Wightocalypse: Why should normal energy drain bring back the victim as a Wight?

[Cieyrin]

This is something that rather annoys me to no end, which I was thinking got fixed between 3.0 and 3.5 like Shadowdancer's Shadow Companion got neutered but it's not apparently the case. Why the hell should negative energy that kills a victim bring back a creature if it wasn't killed by a creature with create spawn? What's the reasoning behind this? Is this some feature of the Negative Energy Plane that requires it to feed back into a recently deceased critter?

Not to mention that it's cheaper to do so than Animate Dead or either Create Dead, since Enervation or a Fell Drain Magic Missile barrage have no associated material cost with them. So, any ideas, Playground?

[Marnath]

Says right in the negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) definition that any creature killed by negative levels rises as a wight if no specific kind of creature that creates spawn killed them.

[TheCountAlucard]

Says right in the negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) definition that any creature killed by negative levels rises as a wight if no specific kind of creature that creates spawn killed them.Yeah, but the question is, "Why should it?" And really, I've yet to see a satisfactory answer.

Worse yet, it causes weird, arbitrary stuff, like the idea that for 166 gold, 2 copper, and some brains, anybody can bring about the end of all existence.

[Cieyrin]

Says right in the negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) definition that any creature killed by negative levels rises as a wight if no specific kind of creature that creates spawn killed them.

I know the rules says so but WHY should they? The wight's fluff doesn't really explain itself as being antilife defined, so I'm not seeing why any given negative energy should animate corpses killed in that matter.

[Boci]

I'd say its because Wights are the lowest CR creature in core that deal energy drain, and WotC figured that death from energy drain, no matter the source, would turn you into a creature that could inflict it on others without thinking of the consequences.

[herrhauptmann]

Maybe it's a relic from 40 years ago, before D&D was invented.

Like how in the old warbands game (or whatever it was called), high value elf units would decimated by low cost ghouls and Sleep spells. So as a result, elves became immune to both of those effect.

[Cieyrin]

Maybe it's a relic from 40 years ago, before D&D was invented.

Like how in the old warbands game (or whatever it was called), high value elf units would decimated by low cost ghouls and Sleep spells. So as a result, elves became immune to both of those effect.

Y'mean Chainmail? I don't think so, I don't recall negative energy killing and raising critters in 2E or earlier.

[herrhauptmann]

Y'mean Chainmail? I don't think so, I don't recall negative energy killing and raising critters in 2E or earlier.

Yeah, Chainmail. Never played it, but I know that a number of our seemingly nonsense rules derived from older editions.

[NikitaDarkstar]

I'd say its because Wights are the lowest CR creature in core that deal energy drain, and WotC figured that death from energy drain, no matter the source, would turn you into a creature that could inflict it on others without thinking of the consequences.
This is pretty much my reasoning also. Negative energy suck the life force out of someone rather abruptly and is bound to be painful, side effects happen. Even if in my opinion it should be a % chance of it happening not a fixed "it WILL happen." thing.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Because its awesome.

[Kyouhen]

Here's how I look at it.

Negative energy is what is used for creating undead in general, right? Undead feed on negative energy, getting stronger when exposed to various forms of it. (Healed by Inflict spells, Desecrate lets you raise more, etc) So negative energy = undead.

Negative energy drain is the highest level of negative energy attack, pumping the target full of the stuff. When the target dies the energy still coursing through their body is enough to reanimate them as a nice weak undead. It ends up working exactly like Animate Dead, except you haven't put the effort into controlling the result.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, that's how I view it to work.

Living things require positive energy to live, and it's the actual essence of their life force.

Undead things require negative energy to live, and again it's the actual essence of their life force.

A body no longer holds life when their energy leaves. But if their positive energy leaves and there is negative energy remaining, it actually becomes undead. This wouldn't result from death by an instantaneous negative energy attack, but from "negative life" imposed on them internally that actually inhabits their body (AKA negative levels).

As an extension of such a system, it might imply that hit points themselves are the measurement of a creature's positive energy (or negative for undead). I think I like that better than wounds or stamina, TBH.

[mootoall]

Yeah, but the question is, "Why should it?" And really, I've yet to see a satisfactory answer.

Worse yet, it causes weird, arbitrary stuff, like the idea that for 166 gold, 2 copper, and some brains, anybody can bring about the end of all existence.

Now now, I'm sure you can buy a partially charged wand of Arcane Thesis: Fell Drained Sonic Snap that's been created by an Artificer and Wizard working together for much cheaper than 166 gold and 2 copper. You only need one charge!

[Cornelius Grim]

Here's how I look at it.

Negative energy is what is used for creating undead in general, right? Undead feed on negative energy, getting stronger when exposed to various forms of it. (Healed by Inflict spells, Desecrate lets you raise more, etc) So negative energy = undead.

Negative energy drain is the highest level of negative energy attack, pumping the target full of the stuff. When the target dies the energy still coursing through their body is enough to reanimate them as a nice weak undead. It ends up working exactly like Animate Dead, except you haven't put the effort into controlling the result.

This is essentially what I would imagine what happens as well. The negative charge left in the body is enough to animate it but without a person to control the outcome of the effect, a wight is created.

[HunterOfJello]

I'm definitely going to be buying a Shirt of the Wraith to avoid problems when using my new Fell Drain wand combos on my Artificer now. Thanks for pointing the Wight problem out.

[Sception]

Why? That's just what happens when when a sentient, sapient, living creature is infused with that much negative energy. Its metaphysical essence goes into system shock, its soul inverts, and it becomes a wight.

My Dread Necromancer loves it, because it's guaranteed access to wights as soon as his rebuke undead score is high enough to control them (same reason he loves Summon Undead V for access to shadows). Not that any DM in their right mind would ever allow chain-controlled spawning undead in a normal game, and not that I would every try something like that in any game that wasn't already focused on the PCs leading armies in large scale combats, at least not as anything other then a background element

My last dread necromancer, for instance, had a spy network of chain controlled shadows and haunt-shifted wights spread throughout the kingdom, and a few shadows and wights serving as lieutenants in a small force of lesser undead guarding his base of operations while he went adventuring with the party, with my clerical cohort keeping them in line, but all of that was background details that mostly didn't come up in actual play. I certainly didn't try to bring many undead, let alone legions of shadows, with me on dungeon delves - just maybe a zombie dragon airbus for party transportation, maybe a single awakened skeletal troll bodyguard or awakened skeletal nightmare steed for any party member who wanted one, maybe a sack of holding full of undead cats, rats, and bats to check for traps, and of course a portable hole to carry our airbus with us when we weren't flying in it.

[Keld Denar]

I've always seen the fluff for wights being that they are consumed by the negative energy in their bodies and have an insatiable craving to snuff out the positive energy in others. They are jealous of the living and maddeningly believe that if they drain the life force from enough living creatures, they will be returned to life. Thus, the negative energy that destroys life force is the drive behind coming back to unlife to try to regain what was taken from you. It doesn't matter HOW that life force was drained, just that it was.

Just like murders come back as morghs and dead sailors come back as drowned, a person slain by negative energy is warped in a such a way that returns them to unlife with an insatiable hunger for the life force that was robbed from them by the negative energy attack.

[Cieyrin]

I've always seen the fluff for wights being that they are consumed by the negative energy in their bodies and have an insatiable craving to snuff out the positive energy in others. They are jealous of the living and maddeningly believe that if they drain the life force from enough living creatures, they will be returned to life. Thus, the negative energy that destroys life force is the drive behind coming back to unlife to try to regain what was taken from you. It doesn't matter HOW that life force was drained, just that it was.

Just like murders come back as morghs and dead sailors come back as drowned, a person slain by negative energy is warped in a such a way that returns them to unlife with an insatiable hunger for the life force that was robbed from them by the negative energy attack.

This is what I was looking for. The way the rules explain it is so arbitrary and it's so easily missed, considering Energy Drained (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#energyDrained) doesn't make any mention of coming back. It's like some designer decided to sneak it into the DMG or something...

I was kinda hoping Frank & K's Tome of Necromancy would cover it but they make no mention as far as I could find, so yeah...

[Keld Denar]

Its basically what happens when you put karma into Google Translate, filter it a few times across a couple of different continents, and the result you get is so far removed from the origional intent that it ceased to be relevant about twelve iterations ago.

THAT is how a wight percieves the world. In their twisted, warped minds, an injustice was done to them (application of negative energy to the living), and by spreading that injustice to others, they'll somehow remedy themselves.

It doesn't make any sense, but the mind of a person warped by negative energy doesn't make sense. Their jealousy and hatred of other living things because they contain life, life similar to what was stolen from them, is their sole driving motivation.

[TheCountAlucard]

Now now, I'm sure you can buy a partially charged wand of Arcane Thesis: Fell Drained Sonic Snap that's been created by an Artificer and Wizard working together for much cheaper than 166 gold and 2 copper. You only need one charge!True, but for 166 gold and 2 copper, your Wightocalypse is infinitely-reusable! You know, just in case you mess up the first time, or high-level PCs nuke the first Wightocalypse from orbit. :smalltongue:

[Cieyrin]

Now now, I'm sure you can buy a partially charged wand of Arcane Thesis: Fell Drained Sonic Snap that's been created by an Artificer and Wizard working together for much cheaper than 166 gold and 2 copper. You only need one charge!

That seems like such a waste of Arcane Thesis...

[Ditto]

Its basically what happens when you put karma into Google Translate, filter it a few times across a couple of different continents, and the result you get is so far removed from the origional intent that it ceased to be relevant about twelve iterations ago.


Since you asked.
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z54/DittoTOL/karma.jpg

[Undercroft]

I'm not too familiar with all the assorted splatbooks, but hwat exactly is an arcane thesis and what;s the source?

[Cieyrin]

I'm not too familiar with all the assorted splatbooks, but hwat exactly is an arcane thesis and what;s the source?

Arcane Thesis is from Player's Handbook 2. It lets you specialize in one spell, giving you +2 CL and reduces metamagic costs by 1 when casting it. You can't reduce it below its original level (no savings on +0 metas), but it's pretty awesome if you pick the right spell.

[Thiyr]

Here's the biggest problem for me.

Why is it that if I kill a centaur or pixie or storm giant with negative levels, they'll rise as a medium sized, bipedal humanoid undead. Or, depending on how you interpret the wording of it, if you kill, say, a dire shark with negative levels (I kinda forced that question on my DM during session for a game I just had to quit. I ended up not wighting it for the sake of not wanting to cause the breakdown of whatever ecosystem I decided to throw it back into, saying it would just be a shark with energy drain and create spawn).

Or a bacterium. Ah, the wightocaplyse: so very improved by microbiology.

As for the why, I'd venture to guess because undead are animated by negative energy, and negative levels aren't so much the removal of energy so much as the replacement of the "energy" of a living thing with negative energy (compared to neg energy damage just using that to injure). Once it's fully replaced, it's got negative energy running it. The wight is the chosen default "generic" negative-energy-based potentially sentient undead, and they probably figured the sentience would be a likely thing to assume (hence why they said characters that die from negative levels equal to hit dice, not creatures. Hence why i bring up interpreting wording)

[Cornelius Grim]

Here's the biggest problem for me.

Why is it that if I kill a centaur or pixie or storm giant with negative levels, they'll rise as a medium sized, bipedal humanoid undead. Or, depending on how you interpret the wording of it, if you kill, say, a dire shark with negative levels (I kinda forced that question on my DM during session for a game I just had to quit. I ended up not wighting it for the sake of not wanting to cause the breakdown of whatever ecosystem I decided to throw it back into, saying it would just be a shark with energy drain and create spawn).

Or a bacterium. Ah, the wightocaplyse: so very improved by microbiology.

As for the why, I'd venture to guess because undead are animated by negative energy, and negative levels aren't so much the removal of energy so much as the replacement of the "energy" of a living thing with negative energy (compared to neg energy damage just using that to injure). Once it's fully replaced, it's got negative energy running it. The wight is the chosen default "generic" negative-energy-based potentially sentient undead, and they probably figured the sentience would be a likely thing to assume (hence why they said characters that die from negative levels equal to hit dice, not creatures. Hence why i bring up interpreting wording)

Only Humanoids killed by wights become wights. And in the negative level description on the SRD it says "characters" which is generally associated with humanoids too. So a centaur or pixie would not become a wight. Oddly enough, a kobold would. :smalltongue:

[SgtCarnage92]

I remember seeing a "wight" template floating around somewhere that would allow for other creatures to become wights off of an energy drain. So the kobold becoming a medium creature wouldn't happen. It becomes a kobold with a template that makes it an energy draining undead. Not core, but available. (if anyone has any idea where this template is, it would be appreciated)

[Eldan]

Suggestion: let's homebrew some alternate weak undead creature that is the result of being drained to dead (call it a "shade" or something), that can't spawn on it's own. Make the Wight a stronger version of that.

Avoids the silly infinite wight problem.

[Shadowknight12]

Suggestion: let's homebrew some alternate weak undead creature that is the result of being drained to dead (call it a "shade" or something), that can't spawn on it's own. Make the Wight a stronger version of that.

Avoids the silly infinite wight problem.

Or just say that they become "restless souls" outside the PC's control. No need to actually stat them (just like there are no stats for the "elemental spirits" animating a golem).

[hamishspence]

I remember seeing a "wight" template floating around somewhere that would allow for other creatures to become wights off of an energy drain. So the kobold becoming a medium creature wouldn't happen. It becomes a kobold with a template that makes it an energy draining undead. Not core, but available. (if anyone has any idea where this template is, it would be appreciated)

it's in Savage Species.

Quite a few undead creatures get template versions in Dragon Magazine as well- some of which were in Dragon Compendium- Bodak Creature, Ghoulish creature, Ghastly Creature.

It's a pity only humanoids can become wights and not animals- a Wight Whale might be an interesting aquatic adversary.

[Cieyrin]

It's a pity only humanoids can become wights and not animals- a Wight Whale might be an interesting aquatic adversary.

There she blows!--there she blows! A hump like a snow-hill! It is Moby ****! The Wight Whale will be mine this day! Ready my harpoon!

[hamishspence]

That was the idea, yes. Admittedly the players might groan a bit at the pun.

Fun though :smallamused:

[erikun]

Y'mean Chainmail? I don't think so, I don't recall negative energy killing and raising critters in 2E or earlier.
They did in previous editions as well.

If the character is drained to less than 0 levels (therby slain by the undead), he returns as undead of the same type as his slayer in 2d4 days.

[Cieyrin]

They did in previous editions as well.

Not quite the same rule, actually, as we're talking about if you get energy drained to death by a non-undead. I don't recall if Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) or similar existed in 2E, so it may never have come up.

[erikun]

Not quite the same rule, actually, as we're talking about if you get energy drained to death by a non-undead. I don't recall if Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) or similar existed in 2E, so it may never have come up.
Energy Drain did in fact exist, and it turned targets into juju zombies if they died through level drain. Finger of Death also produces juju zombies in the same way. I'm not seeing any other level-drain spells that are capable of killing a target in the same way, at least not from the PHB. (Enervation could drop to 0th level, but didn't kill outside a system shock check.)

[Cornelius Grim]

I approve of the "Wight Whale" idea. I love semantics. Word play. Puns. :smallbiggrin:

I also thank you all for the Wight template. This shall make my life much more entertaining. :smallamused:

[erikun]

You should make a good-aligned wight. Make it lighter colored, so that it is distinctive. And make it glow. That way, you can put your party up against a Right White Light Wight.

[Tvtyrant]

You should make a good-aligned wight. Make it lighter colored, so that it is distinctive. And make it glow. That way, you can put your party up against a Right White Light Wight.

My poor brain hurts.... Why???!

[Flickerdart]

I approve of the "Wight Whale" idea. I love semantics. Word play. Puns. :smallbiggrin:

I also thank you all for the Wight template. This shall make my life much more entertaining. :smallamused:
You would always give Wail of the Banshee to your Wights, and send them out to use their terrible Wight Wail on people.

[herrhauptmann]

You would always give Wail of the Banshee to your Wights, and send them out to use their terrible Wight Wail on people.

*Cries*
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