Wildshape Variant

[noparlpf]

This idea gives the Druid more MAD, but I like the idea better. It has to potential to make the Druid either slightly stronger or slightly weaker, depending on luck with ability rolls. I like the idea of a stronger druid being able to turn into a stronger animal than a weaker druid. Therefore, I propose a variant whereby upon Wildshaping, rather than replacing the Druid's physical ability scores with the physical ability scores of the animal into which the Druid has Wildshaped, the new physical ability scores of the Druid are based upon his own normal ability scores. Since an average humanoid's scores are all 10, take the difference between the animal's ability score and 10 and add it to the Druid's ability score. For example, a brown bear has Str 27. Say our human Druid has Str 12. When he Wildshapes into a brown bear, his total strength is 29 instead of 27 because he's slightly stronger than average humanoid. On the other hand, we have a halfling Druid with Str 9. He's fairly strong for a halfling, but when he Wildshapes into a brown bear his total strength is only 26 instead of 27 because he's a bit weaker than the average humanoid.

Thoughts?

Edit: Take the halfling example. It might seem weird for racial modifiers to remain in place while Wildshaped, but that's still the concept I had. (I just went back and checked my old notes on the idea, which I hadn't looked at before posting this. Hence some vagueness.) A halfling in bear form would be a little smaller and weaker than a human in bear form. (They would still be the same size category, the size disparity is fluff.) A half-orc in bear form would be a little bigger and stronger than the human in bear form. (The size disparity is still fluff, the stat difference is not.) I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but it looks like it's what I originally had in mind. It could make more sense to eliminate racial modifiers when Wildshaped. On the other hand, when a Druid uses Last Breath or Reincarnate to bring someone back to life, I think that that character's original racial modifiers remain in place and the new ones are just added on on top. (I'm not sure about this, but I'm currently on a computer without my rulebooks on it, so I can't check. I feel like that's how we dealt with it in games before.)

[Ursus the Grim]

This could be a pretty major nerf to wild shaping. Some might say its a good thing.

Naturally, this conflicts with the description and the spells its based off of, but I think the overwrite is inherent in the what you've proposed.

My first thought is that you almost went backwards in the description of it. Why not simply say you take the animal's racial ability modifiers to physical stats and apply them to the Druid's own scores?

Overall, I think this is more advantageous than anything else. As a lover of Wild Shape, I would be much more willing to put my 14 into Str as opposed to Intelligence, knowing it would increase attack and damage in my Shapes by two points or more.

[noparlpf]

Well, it depends on how one plays a Druid. I prefer to mostly prepare healing spells and function as a secondary healer, while using Wildshape for melee. For me, a mediocre Wisdom score is alright, and lowish Intelligence and Charisma are fine. That's why I woulds prefer this variant. It also seems fairer to me. Bears vary in physical ability just like anybody else.

Yeah, that's what they're called. Racial ability modifiers. I haven't slept that well in a few days, so I couldn't remember if there was a name for them. So I just described them in as much detail as I could.

Do you think this destroys balance at all?

[Ursus the Grim]

Well, it depends on how one plays a Druid. I prefer to mostly prepare healing spells and function as a secondary healer, while using Wildshape for melee. For me, a mediocre Wisdom score is alright, and lowish Intelligence and Charisma are fine. That's why I woulds prefer this variant. It also seems fairer to me. Bears vary in physical ability just like anybody else.

Yeah, that's what they're called. Racial ability modifiers. I haven't slept that well in a few days, so I couldn't remember if there was a name for them. So I just described them in as much detail as I could.

Do you think this destroys balance at all?

Wouldn't say it destroys it. Shakes it up a bit, maybe, but its balanced in its own way.

This is the part where someone normally comes along and shows me how wrong I am.

[erikun]

Wild Shape Variant: Aspect Of Nature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature)

The biggest problem with your system is that it just adds to the character's base stats. While this may be a slight loss if the character has an 8 Strength or so, this is a huge benefit if they have 16 or so in a stat - even moreso if they have equipment to boost their score. Suddenly, not only does the Dire Tiger have pounce for the ability to full-attack, but it can very easily end up with 36 STR. Your Druid only needs the bare minimum optimization (10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 CON) in order to be equal to the current Druid. Anything more than that actually makes your variant stronger than the current Druid.

Outside of the most extreme cases of optimization - the Venerable Anthromorphic Bat, for example - you are unlikely to see anyone with a physical stat more than -1 or -2 below average, and so the variant only pushes the abilities of Druids up.

[Taelas]

Eh. This is not really an effective nerf. It slightly reduces the druid's overall physical stats, but getting average scores isn't much of a problem -- which completely eliminates your fix. If you tanked Str and Dex--the venerable Anthropomorphic Bat example--it hurts, but that doesn't happen particularly often, in my experience.

There's also the weird issue that suddenly racial modifiers from your original race affects the forms, which makes no sense at all. A halfling's racial -2 Str shouldn't affect his strength while he's in bear form--he's no longer a halfling, after all.

[noparlpf]

The biggest problem with your system is that it just adds to the character's base stats. While this may be a slight loss if the character has an 8 Strength or so, this is a huge benefit if they have 16 or so in a stat - even moreso if they have equipment to boost their score. Suddenly, not only does the Dire Tiger have pounce for the ability to full-attack, but it can very easily end up with 36 STR. Your Druid only needs the bare minimum optimization (10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 CON) in order to be equal to the current Druid. Anything more than that actually makes your variant stronger than the current Druid.

Outside of the most extreme cases of optimization - the Venerable Anthromorphic Bat, for example - you are unlikely to see anyone with a physical stat more than -1 or -2 below average, and so the variant only pushes the abilities of Druids up.

Well, magic items boosting stats still merge into your form when you Wildshape. You still need a Wilding Clasp to use, say, your +6 Belt of Strength (something my Druids often use anyway). This isn't meant as a nerf, it's just a (hopefully) relatively balanced variant. Since the average roll for any stat is about 10, it actually slightly decreases the Druid's overall power by increasing dependency on multiple abilities.


Eh. This is not really an effective nerf. It slightly reduces the druid's overall physical stats, but getting average scores isn't much of a problem -- which completely eliminates your fix. If you tanked Str and Dex--the venerable Anthropomorphic Bat example--it hurts, but that doesn't happen particularly often, in my experience.

There's also the weird issue that suddenly racial modifiers from your original race affects the forms, which makes no sense at all. A halfling's racial -2 Str shouldn't affect his strength while he's in bear form--he's no longer a halfling, after all.

It's not meant to be a nerf, it's just an idea for a variant. It's not unbalanced because average ability rolls are around 10, and it increases dependency on multiple abilities. The normal Druid only needs a good Wis for his casting, and can just Wildshape to get better physical abilities. As far as I can see it's pretty balanced with the regular Druid.
I'm not sure about the halfling example. See the edit on the OP. That's the idea I had in mind, but you're right that it might not make sense. Someone should check up on Reincarnate or Last Breath to see what they do, since they're Druidy things that already exist.

[noparlpf]

I checked up on Reincarnate and Last Breath. The reason we didn't eliminate previous racial modifiers in my group last time I was a healer Druid was because our Cleric died so often that he went through a dozen races every night and it was too bothersome to edit his racial modifiers that often. Besides, in that case, he was hardly alive often enough for his ability scores to affect anything in the game.

So I'm not sure about including racial ability modifiers. Since this is homebrew it doesn't have to fit in with existing material, but since Reincarnate, which is the only spell I can think of that permanently changes a character's race, thus affecting racial ability modifiers, eliminates the previous racial ability modifiers, it might be better to do the same in this variant. It would be unfair to the halfling Druids, after all.
On the other hand, halflings, being naturally more agile, would probably tend towards tactics involving more agility, so they would be more likely to Wildshape into more agile (higher Dex) animals anyhow, so their Dex bonus would help out there. I should try running a one-shot where everybody has to be a Druid using this variant and everybody has to be a different race and see how it works out (because playtesting alone is really boring).

[erikun]

Since the average roll for any stat is about 10, it actually slightly decreases the Druid's overall power by increasing dependency on multiple abilities.
The problem with that logic is that, unless we are talking about 18 Point-Buy or something absurdly low, there is no dependency. Everything is going to be 10 across the board anyways. If that is the goal, then it isn't one we are reaching.

You'd probably need to modify the bonus, say to STAT - 16, in order to make the character's actual ability scores significantly matter. Because at the moment, it is actually rather difficult to end up with less than 8 in any (much less all) ability scores.

[noparlpf]

The way I get stats is actually by rolling dice. Roll 4d6, drop the lowest number, and add the other three. (You can reroll any one result once all six have been rolled, and then assign the six numbers to the six stats as desired.) I have no idea how the fourth die actually affects the statistics, but the average roll still isn't much above a 10. In my group, the average character has a couple of stats above 10, pretty often at least one 10, and usually at least one number below 10. It works out pretty well that way.

[Temet Nosce]

The way I get stats is actually by rolling dice. Roll 4d6, drop the lowest number, and add the other three. (You can reroll any one result once all six have been rolled, and then assign the six numbers to the six stats as desired.) I have no idea how the fourth die actually affects the statistics, but the average roll still isn't much above a 10. In my group, the average character has a couple of stats above 10, pretty often at least one 10, and usually at least one number below 10. It works out pretty well that way.

Presuming I recall correctly the average (ignoring the reroll) is 12.something, which means that the variant you proposed in the OP is an unambiguous buff to Druid. Not to say I wouldn't play it - but really, they don't need the help.

[Taelas]

The average results of 4d6 drop lowest is equal to 3.5 times the average result of 1d6 (which is the mean between 3 and 4; or 3.5). The result is 12.25.

I cannot explain the math, I just know it works. :smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

Is that what the average is in that case? I couldn't remember how to calculate it. I never took statistics and only briefly covered the basics of it in general math. Anyway, I think if I were running this variant I would have to go with the version where you just roll 3d6 for abilities. That at least gives an average of 10.

[Toliudar]

Have you looked at the shapeshift variant druid from Players Handbook 2? It gives a lot of access to alternate forms (from level 1), and all of those forms build off of the base druid's physical stats, which is what you were talking about in your original post - a strong druild's bear form being stronger than a weak druid's. The overall stats are quite a lot lower, and you lose some other significant benefits (Natural Spell, the animal companion), but it's a fun option for a class that, as previously noted, really doesn't need the help. Especially if you're going to be popping in and out of forms many times a day.