Worst DM detail mistakes

[ClothedInVelvet]

So I'm DMing a game, and my players are sailing into a kingdom when their ship gets boarded by customs. I had some of the nation's soldiers board, with detail and flair, describing their armor and behavior when one of my players goes, "Full plate armor on the high seas? That seems like a bad combination."

Leaving me to respond with, "Uh.... Yes it does. Probably pretty bad actually."

Please share mistakes so I don't feel so stupid.

[TroubleBrewing]

I had an elaborate chase scene planned out for the party once.

I based it heavily on parkour, and had a number of skill challenges that needed to be completed in order to gain on their target. The only player to succeed at all of the challenges was the party Barbarian, due to his high Strength score and faster movement speed.

The chase ended when the target disappears into the crowd in a marketplace, and the party was meant to discover where he went by inferences brought on by hints I'd dropped earlier about his profession. There were signs everywhere indicating the various shops, stalls, etc. It should have been easy.

The party Barbarian goes, "Well, damn. Wish I could read."

/DM fail.

[Drelua]

I haven't been DM in a long time, but just last week, I was arguing with my DM about combat expertise. He didn't think you had to make an attack to use it, and thought it was perfectly reasonable that you would get a +5 to AC with no penalty, so long as you don't attack. That make you feel better?

Oh, and you should have led the description in the direction of mithral and buoyancy enchantments. These are elite soldiers, of course, so they need to be both well protected able to float.

[Ursus the Grim]

I had planned a purple worm attack on the party during the sandstorm, the low visibility was supposed to mitigate the advantage they had in numbers, the Worm would eat someone and hide in the sand.

I had just homebrewed an Erinyes class for a player.

"The worm disappears into the sandstorm, Thunderfang in its gullet."
"Well, its a good thing I have true seeing."
"Oops."


Oh, and you should have led the description in the direction of mithral and buoyancy enchantments. These are elite soldiers, of course, so they need to be both well protected able to float.

+4 Swimmies of Heavy Fortification?

[ClothedInVelvet]

I had an elaborate chase scene planned out for the party once.

I based it heavily on parkour, and had a number of skill challenges that needed to be completed in order to gain on their target. The only player to succeed at all of the challenges was the party Barbarian, due to his high Strength score and faster movement speed.

The chase ended when the target disappears into the crowd in a marketplace, and the party was meant to discover where he went by inferences brought on by hints I'd dropped earlier about his profession. There were signs everywhere indicating the various shops, stalls, etc. It should have been easy.

The party Barbarian goes, "Well, damn. Wish I could read."

/DM fail.

Laughing at that definitely made me feel better.

I did manage to cover my error, but I also just acknowledged that they caught me with my pants around my ankles.

[TroubleBrewing]

+4 Swimmies of Heavy Fortification?

Sure, why not? :smalltongue:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cwveYWgtM2c/TbIQsDGLFCI/AAAAAAAAAEA/O5J0oT6ekf4/s1600/dawn%2Bof%2Bwar%2B2%2Bspace%2Bmarine%2Bfigure.jpg

[ExtravagantEvil]

Okay, this one is quite recent really. Last week I ran a 2nd Edition AD&D Game and came up with this fun little Dungeon Encounter. The PC's would end up being trapped in a room with Worgs in it by a Goblin pulling a lever behind him, lowering some gates trapping the PC's.
Well, through a slip of the tongue, and their killing of the goblin, I somehow worded it so the gates were down already, and the PC's just threw daggers at the worgs through the holes in the wooden bars. :smallannoyed:. Days like this are why I need to prep a teeny bit more so I don't make these constant slip ups.

[Yahzi]

Please share mistakes so I don't feel so stupid.
Your only mistake was in admitting a mistake.

Many sailors throughout history couldn't swim. To a man who can't swim in the first place, armor is no penalty. The Spanish conquistadors wore breastplates while fighting at sea.

When all else fails, it's:

a) Local law - the King is mad.
b) Religious custom - to forestall an ancient prophecy
c) A wizard did it - magic armor that floats.

[Knaight]

So I'm DMing a game, and my players are sailing into a kingdom when their ship gets boarded by customs. I had some of the nation's soldiers board, with detail and flair, describing their armor and behavior when one of my players goes, "Full plate armor on the high seas? That seems like a bad combination."

Eh, you can get away with this. If the ship is destroyed, everyone on probably dies anyways, and as long as one doesn't fall off plate is fine. For boarding action, getting shanked is probably a bigger risk than falling off.

[Fiery Diamond]

I haven't been DM in a long time, but just last week, I was arguing with my DM about combat expertise. He didn't think you had to make an attack to use it, and thought it was perfectly reasonable that you would get a +5 to AC with no penalty, so long as you don't attack. That make you feel better?

Oh, and you should have led the description in the direction of mithral and buoyancy enchantments. These are elite soldiers, of course, so they need to be both well protected able to float.

To be honest, I think that's perfectly reasonable too. If you are using only core and have no Optimization-fu skills, it's darn hard to boost AC without using spells. TBH, I'd have no problem with allowing that ruling AND allowing that to stack with the full defense action. It's certainly not within the current rules, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable houserule, especially for inexperienced players.


As to the topic: Oh, I do this all the time. The most recent one is where the characters became members of an Adventurers' Guild in order to get some information. They were given papers that they signed as their proof of membership. Mundane papers. One of the players pointed out, in character, how utterly stupid this was, since adventurers and fire tend to go together a lot. Medals or something would make more sense. Rather than go "oops, heh heh," I just worked it in as evidence of how the Guild was mostly a bunch of posers and wannabes, along with nobility playing at adventuring and a bunch of actually competent people lining the top as arrogant jerks running the thing. Then they gave out medals whenever you accepted a mission or went into the nearby caverns, in case something happened to your papers. Worked in nicely.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I haven't been DM in a long time, but just last week, I was arguing with my DM about combat expertise. He didn't think you had to make an attack to use it, and thought it was perfectly reasonable that you would get a +5 to AC with no penalty, so long as you don't attack. That make you feel better?

That is perfectly reasonable. Why wouldn't it be?

[Rei_Jin]

I remember once I was working from a pre-written adventure, and you probably all know how wordy their descriptions of rooms tend to be. Well, the PCs had fought their way through X and Y, and they were up to the semi-final boss room, not that they knew it. So I start reading out the description, which for some reason is massively detailed and has as its final line "In the middle of the room is a very angry looking Red Dragon."

The players were bored, I was bored, and I forgot to read that line out. Plum forgot to even read it to myself, I ended up going "Blah blah blah, shiny things are shiny" and so they wandered in and started investigating. As they did, I realised my mistake...

Yeah, that was an interesting encounter.




You'd think that something like that would be right up the top of a text block, not at the end of it after they've smelt the dry, crisp air and felt the warmth that seemed to emanate from the room, seen the broken pillars and piles of silver and gold... a giant freaking Red Dragon is a little more important to notice than the stuff around the edges.

[Drelua]

That is perfectly reasonable. Why wouldn't it be?

That is not reasonable because that would make it one of the most powerful feats in the game for casters, and make it hardly any better for combat classes. We're playing Pathfinder, where dodge gives a flat +1 dodge to AC, and this is an extremely low optimization group. We all know full casters are powerful enough, and this would just make them way to hard to hit. One feat giving a bonus to AC like that with basically no penalty to a full caster would be ridiculous. There's a reason both the PHB and Pathfinder Core Rulebook clearly say that you must attack to use the feat.

[John Campbell]

I had planned a purple worm attack on the party during the sandstorm, the low visibility was supposed to mitigate the advantage they had in numbers, the Worm would eat someone and hide in the sand.

I had just homebrewed an Erinyes class for a player.

"The worm disappears into the sandstorm, Thunderfang in its gullet."
"Well, its a good thing I have true seeing."
"Oops."
?


True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.



Eh, you can get away with this. If the ship is destroyed, everyone on probably dies anyways, and as long as one doesn't fall off plate is fine. For boarding action, getting shanked is probably a bigger risk than falling off.

And there are accounts in the sagas of people swimming in mail hauberks. I can't testify as to how practical this is in real life - I keep meaning to do some experimentation, but somehow the circumstances have never been right - but I'd posit that the things that characters in the sagas get up to should be at least a minimum bar for what a D&D character should be able to accomplish.



I remember once I was working from a pre-written adventure, and you probably all know how wordy their descriptions of rooms tend to be. Well, the PCs had fought their way through X and Y, and they were up to the semi-final boss room, not that they knew it. So I start reading out the description, which for some reason is massively detailed and has as its final line "In the middle of the room is a very angry looking Red Dragon."

The players were bored, I was bored, and I forgot to read that line out. Plum forgot to even read it to myself, I ended up going "Blah blah blah, shiny things are shiny" and so they wandered in and started investigating. As they did, I realised my mistake...
We had something like that happen once. DM started reading out the lengthy and badly-written text box, and we got caught up in trying to get clarifications as to whether any of the "portal", the "archway", and the "door" were the same exit, and whether any of them were the way we'd come in, whether "on the wall to the right of the fireplace" meant on the same wall as the fireplace, but to its right, or on the wall that was to your right when you were facing the wall with the fireplace, and so on, that the DM forgot to even read some vital bits of the description. When we finally got sorted out what the basic map of the room looked like and went to investigate the fireplace, the door, he portal (which was, it turned out, the same as the archway, but not the same as the door, which was on the same wall as the fireplace, and none of them were the door we'd come in), and so on, the DM gave us a funny look and asked, "Uh, are you going to do anything about the demon head?"

Since then, my group's been responding to any vital bit of information being left out of descriptions with, "What demon head?"

[Ksheep]

I remember once I was working from a pre-written adventure, and you probably all know how wordy their descriptions of rooms tend to be. Well, the PCs had fought their way through X and Y, and they were up to the semi-final boss room, not that they knew it. So I start reading out the description, which for some reason is massively detailed and has as its final line "In the middle of the room is a very angry looking Red Dragon."

The players were bored, I was bored, and I forgot to read that line out. Plum forgot to even read it to myself, I ended up going "Blah blah blah, shiny things are shiny" and so they wandered in and started investigating. As they did, I realised my mistake...

Yeah, that was an interesting encounter.

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1213

[Flame of Anor]

"The worm disappears into the sandstorm, Thunderfang in its gullet."
"Well, its a good thing I have true seeing."
"Oops."

As John Campbell said, True Seeing "does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like."


And there are accounts in the sagas of people swimming in mail hauberks. I can't testify as to how practical this is in real life - I keep meaning to do some experimentation, but somehow the circumstances have never been right - but I'd posit that the things that characters in the sagas get up to should be at least a minimum bar for what a D&D character should be able to accomplish.

Well, think of it this way. How much does a mail hauberk weigh? Maybe 60 pounds? People can swim while carrying other people who weigh much more than that. Of course, people are more buoyant than mail, but they're also more likely to flop around and impede you. I would say that a guy in really good shape could swim in armor for a few minutes. Enough for his mates on board to throw him a line, at least.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That is not reasonable because that would make it one of the most powerful feats in the game for casters, and make it hardly any better for combat classes. We're playing Pathfinder, where dodge gives a flat +1 dodge to AC, and this is an extremely low optimization group. We all know full casters are powerful enough, and this would just make them way to hard to hit. One feat giving a bonus to AC like that with basically no penalty to a full caster would be ridiculous. There's a reason both the PHB and Pathfinder Core Rulebook clearly say that you must attack to use the feat.

You know the penalty applies to the touch attacks casters make, right? And really, a persisted mage armor would do almost the same thing, and a caster can afford to lose a spell slot.

Also, you only get 9 feats over the course of your career, excluding bonus feats. They should five you huge benefits. And did you forget that a wizard can't make full use of that feat until 10th level?

[ClothedInVelvet]

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1213

These comics are fantastic. Great for commiserating and complaining about players.

[Drelua]

You know the penalty applies to the touch attacks casters make, right? And really, a persisted mage armor would do almost the same thing, and a caster can afford to lose a spell slot.

Also, you only get 9 feats over the course of your career, excluding bonus feats. They should five you huge benefits. And did you forget that a wizard can't make full use of that feat until 10th level?

No, I did not forget about the limitations. Did you forget that I was playing Pathfinder? I suppose one thing I did forget to mention was that the character in question was a human gestalt fighter/sorcerer at level 13, so the bonus and penalty were both 4. I did, however, mention that we are an extremely low optimization group. This meant that most of his spells were fireballs and lightning bolts, with the occasional ranged touch spell, which is not going to miss with 20 DEX (35 point buy, max 20 AFTER racial mods points from leveling. My DMs an idiot) and a high BAB. Because of this combination, he had 17 feats at this level, with 9 more to go. I don't think 26 (15 without the fighter) feats should each give a bonus equivalent +4 AC (+6 at level 20) with next to no penalty.
Do you?

[Feriority]

Is your complaint that the feat is overpowered for Gestalt characters? Because if so... uh, isn't just about everything?

[Drelua]

Is your complaint that the feat is overpowered for Gestalt characters? Because if so... uh, isn't just about everything?

I'm not complaining that combat expertise is overpowered for gestalt characters, or that its overpowered at all. I'm saying it would be overpowered if you could get the AC bonus without making any attacks to take a penalty on.

[opticalshadow]

we were in a old archives once, in a room and the dm was describbing everything, including us seeing the unseen servent cleaning.

"so wait...we can actually see the unseen servent? can you provide a description"

"yeah...um...right..."

[Ksheep]

we were in a old archives once, in a room and the dm was describbing everything, including us seeing the unseen servent cleaning.

"so wait...we can actually see the unseen servent? can you provide a description"

"yeah...um...right..."

Had something like this a while back. Had to rescue a kidnapped princess, so we went to watch a meeting between the kidnappers. While we were hiding, they arrived and the DM said "You see the princess rise out of the stump in the clearing. She is in a forcecage."

"Wait, we can see the invisible force that makes the forcecage?"

"…It's a special force cage."

Which would also explain how it was able to be moved.

[Knaight]

Well, think of it this way. How much does a mail hauberk weigh? Maybe 60 pounds? People can swim while carrying other people who weigh much more than that. Of course, people are more buoyant than mail, but they're also more likely to flop around and impede you. I would say that a guy in really good shape could swim in armor for a few minutes. Enough for his mates on board to throw him a line, at least.

Two points.
1) People are way, way more buoyant than mail, to the point where weight comparisons are pretty much useless.
2) 60 pounds would be an incredibly heavy mail hauberk. 20-30 pounds (9-14 kg) is more reasonable.

[Drelua]

Two points.
1) People are way, way more buoyant than mail, to the point where weight comparisons are pretty much useless.
2) 60 pounds would be an incredibly heavy mail hauberk. 20-30 pounds (9-14 kg) is more reasonable.

Some googling has told me that the average man is within a few pounds of being neutrally buoyant, with air in his lungs, weighing anout 5 pounds less in salt water than fresh water. Obviously they won't be fully submerged, but at 30 pounds, the armor would probably weigh you down more than an average man, though the man would be a less convenient shape. Still probably easier to carry, though.

[Knaight]

Some googling has told me that the average man is within a few pounds of being neutrally buoyant, with air in his lungs, weighing anout 5 pounds less in salt water than fresh water. Obviously they won't be fully submerged, but at 30 pounds, the armor would probably weigh you down more than an average man, though the man would be a less convenient shape. Still probably easier to carry, though.

At 20 pounds, it will still weigh you down more than an average man. Moreover, mail is fairly heavily padded as a rule, and said padding will probably absorb water.

[Drelua]

At 20 pounds, it will still weigh you down more than an average man. Moreover, mail is fairly heavily padded as a rule, and said padding will probably absorb water.

To sum it up, don't fall into the ocean covered in metal. Not only is it more difficult than carrying a man, but to make it even worse, you won't just drown, you'll drown and then get rusty armour.

[Slipperychicken]

First session of a campaign. BBEG appeared at the front of a parade and made a speech like Lelouche from Code Geass, while kidnapping the prince or whatever.

DM: (places miniatures on board) "So like, these motherf***ers with s*** strapped to their chests run in from the alley all like..."

Me: :smallannoyed:

(later that battle, things are looking pretty hopeless)

DM: So.. it looks like all you need to do is deal 20 cold damage to the Wall of Fire to knock it out to let several thousand reinforcements in.

Me: 20 cold damage knocks out the whole thirty-foot-wide wall?

DM: Yep

(2 rounds, a dead PC, and exactly 20 cold damage later...)

Me: It's down, do I see the reinforcements coming in? :smallbiggrin:

DM: Oh wait... (glances at computer)... I messed up before, that only knocked out one square of the wall.. the army isn't marching through a single 5ft square. Also, that chick with the scroll crits you for 40 damage.

Whole Party: :smalleek:

[wuwuwu]

First session of a campaign. BBEG appeared at the front of a parade and made a speech like Lelouche from Code Geass, while kidnapping the prince or whatever.

DM: (places miniatures on board) "So like, these motherf***ers with s*** strapped to their chests run in from the alley all like..."

Oh goodness, yes. Can I... can I join your group?

[Knaight]

To sum it up, don't fall into the ocean covered in metal. Not only is it more difficult than carrying a man, but to make it even worse, you won't just drown, you'll drown and then get rusty armour.

Pretty much. The trick is a thin coating of aluminum.

[Herabec]

Start of the session: Cleric casts Death Ward on the Fighter, the only character I've been unable to kill since the start of the campaign. The character I've made my personal mission to kill. (Fairly, of course. >_>)

Three hours, three cockatrices, two Huge Fire Elementals and a Vampire later.

"The skeletal sorcerer casts Phantasmal Killer at you, roll a Willpower save."

"Nat 1."

"Okay, roll a Fortitude save."

"...17?"

"..... Well, a creature from your greatest nightmares materializes before you and devours you. You die."

"Wait. Didn't the cleric cast Death Ward on me earlier?"

"..."

"CLERIC!!!!!!!!!"

I was a sad DM.

She still has yet to die. The saga continues...

[SamBurke]

+1. Sounds l33t, man.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Had something like this a while back. Had to rescue a kidnapped princess, so we went to watch a meeting between the kidnappers. While we were hiding, they arrived and the DM said "You see the princess rise out of the stump in the clearing. She is in a forcecage."

"Wait, we can see the invisible force that makes the forcecage?"

"…It's a special force cage."

Which would also explain how it was able to be moved.

This has happened a few times with my DM too, so nowadays we just assume that yes force cage and wall of force are somewhat visible, translucent, but visible. Less headaches this way. (And we know that if a wizard is involved there will be a Disintegrate spell cast so fast it won't matter anyway. ^^; )

And I'm no DM but as a player I've done the wonderful mistake of going one vs one with a Duskblade who happened to be a half-fire elemental... my character is a pure wizard that specializes in all things fiery and/or necromantic, and of course some protection spells, but you know he's a squishy mage. He easily identifies the girl as using fire.. and a very, very big sword. Yet I manage to forget to cast fire resistance or immunity on myself.. I say I will, but I summon two zombie wyverns instead.... yes I got an orb of fire showed up my read end for that one. =.=

[IonDragon]

In a seafaring campaign, we were being ambushed by merfolk while we were sleeping. The DM said the Druid's shark didn't see them coming because it was asleep (sharks die if they stop moving) :x

In a winter game, the DM said we needed to find food for our horses, since because of the snow the grass was all dead. Grass stays green all year round if it has light (which can go through snow) and water. Normally, grass will remain green under snow.


I haven't been DM in a long time, but just last week, I was arguing with my DM about combat expertise. He didn't think you had to make an attack to use it, and thought it was perfectly reasonable that you would get a +5 to AC with no penalty, so long as you don't attack. That make you feel better?

Well, if he wants to spend his standard action making an "unarmed attack against the invisible opponent in the next square" he would be able to miss and gain the benefits. Even if there was no invisible opponent.


I suppose one thing I did forget to mention was that the character in question was ... level 13. So +4 AC should bring him all the way up to about 1/2 the AC of a sword and board fighter (+2 full plate, +2 Heavy shield, +1 Dodge, +1 Dex, +2 (or more) Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 (or more) Ring of Deflection gets you to 32, 37 if he's using Combat Expertise to trade in that 5 to hit for more AC)


I did, however, mention that we are an extremely low optimization group.

AC is low OP. 20% miss > +10 AC.


This meant that most of his spells were fireballs and lightning bolts, with the occasional ranged touch spell, which is not going to miss with 20 DEX 1. Touch spells almost never miss at that level regardless.
2. My group uses a rule that to hit a square you have to hit AC 5. This usually doesn't matter, but given that he's taking penalties to hit it could. If he misses shift it one square per 5 he missed by in a random direction determined by a d8. Then maybe his fireball lands on the tank.


I don't think 26 (15 without the fighter) feats should each give a bonus equivalent +4 AC (+6 at level 20) with next to no penalty.

Not all feats are created equal. For example: Skill Focus vs. Empower Spell. Or Dodge vs. Improved Initiative. If you're able to go first and CC them, it doesn't matter if you're slightly negligibly harder to hit.

[ffone]

I had an elaborate chase scene planned out for the party once.

I based it heavily on parkour, and had a number of skill challenges that needed to be completed in order to gain on their target. The only player to succeed at all of the challenges was the party Barbarian, due to his high Strength score and faster movement speed.

The chase ended when the target disappears into the crowd in a marketplace, and the party was meant to discover where he went by inferences brought on by hints I'd dropped earlier about his profession. There were signs everywhere indicating the various shops, stalls, etc. It should have been easy.

The party Barbarian goes, "Well, damn. Wish I could read."

/DM fail.

Nah, not really or at least no totally. The barbarian could've asked other members of the crowd if they could read signs for him (Diplomacy check maybe, or spend some coins).


I had planned a purple worm attack on the party during the sandstorm, the low visibility was supposed to mitigate the advantage they had in numbers, the Worm would eat someone and hide in the sand.

I had just homebrewed an Erinyes class for a player.

"The worm disappears into the sandstorm, Thunderfang in its gullet."
"Well, its a good thing I have true seeing."
"Oops."



+4 Swimmies of Heavy Fortification?

True Seeing doesn't help vs nonmagical concealment, so the sandstorm would still hide the worm. So I guess *that* is the DMing mistake. :)

Edit: I would say ninja'ed or swordsage'd, but I'm soooo darn sick of seeing that in threads. Oops, just did.

[NikitaDarkstar]

In a seafaring campaign, we were being ambushed by merfolk while we were sleeping. The DM said the Druid's shark didn't see them coming because it was asleep (sharks die if they stop moving) :x

In a winter game, the DM said we needed to find food for our horses, since because of the snow the grass was all dead. Grass stays green all year round if it has light (which can go through snow) and water. Normally, grass will remain green under snow.


Actually not all species of shark need to move to breathe, quite a few are capable of pumping water over their gills anyway, and some even lay on the bottom while resting, only a few need to move without rest to not suffocate. And there's at least one species that can swim and sleep at the same time. (But most rest while still being aware of their surroundings to a certain degree.)

And far from all grasses stay green during winter. It doesn't need just light to grow, it also needs heat and moisture, which during a proper winter (think arctic styled winter here...) won't happen... But yes, some species can grow, especially further south, but it's not completely wrong to say you need to figure out a way to feed your horses in a climate like that. (There's a reason they put out extra food even for rain-deers in winters after all... it's because food is pretty scarce. :p)

[BobVosh]

I'm running a pathfinder module and they always, always describe the room leaving out stuff like monsters. The creatures are buried in text so I miss it sometimes.

So typically it goes some thing like this: The room is a small office, 10x20, with the floor covered in bird droppings, there is a desk in the corner and 2 small hooks on the wall. They explore the room, find a trap door, and etc. Then I look down and see that the hooks had chain basilisks to them. >.<

Not the first time such has happened. This is why I usually make my own. I remember these things if I make em.

[Andrewmoreton]

A Long time ago I was describing an Alien race the players had encountered , I had not thoroughly thought about what they breathed and when one of the players asked I mentioned a Methane Chlorine atmosphere.
This was a problem as two of the players where doing degree's in chemistry and pointed out that Methane and Chlorine in the presence of light undergo a violently exothermic reaction. Even worse I knew that and just fotgot on the day

[NecroRick]

At 20 pounds, it will still weigh you down more than an average man. Moreover, mail is fairly heavily padded as a rule, and said padding will probably absorb water.

*twitch*

Surely... it doesn't matter how much water you add to something, you aren't going to make it heavier than water?

[Amphetryon]

*twitch*

Surely... it doesn't matter how much water you add to something, you aren't going to make it heavier than water?
Pretty sure that the weight of things when waterlogged increases the impediment to swimming. . . .

[Bhaakon]

*twitch*

Surely... it doesn't matter how much water you add to something, you aren't going to make it heavier than water?

Sure you are, if that water's displacing air (or some other lighter than water substance). If you filled a steal ship full of water, it would sink, no?

[Darcand]

So I'm DMing a game, and my players are sailing into a kingdom when their ship gets boarded by customs. I had some of the nation's soldiers board, with detail and flair, describing their armor and behavior when one of my players goes, "Full plate armor on the high seas? That seems like a bad combination."

Leaving me to respond with, "Uh.... Yes it does. Probably pretty bad actually."

Please share mistakes so I don't feel so stupid.

Just to point out the ACP for Mwk Full Plate is only a -5 (-10 for swimming)

Since you really only need to make a DC 6 swim check to tread calm water, (or an 11 in rough water) a first level fighter with 4 points in swim and a 16 strength could make it just by taking 10 every round until someone threw him a rope. As long as that happened before the possible 1d6 nonleathal damage/ hour did him in. Of course since that should take 2+ hours, a rope probably wasn't coming anyway.

[Salanmander]

Pretty sure that the weight of things when waterlogged increases the impediment to swimming. . . .

Generally it will...kinda. This is because the thing before it is waterlogged is /displacing/ water with that extra volume of air that water will seep into.
Also, even if it were just attaching water that wouldn't be displaced otherwise, it's still extra mass you would need to accelerate, but that wouldn't hurt too much.

[Ursus the Grim]

As John Campbell said, True Seeing "does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like."


Yeah. This was more subtle, and a two part.

Part one was forgetting that it didn't negate concealment.
Part two was not explaining to the new player that true seeing did not allow one to see everything,

My mistakes as a player have been more overt. Spoilered to avoid off-topic.

Low magic campaign. For a variety of reasons, my enchantress herbalist witch had retrained into spirit shaman in a magic-phobic world. After clearing a crypt, we return to town.
"Siandhra, thank you for all your help. Some people have accused you of being a mage, but you have my thanks and my trust. I know you cannot be one of those evil mages."
*BBEG appears, summons Gibbering Mouther.*
"I begin to cast summon nature's ally I"
*DM Facepalm*

[Graha013]

Oh goodness, yes. Can I... can I join your group?

My DM does a spot on Christopher Walkin impersonation. That is the 'narrator' voice he uses describing events in our current pirate campaign.


"Like...you're talking to my...goblin all wrong, man." Roll for initiative!

[MesiDoomstalker]

This isn't a DM mistake but its so much epic fail I have to share. On my very first session of DnD ever, the group was on a ship heading somewhere (I wasn't told nor was I told later, we never made it because we got distracted). So after a few hours, one of the NPC sailors noticed a pirate ship on the horizon and that the ship was lower in the water than it shoud be. Our half-beholder Bard (crazy I know) decided to you his Kazoo of Building (same as the Lyre, but in kazoo form) to make the ship invulnerable. Immiediatly after that, a butt load of shaughin hop on board and killed all the NPCs. The Shaughin had been slowly destroying the hull of the ship (which none of us noticed because I had the highest check modifier and didn't know I was supposed to roll something). So, because of the Kazoo, our ship was sinking and invulnerable so we couldn't patch the holes. The nails wouldn't be able to pierce the wood to make patches. Even I knew then that it was an epic fail.

[FMArthur]

I often forget about monsters or forget the order of monsters in a battle or which thing on the grid represents which monster...

What it occasionally boils down to is retroactive deaths that may reach up to 3 rounds into the past. Obviously I would never foist that on a PC, but even just for enemies it must make the world seem crazy and full of illusions.

[John Campbell]

Well, think of it this way. How much does a mail hauberk weigh? Maybe 60 pounds? People can swim while carrying other people who weigh much more than that. Of course, people are more buoyant than mail, but they're also more likely to flop around and impede you. I would say that a guy in really good shape could swim in armor for a few minutes. Enough for his mates on board to throw him a line, at least.
Mine weighs about 40 pounds, maybe 50 with the helm, greaves, vambraces, and so on thrown in. But it's not the raw weight that gets you; it's the density. A hundred thousand ton aircraft carrier floats just fine, because it's overall less dense than the water it displaces. But an eight ounce lead sinker will... well, they call them "sinkers" for a reason.

Steel is much denser than water, and, unlike an aircraft carrier, mail doesn't have watertight airspaces inside it, so that 40 pounds of mail translates to about 35 pounds of negative buoyancy dragging you down. People, on the other hand, are roughly as dense as water, so a 200 pound guy translates to roughly nothing as far as buoyancy is concerned... likely even a small positive buoyancy. So, yeah, armor is a significant downforce that you have to counteract to keep from sinking, whereas another person may actually be a flotation device.

I'm not convinced that it's impossible for a strong swimmer to swim in armor for a little while, but it's not going to be easy. I wasn't kidding about trying it, either... I just need sometime when I'm out at the lake, with my armor, and with someone around who can help me out if I get in trouble and isn't going to freak out about the idea of trying it in the first place. (i.e., Not my mom.)

(And my mail is rusty, anyway. It tends to be self-polishing when worn, but the weather's been stupid humid this year, and I've been doing way too much fighting in the rain.)

But that aside, what's possible, or practical, for a weekend viking in the real world shouldn't necessarily dictate what's plausible for a character in a heroic fantasy role-playing game. And, D&D-mechanics-wise, it's not all that difficult to build a character who can swim adequately even while eating the armor check penalty from full plate. Especially in Pathfinder, which appears to have dropped the ACP-doubling for Swim.

[FMArthur]

I can imagine you'd be able pull some things off if you didn't mind sinking for the 10-30 seconds it takes you to do so - and then rising to the surface to swim much better - but I really doubt that it would actually work out that way. I'd be most interested in what sort of armor would you be able remove in water, and whether or not you could make special armor with 'quick-release' tricks without sacrificing much protection.

[Flame of Anor]

I can imagine you'd be able pull some things off if you didn't mind sinking for the 10-30 seconds it takes you to do so - and then rising to the surface to swim much better - but I really doubt that it would actually work out that way. I'd be most interested in what sort of armor would you be able remove in water, and whether or not you could make special armor with 'quick-release' tricks without sacrificing much protection.

There actually is a "quick-release" armor special ability in one of the splatbooks.

[Ormur]

I was just reading a chapter in A Song of Ice and Fire where an experienced seaman remarks on the folly of all the proud knights wearing heavy plate while sailing to battle with his fleet.

It's just a story but it means that while it's a bad idea it's not such a bad idea warriors not used to sea voyages wouldn't actually do it.

[maradakia]

I was just playing in a twice weekly campaign group that I joined a few weeks ago. My character was a Paladin, with Glaive as his main melee weapon. I was standing next to a NPC I was trying to intimidate, and the DM said: If you're threatening to attack him, you should know that you are too close anyhow. The DM said that a Glaive has Disadvantage whenever attacking from 5 ft, and that I have to be at 10 ft. to not have Disadvantage.

As they carried on playing I quickly went to check the rule, because I was pretty sure he was mistaken, but I wanted to check. I found the rule, and from what I could tell it was a mistake. When I got the chance I quietly and nicely mentioned that I checked the rule, and I while a ranged weapon had Disadvantage up close, that melee weapon's with reach don't - at leats not in 5e, though maybe it differed in previous editions.

I got half way into the sentance, having spoken for maybe a couple of seconds, when the DM cut me off and sounding a bit aggitated said that he was not alright with me "rules lawyering" and that it was his game and his rules. Period.

*Question*
1. Was I right or wrong about the Glaive?
2. Much more importantly to me than the ruling itself is wondering about how it was handled: Am I right in considering that pretty bad behaviour from a DM - to strernly come down on someone who is generally quiet, for nicely, and briefly asking a quick question, once, about a rule?

Thanks.

[Honest Tiefling]

In a winter game, the DM said we needed to find food for our horses, since because of the snow the grass was all dead. Grass stays green all year round if it has light (which can go through snow) and water. Normally, grass will remain green under snow.

I did not know this, so I feel stupid. In my defense, I do live in California and haven't seen snow in over 10 years.

[DarkEternal]

One of my fond memories from a few years ago. We played a 3.5 game and were trying to find the elder of some village whose daughter commissioned us to find him. Apparently some mercs got him as a hostage in some house. We found this out and went to confront them. So, first it was the cronies in front of the house which was an encounter all by itself. I played a sorcerer specialising in summons, we had a barbarian, a spirit shaman and a rogue with us. So, the fight went okay. Summons mopped up, barbarian raged, spirit shaman cast his spells, among which he cast Spike growth to be annoying to the enemies in front of the house (it has a pretty big area that it covered).


Anyway, we mopped up and were discussing on a plan of actions of how to deal with the main bad guy and the hostage we were about to discover. Rogue spent a bit scouting around the house to see what's what. Apparently that was not necessary since the fight was long enough for us to eventually hear yells from the inside that he's going to kill the hostage if we come any closer. Of course, we didn't want to back down and started to roll diplomacy/bluff checks. Eventually, the main bad guy came outside of the house, holding the elder in a choke, his knife underneath the old man's throat, threatening he will kill the man if we don't give him safe passage.

Bad guy:"Get away from here or he dies!"
Party: "Okay, just take it easy. Nobody else needs to die today"
Spirit Shaman: "Ummm...can you place them on the map so I see where they stand?"
DM: "Sure." -places the miniatures-
Spirit Shaman: "Aaaaah, I see."
DM:?
Spirit Shaman: "Well...they're kind of standing in the middle of my spike growth spell. How much hp does the old man have?"
DM:...
Party:...
DM: "Okay, so the old guy is dead."
Party barbarian: "Half orc charge, half orc smash!"

[TheFamilarRaven]

*Question*


Answer: 1. Can't help you there, but there is a 5e sub-forum that'd be more than happy to clarify the rules for you.

2. Yes, it was poor form on the DM's part, at least as far as I can tell from your account of the events. As a DM it's important to not only respect the rules but also the players, flat out denying any objection to a ruling (especially one that is based on RAW) is not the mark of a spiffy DM. The DM can't remember every rule in the book (well I can't anyway), and they often create rules on the fly that are good enough to make the game run smoothly. But not letting players voice their opinions on said ruling is, as I said, not spiffy.

Anyway, my contribution.

We were on a ship in the middle of the desert, (yup) when all of a sudden these sand pirates decided our ship was an easy target that couldn't possibly have any PC's on board. So when their sand skiffs were closing into boarding range, my cavalier managed to spring out from the loading bay of the ship on my horse (it's been awhile I don't remember every detail). Now, these skiffs were low enough to the ground where a mounted combatant could attack the sailors, so of course I move in to lance one of the mooks.

Now, this DM was a real "theater of the mind" kind of DM, no grid map or anything. Well, it turns out that my cavalier managed to lance the mook, but I was on the OTHER side of the mast, which meant I had leave my lance behind otherwise the mast would have caught my arm and dismounted me? Why my cavalier wasn't smart enough to just attack from the correct side in the first place is beyond me, since it's not like I didn't have enough time.

Don't know if the above counts as a detail fail but it kinda irked me.

[Telok]

Boobs of Law...

Ok, so it was bad handwriting on the loot list and was supposed to read "Boots of Lev."

A decade later and we still bring it up sometimes.

[ekarney]

Last session I planned an encounter.

Except I forgot to plan out or even generate a reward.

My players are a little salty that all they got were 2 kobold slaves.

[Hurnn]

I think I have run Sinister secret of Saltmarsh 5 times at least for various groups in different editions including twice in the last 12 months for 3.5 groups and I always forget the spider in room 8.

8. WITHDRAWING ROOM
blah blah room description blah blah end of paragraph and page.

and why you might ask, do i always forget about it. well the answer is because tsr in their infinite wisdom lists it in the second paragraph of the room description which is on the back of the page..... which leads to the spider attacking as the leave the room almost every time.

[Albions_Angel]

Biggest DM fail comes from my favorite scenario, I just need to tweak it.

My party of 6 level 4 PCs (3 martial, one necro cleric, one beguiler and one druid) had to escort some refugees 4 days across freezing terrain. The refugees were escaping a war, mostly women, children, old men and cripples. None had cold weather clothing and I knew my party was wiped out on cash. And the town itself was strapped for supplies. The people were demorilized, frightened, and I threw some high level beguilers into the mix (just 2, for fun, never intended for them to fight directly, but illusions, confusion and a last ditch Friend to Foe for fun ;) ) Oh, and one of the refugees was a magical adept who knew some low level fire spells, enough to keep her warm, but also enough to bring suspicion on her and instigate a fight, leading the party and refugees to thinking she was behind the illusions and the refugees to try and kill her.

At the last moment, I thought "40 refugees is WAY too much to find food for for 4 days, and way to much collateral for when I drop Friend to Foe. I will cut it in half."

The cleric and druid managed to make their endure elements stretch to all the refugees and make enough food and water for all of them. I felt so stupid. What was a very tough, survival based challenge became treking through the snow for 4 days singing songs.

Granted, the beguilers still reeked havoc (a level 4 druid cant find a level 10 beguiler if she doesnt want to be found, and if the druid has to keep learning endure elements!) Got a good level of fear going with some dire wolf imitations after the first night had a REAL wolf attack. Confusion went off a couple of times. The adept girl tried to warm her hands and so got pinned down in a tent by 4 women and nearly executed, so she ended up having to be guarded by the party and died when the beguilers let off friend to foe on the main party. That all went to plan.

The beguilers almost escaped, which I was upset about (they were supposed to get off scott free, but turns out druids can cast a spell to turn into a bird for a stupid length of time, not wildshape, and gain a bunch of senses, and can also cast see invis, so that didnt work out). But they dealt with the dragon well, ignoring the strafing dragon and instead running the refugees from cover to cover until they got to the doors of the dwarven city.

But damn, reducing the challenge was a huge error. And I did similar things all the way through, going from lots of enemies to just a few because I doubted my players.

[Feint's End]

Your only mistake was in admitting a mistake.

Many sailors throughout history couldn't swim. To a man who can't swim in the first place, armor is no penalty. The Spanish conquistadors wore breastplates while fighting at sea.

When all else fails, it's:

a) Local law - the King is mad.
b) Religious custom - to forestall an ancient prophecy
c) A wizard did it - magic armor that floats.

I thought in a similar way however the full plates still limit the needed mobility on a ship meaning that yes ... there is little reason to wear full plates unless it is transport of troops only and they are not working on the ship.
If they were working wearing full plate is probably a bad idea for multiple reasons not related to swimming.


I had planned a purple worm attack on the party during the sandstorm, the low visibility was supposed to mitigate the advantage they had in numbers, the Worm would eat someone and hide in the sand.

I had just homebrewed an Erinyes class for a player.

"The worm disappears into the sandstorm, Thunderfang in its gullet."
"Well, its a good thing I have true seeing."
"Oops."

True seeing doesn't help in this situation. Concealment from sand and natural sources is not covered by the effect.

[Big Fau]

Sure you are, if that water's displacing air (or some other lighter than water substance). If you filled a steal ship full of water, it would sink, no?

Aren't steal ships called pirate ships? :P

[Elkad]

Well, think of it this way. How much does a mail hauberk weigh? Maybe 60 pounds? People can swim while carrying other people who weigh much more than that. Of course, people are more buoyant than mail, but they're also more likely to flop around and impede you. I would say that a guy in really good shape could swim in armor for a few minutes. Enough for his mates on board to throw him a line, at least.

This guy (https://vimeo.com/13634653)doesn't look like a professional swimmer, and while he isn't doing well, it looks in the realm of possibility. Put a world-champion swimmer in the armor, and I bet it's reasonable.

I've swum across a pond (maybe 60' of swimming, plus some wading/slogging through mud at either shore) with all my infantry gear. Most of it was probably close to neutral buoyancy, but it included a 23lb M-60. I made it, but I was completely wiped on the far side. In D&D terms, I was Disabled for a couple minutes (lying on the shore gasping for air), Exhausted for hours, and Fatigued for days.

Infantry-grade "friendly wager". I had all the gear tied together and a line and float on it, so theoretically I could have ditched it mid-swim. The risk of drowning was non-zero however, and I was too stubborn to give up. Even if I dumped the pack and M60, I would still have been trying to swim in uniform, web gear, boots and helmet.


I was just reading a chapter in A Song of Ice and Fire where an experienced seaman remarks on the folly of all the proud knights wearing heavy plate while sailing to battle with his fleet.

It's just a story but it means that while it's a bad idea it's not such a bad idea warriors not used to sea voyages wouldn't actually do it.

Somewhere else in those books, the Ironborn are going into battle and mocking the other marines afraid of wearing armor. Since drowning is a sacrament to them, they have no fear of wearing heavy mail on shipboard.

And of course if you can't swim anyway, it doesn't matter.
If you lose the battle, it may not matter either, as the winners may not rescue you.

I figure if I fall off the boat, I've got at least 15 seconds to ditch my armor before I'm too deep to get back to the surface. Dying to a weapon happens in an instant. Priorities.