positive/negative energy

[Graha013]

I am having trouble finding information and uses on positive and negative energy. Everything seems to be solely described as holy or unholy, however negative energy is used when describing/affecting/being affected by necromancy or undead. But otherwise, it kind of...stops.

If something had an aura of positive energy or negative energy, and it wasn't discussed in a "religious" overtone of holy and unholy - does it exist?? Could one imbue a weapon with a negative energy aura to affect something? Like overcoming a magic immunity, etc?

I appreciate any ideas, thoughts, helps on this. I'm working on a class build and describing/developing/creating mechanics is pretty much pointless, so we're working on avoiding it. But holy/unholy is not the ...ying/yang we are going for.

Thanks!

[Psyren]

Sure: Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) is an arcane spell with neither moral nor religious overtones.

As for a class that plays with negative/positive energy, take a look at the Shadow Sun Ninja in ToB and see if you can borrow some mechanics from that.

[Ravens_cry]

Disrupt Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm) is an arcane spell that hurts undead using positive energy, but without religious overtones.

[Graha013]

Thanks to both responses. Here's what I've got in return:

Psyren:
Sure: Enervation is an arcane spell with neither moral nor religious overtones.

As for a class that plays with negative/positive energy, take a look at the Shadow Sun Ninja in ToB and see if you can borrow some mechanics from that.

I'll look at ToB since I've got it around. I've mostly glanced at the D20 spell lists, existing mechanics for wizards and clerics, and the spell lists for both, and a lot out of Libris Mortis. Enervation as a spell-like ability 1/day would be neat later in the class - and the class is supposed to be the moral neutral between positive and negative energy. Finding ways to heal people/hurt undead are simple. Finding something negative, but not unholy/evil, like enervation - takes some digging/reading.

Ravens_cry
Disrupt Undead is an arcane spell that hurts undead using positive energy, but without religious overtones.

Another great spell - and kind of is my point in asking for help. Randomly, randomly, you'll get something like enervate or DU that pops in the mention of the positive and negative energy planes. I bet I can run through the MM and find beings that dwell on these planes too - but there isn't much about manipulating said energies. Except that positive energy is typically that which heals us, and negative energy is what heals undead.

Does it even make sense (is it useful) to have an aura that adds (positive) or (negative) as a descriptor to your weapon/attack to overcome immunity? I can't tell - because for all I know there is nothing that is actually immune to pos/neg and therefore..no!

Are there enough spells (not counting cures/causes) that use positive and negative energy to warrant a bonus to caster level when using those spell types?

My greatest idea? Allowing the class at late levels be able to use Hallow and Unhallow as a spell-like ability. The class is built around maintaining the balance around the two planes, and more specifically, with undead. The ability in and of itself is very niche and depends a lot on the campaign, but I've not seen it done anywhere. Kind of like sanctifying a cemetary as a noble cause sort of endeavour.

[Cerlis]

thats because one type of energy corrupts and destroys, the other strengthens and heals. even in a culture with no religion, both forms of energy would be seen as "light and dark" "good and evil" "death and life" "yin and yang"

Psionic classes use their power to tap into the Positive and negative energy to get gain benefits and use certian powers. But though an ardent COULD be religious, he gains this power regardless of how he feels about religion, he is using psionic power to "steal" or "summon" power from those planes.

besides the ardent, you also have the Illumine Soul, these warriors MAY be religious, but usually arent cus of their psionic power and they gain their ability to fight undead via a psionic tie to the positive energy plane.

[Graha013]

So, recommendations on more arcane ties to those planes? Or do psionics pretty much run the gamult of 'tapping into' said planes? I don't want the class to have a religious vibe if I can avoid it, but it is hard to define the positive plane touches without it - as, really, only clerics and paladin types do so.

[Kuma Kode]

Positive and negative energy are not technically good or evil, though they are heavily associated with the alignments.

Positive Energy but not [Good]
Cure X Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWounds.htm)
Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm)
Disrupt Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm)

Negative Energy but not [Evil]
Inflict X Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm)
Chill Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm)
Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm)
Harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm)
Touch of Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfFatigue.htm)
Waves of Exhaustion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wavesOfExhaustion.htm)
Waves of Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wavesOfFatigue.htm)
Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm)

The reason for this is because clerics typically are the ones who deal with these energies, and so they are frequently associated with the cleric's alignment and morality.

Note that negative energy has far more non-aligned spells, and they're all frequently wizard spells, too. Wizards are blocked from conventional uses of positive energy (healing), so there are no wizardly versions of this energy to counter the moral balance. Why wizards can use negative energy freely but not positive is a meta-game fact that has no fluff reason in-game.

[Graha013]

Positive and negative energy are not technically good or evil, though they are heavily associated with the alignments.

Positive Energy but not [Good]
Cure X Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWounds.htm)
Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm)
Disrupt Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm)

Negative Energy but not [Evil]
Inflict X Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm)
Chill Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm)
Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm)
Harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm)
Touch of Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfFatigue.htm)
Waves of Exhaustion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wavesOfExhaustion.htm)
Waves of Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wavesOfFatigue.htm)
Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm)

The reason for this is because clerics typically are the ones who deal with these energies, and so they are frequently associated with the cleric's alignment and morality.

Note that negative energy has far more non-aligned spells, and they're all frequently wizard spells, too. Wizards are blocked from conventional uses of positive energy (healing), so there are no wizardly versions of this energy to counter the moral balance. Why wizards can use negative energy freely but not positive is a meta-game fact that has no fluff reason in-game.

Awesome. And definitely makes this class a whole bunch harder to pull together just because of the lack of balance in spell numbers. But then again, granting a caster level bonus to that limited a number of spells would be...prudent for effectiveness without causing too much over balancing (I think).

I may post the class once I finish fleshing it out, for ridicule, accolades, suggestions, etc. It's an exercise in creativity more than anything - and I'm trying to stay as true to This (http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/media/classconstruction.pdf) as possible.

[aquaticrna]

perhaps a class ability that allows you to substitute energy damage for positive or negitive energy could help balance things a bit? not sure what the effect would be exactly, but sounds flavorful

[Graha013]

perhaps a class ability that allows you to substitute energy damage for positive or negitive energy could help balance things a bit? not sure what the effect would be exactly, but sounds flavorful

Has come up many times actually. The arguement is 'limited spell list' or 'substitute energy'...both have their merits in bringing the class together as a whole.

[aquaticrna]

no reason not to do both, you could include a number of energy spells with the caveat that their energy spells can only do positive or negitive energy damage

[Graha013]

Ok - with the great input so far, I'm going to VERY PREMATURELY post what I have for this class I'm working on. The working title is 'The Harness of Positive and Negative Energy'. It's very long and needs truncated beyond 'Harness'. Here's what I got:

Alignment: Any Neutral
Hit Die: D4
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge Religion, Knowledge The Planes, Profession, Spellcraft, UMD
Skill points 1st level: (2+int)x4
Skill points additionally: 2+int

Description:Harnesses', as they are called, are naturalistic spellcasters that study the negative and positive energy forces of the world. They understand that, like air and earth, fire and water, positive and negative energy are naturally occurring and are there for manipulation and use as any other element has been. Harnesses' go one step further, filling a void in the civilized world filled with superstitions and misconceptions, and focus their work in maintaining the natural balance of those most affected by the positive and negative
energy fields - the undead. Harnesses view undead purely as the result of positive and negative energy affecting the bodys, spirits, and souls, of the deceased. They work to right and remove malevolent forces and manipulation, such as would be found under the use of a Necromancer, but also to protect and strengthen naturally occurring areas of negative
energy, found in cemetaries, graveyards, and anywhere else a fount of negative energy may occur, from the destruction of an overly zealous Paladin or Cleric. Harnesses are as much at home creating non-sentient undead, which they view as automatons and tools and having continued useful purpose after death, as they are laying restless or malevolent spirits
to their final rest. They are typically viewed as misguided interlopers by priests and holy warriors, who typically shun their allowance and support of the negative energy forces, but even they cannot deny the effectiveness of their work when it comes to responding to dangerous undead and negative forces. On the other hand, almost all necromancers hate Harnesses', harboring deep resentment in the ease their undead are destroyed, and sometimes simply just comandeered, to serve the Harnesses' view of natural harmony.

BAB: 3/4 (Druid)
Saves: 2 good (Fort and Will)
Spells per day: As Druid

Weapon Prof: All simple weapons (as wizzies)
Armor Prof: No armor or shields (as wizzies)

Spells: Cast spontaneously (as sorc), drawing from Charisma, bonus spells can be earned based on high Charisma, etc.

Special Abilities:

Level 1. Turn and Rebuke Undead: When dealing with undead, the Harness has the ability to turn and destroy undead or rebuke and control them. He may use either power 3+Charisma modifier times per day. In addition, he may sacrifice his available spell slots per day to gain a maximum bonus of 4 turning or rebuking attempts that day. Each spell slot sacrificed is worth 1/2 a turning or rebuking attempt - count 0 level spells as 1/2 an attempt. A minimum of 2 spell levels must be sacrificed to gain 1 additional attempt per day (example: 4 level 0 slots, or 2 level 1 slots, equal 1 additional attempt). This ability stacks with other classes that grant the ability to turn/rebuke undead.

Level 1. Undead Familiar - The Harness can acquire an undead familiar as if they had taken the 'Stitched Flesh Familiar' feat (LM). The feat works the same except where noted below: The familiar does not appear stitched, merely undead. The owner must decide whether this is a skeleton or zombie familiar upon creation.

Level 2. Bi-Polar Aura, 1/day - At 2nd level, the Harness is surrounded by a fluctuating aura of positive and negative energy. Once per day, the Harness may extend this aura to affect his weapon or hands when striking. This ability applies a (positive) or (negative) descriptor to his attacks and helps him bypass magical immunity. This ability increases to 2/day at level 7, and 3/day at level 14.

Level 3. Undead Expert, +1 - The Harness gains +1 circumstantial bonus to all saves, skill checks, and attack rolls when interacting with Undead. This increases to +2 at level 9 and +3 at level 15.

Level 5. Polarized Exclusivity - The Harness excels at utilizing positive and negative energies. Because of this, he gaines a +1 to his effective level when utilizing any spell or ability that invokes the positive or negative energy plane, including turning/rebuking, controlling, animating, healing, or destroying undead. This ability increases by +1 every 5 levels after 5th, to a maximum of +4 at level 20.

Level 6. Animate Dead 1/day - As the spell, the Harness can now animate dead 1/day without spell components.

Level 7. Call for Peace - The Harness evokes a sudden surge of positive energy, laying undead in the radius to final rest per the 'Undeath to Death' spell.

Level 10. Energy Burst - The Harness can now focus their bi-polar aura into an energy burst with a 30' range. It deals positive or negative damage equal to 1d6 per 2 levels of Harnesser, for a maximum of 10d6. Using the aura in this manner requiers 2 of the daily uses of the Bi-polar aura allowed by the Harness.

Level 11. Greater Turning 1/day - The Harness can utilize their turning ability to a greater extent, and those undead that would be turned by his ability are instead destroyed.

Level 14. Touch of Undeath - as 'Enervation' spell 1/day, as a touch attack.

Level 18. Greater Hallow/Unhallow - The Harness may spend a week preparing a selected area as a special place imbued by positive or negative energy. This ability acts like the spells 'Hallow' or "Unhallow' respectively, except for the following conditions: The area of effect is expanded to 100 feet. Two spell effects (instead of one) can be tied to the hallowed site, however those spell effects cannot counter each other (i.e. bane, and bless, cannot be tied together). Finally, the spell effect 'alarm' is in constant effect during the duration of the hallow/unhallow effect, notifying the Harness if anyone adversely affected by the area has entered it's radius. This lasts the duration of the hallow/unhallow effect. Only one hallow and one unhallow created by the same Harness can be in existance at the same time. Using this ability to generate a second hallow/unhallowed area before the first one expires or is dispelled simply will not work.

Alright, I haven't even tried to balance the spelllike abilities, but let me know what you think of the flavor, mechanics, and suggestions are always welcome!.

[Kuma Kode]

You're better off probably homebrewing some spells for it, rather than trying to butcher others spells into it. For instance, "deathblast" would be far more useful than its original, fireball, because few things have Negative Energy Resistance X. Very few things have Negative Energy Immunity, too; those that do are actually healed by it. Those that do being Undead. Encounter undead, just use the opposite, a 30 ft. blast of life energy that harms undead and heals your party at the same time.

Positive energy and negative energy spells should be weaker than conventional energy spells due to the fact they are difficult to block and come with a healing side-effect. This should not be a blaster kind of class.

Also, post this in homebrew for assistance with the actual class and spells.