Warlock

[GrimJester]

So im starting a warlock and have never played a magic user and was wondering what feats would be good to use and can i find invocations anywhere other then complete arcane

[Kaje]

Invocations can be found in Complete Mage, Cityscape, Dragon Magic, Magic of Incarnum and Drow of the Underdark.

[gorfnab]

This may be of some use: Warlock Information Compilation Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0)

[Socratov]

So im starting a warlock and have never played a magic user and was wondering what feats would be good to use and can i find invocations anywhere other then complete arcane

About the feats, it all depends on what you will be doing. If you want to go around and debuff the hell out of everything, go for Ability focus (MM1?) on your Eldritch blast to increase the save Dc's. Then there is Empower SLA, Quicken SLA, Maximise SLA;all are 3/day and do their metamagic's couterparts (as in, the feats) for free, but 3/day. also a great invocation for Warlocks (if you want that extra versitality) is extra invocation, which allows you to take extra invocations at the second highest level invocations available. further it is up to what you want to do with your warlock. You want to go blaster mode? take feats that empower/maximise SLa. If you want versitality, go for Quicken SLa, It will allow you to moive, blast and move again/cast a non quickened invocation (not Eldritch blast). If you don't plan on overusing vitriolic blast, take spell penetration and greater spell penetration to overcome spell resistance. If you need to hit, the go the ranged +to hit feat tree, for example PBS, precise shot etc. Else, go for feats that enhance your effectiveness with skills/use skills for more purposes. Note that of the meta SLA feats you can only use 1 of them at a time (so no quickened, empowered and maximised invocation/eldritch blast, it is either/or, not and/or). I think it si best to know what role you will take in the party, and on that pick your invocations and your feats (also you will want to see if you can benefit from a high cha if you need +DC, else dump cha and go for dex and int).

[GrimJester]

So i'm thinking of going for a blasting warlock since eldritch blast seems sweet so i'd be looking for feats to improve that then like sla then right

[Soranar]

ways to increase eldritch blast damage

Iajutsu focus

Cha based skill from oriental adventures

only 2 ways to get access to it: dip a class that gives you the skill (samurai or factotum) and be a human with able learner or

dip and spend 2 points/level to skill it up

take the human paragon prestige class and add it to your skill list permanently


Feats

-abberation banemagic (Lords of Madness)
-mortalbane (I think it's in Libris mortis)
-wild talent, psionic shot, greater psionic shot combo (check the psionic feat section of the SRD for those)
-weapon like spell specialization (from complete arcane)
-Vow of Poverty (scaled by level, affects all your attacks so it works)
-maximise spell-like ability
-empower spell-like ability
-Martial study+ martial stance to gain assassin's stance , 2d6 sneak attack (level 10 required)

class features
-more spellcasting classes (PrCs that progress arcane spellcasting also pump your eldritch blast damage as if you took a level in warlock)
-sneak attack
-Factotum's level 1 ability (spend an inspiration point to add your INT bonus to damage)
-factotum's level 3 ability (spend an inspiration point to add a sneak attack dice to your damage)

Another way to progress is to gain more BAB and use the eldritch glaive to deliver more attacks per round and/or make an AoO build

[Divide by Zero]

Also, take a look at the prestige class Chameleon from Races of Destiny. At second level (no need to take more, since you probably don't want to put off the rest of your warlock levels too much), it gives you a bonus feat that you can change every day. Since that feat can be Extra Invocation, you can get a different invocation every day! It also works well for item crafting if you're into that sort of thing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So i'm thinking of going for a blasting warlock since eldritch blast seems sweet so i'd be looking for feats to improve that then like sla then right

Actually, Iajitsu Focus doesn't work, because you never 'unsheathe' your eldritch blast. And since it isn't a weapon, Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot won't apply. Neither will VoP.

If you want to be the blastiest blaster that ever blasted, then allow me to introduce you to Hellfire Warlock. +2d6 damage/level at the cost of a point of Con damage. Now let me introduce you to my other good buddy, the Binder. A one-level dip nets you access to Naberious, the Grinning Hound. Among other things, when you bind him, you heal stat damage at a rate of 1/round. So take your point of Con damage, then watch as it regenerates by the end of the turn!.

And the third part of the trio here is Legacy Champion. It's a rather odd-duck prestige class, but the important thing it does is gives you 8/10 Class Features progression, as though you had gained another level in the class. So even though Hellfire Warlock is only a 3 level PrC, Legacy Champion gets to stack another 8 levels on top of that, for a total of 11 effective levels in HFW, for a total of +22d6 damage.

Oh, did I mention that HFW is a full spellcasting progression class? So in addition to boosting your damage significantly, it ALSO boosts your regularly scheduled blasting already in progress, and you still get to pick up new and interesting Invocations!

The traditional tactic is Warlock6/Hellfire Warlock3/Legacy Champion10/x1.

For other options, you've got a couple of choices:

1) Take a one-level dip in Mindbender. It'll require that you pick up the Lesser Invocation: Charm Person, which really puts a cramp on your Lesser Invocations Known, since one is taken up with a worthless Hellrime (or Brimstone) Blast invocation. That leaves you with one invocation left, and several options to choose from.

2) Sacrifice a level of Legacy Champion for a Chameleon2 dip. The floating feat is truly phenomonal for a Warlock. Basically, it's a floating invocation that can be changed daily. Now THAT is impressive.

Even more so, if you want to sacrifice some blasting, you can go Warlock12/HFW3/Binder1/Chameleon2/x2 turns you into a Magic-Mart that can produce around 90% of all magic items around. Your floating feat becomes the item creation feat in question, you use your class ability from Warlock to be able to duplicate the spells, and you're all set to go! Then, when you get out into the field, it turns back into a bonus invocation!

Item-wise, there's a couple you may want:

1) Chasuble of Fell Power, Greater. +2d6 to Eldritch Blast damage (MiC). Takes up the neck slot, but worth it.

2) Warlock's Rod. Burn charges to increase EB damage. Not very economical on the charges, compared to most rods, but handy in a pinch.

[Soranar]

Actually, Iajitsu Focus doesn't work, because you never 'unsheathe' your eldritch blast. And since it isn't a weapon, Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot won't apply. Neither will VoP.

Actually it does, all comes from the weaponlike spell quality.

Iajutsu focus works because you can unsheathe any weapon to trigger it (and unsheathing a weapon is a move action while the blast is a standard action so you can do both in 1 turn). If you read the text carefully, nothing says you only get the bonus using the weapon you unsheathed. So you can unsheathe a dagger then blast someone and get the bonus on the blast.

Psionic shot works for the same reason point blank shot works with it too: it's a weaponlike spell. And , again, if you read the actual text of the feat it just mentions a ranged attack , which the eldritch blast is.

Finally, just like with knowledge devotion, Vow of poverty says you get +x (depending on your level) to your attacks and damage with any attack you make.


It's a rather odd-duck prestige class, but the important thing it does is gives you 8/10 Class Features progression, as though you had gained another level in the class.

I don't think that works. You can only progress to Prestige class to it's end. Meaning you can never get more than 3 levels of hellfire warlock. I guess you could try to get a DM to agree to it but that's doubtful.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually it does, all comes from the weaponlike spell quality.

Iajutsu focus works because you can unsheathe any weapon to trigger it (and unsheathing a weapon is a move action while the blast is a standard action so you can do both in 1 turn). If you read the text carefully, nothing says you only get the bonus using the weapon you unsheathed. So you can unsheathe a dagger then blast someone and get the bonus on the blast. Wrong. First off, Eldritch Blast IS NOT A WEAPON, and the Iajutsu Focus bonus damage only applies to the weapon you unsheath. Thus, you don't get it.


I don't think that works. You can only progress to Prestige class to it's end. Meaning you can never get more than 3 levels of hellfire warlock. I guess you could try to get a DM to agree to it but that's doubtful.

Actually, yes you can, and yes it does. Sure, it's a bit cheesy. It's no different than Uncanny Trickster, although a full 10 level PrC rather than another 3 level one.

[Soranar]

Wrong. First off, Eldritch Blast IS NOT A WEAPON, and the Iajutsu Focus bonus damage only applies to the weapon you unsheath. Thus, you don't get it.

Again, read the actual text.

Check: If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately
after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage,
based on the result of an Iaijutsu Focus check.

It does not say anywhere that you have to attack with the weapon you unsheated.

[Socratov]

snip



I don't think that works. You can only progress to Prestige class to it's end. Meaning you can never get more than 3 levels of hellfire warlock. I guess you could try to get a DM to agree to it but that's doubtful.
indeed it doesn't, it would work for the warlock itself though. it allows you to gain class features as if you leveld, but fortunately, Uncanny trickster will work due to it giving you leveldependant classfeatures (which hellfire blast is, it is described in the classfeatures as 2d6 hellfire damage per hellfire warlock level)

[Necroticplague]

Having a bloodline can also help, due to this line of text:




Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

So you would gain an additional 6d6 of hellfire warlock, and one or two more more points of normal eldritch blast if you have a major bloodline.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

indeed it doesn't, it would work for the warlock itself though. it allows you to gain class features as if you leveld, but fortunately, Uncanny trickster will work due to it giving you leveldependant classfeatures (which hellfire blast is, it is described in the classfeatures as 2d6 hellfire damage per hellfire warlock level)

Perhaps you are unaware that Legacy Champion has the exact same wording as Uncanny Trickster? So yes, it *WILL* work.

[Psyren]

Again, read the actual text.

Check: If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately
after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage,
based on the result of an Iaijutsu Focus check.

It does not say anywhere that you have to attack with the weapon you unsheated.

That is quite the interesting loophole. Hell, you could do a dip of Soulknife + Quick Draw to draw your "hidden weapon" as a free action too, drop it as another free action, then full-attack with your Eldritch Glaive.

[Feriority]

That is quite the interesting loophole. Hell, you could do a dip of Soulknife + Quick Draw to draw your "hidden weapon" as a free action too, drop it as another free action, then full-attack with your Eldritch Glaive.

Or use a gnomish quickrazor, which can be drawn as a free action and sheathed as a free action without needing a feat or an extra class. Draw in your off-hand, blast, sheath.

[Psyren]

Or use a gnomish quickrazor, which can be drawn as a free action and sheathed as a free action without needing a feat or an extra class. Draw in your off-hand, blast, sheath.

Yes yes, that's the standard way of triggering IF - I was just musing about what to do if that weapon isn't allowed.

A Soulknife dip would also give you Wild/Hidden Talent, letting you add Psionic Shot to your blast on top of IF. Of course, you could just be a psionic race and go with the quickrazor... always wanted to be a Xeph Warlock :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

On higher levels, you might consider Fly-by attack. It allows a standard action, not an attack like spring attack. Since any warlock should be flying 24/7 anyway, it's often worth it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

On higher levels, you might consider Fly-by attack. It allows a standard action, not an attack like spring attack. Since any warlock should be flying 24/7 anyway, it's often worth it.

Only if you aren't Glaiving, which requires a full-round action.

[Socratov]

Having a bloodline can also help, due to this line of text:



So you would gain an additional 6d6 of hellfire warlock, and one or two more more points of normal eldritch blast if you have a major bloodline.

however, you can get into hellfire warlock at lvl 9 (you need 12 ranks in knowledge the planes) so you would lose a lot of exp trying to pry in some extra bloodline (since you can only continue class features you have allready got using bloodlines)

also: @shneekythelost: damn, do I feel lawyered now :smallsigh:, then I suppose it would work... even better, it continues invocation progression too :) (by account of hellfire warlock continuing warlock invocation progression...)

[Necroticplague]

however, you can get into hellfire warlock at lvl 9 (you need 12 ranks in knowledge the planes) so you would lose a lot of exp trying to pry in some extra bloodline (since you can only continue class features you have allready got using bloodlines).

Read the bloodline description closer:



Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

Bolded for emphasis

Take your first two levels of bloodline while leveling up warlock, take the third after you go hellfire. Cheesy? Definately. RAW? Yes.

[Groverfield]

Two good first level feats: Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot. Later on the two end up being rather worthless, but early on it's a wonderful thing not to make ranged attacks at -4 (and with vindictive DMs that give you a chance to hit your allies in melee on a miss)

[GrimJester]

My warlock is vampire bloodline and i found these gauntlets of eldritch energy which change my eldritch blast into sonic energy feat wise im still undecided unsure what to use im trying to have this warlock never use a weapon though he will have one for the just in case the dm throws something at me that is extremely high spell resistant and sonic resistant

[Groverfield]

And resists Acid, the invocation that makes eldritch into acid damage bypasses SR too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My warlock is vampire bloodline and i found these gauntlets of eldritch energy which change my eldritch blast into sonic energy feat wise im still undecided unsure what to use im trying to have this warlock never use a weapon though he will have one for the just in case the dm throws something at me that is extremely high spell resistant and sonic resistant

Why sonic? The basic Eldritch Blast is untyped damage. NOTHING resists that. For things with high SR, there's Vitriolic Blast. I suppose you could use those gauntlets on Vitriolic Blast if the thing is also immune or resistant to acid, but, to my knowledge, nothing has both high SR and immunity to sonic (and resistance is not going to cut it against the 30d6 you are dealing per shot).

[Socratov]

also, may I add that with hellfire blasts you will deal hellfire damage, which is unresistable (if it exists, hellfire burns it), so een if the enemy has high SR and immunity to acid, you will not lose the hellfire dmg...

[Hawk7915]

For some good, generic feats for a low-level Warlock:

- Improved Familiar (C. Arc) is a decent option, granting you a familiar as a wizard. Familiars have all sorts of exciting options to them, and are if nothing else excellent scouts.

- Point-blank Shot -> Precise Shot: Ranged Touch Attacks are still ranged attacks, and subject to the -4 from firing into melee. If your Dex is high or your group is melee-light, it won't matter, but otherwise these feats are worth considering. Note that you DO get a +1 to attack and damage on blast with PBS, but that it's worthless to take any other ranged combat feats (EB is not a weapon, so you cannot Rapid Shot or Manyshot it)

- Spell Penetration: Ask the Warlock in my group how utterly depressing it is to be a 6th level Warlock in a campaign riddled with level 3-9 Drow :smalltongue:. Eventually Vitriolic Blast obsoletes these, and it sounds like your gauntlets might too? But it's worth considering.

- Extra Invocation: Always a good decision; MORE POWER.

- Maximize SLA, Quicken SLA, Ability Focus, Sudden Still, Sudden Silence: Varying degrees of goodness here, but all great ways to power up the Blast or other Invocations.

EDIT: Several of these have been mentioned, just thought I'd highlight them once more since the OP said he hasn't chosen feats yet :smallsmile:

[dextercorvia]

Good luck with Improved Familiar. You don't have an Arcane Spellcaster level to determine which critters you can pick.

[Psyren]

Good luck with Improved Familiar. You don't have an Arcane Spellcaster level to determine which critters you can pick.

Warlocks explicitly have an arcane caster level equal to their class level. (CArc pg. 7)

[dextercorvia]

Warlocks explicitly have an arcane caster level equal to their class level. (CArc pg. 7)

Which is very nice for some things, but Arcane Spellcaster level is not the same thing. Improved Familiar requires them to have levels in an Arcane Spellcasting class.

[Hawk7915]

Which is very nice for some things, but Arcane Spellcaster level is not the same thing. Improved Familiar requires them to have levels in an Arcane Spellcasting class.


A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns to cast spells. However, prestige classes with caster level requirements, such as the acolyte of the skin, are well suited to the warlock. A warlock’s caster level for his invocations fulfills this requirement


In the context of a feat or a prestige class requirement, a caster level prerequisite (such as “caster level 5th”) measures the character’s ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster levelor their class level to determine qualification. For example, Craft Wondrous Item has a requirement of caster level 3rd, so both a 3rd-level warlock and anixie (caster level 4th for its charm person spell-like ability) meet the requirement.

You gain a familiar. Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, arcane caster level 3rd.

Everything I can see says that both Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar are fair game for a Warlock. Or am I missing something? If the feat said "Ability to cast 2nd level spells", Warlocks would be hosed, but since it says Caster Level they should be fine. If there's some RAW thing I'm missing (possible), I'd like to know (just recommended Obtain Familiar for the Warlock in my campaign), but considering all the text I quoted Obtain Familiar clearly is intended to work with Warlock, RAW or not.

[Psyren]

Everything I can see says that both Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar are fair game for a Warlock. Or am I missing something? If the feat said "Ability to cast 2nd level spells", Warlocks would be hosed, but since it says Caster Level they should be fine. If there's some RAW thing I'm missing (possible), I'd like to know (just recommended Obtain Familiar for the Warlock in my campaign), but considering all the text I quoted Obtain Familiar clearly is intended to work with Warlock, RAW or not.

I'll save you some time - He's trying to draw an arbitrary line between "arcane caster level" and "arcane spellcaster level."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

also, may I add that with hellfire blasts you will deal hellfire damage, which is unresistable (if it exists, hellfire burns it), so een if the enemy has high SR and immunity to acid, you will not lose the hellfire dmg...

However, Hellfire Blast does not do that, mechanically. What it does is add a whole handfull of d6's. It does not alter the flavor at all, which is a good thing, because it allows you to add in Vitriolic Blast to bypass SR by changing all the d6's into Acid damage. Otherwise, any high-SR critter would laugh at you.

[dextercorvia]

I'll save you some time - He's trying to draw an arbitrary line between "arcane caster level" and "arcane spellcaster level."

It isn't at all arbitrary. Spellcaster is a group name for Wizards, Clerics, Socerers, etc. -- classes that cast spells.

Arcane Spellcaster level is your level in a class that grants arcane spellcasting, combined with any levels that advance that casting (from Prestige Classes, eg.).

Caster level is typically equal to that number, except that it is modified by other feats and abilities independent of ASL, and that Warlocks are given a Caster level for their SLA's which is not also an arcane spellcasting level (since they don't actually cast spells).

Not making this distinction is what allows people to think that Practiced Spellcaster grants 4 levels of casting, instead of just a bonus to CL.

Obtain Familiar allows you to qualify for it based on CL, but your Familiar will be stunted, since the text of the feat has you use ASL to determine familiar abilities. Likewise, you can take Improved Familiar, but all of the new familiars you would want to select require an ASL, which a Warlock won't have.

I believe you put more stock in the FAQ than I do, but in this case I agree with it:


Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires “Spellcaster level 5th”?
No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) The same applies for characters whose caster level is less than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is
only 2nd.

[Divide by Zero]

This was already quoted, but

For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster levelor their class level to determine qualification.
I really can't see how that is at all ambiguous. Warlocks qualify.

[dextercorvia]

This was already quoted, but

I really can't see how that is at all ambiguous. Warlocks qualify.

In your game, is caster level = to arcane spellcaster level?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In your game, is caster level = to arcane spellcaster level?

Page 18 of Complete Arcane. They benefit from gains in 'Arcane Spellcaster Level'. It would be kind of hard to do if they weren't, now wouldn't it? :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

Page 18 of Complete Arcane. They benefit from gains in 'Arcane Spellcaster Level'. It would be kind of hard to do if they weren't, now wouldn't it? :smallwink:

The "benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement benefit." This is just a retrofit. They don't gain the usual benefits.

Furthermore:

"A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements"

Why not, if they have a spellcasting level?

[Divide by Zero]

Furthermore:

"A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements"

Why not, if they have a spellcasting level?

Because spellcasting level refers to being able to cast a certain level of spells. Requirements like that say something like "able to cast spells of level X."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The "benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement benefit." This is just a retrofit. They don't gain the usual benefits.

Furthermore:

"A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements"

Why not, if they have a spellcasting level?

Because they do not cast x level spells. However, they are an arcane spellcasting class, because they qualify for PrC's with a requirement of Arcane Spellcaster Level. Like Acolyte of Skin.

Actually, Enlightened Fist isn't a bad idea for a monk/warlock, if you absolutely have to do it that way.

Most of the abilities key off of blowing Stunning Fist uses, and Eldritch Blast is a Ray spell-like ability (for all intents and purposes, a ray-effect spell), which means it works with Hold Ray, and using Warlock means you've *ALWAYS* got a ray handy for it, whenever you want to use it. Basically, that, plus Arcane Fist is what Hideous Blow should have been. The only one a Warlock can't use is Arcane Rejuvination, because he doesn't have spell slots to burn.

[dextercorvia]

Because they do not cast x level spells. However, they are an arcane spellcasting class, because they qualify for PrC's with a requirement of Arcane Spellcaster Level. Like Acolyte of Skin.

Actually, they qualify for PrC's with a Caster Level. Like Acolyte of the Skin. That was in the stuff that was quoted earlier. They don't qualify for PrC's with a requirement of Arcane Spellcaster Level, because they don't cast arcane spells.

[Socratov]

However, Hellfire Blast does not do that, mechanically. What it does is add a whole handfull of d6's. It does not alter the flavor at all, which is a good thing, because it allows you to add in Vitriolic Blast to bypass SR by changing all the d6's into Acid damage. Otherwise, any high-SR critter would laugh at you.

wrong...


Hellfire Blast (sp):snip...This damage is not fire damage. Hellfire burns hotter than any normal fire, as described in the sidebar on page 119.

I guess we all know what hellfire is (whahahaha! BURN B******!)

the way I read it is that the dice you get from the hellfire warlock prestige class are hellfire damage dice, and the rest of the eldritch blast are either untyped or their respective eldritch essence's elements.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

wrong...



I guess we all know what hellfire is (whahahaha! BURN B******!)

the way I read it is that the dice you get from the hellfire warlock prestige class are hellfire damage dice, and the rest of the eldritch blast are either untyped or their respective eldritch essence's elements.

Read the prestige class, not the entry for Hellfire. The only thing the prestige class does is increase the d6's. It does not change the type to Hellfire, it does not bypass SR (although it is not subject to fire immunity/resistance). The fluff is 'it's hellfire'. The mechanics are 'add 2d6/level'.

[Socratov]

Read the prestige class, not the entry for Hellfire. The only thing the prestige class does is increase the d6's. It does not change the type to Hellfire, it does not bypass SR (although it is not subject to fire immunity/resistance). The fluff is 'it's hellfire'. The mechanics are 'add 2d6/level'.

I quoted the section on hellfire blast (which happens to be the discussed class feature of the prestigeclass)...

[thompur]

The way I read it, a Hellfire Blast is an Eldritch Essence. True, it isn't identified as such in the description, and one could reasonably conclude that it isn't, but the wording otherwise is extremely similar to an essence description.
e.g.
HELLRIME BLAST
This eldritch essence invocation allows you to change your eldritch blast into a hellrime blast. A hellrime blast deals cold damage...yadayadayada.

HELLFIRE BLAST
Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast. A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per caster level. If your blast hits multiple targets, each target takes the extra damage.

But now that I type this out, I definitely see Shneeky's point. It is not unreasonable to infer from the wording that only the extra damage comes from hellfire.
But then, if combined with Vitriolic Blast, would you need to break through SR for the hellfire damage? I'm not sure you can have it both ways. I think if I were DMing, I would rule that hellfire is its own essence, and couldn't be combined with other essences. But, as I said, I can see the other point.:smallconfused:

[thompur]

Read the prestige class, not the entry for Hellfire. The only thing the prestige class does is increase the d6's. It does not change the type to Hellfire, it does not bypass SR (although it is not subject to fire immunity/resistance). The fluff is 'it's hellfire'. The mechanics are 'add 2d6/level'.

I would respectfully disagree on this point. It changes to a hellfire blast, benefits include not subject to fire immunity/resistance, and deals full damage to objects. So it is hellfire. The entry for hellfire is part of the prestige class, as you are specifically refered to it under the Hellfire blast description.

[GrimJester]

For a warlock what would be more important Wisdom, Intelligence, or Strength im trying to put my low 3 rolls into the spots

[Divide by Zero]

For a warlock what would be more important Wisdom, Intelligence, or Strength im trying to put my low 3 rolls into the spots

Unless you're doing a melee build, Int. Str is useless outside of Eldritch Glaive/Claws, and you already have a good Will save, but you can never have too many skill points.

[Necroticplague]

Well, warlocks are typically viewed a a class that doesn't really require any stats to function. In my opinion, order stats should be dex/cha(depending on whether you use invocations that offer saves), other stat, con,int, wis,str.

[Socratov]

you will make touch attacks, so unless you are up against some douche with astronomically dex, you will hit.

I'd say that you have 2 specs for your ability scores.

you will use your invocations with saves and need to get those saves as high as possible: Cha->dex->int->con->str->wis (exchange int and con when you dip hellfire warlock)

you are blasting your life away and surely dip into hellfire warlock:
Con->dex->int-> and teh rest to flavor (str and wis are dumpstats, and cha is great if you want to be the partyface).

[hamishspence]

In your game, is caster level = to arcane spellcaster level?

Not everything with "caster level" is an arcane caster. Sometimes its a divine caster.

Thus- some PRCs might only be open to "arcane casters"- but this can still include warlocks.

[dextercorvia]

Not everything with "caster level" is an arcane caster. Sometimes its a divine caster.

Thus- some PRCs might only be open to "arcane casters"- but this can still include warlocks.

I misspoke. I meant to say: In your game is caster level = spellcaster level?

[FMArthur]

If you're using Hellfire Warlock make sure to get an odd Con score or you will lose hit points using it.

[darksolitaire]

If you're using Hellfire Warlock make sure heal the con damage with wand or vestige or you will lose hit points using it.

Edit: but then again...it would be manly to play with Hellfire Warlock with default con and no way to heal the damage. Real on the Edge kind of guy.

[Necroticplague]

Or, look into dipping a level or a couple feats to get a strongheart vest to completely negate the damage instead of healing it after the facts.

[Diarmuid]

These is some debate about whether being immune to the damage makes you unable to utilize the ability.

[dextercorvia]

These is some debate about whether being immune to the damage makes you unable to utilize the ability.

Nitpick: Immunity to the ability damage makes you unable to use Hellfire. The debate is over whether reduction to zero is the same as immunity.

[MeeposFire]

Or, look into dipping a level or a couple feats to get a strongheart vest to completely negate the damage instead of healing it after the facts.

You just had to open that can of worms didn't you?:smalleek:

Best that this conversation never gets started since it is an arguement with no answer other than "ask the DM".

[Socratov]

You just had to open that can of worms didn't you?:smalleek:

Best that this conversation never gets started since it is an arguement with no answer other than "ask the DM".
and apart from that, in the description it says you need to sacrifice life force (by sacrificing con) to utilize it. so reduction to 0 = not giving up life force != hellfire

[Necroticplague]

and apart from that, in the description it says you need to sacrifice life force (by sacrificing con) to utilize it. so reduction to 0 = not giving up life force != hellfire

A:That's fluff, and is irrelevant to the argument at hand. B: If you really need to make sense of of it, think of it as giving up the life force from the vest, which is not you.

[Socratov]

A:That's fluff, and is irrelevant to the argument at hand. B: If you really need to make sense of of it, think of it as giving up the life force from the vest, which is not you.

A: true, but in this case crunch and fluff go hand in hand like teenagers on hormones.


Each time you use this ability, you take 1 Constitution damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

(emphasis mine)

ok, it si packaged as fluff, but it actually tells you what happens. You give up your essence to the devils, and in return you get some neat hellfire. If you don't give them your essence, you won't get hellfire. If you sacrificed the vest's essence, the vest woudl get it. Thoug it's up to the diabolical mind of te DM to rule if hte vest suffices, or not.

[Psyren]

Best that this conversation never gets started since it is an arguement with no answer other than "ask the DM".

Quoting for emphasis.

[Feriority]

If you sacrificed the vest's essence, the vest woudl get it.

"I hit that guy with an Eldritch Blast, and my vest shoots off some hellfire to go with it!"

"... your vest shoots hellfire?"

"Yeah, I used its con, so it gets the hellfire."

I think if you want to argue from fluff, there's good arguments to be made that sacrificing someone else's health to fuel your hellish magic is just as thematic, though using a vest instead of another person is stretching it. The fluff/mechanic tie in you're talking about only says that using immunity to make there be NO sacrifice prevents you from using hellfire, not that using some other source for the sacrifice isn't possible.

There's just as good an argument that drawing power from hellish pacts requires a strong personal sacrifice, and using a proxy isn't good enough.

This is why arguing from fluff doesn't really work, and the debate has to stick to the mechanical aspect.

[MeeposFire]

Quoting for emphasis.

And yet seemingly no matter how hard you try once the vest and hellfire are mentioned in the same thread everything goes to heck:smallsigh:.

[Divide by Zero]

Regardless, a binder dip solves the whole issue, since then you're healing the damage after taking it rather than reducing it.

[Socratov]

"I hit that guy with an Eldritch Blast, and my vest shoots off some hellfire to go with it!"

"... your vest shoots hellfire?"

"Yeah, I used its con, so it gets the hellfire."

snip


I would totally allow that as a DM, although I would make you roll an UMD check :smallbiggrin:

seriousy though, I personally favor the binder route.

[FMArthur]

I favor just taking the con damage and using a wand of lesser restoration. Take Quicken Spell and buy Metamagic Wandgrips to quicken it in combat, otherwise use it out of combat without the Wandgrip. The wands are pretty cheap.

[dextercorvia]

I favor just taking the con damage and using a wand of lesser restoration. Take Quicken Spell and buy Metamagic Wandgrips to quicken it in combat, otherwise use it out of combat without the Wandgrip. The wands are pretty cheap.

You can't quicken a spell that takes longer than a standard action to cast.

[Psyren]

You can't quicken a spell that takes longer than a standard action to cast.

Actually this is false - you can quicken spells (and powers) that take up to a full-round action. Regardless of whether it's a move, standard or a full-round action, it will still go down to a swift.

Lesser Restoration still can't be quickened of course (it takes even longer than that.)

[dextercorvia]

Actually this is false - you can quicken spells (and powers) that take up to a full-round action. Regardless of whether it's a standard or a full-round action, it will still go down to a swift.

I was going to ask you for a source, but then I looked it up. What the heck were they thinking? The Special line seems to be referring back to it, and everything.

Either way, no quickened lesser restoration.

[FMArthur]

Oh wow, how did I miss that massive casting time! I guess I've been cheating with a couple of the NPCs I used. Good thing they died in locations that prevented the looting of their items by players, because those wands would retroactively have to contain a homebrewed spell to avoid screwing the players.

[Socratov]

for that matter, would it be possible to create a vest that would cure con loss as soon as taken (much like the binder dip) and how much would it cost?

sort of like a wearable restoration trap, or a spell trigger item?

[Psyren]

I was going to ask you for a source, but then I looked it up. What the heck were they thinking? The Special line seems to be referring back to it, and everything.

Either way, no quickened lesser restoration.

There's still a way to quicken it - Rapid Spell takes it down to a Full Round, and Quicken Spell takes it from there to a Swift.

Not sure how a Warlock would get those, but an Artificer could.

[dextercorvia]

There's still a way to quicken it - Rapid Spell takes it down to a Full Round, and Quicken Spell takes it from there to a Swift.

Not sure how a Warlock would get those, but an Artificer could.

I always read Rapid Spell as taking it to 1 round, rather than a full round action, but I can see how it could be read that way. It's not exactly phrased with a deep understanding of the action types, either.

[Dream_Merchant]

Do you guys actually not realise that the OP asked for advice on playing a warlock because he doesn't have any experience playing a magic user?

Do you guys actually not realise that the OP more or less stated that the DM is not familiar with most of the splat books out there, so he probably doesn't have high system mastery?

Do you guys actually not realise that most of the "advice" you are providing the OP has a good chance of breaking the game he is currently in and creating a lot of frustration and bad experience?

Do you guys actually not realise that saying that: "Oh I am just giving him the best that is out there and let him pick and choose what he wants" is not a valid argument since the OP doesn't know what other, less cheesy, options are viable to him (which is what he was probably after for in the first place)?

Am I the only one to actually realise that there is something terribly wrong here with what most of you are doing or am I simply deluded?

I quit these forums. Either this place is insane or I am. In any case we are not compatible.

[Necroticplague]

Do you guys actually not realise that the OP asked for advice on playing a warlock because he doesn't have any experience playing a magic user?

Do you guys actually not realise that the OP more or less stated that the DM is not familiar with most of the splat books out there, so he probably doesn't have high system mastery?

Do you guys actually not realise that most of the "advice" you are providing the OP has a good chance of breaking the game he is currently in and creating a lot of frustration and bad experience?

Do you guys actually not realise that saying that: "Oh I am just giving him the best that is out there and let him pick and choose what he wants" is not a valid argument since the OP doesn't know what other, less cheesy, options are viable to him (which is what he was probably after for in the first place)?

Am I the only one to actually realise that there is something terribly wrong here with what most of you are doing or am I simply deluded?

I quit these forums. Either this place is insane or I am. In any case we are not compatible.

Except so far, our conversation has been mostly around ways to get a whole lot of damage, and to mitigate the downside of doing all that damage, hardly campaign breaking.

[Socratov]

Do you guys actually not realise that the OP asked for advice on playing a warlock because he doesn't have any experience playing a magic user?

Do you guys actually not realise that the OP more or less stated that the DM is not familiar with most of the splat books out there, so he probably doesn't have high system mastery?

Do you guys actually not realise that most of the "advice" you are providing the OP has a good chance of breaking the game he is currently in and creating a lot of frustration and bad experience?

Do you guys actually not realise that saying that: "Oh I am just giving him the best that is out there and let him pick and choose what he wants" is not a valid argument since the OP doesn't know what other, less cheesy, options are viable to him (which is what he was probably after for in the first place)?

Am I the only one to actually realise that there is something terribly wrong here with what most of you are doing or am I simply deluded?

I quit these forums. Either this place is insane or I am. In any case we are not compatible.

as if a warlock is going to break the game.... he has way too little invocation for that, only worthy damage (comparable to say a barbarian or a sorcerer) when heavily optimized. What a warlock is is a bag of tricks which he can do indefinately (in contrast to the wizard who can do about anything, but only a certain number times (i.e. how any times he's got it prepared)). We do give him a lot of options (and more discussion he might have bargained for), but it's not like we hand him codzilla or batwizard...

[FMArthur]

I can agree that Hellfire Warlocks are a bit much in very low-op games. In groups of kids who have only just discovered the game, it is actually impressive damage even without the Claws and Glaive. I have been in two groups where high damage would have upset other players - and one of those groups did actually see a Hellfire Warlock made by a more experienced player, to much outrage.

The conditions for it being a problem are relatively straightforward:
The group does not play 'real' casters. In 'newbie' groups this is reasonably likely; the default D&D spellcasting system is far more cumbersome than even the most extraordinarily obtuse spellcasting systems in video games, and extensive wading through spell lists is unfun. Clerics are healbots who whack people with hammers between healing. Druids are played pure melee, with possible heals and summons. Bards, Rangers and Paladins don't really know what they are supposed to do with their spells. Wizards and Sorcerers DNE, or are played with a miniscule selection of spells - the occasional Fireball is their moment of shining glory.
The rogue's potential is utterly unknown. Rogues deal veritable fistfuls of d6s in the right conditions, but new players neither optimize their number of attacks nor do they know enough about the conditions for SA to build a character around producing them. New groups will make assumptions about what flanking is rather than looking its rules up. Rogue players may even try to be mobile, retreating to the shadows to hide after strikes; this means 1 attack/round at most and one successful Sneak Attack every two rounds.

When those conditions are met, the group is supported almost entirely by weapon damage + STR, which barely improves at all from level 1 to 20 without good feats, class features or magic gear (magic gear? What's that? Oh great, a huge goddamn table in a book no one has. We'll explore that some other time, then). If you're lucky this means a two-hander style - and even more lucky if this means a reach weapon - but you're just as likely to see a sword-and-board man or a Fighter pouring his feats into dual-wielding bastard swords (and with Complete Warrior in hand, Large bastard swords). Sneak Attacks, good blasty spells, psionic powers and yes, even Eldritch Blast, make that weapon damage look utterly pitiful.

[dextercorvia]

I can agree that Hellfire Warlocks are a bit much in very low-op games. In groups of kids who have only just discovered the game, it is actually impressive damage even without the Claws and Glaive. I have been in two groups where high damage would have upset other players - and one of those groups did actually see a Hellfire Warlock made by a more experienced player, to much outrage.

The conditions for it being a problem are relatively straightforward:
The group does not play 'real' casters. In 'newbie' groups this is reasonably likely; the default D&D spellcasting system is far more cumbersome than even the most extraordinarily obtuse spellcasting systems in video games, and extensive wading through spell lists is unfun. Clerics are healbots who whack people with hammers between healing. Druids are played pure melee, with possible heals and summons. Bards, Rangers and Paladins don't really know what they are supposed to do with their spells. Wizards and Sorcerers DNE, or are played with a miniscule selection of spells - the occasional Fireball is their moment of shining glory.
The rogue's potential is utterly unknown. Rogues deal veritable fistfuls of d6s in the right conditions, but new players neither optimize their number of attacks nor do they know enough about the conditions for SA to build a character around producing them. New groups will make assumptions about what flanking is rather than looking its rules up. Rogue players may even try to be mobile, retreating to the shadows to hide after strikes; this means 1 attack/round at most and one successful Sneak Attack every two rounds.

When those conditions are met, the group is supported almost entirely by weapon damage + STR, which barely improves at all from level 1 to 20 without good feats, class features or magic gear (magic gear? What's that? Oh great, a huge goddamn table in a book no one has. We'll explore that some other time, then). If you're lucky this means a two-hander style - and even more lucky if this means a reach weapon - but you're just as likely to see a sword-and-board man or a Fighter pouring his feats into dual-wielding bastard swords (and with Complete Warrior in hand, Large bastard swords). Sneak Attacks, good blasty spells, psionic powers and yes, even Eldritch Blast, make that weapon damage look utterly pitiful.

What you have described reminds me so much of 2e, except enemies had low enough HP that it worked.

[Ardantis]

Yeah, it sounds a lot like playing in high school, where the location of the chips was more important than the source of party damage.

I'd call a Warlock "pretty sweet" under those conditions. For a while, even in college, everyone thought they were sick because they could fly and be invisible all day, and nobody had to keep track of number or argue with the DM. I even had a DM say he didn't want players playing as Warlocks because they were so "powerful," by which he meant "easy."

This is the guy who later went on the build a Sorcerer/Paladin gestalt Ubercharger, where he learned the definition of "complicated."

[Socratov]

the thing is, yeah, he almsot gets free damage, and quite out in the open too. but that is also about the maximum he can get (at least without real shenanigans). Yes, he gets great SLA's: Flying 24/7, invisibility, bonuses to skills etc. But they too are limited. What you read is what you get. No casterlevel increases to invocations, no fireball action going on, no metamagic, except for very specific invocations and only 3/day. Yes he has some powerful abilities, but they are all he will get. Yes he has great tricks up his sleeve, but again, they are all he gets. Speaking in tiers, he is quite at home at tier 4/3. 4 without wandmaking shenanigans, 3 with. then again, Personally he's my favorite, not because of his power, but his low threshold to play (yes, he is that easy) and because he has (in my opinion, humble or otherwise) the most awesome fluff in the entire 3.5 system. Not only is the fluff great by itself, it can be modified (options are presented) in many ways while adhering to the baselines.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I quit these forums. Either this place is insane or I am. In any case we are not compatible.

Don' let the door hit ya where the good lawd split ya.

On a more serious note, how is the advice 'game breaking', why does his lack of system mastery matter, and in what way does his lack of background in playing a caster have any bearing on the conversation?

I hate to pull up the postcount fallacy, but really... you show up for less than two weeks, then make baseless accusations against a broad spectrum of forum-goers, and throw a temper tantrum... and you expect to be respected for this?

[Socratov]

well, in a way, if the complete party is tier 6/5 characters, and you go play a warlock, even slightly optimised (although very slightly) and the DM has completely no idea of casters, what they are capable of etc. the warlock might be slightly op,

sorry, that was a completely unrealistic situation. If the DM has no idea what casters do, and the rest plays tier 6/5 characters, he should have forbidden you to play warlock. On a more logical note, if you can't afford (or otherwise justify) playing an even remotely optimised warlock, why asking for advise in a forum where optimisation is a challenge and forum game. clearly the startin gposter wantd advice and ideas to play warlock. the forumites here give ideas and advice, and thus it is up to the asker to process the advice and ideas to create a character. It's not like we push people here to play heavily optimized, nor do we make people break campaigns (although it may happen by exception, for maybe right reasons, and even then heavily discouraged). Or to put it into an example: if a person commits murder with an axe, is ti the axe's fault, or the person wielding it?

[Socratov]

after having played a warlock ina game where the other 2 players played for their first time (character level 6) I can (with empyrical evidense) say that warlocks don't break the game. We were a party of a barbarian, a rogue, a warlock(me) and an NPC cleric. the cleric did nothing except healing or buffing. I was outdamaged by both the rogue and the barbarian (except when battling undead, then I found a new use for my baleful utterance), especially when we fought the BBEG who had spellresitence 20 (yeah , we butchered the CR8 encounter in 1 round, so we got a CR8 for BBEG) when I was really outdone. Luckily my experience (albeit fairly limited) helped me ('encouraging' a mook talk, knowing when to roll what skill in social encounters). I guilt my warlock slightly downtuned to damage, and more to crowd control (human, lvl 6 so feats: ability focus(eldritch blast), Kiai Shout, Able learner, Extra invocation). OK I outdo when our barbarian isn't using full attacks, and when our rogue isn't sneak attacking. ofcourse i can make up with certain tricks, but still, not op.

[SowZ]

Devils Sight+Darkness+A Bag of a Hundred Pebbles all of which have Darkness cast on them+Thrown into a room randomly=lots of funny

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Devils Sight+Darkness+A Bag of a Hundred Pebbles all of which have Darkness cast on them+Thrown into a room randomly=lots of funny

Not really, considering duration of Darkness, and the fact that it only imposes a 20% concealment modifier, it does not block LoS, does not 'black out' the room, and really kind of sucks...

[SowZ]

Not really, considering duration of Darkness, and the fact that it only imposes a 20% concealment modifier, it does not block LoS, does not 'black out' the room, and really kind of sucks...

Oh, I never said it is a powerful build. But it pisses EVERYONE off. Especially your party members. And it makes encounters take longer to resolve, so the DM is pissed, too. Funnyfunnyfunny.

[Big Fau]

If you really need to make sense of of it, think of it as giving up the life force from the vest, which is not you.

More like you are using Essentia in it's stead. And Essentia is soulstuff, so I really can't see why the Devils of Baator would complain.

[FMArthur]

Inert lifeforce doesn't taste as good to them as lifeforce reluctantly-surrendered by mortals directly. They can tell it's been used and repackaged when they open it up.

[Big Fau]

Inert lifeforce doesn't taste as good to them as lifeforce reluctantly-surrendered by mortals directly. They can tell it's been used and repackaged when they open it up.

They don't actually eat the souls you know. They use them as currency and for promotions/fueling divine magic.


Demons are the ones who usually eat souls. Devils usually try to conserve them.

[faceroll]

Is there an easy way to get strongheart vest to use necrocarnum? A glowing red vest made from the souls of the damned to fuel the eldritch energies of your hell-bound pact would be ****ing metal.

[Psyren]

I doubt Incarnum is as valuable to them as actual souls, otherwise all fiends would take up meldshaping.

Not saying I'm against the Strongheart Vest trick (which is endlessly, endlessly wrangled on these boards) but I find that fluff rationale to be hollow.

I see Incarnum as being like tofu. Sure you can shape it to look like a steak, and even add steak flavoring, but it's never going to be a steak.

[Big Fau]

I doubt Incarnum is as valuable to them as actual souls, otherwise all fiends would take up meldshaping.

It kinda didn't sell well, so they wouldn't want to make learning it mandatory for using some very specific creatures.


I honestly doubt there were even 10 people at WotC who knew how to use the damn book.

[Socratov]

snip

I see Incarnum as being like tofu. Sure you can shape it to look like a steak, and even add steak flavoring, but it's never going to be a steak.

mind if I sig this?

[Psyren]

mind if I sig this?

Go for it - though out of context it sounds like I have something against Incarnum when I really love it :smalltongue: I'm strictly speaking from a fiendish soul-connoisseur perspective.

[Socratov]

will add a note :smallbiggrin: