facts and past history (e.g. Roy crossed blades with Thog before and held his own, just fine.) and it is not compelling in any way in hindsight.

Thog's fate one way or another in no way compensates for the perceived violence to my understanding of who Roy is.

[Lord Seth]

Oh, strawman-shmaw...man... um... anyway...It was a strawman. You took my complaints, exaggerated them to ridiculous points, and then refuted those exaggerations rather than my actual complaints. That's pretty much the definition of a strawman.


...you come off sounding impatient to get to the end of the story, and that's what I was responding to. Maybe I misread you, or maybe you didn't express yourself clearly enough, but pulling the old strawman card is sure a handy way to dismiss someone.Considering you were arguing against things I wasn't arguing for, there's not much else to do.

I'm not impatient about getting to the end of the story. I'm fine with the end of the story being a ways off. What I am impatient about is how long it's taking things to happen in the story. After the battle of Azure City, the comic's been practically nothing but tangents. I do not mind that they did not get back together immediately, but so much of what was going on felt unnecessary or, while technically important, went on for too long. I was fine with it for actually a fair amount of time, but it finally just got to the point where I started thinking "ugh, is this EVER going to end?" (along with hoping Celia would die or something would happen that would get her permanently removed from the comic, it's actually a bit surprising how quickly she went from "character I don't care about" to "worst character in the entire comic" for me). So when it finally, finally, FINALLY all got resolved and the group got together again, I was hoping the story would get back on track. And it did...for a short time, and then it went off on another tangent that it's still on.

It's not just the existence of the tangents that bug me, I'm fine with those. My issue is the number of them as of late, the fact they seem to go on too long, and the fact that at this point in the strip, it should be past that kind of thing. Sure, the bandits arc from a while back went on for quite a bit, but that was before a particularly strong plot got going. To return to sidetracking tangents after The Battle of Azure City arc (which was very well paced) feels like a step backwards.

[sims796]

It was a strawman. You took my complaints, exaggerated them to ridiculous points, and then refuted those exaggerations rather than my actual complaints. That's pretty much the definition of a strawman.

Considering you were arguing against things I wasn't arguing for, there's not much else to do.

I'm not impatient about getting to the end of the story. I'm fine with the end of the story being a ways off. What I am impatient about is how long it's taking things to happen in the story. After the battle of Azure City, the comic's been practically nothing but tangents. I do not mind that they did not get back together immediately, but so much of what was going on felt unnecessary or, while technically important, went on for too long. I was fine with it for actually a fair amount of time, but it finally just got to the point where I started thinking "ugh, is this EVER going to end?" (along with hoping Celia would die or something would happen that would get her permanently removed from the comic, it's actually a bit surprising how quickly she went from "character I don't care about" to "worst character in the entire comic" for me). So when it finally, finally, FINALLY all got resolved and the group got together again, I was hoping the story would get back on track. And it did...for a short time, and then it went off on another tangent that it's still on.

It's not just the existence of the tangents that bug me, I'm fine with those. My issue is the number of them as of late, the fact they seem to go on too long, and the fact that at this point in the strip, it should be past that kind of thing. Sure, the bandits arc from a while back went on for quite a bit, but that was before a particularly strong plot got going. To return to sidetracking tangents after The Battle of Azure City arc (which was very well paced) feels like a step backwards.

I honestly have to agree with this. I've been waiting for this Gladitorial arc to end, but it looks like that won't happen.

I think there's a quote going on, about how the Order doesn't take care of the main quest, they just get sidetracked in sidequest.

[FujinAkari]

I think there's a quote going on, about how the Order doesn't take care of the main quest, they just get sidetracked in sidequest.

How exactly is 'we need to find out where Girard's gate is' not part of the main quest?

[Snails]

How exactly is 'we need to find out where Girard's gate is' not part of the main quest?

Point. But we are probably about 50 strips into waiting for Elan to have that useful conversation with Tarquin. And all this while, I see no evidence of significant character growth within the Order (although Elan's rooftop conversation may spur Elan forward at a later time).

[Cracklord]

There are a frightening number of people who read Order of the Stick yet vocally despise one or more of the main protagonists of the comic. The psychological problems inherent with personally hating a fictional character aside, I've always wondered why these people read a comic where the main focus is on someone they loathe, and where that character will probably succeed in the end. Different strokes, I guess.

Guilty! I spend an unhealthy amount of time hating Belkar. But as a psychology student, I can assure you it's just a way of venting, perhaps influenced by frustrations of my own that I haven't bothered to examine in detail.
Nothing wrong with that. I still think the Giant is an impeccable writer, I just dislike Belkar as a character, and think the story would be better without it.
You don't need to like every aspect of a story to enjoy it. The people who criticize Tolkien for his anti-industrialization views or making the orcs always evil tend to be among his biggest fans, as people only casually reading it tend not to pick up on as much.
Also, some people like to hate, as strange as that sounds. They look at something purely for the purpose of disagreeing with it, and love a good fight or argument. The fact that they complain doesn't mean anything, in many ways they enjoy the comic as much as the people who love every strip regardless of the content, it just takes a very different form.

[sims796]

How exactly is 'we need to find out where Girard's gate is' not part of the main quest?

Good point. And when we get back to that, it'll be an even better point.

[Boogastreehouse]

The thing is it could be argued... I guess I am arguing... that these events aren't irrelevant tangents at all, nor would I want to see them edited out or rushed.

Look at what's been going on:

While seeking to uncover the mystery of Girard's Gate, bounty hunters captured the heroes and brought them into Tarquin's domain.

A long-established plot thread, Tarquin is Elan's long-lost father, and he has information that the party thinks is important. Before he releases that information, many members of the party are tested in ways which directly touch upon their back stories, and they must reevaluate their beliefs and grow from this peroid.

Tarquin has had a profound effect on Elan's long-established need for a father/older brother figure, and Elan has had to wipe the scales from his eyes. I expect we will see changes in the way Elan sees Roy as a result of this. Will Elan question the "infallible" Roy at a critical moment? Perhaps it will be the bard that Roy dismisses as foolish, that gives Roy that crucial piece of advice. You can't rush the set-up for a moment like that.

The conflict with Enor and Ganji has directly forced Belkar to confront his shifting values, and the shame he feels at doing a charitable deed.

Durkon has long felt like an outsider, and he has finally met someone he can really relate to. I don't know where this is going, but I'm eager to see Durkon get some attention.

Now that Elan has resolved to stand against his father and Belkar has begun to walk a new path, here comes The Linear Guild! (it turns out that the green-haired elf, a seemingly irrelevant background character, was a significant character after all!) The LG is here to test those character developments, and the Order cannot move forward until they have walked through the fire. If they cannot succeed here, what hope do they have of defeating Xykon!

Whew! I'd say a lot of very relevant and important things have happened in this book so far.

[Devonix]

Given that Blindness is a fort save, that is beyond sad. I would demand that you all kill me rather than return to my tribe with that story.


Well I do happen to like pumping my Save DCs as any good cleric does. :smallwink:

[sims796]

The thing is it could be argued... I guess I am arguing... that these events aren't irrelevant tangents at all, nor would I want to see them edited out or rushed.

Look at what's been going on:

While seeking to uncover the mystery of Girard's Gate, bounty hunters captured the heroes and brought them into Tarquin's domain.

A long-established plot thread, Tarquin is Elan's long-lost father, and he has information that the party thinks is important. Before he releases that information, many members of the party are tested in ways which directly touch upon their back stories, and they must reevaluate their beliefs and grow from this peroid.

Tarquin has had a profound effect on Elan's long-established need for a father/older brother figure, and Elan has had to wipe the scales from his eyes. I expect we will see changes in the way Elan sees Roy as a result of this. Will Elan question the "infallible" Roy at a critical moment? Perhaps it will be the bard that Roy dismisses as foolish, that gives the Roy that crucial piece of advice. You can't rush the set-up for a moment like that.

The conflict with Enor and Ganji has directly forced Belkar to confront his shifting values, and the shame he feels at doing a charitable deed.

Durkon has long felt like an outsider, and he has finally met someone he can really relate to. I don't know where this is going, but I'm eager to see Durkon get some attention.

Now that Elan has resolved to stand against his father and Belkar has begun to walk a new path, here comes The Linear Guild! (it turns out that the green-haired elf, a seemingly irrelevant background character, was a significant character after all!) The LG is here to test those character developments, and the Order cannot move forward until they have walked through the fire. If they cannot succeed here, what hope do they have of defeating Xykon!

Whew! I'd say a lot of very relevant and important things have happened in this book so far.
I can't really speak for Seth, but what you have posted can be said of just about any twisting plot point that happens in this comic. I mean, of course they're relevant. Everything that happens in this comic is relevant. But for some, it feels like we are getting an extra-long, drawn out scene. The lack of updates that happend made it seem worse (in fact, that may be why it seems more drawn out than before). As I said, I couldn't wait until they left the gladitorial arena, but Nale has thwarted my plan.

[Snails]

Well, I would not go so far as to say we are dithering. But the plot lines seem to be multiplying faster than they resolve, and that potentially problematic trend is still continuing.

That at least explains why the updates were slow. How to keep things moving and coordinated is not trivial. Like DMing a party that keeps splitting up.

How many threads are running right now?
1. Roy v. Thog
2. Blackwing v. Qarr
3. V vs. Zzz
4. Durkon and Malack?
5. Elan v. Nale
6. Tarquin himself
7. Belkar saving his cat

Those are the high activity threads.

And there are a few implied other interested parties, who could jump in the spotlight at any moment:
8: Xykon
9. Redcloak
10. IFCC
11. Girard

[Onyavar]

*huff* reading through the entire thread, I found that the topic has changed a few times.

Summary of thread:

First topic: Compentence (in the current situation)
- OotS is acting incompentent!
- nu-uh, OotS just acting according to situation, and things got unexpectedly bad!
- yes, OotS fails to plan for emergencies! Everytime they split up, they get surprise-attacked.
- splitting up in peaceful town seemed a good idea at the moment...
- well, and they act incompentently on other occasions *details on tactics* - "If I were Roy, I would have done"
- duuh! everyone knows errors in hindsight!
- nah, I saw the errors all along!
- dudes, the order has just a too weak build to do anything seriously guys.

Second topic: Compentence (vs. Linear Guild)
*after distorted analysis on how compentent/strong the previous battles vs. Linear Guild were*
- 3 vs 4! Clearly, the OotS only wins through cheating!
- bah, the LG cheats as well! 4 vs 5! 3 vs 1! and 2 vs 2 anyway!
- fair unfair shmonfair! The linear guild has just a too strong build and will always beat the order
- yes, because they always ambush the order and are well prepared - in a fair fight and well prepared they would crush nale...
- BUT! the order should have known, just look at #458 panel #20 to expect the latest...

Third topic: DM ex machina
*disappointed reader finds a "frustrated" thread, writes something and flies off*
- how dare you mention that! the definition of deus ex machina is... and thus this is not deus ex machina
- BUT! he has a point, lookit here, where Belkar hires the adventurers, and there, where V summons the lawyers! And Elans teletubbies against Thog... that is a suspension of disbelief! And a violation of D&D rules!!
- Rich doesn't follow the rules word by word
- he does!
- no, he doesn't, but he should!
- no, he shouldn't, but he in fact does! Which is why the bad build of oots sucks!
- but they're like persons, not like minmaxing players! and because of this, oots is well written, and praise to Rich!
- how the hell are they supposed to win against Xykon then, who is an epic lich and minmaxed to his crown! the answer is obviously: DM ex machina!
- but..!

Fourth topic: Storytelling
- Rich always sets up the story like "first bash oots, then luck/coincidence/machina wins the day"
- no, he doesn't
- yes he does
- obligatory flame-bait, readily scrubbed by mods
- his writing sucks!
- then don't read it! and close the door on your way out!
- oops, no I justed wanted to express that this is a weak point and the pace is a bit slow, and *grumblegrumble* in an overly lengthy post
- well, if you like the story then lean back and enjoy, respect the author, it's for free!
- THIS and I still need to point out that... *shmonzes* in an overly lengthy post, defending the once taken position against

After reading all this, I got tired of it, in fact. Yes.

Adding my 2 cents on this pile of coins isn't worth it - but IMHO:
- build: the order is perfectly built for successful comedy+drama. And they definitly NEED the XP from sidequests to be able to beat Xykon later. As others already pointed out, the LG is built for besting the order - but in one-on-one combat. But: Elan beats Thog, Roy beats Sabine, V beats Nale...
- competence: not being an oracle, Roy decided according to the situation, maybe a bit overconfident - but he explained (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html)his motivations, and they were reasonable. All later split-ups were reasonable, too: Should Elan stay with V and sing a motivation tune, so that 'e can concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html)better (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html)? Or should Elan bring Haley to Durkon, and then the three join the battle?
- on storytelling: Everyone who blames Rich to be repetitive in the method of "first beat the heroes, then do a surprise-twist so that they win". You realize that you're complaining on a high niveau here?!

[Klear]

Well, I would not go so far as to say we are dithering. But the plot lines seem to be multiplying faster than they resolve, and that potentially problematic trend is still continuing.

That at least explains why the updates were slow. How to keep things moving and coordinated is not trivial. Like DMing a party that keeps splitting up.

How many threads are running right now?
1. Roy v. Thog
2. Blackwing v. Qarr
3. V vs. Zzz
4. Durkon and Malack?
5. Elan v. Nale
6. Tarquin himself
7. Belkar saving his cat

Those are the high activity threads.

And there are a few implied other interested parties, who could jump in the spotlight at any moment:
8: Xykon
9. Redcloak
10. IFCC
11. Girard

Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 can be pretty much summed as OOTS vs LG. There' no need to separate the incidents.

[Gift Jeraff]

I never really got the whole "if it's not directly about the Gates, it's just a subplot that's running too long!" thing. I guess it's because I never really saw the Gates plot as the main plot, it's just the central driving force that binds all the other plot threads together. IMO, Elan's family is far more significant than the Gates, but that's just me.
- well, if you like the story then lean back and enjoy, respect the author, it's for free!I strongly disagree with all of the criticism going on in this thread, but this is just as bad as the "I don't see your webcomic!" argument. Going by this logic, no one should ever dislike a YouTube video. After all, it's free and if you don't like it you can just leave. :smallwink:

Anyway, criticism is not disrespect. I think not offering any feedback would be disrespectful.

[Lord Seth]

obligatory flame-bait, readily scrubbed by modsI assume this is referring to my message, and I feel I should point out that the removal had nothing to do with being flame-bait of any kind; it was removed because I made a brief reference to an off-limit topic. If you wanted to work the removed message into your synopsis for humor that's fine, but don't incorrectly assume you know the reason it was removed.

Also:
- oops, no I justed wanted to express that this is a weak point and the pace is a bit slow, and *grumblegrumble* in an overly lengthy postIs this supposed to be a reference to my second message? Because it was only three paragraphs, and two of those paragraphs were one sentence each.


- on storytelling: Everyone who blames Rich to be repetitive in the method of "first beat the heroes, then do a surprise-twist so that they win". You realize that you're complaining on a high niveau here?!What does "complaining on a high niveau" even mean? I looked it up and niveau is French for level, but I don't see what "complaining on a high level" is supposed to mean anyway.

[Mutant Sheep]

*huff* reading through the entire thread, I found that the topic has changed a few times.

Summary of thread:

First topic: Compentence (in the current situation)
- OotS is acting incompentent!
- nu-uh, OotS just acting according to situation, and things got unexpectedly bad!
- yes, OotS fails to plan for emergencies! Everytime they split up, they get surprise-attacked.
- splitting up in peaceful town seemed a good idea at the moment...
- well, and they act incompentently on other occasions *details on tactics* - "If I were Roy, I would have done"
- duuh! everyone knows errors in hindsight!
- nah, I saw the errors all along!
- dudes, the order has just a too weak build to do anything seriously guys.

Second topic: Compentence (vs. Linear Guild)
*after distorted analysis on how compentent/strong the previous battles vs. Linear Guild were*
- 3 vs 4! Clearly, the OotS only wins through cheating!
- bah, the LG cheats as well! 4 vs 5! 3 vs 1! and 2 vs 2 anyway!
- fair unfair shmonfair! The linear guild has just a too strong build and will always beat the order
- yes, because they always ambush the order and are well prepared - in a fair fight and well prepared they would crush nale...
- BUT! the order should have known, just look at #458 panel #20 to expect the latest...

Third topic: DM ex machina
*disappointed reader finds a "frustrated" thread, writes something and flies off*
- how dare you mention that! the definition of deus ex machina is... and thus this is not deus ex machina
- BUT! he has a point, lookit here, where Belkar hires the adventurers, and there, where V summons the lawyers! And Elans teletubbies against Thog... that is a suspension of disbelief! And a violation of D&D rules!!
- Rich doesn't follow the rules word by word
- he does!
- no, he doesn't, but he should!
- no, he shouldn't, but he in fact does! Which is why the bad build of oots sucks!
- but they're like persons, not like minmaxing players! and because of this, oots is well written, and praise to Rich!
- how the hell are they supposed to win against Xykon then, who is an epic lich and minmaxed to his crown! the answer is obviously: DM ex machina!
- but..!

Fourth topic: Storytelling
- Rich always sets up the story like "first bash oots, then luck/coincidence/machina wins the day"
- no, he doesn't
- yes he does
- obligatory flame-bait, readily scrubbed by mods
- his writing sucks!
- then don't read it! and close the door on your way out!
- oops, no I justed wanted to express that this is a weak point and the pace is a bit slow, and *grumblegrumble* in an overly lengthy post
- well, if you like the story then lean back and enjoy, respect the author, it's for free!
- THIS and I still need to point out that... *shmonzes* in an overly lengthy post, defending the once taken position against

After reading all this, I got tired of it, in fact. Yes.

Adding my 2 cents on this pile of coins isn't worth it - but IMHO:
- build: the order is perfectly built for successful comedy+drama. And they definitly NEED the XP from sidequests to be able to beat Xykon later. As others already pointed out, the LG is built for besting the order - but in one-on-one combat. But: Elan beats Thog, Roy beats Sabine, V beats Nale...
- competence: not being an oracle, Roy decided according to the situation, maybe a bit overconfident - but he explained (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html)his motivations, and they were reasonable. All later split-ups were reasonable, too: Should Elan stay with V and sing a motivation tune, so that 'e can concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html)better (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html)? Or should Elan bring Haley to Durkon, and then the three join the battle?
- on storytelling: Everyone who blames Rich to be repetitive in the method of "first beat the heroes, then do a surprise-twist so that they win". You realize that you're complaining on a high niveau here?!

I like your avatar. Some kind of not goth Tsukiko, or a mystical syringe or whatever the class was called. Summary of the thread should become obligatory for all threads, because this was hilarious.

[Onyavar]

I assume this is referring to my message, and I feel I should point out that the removal had nothing to do with being flame-bait of any kind; it was removed because I made a brief reference to an off-limit topic. If you wanted to work the removed message into your synopsis for humor that's fine, but don't incorrectly assume you know the reason it was removed.

Sorry for that, then. I just noticed one scrubbed post and worked it into the summary.
For all the statements, I tried to just catch the overall trends of the thread, and in the section where your post was scrubbed, others were already on the border to flame-baiting. I didnn't look at anyone specific and already forgot names of posters and the exact arguments when I wrote the synopsis. Hope you're not offended if I leave my previous post as it is.


What does "complaining on a high niveau" even mean? I looked it up and niveau is French for level, but I don't see what "complaining on a high level" is supposed to mean anyway.

Oops, my bad. Juggling with French and English (both not my mother language) sometimes produces funny results. I try to write in best english, so I'm glad for every error that people point out to me.
What I meant is "in most (webcomic and/or fantasy and/or roleplaying) stories, the storytelling standards are rather low. In OotS the standards are pretty high. Most people wouldn't argue that Rich Burlew writes a predictable story :smallamused:
So, anyone complaining about Rich's way of narrating his story, should remember: Only few stories in the genre are on a comparable or better level regarding pace, twists, character development, humour, continuity, and so on.

Maybe "complaining about a high standard" would be a better word choice for what I wanted to say.

[TheLaughingMan]

So, anyone complaining about Rich's way of narrating his story, should remember: Only few stories in the genre are on a comparable or better level regarding pace, twists, character development, humour, continuity, and so on.

Maybe "complaining about a high standard" would be a better word choice for what I wanted to say.

I don't wanna get too involved in the debate, seeing as I stopped reading the strip years ago, but I'd like to note that I would be glad if one of my works came under professional criticism. It means that I'm doing well enough for people to expect great things from me. Don't look at the complaints as haters looking for faults, look at them as disgruntled readers who know Rich can do better. :smallsmile:

[sims796]

I don't wanna get too involved in the debate, seeing as I stopped reading the strip years ago, but I'd like to note that I would be glad if one of my works came under professional criticism. It means that I'm doing well enough for people to expect great things from me. Don't look at the complaints as haters looking for faults, look at them as disgruntled readers who know Rich can do better. :smallsmile:

This goes with many things in life. Every time there's critisizim, it's always "fanboys being haters". Well ya know what? Too bad. I love this comic. There are a few things I don't like. The fact that they are still on this gladitorial arc is annoying (until the LG shook things up). That doesn't mean that I hate the comic with a bloody passion unless it changes.

[Sky_Schemer]

I am holding out hope that Rich is going somewhere new here.

Hope is renewed. I believe Rich is going somewhere new here: I believe odds are good that this will be the end of the Linear Guild. It's just a gut feeling of course, but this particular fight is uglier and dirtier than the previous ones by a long shot, and the stakes seem much, much higher.

[TheMac04]

(My bolds)

This is a personal bugbear of mine. Why is this seen as less of a victory? I know D&D has a whole contingent of "numbercrunchers", but for me so much of the appeal lies in its complete openness. If I wanted to have one option for dealing with the enemies (batter them til they stop getting up) I would be playing a video game. Not only is the HP system a bit silly (though that's another discussion!) I feel somewhat... restricted if the one criteria for judging a character is their efficiency in direct combat.

I think the Giant often tries to demonstrate this, actually. Think of Elan's recent escape from Sabine... Imagine saying to your DM "I turn my head round and snog the succubus for a couple of rounds", they'd probably think you were nuts. But still, its a great bit of creative thinking, and just completely Elan. On the flip side, the current battle between Roy and Thog is showing just how wrong it goes when his characters try the mechanical victory. Sure, Roy's boasting in his superior brainpower, but he's hardly demonstrated a tactical advantage this fight. And, yeah, he's getting punished.

Basically, I like to see the charaters win in interesting ways. If I was DMing the fight in Dorukan's dungeon and a player tried an illusion of a female half-orc, I'd go with it. Maybe roll will save vs cooties of something. It's supposed to be fun, why can't success happen in a fun way?

[/justoneguy'sopinion]

We have a phrase for this in my playgroup: "I pee in the rat pit", taken from an instance involving a completely ridiculous abuse of the "Prestidigitation" ability. The idea of using alternate means and seeing how much your game master will let you get away with is half the fun of DnD. A good DM lets the players have fun with themselves. As long as it doesn't completely break the game, it makes things far more interesting. Rich captures this concept beautifully.

[TheMac04]

Again, I don't see why competence removes the possibility of being a "person". Are well-trained soldiers "just characters" and only totally incompetent, untrained emergency conscripts "people"? Is total, absolute, inevitable stupidity and incompetence needed to be interesting?

I'll give you an example here. The fight in the Azure City throne room. Xykon and Redcloak were considerably more competent than the Order is -- yet the struggle was still epic and they still essentially lost. It didn't seem any less interesting because those who lost the fight were halfway competent and dangerous -- it made their defeat seem more dramatic and fulfilling. A fight between competent foes, even if the ones we are rooting for lose, it much preferable to watching clowns being pummelled hopelessly.

The Order are total losers, plain and simple. Their decisions are just plain awful and some of them are so dumb that a kindergartner might do better planning them out.

In short, it's frustrating because they're so totally worthless in a fight in practically every way, yet you know that some weird thing is likely to come out of nowhere and snatch their doddering, incompetent bacon out of the fire (see also: Thor vs. Leaky).

I don't mind if they're shown as being dumb as a box of rocks and totally incapable of handling themselves in a fight at all. But in that case, I also want them to have the everliving daylights pounded out of them in no uncertain terms.

It's fine to have flaws -- it's necessary for a story. It's fine for there to be occasional setbacks and defeats. But I don't think that a character needs to be one big unmitigated flaw to be interesting. I mean, if you had a character who wanted to be a military sniper in a book, but was blind, quadruplegic, and can never hit anything that he shoots at by pulling the trigger with his nose, how many times can you read about him missing again, and again, and again, and again, and again, before it starts to drive you nuts?

And it's even worse if he always miraculously makes "the shots that count" despite not being able to see or even aim his rifle. I don't care about the Thor thing because it was funny, but I don't want them to get a free pass out of the situations that their utter idiocy inflicts on them EVERY time, because it gets just as dull as their winning easily every time.

That's the level of personal futility we're reaching with the Order here.

Since it's too late for them to logically win the fight, I want them to lose it -- thoroughly, completely, and fatally. It's fine if they're raised, but they're such irritating clods and hopeless losers that there should be some consequences to being way, way, way ,way in over their heads.

...Do you even like this strip at all?

[Mutant Sheep]

...Do you even like this strip at all?

He might. Might love hating it, might like the jokes but despise the characters, might hate the jokes and the characters, or he has the best sarcasm ever known.

[MagusBloodsoak]

I love the comic, and I'm frustrated no end by some of the railroad plot turns. I don't see how that is incompatible with someone liking the comic. You don't need to like every part of it. I like my friends, but when they're being morons I point it out.

The comic overall is excellent.

Some of the writing decisions are bad/inconsistent/frustrating or all of the above. Sometimes those things are fixed/clarified retrospectively (like Xykon's "escapable" forcecage). Others are beyond fixing, and just rub the wrong way.

I'm actually not especially bothered by the current storyline, I'm speaking more generally. I think everyone loves Tarquin, is glad to see Z back, and enjoyed Thog looking like the Hulk. I'm less enthused about V's dumb decisions, since V is my favourite character on the whole. Some of V's dumb decisions are a charming part of the character (for example, the ridiculous decision to specialize in evokation!), while others are just plain inconsistent with his/her character to date.

[TheMac04]

I love the comic, and I'm frustrated no end by some of the railroad plot turns. I don't see how that is incompatible with someone liking the comic. You don't need to like every part of it. I like my friends, but when they're being morons I point it out.

The comic overall is excellent.

Some of the writing decisions are bad/inconsistent/frustrating or all of the above. Sometimes those things are fixed/clarified retrospectively (like Xykon's "escapable" forcecage). Others are beyond fixing, and just rub the wrong way.

I'm actually not especially bothered by the current storyline, I'm speaking more generally. I think everyone loves Tarquin, is glad to see Z back, and enjoyed Thog looking like the Hulk. I'm less enthused about V's dumb decisions, since V is my favourite character on the whole. Some of V's dumb decisions are a charming part of the character (for example, the ridiculous decision to specialize in evokation!), while others are just plain inconsistent with his/her character to date.

Okay see, now compare your more minor criticisms here to the lengthy take-down of the main characters, calling them all idiots who deserve to be killed here, and tell me it's on the same level. I'm not arguing that you don't have a point, and granted what I said was already semi-tongue in cheek in the first place, but I find it a little bit hard to believe that someone could be so vehemently opposed to the way the protagonists are written and still enjoy the strip. The focus is on them, so you're going to have to put up with something that annoys you a LOT.

I remember a quote from some long-forgotten thread on a GameFAQS board many years ago that went something like this:

A friend of mine said to me "I like Shadow of the Colossus, except for the boss battles." I had to wonder what exactly he was playing for.

Perfect analogy? Of course not, but I guess I'm just throwing ideas around and seeing what sticks. I do that.

[Dvandemon]

Hey now, no one like to see their team lose, but believe me, the whole thing will be better for it. Get over this bump in the road, are you going to give up on everything now?

Why couldn't you talk about this in any of the discussion threads?

[Cizak]

You're right. Here, let me give you the version of how the boring ass story should go!

:roy:: Okay guys, Xykon knows where the Gate is, and we don't. Any ideas?
:elan:: How about I ask my dad? He's an important guy after all, and should know something.
:roy: Good idea! Ask him!
:elan: Dad, do you know where the Gate is?
Tarquin: No, but I do know this Girard guy! He knows! Hey Girard! Tell these protagonists where the Gate is so they can help you defend it against this lich coming for it!
Girard: Okey dokey. Hey kids! Nice to see someone trying to help me. Follow me to the gate!
:roy::Awesome!
Girard: Oh and Tarquin. Your son is here. He's hiding behind that pillar over there.
Tarquin: Cool. I'll have him arrested. Anyway, take care kids! We'll see each other some day!
:elan::Bye dad!
*Later*
:xykon:: So we're finally here at the Gate. Awesome. Redcloak, let's get to wo-
Order + Girard: SURPRISE UNAVOIDABLE LICH TARGETING ATTACK!
:xykon:: What the-!? *body destroyed*
:redcloak:: Well, chucks. I sure know I can't win against you, so here. Take the phylactery, Xykon's soul is inside.
:roy:: Cool. *Destroys phylactery*
:xykon:: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
The end!

You're welcome.

[Mutant Sheep]

You're right. Here, let me give you the version of how the boring ass story should go!

:roy:: Okay guys, Xykon knows where the Gate is, and we don't. Any ideas?
:elan:: How about I ask my dad? He's an important guy after all, and should know something.
:roy: Good idea! Ask him!
:elan: Dad, do you know where the Gate is?
Tarquin: No, but I do know this Girard guy! He knows! Hey Girard! Tell these protagonists where the Gate is so they can help you defend it against this lich coming for it!
Girard: Okey dokey. Hey kids! Nice to see someone trying to help me. Follow me to the gate!
:roy::Awesome!
Girard: Oh and Tarquin. Your son is here. He's hiding behind that pillar over there.
Tarquin: Cool. I'll have him arrested. Anyway, take care kids! We'll see each other some day!
:elan::Bye dad!
*Later*
:xykon:: So we're finally here at the Gate. Awesome. Redcloak, let's get to wo-
Order + Girard: SURPRISE UNAVOIDABLE LICH TARGETING ATTACK!
:xykon:: What the-!? *body destroyed*
:redcloak:: Well, chucks. I sure know I can't win against you, so here. Take the phylactery, Xykon's soul is inside.
:roy:: Cool. *Destroys phylactery*
:xykon:: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
The end!

You're welcome.
That actually seems awesome. You can tell it's a different story though, because you didn't mention Banjo OR O-Chul.:smalltongue:

[Boogastreehouse]

I can't really speak for Seth, but what you have posted can be said of just about any twisting plot point that happens in this comic. I mean, of course they're relevant. Everything that happens in this comic is relevant. But for some, it feels like we are getting an extra-long, drawn out scene. The lack of updates that happend made it seem worse (in fact, that may be why it seems more drawn out than before). As I said, I couldn't wait until they left the gladitorial arena, but Nale has thwarted my plan.

(Emphasis mine)

This is sort of my point. Every plot has had some tangents, and those tangents sometimes seemed to be rather drawn out when we only got to read one page every so often.

Looking back at them all together, they seem (to me) to be paced very well.

I'm confident that when we are looking back at this arc of the story, the pacing will seem to be just fine.

[Winthur]

Can we please get past the whole "The Order sucks and can't competently fight off any of their enemies" theme? It's really annoying.

Well, it's a humorous comic strip about a bunch of inept adventurers, so incompetence and repetitive failures...

:smallcool:

...are in Order.

[Mutant Sheep]

Well, it's a humorous comic strip about a bunch of inept adventurers, so incompetence and repetitive failures...

:smallcool:

...are in Order.

It burns! Make it stop! Make the puns stop! Why would you DO that? It burns!

[Blisstake]

I love the comic, and I'm frustrated no end by some of the railroad plot turns.

I'm sorry, but isn't every story (except choose your own adventures) technically railroaded, since there's nothing that can be done to influence the plot?

[TheLaughingMan]

You're welcome.

Where's the face-palm smiley?

EDIT: ^ Not necessarily. A plot can be railroaded in the sense of "X needs to happen so Y can happen, so X is unavoidable, no matter how many other, saner solutions exist."

[EmperorSarda]

The devil just wanted to be left alone, and Qarr's instructions were that he wanted "all mortals on this island dead". If they'd ran for the boats and rowed away, the devil, adept as all devils are at twisting contracts, would have had no problem heading back to Hell. As it was, their preoccupation with combating the fiend - a preoccupation bordering on zealotry in the SG's and Durkon's case, and barreling over the border into pure egoism in V's - prevented them from intervening in Kubota's plans on the fleet, and led directly to V's Fall.

Except they in no way knew that Qarr's instructions were to kill all mortals on the island, thus they could not have reacted as such. They still ended up winning though.

[Mutant Sheep]

Except they in no way knew that Qarr's instructions were to kill all mortals on the island, thus they could not have reacted as such. They still ended up winning though.

But it was a devil! On the island! They should have guessed that it would leave them alone if they ran away! Its the only choice that makes any sense!
But yeah, considering how low that demon/devil's intelligence/wisdom was, I don't think he'd be good at using loopholes anyway, and would still chase them if Qarr told him too.

[EmperorSarda]

But it was a devil! On the island! They should have guessed that it would leave them alone if they ran away! Its the only choice that makes any sense!
But yeah, considering how low that demon/devil's intelligence/wisdom was, I don't think he'd be good at using loopholes anyway, and would still chase them if Qarr told him too.

"Hey, lets run to the boats where the devil can sink us easily with Meteor Swarms!" is a better idea than fighting?

Yes, it is a devil summoned on the island. And as far as the Order and Paladins knew, summoned to kill them all, not kill everyone on the island. Whether it would or would not chase them is irrelevant to the fact that the Order thought that running would not evade the devil.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah, it's not as if the devil asked, quite loudly and not serruptitiously at all, for its assailants to "just leave [him] alone". And this after they had been battering at it for some time, after it had just felt Crushing Despair. And it's not like it hadn't been giving them the chance to run: its attack on V, for instance, should have been fatal, yet dealt no discernable, visible damage. It was bloodthirstiness and the desire to torment the devil that kept the Order and the Guard there, and nothing more.

:smallwink:

[EmperorSarda]

Yeah, it's not as if the devil asked, quite loudly and not serruptitiously at all, for its assailants to "just leave [him] alone". And this after they had been battering at it for some time, after it had just felt Crushing Despair. And it's not like it hadn't been giving them the chance to run: its attack on V, for instance, should have been fatal, yet dealt no discernable, visible damage. It was bloodthirstiness and the desire to torment the devil that kept the Order and the Guard there, and nothing more.

:smallwink:

Hahaha. I hope others get your sarcasm too.

[MagusBloodsoak]

I prefer railroad plots that don't fly in the face of previous logic and narrative, because they're cool or whatever.

Good example from Supernatural. I've almost never seen the show, but some friend of mine insists we watch some of it... it's like, the first ep or so of season 2 I think? Anyway, the father (who appears to have behaved in a way that makes no logical sense, and crosses over into child abuse) has been hunting this demon all his life (because it killed his wife), but he's never been able to find him. Within the last 6 months or so he's obtained a magic gun with magic bullets that can kill anything, including this demon. He spends some time adventuring with his sons, during which time they use up 5 of the 6 magic bullets (that cannot be replenished), and they have a mishap whereby the sons are hurt in a car crash, one is dying.

The father is at the hospital, and decides to sacrifice himself to save his son. So he uses the summoning spell he's apparently known all along to summon the demon, threatening the demon with his magic gun, and offers to trade the magic gun and bullets (and himself) in exchange for saving his son.

As I'm sure most of you noticed, this makes no logical sense. "Why the hell didn't he summon the demon and kill him before he was down to 1 bullet! Or years ago?!"

Oh, and the magic gun? They apparently find a way to get more bullets for it later. Bah. :smallannoyed:

[TheMac04]

That might have...made sense in context? Probably not. Sounds like a stupid show.

[sims796]

I prefer railroad plots that don't fly in the face of previous logic and narrative, because they're cool or whatever.

Good example from Supernatural. I've almost never seen the show, but some friend of mine insists we watch some of it... it's like, the first ep or so of season 2 I think? Anyway, the father (who appears to have behaved in a way that makes no logical sense, and crosses over into child abuse) has been hunting this demon all his life (because it killed his wife), but he's never been able to find him. Within the last 6 months or so he's obtained a magic gun with magic bullets that can kill anything, including this demon. He spends some time adventuring with his sons, during which time they use up 5 of the 6 magic bullets (that cannot be replenished), and they have a mishap whereby the sons are hurt in a car crash, one is dying.

The father is at the hospital, and decides to sacrifice himself to save his son. So he uses the summoning spell he's apparently known all along to summon the demon, threatening the demon with his magic gun, and offers to trade the magic gun and bullets (and himself) in exchange for saving his son.

As I'm sure most of you noticed, this makes no logical sense. "Why the hell didn't he summon the demon and kill him before he was down to 1 bullet! Or years ago?!"

Oh, and the magic gun? They apparently find a way to get more bullets for it later. Bah. :smallannoyed:
I enjoy Supernatural, and that is easily the best interpretation of the show.

[Warmage]

That might have...made sense in context? Probably not. Sounds like a stupid show.

It didnt make more sense in context. The ability to summon the demon never came up beore or since. And dealing with other demons later on proved that he could have made the deal and then killed the demon right away. The deal will sill be good (managed by another demon) and he would have gotten revenge and saved his other son from said demon's plot. But wooo railroad!

Back on topic, the same paladins that mercilessly slaughter "usually evil" goblin children would not leave an "always evil" demon (with the evil subtype even) to wreak havoc, regardless of where it is.

[Timberboar]

But wooo railroad!

Let's not confuse railroads with plot holes large enough to drive a train through.

[Warmage]

Let's not confuse railroads with plot holes large enough to drive a train through.

Granted, you can't exactly railroad without players. Stories go in that direction because the players can't decide for it not to, so yeah giant plot hole.

On another topic, Timberboar, your avatar and sig are awesome!

[Timberboar]

On another topic, Timberboar, your avatar and sig are awesome!

Heh, thanks. My responses to it have been pretty evenly split between "That's awesome!" and "That's sick!"

*cough* Now then, back to the topic at hand...

[Klear]

Heh, thanks. My responses to it have been pretty evenly split between "That's awesome!" and "That's sick!"

It¨s both...

[TheMac04]

Heh, thanks. My responses to it have been pretty evenly split between "That's awesome!" and "That's sick!"

*cough* Now then, back to the topic at hand...

I like Celia, and I still think it's pretty funny.

...What was the topic at hand again?

[MagusBloodsoak]

Unfortunately some of the plotting/fights in OOTS are similarly illogical, and seem to exist only to push the story in the desired direction, when one could wish they had done that without stepping all over logic and details.

[TheMac04]

Unfortunately some of the plotting/fights in OOTS are similarly illogical, and seem to exist only to push the story in the desired direction, when one could wish they had done that without stepping all over logic and details.

Perhaps it is not a flawlessly written story, but I think it is not nearly as bad as the example you mentioned, which was pretty absurd.

[snikrept]

Perhaps it is not a flawlessly written story, but I think it is not nearly as bad as the example you mentioned, which was pretty absurd.Welllll... there was that bit about the giant diamond from the cast page :smallbiggrin: If she can go get a diamond from the cast page why can't she go get her bow from there when she needs it in Greysky City? Yeh yeh, only when it's funny... the plot absurdity is there in OOTS but it's embraced instead of ignored. It's supposed to be absurd at some level.

[FujinAkari]

Welllll... there was that bit about the giant diamond from the cast page :smallbiggrin: If she can go get a diamond from the cast page why can't she go get her bow from there when she needs it in Greysky City?

Because that was the same bow she had been in the strip, whereas the diamond had NEVER been featured in the strip and therefore could be grabbed from the cast page without breaking continuity.

It is fringe logic, but it works :P


Unfortunately some of the plotting/fights in OOTS are similarly illogical, and seem to exist only to push the story in the desired direction, when one could wish they had done that without stepping all over logic and details.

Examples?

[MagusBloodsoak]

Not alot of the plots bother me to be honest. But some stick out, and in all honesty they involve one of the most well written characters, Xykon.

He's really well written, but the rule of cool seems to govern some of his fights (against V, against Dorukan, against Lirian) in ways that are just plain annoying and unnecessary. Xykon could have seemed cool without needing to make the fights implausibly dumb. I liked parts of them mind you, but parts were just head shake material.

[FujinAkari]

Not alot of the plots bother me to be honest. But some stick out, and in all honesty they involve one of the most well written characters, Xykon.

He's really well written, but the rule of cool seems to govern some of his fights (against V, against Dorukan, against Lirian) in ways that are just plain annoying and unnecessary. Xykon could have seemed cool without needing to make the fights implausibly dumb. I liked parts of them mind you, but parts were just head shake material.

I guess I just don't see it...

How is Xykon beating Lirian because he is immune to the type of magic she uses implausible? Durokan is the same way... the dude came out of his sanctuary and straight into a trap...

As for V... V lost that fight himself. He went in with no plan and no caution, and he paid for it. I just don't see how ANY of those are annoying or unnecessary.

[TheMac04]

Yeah, I'd like to see some examples of what exactly you seem to think is absurd, but WASN'T played for laughs.

[MagusBloodsoak]

Whatever logical problem I will point out in response for these fights, you're just going to say something like "they weren't thinking clearly, which is the message the author was trying to make us understand". I see little to no evidence guys like Dorukan and V are mind boggling stupid, and much evidence to the contrary, so I expect competent fights out of them, not railroad victories.

[TheMac04]

Whatever logical problem I will point out in response for these fights, you're just going to say something like "they weren't thinking clearly, which is the message the author was trying to make us understand". I see little to no evidence guys like Dorukan and V are mind boggling stupid, and much evidence to the contrary, so I expect competent fights out of them, not railroad victories.

That is a pretty big leap to say that you know what I'm going to say.

[Zmflavius]

Whatever logical problem I will point out in response for these fights, you're just going to say something like "they weren't thinking clearly, which is the message the author was trying to make us understand". I see little to no evidence guys like Dorukan and V are mind boggling stupid, and much evidence to the contrary, so I expect competent fights out of them, not railroad victories.

WTF? Did you expect Dorukan to be thinking clearly in the situation he was in? Why don't I drive over to your house and torture your wife/gf and see if you're thinking clearly? In regards to V, the guy is a mid-level caster who suddenly gained epic-level abilities, but without any of the bells and whistles which, you know, make them workable. Think about it this way: Can you imagine Xykon being surprised by a mid-level caster being epic teleported into his lair and then tripping the traps he'd set?

[FujinAkari]

Whatever logical problem I will point out in response for these fights, you're just going to say something like "they weren't thinking clearly, which is the message the author was trying to make us understand". I see little to no evidence guys like Dorukan and V are mind boggling stupid, and much evidence to the contrary, so I expect competent fights out of them, not railroad victories.

Welp, since you refuse to support your argument with evidence, then I will accept your concession.

It was nice debating with you.

[zimmerwald1915]

Whatever logical problem I will point out in response for these fights, you're just going to say something like "they weren't thinking clearly, which is the message the author was trying to make us understand". I see little to no evidence guys like Dorukan and V are mind boggling stupid, and much evidence to the contrary, so I expect competent fights out of them, not railroad victories.
Can't speak to Dorukan, but part of the humor associated with V is that despite her listed intelligence she does, in fact, act mind-bogglingly stupidly.

[FujinAkari]

Can't speak to Dorukan, but part of the humor associated with V is that despite her listed intelligence she does, in fact, act mind-bogglingly stupidly.

Again... can you please support your argument instead of simply stating it? V has never acted mind-bogglingly stupid to my recollection.

[zimmerwald1915]

Again... can you please support your argument instead of simply stating it? V has never acted mind-bogglingly stupid to my recollection.
AFK at the moment (posting from a phone), but without trawling through the archives I can think of at least four. The first was taking the bottlecap collection instead of the gold at the Weary Travellers' Inn. Yes, she played it off as not having enough information, but she neglected, apparently, to peek in the top. Second, she concocted her half-baked theory about Belkar's "proto-brain" from cherrypicked evidence and her own prejudices. She then made the decision, based on this half-baked theory, to engage in a ill-advised and counterproductive feud with Belkar over the course of weeks. Third, as ABD pointed out, she neglected to shield herself from her enemies, or naievely assumed she hadn't made any over the course of her adventures. This even though she was perfectly aware there was a second dragon associated with Starmetal Cave, and that the Oracle was associated with Tiamat. Fourth, she accepted the IFCC's offer.

While all these can be recast as a result of extenuating circumstances, low wisdom, prejudice, or arrogance, the fact remains that V's intelligence does not prevent her from making bad, counterproductive, dare I say stupid decisions.

[Tebryn]

AFK at the moment (posting from a phone), but without trawling through the archives I can think of at least four. The first was taking the bottlecap collection instead of the gold at the Weary Travellers' Inn. Yes, she played it off as not having enough information, but she neglected, apparently, to peek in the top.

The inn was on -fire-. She didn't have time to check what could reasonably be assumed to be the coins he was looking for.


Second, she concocted her half-baked theory about Belkar's "proto-brain" from cherrypicked evidence and her own prejudices. She then made the decision, based on this half-baked theory, to engage in a ill-advised and counterproductive feud with Belkar over the course of weeks.

This has not been disproved -at all- yet.


Third, as ABD pointed out, she neglected to shield herself from her enemies, or naievely assumed she hadn't made any over the course of her adventures. This even though she was perfectly aware there was a second dragon associated with Starmetal Cave, and that the Oracle was associated with Tiamat.

1. She knew he had enemies, she just didn't think about the dragon. Not stupid, forgetful at best.

2. I do believe they said the second dragon was -dead- or gone for some time. Not stupid to not worry about that. It'd be paranoid to do otherwise.

3. What does the Oracle and Tiamat have to do with -anything- where V is concerned. She doesn't have knowledge Religion you're aware? He'd be totally unable to make the connection if she even seemed to know about the Southern Gods which she doesn't. She's not concerned about Deites, he's concerned about magic.


Fourth, she accepted the IFCC's offer.

No. No, not at all.


You're confusing -PRIDE- with stupidity, which is totally illogical. She trusts in his intelligence to a point where she thinks it won't ever effect him. That's not -stupid- it's merely pridefull. And pride cometh before the fall as they say which is the whole bloody trope we're going with here.


While all these can be recast as a result of extenuating circumstances, low wisdom, prejudice, or arrogance, the fact remains that V's intelligence does not prevent her from making bad, counterproductive, dare I say stupid decisions.

That doesn't mean he's stupid. People make bad decisions all the time, that doesn't make the stupid either.

[Zmflavius]

[QUOTE]Second, she concocted her half-baked theory about Belkar's "proto-brain" from cherrypicked evidence and her own prejudices. She then made the decision, based on this half-baked theory, to engage in a ill-advised and counterproductive feud with Belkar over the course of weeks.

This has not been disproved -at all- yet.
[QUOTE]

I do agree with the majority of your points, but this theory is very shaky, and of dubious validity. Belkar's relationship with Mr. Scruffy, and some of his recent actions in the comic, go straight against said theory, unless we are to assume one of two unlikely possibilities: That Belkar's brain has evolved, or that he lusts after Mr. Scruffy and Enor.

[Tebryn]

One exception does not invalidate all the other examples of the rule.

[FujinAkari]

AFK at the moment (posting from a phone), but without trawling through the archives I can think of at least four. The first was taking the bottlecap collection instead of the gold at the Weary Travellers' Inn. Yes, she played it off as not having enough information, but she neglected, apparently, to peek in the top.

The inn was on -fire-, every second counted and besides, it wasn't V's gold, it was Haley. V didn't care -what- was in the sack and attached no value to it.


Second, she concocted her half-baked theory about Belkar's "proto-brain" from cherrypicked evidence and her own prejudices. She then made the decision, based on this half-baked theory, to engage in a ill-advised and counterproductive feud with Belkar over the course of weeks.

That would be a joke.


Third, as ABD pointed out, she neglected to shield herself from her enemies, or naievely assumed she hadn't made any over the course of her adventures. This even though she was perfectly aware there was a second dragon associated with Starmetal Cave, and that the Oracle was associated with Tiamat.

So she didn't shield herself from a possible enemy which there was absolulely no evidence of being pursued by... and what does Tiamat have to do with anything? The Oracle gave the dragon information the same as ANY OTHER person who goes to him.


Fourth, she accepted the IFCC's offer.

That is an issue of pride, not stupidity.

[Mutant Sheep]

AFK at the moment (posting from a phone), but without trawling through the archives I can think of at least four. The first was taking the bottlecap collection instead of the gold at the Weary Travellers' Inn. Yes, she played it off as not having enough information, but she neglected, apparently, to peek in the top. S/he could have assumed the bottlecaps could be sold for a gazillion gp, and for all we know, they might have. That guy will come back???

Second, she concocted her half-baked theory about Belkar's "proto-brain" from cherrypicked evidence and her own prejudices. She then made the decision, based on this half-baked theory, to engage in a ill-advised and counterproductive feud with Belkar over the course of weeks. IT WAS A JOKE! THIS IS A COMIC STRIP AND IT HAS FUNNY IN IT!
Third, as ABD pointed out, she neglected to shield herself from her enemies, or naievely assumed she hadn't made any over the course of her adventures. This even though she was perfectly aware there was a second dragon associated with Starmetal Cave, and that the Oracle was associated with Tiamat. 20/20 hindsight! OotS is still based on a possible campaign, and since V seems to know about the basics of the setting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html), I doubt V expected a dragon to leap from 400 strips (what would that be in sessions, a year? 2?) ago and bring V back to the party. Blargh. :smalltongue:

[MagusBloodsoak]

You've successfully baited me into slamming the author's writing. Good work.

Ok, let's take the Dorukan fight. I have Start of Darkness in front of me.
a) Dorukan is an extremely competent and experienced Epic level wizard, who has about 80-90 years of experience in magic, and has been preparing for any conceivable attack on his gate for 60 years. He has been scrying outside his gate and knows that for over a year a Lich has been trying to lure him out to fight. And remember, he knows someone destroyed Lirian's Gate and killed her, so putting 2 and 2 together, this Lich could have been the one responsible, and thus is powerful enough to overwhelm an epic Cleric and her forces. Indeed, given Lirian is reading a letter from Dorukan when Xykon surprises her, and given the two are in constant communication, it seems like Lirian probably would have mentioned the attack on her gate in the 4 months since it happened, meaning Dorukan has even more reason to be on guard.
b) Despite this we are expected to believe he has taken no precautions, like the most obvious "get negative energy protection", even though it's easy to get an item or spell to do it, and Lich's are beings of negative energy. This seems inconsistent to put it lightly. But the comedy escalates.
c) Here's a breakdown of their fight:
* Dorukan pops in with a surprise round and hits Xykon with an unnamed spell (no damage visible)
* Dorukan (assumedly using his normal round, or winning initiative?) uses Prismatic Spray... but it doesn't work because the comic is black and white (lol, so funny)
* Xykon shoots lightning (Dorukan's staff absorbs it somehow)
* Dorukan misses with a blasty spell (perhaps a spell like ability because he's an archmage, like quickened to explain the 2 successive attacks)
* Dorukan hits Xykon directly with all 4 Meteor Swarms. Now Xykon clearly isn't immune, because he takes damage for the first time in the fight... but for some reason he is barely hurt by an attack that should take the majority of his hit points.
* Dorukan gets to use Gate (it's unclear why Xykon isn't counter attacking here, maybe someone can explain if he loses his chance to attack by being knocked away or something). Dorukan summons Angels (doesn't seem like a great choice), and the Angels seem hopelessly ineffective against Xykon (why?)
* Dorukan is said to be using buffs and such during the time Xykon is holding off the Angels (obviously not very well), but [b]still isn't doing something about energy protection, or bringing in more help with conjuration, or whatever. It's really odd.
* Dorukan casts a spell and Xykon counter spells it or dispels it or something. Now we get to the really ridiculous part.
- Xykon uses energy drain.
- Dorukan's turn. He does nothing.
- Xykon uses energy drain.
- Dorukan's turn, he fires a blasty spell (that does no damage to Xykon)
- Xykon uses energy drain.
- Dorukan falls out of the sky for no apparent reason. And 1) I don't think energy drain works like that, to cancel spells already in effect, and 2) even if it cancelled his overland flight spell, he should just drift to the ground from there slowly and without harm, so that makes no sense.
- Xykon uses energy drain
- Xykon again uses energy drain.

Now I'm no big D&D expert, but it seems like the fight flagrantly violates the basic rules here. Maybe some people are fine with that, I get the odd joke is nice, but the comic also holds itself for it's association and similarity to the rules, it's a big part of the story and fights, so to suddenly have Xykon win in this unnecessarily cheap manner just seems like bad story telling. In addition, it makes Dorukan seem like an idiot.

Now, if you like I can get to V as well, starting with how he uses lightning to hurt a Lich, even though he has a great depth of arcane knowledge, books, and 60 years of study under his belt, and he was hired by Roy over a year ago to fight a lich! We are to believe he hasn't even bothered to look up their immunity to electricity in this time?! It's absurd. The fight is full of absurdity, though aside from 1-2 pages it's quite entertaining. Xykon's level also seems to be retrospectively increased from "around 20" (evidence for this including Durkon being able to dispel the dragon's invisibility), all the way up to 27-32 just so he could win the fight. I find that wholly unsatisfying.

[Tebryn]

So your argument is that the fight didn't go like a D&D fight should, so it's bad?

[MagusBloodsoak]

The comic is supposed to be by and large a reflection of D&D rules... humour is thrown in, but it's not meant to be decisive. It would be fine for Xykon to win, but winning in a way that discards both the rules and common sense seems lazy and bad writing.

You set up a context and rules and parameters for a story, people expect you to stick by them, not suddenly ignore them completely when it's no longer convenient.

Heck, the author even provided a round by round breakdown of the Miko v.s Order fight that was realistic and entertaining. That's the sort of thing people come to expect in the comic, because it's the standard you hold yourself to. Then you produce stuff like ... that... and it looks shoddy. I don't care if you liked it, it's still weak writing.

[FujinAkari]

You've successfully baited me into slamming the author's writing. Good work.

Ok, let's take the Dorukan fight. I have Start of Darkness in front of me.
a) Dorukan is an extremely competent and experienced Epic level wizard, who has about 80-90 years of experience in magic, and has been preparing for any conceivable attack on his gate for 60 years. He has been scrying outside his gate and knows that for over a year a Lich has been trying to lure him out to fight. And remember, he knows someone destroyed Lirian's Gate and killed her, so putting 2 and 2 together, this Lich could have been the one responsible, and thus is powerful enough to overwhelm an epic Cleric and her forces. Indeed, given Lirian is reading a letter from Dorukan when Xykon surprises her, and given the two are in constant communication, it seems like Lirian probably would have mentioned the attack on her gate in the 4 months since it happened, meaning Dorukan has even more reason to be on guard.
b) Despite this we are expected to believe he has taken no precautions, like the most obvious "get negative energy protection", even though it's easy to get an item or spell to do it, and Lich's are beings of negative energy. This seems inconsistent to put it lightly. But the comedy escalates.
c) Here's a breakdown of their fight:
* Dorukan pops in with a surprise round and hits Xykon with an unnamed spell (no damage visible)
* Dorukan (assumedly using his normal round, or winning initiative?) uses Prismatic Spray... but it doesn't work because the comic is black and white (lol, so funny)
* Xykon shoots lightning (Dorukan's staff absorbs it somehow)
* Dorukan misses with a blasty spell (perhaps a spell like ability because he's an archmage, like quickened to explain the 2 successive attacks)
* Dorukan hits Xykon directly with all 4 Meteor Swarms. Now Xykon clearly isn't immune, because he takes damage for the first time in the fight... but for some reason he is barely hurt by an attack that should take the majority of his hit points.
* Dorukan gets to use Gate (it's unclear why Xykon isn't counter attacking here, maybe someone can explain if he loses his chance to attack by being knocked away or something). Dorukan summons Angels (doesn't seem like a great choice), and the Angels seem hopelessly ineffective against Xykon (why?)
* Dorukan is said to be using buffs and such during the time Xykon is holding off the Angels (obviously not very well), but [b]still isn't doing something about energy protection, or bringing in more help with conjuration, or whatever. It's really odd.
* Dorukan casts a spell and Xykon counter spells it or dispels it or something. Now we get to the really ridiculous part.
- Xykon uses energy drain.
- Dorukan's turn. He does nothing.
- Xykon uses energy drain.
- Dorukan's turn, he fires a blasty spell (that does no damage to Xykon)
- Xykon uses energy drain.
- Dorukan falls out of the sky for no apparent reason. And 1) I don't think energy drain works like that, to cancel spells already in effect, and 2) even if it cancelled his overland flight spell, he should just drift to the ground from there slowly and without harm, so that makes no sense.
- Xykon uses energy drain
- Xykon again uses energy drain.

Now I'm no big D&D expert, but it seems like the fight flagrantly violates the basic rules here. Maybe some people are fine with that, I get the odd joke is nice, but the comic also holds itself for it's association and similarity to the rules, it's a big part of the story and fights, so to suddenly have Xykon win in this unnecessarily cheap manner just seems like bad story telling. In addition, it makes Dorukan seem like an idiot.

Now, if you like I can get to V as well, starting with how he uses lightning to hurt a Lich, even though he has a great depth of arcane knowledge, books, and 60 years of study under his belt, and he was hired by Roy over a year ago to fight a lich! We are to believe he hasn't even bothered to look up their immunity to electricity in this time?! It's absurd. The fight is full of absurdity, though aside from 1-2 pages it's quite entertaining. Xykon's level also seems to be retrospectively increased from "around 20" (evidence for this including Durkon being able to dispel the dragon's invisibility), all the way up to 27-32 just so he could win the fight. I find that wholly unsatisfying.

Holy Book-Content Explicit Spoilers Batman!

Seriously dude, not cool. :smallmad:

That said, you are blatently unfair in many of your assumptions.

-Negative Energy Protection: Durokan should explicitly protect against a spell he has never seen Xykon use? Really? You even say this twice, saying he should have protected himself midbattle despite the fact Xykon STILL hadn't cast it. I know -you- can read the whole strip, but Durokan can't. He doesn't get to look ahead and see what spells Xykon has.

- "blatent rules violations" Both of them have some degree of SR, the spells that don't work aren't being shown.

- "Its easy to get an item or a spell for negative energy protection" ... what? Is there some merchant train going into Durokan's dungeon I missed? Does he have a BAZAAR in there? He's being seiged, either he has something or he doesn't, he can't pull rings of beat Xykon out of his *censored*

- "V didn't know Lich's have electricity immunity" - Liches are extremely rare... V didn't make the DC 30 knowledge check when he was level 7... how is this a sign of stupidity? He'd have to have rolled a nat 20.

[MagusBloodsoak]

Have fixed it... haven't been around long enough to know the spoiler rules.

[Mutant Sheep]

Holy Book-Content Explicit Spoilers Batman!

Seriously dude, not cool. :smallmad:

Well, its spoilered. I knew it'd be explicit once I saw him talk about Dorukan's age and Lirian's Gate.
Don't see why it's so bad.:smallconfused:
Edit:Ohhh it wasn't spoilered before. Wow....then yeah...not cool. Yikes.:smalleek:

[Zmflavius]

You've successfully baited me into slamming the author's writing. Good work.

At the same time, we've convinced you to mount a half-way decent argument. A fair trade, especially since you've already been slamming Rich's work, but haven't bothered justifying your claims. The former is actually even more rude.


Dorukan bit


I don't have a copy of SoD at hand right now, so I'll leave this to someone else.


Now, if you like I can get to V as well, starting with how he uses lightning to hurt a Lich, even though he has a great depth of arcane knowledge, books, and 60 years of study under his belt, and he was hired by Roy over a year ago to fight a lich! We are to believe he hasn't even bothered to look up their immunity to electricity in this time?! It's absurd. The fight is full of absurdity, though aside from 1-2 pages it's quite entertaining. Xykon's level also seems to be retrospectively increased from "around 20" (evidence for this including Durkon being able to dispel the dragon's invisibility), all the way up to 27-32 just so he could win the fight. I find that wholly unsatisfying.

Your argument first and foremost assumes that V, someone who is predisposed to blast first and think later, and on top of that, has arrived in a flush of victory, would behave rationally, especially when he is wholly convinced that he is all but immortal and all-powerful. In any case, I fail to see how the chain lightning was meant to incapacitate Xykon, when there was the slightly more pressing threat of the traps and Xykon's two auxiliaries. Now, I'm no DnD expert, but I think masonry, goblins, and hobgoblins are not immune to electricity. Presumably, this is why he cast chain lightning.

In regards to my earlier point on blasting first and thinking later, this is hardly a new issue. You seem to have lumped all types of intelligence into one intelligence (while DnD does this, it does not mean at all that someone with a high intelligence score performs highly in all areas in which possessing skill earns the moniker "smart"), which would require V, whose area of expertise is being book smart, but little else, to actually go through the trouble of using a little more subtlety than simply slamming an opponent with raw power. V obviously knows intellectually that Zz'dtri is immune to sleep, but this doesn't really stop him from casting it and realizing afterwards it didn't work.

This really is not surprising, because V's own design reflects his attitude to head towards a problem by blasting it until it falls apart. His repertoire is almost entirely blaster. His reaction to any perceived insult is to assault the offender with magic. His philosophy on life is that a glass cannon can overwhelm all else, by virtue of it being a cannon. The bit about it being glass is entirely ignored. Hence, V regards himself as all-powerful and immortal while in the soul-splice. What little caution he ever possessed has been cast aside.

And Xykon? The sorcerer who's had nothing to do for four months except craft magical items? Putting aside how even a pre-timeskip Xykon could probably crush V, do you really think that Xykon, lazy as he is, would spend the entire four month timeskip doing nothing but play Yahtzee, watch O-chul battle sharks, and torture mooks for the fun of it? The fight was never winnable for V because his overall power was always less than Xykon's, and this is making the wholly unsatisfying assumption that Xykon would make a special effort to spend four months avoiding any activities which could possibly generate xp.

Oh, and the fight was only two pages long. What's your point about there only being one or two pages of it being entertaining?

[MagusBloodsoak]

That said, in addition to being exceedingly rude to the rest of the forumers and having no apparent concern for ruining things, you also are blatently unfair in many of your assumptions.
Oh go and get the worlds smallest violin. I said I preferred not to discuss it, and you basically dared me to.


-Negative Energy Protection: Durokan should explicitly protect against a spell he has never seen Xykon use? Really? You even say this twice, saying he should have protected himself midbattle despite the fact Xykon STILL hadn't cast it. I know -you- can read the whole strip, but Durokan can't. He doesn't get to look ahead and see what spells Xykon has.
Lich's are beings of negative energy. Energy drain is also an exceeding common attack, and exceedingly easy to get around, be it from magic or wights or whatever (yes, he can spend some of that "over 1 year under siege" obtaining things with extreme ease, like summoning people, or sending his help off to get it, or forging items which he has to be able to do to make the gates, etc). He's been preparing for over 60 years, and has done nothing about it? Makes no real sense. In addition, after Xykon hits him with the first one, he knows Xykon has it, which means anyone with any intelligence realises "oops, I'm screwed if this keeps going" and then addresses the problem... he doesn't 'do nothing'.

You also ignore most of the problems I pointed out, and seem confused about what Epic Wizards should be able to do.


- "V didn't know Lich's have electricity immunity" - Liches are extremely rare... V didn't make the DC 30 knowledge check when he was level 7... how is this a sign of stupidity? He'd have to have rolled a nat 20.
V has had over a year to research about Lich's, access to magic libraries, oracles, the 60 years of study under his master. He took a job to vanquish a lich without bothering to find out anything about what a lich was, or what it was weak to. That's too implausible.