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Phosphate
2011-07-16, 06:33 AM
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs14/i/2007/063/3/9/ORIGINAL__Deity_v_4_by_Kuroi_Tsuki.jpg
"The Upper Planes are everything you need to understand the world. The world is everything that matters, as whether you understand it or not, it still surprises you." - Heracles, after becoming a High Lord

Disclaimer: normally, this is an NPC class. PC can use it too, but at their own risk.

When a divine being decides to forever leave the immortal realms of his domain, for whatever reason, it can choose to become a High Lord. Those that do so are not considered outcast, nor exiled, but brave souls who face the true, cyclic and destructive nature of life by themselves. They are revered by simple mortals everywhere, as a physical god is generally much easier to believe in.

Adventuring: High Lords adventure generally for whichever reasons had them choose their powers and domains when they were gods. So, a god of war adventures to challenge worthy opponents, a god of knowledge adventures to research, and a god of glory adventures to gain fame.

Race: Any creature with a Divine Rank of 1 or more can turn itself into a High Lord.

Alignment: Same as before, although True Neutral gods rarely choose to become High Lords.

Starting age: irrelevant
Starting Gold: 1000 gp
Hit Die: d20


The High Lord
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Materialization, Excel|3|1||||||||

2nd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Sentence, Tongues|4|2||||||||

3rd|+4|+3|+3|+3|Following (1,1,1)|4|2|1|||||||

4th|+6/1|+4|+4|+4|Reflection|4|3|2|||||||

5th|+7/2|+5|+4|+5|Imposing Attitude, Senses|4|3|2|1||||||

6th|+9/4|+5|+5|+5|Following (2,2,1), Elemental Nature|4|3|3|2||||||

7th|+10/5|+6|+5|+6|Fundamental Energy|4|4|3|2|1|||||

8th|+12/7/2|+7|+6|+7|Funnel Bolt|4|inf|3|3|2|||||

9th|+13/8/3|+7|+6|+7|Following (3,3,2)|4|inf|inf|3|2|1||||

10th|+15/10/5|+8|+7|+8|Minor Alteration|4|inf|inf|3|3|2||||

11th|+16/11/6/1|+9|+7|+9|Maker|4|inf|inf|inf|3|2|1|||

12th|+18/13/8/3|+9|+8|+9|Following (4,4,2)|4|inf|inf|inf|3|3|2|||

13th|+19/14/9/4|+10|+8|+10|Constance|4|inf|inf|inf|4|3|2|1||

14th|+21/16/11/6/1|+11|+9|+11|Soul Grip|4|inf|inf|inf|4|3|3|2||

15th|+22/17/12/7/2|+11|+9|+11|Following (5,5,3)|4|inf|inf|inf|inf|4|3|2|1|

16th|+24/19/14/9/4|+12|+10|+12|Blight|4|inf|inf|inf|inf|4|3|3|2|

17th|+25/20/15/10/5|+13|+10|+13|Winds of Destiny|4|inf|inf|inf|inf|4|4|3|2|1

18th|+27/22/17/12/7/2|+13|+11|+13|Following (6,6,3)|4|inf|inf|inf|inf|inf|4|4|3|3|2

19th|+28/23/18/13/8/3|+14|+11|+14|Inevitable Fate|4|inf|inf|inf|inf|inf|4|4|3|3

20th|+30/25/20/15/10/5|+15|+12|+15|True Power|4|inf|inf|inf|inf|inf|4|4|4|4

[/table]

Class Skills: All of them

Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A High Lord is proficient with all weapons, including exotic ones, all armors, and all shields, including tower shields.

Spellcasting: A High Lord decides ahead of time whether a spell he is casting is considered arcane or divine. He can cast any spell he knows as either. Either way, he does not suffer from arcane spell failure.

The spells of a High Lord are cast spontaneously, from a list of spells known. A High Lord starts with all 0 level spells (cantrips) and 3 level 1 divine spells known and learns 5 new divine spells and 4 new arcane spells per level. These new spells can be learned even if the High Lord does not have high enough slots to cast them, but he must still have a Wisdom of 10+spell level to be able to learn them. A High Lord chooses his spells known from the Sor/Wiz spell list, the Druid spell list, the Ranger spell list, the Paladin spell list, and any Cleric domain.

The Save DC against a High Lord's spells is 10+spell level+Cha mod+Int mod. He gains additional spells per day by having a high Wisdom score.

The spellcaster level of a High Lord is treated as 20, no matter how many class levels he has, unless he would normally have over 20, then use that value instead.

Unlike a sorcerer, a High Lord may not swap or replace spells he knows.

Class Features

Materialization (Su): A High Lord is basically a god who separated his soul from his body. He loses all his divine ranks and outsider type, along with all outsider hit dice he has. Then, he acquires a new race of his choosing. This race must not have the outsider type, must be mortal, must be homanoid, must be small, medium, or large, and must have a Level Adjustment of 2 or less (Level Adjustment is treated as 0 no matter what it is). He gains herculean ages, meaning that all his age categories are multiplied by 5. He cannot learn class abilities that would turn him back into an outsider.

Also, the deity taking this class automatically gains 1 level in it for every Divine Rank it lost (excluding 0). If it had class levels, it doesn't lose it.

Excel (Ex): Possessing an inherent godly grace, a High Lord has a minimum base value of 15 in Charisma, Wisdom, and Intellect.

Sentence (Sp): A High Lord can punish mere mortals for their sins and curse them in various ways. A High Lord can Sentence as many creatures as his class level, if he already used all of them, he must wait for one Sentence to end in order to use another one (even if a day has passed). Sentencing is a free action that can be done only once per turn, requires you to see the target, has a verbal component, ignores spell resistance, has a maximum range of 100 feet, and allows an initial Will Save against a DC of 10+half class level+Int mod+Cha mod. If the target has the same alignment as the High Lord, the Cha mod is not added. Other limitations, such as how many times a certain sentence can be used, are on a case by case basis. You can't sentence the same being twice at the same time. You can't sentence something that has an Intelligence of 2 or less, but you CAN sentence beings that are immune to mind-affecting magic.

There are three types of Sentences: Wards, Penalties and Punishments. Wards have an infinite duration, end when the target does a certain action, and have an effect that activates right then. Penalties also activate when the target does a certain action, but they don't end until their whole duration passes, so they can be activated several times. Punishments instantly affect the target, although they may or may not have instant duration. As stated above, except for the initial Will Save, there is no way to save against sentences, nor dispel them, they ignore spell resistance, and they are not affected by antimagic fields.

Punishments are instantly noticed by the targets. Targets need to succeed on a DC 20 Autohypnosis check to detect that they are affected by a Penalty, and on a DC 20 Knowledge (Arcana) check to detect that they are affected by a Ward.

First Sphere Sentences
All these require a High Lord of Level 2 or more.

Name: Communication Strain
Type: Punishment
Duration: 24 hours
Uses: 1/day
Effect: For the target, speaking becomes a swift action. If he would use a spell that has a verbal component and takes a standard action to cast, it becomes a full round action instead.

Name: Arcane Forbiddance
Type: Penalty
Duration: 1 hour
Uses: 1/encounter
Effect: If the target uses an arcane spell, it is fatigued for 1 round.

Name: Revenge
Type: Ward
Duration: forever
Uses: 1/encounter
Effect: If the target deals damage to the caster of this sentence, he instantly takes the same amount of damage himself, lethal and untyped.

Second Sphere Sentences
All these require a High Lord level of 5 or more.

Name: Silence
Type: Punishment
Duration: 1 minute
Uses: at will
Effect: The target cannot speak. Not even telepathically. He cannot write, and he cannot use sign languages. Empathy still works.

Name: Blood Fear
Type: Penalty
Duration: the encounter
Uses: 1/day
Effect: If the target destroys a construct/living construct/undead, it is shaken for 2 rounds. If the target lethally damages a living being, it is shaken for 2 rounds. If the target kills a living being, it is panicked for 2 rounds. The source of fear is either the corpse of the slain living being or the caster of this sentence, whichever is closer.

Name: Material Focus
Type: Ward
Duration: forever
Uses: at will
Effect: If the target eats, it takes 2d10 untyped lethal damage and cannot heal unless it sleeps.

Third Sphere Sentences
All these require a High Lord level of 8 or more.

Name: Confinement
Type: Punishment
Duration: 1 hour
Uses: 1/hour
Effect: The target's Fast Healing and Regeneration are reduced by 5 (can't become negative). Also, he will ignore magical healing and Heal checks made for him will take a -5 circumstance penalty.

Name: Betrayal
Type: Penalty
Duration: 1 week
Uses: 1/day
Effect: If the target uses an offensive ability/attacks a foe of the exact same alignment, whether he knows this or not, he takes 1d10 damage and a -4 attack penalty to his next hit.

Name: Sloth
Type: Ward
Duration: forever
Uses: 1/day
Effect: If the target sleeps, it cannot prepare spells/regain power points/change maneuvers for 1 day.

Fourth Sphere Sentences
All these require a High Lord level of 11 or more.

Name: Wasted Life
Type: Punishment
Duration: instant
Uses: 1/day
Effect: Target takes damage equal with (his age - class hit dice)/2

Name: Profanity
Type: Penalty
Duration: 24 hours
Uses: at will
Effect: If the target uses a spell with a Evil descriptor, gains a profane bonus, or kills a Good-aligned being, it takes 5d6 damage.

Name: Needless Aggression
Type: Ward
Duration: forever
Uses: at will
Effect: If the target battles, and its opponents try to flee, but the target still attacks them, he is blinded for 2 hours.

Fifth Sphere Sentences
All these require a High Lord level of 14 or more

Name: Running Out
Type: Punishment
Duration: instant
Uses: 1/hour
Effect: The target ages 2 years. You may use this once per day and age the target by 5 years instead.

Name: Racial Guilt
Type: Penalty
Duration: 1 month
Uses: 1/day
Effect: If the target attacks or uses an offensive spell/ability against a creature of the same race, roll 1d6. If the result is 6, next turn he must attack himself, and deal lethal damage.

Name: Treachery
Type: Ward
Duration: forever
Uses: at will
Effect: If the target uses manipulation (this includes lying, intimidate attempts, Enchantments, mind-affecting non-offensive abilities, disguises, or bluffs, but excludes Diplomacy) he will faint and remain unconscious for 2 hours, with no chance to wake up.

Sixth Sphere Sentences
All these require a High Lord level of 17 or more.

Name: Immunodeficient
Type: Punishment
Duration: forever
Uses: 1/week
Effect: The target cannot fight off diseases (he cannot make Fortitude Checks against them) and ignores effects that would heal diseases (including the dispelling of magical diseases).

Name: Dimensional Rapture
Type: Penalty
Duration: 1 day
Uses: 1/day
Effect: If the target uses an effect that makes it change planes, or travel instantly on the same plane (as transitional planes are used), it loses half its current hit points, rounded down.

Name: Vengeance
Type: Ward
Duration: forever
Uses: 1/day
Effect: If the target kills the caster of this skill, it dies, and its body is disintegrated.

Seventh Sphere Sentences
All these require a High Lord level of 20 or more.

Name: Execution
Type: Punishment
Duration: Instant
Uses: 1/day
Effect: Kills the target. Can be used on anything with an int score, even intelligent constructs and creatures immune to death effects.

Name: Vow of Silence
Type: Penalty
Duration: Forever
Uses: 1/hour
Effect: If the target speaks, it dies. Can be used on anything with an int score, even intelligent constructs and creatures immune to death effects. This penalty sticks to the target even if it dies and is then resurrected (hence why it is a penalty and not a ward).


Tongues: As the succubus ability.

Following (Su, Su, Ex): A High Lord doesn't have quite the influence of an actual deity, but can still be served by worshipers. He can be the patron of 1 humanoid, and 1 more every 3 levels (1 at level 3, 2 at level 6, 6 at level 18). For this purpose, those individuals are treated as having a Cleric level equal to the High Lord's class level/3. They get just as many spells as a cleric of the appropriate level, can turn and rebuke undead, and otherwise act just like Clerics of that level, with one exception: those levels are not counted towards multiclassing, and are not added to effective character level (ECL). Also, if they would learn cleric levels when they level up, they don't stack with this. (for example, if someone has 0 trained levels in cleric and 3 from Following, his effective Cleric level is 3. If someone has 2 trained levels in cleric and 3 from Following, his effective Cleric level is 3. If someone has 4 trained levels in cleric and 3 from Following, his effective Cleric level is 4.). Also, he can grant spells to those followers from 1 domain of his choosing, and 1 more every 6 levels thereafter.

Reflection (Ex): A High Lord, due to the time he spent as an avatar with no body and using thoughts to interact with the world, still heavily relies on thought to get things done. He can add his Wis modifier twice to wis-based skill checks and his Int modifier to any other skill check.

Imposing Attitude (Ex): Through all his gestures and mimic, a High Lord can make others incredibly humble in his presence. He can make Intimidate checks as a standard action even out of combat, and if an Intimidate check succeeds, he is instantly released of any enchantments or fear effects caused by the target of the intimidation.

Senses (Ex): A High Lord's senses cannot be affected by means of magic. Also, he is treated as having Blindsense, Tremorsense and True Seeing at all times, and is not subjected to gaze attacks.

Elemental Nature (Ex): Coming down to the Material Realm, a High Lord gains a better understanding of the elements. At level 6 and every 6 levels thereafter, he can choose 1 element to be immune against. This immunity ignores effects that bypass or reduce it.

Fundamental Energy (Su): A High Lord has access to the very matter that is the core fabric of creation. Whenever he would deal damage using the effect of a spell, except physical damage you can treat the damage as untyped.

Funnel Bolt (Sp): The High Lord siphons energy from a target as a swift action, that can be a foe, himself or any living being with more than 4 HD within an area with a radius of 150 feet (no save). The target takes 4dx untyped damage, where x is his racial hit dice (if he doesn't have racial hit dice, use the hit dice of the class he has most level on). Then, the target is fatigued for 4 turns. Ignores Spell Resistance. At any later time, the High Lord can form a bolt of arcane energy out of this as a swift action, which must succeed on a ranged touch attack and deals untyped damage to a target equal to the damage dealt by the siphon initially, and incurs a negative level on your target. You can instead siphon from yourself and use the bolt of energy in the same round as a standard action.

Minor Alteration (Su): A High Lord re-develops reality-bending powers. In a sphere centered on him with a radius of 5 feet*class level, he can manipulate lighting and weather. Weather may vary between -58 degrees to 212 degrees (fahrenheit). Also, he may use Prestidigitation at will as an Extraordinary power, and if he does nothing for a whole round, he gains Fast Healing Class Level/2 for that round.

Maker: Still in sync with the primal energies of the world, a High Lord can use Alter Reality once per day, True Creation Class Level/2 times per day and Major Creation Class Level times per day. This does not use up any spell slots.

Constance: A High Lord gave up his immortality to truly join the worldly realms, but still maintains some ability to induce stability into things. Once per day, he can use Permanency as a 20th level spellcaster, without needing any somatic, verbal or XP components. Does not consume a spell slot. He cannot use it on himself or on effects affecting himself. Also, mortals in a 1 mile radius sphere around him passively age two times slower.

Soul Grip (Ex): The High Lord, unfamiliar with dying and unwilling to die, clings tightly to his worldly body. If he dies, no matter the state of his body, he can attempt a DC 20 Charisma check (d20+cha mod). If he succeeds the check, he comes back to life, fully healed and without losing any xp, but expending all his spell slots for the day.

Blight (Sp): A High Lord can engulf a huge region in a destructive magical blight, killing off 1/5 of all plant life within a sphere (dome) with a radius of 1 mile/class level, once per day, until there is no plant life left. This ability can be used once per day, and ends in one zone if used in another.

Winds of Destiny (Su/Sp): The High Lord gains control over the atmosphere. He receives a flying speed of 100 feet (perfect) and a Damage Reduction of 10/epic, earth and force. Additionally, he becomes immune to the damage and kickback of wind-based abilities (including sonic abilities but excluding mind-affecting sonic abilities). Additionally, once per turn, as a swift action, he can repel any target within 50 feet for a distance of 20 feet + 5 feet per size difference (or -5 if the High Lord is smaller). Deal 1d10 damage to the target for every 10 feet traveled, and force him into prone.

Inevitable Fate (Ex): All the weapons of a High Lord are treated as being Vorpal in nature, and as having double their normal critical threat. (20 becomes 19-20, 16-20 becomes 12-20).

True Power (Su): The High Lord regained all the power he had as a deity, without actually becoming one again. He can use Greater Teleport at will, he gains a Divine Rank of 0, and he is considered Incorporeal.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-16, 07:57 AM
I'd just like to mention that not even Deities grow they're BAB or Saves higher then 12 for saves and 20/15/10/5.
They just keep gaining modifiers to them, they're essentially just Epic characters... with semi-immortality and divine abilities.

Also it should be possible for a Deity to become mortal not by choice, and at a later date becomes a high lord with no memory. Essentially the same as when a Sorcerer develops Sorcerer levels later in life (Past level 1) In which case a note should/could be made in Materialization that the option for racial choosing is only to level 1 characters who take the High Lord willingly.

So far with whats shown... despite the saves and attack, I'd probably allow a player to use it in a gestalt game if they use it in place of having two classes.

Phosphate
2011-07-16, 08:37 AM
I know deities have normal BaB and saves, this is unique. But as for the Materialization thing, it is already in the class requirements that you must have divine ranks before taking the first level (and up to that very point). Or maybe I didn't exactly understand you.

As a side note, this class is intended to be way OVER Tier 1, would like people to take that into account when PEACHing.

Ashtagon
2011-07-16, 10:07 AM
As a side note, this class is intended to be way OVER Tier 1, would like people to take that into account when PEACHing.

Given that it is intended to be "tier 0", what exactly do you hope to gain from PEACHing? Obviously not comments about balance, unless on the lines of, "nope, a wizard 20 can still win a fight against him one time in four". Equally, it's not something I see many people intentionally using in their games -- a super-powerful monster, an actual stated deity, or a simple unstated "rocks fall" monster can fill the TPK role just as easily, and more simply too.

Honestly, I feel this is one of those situations where PEACH is essentially limited to spelling and grammar checking.

Phosphate
2011-07-16, 10:31 AM
Given that it is intended to be "tier 0", what exactly do you hope to gain from PEACHing? Obviously not comments about balance, unless on the lines of, "nope, a wizard 20 can still win a fight against him one time in four". Equally, it's not something I see many people intentionally using in their games -- a super-powerful monster, an actual stated deity, or a simple unstated "rocks fall" monster can fill the TPK role just as easily, and more simply too.

Honestly, I feel this is one of those situations where PEACH is essentially limited to spelling and grammar checking.

Not really. As you said yourself, one of the points is to make sure this stands above Tier 1. So if a lone Wizard of the same level is capable of beating a High Lord, I am obviously doing something wrong. I'm trying to make something that would be a fair fight to 4-5 Tier 2 characters if the same level. And it's still a WIP.

Also something I'm trying to accomplish here is giving a reasonable alternative to immortality and divine stuff to deities. I know a Rank 1 Deity would take this up without a second thought, but can I push it any further? Like, 5 or something?

Phosphate
2011-07-17, 10:33 AM
So yeah, made half of it so far...

Phosphate
2011-07-18, 06:58 AM
Ok, class is done. PEACH please.

Benly
2011-07-18, 07:34 AM
I know a Rank 1 Deity would take this up without a second thought, but can I push it any further? Like, 5 or something?

A rank 1 deity would not "take this without a second thought". The loss of salient divine abilities alone is a huge tradeoff compared to taking levels in a normal class, not to mention the other massive benefits of having a divine rank. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but you should be aware of it.

Phosphate
2011-07-18, 08:01 AM
A rank 1 deity would not "take this without a second thought". The loss of salient divine abilities alone is a huge tradeoff compared to taking levels in a normal class, not to mention the other massive benefits of having a divine rank. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but you should be aware of it.

Did you...actually read the class?

byaku rai
2011-07-18, 08:06 AM
Out of curiosity, why give it the Wizard spells/day? Why not Cleric or Sorcerer? :smallconfused: I mean, if you're already making it OP, a handful more spells/day won't make that much of a difference...

Realms of Chaos
2011-07-18, 09:08 AM
I'm sorry to say this but this class isn't "better" than a tier 1 tippy-verse wizard. The reason for this is that while this class does get a bunch of bells and whistles in addition to uber-spellcasting, nothing but the uberspellcasting really makes any difference in the hands of true optimizers... at all (no, not even the anti-mage sentences as it is so much easier to pump up ones saving throws than it is to increase the save DC and a good mage will have saving throws through the roof).

Both sides have infinite armies of simulacrums, endless wish loops, astral projections sending them forth from demiplanes created via genesis, effectively infinite funds, the ability to instantly destabilize the economy of the other's nation via fabricate/wall of iron/wall of salt/true creation, the capacity to blow up the world with true creation (anti-osmium) or locate city bombs, the ability to put any number of heroes/villains/world leaders under programmed amnesia, can create an even number of contingent spells, and so forth. In a battle of that tier (where everything revolves around super-duper rocket tag and ignoring initiative altogether), absolutely nothing that this class gets in particular really denotes it as being "better".

The only thing I can think of that is conceptually stronger than tier 1 is the alter reality divine salient ability. Unless you're using any spell you want at will, you can't beat tier 1 with any number of bells and/or whistles.

Dryad
2011-07-18, 09:34 AM
Ehm.. Just a question; please don't think this is meant as rude, but...
Why? What do you plan to gain by having this class? Why would you want it? What good will its existence bring to a campaign, and why does it need to be so powerful that even wizards should not stand a chance? You could simply opt for a character that always hits, and can cast any spell she desires spontaneously, if that is your goal, but even then, I cannot see what good that would do...

So yes; I'd really like to know why.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-18, 12:24 PM
can cast any spell she desires spontaneously

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3WOQNWn1rmS-S0Nz7hXqUhST77t7hJViOYROvrIPf2ePoLFadzw

hm.... Nah I got nothing. hm.... I'll try something later.

Phosphate
2011-07-18, 01:19 PM
Ehm.. Just a question; please don't think this is meant as rude, but...
Why? What do you plan to gain by having this class? Why would you want it? What good will its existence bring to a campaign, and why does it need to be so powerful that even wizards should not stand a chance? You could simply opt for a character that always hits, and can cast any spell she desires spontaneously, if that is your goal, but even then, I cannot see what good that would do...

So yes; I'd really like to know why.

Again, I'd like an alternate deity-kind of monster for encounters. One that walks the Earth, so there's an actual reason for bands of PC adventurers to go hunting him down.

@Realms: Stop thinking solely in terms of levels 15+.

Dryad
2011-07-18, 01:36 PM
That's a fair enough reason, and I have to say I like your reason. Reminds me a bit of an old Tarot song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWMPVjCgQPI

However, this is a LOT of work to make a class out of it while it seems to me to be more... Apt, maybe, to turn it into a template, instead.
Of course; a class does have the benefit of scaling. However, with BaB and saves scaling beyond the possibilities for players, the scaling, in effect, is nought, because with a 150% BaB, for instance, Armour Class is simply redundant, even on low levels.
Maybe the power should come from raw endurance in the form of hit points rather than giving them auto-hit capacities. After all; if you can't defend against it, an encounter with it is pretty much pointless.

Kudos for investing this much effort into it. ^_^

Phosphate
2011-07-18, 02:05 PM
Endurance? But it does have a d20 HD and self-resurrect from level 14...is there any way to give them even more endurance?

I know a 150% BaB is very rough on the players, but it doesn't completely make AC useless (the incorporality this class gains at level 20 does, however). I mean, for people that optimize, medium armor is by default you-will-always-miss, this class' BaB simply balances it down in this situations.

Dryad
2011-07-18, 02:30 PM
d20 HD is nice, I imagine, but not as durable as a clean modifier.
However, I didn't exactly mean 'more durable than it is now;' I meant: 'More durable than other monsters.' And a d20 HD should indeed fill that role.

Benly
2011-07-18, 03:59 PM
Did you...actually read the class?

Yes, I did, although since I did so pretty late I didn't have a lot to say in detail about its mechanics.

"Will take without a second thought" implies a lot that simply isn't true. This doesn't mean it's a bad class or that there's no other reason a deity might choose to take this, but giving up Alter Reality for a nice BAB is going to take a second and possibly third and fourth thought after all.

Given that it involves giving up most of your divine power forever, why do deities in your world take this class in the first place? I get that the idea is to give a format of deity that PCs can fight/hang out with, but in-character, why do the deities do it?

Tebryn
2011-07-18, 04:05 PM
The loss of worshipers also is a big hit. Why would any God give that up?

Phosphate
2011-07-18, 04:15 PM
The loss of worshipers also is a big hit. Why would any God give that up?

Maybe a deity does not want to draw power from worship. This is the alternative, and I am trying to make it just as good. Will add some additional stuff tomorrow. Maybe some High Lord-only feats.

Realms of Chaos
2011-07-18, 04:31 PM
@Realms: Stop thinking solely in terms of levels 15+.

The problem doesn't only exist there. While good saves and 15 (min) Wis certainly help, a low-level (let's say levels 1-4) high lord still has a significant chance of being stopped with traditional 1-hit-kill spells (sleep and color spray) before being coup de graced by the barbarian's greatsword (against which the high lord is quite likely to fail his fortitude save).

When battle is truly unpredictable at low levels, it's hard in general to make anything that can routinely provide challenge to an optimized party without it turning out to be a 1-hit kill or TPK. When battle is all-too-predictable at high levels, trying to outdo what others can seems a bit silly.

That said, this class does seem to perform its functions exceedingly well at levels 5-14, which is a huge feat in and of itself.

Benly
2011-07-18, 04:45 PM
Maybe a deity does not want to draw power from worship.

This sort of hints at the fundamental question that bothers me with this class.

Why does a deity become a High Lord? Characters do things because they want something. What do you foresee a character wanting such that abandoning almost all divine power forever for this class is a reasonable response to that desire?

As it stands, the only two that really make sense are "I want to die" and "I want to abandon the responsibilities of being a god", which are both valid motivations but extremely niche; the former especially doesn't make for much of an antagonist if that's what you're going for.


This is the alternative, and I am trying to make it just as good.

You're nowhere near close. Leaving aside that "most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#levels)", any deity who qualifies for this class can already spontaneously cast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#spontaneousCasting) the entire cleric and ranger spell list (and possibly others) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#grantSpells), has a minimum of twenty-seven at-will spell like abilities directly related to her interests and desires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#spellLikeAbilities), and a bunch of other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineAura) wacky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#automaticActions) benefits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#familiar). Oh, and at least one salient divine ability, which ranges from interesting oddities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#footsore) to better than this entire class put together (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality).

If they choose to give that up forever, in return they get slightly accelerated BAB and saves, spellcasting inferior to what they already had, the extremely limited Sentence abilities, and severely watered-down versions of various salient divine abilities.

It's going to take more than some feats to compensate for that, if "just as good" is what you want. Becoming a High Lord is going to feel like cutting off both arms and putting out both eyes. People need a better motivation to do that than "I felt like it", but as written no such motivation exists.

What comes to mind for me would be to remove the "your power is lost forever" note, and simply have the character regain her former divine status when she either reaches level 20 or dies and is not resurrected. That way, the High Lord is more akin to the classical idea of a deity incarnating itself into mortal form and it's much easier to come up with reasons deities might do it. (Perhaps their growth and experiences as mortals are reflected as added divine power when they return to their deific status - it's much easier to grow as a person when you can't just snap your fingers to do whatever you want.)

Phosphate
2011-07-19, 01:28 AM
I do think that wanting to join the cycle of life and death because you get sick of being capable of everything, and wanting to spend your life as an actual mortal are fine enough reasons to take this class. The simple get-powers-back-when-you-die-approach sounds like cheating, if you ask me.

Though I agree that I must make it better in order for it to compete with actual deities, even lowly demigods.

Changed some things, added some new things.

Dryad
2011-07-19, 05:01 AM
Actually, I would leave the standard deity rules at the door when using this class. There is little reason for a standard deity to want to fall, and then take levels in this class, sure. Standard deities are far more powerful than anything this class can achieve; sure. But... Why even use standard deities in your story? They're incredibly deus ex machina (pun fully intended), so even if they're part of the setting, actually using them in encounters should be a big no-no, if you ask me.
The Game Master decides what a deity is. Not a rulebook.

Benly
2011-07-19, 05:01 AM
I do think that wanting to join the cycle of life and death because you get sick of being capable of everything, and wanting to spend your life as an actual mortal are fine enough reasons to take this class. The simple get-powers-back-when-you-die-approach sounds like cheating, if you ask me.

I already mentioned this one with "I want to die". It's a motivation that can lead into the class, sure, but it's not exactly a terribly versatile motivation. Still, your class so whatever.

Phosphate
2011-07-19, 05:14 AM
As a note, in the settings that I play, deities are never above Divine Rank 5. They're not called demigods, but simply deities.

There's maybe a huge difference between those and core deities, which usually go over DR 15, but that's what I'm used to. So I have to ask, is this at least as good as a Divine Rank 1-5? If not, I will change stuff from it.

Benly
2011-07-19, 11:32 AM
There's maybe a huge difference between those and core deities, which usually go over DR 15, but that's what I'm used to. So I have to ask, is this at least as good as a Divine Rank 1-5? If not, I will change stuff from it.

All that stuff I listed in my earlier post is stuff that's automatic to any deity with DvR 1 or higher, including having every spell from every one of her domains as an at-will spell-like ability with no components. While the power of this ability obviously depends on what domains she has, given that a DvR 1 or higher deity is stated to have at least three domains, that ability alone is going to be more powerful than this class is over most if not all of its career with most possible arrangements of domains.

Phosphate
2011-07-19, 11:48 AM
Except...this class learns 5 domain spells per level. Plus 5 arcane spells per level. Might not be a lot to begin with, but that does amount to 204 spells known at level 20. They can only infinitely cast for level 5 down, but that is not that horrible.

Also, deities must waste a feat to get Alter Reality. This doesn't.

Imbasel
2011-07-19, 11:55 AM
I hardly think that deities think of getting Alter Reality as wasting a feat. Simply put any deity with DV 1 is going to have it and will have every spell available to them. You only have a set amount. Is it high yes it is. Deities however, will easily mop the floor on just about anything without similar HD as magic is something they will always have an edge on unless they are fighting another deity.

Zeta Kai
2011-07-19, 11:58 AM
Also, deities must waste a feat to get Alter Reality. This doesn't.

I would hardly say that spending a feat on Alter Reality is a "waste"...

Also, overpowered class is overpowered. I know that it's intended for NPCs, but a good DM doesn't need his NPCs to have crazy stats to do their jobs. I don't see the point in making an uber-class for gods to be uber. They already have a path to Uber-Town, & they can already pwn mere mortals along the way.

Benly
2011-07-19, 12:11 PM
Except...this class learns 5 domain spells per level. Plus 5 arcane spells per level. Might not be a lot to begin with, but that does amount to 204 spells known at level 20. They can only infinitely cast for level 5 down, but that is not that horrible.

Also, deities must waste a feat to get Alter Reality. This doesn't.

Deities don't spend a feat on Alter Reality, they pick it as a salient divine ability. Also, the Alter Reality your class gives isn't nearly as powerful as the SDA, since the SDA is at will. However, I deliberately left Alter Reality out of it on the basis that not every DvR 1 deity will have it as their first pick. Any DvR 1 deity with Alter Reality is going to be more powerful than this class at any level, and that's really about all there is to say about Alter Reality.

Regarding spellcasting, this class has a lot of spells known, yes - but still fewer than a deity with a normal spellcasting class, since a deity can spontaneously cast any spell she can grant, which is by default the entire cleric and ranger list, as well as the entire list of any divine class she has at least one level in. Which is... a lot more than 204 spells, even with "only" cleric and ranger. This is in addition to the at-will domain SLAs - three ninth-level spells at-will and componentless is a lot more powerful than having them as spells known. Take a look at how many domains (including a lot of ones you wouldn't expect) get Time Stop, Gate, Polymorph Any Object/Shapechange, or even lesser stuff like Prismatic Sphere or Forcecage. It's probably possible to pick out three domains that don't get things signficantly better than at-will fifth-level spells, but it's vanishingly unlikely for that to be the case with three domains picked as a roughly thematic cluster.

Analytica
2011-07-19, 03:06 PM
Since you've put a lot of work into this, it probably fits what you need better than the alternatives. I would, in that case, just drop the divine rules entirely and have deities be creatures that have levels in this class.

If I would do this... I would neither use a special class nor the divine rules. I would just use the epic rules. Devise an epic spell that grants spells to spellcasting followers, and have deities be anything capable of casting epic spells. That way, if you need one, just make an epic creature or character. If you want it incarnated in weaker form, devise a spell that creates a lower-level avatar, functioning like simulacrum maybe.