Neck Snapping

[Etrivar]

Hullo Playgrounders!

Does anyone know if rules for deliberately snapping someone's neck exist?

If they do, where are they?

If they don't, any suggestions as to how it might work?

Thank you very much for your assistance!

[agahii]

Coup de grace with unarmed strike and say it was a neck snap.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Not sure exactly how to play that. Maybe a strength check to kill. If it fails it'd be an unarmed coup de grace.

[Malimar]

Call a neck a "carried or worn object" and use an unarmed strike to sunder it?

...that would probably be an OP thing to allow, right?

[Ravens_cry]

Unarmed coup de grace is probably the best bet. If you really want add to it and don't mind grappling with grapple rules, ask if you can try suffocating a target once they are pinned, using drowning rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious) Then, once they reach 0 hp, they are helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless)and therefore can be coup de graced.
It's still not very useful for full on combat, but if you make yourself a good enough grappler, you can take out single targets, which is really the Solid Snake way anyway.

[Ashram]

Death Attack with an unarmed strike; otherwise coup de grace.

D&D really doesn't do well mechanically with things that are a real-life auto-kill.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's best done as a CDG or Death Attack. It doesn't matter what kind of penalties you apply to the attack roll, letting players auto-kill is a recipe for disaster.

[Ravens_cry]

It's best done as a CDG or Death Attack. It doesn't matter what kind of penalties you apply to the attack roll, letting players auto-kill is a recipe for disaster.
And vise versa.

[Kojiro]

It'd probably need a successful surprise attack and/or grapple to work, whatever method you use. You can't just reach over and break someone's neck unless you're absurdly strong.

Beyond that... I also recommend a coupe de grace or strength check, after a grapple probably. Can't be done mid-combat either, at least not easily.

[Remmirath]

Usually we do it as first having to successfully grapple the opponent and keep them grappled for at least one round followed by an opposed strength check; if you roll higher than the person you're trying to snap the neck of, you've got it.

It's come up in games I've been in more often than you might think.

[Zonugal]

I think an unarmed strike during a coup de grace would work pretty well. With a sample 1st level monk you would get something akin to a fort dc of around 20 (and when dealing an initial 7 points of damage you have a good job of dropping some npcs).

Now an ascetic monk (rogue 1/monk 2) should be hitting a fort dc of around 25 or higher (and when dealing an initial 20 points of damage you have a great job of dropping most 2nd-level characters).

[Bob]

Unarmed coup de grace is probably the best bet. If you really want add to it and don't mind grappling with grapple rules, ask if you can try suffocating a target once they are pinned, using drowning rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious) Then, once they reach 0 hp, they are helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless)and therefore can be coup de graced.
It's still not very useful for full on combat, but if you make yourself a good enough grappler, you can take out single targets, which is really the Solid Snake way anyway.

this kinda reminds me of that reaping mauler prc. thats in cw(?)

but without special abilities, characters just don't really get options to bypass other characters' hps with normal attacks, i mean, the hps are there for a reason

now if you are talking about a trap or something, yeah, snapping someone's head off is just as lethal as it would be to rl humans, but thats an awfully cruel trap.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, you could do non-lethal damage while they are grappled and/or pinned they are unconscious and fluff it as suffocation, THEN make with the coup de grace. It probably would be faster anyway.

[Seffbasilisk]

Swordsage'd on Reaping Mauler.

My current IRL DM allows us to describe the manner, when we make a kill. Generally, an unarmed attack that drops an opponent to negatives or outright kills, is powerful enough to be flavor-texted as a neck-snap.

[Fitz10019]

Just remember that 'pinned' is not the same as 'helpless.' (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a) As others have said, save neck-snapping as a post-0HP situation.

[Psyren]

I like the opposed strength check while pinned idea - a golem or giant shouldn't have much problems snapping an elf child's neck for instance.

[WinWin]

Oriental Adventures had the feat Choke Hold. It forced a save vs. being knocked unconscious during a grapple. Once the target is knocked out, the are a valid target for coup de grace.

3.0 sourcebook. I'm not sure if it was updated for 3.5.

[Optimator]

D&D really doesn't do well mechanically with things that are a real-life auto-kill.

Yeah, this.


My current IRL DM allows us to describe the manner, when we make a kill. Generally, an unarmed attack that drops an opponent to negatives or outright kills, is powerful enough to be flavor-texted as a neck-snap.

That might be the best way to go about it, with such an abstracted combat system.

[Ravens_cry]

Oriental Adventures had the feat Choke Hold. It forced a save vs. being knocked unconscious during a grapple. Once the target is knocked out, the are a valid target for coup de grace.

3.0 sourcebook. I'm not sure if it was updated for 3.5.
I am pretty sure it hasn't, but that sounds like an excellent way to do this. Like with , well everything, ask your DM. Of course, there is still the matter of a certain spell making your build useless, and it comes in a convenient ring form for non-casters, but I digress.

[Showzilla]

My current game has had neck snaps so far:
Malcom breaks an orcs neck
Wrath broke the guardian of the bridge
my method for handling it is this:
initiate grapple
win grapple check
win pin check
make grapple check vs fort save+str
I make an unseen roll to determine if the effect is paralysis or death.
badabing, badaboom, badadead.

[Essence_of_War]

this kinda reminds me of that reaping mauler prc. thats in cw(?)


Yeah, the Reaping Mauler has an ability like this. It's pretty poor as written. Basically, if you hold a pin for 3 rds you can force a Save or Die. Against an utterly trivial DC.

Fantastic capstone ability...

[awa]

yhea a giant can kill an elf child by breaking it's neck but that represented just find by the fact that it does a lot of damge and a elf child is unlikely to have more than 1 hp

[KillianHawkeye]

yhea a giant can kill an elf child by breaking it's neck but that represented just find by the fact that it does a lot of damge and a elf child is unlikely to have more than 1 hp

Yeah, this. Think about it, you're not going to easily snap the neck of somebody unless they're way below your level or have been significantly weakened anyway. That's exactly how HP works.

So my answer is Grapple check to deal damage when the guy has only a few HP left. Then I, as the DM, describe it as snapping his neck.

[Sith_Happens]

Death Attack with an unarmed strike; otherwise coup de grace.

D&D really doesn't do well mechanically with things that are a real-life auto-kill.

Actually, it's more like the reason those things are all auto-kills in real life is because in real life most of us are 1st level Commoners and have a mere 4 HP.:smalltongue:

[Elboxo]

If you look in the book of vile darkness there's a profession 'Executioner' When an opponent is pinned with an axe you can decapitate them on like a dc 20, automatically kills..... apply this to your fists? Pin them and falcon execution xD
I doubt anyone would ever allow this, let alone the profession ( It would mean a two man team could take out any one opponent as long as they could grapple it and pin it, while the other man decapitates the enemy... ) I think if i DID allow this profession, if people started pinning and executing i'd at least make it a 50% chance to kill their friend xD

[Username_too_lo]

Actually, it's more like the reason those things are all auto-kills in real life is because in real life most of us are 1st level Commoners and have a mere 4 HP.:smalltongue:

This is one of the many stupid things about D&D. I decided to make an old age 12th level Druid who'd dedicated his life to purity until his family were wiped out, and had never taken an agressive spell in his life. OFF THE DAMN BAT - he was +7 to all attacks, the same as a level 7 warrior.

Of course, the simple answer would be 'cripple your own character', but D&D only really rewards killing things so if you don't want to be a millstone for the rest of the party - even if you only want to keep your ranks of heal up for what's needed - you're going to have to open some whoop-ass, or at least put yourself in harm's way.

[Zombimode]

This is one of the many stupid things about D&D. I decided to make an old age 12th level Druid who'd dedicated his life to purity until his family were wiped out, and had never taken an agressive spell in his life. OFF THE DAMN BAT - he was +7 to all attacks, the same as a level 7 warrior.

How did he manage to achieve level 12, then?

That you made him a level 12 character is more the problem than this character having BAB +9.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, you definitely need to do it in a situation where you get sneak attack... The technique is made for taking down sentries silently, so yea. Also, it isn't the technique they show in the movies (that one is specifically made to be safe and look dangerous, I think), I think it's more not ROTATING the neck, it's more pushing the neck sideways or something? Does anyone know anything the historically accurate techniques used in that sneaky combat situation and stuff??

Also, I'm TOTALLY a 1st level Expert, not a first level commoner! So are you guys! We get good nutrition and education in first world countries!

[Username_too_lo]

How did he manage to achieve level 12, then?

That you made him a level 12 character is more the problem than this character having BAB +9.

Story XP.

Lots and lots of story XP (Well, he was in his early sixties, so forty years of adventuring all mounts up - just takes longer to get going than a sword-whacker)

[Ezekiul]

Theres a prestige class called black blood cultist irc that can coup de grace in a grapple. its in champions of ruin, and I think its fourth level ability is actually called snap neck or something like that. (dont have my books near me)

[Prime32]

D&D really doesn't do well mechanically with things that are a real-life auto-kill.Considering that a normal human has 2hp... yes. Yes it does. Just because an untrained man can't kill Superman in one move doesn't make the rules bad.

Yeah, the Reaping Mauler has an ability like this. It's pretty poor as written. Basically, if you hold a pin for 3 rds you can force a Save or Die. Against an utterly trivial DC.

Fantastic capstone ability...The worst part of this is that they can already force an opponent unconscious by pinning them for 2 rounds, at which point it's easier to let go and coup de grace. Well, apart from the PrC making you worse at grappling...

[Sith_Happens]

Also, I'm TOTALLY a 1st level Expert, not a first level commoner! So are you guys! We get good nutrition and education in first world countries!

I didn't even consider that. While we're at it, what are your skills and two feats?:smalltongue:

[subject42]

It's Pathfinder, but Ultimate Combat has a feat named "neckbreaker" that will let you deal STR/DEX damage in a grapple.

[Essence_of_War]

The worst part of this is that they can already force an opponent unconscious by pinning them for 2 rounds, at which point it's easier to let go and coup de grace. Well, apart from the PrC making you worse at grappling...

Yeah...I think I'm going to mention this in that dysfunctional rules thread :smallbiggrin:

What a HORRIBLE class.

[Hazard_Pay]

My DM has always allowed a CDG for an instant kill. Even termed it as snapping their necks. If you had a target helpless, it was a full round attack for a CDG and instant kill. It was only viable on the same type of targets a sneak would be applicable to. (no undead or oozes)

DM's call of course.

[SowZ]

Usually we do it as first having to successfully grapple the opponent and keep them grappled for at least one round followed by an opposed strength check; if you roll higher than the person you're trying to snap the neck of, you've got it.

It's come up in games I've been in more often than you might think.

You should have to overcome their STR check by at least 10 if you are going to go that route. If you are just a few points higher, it means they are still giving good resistance, (FAR too much resistance to allow their necks to be snapped.) If I was going to incorporate that rule, I would say you must first initiate a grapple attack. Then, you would have to make a STR check which has to exceed the enemies STR check by the enemies CON score. Then, the enemy gets one more chance to escape by either A. Trying another STR check. B. Making a grapple/escape artist attempt C. Interupt or have an ally interuppt the attempt with a spell or somesuch

[Douglas]

My DM has always allowed a CDG for an instant kill. Even termed it as snapping their necks. If you had a target helpless, it was a full round attack for a CDG and instant kill. It was only viable on the same type of targets a sneak would be applicable to. (no undead or oozes)

DM's call of course.
That's not a house rule, that's the normal rule. Problem is, it only applies when your victim is helpless, and most of the discussion here is about doing it when your victim is merely grappled or pinned. Even a pinned enemy is still a long way from helpless and therefore not normally a valid target for CDG.

[NNescio]

That's not a house rule, that's the normal rule. Problem is, it only applies when your victim is helpless, and most of the discussion here is about doing it when your victim is merely grappled or pinned. Even a pinned enemy is still a long way from helpless and therefore not normally a valid target for CDG.

CdG does allow for a Fort Save though (assuming the target survives the initial damage), which his DM has probably houseruled away.

[Hazard_Pay]

That's not a house rule, that's the normal rule. Problem is, it only applies when your victim is helpless, and most of the discussion here is about doing it when your victim is merely grappled or pinned. Even a pinned enemy is still a long way from helpless and therefore not normally a valid target for CDG.

Ah sorry missed the Grapple bit. Looking back at Reaping Mauler , don't they get a kill based... err wait yeah nvm It's 3 rounds in a grapple for that power to have effect (Still pretty beastly when you consider the character using it is set up to make sure you don't get out of a grapple.)

Yeah I'm not sure that's even feasible vs. a target that is aware of your intent. I'd almost be ok with a surprise round neck snap... except that rule will get out of hand fast. But if you have someone aware of what's happening, you're gonna need VASTLY superior strength to pull it off. The neck is a thick structure heavily muscled for the task of supporting and aiming your head and face.

All day every day your entire life.

It's why the head-butt is so potent. Thick forehead bone rammed forward by those powerful neck muscles... most likely into an opponents relatively delicate facial bone structures. Ow. (sorry getting off topic) anywho.. yeah I wouldn't even try running a grapple based neck snap by my DM unless we're talking a major STR advantage, and possibly even a size category difference.

I'd be more inclined to think a Stunned or Dazed target might be susceptible to a possible kill in this fashion for real world use... but I tend to think the rules we've become accustomed to using over the years are pretty solid and.. let's face it... it's no fun if there's no challenge.

Again.. it's your DM's call though.

[Hazard_Pay]

CdG does allow for a Fort Save though (assuming the target survives the initial damage), which his DM has probably houseruled away.

Yeah My DM is of the opinion that if you have someone helpless, start tallying XP. He has houseruled that fort save out of his CDG rules.
He doesn't even bother having us roll damage.. he just defines it as snapping their neck.

Which if you think about it... is probably just as well... if for some reason they would make the save they are still helpless and now even more damaged... i think he rules it that way to save time. More rounds of CDG rolling are pointless when the end result is assured.

[Prime32]

Ah sorry missed the Grapple bit. Looking back at Reaping Mauler , don't they get a kill based... err wait yeah nvm It's 3 rounds in a grapple for that power to have effect (Still pretty beastly when you consider the character using it is set up to make sure you don't get out of a grapple.)Not really. You lose your Reaping Mauler class features if you change size, and size bonuses to grapple checks are enormous (with the number of Large+, high-Str monsters, a Reaping Mauler will be unable to grapple most of the time). Plus you can only use the death effect on someone you've already rendered unconscious, and if they're unconscious you can just use a coup de grace... which is far stronger than the death effect.

Also, there is an lv4 spell which makes you immune to grappling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) - enemies have access to it before you have access to your Reaping Mauler abilities.

[Hazard_Pay]

Hmm hadn't considered that.
Looks like Reaping Mauler is obsolete then. Which is good to know.. was going to have a cohort from the leadership feat pick that PrC up down the road... scrapping that Idea.. will need to research a different route to have him take. Something melee based...

Back on topic, this whole thread is starting to make me wonder if the CDG is perhaps a tad overpowered? In terms of relative ease.. getting a foe helpless is not altogether too difficult in comparison to getting a 'Death Attack' by leveling a particular class?

I can hear a Level 1's inner dialogue now:

"Hmm.. I can devote months, maybe years of training towards learning an attack or spell that will kill someone (maybe)... or I can just wait until they fall asleep tonight and drop a big rock on their face."

Granted.. when your target has resources, money/power/etc... they start having these wonderful counters to my rock dropping escapades... like armed guards, or even plain ol' locked doors.

It's all very situational and very hard to plot.