One-Handed Weapons.

[ScrambledBrains]

Is it just me, or do one-handed weapons get the short end of the stick when it comes to combat? :smallsigh:

Two-Handed Fighting gets the damage bonus, Power Attack, and some of the more powerful and versitile weapons, plus other options I'm probably unaware of

Two Weapon Fighting gets extra attacks(granted, at penalty, but still.) and again, other options I'm probably unaware of.

Archery isn't perfect, but the ranges, coupled with certain feats, bows, and special arrows, makes it still viable for the most part.

Whereas One-Handed Weapons have no bonus damage, and to my knowledge, only one feat(Einhander).

I've always liked the image of a one-handed weapon user, but without the support, it's simply not a functional method of combat. :smallannoyed:

[DrMike105]

Bards get Snowflake Wardance. That's kinda handy. Single weapon fighting is clearly worst by the numbers, but you can do cool fluff. Kind of hard to be a dashing mustachioed swordsman with any two-hander (except possibly a Neanderthal swashbuckler with a greatclub, loincloth, and sweet mustache). Initiator classes and maneuvers can mitigate the einhander style setbacks.

[ScrambledBrains]

Bards get Snowflake Wardance. That's kinda handy. Single weapon fighting is clearly worst by the numbers, but you can do cool fluff. Kind of hard to be a dashing mustachioed swordsman with any two-hander (except possibly a Neanderthal swashbuckler with a greatclub, loincloth, and sweet mustache). Initiator classes and maneuvers can mitigate the einhander style setbacks.

Never looked at Snowflake Wardance, probably should. :smallbiggrin:

True, and that's part of my issue. I like the fluff of a one-handed weapon user, from the flourishing fencer to the wandering swordsman, but the numbers make it just not worth in from a crunch perspective.

This much I definetely know, being the lover of the swordsage class I am. :biggrin:

[Eldariel]

Is it just me, or do one-handed weapons get the short end of the stick when it comes to combat? :smallsigh:

Two-Handed Fighting gets the damage bonus, Power Attack, and some of the more powerful and versitile weapons, plus other options I'm probably unaware of

Two Weapon Fighting gets extra attacks(granted, at penalty, but still.) and again, other options I'm probably unaware of.

Archery isn't perfect, but the ranges, coupled with certain feats, bows, and special arrows, makes it still viable for the most part.

Whereas One-Handed Weapons have no bonus damage, and to my knowledge, only one feat(Einhander).

I've always liked the image of a one-handed weapon user, but without the support, it's simply not a functional method of combat. :smallannoyed:

Feh, get Tome of Battle -> Profit. You can play anything melee on a similar level of competency with ToB. But it's true that basically everything designed for one-handers is either worthless or better on a two-weapon fighter.

[ScrambledBrains]

Feh, get Tome of Battle -> Profit. You can play anything melee on a similar level of competency with ToB. But it's true that basically everything designed for one-handers is either worthless or better on a two-weapon fighter.

While I am aware of and a fan of Tome of Battle, I also don't think it's perfectly right for some one-handed weapon builds. A swashbucler(Not the class, but the concept.) being one of them. However, I will concede that TOB is capable of mitigating much of one-handed weapon fighting's weaknesses, as you said. :smallsmile:

[NeoSeraphi]

One-handers get the Duelist prestige class, which is at least interesting (And was pretty good before ToB). Additionally, they get extra AC if they're using a shield.

One-handers have the unique option of the Scorpion's Strike feat, which gives them the Improved Grab ability, and, if the weapon they are wielding is a light weapon, the ability to hold onto that weapon and deal lethal damage with it during grapple.

Other than that, you're right, they don't get much

[gorfnab]

Here are three "Swashbuckler" style builds I've toyed with recently that both fight with a one-handed weapon and nothing in the offhand.

Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist


Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version) B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Deadly Defense
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Duelist
12. Duelist - Combat Reflexes
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Karmic Strike, Improved Combat Expertise, or Snap Kick
19. Duelist - B: Deflect Arrows
20. Duelist


Gestalt Version

Human
1. Warblade/ Cobra Strike Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Warblade/ Cobra Strike Monk - B: Mobility
3. Warblade/ Swashbuckler - EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version) B: Weapon Finesse
4. Warblade/ Swashbuckler
5. Warblade/ Swashbuckler - B: Ironheart Aura
6. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat - Deadly Defense
7. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat
8. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat
9. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat - Einhander, B: Combat Reflexes
10. Warblade/ Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade/ Duelist
12. Warblade/ Duelist - Stormguard Warrior
13. Warblade/ Duelist - B: Improved Initiative
14. Warblade/ Duelist
15. Warblade/ Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Warblade/ Duelist
17. Warblade/ Duelist - B: Iron Will
18. Warblade/ Duelist - Karmic Strike, Improved Combat Expertise, or Snap Kick
19. Warblade/ Duelist - B: Deflect Arrows
20. Warblade/ Duelist

[Eldariel]

While I am aware of and a fan of Tome of Battle, I also don't think it's perfectly right for some one-handed weapon builds. A swashbucler(Not the class, but the concept.) being one of them. However, I will concede that TOB is capable of mitigating much of one-handed weapon fighting's weaknesses, as you said. :smallsmile:

Diamond Mind is basically swashbucklery incarnate. And it just so happens e.g. Insightful Strike-line strikes completely negate the base damage and number of attacks you have. And your normal strikes do enough damage even without PA multipliers. And there's stuff like Balance in the Sky to get something off having an empty hand.

Also, ToB classes have access to a good bunch of social skills (particularly Warblade) and skill points, and a bunch of skills that go nicely with the standard issue acrobatics (Sudden Leap, Leap of the Heavens, all the mobility ones and so on). I really don't see what part of a Swashbuckler ToB (Warblade or perhaps Swordsage if you want to mix e.g. Counter Charge and Baffling Defense into the mix, both pretty appropriate for a Swashbuckler) isn't perfect for; certainly by far the most appropriate candidate out of all non-caster 3.5 classes in my books.


One-handers get the Duelist prestige class, which is at least interesting (And was pretty good before ToB). Additionally, they get extra AC if they're using a shield.

What? Only thing it ever was vaguely interesting for was a core-only AC max with UMD using expendables (that is, the most useless theoretical of useless theoretical ****).

Before Int was capped by level there was some remote reason to consider the class (even then, needed armor) but now? Yeah, it's basically a 7-level grind to get Elaborate Parry and even then you're only a turtle that's only ever good against AC-targeting attacks. The bonus damage is worse than just TWFing (it's precision to boot) and that's literally all Duelist gets for one-handing. Duelists are better TWFers than one-handers (and they're terrible at it).

[Machinekng]

Bards get Snowflake Wardance. That's kinda handy. Single weapon fighting is clearly worst by the numbers, but you can do cool fluff. Kind of hard to be a dashing mustachioed swordsman with any two-hander (except possibly a Neanderthal swashbuckler with a greatclub, loincloth, and sweet mustache). Initiator classes and maneuvers can mitigate the einhander style setbacks.

I want to play that so bad now (maybe I'll convince one of my players to do it if I ever get around to running that cavemen-in-space campaign (long story :smallbiggrin:)).

If one handed weapon using includes sword and board, there's a few feats that help it out in PhBII and Complete Warrior (The shield specialization tree and Phalnax figther come to mind) but if you're talking about just using a one-handed weapon...

You'll probably have to go ToB for optimization. I don't know what Einhander does, but one feat isn't enough to build around.

[ScrambledBrains]

Diamond Mind is basically swashbucklery incarnate. And it just so happens e.g. Insightful Strike-line strikes completely negate the base damage and number of attacks you have. And your normal strikes do enough damage even without PA multipliers. And there's stuff like Balance in the Sky to get something off having an empty hand.

Also, ToB classes have access to a good bunch of social skills (particularly Warblade) and skill points, and a bunch of skills that go nicely with the standard issue acrobatics (Sudden Leap, Leap of the Heavens, all the mobility ones and so on). I really don't see what part of a Swashbuckler ToB (Warblade or perhaps Swordsage if you want to mix e.g. Counter Charge and Baffling Defense into the mix, both pretty appropriate for a Swashbuckler) isn't perfect for; certainly by far the most appropriate candidate out of all non-caster 3.5 classes in my books.

I'll be honest and say that I usually percieve Diamond Mind as more swordish that fencerish, but you do happen to have a good point. I suppose I'd just have to change a few minor fluff details about the character's use of the manuver schools, and then let everything else work appopriately as said above. :smallsmile:

[Yuki Akuma]

I'll be honest and say that I usually percieve Diamond Mind as more swordish that fencerish, but you do happen to have a good point. I suppose I'd just have to change a few minor fluff details about the character's use of the manuver schools, and then let everything else work appopriately as said above. :smallsmile:

...

Fencers use swords.

That's basically the definition of fencing - using a sword.

[ScrambledBrains]

...

Fencers use swords.

That's basically the definition of fencing - using a sword.

:smallbiggrin: You're right. What I meant was more a slashing type of sword, as opposed to the rapier used by fencers. Good catch though, boy is my face red. :smallredface:

[Yuki Akuma]

Sabre fencing involves a slashing sword.

So does kendo (except that one's made of wood/grass).

:smalltongue:

[ScrambledBrains]

Sabre fencing involves a slashing sword.

So does kendo (except that one's made of wood/grass).

:smalltongue:

Geez, I gotta get my facts straight. :smallbiggrin: My bad again. I apparently need to learn more about swords.

[Bob]

in game terms, using a single one handed weapon without a shield, with a shield even, is basically deliberately not using a resource for no reason, so you can't really expect to have the same advantage as someone who is using that resource. that being said, here are some ideas apart from the ToB.

not relying on extra attacks opens up the option to attack as a standard action and a move action to gain some bonus. the iconic core einhander situation that comes to mind would be a rogue using the improved feint feat to open up a sneakattack.
also comes to mind is deep impact spaming, but that is more of a pa/thf thing. some shady interpretation of the exotic weapon master could get you weilding an exotic one handed weapon, like an elven thinblade, but applying powerattack as a thw.
could have a swift hunter with the spring attack feat tree from phb2, allowing you to be actually moving with your move actions, attacking multiple targets, and still getting a source of precision dmg

not that any of those ideas are good ideas.

[DeAnno]

Part of the problem is that animated shields exist. If they didn't, at higher levels using a shield could theoretically provide +7 to AC and other enchantment benefits if properly kitted out and buffed. But since Animated is just +2 iirc, it only costs you +2 of shieldyness to essentially gain a hand, which is rarely a bad idea. The way things are now you only really want to hold a shield if you're a full ranged caster and your hands aren't doing anything.

[WinWin]

Casters benefit from having a free hand. Though they can just as easily use a two handed weapon.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Play warblade. Get diamond mind and iron heart, if your DM allows homebrew, dancing leaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614).

[FMArthur]

Yeah, most good one-handed options boil down to "you wouldn't lose too much by forgoing two-handed benefits", like ToB maneuvers. Things like Snowflake Wardance where you actually benefit from a one-handed style are extremely rare in D&D.

In Pathfinder there is the Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) which synergizes with the Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)'s Spell Combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus#TOC-Spell-Combat-Ex-) class feature quite well, being attack modifications that require a free hand. Both are very easily ported to 3.5, since neither makes use of any new Pathfinder features. Even the Magus's skill list contains none of the condensed skills; just drop the Fly skill (for which 3.5 has no use) and give it Concentration (which is given to casters by default in PF).

[Eldariel]

Things like Snowflake Wardance where you actually benefit from a one-handed style are extremely rare in D&D.

Even Snowflake Wardance is better for two-weapon fighting.

[FMArthur]

Oh. I must have misremembered, thinking it required one empty hand. My bad.

[Talya]

The Errol Flynn-styled swashbuckling swordsman should, for style, actually have two weapon fighting (Rapier & Main Gauche.)

[Big Fau]

One-handers get the Duelist prestige class, which is at least interesting (And was pretty good before ToB). Additionally, they get extra AC if they're using a shield.

Duelist is trash by comparison to many other PrCs outside of Core. It isn't even dip-worthy. Seriously, that class was shot when it was printed, ToB just finished the job.

[FMArthur]

No it didn't. Duellist was dead straight out of the door; it didn't take 4 years to finally kick the bucket. Even Complete Warrior/Adventurer-era melee class design was instantly superior.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No it didn't. Duellist was dead straight out of the door and didn't take 4 years to finally kick the bucket. Even Complete Warrior/Adventurer-era melee class design was instantly superior.

Yep. You give up all armor to add a secondary or tertiary stat to your AC? A feat tax of two feat slots? A bonus to initiative that a feat could give you? An ability that's useless because you're not provoking AoOs?

[Kantolin]

An ability that's useless because you're not provoking AoOs?

Hey - I'd like to call you on that one. ^_^ Having a rather impressive +8 to AC when you provoke gives you great encouragement to go ahead and provoke attacks of opportunity - they'll only hit you on a 20. 'Soaking' AOOs from enemies, presuming most of them lack combat reflexes, enables your party to wander to their leisure, especially when threatened - or if they opt not to take the AOOs, you can then walk to a more advantageous position.

I mean, normally you wouldn't want to provoke AOOs, but when you're a duelist with enhanced mobility, you change tactics so this isn't a big deal.

Now, does that make it worth it? Probably not - and the rest of your points stand. ^_^ But hey!

[FMArthur]

I see. So, what do you do when you get into "a more advantageous position" after they figure out you're not worth wasting their AoOs on?

[Kantolin]

Hey - I didn't disagree that duelist was a poor option. I'm just pointing out that, when you have enhanced mobility, the default is to go use it, not to always avoid taking AOOs. ^_^ Maybe you'll provide flanking.

...although I really have to question the logic of the game which decides 'Eh, he hit me last round for not very much damage, he's obviously not a threat' and ignores you. Can I solve the BBEG as a two handed ubercharger by happening to miss or hit very lightly on my first round, being ignored, and then overmauling the target? Will the enemy magically stop ignoring me if I'm certain classes?

[TroubleBrewing]

Doesn't "Balance on the Sky" require at least 1 hand free?

[Eldariel]

Doesn't "Balance on the Sky" require at least 1 hand free?

Yup. Ninja'd you to it :smalltongue:

[Optimator]

One of my favorite characters was a swashbuckler using ToB. He was something like Sneak Attack Fighter 1 Swashbuckler 3 Warblade X. Using Staggering Strike, he would (improved) feint and follow up with a standard action strike, staggering everything. He had Einhander too. Fun stuff.

[Prime32]

In Pathfinder there is the Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) which synergizes with the Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)'s Spell Combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus#TOC-Spell-Combat-Ex-) class feature quite well, being attack modifications that require a free hand. Both are very easily ported to 3.5, since neither makes use of any new Pathfinder features. Even the Magus's skill list contains none of the condensed skills; just drop the Fly skill (for which 3.5 has no use) and give it Concentration (which is given to casters by default in PF).Also, Pirahna Strike is a version of Power Attack which gives 2:1 for light weapons, and 1:1 for off-hand light weapons.

Here's a homebrew feat I did:

Spelldancer [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Arcane caster level 1st, proficiency with longsword or rapier, Perform (dance) 4 ranks
Benefit: You may use your arcane caster level in place of your base attack bonus when attacking with a longsword or rapier in one hand and nothing in the other. You cannot attack with weapons other than your longsword or rapier in the round you gain this benefit (including touch spells, but not spells channeled through the weapon).
Special: Spelldancer can be used in place of the Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier) feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. An elf wizard may select this feat as one of his bonus feats.

[gorfnab]

An ability that's useless because you're not provoking AoOs?
Robilars Gambit + Stormguard Warrior + Combat Reflexes
This is the combo that's in the 1st and 3rd builds in my previous post on this thread. AoOs can be exploited in entertaining ways.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Robilars Gambit + Stormguard Warrior + Combat Reflexes
This is the combo that's in the 1st and 3rd builds in my previous post on this thread. AoOs can be exploited in entertaining ways.

It only applies when you're moving. Though stormguard warrior can certainly be good when combined with the +8 AC...

Edit: never mind, you have to actually get an AoO, not provoke one.

[Ardantis]

Call me weird, but I loved the option in Complete Scoundrel for making a one-handed swashbuckler using the Daring Outlaw feat.

Daring Outlaw makes Swashbuckler and Rogue levels stack for Grace (bonus to Reflex Saves from Swashbuckler,) the minor AC bonus from Swashbuckler, and most importantly, Sneak Attack damage.

Now, taking a bunch of levels of Swashbuckler would usually be a waste, but with the Sneak Attack damage, it's not a bad option. You get Weapon Finesse, Int to damage (making Str a less important stat,) BAB, plus some skill points and all of the movement skills plus Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills. Go Rogue for all the rest of the levels, and grab the skill feats (Acrobatic Backstab, a bunch of the movement ones) which give you the ability to caterwaul across the battlefield and sneak attack without needing a flank. Take feats like Expertise and some movement feats, and maybe go for Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target for a tactical feat based on motion and dodging.

You're still a skill monkey (because you're mostly Rogue,) but those levels of Swashbuckler really add to your combat prowess, and Int to damage means that you'll be hitting for some decent crits with your rapier using a stat which adds to your skills. There's also a skill trick for hidden dagger sneak attacks, and you can always branch out into some of the sneak attack feats at higher levels for ways to cripple opponents (you'll have the damage dice to spare.)

Ultimately, this swashbuckler is not a boss-killer, but he's a fun skill monkey who can actually fight in an acrobatic and entertaining manner. I built an NPC this way for a game a few years ago, and although the damage wasn't incredibly consistent, he was always surprising and had a knack for being in the right place at the right time in combat (because he could be anywhere.)

It's like the opposite of a Dwarven Defender.

Just a thought.

Edit: Oh, and this is a one-handed weapon build because the Swashbuckler's Weapon Finesse and Int to damage require a one-handed Weapon Finesse weapon.

Bear in mind there is a TWF Swashbuckler variant in one of the Complete books, I think. You might lose Grace, though, so Daring Outlaw would not be an option in that case.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Even in rl einhander is a strictly inferior style used only in gentlman's duel's, athletic competion and instances where one has to fight somewhere where it was socially acceptable to bring a sword but not a shield or off hand weapon.

If you must use a style that is only used in fantasy settings why not represent it with a style that actually works mechanically.

Two weapon fighting with unarmed, spiked gauntlet, or improvised weapons.

or

Use a weapon that can be weilded in one or both hands and use the two handed stats while pretending to one hand.

[Cieyrin]

Edit: Oh, and this is a one-handed weapon build because the Swashbuckler's Weapon Finesse and Int to damage require a one-handed Weapon Finesse weapon.

Bear in mind there is a TWF Swashbuckler variant in one of the Complete books, I think. You might lose Grace, though, so Daring Outlaw would not be an option in that case.

Actually, Swash's Weapon Finesse doesn't have any restrictions on it, other than what it normally imposes, which is if you use a shield, you take the ACP as an attack penalty. Insightful Strike just has a weight restriction (no medium or heavy armor, light load only).

That ACF is Shield of Blades, which replaces the Dodge Bonus, not Grace, so it's still all good for Daring Outlaws. Arcane Stunt replaces Grace, which is unfortunate, since Arcane Stunt is amazing. :smallfrown:

[Eldariel]

Bear in mind there is a TWF Swashbuckler variant in one of the Complete books, I think. You might lose Grace, though, so Daring Outlaw would not be an option in that case.

Daring Outlaw is a standard build...as TWF. Read Swashbuckler again; Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike are limited to Finessable weapons. All light weapons (ones you TWF with) are Finessable. Not sure what you're thinking of here; none of the restrictions you mentioned exist printed black-on-white.

[Optimator]

I think you're thinking of the variant in the PHBII.

[Groverfield]

Play a monk with a +5 defending rapier. Make all attacks unarmed, and use the rapier to parry. Might not be typical swashbuckling, but I think it would earn its curly mustache.

[ScrambledBrains]

Play a monk with a +5 defending rapier. Make all attacks unarmed, and use the rapier to parry. Might not be typical swashbuckling, but I think it would earn its curly mustache.

I'll admit, this made me laugh. :smallbiggrin:

[Ardantis]

Optimator (and others), you're right, I'm thinking of the PHB II variant, called Shield of Blades. It's a defense bonus, but it does require you to attack with two weapons in a round (which was why I mistakenly believed it to grant the two-weapon feat chain or something along those lines).

After reading it, the reason I don't like it is because the defense bonus requires a full attack to activate (which a mobile combatant may not always be delivering) and the normal class gets a flat dodge bonus, which may not apply to everything but is more or less permanently active). Plus Daring Outlaw grants the AC bonus to the Rogue levels (although I think I'd allow Shield of Blades to work too in a game I ran).

Also, yes, this build does not strictly prohibit two-weapon fighting, and for straight damage that is absolutely the way to go. However, feat chains including Elusive Target, Spring Attack, Sneak Attack feats and Savvy Rogue to boost Crippling Strike make for a one-handed build that specializes in mobility, hit-and-run, and status effects and, ultimately, strength drain. Plus, hitting with the sneak attack makes skirmishing plausible from a damage standpoint.

Does this sound like a new build? I might have to build this to see if it doesn't suck. Particular attention must be paid to the Skill Tricks to make sure that sneak attacking and unusual mobility are reliable in combat.

What do you think? And what dips might be helpful? (Human Paragon, Tricksters, etc).

Also, what is Arcane Stunt? Sounds sweet.

[Cieyrin]

Also, what is Arcane Stunt? Sounds sweet.

Complete Mage, replaces Grace with Int bonus+1/day uses of spell-likes, generally mobility and defensive in nature for 1-3 rounds at a time. You start with one spell-like and gain new ones, which correspondingly increases the time by 1 round. It's pretty neat, yeah.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder's Magus rewards an Einhander style. Of course, you're using magic with the other hand so it's not as if the sword is the deciding factor, but you can still do some cool stuff.

Definitely Daring Outlaw is how I would do this though, at least for a purely martial setup.

[Ardantis]

I agree. You're decidedly secondary melee, although that's cool (and when are duelists the main characters outside of The Princess Bride?)

I don't play Pathfinder, but it's about time a sword/magic dude was available. I hear that in 3.5 Ardents are the only truly viable gish.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't play Pathfinder, but it's about time a sword/magic dude was available. I hear that in 3.5 Ardents are the only truly viable gish.

Jade Phoenix Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[Cieyrin]

Jade Phoenix Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Suel Arcanamach, Abjurant Champion, Knight of the Raven.

[Eldariel]

Suel Arcanamach, Abjurant Champion, Knight of the Raven.

Swiftblade, Ordained Champion, Druid (period), Cleric (period), Illithid Slayer, Psychic Warrior, Duskblade...

Sufficient to say, 3.5 has more than its share of viable gishes (though the power levels vary; obviously anything that doesn't get access to 9th level spells is ways under the ones with eventual 9th level spell access).

[aquaticrna]

when it comes to mobile melee combat my favorite is the 3.5 Dervish, the dervish dance class feature gives you your move action and your full attack, you just have to move 5 ft between attacks minimum. also gives you bonuses to attack and damage! very handy for moving through large groups of mooks, or full attacking a bad guy then moving behind some kind of cover! Combine with the ability to fly for more fun times. When i played mine i talked my dm into letting me use two one handed spike chain equivalents (they were bladed chains) did d6 with a 2x crit, but 5 and 10' attack abilities

[Greenish]

Also, Pirahna Strike is a version of Power Attack which gives 2:1 for light weapons, and 1:1 for off-hand light weapons.Exotic weapon master can get 2:1 PA on an one-handed weapon.

when are duelists the main characters outside of The Princess Bride?Zorro? Pirates of Caribbean?

Errol Flynn?


[Edit]:
When i played mine i talked my dm into letting me use two one handed spike chain equivalents (they were bladed chains) did d6 with a 2x crit, but 5 and 10' attack abilitiesThose have actual, printed stats too, you know. Spinning swords from Secrets of Sarlona are pretty much exactly what you describe, except they have 19-20 crit range.

[FMArthur]

I agree. You're decidedly secondary melee, although that's cool (and when are duelists the main characters outside of The Princess Bride?)

I don't play Pathfinder, but it's about time a sword/magic dude was available. I hear that in 3.5 Ardents are the only truly viable gish.

I assume you're only talking about base classes? Psychic warriors, duskblades and factotums are quite viable gishes, with casting not much weaker than ardents. Bards can be built to gish, and clerics and archivist with arcane-esque domain spells can be very gishy. Rangers can be the best base class gish of all with the right choices.

Anyway, the magus is actually very 3.5 compatible, so you could easily use it in 3.5 without any issues. It uses traditional spellcasting, mostly traditional spells, has self-contained class features, and gets none of the condensed skills. The only change you need to make is to get rid of the Fly skill (nonfunctional for 3.5) and give it the Concentration skill (which is free as part of spellcasting in PF). That's literally all you need to do to use it in 3.5.

[Cieyrin]

[Edit]: Those have actual, printed stats too, you know. Spinning swords from Secrets of Sarlona are pretty much exactly what you describe, except they have 19-20 crit range.

Secrets of Sarlona is a kinda obscure Eberron book, y'know. I don't expect everybody to be aware of or have access to it, especially if you don't play Eberron. It's perfectly viable to homebrew your own if you don't want a book that's mostly fluff on the history and people of a continent that's not generally the main focus of the campaign setting.

[Prime32]

Secrets of Sarlona is a kinda obscure Eberron book, y'know. I don't expect everybody to be aware of or have access to it, especially if you don't play Eberron. It's perfectly viable to homebrew your own if you don't want a book that's mostly fluff on the history and people of a continent that's not generally the main focus of the campaign setting.Secrets of Sarlona is where Tashalatora comes from. :smallwink:

[Cieyrin]

Secrets of Sarlona is where Tashalatora comes from. :smallwink:

There's lots of neat stuff in it, I know, I'm just saying Eberron is pretty heavy on the fluff in some of their books, somewhat more than Faerun tends to be, which isn't necessarily what everyone wants.

Believe me, I love me some hooked swords and cutting wheels and Dreamtouched feats but that doesn't mean everybody necessarily does and would want to spend the $25-30 on it just for feats and equipment.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The thing is that one-handed spiked chain stats were printed YEARS before Secrets of Sarlona.

Kusari-gama 1d6 X 2 (reach as spiked chain) light weapons, presented in the DMG pg. 145:smallwink:

(Which are actually exactly the same of what aquaticrna homebrewed)

[Greenish]

Secrets of Sarlona is a kinda obscure Eberron book, y'know. I don't expect everybody to be aware of or have access to it, especially if you don't play Eberron. It's perfectly viable to homebrew your own if you don't want a book that's mostly fluff on the history and people of a continent that's not generally the main focus of the campaign setting.I wasn't saying that he's doing something horribly wrong by homebrewing, I was just pointing out the fact that the very self-same thing has also been published in an official book as a curiosity.

Also, SoS is an awesome splat.


(Which are actually exactly the same of what aquaticrna homebrewed)Except for being light instead of one-handed. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I wasn't saying that he's doing something horribly wrong by homebrewing, I was just pointing out the fact that the very self-same thing has also been published in an official book as a curiosity.

Also, SoS is an awesome splat.

Except for being light instead of one-handed. :smalltongue:

I knew I should have double checked:smallredface: oh and yes I agree SoS is awesome

[Tvtyrant]

Zorro?


Uses three swords. Don't be silly Greenish :smallyuk:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Uses three swords. Don't be silly Greenish :smallyuk:

Yeah! And he uses katanas, not longswords or rapiers!

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am sad to say I didn't get what TvTyrant meant until your post swiftmongoose :smallfrown:

[Cieyrin]

Uses three swords. Don't be silly Greenish :smallyuk:


Yeah! And he uses katanas, not longswords or rapiers!

*facepalm*

He meant the pulp hero, not the One Piece character who came about long afterwards.

http://celebritywonder.ugo.com/wp/Antonio_Banderas_in_The_Legend_of_Zorro_Wallpaper_ 2_1024.jpg

[Hiro Protagonest]

*facepalm*

He meant the pulp hero, not the One Piece character who came about long afterwards.

http://celebritywonder.ugo.com/wp/Antonio_Banderas_in_The_Legend_of_Zorro_Wallpaper_ 2_1024.jpg

We know that. :smalltongue:

Besides, Zoro's way cooler.

[Psyren]

Isn't the One Piece guy spelled "Zoro" anyway? An homage perhaps, but clearly different characters.


Besides, Zoro's way cooler.

This strikes me as saying Conan is cooler than Sherlock Holmes. One is certainly more modern, but his creator was clearly inspired by the other which came before and would likely disagree with your assessment.

[Prime32]

Isn't the One Piece guy spelled "Zoro" anyway? An homage perhaps, but clearly different characters.And this is why I prefer calling him Zolo.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This strikes me as saying Conan is cooler than Sherlock Holmes. One is certainly more modern, but his creator was clearly inspired by the other which came before and would likely disagree with your assessment.

A masked dude who fought with a single weapon and was created in America was the inspiration for a guy with a Japanese name who fought with three katanas?

[Psyren]

A masked dude who fought with a single weapon and was created in America was the inspiration for a guy with a Japanese name who fought with three katanas?

Yes, I think the honorable outlaw swordmasters that share a name are not a complete coincidence.

[Cieyrin]

A masked dude who fought with a single weapon and was created in America was the inspiration for a guy with a Japanese name who fought with three katanas?

The pulp hero Zorro was an expert sword fighter, something that Zolo aspires towards, though on a different path and different reasons. Zolo's master, Hawk-Eyes, shows some very strong similarities to Zorro in his art and fighting style. Finally, just because characters were made on different continents does by no means preclude drawing inspiration. It could very well be that Oda did research outside of his home country and good on him for drawing from classic heroes for his characters.

[Greenish]

A masked dude who fought with a single weapon and was created in America was the inspiration for a guy with a Japanese name who fought with three katanas?That's almost as absurd as an American animation about lil' forest critters somehow inspiring Japanese comic artists. :smallamused:

Or a book series about a French gentleman thief somehow having something to do with a Japanese comic/cartoon/movie series. Why, that's simply inconceivable!

[enderlord99]

...

Fencers use swords.

That's basically the definition of fencing - using a sword.


:smallbiggrin: You're right. What I meant was more a slashing type of sword, as opposed to the rapier used by fencers. Good catch though, boy is my face red. :smallredface:


Sabre fencing involves a slashing sword.

So does kendo (except that one's made of wood/grass).

:smalltongue:


Geez, I gotta get my facts straight. :smallbiggrin: My bad again. I apparently need to learn more about swords.

Fghter (8-bit theater): I LIKE SWORDS.

[Psyren]

That's almost as absurd as an American animation about lil' forest critters somehow inspiring Japanese comic artists. :smallamused:

Or a book series about a French gentleman thief somehow having something to do with a Japanese comic/cartoon/movie series. Why, that's simply inconceivable!

I know enough to know that these are references, but not enough to identify them...

[Cieyrin]

I know enough to know that these are references, but not enough to identify them...

The second is Lupin the 3rd, I don't recognize the first...

[Ardantis]

WOW mad thread resurrection. I was very surprised to see this on the first page.

Yes, you are all right, there are many viable gishes in 3.5 (now).

Also, there are other main character fencers besides in The Princess Bride (although Errol Flyn was sort of a weird example, because we remember him, the typecast actor, more than any of his characters!)

[Cieyrin]

WOW mad thread resurrection. I was very surprised to see this on the first page.

It's been a little over a week, that's not necroing. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

The pulp hero Zorro was an expert sword fighter, something that Zolo aspires towards, though on a different path and different reasons. Zolo's master, Hawk-Eyes, shows some very strong similarities to Zorro in his art and fighting style. Finally, just because characters were made on different continents does by no means preclude drawing inspiration. It could very well be that Oda did research outside of his home country and good on him for drawing from classic heroes for his characters.

Thank you for pointing that out. Hawk-Eyes (minus the anime sword) is a clear tribute. So he got the design, while his pupil got the namesake.


The second is Lupin the 3rd, I don't recognize the first...

Good eye, definitely Lupin.

I'm thinking the first might be Bambi, leading to... Princess Mononoke? Maybe? Nope, still lost :smallconfused:

[Marnath]

The pulp hero Zorro was an expert sword fighter, something that Zolo aspires towards, though on a different path and different reasons. Zolo's master, Hawk-Eyes, shows some very strong similarities to Zorro in his art and fighting style. Finally, just because characters were made on different continents does by no means preclude drawing inspiration. It could very well be that Oda did research outside of his home country and good on him for drawing from classic heroes for his characters.

You know, Zorro isn't just a pulp hero. There was a real guy that he's based on.

[Ardantis]

Really? Who?

[Psyren]

There are several possible inspirations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro#Inspirations) for the character, but none are conclusive.

[ericgrau]

@zoro, 3 swords are cooler than 2, duh :smalltongue:

[Zeful]

I know enough to know that these are references, but not enough to identify them...

Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse (and other Disney characters) inspired the current design trend in Japanese Anime (short for the English word "Animation") and manga.

[Psyren]

Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse (and other Disney characters) inspired the current design trend in Japanese Anime (short for the English word "Animation") and manga.

"Forest critters?" Mickey was a pilot, for god's sake!

[Tvtyrant]

I am sad to say I didn't get what TvTyrant meant until your post swiftmongoose :smallfrown:

For shame. :P

[darksolitaire]

Zolo was not inspired by Zorro, but by this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_l%27Olonnais). Ooda mentions this in some One Piece book.

[Xtomjames]

Power attack, cleave and greater cleave, improved sunder, daring warrior, deadly concussion, deadly defense, combat expertise, deft strike, neraph charge, favored power attack, Flay Foe, Flick of the Wrist, Fortuitous Strike, Haunting Weapons, Knifefighter, Necropotent, Power Critical, Snowflake Wardance, Skewer Foe, Shadowstrike, Sanctify Martial Strike, Resounding Blow, Pulverize Foe, Spring Attack, Vile Martial Strike, Monkey Grip, Weapon Finesse; all of these feats can apply or do apply to one-handed weapons or to all weapons.

Some homebrew feats that also work well, include Heavy Power Attack.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heavy_Power_Attack_(3.5e_Feat)

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the D20 Feats compendium or the Ultimate Feats books. Some feats like Darting Weapon only apply to light and one-handed weapons.

[Big Fau]

Power attack, cleave and greater cleave, improved sunder, daring warrior, deadly concussion, deadly defense, combat expertise, deft strike, neraph charge, favored power attack, Flay Foe, Flick of the Wrist, Fortuitous Strike, Haunting Weapons, Knifefighter, Necropotent, Power Critical, Snowflake Wardance, Skewer Foe, Shadowstrike, Sanctify Martial Strike, Resounding Blow, Pulverize Foe, Spring Attack, Vile Martial Strike, Monkey Grip, Weapon Finesse; all of these feats can apply or do apply to one-handed weapons or to all weapons.

Some homebrew feats that also work well, include Heavy Power Attack.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heavy_Power_Attack_(3.5e_Feat)

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the D20 Feats compendium or the Ultimate Feats books. Some feats like Darting Weapon only apply to light and one-handed weapons.

...Spring Attack? Sanctify Martial Strike? I think you completely missed the point of this thread.

And the d20 Feats Compendium and Ultimate Feats are very much 3rd party. And incredibly unbalanced.