GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV [Archive] - Page 4

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Lord_Gareth

2012-08-21, 05:34 PM

Like... reality is just an illusion, and my hat is just an illusion, ergo controlling my hat controls reality?

Fedora Solipsists with a dash of Buddhism?

Yes. Exactly that. The hat rules the illusion, so mastering the hat gives you control over the illusion.

Teaser post for my class is up. Not much time to work on it RIGHT NOW, but will do so MOAR later.

ErrantX

2012-08-21, 05:36 PM

Good choice of item, Gareth. Good choice.

-X

Djinn_in_Tonic

2012-08-21, 05:39 PM

Yes. Exactly that. The hat rules the illusion, so mastering the hat gives you control over the illusion.

While interesting, I think there are better items for this concept. Maybe some sort of cursed "Mask of False Sight" or something.

Hyooz

2012-08-21, 05:41 PM

What was the ruling on alchemical items? Such as, say, Universal Solvent?

ErrantX

2012-08-21, 05:44 PM

What was the ruling on alchemical items? Such as, say, Universal Solvent?

Universal Solvent isn't alchemical, its magical (Wondrous Item) but its a one use item. Just stay away from one use items, because they're not going to have the longevity. Now if you made yourself a brand new magic item that was like some sort of alchemical item producer as the centerpiece of the class, that's different. But generally, one use items like anti-glue isn't in keeping with an item of power. Anything that is wholly consumed by using it isn't fitting with the contest.

-X

boomwolf

2012-08-21, 05:56 PM

Does it have to be a single magic item, or can the class be focused on a "type" of magic items (as in, "lord of the rings", except I am not aiming for rings.)

Hyooz

2012-08-21, 06:04 PM

Universal Solvent isn't alchemical, its magical (Wondrous Item) but its a one use item. Just stay away from one use items, because they're not going to have the longevity. Now if you made yourself a brand new magic item that was like some sort of alchemical item producer as the centerpiece of the class, that's different. But generally, one use items like anti-glue isn't in keeping with an item of power. Anything that is wholly consumed by using it isn't fitting with the contest.

-X

So a class based around the production and enhancement of one-use items would not be kosher, unless said production/enhancement came from a different item that did the producing/enhancing?

ErrantX

2012-08-21, 06:15 PM

Does it have to be a single magic item, or can the class be focused on a "type" of magic items (as in, "lord of the rings", except I am not aiming for rings.)

Single item, the item has to be central to the class. A master of the rod of lordly might would work, but not a class based around using a plethora of rods.

So a class based around the production and enhancement of one-use items would not be kosher, unless said production/enhancement came from a different item that did the producing/enhancing?

Correct. One item and one item only.

-X

boomwolf

2012-08-21, 06:33 PM

Hyooz

2012-08-21, 06:39 PM

Well...there goes one concept out the window...

Fixing one magic item is hard...most of them do nothing more then mimicking spells, and the unique ones are usually too bizarre to base a class around, or too simple to properly expend upon.

The biggest obstacle I've seen is finding a magic item that is both useful and interesting without being prohibitively expensive. Something like the Helm of Brilliance (which I believe Glimbur is working with) is hundreds of thousands of gil.

This contest provides some interesting balance challenges from the get-go. I'm enjoying the mental exercise.

ErrantX

2012-08-21, 06:45 PM

Hyooz

2012-08-21, 06:59 PM

You could always just invent your own brand new magic item to base a class on? That's totally okay and encouraged as well. As always, I've also placed suggestions that people can feel free to make a class based on.

-X

Part of my goal for these contests has been to homebrew as little as possible. Not out of laziness, but out of a general design philosophy aimed toward universality. My starting point is making my homebrew as accessible to as many people as possible, and part of that is designing things such that as little as possible needs to be accepted by a theoretical DM. As much as I love ToB, I'm reluctant to submit homebrew classes with homebrew disciplines because that's a lot for a potential DM to sift through and accept.

Now, I've started the design process on a class that will make use of a homebrew item for this contest, because I will stray from said philosophy when inspiration calls for it, but I figured I'd at least explain my initial reluctance to jump out of the core items.

sirpercival

2012-08-21, 08:57 PM

My entry is up, I just have to finish the NPC build.

Lord_Gareth

2012-08-21, 09:00 PM

Opening fluff up, having some difficulty making some mechanical decisions about my PrC. We'll see how it goes.

Lord_Gareth

2012-08-21, 09:45 PM

And now for the ever-popular, "Guess what Gareth's class does based on the ability names!" game!

devlingreye

2012-08-22, 11:01 AM

quick question what do all of you think about a detective pcr based of the lens of detection. im shooting for Sherlock Holmes.

Morph Bark

2012-08-22, 11:25 AM

quick question what do all of you think about a detective pcr based of the lens of detection. im shooting for Sherlock Holmes.

Go for it. My first PrC ever was something like that.

devlingreye

2012-08-22, 11:37 AM

oh its not my first. I have written plenty of homebrew Prc's. I just thought it would fill a hole that pathfinder hasn't filled yet.

Eurus

2012-08-22, 05:46 PM

And now for the ever-popular, "Guess what Gareth's class does based on the ability names!" game!

Seven League Stride: Something mobility-enhancing, possibly for overland movement rather than tactical. I doubt that it literally involves taking seven-league steps, but who knows?

Walk it Off: Heal in any turn that you move? Could be almost any defensive ability, though.

Spring into Action: Sounds like either some measure of improved initiative, or a less-terrible Spring Attack option.

Eternal Traveler: Sounds kind of like a "turn into a [creature type]" capstone. Stops needing to sleep/eat/stop, maybe.

Footwork: Probably a list of abilities that you get to pick one from each level.

:smalltongue:

EDIT: I feel like some of the awesome rods deserve a class. Immovable, Absorbtion, Lordly Might, Wonder, Rulership... but if someone does a class for the Rod of Metal and Mineral Detection, I will tip my hat to them. :smallamused:

Xallace

2012-08-22, 06:11 PM

I'm trying to figure out an awesome name for a paladin PrC focusing on the Rod of the Python.

...I should probably figure out exactly which serpent mythos I want to pull from first.

sirpercival

2012-08-22, 06:17 PM

I'm trying to figure out an awesome name for a paladin PrC focusing on the Rod of the Python.

...I should probably figure out exactly which serpent mythos I want to pull from first.

Paladin++? Pyladin?

EdroGrimshell

2012-08-22, 08:26 PM

I'm doing a PrC based on a Goodberry Bracelet.

MoleMage

2012-08-22, 09:39 PM

Either Hand of the Mage or Glove of Storing. Haven't decided which one yet.

Zaydos

2012-08-22, 09:50 PM

I'll admit that a havversack is certainly handy, and that boots of striding and springing will take you far. There is a certain squamous appeal to a Knight of the Serpent, and something captivating about aberrant spheres, but even so I look upon these ideas and something occurs to me. If even the Apparatus of Kwalish is deserving of a prestige class, then what about the humble Cloak? How often has your character's life been saved by the Resistance it offers? How often has a saving throw's doom been averted by its gentle aegis? Yet it gets no respect, or gratitude when the greatest homage and dedication we can offer it is nigh?

This I will not stand for. When girding myself for adventure, without my Cloak I may as well be naked, and to it I will pay my respect and offering.

...

If you can't tell I'm going to throw my hat in the ring with a Cloak of Resistance based PrC because unless I'm a caster with Superior Resistance it is the top thing on my list to buy because that saving throw bonus is the difference between life and death all too often. Just need to actually buckle down and make it soon.

Fable Wright

2012-08-23, 02:42 AM

I have an interesting idea for this contest floating around in my head...

Would 'possessing' a Magical Location count as an Item for the purposes of this contest?

ErrantX

2012-08-23, 05:05 PM

I have an interesting idea for this contest floating around in my head...

Would 'possessing' a Magical Location count as an Item for the purposes of this contest?

I had forgotten about magical locations, maybe PM me a the dime store synopsis of your idea? I'm leery of it.

-X

Xallace

2012-08-23, 08:38 PM

I didn't even think about it but the most difficult part of writing up this class is phrasing things in a way that don't sound like horrible innuendo.

Eurus

2012-08-23, 10:35 PM

I didn't even think about it but the most difficult part of writing up this class is phrasing things in a way that don't sound like horrible innuendo.

I feel like you're doing it wrong.

sirpercival

2012-08-25, 08:24 AM

Question: Is an example encounter + NPC stat block a necessary fluff inclusion?

Also, inspired by this contest, I spurred one into motion over on minmaxboards (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6782.0) if anyone wants to participate.

Glimbur

2012-08-25, 08:58 AM

Question: Is an example encounter + NPC stat block a necessary fluff inclusion?

Nope. It is allowed, and maybe even encouraged, but not necessary.

Fable Wright

2012-08-25, 11:44 AM

All right, I have a different idea for a class this contest. Dibs on Marvellous Pigments...

Lord_Gareth

2012-08-25, 12:04 PM

Xallace

2012-08-25, 12:31 PM

All right, I have a different idea for a class this contest. Dibs on Marvellous Pigments...

Aren't those consumables?

Okay, what the flaming hell? Did no one else read the rule where you can't re-post your class on these boards (or technically any other boards) until the voting is finished? First it happens in the last competition, and now again in this one. Folks, it is not allowed.

I know it's a rule we've discussed in the chat thread, but looking over this particular contests rules, I can't find it. There's a passage about not using previously posted classes. Perhaps it was a small oversight? Although I guess you could say it helps to weed out the competition. Eh? Eh?
Also, I guess I should have asked this beforehand, but: is it alright that I have my class split into two posts (main class + special companion) or should I merge them together?

Jeff the Green

2012-08-25, 12:46 PM

Okay, what the flaming hell? Did no one else read the rule where you can't re-post your class on these boards (or technically any other boards) until the voting is finished? First it happens in the last competition, and now again in this one. Folks, it is not allowed.

I'm guessing you're talking about mine, the livewood daughter? I realized as I finished it doesn't quite fit the contest guidelines, so I gave it it's own topic. I just haven't had the time to update the contest post.

Zelkon

2012-08-25, 02:31 PM

Lord_Gareth: That was my bad last time. I asked the question and misinterpreted the answer.

ErrantX

2012-08-25, 03:10 PM

All right, I have a different idea for a class this contest. Dibs on Marvellous Pigments...

Those are consumables normally, but they do create a permanent effect; those are a hard one to classify. Perhaps something that grants unlimited uses of the pigments, like a Marvelous Brush to go with said pigments that does so, or the class specifically makes it never run dry? Or the ability to refill it? It's because it makes a permanent effect I'm more okay with it than say a potion or a scroll.

Okay, what the flaming hell? Did no one else read the rule where you can't re-post your class on these boards (or technically any other boards) until the voting is finished? First it happens in the last competition, and now again in this one. Folks, it is not allowed.

Cool down man, it's not the end of the world :D They're first timers to my knowledge and.... (see below)

I know it's a rule we've discussed in the chat thread, but looking over this particular contests rules, I can't find it. There's a passage about not using previously posted classes. Perhaps it was a small oversight? Although I guess you could say it helps to weed out the competition. Eh? Eh?
Also, I guess I should have asked this beforehand, but: is it alright that I have my class split into two posts (main class + special companion) or should I merge them together?

I used apparently an older version of my template as I wasn't at my desktop and was grabbing it off of my thumb drive. It should be in there, but apparently I've been using an older version for a while now. Meh. Its added in now. Please do not post outside of the contest until voting happens.

I'm guessing you're talking about mine, the livewood daughter? I realized as I finished it doesn't quite fit the contest guidelines, so I gave it it's own topic. I just haven't had the time to update the contest post.

Yeah... I'm not thrilled with people posting outside of the contest, but as I believe you're new to the contest (correct me please if I'm wrong) I'll just give you a friendly please don't do that? I'm not going to DQ on the first offense, so if you decide to redo a new class or keep this one, its up to you. Livewood was a neat theme.

Lord_Gareth: That was my bad last time. I asked the question and misinterpreted the answer.

Happens, just try not to do it again :smallsmile:; we're mostly friendly and the idea is to have fun and be creative. The rules are in place for thematic reasons mostly and to not curry an unfair advantage in voting. But at the end of the day, we're just friends being creative with each other and that is the whole point to this contest :smallbiggrin:

-X

Zelkon

2012-08-25, 04:50 PM

Can you post a peach thread that leads to your post in the contest, out of curiosity?

Eldan

2012-08-25, 07:13 PM

Hm. A staff wizard is an idea, but it's hardly original. The Ram-ring brawler sounds mighty fun, but I feel cheap taking something that was posted in the first post. I might do it anyway, somewhere away from the contest, though.

Edit: got it. Dips on Cape of the Mountebank.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2012-08-25, 08:15 PM

Can you post a peach thread that leads to your post in the contest, out of curiosity?

I'd hazard a guess at no, since the idea is that one entry shouldn't have a huge critique lead on the others. It's effectively the same as making a second thread: you have more opportunity to revise than others would.

Zelkon

2012-08-26, 09:49 AM

Shoot, my joke broke the thread. Fixing.

devlingreye

2012-08-26, 11:36 PM

Hey guys if anyone gets a chance would they mind peaching my class for me. I think it would be a cool class to play, plus one of my pc's would like to play it.

Eurus

2012-08-27, 10:53 AM

Oh man. I wasn't going to enter, but I had an idea. Lyre of Building, aw yeah.

Hyooz

2012-08-27, 09:22 PM

The Viscergist has joined the fight!

The tone is more... flippant than I typically use for these contests, but do not mistake it for a joke class. This was a really fun challenge, and while it will likely require some tweaking, I'm excited to have it up.

MoleMage

2012-08-27, 10:27 PM

That's disgusting and awesome.

EDIT: On a note unrelated to my original post but still appropriate to the thread, Preliminary stages of the Dancer of Blades (using Dancing Weapons) have begun. I am open to suggestions for Dancing Weapon Tricks.

Hyooz

2012-08-27, 10:45 PM

That's disgusting and awesome.

Exactly what I was going for!

Cheesy74

2012-08-28, 12:11 AM

MoleMage

2012-08-28, 01:30 AM

The Card Shark is in the running. It's a bit hard to critique until the Deck of Battle is written up tomorrow (it'll use the same number of cards as the Deck of Many Things), but what do you think of the core mechanics? I was really pleased with the results of throwing this together.

The only Deck of Battle mechanics that need to be known to critique the class are: it takes a Swift action to draw from the Deck of Battle and a Standard action to activate a card.

Look in my sig. Don't worry, mine's a monster you're still okay to use the name for a class. Just wanted you to know.

This counts as permission to use the creature any way you'd feel it goes with the class (I would be tickled if you did).

sirpercival

2012-08-28, 07:30 AM

Anyone have any comments on the Enigmatician?

ErrantX

2012-08-28, 09:51 AM

AND THE WINNER OF CONTEST XXXIII: PET ME! IS....

Lord_Gareth and the Judex of the Pale Thorn!

I'm giving it ErrantX's pick as well, as I deeply enjoyed Gareth's previous Children of the Mausoleum, and showing more love towards one of my favorite entries from this contest is a sneaky way to get my good graces.

-X

Morph Bark

2012-08-28, 01:20 PM

Congratulations, Gareth!

Just know that this means we shan't let you win the next one too, k? :smallwink:

On that note though, who has won the PrC Contest most often? I'm kinda curious about that.

MoleMage

2012-08-28, 01:40 PM

Maybe put the winner of each contest in the first post by the list of contests?

sirpercival

2012-08-28, 01:45 PM

Congrats, Gareth!

Hyooz

2012-08-28, 03:17 PM

Anyone have any comments on the Enigmatician?

I plan to go through most of the entries and do some commentating. It won't be the highly-detailed PEACHes I used to do, as grad school is a vicious, time-eating monster, but I hope to at least get some good critique in.

sirpercival

2012-08-28, 03:22 PM

I plan to go through most of the entries and do some commentating. It won't be the highly-detailed PEACHes I used to do, as grad school is a vicious, time-eating monster, but I hope to at least get some good critique in.

Lol. I do my grad school stuff in between homebrewing and pbp updating. ;)

Lord_Gareth

2012-08-28, 06:35 PM

Glimbur

2012-08-28, 07:40 PM

Class is up. Useless trivia: almost every level has a class feature with 'Justice' in the name, apart from 9th and 10th.

I should start PEACHing classes.

bindin garoth

2012-08-29, 10:33 AM

Alright! All of the class features of the Wielder of the Dimensional Gallery are up!

PEACHES are appreciated, if anyone wants a peach let me know (I'll take a look at sirpercival's when I get a moment).

As a note: I know not all of the abilities from the Teachings of the Weapons are not balanced (Especially Ki Pool and Inspiration points). I plan on taking a small break from it, and then coming back, working on fluff and balancing these abilities. It's always easier for me when I walk away and look at it with fresh eyes.

Lord_Gareth

2012-08-29, 06:41 PM

Man, this one might take me awhile. Got the class skills and Special Requirement up, anyway.

Glimbur

2012-08-30, 06:49 PM

PEACH of Enigmatician.

Picture is unusual. I like it.

Entry is 5th level caster and you have to take a decent feat. Not too expensive. That's good too.

2+ skills and d4 hit die is very wizard. This is furthered by 1/2 bab and good will.

8/10 casting is expensive but feasible. Honestly, this is my problem with caster PrCs: either you lose a little casting so the abilities can't be too good or you are at about 6/10 casting and the abilities have to be amazing and.... tl;dr casters = too strong. Kind of a tangent.

Puzzle Box is the heart of the class. There is a core and puzzles around it. You tell us how to charge the core. I'm not sure of the right order of explanation for complicated abilities. Then we learn that puzzles are great and are kind of /per encounter powers. Also we see how to discharge the core.

Puzzles are interesting. Their power grows the longer the encounter goes on, because you unlock more of them, and each puzzle is actually three powers which helps versatility. Of the puzzle materials... the themes hold together until Cherry, which has a power closer to Oak, a power more like Birch, and a power like Ash. I'd either cut it or give it a unifying theme. Elder should give DR/alignment to keep its theme tighter. Elm is kind of a broad theme too, as is Holly, Oak, Copper, Platinum should do Dex damage instead. Other too-broad materials include Agate, Amber, Bloodstone, Carnelian (change out haste, the other two fit), Emerald (kick out turning), Jade shouldn't Detect Scrying (try Unluck instead).

The problem I see with Puzzles is that they take a standard action in combat, which is time you could instead spend casting a spell. Some of them are spells, which is hard to avoid because there are so many spell effects, but you are already a spellcaster. The ones that are not spells are... mostly not worth doing instead of casting a spell.

Enigmas! They're like stances in that they are always-on and you only get one at a time. Sublime Communication is free Divination, because you can do it out of combat at little risk. The rest are... ok, I guess.

Puzzling Mind is ok.

Riddling Soul is kind of nice.

I like the base idea, but I'm not sure I like the execution. You have clearly put a lot of work in to making a bunch of materials for the class, but some of them don't hold together thematically and lots of them are kind of weak. Consider adding a class level requirement to some materials so you can make them stronger. Getting stronger as fights go on is interesting, but typically combat is decided in ~3 rounds unless the fight is very large or has very unusual terrain. I would add level restrictions instead of requiring UL 3+ for abilities. Good luck in the contest!

Zelkon

2012-09-01, 10:35 AM

Djinn_in_Tonic

2012-09-01, 12:10 PM

I...I won? For the first time ever?

THE CHILDREN OF THE MAUSOLEUM HAVE BEEN AVEEEEEEEEEEEENGED!

Will try very hard to repeat!

Congrats, boss! I won't apologize for the Sibyl of the Blinded Eye beating out the Children of the Mausoleum though. Only one I'll apologize for is the Unfettered Knight, which sort of bothers me (a 25-minute creation submitted an hour or two before the deadline probably shouldn't win).

Anyway, a well-deserves win, my friend. *applauds*

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-01, 12:34 PM

Congrats, boss! I won't apologize for the Sibyl of the Blinded Eye beating out the Children of the Mausoleum though. Only one I'll apologize for is the Unfettered Knight, which sort of bothers me (a 25-minute creation submitted an hour or two before the deadline probably shouldn't win).

Anyway, a well-deserves win, my friend. *applauds*

The difference being, of course, that I'm not as proud of the Eliminators as I am of my Children ^_^

Still, hopefully you throw your hat in on this contest so I can try and defeat MINE TRUE FOE once more.

Zelkon

2012-09-01, 12:41 PM

The difference being, of course, that I'm not as proud of the Eliminators as I am of my Children ^_^

Still, hopefully you throw your hat in on this contest so I can try and defeat MINE TRUE FOE once more.

Nah, I'm obviously going to win with my mastery* of 3.5 crunch.

*actualy, change this to "lacking of any knowledge."

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-01, 01:24 PM

Having a bit of trouble with my Goodberry Bracelet PrC. Need a name, mostly

sirpercival

2012-09-01, 01:51 PM

PEACH of Enigmatician. Whoo! Thank you :D

Picture is unusual. I like it. Yeah, I'm pretty happy with it. I had a couple others, but nothing else really captured the sort of mystery I was looking for.

Entry is 5th level caster and you have to take a decent feat. Not too expensive. That's good too.

2+ skills and d4 hit die is very wizard. This is furthered by 1/2 bab and good will. Yup. :)

8/10 casting is expensive but feasible. Honestly, this is my problem with caster PrCs: either you lose a little casting so the abilities can't be too good or you are at about 6/10 casting and the abilities have to be amazing and.... tl;dr casters = too strong. Kind of a tangent. Yeah, I like 8/10 as a good balance point for 10-level classes because you can still get 9th-level spells, but somewhat delayed to make up for the abilities of the class.

Puzzle Box is the heart of the class. There is a core and puzzles around it. You tell us how to charge the core. I'm not sure of the right order of explanation for complicated abilities. Then we learn that puzzles are great and are kind of /per encounter powers. Also we see how to discharge the core. Yeah, it's kinda complicated and hard to explain... I'll take another look and see if I can clean it up a bit.

Puzzles are interesting. Their power grows the longer the encounter goes on, because you unlock more of them, and each puzzle is actually three powers which helps versatility. Of the puzzle materials... the themes hold together until Cherry, which has a power closer to Oak, a power more like Birch, and a power like Ash. I'd either cut it or give it a unifying theme. Elder should give DR/alignment to keep its theme tighter. Elm is kind of a broad theme too, as is Holly, Oak, Copper, Platinum should do Dex damage instead. Other too-broad materials include Agate, Amber, Bloodstone, Carnelian (change out haste, the other two fit), Emerald (kick out turning), Jade shouldn't Detect Scrying (try Unluck instead). I'll work on those, thank you for the suggestions!

The problem I see with Puzzles is that they take a standard action in combat, which is time you could instead spend casting a spell. Some of them are spells, which is hard to avoid because there are so many spell effects, but you are already a spellcaster. The ones that are not spells are... mostly not worth doing instead of casting a spell. Yeah... this is going to be not as powerful (or maybe about equal) as a straight spellcaster casting spells, except you can do it all day. I'm not sure what to do about that, though, since if you can do them faster, then it's overpowered.

Enigmas! They're like stances in that they are always-on and you only get one at a time. Sublime Communication is free Divination, because you can do it out of combat at little risk. The rest are... ok, I guess. Yeah, they're more for interesting flavor than mechanical benefit.

Puzzling Mind is ok.

Riddling Soul is kind of nice. Lol.

I like the base idea, but I'm not sure I like the execution. You have clearly put a lot of work in to making a bunch of materials for the class, but some of them don't hold together thematically and lots of them are kind of weak. Consider adding a class level requirement to some materials so you can make them stronger. Getting stronger as fights go on is interesting, but typically combat is decided in ~3 rounds unless the fight is very large or has very unusual terrain. I would add level restrictions instead of requiring UL 3+ for abilities. Good luck in the contest! That's not a bad idea, though the whole concept is that as you release more energy, you get stronger effects.

What if I include an option to let you unlock two puzzles as a full-round action? That way it helps with the action economy, and you can get much higher UL with it, but you still won't be spellcasting and unlocking. Thoughts?

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-01, 02:10 PM

Lord Gareth, quick question for your entry, would having multiple items mixed into a Boots of Springing and Striding (like adding boots of stomping) cause it to not be counted as Boots of Springing and Striding anymore or would they still qualify? I can see adding boots of skating or the like to it for an added boost.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-01, 02:58 PM

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-01, 03:14 PM

I honestly don't know. I've never encountered any items that were boots+

It's something from the MIC, you can add another enchantment to an item from another at a +50% cost. I think that it would be interesting, esspecially if done right.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-01, 03:18 PM

It's something from the MIC, you can add another enchantment to an item from another at a +50% cost. I think that it would be interesting, esspecially if done right.

Well, I'm fairly certain that by RAW they'd probably still be boots of striding and springing. To be honest, I've never read the MIC and I don't care to fret over this particular contingency - it'd throw the whole contest out the door, y'know?

MoleMage

2012-09-01, 04:47 PM

God, I'm having trouble with how to make this class viable to melees and spellcasters alike. I know I want a mechanic that allows a caster to pull out a weapon and start hacking and slashing, and one that gives a melee guy the ability to pull out a wand and cast a spell to get out of a quick fix, but I don't know how to balance this with caster level, BAB, spells per day, and everything. Help, please!

One thought I had when I was still considering a Glove of Storing PrC was the ability to using it to store intangible things (such as storing fire and releasing it later as a ranged touch attack, or storing smoke or mist to produce a cloud effect). Maybe allow the storage granted by your cloak of useful bags of holding to capture certain intangible things like spells, gouts of flame, air, thoughts, etc. Then instead of pulling a wand, a warrior pulls a stream of positive energy or some such.

Make the damage, healing, and/or area affected scale with level, and maybe add different effects per level (like the ability to capture a stench to produce a stinking cloud eventually).

Glimbur

2012-09-01, 09:25 PM

What if I include an option to let you unlock two puzzles as a full-round action? That way it helps with the action economy, and you can get much higher UL with it, but you still won't be spellcasting and unlocking. Thoughts?

You might actually be better off making a second unlock a swift action, what with quickened spells and a few magic items and such. Doing aggressive things with a move action is dangerous in the action economy.

As I said, it's a cool idea. I might have written it as a non-caster PrC, but that's because I have a soft spot for non-casters.

Zelkon

2012-09-02, 12:54 PM

Maybe this would be better as a base class... NO! I must carry on.

Zelkon

2012-09-02, 02:23 PM

Time to play a variation Lord_Gareth's favorite game, Suggest What the Abilities do Based on their Names Cause I'm Out of Ideas.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-02, 04:02 PM

Maybe this would be better as a base class... NO! I must carry on.

Pro Tip - if you're having issues producing material for a PrC, the concept would only be worse as a base class. Base classes need to be broad, not narrow.

Zelkon

2012-09-02, 06:37 PM

Pro Tip - if you're having issues producing material for a PrC, the concept would only be worse as a base class. Base classes need to be broad, not narrow.

Actually it was more the fact that I was having trouble creating mechanics that had to build off other classes currently existing mechanics. A base class can use its own spellcasting mechanics, or attacks, or whatnot, but a PrC must build on preexisting spellcasting ability, or BAB, or other mechanics.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-02, 07:22 PM

Actually it was more the fact that I was having trouble creating mechanics that had to build off other classes currently existing mechanics. A base class can use its own spellcasting mechanics, or attacks, or whatnot, but a PrC must build on preexisting spellcasting ability, or BAB, or other mechanics.

Wrong! Plenty of PrCs have their own spell lists, and no rule says you can't create their own spellcasting mechanics if you want. Plenty of PrCs around here have introduced wholly unique alterations to existing material - notably, the Midnight Occultist.

Zelkon

2012-09-02, 08:08 PM

Wrong! Plenty of PrCs have their own spell lists, and no rule says you can't create their own spellcasting mechanics if you want. Plenty of PrCs around here have introduced wholly unique alterations to existing material - notably, the Midnight Occultist.

I'm not saying that you can't. Or at least, I didn't mean to. I meant that a wizard needs faster levels to keep up and fighters need BAB and creating a prestige class for all classes makes it hard to stay competitive. I'm having a hard time explaining it right.

Glimbur

2012-09-02, 08:47 PM

I'm not saying that you can't. Or at least, I didn't mean to. I meant that a wizard needs faster levels to keep up and fighters need BAB and creating a prestige class for all classes makes it hard to stay competitive. I'm having a hard time explaining it right.

You might try narrowing your focus then. Make it a class primarily for fighters (or for wizards). You could also do what was done in Complete Champion to a few classes: you choose a focus which alters the class. Different class features, even different BAB.

Zelkon

2012-09-02, 09:02 PM

You might try narrowing your focus then. Make it a class primarily for fighters (or for wizards). You could also do what was done in Complete Champion to a few classes: you choose a focus which alters the class. Different class features, even different BAB.

That's sort of what I'm doing. I've been working on the class in the time between my post and L_G's reply.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-02, 10:35 PM

For some reason this class I'm making is turning out to be a very defensive class, sorta, gishy.

Zaydos

2012-09-02, 10:38 PM

For some reason this class I'm making is turning out to be a very defensive class, sorta, gishy.

Mine is straight defensive, but then again I was basing it off of Cloak of Resistance which is a pretty defensive item. Mine isn't gishy, though.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-02, 10:52 PM

Mine is straight defensive, but then again I was basing it off of Cloak of Resistance which is a pretty defensive item. Mine isn't gishy, though.

>_>
<_<

Mine turns the character into a plant with Damage Reduction, Natural Armor, Fast Healing, and is based on a healing item... and it still advances class features from your previous class, although it is stunted.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-03, 12:50 AM

And the Verdant (name up for change) is up, anyone mind PEACHing what's there? (I'll be adding the options for Goodberry Roots soonish, but mainly they're just new ways to use the goodberries)

ErrantX

2012-09-03, 10:29 AM

Alright, halfway through or thereabouts, figured I'd give my heads up to those in the contest.

bindin_garoth, Lord_Gareth, Zelkon, MoleMage, and Cheezy74 (with a truly impressive Deck of Battle, I must say): Your entries are unfinished or the very least do not have the required fluff sections; nothing fancy is needed, but something is required there or I have to DQ the class in a couple weeks when the voting starts. Just a friendly warning.

Jeff the Green: Your entry is sadly DQ'd (yes, I know you know this as it has been discussed), so if you would perhaps clear your entry out of the class as a more or less blank post or replace it with an entry that is valid? Thanks!

-X

Zelkon

2012-09-03, 10:47 AM

I procrastinate till the last moment, so my entry won't be done till the 19th.

bindin garoth

2012-09-03, 12:02 PM

I know its a little late, but I'm considering changing my entry. I'll probably post my first entry outside of the context once I finish my new entry. For some reason just feel like my current enter is missing something, just don't know what.

On another note, for this class, does items created by the Gramarist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252794), specifically the dimensional spaces created by Yggdratecture, count as an item for this contest?

Owrtho

2012-09-03, 02:14 PM

Well, I might just have to make an entry for this contest, despite previously deciding I'd skip it. Initially I'd considered trying to make a PRC that turned fire weapons into a source of fire that could burn and spread to anything, but figured it would be a bit tricky to balance and not that interesting. I'd also considered the possibility of a PRC focused on the decanter of endless water, and making it produce various fluids and substances as they needed them (like acid, fire, darkness, etc.) but while the idea is fun, I'm not sure I could fully flesh it out to make it work.
Then just recently I came up for an idea that would use a homebrew item also just come up with. That said, I'm not used to balancing items, so I'd request some feedback on the initial version of the item below.

Toymaker's Creation
The toymaker's creation appears to be a crystal ball held within an elegant frame and base. Looking inside one can see the ball is hollow and contains what seems to be a small model of scenery. The specific scene varies for each such item, but may be things like a meadow, village, cottage, forest, town, or city. In any event it is always crafted to a high degree of detail and contains various little flakes inside that can be made to move around by tilting or shaking the whole thing. They do however bear an enchantment, such that those touching them feel as if the world shifts in the same manner that they make the scenery within the ball shift. With focus this may be extended to others. The crystal ball may freely rotate within its frame and will settle facing upright if left alone. The maker was said to be a crafter of toys who went mad later in his life and produced dozens of them.
Abilities: A toymaker's creation has three charges. These regenerate at the start of each day and any not used from the previous day are lost. Using it requires at least one free hand.
0 charges: Tilting the toymaker's creation may be done without expending any charges and affects anyone touching it (including the one tilting it), whether they intended to make use of this ability or not. It may be tilted to 4 degrees, if using only one hand, roll a 1d4 to determine the degree it is tilted, if using two hands the tilter may select the degree. When tilted those touching it must make a balance check (see below for DC) or fall a certain number of feet (see below) in a direction chosen by the tilter when they first tilt the toymaker's creation and wind up prone. Treat them as falling 10 feet less than they did for determining fall damage. If the tilter is using two hands, they may keep it tilted for multiple rounds so long as they do not fail the balance check. As long as it remains tilted, any movement by those affected requires a balance check to avoid falling, though the DC is reduced by 10. Anyone who ceases contact with the toymaker's creation stops being affected by it at the start of their next turn.
{table=head]Degree|Balance DC|Fall Distance
1|15|5'
2|20|10'
3|25|15'
4|30|20'[/table]
1 Charge: One may spend a charge to cause the toymaker's creation to affect someone or something not contacting it. Doing so requires a spot check to line up the target when looking through the crystal ball (DC of spotting it normally + 15). The target counts as if contacting the toymakers creation until the start of the users next turn.
3 Charges: By spending 3 charges, the user can make everyone within 15' of them count as being in contact with the toymaker's creation.

Owrtho

ErrantX

2012-09-03, 02:39 PM

MoleMage

2012-09-03, 04:02 PM

Still trying to come up with Dancing Weapon Tricks for the even levels.

So far all I've got is:

Two Weapon Dancing:
Your Many Blades ability can now apply to a one-handed and a light off-hand weapon for each weapon it would normally apply to. These weapons all gain the benefit of any Two-Weapon Fighting feats you may have.

Aaaaaand now I have a couple extra. I guess that means I'm ready for preliminary PEACH on the Dancer of Blades. How about it ladies and gents? I'll trade 'em.

Zaydos

2012-09-03, 05:27 PM

Well giving it's crunch a quick look over (I don't make a habit of PEACHing fluff since it's too subjective). Also note I tend to attenuate the negative when critiquing.

Entry Requirements: I must note that the class will be hard to finish pre-epic because if you're taking it in game you don't normally have the gold required to buy a dancing weapon until some point during Lv 10 and then that takes all your gold. More likely you won't be able to buy one till around Lv 12 meaning your first level in this class would be Lv 13. It's something that won't apply to every game, a lot of games start at higher levels, but it's something to keep in mind.

4 + Int skills, d8 hit dice, good bab, and two good saves. Looking over the skill list it might could have d10 hp.

Now on to abilities:

Many Blades: A Dancer of Blades ignores the normal turn limit for a single Dancing Weapon, plus an additional Dancing Weapon at 4th, 7th, and 10th level. All weapons affected by this ability must be of the same type, and the Dancer of Blades cannot wield another type of weapon (but doesn't need to wield a weapon). For every Dancing Weapon kept active in this way, a Dancer of Blades and all his Dancing Weapons suffer a -1 cumulative penalty to all attack rolls.

Well theoretically all this does is free up a few standard actions at the start of the battle at the cost of a penalty to hit (up to -4). That said it frees up standard actions and effectively gives you 5 full attacks per round, which would normally not be possible (though with a belt of battle you could do it on round 4 1/day). It's fairly powerful but also requires a minimum of 201,200 GP (assuming +1 Dancing Clubs) so that balances it some. More accurately that they'll be +1 weapons does, beware mixing with a character able to cast Greater Magic Weapon and pearls of power (now you have 5 full attacks each round with +5 weapons at Lv 20).

Also I need to start equipping characters with dancing weapons.

Weapon Call: At 3rd level, a Dancer of Blades can activate a Dancing Weapon as a move action. At 7th level, a Dancer of Blades can activate a Dancing Weapon as a swift action.

If wealth wasn't an issue this could make the above far more powerful as you gain more dancing weapons, thankfully you probably have to invest into defense with most of the rest (having spent something like 250,000 GP on weapons already, more if you want stuff like + energy damage etc).

Transferred Opportunity: Starting at 5th level, whenever a Dancer of Blades could make an attack of opportunity, he can instead have one of his Dancing Weapons attack any target within range, even if that target did not provoke the attack of opportunity. This counts as using an attack of opportunity for that round.

This ability doesn't really make sense (this person dropped his guard which makes someone else easier to attack), this is made worse by the fact that theoretically your allies provoke attacks of opportunity. The wizard next to you casts a spell, you get a free attack. The rogue moves, free attack. This is not good and there's not really a way to explain it without it making less sense than it already does.

Constant Dance: At 9th level, a Dancer of Blades's iconic weapons are always prepared to fight for him. Whenever they draw their regular weapon, any Dancing Weapons they have of the same type begin Dancing, up to the limit of their Many Blades ability.

Again dangerous if they have 10 dancing weapons, but hopefully WBL will stop that. It is something for prospective DMs to note, though.

Threatening Dance: At 10th level, a Dancer of Blades's Many Blades can threaten any squares they are able to attack. Attacks of opportunity made by any such weapon count against the Dancer of Blades's normal limit. Even if they are considered flanking, Dancing Weapons never gain the benefits of Sneak Attack damage (or similar precision damage), but they can still score critical hits as usual.

The limit for attacks of opportunity each round keeps this from being too strong, though this does make maneuvering hard for enemies. Still so late game, and overshadowed by Transferred Opportunity in many ways (do to allies) I can't really see this as that strong.

Off-balance Dance:
Requirement: Improved Trip, Improved Feint or Improved Disarm
When making a trip, disarm, or feint attempt against a target which one of your Many Blades is capable of striking, you can forgo that weapon's attacks for a round to gain a +4 bonus to attempt. You can use this benefit from multiple weapons, and the bonuses stack. You must have the feat appropriate to the special attack you are making to benefit from this trick.

I'd advice against allowing stacking. Hopefully +16 to a single trip attempt will never be worth giving up 4 full round attacks, but I still think that potentially adding +16 is probably too strong of an ability.

Spontaneous Dance
Requirement: Dancer of Blades level 5
You have become attuned to the magics of Dancing Weapons. As a standard action, you can give any weapon within 30 feet the Dancing effect and start it dancing. This weapon cannot benefit from your Many Blades ability.

If you use this on a weapon wielded by an unwilling owner, the effect fails. If you use this on a weapon on someone's person but not wielded, they are entitled to a Reflex save (DC=10+Dancer of Blades Level+Intelligence Modifier) to prevent the weapon from Dancing.

This is a Spell-like Ability.

I love this ability which is why I'm sad I have to advice against it. You get 4 weapons, preferably magic/material for DR purposes. You now get 5 full attacks round 1 of combat (in addition to movement), 6 round 2, 7 round 3, and 8 round 4. Yes you're at -4, but Girallon Flesh Whirlwind is called an AC based save or die and is simply (on average) +70 damage on a full attack if you hit 8 times (meaning are duel-wielding for -2). Actually I'd just limit you to 1 weapon affected by this ability at a time.

That's just a quick look over.

Hyooz

2012-09-03, 06:54 PM

bindin garoth

2012-09-04, 06:50 AM

I'm gonna drop some brief PEACHes here. Basically going in order as much as I can. These won't be the in-depth point-by-point peaches I used to do, but hopefully you find them useful :smallbiggrin:

Wielder of the Dimensional Gallery

Thanks for the PEACH :smallbiggrin:

I find it curious that a class based almost entirely around using weapons has poor BAB. I understand that with the generic "class feature" advancement it might be scary to think of a caster taking this and getting free good BAB, but unless something later on really helps this class hit things, you might need to crank up this particular knob.

I had actually meant to make it at least medium, if not full. I used a table generator for the class and apparently forgot to change it.

Seems weird that there's the potential for the transformation into Dimensional Galleries could potentially be a nerf. With no Charisma bonus, the Gloves actually become worse because of the lack of subtlety. Why Charisma, anyway?

Originally I was figuring on making it dependent on some mental stat modifier, and decided on Charisma. But with such a wide range of classes that could potentially enter it, I'm going to change it to purely based upon class levels (as much as possible anyway).

I really dig Dimensional Enhancements. It's a great way to make versatility not a punishment in DnD, and encourage people to switch it up more often during combat. Combined with Custom Weapons, I really like this.

Good! Glad you like it. Exactly what I was aiming for. :smallbiggrin:

Feat of Weapons is the kind of thing melee classes really need, but probably does put this over most other fighting classes (outside the ToB, most likely.) Still, it lets you be effective AND versatile. Which I'm ok with, really.

Good. This allows them to be effective with all different types of weapons, but not as good as someone who specialized in one specific fighting style (such as the ubercharger).

Teachings of Weapons are a mixed bag. Some are kind of eh, some are really damn good. Initiating classes get pretty killer bonuses here. Two strikes as a Full Round Action? Sign me up. Lots of free feats from this class.

This week I plan on going through these and evening them out more. I want it to be a viable option to all classes after all. I originally just typed out what ever came to my head, with only small revisions.

Final Assault is really cool, but I think the downside is a bit much. Five attacks in a round (really, the most likely amount of attacks you'll be making with this, since I don't see anyone really having a high Cha and taking this class) isn't that ridiculous. Heck, it'll be a downgrade for a lot of high-level melee people with Full BAB. No need to fatigue them afterward.

Hmmmmm......... I'm debating how to go about this. Might just make it with all weapons they possess, and have them able to carry a number of weapons equal to 1 + class levels. What do you think?

Overall, it's a really fun class, with a lot of potential power behind it. I see Initiating classes liking this the most, but even then, the poor BAB really, really, really hurts. Also the hit die is pretty low for a combat class, and might be worth at least a good Fort save too. I'm not sure why Cha of all stats is what class abilities get based on, and as much as I appreciate the work you've done here, I just don't see, say, Binders bothering with the class. Might be fun, though, I dunno. There is something to be said for those 5 free levels of the base class.

Glad you like it! Hopefully with a few changes, it'll appeal to all classes!

I'll go ahead and make a few changes later today! Still debating if I'll change the class or not, with this feedback might not (might not have the time anyway, with my spellbound hombrew project.......).

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-04, 09:51 AM

Can I get a peach on the Verdant as it is now? I'll be adding to it soon, but I'd like to know what people think.

MoleMage

2012-09-04, 08:37 PM

Of note: the Many Blades ability mostly serves to limit which Dancing Weapons the other class abilities apply to.

Perhaps I should spend the next two weeks reworking this to specialize in a single dancing weapon over 5 levels to make it fall within WBL...and not be OP numbers of attacks.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-05, 09:09 AM

Zaydos

2012-09-05, 10:05 AM

The crunch on Walker of the Endless Way is completely done! Fluff to come soon, but I'll take PEACHes on the mechanics from anyone kind enough to give 'em to me. I really wish I had more time to PEACH other folks' stuff, but I barely have the ability to get on and hammer out my own class as it is, sadly T_T Maybe when I have my own internet again.

I'd give you one, but going over the list of class features and saying I like it wouldn't be very useful.

The most constructive thing I can say is that I wouldn't allow it, or more precisely Walk it Off, in my IRL planescape game. That has more to do with the style of planescape and my game (getting to places can be an adventure in itself and is often half the adventure) than the ability, though.

All in all it looks really nice.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-05, 10:12 AM

I'd give you one, but going over the list of class features and saying I like it wouldn't be very useful.

The most constructive thing I can say is that I wouldn't allow it, or more precisely Walk it Off, in my IRL planescape game. That has more to do with the style of planescape and my game (getting to places can be an adventure in itself and is often half the adventure) than the ability, though.

All in all it looks really nice.

How does Walk it Off hurt that at all?

Zaydos

2012-09-05, 10:22 AM

How does Walk it Off hurt that at all?

Take the Negative Energy Plane, for example, where one of the dangers is that the plane itself will kill you. It's possible to get around it with spells but those are prone to dispel, and finite durations. Then there's stuff like Baator, or more importantly the Abyss, where there are dangerous environmental hazards which do not fall under the planar trait of the plane and therefore are unaffected by the spells that mainly get around it (Attune Form). In short it takes away a lot of hazards you can put forth on the Outer Planes many of which add to the feel of Planescape that reality is alien and ultimately somewhat dangerous.

devlingreye

2012-09-05, 01:33 PM

I feel my class is missing something or a number of things. Would anyone mind peaching it. so i figure out what it needs.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-05, 05:38 PM

10 Verdant Root abilites, meaning it is now technically finished even if i will be adding more abilities. Please PEACH.

sirpercival

2012-09-05, 08:34 PM

You might actually be better off making a second unlock a swift action, what with quickened spells and a few magic items and such. Doing aggressive things with a move action is dangerous in the action economy.

As I said, it's a cool idea. I might have written it as a non-caster PrC, but that's because I have a soft spot for non-casters.

I've made changes to a number of puzzles and made unlocking a second puzzle in the same round a swift action. Since you can get higher ULs now, I left the UL prereqs instead of level prereqs.

I've also changed it to a noncaster PrC, which was a big change, but definitely makes it more interesting, since you can focus on the puzzle box and not worry about your spells. Would you be willing to look at it again?

Zelkon

2012-09-05, 09:18 PM

Anyone have any ideas on how to create a good way for a fighter or other melee to keep their attacks but still be able to literally pull a spell out of their pocket once in a while and allow a wizard to keep viable spellcasting without actually gaining levels and instead being able to keep that "pulling a spell out of the pocket" thing and be able to also grab a sword out of thin air and swing it proficiently?

sirpercival

2012-09-05, 09:20 PM

MoleMage

2012-09-05, 10:14 PM

I suggest just that. No reason the class features need to be physical objects. Just have them pull the spell out of their pocket, literally. Reach into pocket, spell happens. If you insist, have it be dust they throw that casts the spell or some such.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-05, 10:45 PM

Give them a GP limit and use the price of scrolls for the spells. Limit the spell level by class level, should be good enough for your purposes.

Jeff the Green

2012-09-06, 12:14 AM

Hey, guys, guys! I finally finished the replacement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13767818&postcount=7) for Livewood Daughter! I'd really appreciate some PEACHes if y'all don't mind.

Morph Bark

2012-09-06, 02:27 AM

Hey, guys, guys! I finally finished the replacement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13767818&postcount=7) for Livewood Daughter! I'd really appreciate some PEACHes if y'all don't mind.

I'm loving your quote.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-07, 05:31 PM

Bump for great justice?

Having some 'getting time to work on my stuff' issues with my fluff. Knocking it out slow and steady.

sirpercival

2012-09-08, 09:12 AM

Inspired by this contest, I submit to you: The Prettiest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255174).

MoleMage

2012-09-08, 12:35 PM

Dancer of Blades MK 2 is finished! I added in the fluff this time, too.

Now it's just the one Dancing Weapon (or two for Two-Weapon Fighting...as an option), instead of four. More affordable, and less broken.

Would appreciate some PEACH here. If you'd like me to return PEACH, just note at the beginning or end of your PEACH.

Zaydos, I offer you a free PEACH, since you already checked out the MK 1 for me. Look in the spoiler below.

Entry Requirements: The Skills don't make as much sense to me. It seems to be separate from the theme of the class (I realize they are intended to give a level requirement indirectly, though). However, I find the Feats and Special to be completely logical and reasonable to achieve (you might clarify the saving throw due to the bonus from a cloak, but then I'm a stickler for clarity. I understood what you meant anyway).

Skills and HD:Nothing to mention here, it looks all squared away.

BAB and Saves: Again, good. Building around the Cloak of Resistance, you'd have no option but to have all good saves.

Weapon Proficiencies: No problem here.

Traveler's Cloak: Now we're to the meat of the class. Abilities! I like this one, but it scales oddly. At level one, with the expected Cloak of Resistance +1, you'd have resist 1 all, an almost ignorable amount. But at level ten in this class, when you could reasonably have gotten a Cloak +3, you have 30 resist all, which is a significant amount. Finally, Sonic is usually kept separate from the other four resists, but of course it isn't necessarily overpowered to have it anyway.

Traveler's Resistance:Here is a fairly standard Use/Day ability. It fits the theme of the class and isn't too overly powerful (Luck Domain is available to Clerics at level one and does better than this). It isn't flashy, but then I guess your class isn't supposed to be flashy since its fairly defensive.

Bonus Feats:I feel like these are arbitrarily spaced in the levels, but it's good to round out all three of the feats as you progress in the class. I approve.

Way of Combat:This, like the skill requirements for entry, seems to stick out to the side. I think the ability makes sense, mechanically, but you might try to introduce a reason for it. Also fix the wording; right now it seems as if the unarmed swordsage levels are included with stuff that isn't stacked ("other monk abilities, or").

Evasion and Mettle:In a class full of saving throws, what else could we expect?

Spell Absorption:Now the cloak begins to do different things. I like the way this one works, but shouldn't it also benefit Saving Throws (then again, that might start getting out of hand)? Maybe add a note that a new application replaces a previous, weaker one.

Cloaked Life: I wanted to say the scaling for this ability seems odd again, but I changed my mind. It works the way it is. Add a caveat that if the cloak is the target of a second dispel attempt while the Cloaked Life ability is dispelled, the cloak can be affected and I'm happy.

Iron Body:Whoa, watch where you're throwing that DR/-. Drop it to Cloak's Bonus instead of Cloak's Bonusx2, methinks. For comparison, if someone sticks with the barbarian class for 19 levels, they have DR 5/-. A Dwarven Defender, the class which is theoretically supposed to be the one taking physical hits, compared to the Waywanderer's Saving Throws Galore, only gets the same DR 6/- at level ten. DR 3/- and +3 AC with a Cloak +3 is plenty.

Spell Turning: Instead of having this ability apply x/day, maybe allow it to affect x Spell Levels/day. That would bring it in line with other spell defenses, including the original Spell Turning spell, Rods of Absorption, etc. Right now the Waywanderer, at level 7, assuming Monk 5 before entry, could reasonably turn 12 spells of any level per day (assuming Wis 20, not unreasonable). Compare an Abjurer who prepares nothing but Spell Turning for the same day, of the same level (assume he has some way to gain two bonus 7th level spells, which is less likely than a Wis 20 Monk/Waywanderer, but not impossible), who could be able to cast the spell four times, allowing him to turn at most 40 spell levels, or a mere 8 5th level spells, or fewer of higher level.

Traveler's Fortune: Good here, simple to understand and not too overpowered.

Spell Theft: I like it, but see my thoughts on Spell Reflection, above for the limits per day (obviously if you change one, you have to change the other too, since Spell Theft is based on Spell Reflection).

Soul Cloak: This is good. It frees the character somewhat from their item dependency, but also leaves them a penalty for leaving it behind. Maybe as fluff, require them to wear some kind of cloak, even a tattered blanked, to gain the benefits of the feature; after all these are adventurers who live and die by their cloaks.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-08, 01:26 PM

Dancer of Blades MK 2 is finished! I added in the fluff this time, too.

Now it's just the one Dancing Weapon (or two for Two-Weapon Fighting...as an option), instead of four. More affordable, and less broken.

Would appreciate some PEACH here. If you'd like me to return PEACH, just note at the beginning or end of your PEACH.

Let me take a look...

Okay, Prereqs are pretty easy to meet, +7 BAB and own a dancing weapon, simple, straightforward, and accessible by anyone willing to wait a few levels.

Skills are... a little odd but I can see the reasons behind them.

HD is fine as is, trade some endurance to be able to fight with a sword from a distance, I like it.

Chassis is as expected, good Fort is common among warriors, and the Ref I can see from wielding weapons this way, good BAB is essential for a warrior.

Wpn/Arm Prof is a good addition, boosts some of the classes that enter.

Bonded weapon is not listed on the table, the Table refers to Extended Dance, is that a carry over that was missed? As for the feature itself, it looks good, a total of 10 extra rounds by the end of the class will make it useful in most combats, unless it's an all out war, that should be sufficient

Echoed Blade is a good way to allow the dancer to melee at the same time and would just look awesome on the field. And the ability to let it dance as well is a good one, limiting it to one round makes it a little less useful but for good reason.

Freed Blade, adds a little distance, keeps the weapon close, and gives some bonus options when fighting, looks good, not overpowered, but useful nonetheless.

Forced Opening is a good option for a Dancer, makes sense thematically and has good combat effects if you work as part of a larger unit, esspecially if you have a rogue or similar class in the party

Living weapon is an interesting ability and definitely a good capstone, it removes the normal limitations of the dancing quality and directly upgrades it, which is essentially what the class is about.

Dancing Weapon Tricks:
Two Weapon Dancing, keyed towards the Ranger, obviously, but also good for a fighter or TWFing rogue, good option overall if you can afford it. Only question is if Echoed Blade works on both simultaneously

Weapon Call is a perfect way to give back actions to the dancer, very good overall option for them regardless of how they actually fight.

Dancing (Maneuver) Tricks: Good for fighters with a specific fighting style or for anyone else with the feats, and a good way to use them while still being able to attack more directly.

Extra Bond seems like a more general version of Two Weapon Dancing. A better option for more focused single weapon fighters

Dancing Defense is a good choice for lightly armored warriors and rogues, I'd take it myself since I like my defenses. How would this interact with Two Weapon Defense and Two Weapon Dancing?

Dancing Reflexes has such a good image to it in my head, and the feat it provides is useful.
The Playing a Dancer of Blades part provides good advice for anyone that wants to take the class, which is always nice

Overall, I think it's well balanced and nicely done.
I would like to request a PEACH of my class, as I'm unsure how good it is or if i missed anything in the past few overlooks of it. I'm esspecially worried about one of the Goodberry Roots abilities (Grim Harvest) because it might be too powerful even if it is a kill switch if used for higher level stuff.

Golden-Esque

2012-09-08, 06:19 PM

I'll P.E.A.C.H. what I can.

Be warned that I am incredibly harsh and I am putting all of my opinions down here; grammar, style, mechanics, I'm looking at everything.

First Class, Wielder of the Dimensional Gallery.

First, I'm kind of burnt out of the X of Y Z formula that many people use when naming prestige classes. Its a little bit too safe of a naming convention for my taste. I'm also not crazy about the description being a narrative. It doesn't tell me much about the class itself and it also makes me think that the class is military-focused, which may or may not be the case.

The Entry Requirements are too lax. As a general rule of thumb, Prestige Classes should require a minimum of 5th level to qualify for. This class can be easily entered by 3rd level. Basing your entry requirements solely upon the acquisition of a magic item is not a good idea. I would either up the Base Attack Bonus requirement, throw in some more feats, or add some skill rank prerequisites. Also, the class currently does not possess Class Skills.

Wait, the narrative goes into the actual description of the game mechanics? No. No way. Absolutely not. You have plenty of other places to be flavorful with the Prestige Class. When I sit down to read about the Prestige Class's abilities, I do not want to have to shift through your narrative to do so. It is not good design by any means.

Clearly not finished.

Rating 0 / 10. The class is too caught up in its own narrative voice to take seriously.

Second Class, Walkers of the Endless Way.
You could improve a lot on the flow of your writing. Overused phrases like "a lot of people" should be dropped in favor of something new. The use of parenthesis (like this) is annoying (at best) and only servers to (severely) interrupt the flow of your writing. Get rid of them. The class has several places where it asks questions, such as "Perhaps they ...." Don't try to promote ideas in your reader's head. Not everyone is as skilled at homebrewing as the people you're writing among. You need to have ideas to give; don't ask me for my own or I'd have written your product myself.

All of your and/or requirements are jarring at best because of and/or layout you are currently using. This system makes figuring out your class's prerequisites a chore because there are so many ways to qualify for the class. An easier way to do this would be to include several special entries that say, "You must meet one of the following prerequisites: A, B, C, or D." You also don't appear to be using colons and semi-colons correctly; in the most general of terms, use colons to denote a pause prior to a list and a semi-colon when combining two sentences together. Another example is in your Weapons Proficiency section; something like "Walkers of the Endless way are proficient with special attacks received from taking levels in this prestige class but otherwise gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies." is much clearer and to the point than, "Walkers of the Endless Way gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies. They are, however, considered proficient with any special attacks they gain from this class."

Your ability, Seven League Stride, makes no sense. In its opening line, the flavor text says that you are immune to fatigue, but when you actually read the mechanics, the ability states you are immune to exhaustion but not fatigue. This doesn't make sense from a game mechanics point of view, because exhaustion is a more severe form of fatigue. What I assume you are trying to say is that you never become exhausted from movement actions such as forced marches or hustling. Also, I loathe percentage-based bonuses, especially this one. What if I somehow manage to get levels of Monk to the point where I have a +20 feet bonus as well as my +30 enhancement bonus from my boots of striding and springing? That's a total of a +50 bonus, which rounds down to 25 feet. That's ridiculous. Whether or not such a combination actually exists, I don't know, but its poor wording and design that could potentially allow for massive rules abuse.

Your Springing Dodge footwork tells me that I need to make a jump check, but it doesn't tell me what that check is for. It just references "movement." So is it a jump to move horizontally? Vertically? Both? I think this is meant to be an escape mechanic, in which case it is not very well described.

I don't think the Once per Encounter mechanic works very well here. That is a very 4th Edition mechanic and if I recall correctly, the Martial Maneuver system never uses the phrase "once per encounter" either. Your footworks would work better if you explain that your footworks are refreshed (or whatever term Martial Maneuvers use, its been too long) whenever your martial maneuvers are, or something similar. Tie it to a mechanic you're already using anyway. Actually, you could even say, "footworks function as martial maneuvers, except they do not count against your readied maneuvers" and then just add tags like Agile Charge (strike) and the like.

Why does this class only go to 7th level, anyway? That seems kind of lazy, to be honest. Also, your capstone ability is pretty terrible. Your boots can never be destroyed? So what? Immune to aging effects? News flash; there ARE no aging effects in 3rd Edition unless you use 3PP. I would expand this to a normal 10-Level class and fix the BaB and save progression.

Rating: 5/10. Wasn't bad, but poor mechanics and bad editing made it a chore to read.

That's all for now. I'll keep going down the list later.

MoleMage

2012-09-08, 06:35 PM

*snip*

Thanks. Corrected the table, that was a carryover error.

Now for the Verdant.

I don't have the goodberry bracelet stats handy, but as I understand it it gives X berries per day which feed the eater and heal 1 point of damage? This will be my operating assumption.

Requirements: The non-evil alignment doesn't really make sense for a nature-themed class. Any Neutral would make more sense, but really I don't see why there's an alignment restriction at all. Skills and Special requirements are logical and reasonable.

Skills, HD, BAB, Saves, and Proficiencies:Use Rope and Know (Arcana) seem kinda off-topic. I can get the vines-ropes connection kinda, but the Verdant deals in nature magic, which is already included under Know (Nature).
HD and BAB are in keeping with the expected Druid entry style, and the new restriction on metal armor makes sense for a nature caster. Keep in mind that this will hurt the ranger wishing to become verdant more than the druid.

Goodberry Roots:Extends the use of the base item without adding anything new at first level. A good way to start with the class. For the individual options taken at each level, three things: first, that's a lot of options to have at the end. Instead you might consider first and every even or every odd level. The only prestige class I can think of that gets an option at every level for ten levels is Horizon Walker, and that's all of its class features.
Second, I'm going to skip those options which I find to be satisfactory (minus the requested attention to Grim Harvest), in the interest of saving space. If it isn't mentioned here, I found nothing particularly wrong with it.
Third, you might want to clarify whenever you say "expends a berry" whether that means just the berry used, or the berry used and an additional berry. You might try the phrasing "Causes a berry eaten" or "Instead of its normal effects".

Nature Gift:1d6+1+Con is silly. Just make it 1d6+Con, plus 1d6+Con more for every odd numbered level. You lose out on 5 damage, yes, but it makes everything run smoother. Clarify what the splash damage is (1? Con? Full damage of the bomb?)

Wild Gift: Make it +1 to increase the bonus/add a second bonus and +1 to increase the duration. That way they have the option of increasing the duration of an unupgraded Wild Gift. Consider a different name to further separate it from Nature Gift.

Heartwood Resilience: Optional note: your class brings a lot of Fae traits to the character. Perhaps Cold Iron instead of Magic or Adamantine?

Verdant Armory: Just make it all natural attacks, it won't be overpowered that way. And it will benefit Vines.

Harvest: Move this above Harvest Potion in the order, so that the prereq shows up before the prereq-ee. Clarify what "enough damage" is.

Thorns: I like it, but maybe it should require Goodberry Armor?

Grim Harvest: That's 25 Berries to cast a level 5 spell, the highest level that doesn't risk con burn. You're losing 125 HP to cast the likes of Call Lightning Storm or Wall of Fire. I wouldn't take this ability unless I was gestalted with Barbarian and had a 22 or higher Con, myself. Maybe tone down the berry cost or backlash damage, or both, but limit it to Druid Spells. As it stands, the most powerful spell that doesn't require Con Damage is probably Slay Living or Dominate Person, and those are as mentioned 125 HP cost. A level 11 Cleric/Wizard could do those at no cost, more often than the Ardent's abilities would possibly allow.

Ironwood Slam: Do these function as Two-Weapon Fighting for the purposes of iterative attacks? Does each of the Primary Slam Attacks get a Full Attack routine equal to the highest attack routine? Clarify how making full attacks works more explicitly.

Class Advancement: Make sure it specifies a single base class. This is an odd thing, and not in keeping with most prestige classes (almost always it's some specific class feature, like spellcasting or sneak attack; exceptions generally are for monk-centric PrC), but if you want to have it, it definitely needs the limits of single and base class.

Oak Body:Lovely. This is the sort of thing I look for as you Turn into a tree. The enhancement bonus is a nice balancing touch.

Ironwood Resilience: Too much juice. I cite again the Dwarven Defender, who only reaches DR 6/-, and the Barbarian who only reaches 5/-. Cut it to 2 and five, or make it DR/Slashing (or even Cold Iron) and you're set.

Regrowth: A nice ability that doesn't overwhelm any offense (except for Ironwood Resilience, mentioned above.

Lord of the Orchard: What benefits does turning into a plant give? Does the Verdant gain the augmented subtype of their original type? In short, list here what changes and what stays the same as they become plant type. You don't have to mention things like Hold Person, but you should address sneak attack, poison, mind-affecting, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, stunned, and critical hits, all of which the plant type is normally immune to (and which would break a character in a defensive sense if he was immune to all of those things). Maybe make them immune to Sneak Attacks, Poison, and Sleep (both magical and otherwise), but leave them subject to Polymorph, Mind-affecting, critical hits, and stunning. Or pick your own choices. Point is they shouldn't get all of that benefit.

Overall, a good start. Make your wording and mechanics consistent within the class, and of course finish up the sections you have "under construction" signs over. Fluff isn't really my critiquing forte, but you might give some more specific examples, and add a little more detail to places or people.

Golden-Esque

2012-09-08, 08:00 PM

More Reviews.

Third Class, Spheriod Oddity
I like the name; its different. You got me hooked in the opening description. Drop the bold, however. Its distracting and makes it painfully clear that you're going for a meme. I might drop the meme as well, actually. I don't like the description under Prerequisites; it feels like its talking down to the reader. You are the first person I've seen to cite anything, so kudos to you!

You fall into the same trap that Weilder of the Dimensional Galley does. Your writing style is far too narrative. Don't use phrases like, "You get attached. Like, REALLY attached." I would never print that in a book. Use phrases like, "You become enthralled by the mysteries of your aberrant sphere, its scintillating light calling you ever closer to the Far Realms." That's much more interesting to read. You also use too much tongue in cheek for my tastes. Its not a good thing; players want options they can seriously consider. Why should they consider you when you won't take yourself seriously? That's why ErrantX usually disqualifies people who write joke Prestige Classes. As much as I like your idea and opening, I would disqualify you for the silliness if I were in his shoes.

Give specific citations. Mark your creatures with things like daggers (†) and add a like saying "creatures or templates marked with a dagger ( † ) can be found in Wizard's of the Coast's Monster Manual 5, 3.5 Edition. You do not want to confuse those you are trying to write for and if most people don't know where to look for something, they're not going to look. Your writing also suffers from comma syndrome; make your sentences clear and to the point. Don't constantly weigh them down with an endless deluge of commas and semicolons. Abbreviating things (such as SLA for spell-like ability) makes you look lazy and if you publish the product, you run the risk of someone not knowing all of the wonderful abbreviations that have a tendency to spawn among a 'fandom'. Also, Realsian is not a real word. Do not pretend it is. It sounds terrible.

For your capstone, you never describe what the creature's horrific form does or looks like. If you're going to make me obscure it with disguise self, I should at least get some benefits. As written, this is what the ability says, "You're ugly, so put this magical bag on your head forever."

Rating: 5 / 10. It was interesting at first, but the lame puns and the tongue-in-cheek writing combined with an average class mechanically leads to an overall below-average rating. I wish you had kept with the strong introduction you had, before you got all silly.

Fourth Class, Enigmatician
Cool name. Description is short, sweet, and to the point. I like it. Nice to see a citation for your new feat. If you are required to craft a wondrous item in order to take levels in this class, then why isn't Craft Wondrous Item a prerequisite? Your description of the puzzle box itself could use some cleaning up; you repeat yourself several times in the first paragraph alone. Since the puzzle box IS a wondrous item, why do you need the line, "just like a wondrous item."? That is redundant. The rules regarding the puzzle box are not written well; its like trying to solve a puzzle to understand them! You need to clean this up or you are not going to win, because no one will know what the hells your class does.

Rating: 4/10. This seems like a cool class and I want to like it, but your lack of clear, concise wording makes it difficult to understand and as such I can't enjoy it.

Jeff the Green

2012-09-09, 12:35 AM

Dancer of Blades
Let's see...

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Special: Must own a Dancing Weapon which they are proficient with

Okay, but you might consider adding clause specifying what happens if/when they sell or lose all their dancing weapons.

Bonded Weapon: A Dancer of Blades draws a bond to a specific Dancing Weapon. When he activates this weapon's Dancing property, the effect lasts for 2 additional rounds per Dancer of Blades level.

A Dancer of Blades can bond to a new Dancing Weapon by practicing with the new weapon over the course of a full week. During this time, he must forgo the use of any other weapon.

First, can you be bound to more than one dancing weapon at a time? If not you need to say so. Also, what does it mean, exactly, to "forgo the use of any other weapon"?

Echoed Blade: Whenever a Dancer of Blades activates a Bonded Dancing Weapon, the memories of the weapon spring into his hand. He may as part of the activation gain a similar, identical weapon which appears faint or ghostlike, lasting as long as his. Echoed Blades sent to Dance last only for one round, and do not benefit from any feature or ability which would extend that effect. This weapon does not have the ability to hit ethereal creatures any better than the base weapon, despite its appearance.

If his Bonded Weapon is Dancing and the Dancer's hands are free, he can create an Echoed Blade as a Swift Action.

"lasting as long as his" what? Confused. Also, this might be written a bit clearer in general. Something like:

So long as the dancer's bonded weapon is dancing and his hands are free, he can cause an echoed blade to appear as a swift action. An echoed blade is identical in all respects to his bonded weapon except that it can only dance for one round (this duration cannot be extended by any means), and appears faint or ghost like. The echoed blade lasts as long as his bonded blade continues to dance.

Freed Blade: Dancers of Blades are more attuned to the magics that allow their Bonded Dancing Weapons to function. Their Bonded Dancing Weapons can operate from squares up to five feet per class level away from the Dancer. This does not allow Dancing Weapons to threaten, even the square they're dancing in.

A Dancers of Blade's Dancing Weapon maintains its orientation to the Dancers of Blades, moving an equivalent amount whenever he moves. As a swift action, the Dancer of Blades can cause his weapon to adjust by up to five feet per Dancer of Blades level. A Bonded Weapon cannot make a full attack in the same turn in which it moves, either as it follows the Dancer or as the Dancer moves it.

Needs to be clarified.

Forced Opening:
As a Full Round Action, the Dancer of Blades and his Bonded Weapon may each make a single melee attack against the same target. If both attacks hit, the target provokes an attack of opportunity from anyone threatening it, and is considered Flat-footed for any such attacks made.

Looks good.

Living Weapon:
The Bonded Weapon takes on a semblance of life, allowing it to act almost completely independently. The Dancing Ability for a Bonded Weapon no longer ends until the Dancer of Blades chooses to end it. Furthermore, the Bonded Weapon threatens any square it can strike (including its own), and can flank. Bonded Weapons never gain precision damage such as Sneak Attacks, but they can allow allies to by flanking.
The Dancer of Blades and his Bonded Weapons share attacks of opportunity per round. They gain an additional attack of opportunity per round by having this ability.

So, this is really cool, but you need to clarify what "sharing attacks of opportunity per round" means.

Dancing Weapon Tricks
Two Weapon Dancing:
Your Bonded Weapon ability can now apply to a one-handed and a light off-hand weapon, provided both have the Dancing property. The Dancer may activate both weapons in a Bonded Weapon pair using the same action, and his Echoed Blade ability applies to both weapons in the bonded pair. These weapons all gain the benefit of any Two-Weapon Fighting feats you may have.

Weapon Call:
A Dancer with this ability may activate his Dancing Weapons as Move Action. This ability may be taken twice. The second time it is taken, the Dancer may activate Dancing Weapons as a Swift Action.

Dancing Trip:
Requires: Improved Trip
Your Bonded Weapon may forgo its attacks for a round to give you a +4 bonus to trip attempts against a target it is capable of striking. Alternately, your Bonded Weapon may make trip attempts, and gains the benefits of any feats you have that improve trip attempts.
If a Dancing Weapon would be tripped as a consequence of failing a trip attempt, it immediately stops dancing.

Dancing Disarm
Requires: Improved Disarm
As Dancing Trip, but applies to Disarm attempts.

Dancing Sunder
Requires: Improved Sunder
As Dancing Trip, but applies to Sunder attempts.

Extra Bond
A Dancer of Blades with this trick may bond to an additional Dancing Weapon. He may only have one active Bonded Weapon Dancing at any time, but can change between them with no need to go through the week-long bonding process.
This ability can be taken multiple times. It allows the Dancer to have one additional weapon for each time it is taken.

Dancing Defense
Whenever the Dancer of Blades is armed and his Bonded Weapon is dancing in his square, he gains a Deflection Bonus to his Armor Class equal to the Weapon's Enhancement Bonus, and he cannot be flanked.

Dancing Reflexes
The Dancer of Blades gains the Combat Reflexes feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. He gains additional Attacks of Opportunity each round equal to the Enhancement Bonus of his Bonded Weapon, so long as the weapon is wielded or Dancing.

These are not all that balanced against each other. I can't see any reason not to go with Dancing Reflexes and TWD or Dancing Trip. Also, check the disarm, trip, and sunder rules; you don't make disarm, trip, or sunder checks, you make opposed attack rolls, a touch attack and opposed Str/Dex rolls, or opposed attack rolls and a damage roll. As written DT, DS, and DD either don't work or do more than you probably intend.

In General:
I like it, but the wording needs to be cleaned up. In general, class and item names shouldn't be capitalized unless they're in a heading.

I'd appreciate a returned PEACH, if you don't mind. :smallbiggrin: More coming soon...

sirpercival

2012-09-09, 05:25 AM

More Reviews.
Fourth Class, Enigmatician Thank you!

Cool name. Description is short, sweet, and to the point. I like it. Nice to see a citation for your new feat. If you are required to craft a wondrous item in order to take levels in this class, then why isn't Craft Wondrous Item a prerequisite? Because originally this was a spellcasting class, and then I changed it to a noncaster class. I think I didn't do a good enough job cleaning up after the conversion, honestly...

Your description of the puzzle box itself could use some cleaning up; you repeat yourself several times in the first paragraph alone. Since the puzzle box IS a wondrous item, why do you need the line, "just like a wondrous item."? That is redundant. The rules regarding the puzzle box are not written well; its like trying to solve a puzzle to understand them! You need to clean this up or you are not going to win, because no one will know what the hells your class does. Yes, I've been struggling with the confusing wording. I'll try a ground-up rewrite and see if that helps.

Rating: 4/10. This seems like a cool class and I want to like it, but your lack of clear, concise wording makes it difficult to understand and as such I can't enjoy it.[/spoiler] I'm actually glad you had this reaction -- that means that if I can fix the known wording problem, I'll hopefully have a pretty good product!

sirpercival

2012-09-09, 12:34 PM

Double bubble double post!

I've revamped the wording for the Puzzle Box stuff, I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could take a look and see if it's any more intuitive.

Xallace

2012-09-09, 03:09 PM

Well it's been slow going since classes started but I'm getting closer to being done. Starting to run out of steam though, a little worried the finished product won't be as good as I hoped.

Maybe after the contest I'll come back and rework it again.

On the interim, I expect to have time to critique (some of?) the other classes this week!

bindin garoth

2012-09-09, 08:26 PM

I've started re-working the class, which should be done in a few days.

hierophant

2012-09-09, 10:25 PM

So the framework for my Monadic Templar is up! (conveniently bumping the contest back to page 1).
Here's hoping I can finish it quicker than last time.

MoleMage

2012-09-10, 12:45 AM

I haven't forgotten you Jeff. I'll have PEACH up sometime tomorrow hopefully.

sirpercival

2012-09-10, 12:17 PM

I'm going to try and PEACH all of the entries, starting from the top.

For my own entry, I added a Puzzle Box as Treasure section; I'd love comments on that and on the clarity rewrite of the Puzzle Box rules.

DIMENSIONAL WEAPONEER Here we go!

Cool pic.

"Do not attempt to put a Portable Hole inside the Glove of Storing. If you do............. Stuff happens. Just like when you mix a bag of holding and a portable hole. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6401889&postcount=15)" Instructional booklet that comes with the Glove of Storing Lol. By RAW it's only a Portable Hole + Bag of Holding that causes any interactions, but this is cute.

{Opening Text} Awesome. I love the tone that this takes, reminds me a little bit of Repo Dog (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2926.0).

Dimensional Weaponeers usually come from fighters, warblades, and other martially inclined classes. Rarely, however, a spellcaster, such as a wizard, will enter, however it usually takes them longer to meet the requirements for the class. Too many "howevers" and too many commas to read smoothly... :( Also, I thought the name was Wielder of the Dimensional Gallery, not Dimensional Weaponeer (I like the former better). If you want something shorter, just abbreviate to Wielder. EDIT: I see where the confusion was. Nevermind.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS Should specify 8 ranks for Tumble. "Special" entry could use some proofreading. Seems like Ranger, or full BAB with martial study (desert wind), are the only 6th-level entries here. Could do 8th-level with a 3/4 BAB class. By the way, what's with Quick Draw? Feat tax? You don't build on it at all, and using the Glove is already a free action.

Class Skills Typo in Perform. Interesting mix of skills -- why Perform at all? I guess I need to read the class to get a sense of what it's like ;)

Game Rule Info d8 hit die, 3/4 BAB, good Ref saves. Kind of like a less squishy rogue, maybe? No dead levels is good. 5/10 class feature progression means this isn't as difficult of a choice as some other PrCs, but it also means that this doesn't define a character concept as much as other PrCs might.

Weapon Proficiencies: Dimensional Weaponeers gain proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, and an exotic weapon of their choice. That's kinda cool -- could help some gish builds with a dip, and the extra exotic weapon prof is fun.

And now we get to the meat!

Dimensional Gallery(Su): At level 1, a Dimensional Weaponeer becomes bonded with a Glove of Storing, and learns how to unlock it's true power. As long as they possess any Glove of Storing, they may store a number of weapons equal to 2 + their class levels. Only weapons? What if they want to store other stuff, and/or are already doing so?

Dimensional Enhancement(Su): Because of the number of weapons a Dimensional Weaponeer usually carries, they have found a way to keep their weapons enhanced. At level 1, all weapons they draw from their Dimensional Galley gain a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls for the remainder of the encounter. This enhancement bonus disappears 1 round after the weapon leaves the Dimensional Weaponeer's hands. This bonus also increases by +1 every odd level. Hmm... not as interesting. Though not terrible. What about instead that they can apply the enchantments of a weapon that they have inside to other weapons they produce? That way they pay for 1 weapon (and don't break WBL), but aren't limited by having to maintain 92854 magical weapons.

Custom Weapons: The weapons used by a Dimensional Weaponeer are truly unique. At level 1, whenever a Dimensional Weaponeer draws a weapon from their Dimensional Galley, they gain one of the abilities below. At levels 4, 7, and 10, they may chose an additional ability from the list below. All special abilities last for the remainder of the encounter, and disappear 1 round after leaving your hands, provided you don't pick it up again within that time frame. Unless stated otherwise, an ability can only be chosen once. Oh, I see... interesting. How does this and the above ability interact with weapons that are already magical? Also, the wording is unclear. Do you learn individual abilities that you can apply to any weapon, or do you have access to all the abilities, and you can apply multiple abilities to a given weapon when you produce it?

Note: Wands and Special Abilities Wands may be used with the special abilities below, however, the spell contained in the wand must deal damage, and either have a range of touch or ranged touch, or create a weapon that can use the special abilities below. All other wands cannot benefit from the abilities below. Well now... this is the coolest thing yet! This may be the best use of this class -- a wandificer could enter at level 8 with good feat choices, and probably clean up. Rather than talking about "range of touch or ranged touch", I might say "require an attack roll".

-Thown: The weapon gains the Throwing and Returning qualities. How does throwing a wand work?

-Mystic Ammo: This weapon automatically generates ammo when being fired. Weapons that needed to be reloaded do not have to be reloaded. Does this let a wand fire without spending charges? What if you use feats and things that cost more than one charge?

-Bleeding Attack: This effect only works for piercing and slashing weapons. A foe hit with an attack from this weapon bleeds from their wound, suffering an additional amount of damage equal to your base weapon damage plus your class levels one round after being hit by an attack. A foe may only suffer this damage once per round. What about a wand with a spell that does piercing or slashing damage? Does the damage of the spell count as the base damage of the weapon?

-Enormous Strength: These weapons seem to be heaver at their tips. These weapons deal 2x your strength modifier damage for weapons wielded in one hand, and 2.5 times your strength modifier damage for weapons wielded in both hands. How does it affect wands?

-Forced Shot: Ranged weapons with this ability are easier to wield for those with strength, and use your Strength modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier for attack rolls. Does this apply to a wand with a ranged attack roll?

-Burst: Weapons with this ability are temporarily supercharged with power. On the round that a weapon with this ability is drawn from the Dimensional Gallery, it deals an additional number of d6's worth of damage equal to 1 plus 1/2 of your class levels. However, weapons with this ability disappear as quickly as they come, and are returned to your Dimensional Gallery at the end of your turn. Furthermore, they can not be drawn for the remainder of the encounter. What's the damage type?

-Weapon Growth: Weapons with this special ability appear larger than usual. A weapon with this ability is treated as being one size category larger for the purposes of damage only. This may be chosen multiple times, to a maximum of Colossal size. How does this affect wands?

-Sharpened: This ability can only affect piercing and slashing weapons. Weapons with this ability have their critical threat range increased by 2. This stacks with other abilities that increase critical threat ranges, however, this ability is only applied after all other abilities are applied. Does this affect spells from wands? Should be "piercing or slashing weapons" so it isn't restricted to weapons which deal both types of damage.

-Heavy: This ability only affects bludgeoning weapons.Weapons with this ability have their critical threat range increased by 2. This stacks with other abilities that increase critical threat ranges, however, this ability is only applied after all other abilities are applied. Does this affect spells from wands?

-Shockwave: This ability only affects melee weapons. Weapons with this ability are infused with arcane energies, releasing shockwaves with every swing. Treat the weapon as having +5ft reach, on your turn only. The reach increases by 5ft for every three class levels you possess. How does this affect wands?

-Line Shot: This ability only affects ranged weapons. Weapons with this ability extend 10ft past your target, hitting any foe behind your target. You the same attack roll and damage rolls you used against the original target, although no precision damage can be applied to the roll. "You use the same attack roll". Precision damage applies to the original attack, right?

-Burst Shot: This ability only affects ranged weapons.Weapons with this ability allow your weapons to cause small bursts when they hit. Instead of rolling an attack roll, target a 10ft burst area. All within the area take damage as if hit by your weapon, minus any precision damage you may of done. They are entitled to a reflex save for half, with a DC equal to 10 + your class levels + the ability modifier you would normally use for the attack roll with ranged weapons. "may have done".

-Forcing Blows: Weapons with this ability have a great deal of force behind their attacks. All foes hit with attacks from this weapon must succeed on a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + Class levels + Your Strength Modifier) or be pushed back 10ft. If this would cause a foe to hit a wall, they suffer an additional amount of damage equal to your Strength modifier. Why not make it a straight-up bull rush effect?

-Shielding Weapons: Weapons with this ability are abnormally wide, allowing them to be used to defend their master. These weapons give their master a shield bonus equal to their enhancement bonus. How does this affect wands?

-Supercharged: This ability only affects wands, as noted above. Wands with this ability only use a charge for every two spells cast from it. If a spell from a wand is used only once during the encounter, however, a charge is still used. I feel like there's a better way to word this... using a supercharged wand costs half as many charges (minimum 1)?

Exotic Weaponry(Ex): Those who use the Dimensional Gallery learn to use many weapons. They may either become proficient with one exotic weapon of their choice, or gain the ability to take 10 on UMD checks with wands only. This is in addition to the exotic weapon prof you granted at level 1? The take 10 on wand things is flat-out superior.

Advancement(Ex): Dimensional Weaponeers come from all different backgrounds, and don't forget their previous abilities. Chose one of the abilities below. Starting at level 2, and every even level thereafter, treat the level as a level of their previous class for advancing that feature. Exactly what is advanced is shown to the right of the table. Is this in addition to the class feature advancement on the class table? If not (if this is just explaining it), then get rid of that column on the class table. Also, rather than having it advance at even levels, just say that you add half your levels in this class (rounded down) to your levels in the granting classes for these abilities. Much cleaner that way. I will say that I really appreciate the fact that you spelled out exactly how this works, since the Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster version is just ambiguous as hell. I love that you included spellshaping; how does this work for other homebrew classes/subsystems? DM's discretion?

Feat of Weapons(Ex): Dimensional Weaponeers have learned little tricks to making the most of their weapons. Whenever you draw a weapon from your dimensional gallery, choose one of the columns below. You benefit from the feats in that column as long as you wield that weapon. You do not need to meet a feat's prerequisites to gain it's benefits. The name of the column is what type of weapon it is normally used for, although it does not have to be used that with particular weapon(s). These feats do not count towards the prerequisites of other feats or classes. In addition, you can only benefit from one of these columns at a time, even if you have more than one weapon out. This ability improves at levels 6 and 9, giving you more feats to use with your weapons.

{table=head]Level|Two weapons|Two-handed|Ranged|One-handed|Sword and Shield|Wands

3rd|Two-Weapon Fighting|Power Attack|Precise Shot|Spring Attack|Shield Specialization|Reckless Wand Wielder

6th|Improved Two-Weapon Fighting|Cleave|Rapid Shot|Bounding Assault|Improved Shield Bash|Wand Mastery

9th|Greater Two-Weapon Fighting|Greater Cleave|Manyshot|Rapid Blitz|Agile Shield Fighter|Double Wand Wielder
[/table]
The way this is worded is a little misleading. I would change "Feats" to singular in the base ability description to make it clear that you only start with one. The Power Attack chain is really much worse than the rest.

Teachings of the Weapons(Ex & Su): By this level, Dimensional Weaponeers have learned to use their Dimensional Gallery to great effectiveness. However, at level 5, they have learned to combine their previous abilities with their Dimensional Gallery, allowing them even more versatility! Chose one of the abilities below, as long as you previously possessed the class ability listed. An ability may be chosen, even if it was not the same ability chosen above to advance. However, once chosen, the choice cannot be changed. I think you need to clean up this wording a bit, it's kind of confusing. Are there daily or per-encounter limits on this?

Soulbinding(Su): All weapons drawn from the Dimensional Gallery are empowered by the Void, giving them the Ghost Touch ability. Furthermore, as they draw a weapon from their Dimensional Galley, they may select one Vestige that they have not bound for the day. Once they've selected it, what happens? Also, what does the Void have to do with pact magic?

Spellcasting(Su): I guess it's time for them caster folk to get some love. All weapons they draw benefit from the spell storing special ability. Furthermore, if they sacrifice a spell who's level is at least half (rounded up) of the spell they want to store in the weapon, they can do so as part of the same action of drawing the weapon from the glove! Pretty handy, or so I've been told! Might run outta spells though, I've seen it happen. This is the first place where the flavor has crept into the ability descriptions. :smallfrown: Also, a non-spellcaster should absolutely pick this one, spellstoring weapons are awesome.

Incarnium(Su): For those with the potential of Incarnium, they get a pretty good ability. Basically they can reshape any one of their soulmelds into a copy of their weapon when they draw it from the dimensional gallery! Now of course, they lose the benefits of that soulmeld. The copy weapon stays floating right besides you and attacks when you do, although it doesn't get any of the abilities the weapon it copied has, and it seems to only be able to attack once a round at most. But it does get the normal enhancement bonus, and can increase it by +1 for each essentia invested in it, even past the normal pre-epic limit of +5! Use you Charisma modifier for it's attack and damage rolls too. Typo: "incarnum", only one i. So... this makes a Spiritual Weapon out of whatever you choose, in addition to your normal weapon? What kind of action to control the copy? This is also kind of confusing.

Mysteries(Su): 'Em sneaky casters. They get a really good trick with this. As they draw their weapon(s), they may sacrifice any mystery they know to gain a number of "shadow charges" equal to 1 + it's level. As a free action when they attack, they may sacrifice one of these charges to make the attack with their shadow only! The targets often so surprised, it's Flat-Footed! Furthermore, the attack deals an additional amount of damage equal to the mystery's level. What does the shadow's attack actually do? Does it take the weapon out of their hand, or does it attack with a shadow copy? Does the copy work the same as the normal weapon?

Aura(Ex or Su): These guys are the leaders of the bunch. Any weapon they draw seems to radiate warmth and inspire their allies! All allies affected by one of their aura(s) gains one special ability of the weapon they are currently carrying. How's that for buffing you? Oh, and their aura gains a +1 bonus. Does the ally gain the ability, or the ally's weapon? And, the bonus granted by the aura increases by +1. The aura itself is not an entity to which a bonus can be applied.

Bardic Music(Su): These fools seem to think it's ok to play music on the battlefield! It's simply not safe! So they figured out that whenever they start up that music of theirs, they can have their weapon (as long as it's from the dimensional gallery) sing it instead (or play it). Now unfortunately, a weapon can only carry it on for about 5 rounds you see, but it's still useful none the less. Just give the weapon the Harmonizing ability for 5 rounds. Less explanation, because there's already something that does this.

Breath Attack(Su): Don't get close to these guys! Might burn yah. Anyway, these guys enjoy a special resonance with their weapon and their breath weapon. Whenever they make an attack with a weapon from their dimensional gallery, a small burst of energy is emitted from themselves! It's of the same type as their breath weapon, and deals 1 point of damage for every dice of damage their breath weapon does! Now of course it's small, only affecting all within 5ft of them, and don't forget some are especially good at evading, getting a Reflex save for half damage. I think it's technically a breath "weapon". This is really, really minor damage. Make it a d4 and it might be worth taking. At the very least, get rid of the Ref save...

Truenaming(Su) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961): Well aren't these guys here fancy? With their fancy words that cause neat effects! Well the weapons these guys possess seem to ring with power when he's speaking gibberish, adding to the effect. He gets a +2 bonus to all Truespeech skill checks. Furthermore, once every 5 rounds, he can say some more gibberish (the truename of their weapon) to increase it potency. It's next attack deals an additional amount of damage equal to the truespeach check. What kind of action to do the damage increase?

Spellshaping(Su) (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=64.0): These guys are pretty different. Seem to be like an arcane version of the martial disciplines, but anyways some of them learn about the dimensional gallery too. Those that do gain the ability to use the Spellshape Channeling class feature, as a Spellshape Champion. But furthermore, they can use the spellshape channel on every attack they make in one turn, rather than just one. They also don't face the usual restriction of only being able to use the spellshape channel with melee attacks, they can throw or shot things with it too! Furthermore, these spellshape channelings of theirs is far more potent than normal; they use the damage the spellshape attack would normally do or the weapons damage, whichever is higher. Regardless, they still benefit from the special abilities and enhancement bonuses normal weapons get, and they deal an additional one dice of damage to boot when they channel a spellshape attack! What about a Spellshape Champion straight up? They don't get anything special from this?

Maneuvers(Ex): These guys here claim to be the masters of all different kinds of weapons! Bah! I'd like to see them take me on! Anyways, these guys have figured out how to use their abilities with any weapon, so any weapon drawn from their dimensional gallery is treated as if it was a discipline weapon for all of the schools they possess maneuvers in. Furthermore, the weapon gains the Martial Discipline special ability, of one school of their choosing. Finally, once per encounter, they get this ability to unleash an assault on their foes, and use 2 strike maneuvers as a full-round action. Each strike, however, must have an initiating time of a standard action or less. What'd you expect, to be able to initiate two super long strikes at the same time? Fool! You already got enough abilities, now get outta here! What if it already has that ability?

Improved Unarmed Strike(Ex): Why are these guys here? Aren't you suppose to only attack with you fist, knee, and stuff like that? Anyways, these guys have figured out how to treat their weapons as if they were unarmed strikes, gaining all the benefits their unarmed strikes do. Yup, that includes the damage boost. Furthermore, those who have spent time in a monastery and learned to strike rapidly (Read: Flurry of Blows) can do so with any weapon drawn from their dimensional gallery. Oh, and their weapons gain the collision special property, as if they didn't do enough damage. The feat?

Combat Style(Su): Now, here's a person I can understand! People who are trained in this are usually obsessed with one particular type of weapon, to the point where it's all they carry. For every two weapons they carry that is same as what they currently have, they get a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls. Furthermore, if any of the weapons they possess has a special ability or unique ability (such as the ability to automatically generate ammo), you may grant it to the weapon you currently are wielding, as long as that weapon is currently in you dimensional gallery. What order are these in? Maybe make them alphabetical? Also, this is really swingy. You could either get minimal benefit (if you're dual-wielding), or ridiculous benefit (if you're carrying 234958760 shurikens).

Rage(Ex): You ever met someone who got angry at the slightest thing, and started destroying stuff? Yeah, these guys are about ten times worse than that! The go around on the battlefield, swinging randomly! Anyways, they've found out how to make their weapon rage with them! Whenever they have their rage thing going on, they get an additional bonus to strength equal to 1/2 their class levels (minimum 1). But even moreso, they can end their rage early (as a free action) to empower their weapon! All attacks in the round in which you end your rage early deal an additional amount of damage equal to the number of rounds remaining plus their (with their previous rage bonuses) strength modifier. Of course their still fatigued afterwards. Switching between You and They.

Favored Enemy(Su): The weapons these guys hold seems to sniff out all of their enemies! It's crazy I tell you. Their weapon gains blindsight in a 20ft radius center upon it, except they can only detect their master and any enemy who is a favored enemy, and can report what they find to it's master through telepathy. Furthermore, the weapon seems to thirst the blood of the enemies, and increases all bonuses against favored enemies by 1! For their enemies, there is no escape! The whole "communicate through telepathy" thing is really wonky. Just grant the wielder blindsight which only detects Favored Enemies while they hold the weapon.

Bonus Feats(Ex): Remember that off the wall ability you learned, but could only use it with that one weapon! Well know you've learned to use it with all of your weapons! Any weapon specific feats you possess now apply to all of your weapons, as long as the weapon would be a viable target for the feat. For example, if you had weapon focus(longsword), it would now apply to all of your weapons! Also, being an expert at using all different weapons, you deal more damage with them. Add your class levels to all damage rolls with any weapon you wield as a competence bonus. This is just not that interesting... poor fighters.

Sneak Attack (Sudden Strike)(Skirmish)(Ex): Now this here is for them sneak folk. Thanks to the powers of your dimensional gallery, your weapons now help guide you to the weak points of foes, especially those you couldn't find the weak point of! You can now sneak attack oozes, constructs, and undead, just like you could on any other folk! The guiding also helps you hit them, giving you a competence bonus to attack rolls equal to 1/2 of your class levels. Pretty nice... gets around some of the defenses against sneak attack.

Turn Undead(Su): You seen those holy folk, wielding weapons for their gods? Well, this here is for them folk! They gain the benefits of that protection from evil spell while wielding a weapon from their dimensional gallery, except the deflection bonus becomes equal to 1/2 of their class levels or the normal bonus, whichever is better. Furthermore, their weapon benefits from the Holy and Holy Surge abilities, except the number of times per day is in between all of your weapons, and does not apply individually between each weapon. Hm. This seems a little lackluster compared to some of the others...

Invocation(Su): These guy here with all that magic they have? Yeah, they've learned to use any invocation, or whatever they're called, as a free action whenever they make an attack with a weapon drawn from their Dimensional Gallery. However, it's straining on them (especially since these guys are normally frail), so they can only do it a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier or 1/2 of their class levels (rounded down), whichever is less. Furthermore, any foe they strike with the said weapon is weakened against their magics, and suffers a -2 to saves and -5 to SR (if they have any) to any invocations used against the foe stuck by the end of your next round. So does EB count as an invocation for this? i.e., you could Hideous Blow your EB damage and do EB damage again as a free action? If so, yay for forcing multiple saves!

Animal Companion(Su): These guy's weapons almost always seem to have fur, scales, fangs, or something of the like! Whenever they strike a foe hit by their animal companion within one round, they deal an additional amount of damage equal to their class levels! Oh, and since their so good with working with each other, any aid another and flanking bonuses that they grant to each other (and only to each other) are increased by 1/2 of their class levels! How's that for teamwork? Oh, and those with the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat qualify for this ability. This is lackluster as well.

Arcane Channeling(Su): Hey wait, I thought these guys were already covered above? You know, with the spells? Oh. So they are different. Well, anyways, the weapons they pool out of their Dimensional Gallery tend to have a jewel to focus their arcane energies, and are usually much lighter than their normal counterparts. Thus, whenever they use their arcane channeling ability as a Standard action, they get an additional attack, and treat their attack as a full-round attack for abilities such as haste, speed, and any other ability that only activates with a full-round attack. Furthermore, any spell they channel through their weapon with their Arcane Channeling thingamabob is empowered, meaning that any dice cap on any spell channeled is increased by 1 per 2 class levels! These guys love their damage after all! Wow, intense. Nice. :)

Hexblade Curse(Su): These guys give me the creeps! Anyways, their Curse(s) takes on new aspects with this ability! Any foe hit with an attack from a weapon drawn from their Dimensional Gallery suffers a -1/2 class levels (rounded down) to saving throws versus any of your abilities/spells! Furthermore, you add your Charisma modifier to damage rolls with your weapons against foes who are cursed! Oh, and there seems to be a lot of variations (read: Fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202885) and Retoolings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153696)) of these guys, so this feature also works with their variation of the curse. I assume that's a penalty? That's pretty fun, especially in a Doomspeak/Hexblade debuff machine.

Ki Pool(Su): Buncha wierdos are what these guys are! They draw this weird energy from themselves, and use it in different ways! Anyways, these guys have learned to forcibly draw more of this energy from themselves, called KI, through their weapons. Once per encounter, as part of drawing their sword, they gain an additional amount of Ki equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon! In addition, by expending a Ki point as they attack, all attacks they make for that round damage an additional opponent within 5ft of the original foe struck! They may be weird, but you can’t deny the usefulness of that! Not just swords, right? But that's pretty cool for clustered enemies. What about Sudden Strike damage?

Limit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168962) Break(Su) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239002): And yet these guys are crazy. You see, these guys actually get stronger as they get hurt! Well anyways, they’ve trained to use their weapons with this fighting style, and can add one-fourth of the damage done with any weapon drawn from their Dimensional Gallery to their damage pool. It has to be an actually threat to work , with a Cr equal to your character level -3 at least! No carrying rabbits in a bag just so you can get points, you little cheat! Oh yeah, and for every 5 points in their pool, they gain a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls with their weapons! "an actual threat" I think you mean. I don't know how this works, so I can't comment.

Familiar(Su): So these guys train and train their familiar just to give it up! These guys lose their familiar, and in turn, their Dimensional Gallery becomes their familiar! It becomes an Intelligent Item, roll 3d6 for its intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores. Furthermore, it gains blindsense 30ft, and otherwise acts as a normal familiar! But these guys get another added bonus! Since their Dimensional Gallery gains more magic that most, it infuses their weapons with some of that power. You get to choose an additional Custom Weapon ability whenever you draw a weapon! It only lasts half the time the rest do, however. Wow, intense. What if you also make it an Item Familiar? :smallyuk:

Rebuke Undead(Su): These guys have an unnatural connection with the undead. I wouldn’t go near them. But if it’s your thing, you get healed by one-fourth (rounded down) the damage deal with any weapon you draw! Additionally, these guys can spend a rebuke undead to empower their weapon with negative energy, dealing 1d6 negative energy damage per class level. Don’t get me wrong, they have strong powers, but I still wouldn’t be caught dead near them! "rebuke undead attempt". Not overwhelming, compared to some of the other abilities, but not bad.

Psionics(Su): Now these guys have some cool abilities! For every 10 power points they currently possess, they gain a +1 deflection bonus to AC! Of course, there has to be some limit to it, and that would be that the bonus is capped to their class levels. But furthermore, whenever they attack, they may spend power points to empower their attacks! For every power point they spend as a free action, their attack gains a +2 bonus to damage rolls on one attack with a weapon from their Dimensional Gallery. Now, they can only spend an amount of points equal to their class levels, but whenever they use this ability, all damage done by the weapon is converted to force damage! Meh. It's alright, but it penalizes PsyWars (who have so many fewer pps than psions), even though they are much more likely to want the class. Maybe instead an ability having to do with Psionic Focus?

No infusions?

Weapon Assault(Su): Well this is it. You’re the best of the best now, kid. At this level, you’ve learned a few tricks that put you ahead of the rest. First off, any ability based off your class levels is now based off either that or ½ of your character level, whichever is higher. Thus, you can continue your previous training, or move onto something even better, it’s all up to you. This does absolutely nothing unless you're an epic character, since the former will always be 10 and the latter only approaches 10 at 20th level.

Furthermore, those at this level have learned one final trick. Once per day, they may call upon all of the weapons in their Dimensional Gallery for one final assault. Using this ability is a full-round action, and is treated as a full-attack for feats and other abilities. They may draw a number of weapons from their Dimensional Gallery equal to 1 + ½ of their class levels or their Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. They proceed to make an attack with each weapon; because of the speed at which they pull this off, they provoke no attacks of opportunity with this ability, even if they normally would do so (such as firing a bow while in melee). These attacks may be split up as you wish, however, due to the effort needed for this ability,M you become fatigued for the remainder of the encounter. You have an extra M sitting there. Also, how does this interact with all the other abilities which trigger off of drawing weapons?

Can't critique the fluff, since you haven't done it :smallwink:

Nice job! I think my favorite thing is using wands, assuming you can use most of the custom item abilities on them.

bindin garoth

2012-09-10, 02:41 PM

Sirpercival, unfortunately you caught me in the middle of re-writing the class. I haven't had much time to work on it due to preparing for my business trip and spending time with my wife, but I'll be working on it more tonight. This is from my phone, so I cannot do a full reply, but:

Preform was put up by mistake. I'll be taking it down.

The feat really doesn't do much, so I'll be taking it down. I'll also give it full bab and a d10 hit dice.

I meant for this class to be a weapon collector of sorts, that's the only reason I didn't allow other items stored in it. I'll consider it to allow any item to be stored.

I like your idea for dimensional enhancement. I'll be changing it tonight.

I'll clear up the wording for custom weapon. It suppose to be that you have access to all of them, but can only apply so many to a weapon at a time. I'll also clarify the damage type done from certain abilities.

About wands: I'll go through the list and mark the ones that can be applied to wands, or if it works differently for them.

Mystic Ammo: No it does not. Will add note.

Bleeding Attack: Yes

Forced shot: Yes.

Burst: The same type as what the weapon normally does.

Line shot: Yes, precision damage does apply to the original attack.

Forcing Blows: No reason not to change it. I'll change it with the other changes.

Supercharge: I'll change it up a little. Maybe once every 1d4 rounds, you may use a spell from the wand without using a charge, although you still have to use charges to activate any feats associated with the wand? The way you worded it only makes it easier to apply metamagic and the like to it instead, I was thinking more along the lines of making the wand last longer.

Exotic Weaponry: It might be a little early to give proficiency to another exotic weapon, and the take 10 is superior.

About advancement: this was to explain the class advancement above and to limit it. I'll also add a clause for other systems, as well as for the teachings of the weapon class ability, if there isn't a system I haven covered.......... speaking of which, I didn't cover your ritual system. Will add tonight!

Maybe I'll give the power attach chain leap attack.

About the teachings of the weapon ability: all of your weapons benefit from it, just it must be chosen when you gain the feature and cannot be changed later, even if later you would qualify for a different ability. And thanks for going through each ability!

Soubinding: this will allow a binder to bind one vestige per encounter, but only gain one ability from it rather than all of its ability. And the bind would last for the encounter.

Spell casting: still need to possess some sort of spell casting feature to chose this ability.

Incarnum : I'll clear up the wording. Its suppose to be an extra attack once per round as a free action, as long as you have already attacked that round.

Mysteries : he attacks with the shadow copy only. I'm probably going to change this, just don't know what to.

Aura: all allies benefit from one ability your current weapon possesses, I'll clarify it. I'll also clarify that its the bonus that the aura grants is increased by 1.

Bardic music: I somehow forgot about that ability. I'll add it. I feel like I should add more.........

Breath weapon: will change title. I don't want to change the damage unless I make it a 1/round effect, which is being considered as we speak......

Truespeach: free action to increase damage, will clarify.

Spell shaping: they gain the ability to use the spell shape damage instead of weapons base damage as normal. Then again, they have the spellsoul weapon acf which does exactly this...... I'll think about replacing this. Edit: I'm currently thinking about putting in an exception for Spellshape Champions with the Spellsoul weapon ACF: All of their weapons count as a Spellsoul Weapon for their bonuses, and deal the base weapon damage in addition to the spellshape damage when channeling a spellshape through their attacks, and may now use their spellshape channel with ranged attacks.

Maneuvers: if they already have it, then they could do this more often. This can be strong, so I'm thinking about limiting to strikes of one level lower than the highest level maneuver that you may use.

Improved unarmed strike: will change to specify that it must be the damage increase monks get ( or the superior unarmed strike feat) on second thought, why not allow it to work with improved unarmed strike feat? Although it wouldn't do much for those with just the feat. Maybe I'll change it so that the weapon deals an additional amount of damage equal to the unarmed strike damage. Although unarmed strike damage is easy to increase.......

Combat style: you can only hold so many weapons in your dimensional gallery. But this is kinda plain, I'll hopefully thing of something else to replace this with.

Rage: will be changed. Also, might add something, right now it forces you to end your main way of fighting to get its bonus.

Favored enemy: will change.

Bonus feats: poor fighters indeed. I'll try and figure out how to make this better. Perhaps temporary feat, whose prerequisites can be met from the feat groups above, unlike normal, where those feats cannot be used to meet prerequisites?

Turn undead: I'll be buffing this ability.

Invocations: I'd allow EB to be used. Will add.

Animal companion: I agree. Maybe gain 1 Ex ability the companion has?

Arcane channeling: glad you like it! Figured it'd help make up for the fact they don't get the full round arcane channeling.

Hexblade curse: yup, its a penalty. Helps make the he blade curse still useful.

Ki pool: yes to both. Will clarify.

Limit break: basically it helps them use their abilities faster, as their abilities rely on having a pool that fills up as they take damage.

Familiar: Then you'd have a super familiar! But yes it can also be designated as an item familiar.

Rebuke Undead: Just like Turn Undead, it is a little weak. Will be changing.

Psionics: Good Idea about Psionic Focus. I'll probably have it grant a bonus while focused, and able to expend the focus for a burst effect.

Infusions: Knew I was forgetting something! I'll add this as soon as I think of something, probably a bonus for weapons that you craft yourself.

Weapon Assault:
Part 1: That's actually the point of the ability. For those that want to play epic, the abilities from this class continue to grow rather than stay static and slowly becoming weaker.

Part 2: Abilities that require a weapon drawn would only affect that individual weapon.

Will finish reply tonight! Finished!

sirpercival

2012-09-10, 04:16 PM

Walkers of the Endless Way Next!

{Opening flavor stuff} Very nice! I feel like if you managed to add in a little desperation, maybe a few Interesting Times (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6830.0), you'd have yourself a Rincewind.

Becoming a Walker of the Endless Way Even more very nice flavor.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Jump 9 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks
Feats: Dash and/or Travel Devotion
Special: Base Attack Bonus +5 and/or able to initiate third-level or higher martial maneuvers and/or access to the Travel domain
Special: Must own and wear a pair of boots of striding and springing.
Special: Must walk an Ended Way with an existing Walker while wearing boots of striding and springing. Other possible feats: Run, Endurance (to walk for longer), Expeditious Dodge, Speed of Thought.

The Ended Way This is pretty fun, and slightly hilarious. Question: How does silence effect the Way? Also, calling it an "Ended" way seems a little... weird. How about a "Bounded" way? Seems a little more natural. Ended makes me think it's already over, you know?

{Game rule info & table} d8 hit die, 3/4 BAB, good fort & ref. Not too shabby. Like a rangercleric. No dead levels, of course. Only 7 levels, which is interesting (& prevents epic progression); 5/7 maneuvers or spellcasting is definitely noticeable, but not a dealbreaker in most builds. And 6/7 IL progression is my guess.

Weapon Proficiencies: Walkers of the Endless Way gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies. They are, however, considered proficient with any special attacks they gain from this class. Can one be nonproficient with special attacks? I've never seen this implied anywhere...

Maneuvers or Divine Spells: At every level except first and seventh, the Walker of the Endless Way continues to advance either maneuvers learned and readied or divine spells as though she had also gained a level in a previous initiating or divine spellcasting class. She does not gain any of the other benefits of a level in that class (such as additional uses of turn undead, or additional stances known) except for an effective increase in initiating or spellcasting level. If the Walker of the Endless Way has more than one initiating or divine spellcasting class, she must choose which one to apply this benefit to; once chosen, her choice may not be changed, though the Walker is free to apply this benefit to a different class each time she gains it if she so wishes. Why no stances?? Also, the whole "this cannot be changed" part is confusing/misleading. It sounds like you have to pick one class and stick with it, though I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean. Also, what if you can do both (like tacking this onto an RKV build)? Can you progress both?

Seven League Stride (Ex): A Walker of the Endless Way learns how to make the most out of slight edges, to ignore fatigue and want, and to high-tail it when things get too rough for her tastes. She increases any bonuses to her movement speeds (including examples such as the Dash feat, or an expeditious retreat spell, but not sources that grant entirely new forms of movement such as a fly spell) by 50% (rounded down, to a minimum additional bonus of five feet). Additionally, she is immune to exhaustion, though she may still become fatigued. Nice exhaustion immunity. Does the bonus movement speed apply to the boots? If not, why not? If so, shouldn't they be an example? Lol. Also, do you get the benefit of this when you're not wearing the boots? I assume so.

Footwork (Ex): The Walkers of the Endless Way bond closely with the tool of their trade - the famous and much-loved boots of striding and springing. Through practice, advice and sometimes just twisting the magic of the boots around until it breaks to their will like a wild horse, they unlock new uses and techniques for their footwear. At second level and every two levels thereafter (fourth, sixth), the Walker may choose a Footwork ability, provided she meets its prerequisites (if any). Footwork abilities only function if the Walker is wearing a pair of boots of striding and springing, and do not function if the boots are rendered inoperable (but see the Extraordinary Footwear Footwork ability). Cool! Yay for customizability. :smallbiggrin: Can the same footwork be taken more than once to gain additional uses?

Springing Dodge (Ex): Once per encounter, as an immediate action, the Walker may make a Jump check (with all the normal benefits and pitfalls of making a Jump check). This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal; however, if the Walker uses Springing Dodge in response to an attack or spell and her Jump check takes her out of her attacker's reach or range, or out of the spell's range or area (as appropriate), she suffers no ill effects from the attack or spell whatsoever. Abrupt jaunt, eat your heart out. Make sure you include text saying that you move the distance indicated, otherwise you're just rolling d20s (look at the Sudden Leap maneuver to see what I mean). Another source of Battle Jump multipouncing!

Spring Attack (Ex): The Walker of the Endless Way gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat, even if she doesn't meet the prerequisites. Meh. OK.

Quick Step (Ex): Whenever the Walker of the Endless Way makes a five-foot step, she may choose to move up to ten feet (she can still only make one five-foot step per round, even if she only chooses to move five feet). Interesting. Essentially Press The Advantage (White Raven 5). That's two Footworks which are similar to maneuvers... that's not a bad thing, I'm just saying.

Agile Charge (Ex): The Walker of the Endless Way may change direction freely while charging or running (this power does not alter any of the other benefits or limitations of charging and running). So you still need LoS to charge someone? This won't let you charge around a corner...

Unimpeachable Stride (Ex): The Walker of the Endless Way may walk (or run) on liquids and solids that would not otherwise support her weight (such as water, or falling paper) at her normal land speed. As long as the Walker continues to move or stand on such a surface, she doesn't take damage or penalties from it (such as thick mud counting as difficult terrain, or damage from standing on a lake of acid), though she takes damage as normal if she chooses to swim within or immerse herself in a dangerous substance. Awesome. Time to go film Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon!

Snap Kick (Ex): The Walker of the Endless Way gains Snap Kick as a bonus feat, even if she doesn't meet the prerequisites. Furthermore, she increases the damage dealt by her bonus attack from the Snap Kick feat by one die step. Not sure why this fits, thematically... everything else seems very coherent.

Traveler's Freedom (Ex): The Walker of the Endless Way may activate a freedom of movement effect on herself as a swift action (that is, the effect is identical to a freedom of movement spell, except that it is an extraordinary ability that cannot be dispelled and is not subject to the effects of an antimagic field). This effect can last for a number of rounds per day equal to the Walker's class level, but she may choose to split it up into increments as small as one round if she so chooses. The wording is a little awkward. Maybe "can spend a swift action to gain the benefit of FoM as an extraordinary ability" is a little cleaner?

Walker's Network (Su): The Walker of the Endless Way may communicate telepathically with any being wearing boots of striding and springing. This telepathic communication operates over any distance, even if the two beings are on separate planes of existence, but does have some limitations: Lol, this is very flavorful and fun.

Walk It Off (Ex): Starting at third level, the Walker of the Endless Way no longer requires rest to recover hit points or heal ability damage (though the process does not take any less time; she simply no longer requires rest and relaxation to heal naturally). Additionally, she becomes immune to disease and environmental damage (including damage from severe weather, temperature extremes and planar traits, but not damage from area-of-effect spells or traps).

Spring Into Action (Ex): Leaping boldly into the fray is, of course, another use of the boots that the Walkers favor, and at fifth level she perfects the art; the Walker adds a +4 competence bonus to her Initiative modifier as long as she is wearing a pair of boots of striding and springing. Additionally, she may take an additional move action whenever she is acting during a surprise round. Too much "additional"ness. Can you use this when you take a std action too? Or do you have to take a move action to get the extra one?

Eternal Traveler (Ex): A Walker of seventh level is transformed by the Endless Way she walks into a being with the potential to be as eternal as it is; she ceases aging entirely (gaining neither further benefits nor penalties) and will never die of old age. Furthermore, she bonds deeply with her boots of striding and springing; they cannot be removed or destroyed by any means unless she deliberately chooses allow this to occur (she cannot be compelled magically to do so, either, though mundane persuasion could theoretically work). Damn... must make it hard to shower ;) Lol. This is okay, more of a fluff capstone than a mechanical one. I'd love something a little more substantial, especially since you've avoided an 8th level where another Footwork could be taken.

Playing a Walker of the Endless Way
Walkers of the Endless Way are hard to generalize about, because the only thing they truly all have in common is a love of travel. Why does your Walker travel? Are they running from something - a grifter or cheat on the run from some horrifying cosmic justice - or searching for something? Do they walk for the simple sake of walking? Do they want to see the multiverse, meet the gods, or find some long-lost lore? Once you decide what called your Walker to the Way, a lot of how they behave will settle out on its own. I'm hazy about this -- most of what I've seen in this section is in an in-universe style rather than talking directly to the player (that's what X in the Game is for). Still it's not a big thing, just a stylistic preference.

Combat: Walkers tend to fight like initiators or clerics do - but with that in mind, their class features place an emphasis on mobility that can greatly alter your available tactics. The ability to attack from new angles or spring into advantageous positions makes melee especially attractive for Walkers, and most invest in it to some degree. You know, I think maybe the best entry into this class is a Wardancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253400). That would be a very fun combo.

Advancement: Most Walkers of the Endless Way advance as initiators or clerics, though a small minority choose to advance as rogues or factotums instead. Why not rangers?

Resources: Given how loosely connected this order is, the Walkers don't provide much in the way of monetary resources to their members. However, information flows through the Walker's Network on a near constant basis, riding on the winds of psychic gossip; the Walker's Network counts as a masterwork tool for any Knowledge checks a Walker of the Endless Way chooses to make. Additionally, the Endless Way enjoys a positive relationship with many nations and with organizations such as the League of Boot and Trail, and may be able to expect discounted services at those locations. Gather Information, too, I would think?

Overall impressions: Very nice class, looks like it could be extremely fun. I'd love a few more options for entry than Dash or Travel Devotion, though...

ErrantX

2012-09-10, 10:29 PM

Ten more days folks! Home stretch!

-X

hierophant

2012-09-10, 11:07 PM

Well, I'm not quite finished yet, but I'm getting pretty damn close.
I've never smashed out as much as I just did in one sitting before, so any comments would be greatly appreciated. Mainly I would like to know that it makes sense to anyone else :smalltongue:
Once I'm done I'll try to go over everyone else's work as well to provide feedback, but that'll probably be on the weekend.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-10, 11:07 PM

Other possible feats: Run, Endurance (to walk for longer), Expeditious Dodge, Speed of Thought.

First: Thank'ee for the PEACH! I do appreciate the friendly tone.

I chose the two feats I did in order both to winnow down the huge list I STARTED with and because they're universally applicable in any game. Speed of Thought, for example, is banned in any no-psionics game. Yeah, a lot of other feats might make sense, but that's true of a lot of PrCs.

This is pretty fun, and slightly hilarious. Question: How does silence effect the Way? Also, calling it an "Ended" way seems a little... weird. How about a "Bounded" way? Seems a little more natural. Ended makes me think it's already over, you know?

The name has been changed. As far as silence goes, I will say this - that's certainly one way to shut your mentor up, but you'd better have a way to cast it while still talking or you've stopped participating in the conversation and lose by default.

For that matter, it probably wouldn't do to get caught in the spell yourself.

d8 hit die, 3/4 BAB, good fort & ref. Not too shabby. Like a rangercleric. No dead levels, of course. Only 7 levels, which is interesting (& prevents epic progression); 5/7 maneuvers or spellcasting is definitely noticeable, but not a dealbreaker in most builds. And 6/7 IL progression is my guess.

No, it's 5/7 IL; they gain an IL every time they advance maneuvers.

Can one be nonproficient with special attacks? I've never seen this implied anywhere...

I'd rather make this explicit than cause the Monk problem (where you're not proficient with your own stuff).

Why no stances?? Also, the whole "this cannot be changed" part is confusing/misleading. It sounds like you have to pick one class and stick with it, though I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean. Also, what if you can do both (like tacking this onto an RKV build)? Can you progress both?

Wording clarified.

Nice exhaustion immunity. Does the bonus movement speed apply to the boots? If not, why not? If so, shouldn't they be an example? Lol. Also, do you get the benefit of this when you're not wearing the boots? I assume so.

Cool! Yay for customizability. :smallbiggrin: Can the same footwork be taken more than once to gain additional uses?

Abrupt jaunt, eat your heart out. Make sure you include text saying that you move the distance indicated, otherwise you're just rolling d20s (look at the Sudden Leap maneuver to see what I mean). Another source of Battle Jump multipouncing!

Wording clarified, thank'ee for catching these.

So you still need LoS to charge someone? This won't let you charge around a corner...

That's fine. It will let you charge while avoiding enemy threatened areas, dodge around difficult terrain and, more importantly, let you take the Run action around corners.

Not sure why this fits, thematically... everything else seems very coherent.

I couldn't NOT do a super-kick ability, essentially.

The wording is a little awkward. Maybe "can spend a swift action to gain the benefit of FoM as an extraordinary ability" is a little cleaner?

Wording clarified.

Too much "additional"ness. Can you use this when you take a std action too? Or do you have to take a move action to get the extra one?

"Move" is actually a classification of action; any given character gets one Swift/Immediate action, one Move action, and one Standard action in a turn. A Move action can be used to move up to your speed, drink a potion, draw a weapon, or anything else labeled as a Move action. This ability gives them an extra one of those actions during a surprise round.

Damn... must make it hard to shower ;) Lol. This is okay, more of a fluff capstone than a mechanical one. I'd love something a little more substantial, especially since you've avoided an 8th level where another Footwork could be taken.

I think I have an idea.

Why not rangers?

Mostly because rangers suck, but also because rangers don't offer as much to them after they've sunk all those levels in; Rogue and Factotum offer abilities that take advantage of what they've built on in this class.

Gather Information, too, I would think?\

Done and done.

sirpercival

2012-09-11, 06:51 AM

First: Thank'ee for the PEACH! I do appreciate the friendly tone. No problem. I'm working on my PEACHing skills... and I'm a friendly guy ;)

I chose the two feats I did in order both to winnow down the huge list I STARTED with and because they're universally applicable in any game. Speed of Thought, for example, is banned in any no-psionics game. Yeah, a lot of other feats might make sense, but that's true of a lot of PrCs. Fair enough. Maybe a note that other feats could be allowed, and to discuss with your DM?

No, it's 5/7 IL; they gain an IL every time they advance maneuvers. And the two non-progressing levels count for half, like normal for IL ;)

I'd rather make this explicit than cause the Monk problem (where you're not proficient with your own stuff). Lol, yeah. OK, I see where that's coming from.

"Move" is actually a classification of action; any given character gets one Swift/Immediate action, one Move action, and one Standard action in a turn. A Move action can be used to move up to your speed, drink a potion, draw a weapon, or anything else labeled as a Move action. This ability gives them an extra one of those actions during a surprise round. Oh I know, but when you say "an additional move action", that implies that you took a move action already in the surprise round, when you could have instead taken a standard action. I was wondering if the ability still triggered in the latter case. Assuming so, maybe change the wording to "an additional action, which must be a move action used to move" or something slightly less clunky?

I think I have an idea. That's pretty cool! Though I wonder if you should make them keep the extra pair with them, to help with non-WBL-breakery. Does it have to be boots, or any shoe-like apparatus? What about a foot soulmeld? Just spitballing here ;)

sirpercival

2012-09-11, 10:52 AM

The feat really doesn't do much, so I'll be taking it down. I'll also give it full bab and a d10 hit dice. Cool beans.

I meant for this class to be a weapon collector of sorts, that's the only reason I didn't allow other items stored in it. I'll consider it to allow any item to be stored. I just realized, you need to make some kind of change here, if nothing else than to let them store wands in it! :smalltongue:

About wands: I'll go through the list and mark the ones that can be applied to wands, or if it works differently for them. Probably a good idea.

Supercharge: I'll change it up a little. Maybe once every 1d4 rounds, you may use a spell from the wand without using a charge, although you still have to use charges to activate any feats associated with the wand? The way you worded it only makes it easier to apply metamagic and the like to it instead, I was thinking more along the lines of making the wand last longer. How about "you can spend a half charge instead of a charge to use the wand (rounding up when you put the wand away), and can't add any effect which would increase the number of charges you'd spend"? Or something?

Exotic Weaponry: It might be a little early to give proficiency to another exotic weapon, and the take 10 is superior. So are you going to remove the exotic weapon part? If this is supposed to be the proficiency you noted under Weapon Profs, take that part out. As is, you're giving two profs.

About advancement: this was to explain the class advancement above and to limit it. I'll also add a clause for other systems, as well as for the teachings of the weapon class ability, if there isn't a system I haven covered.......... speaking of which, I didn't cover your ritual system. Will add tonight! Then I would take that part out of the table. You don't need it if you just say "half class level rounded down", and there's no confusion.

Maybe I'll give the power attach chain leap attack. That would help, though only for people who put ranks in Jump. Lol.

About the teachings of the weapon ability: all of your weapons benefit from it, just it must be chosen when you gain the feature and cannot be changed later, even if later you would qualify for a different ability. And thanks for going through each ability! No problem. I would try to clarify this.

Soubinding: this will allow a binder to bind one vestige per encounter, but only gain one ability from it rather than all of its ability. And the bind would last for the encounter. Make sure you actually edit that into the class. Right now it says you select one, and doesn't say what to do or what you get once you select it.

Maneuvers: if they already have it, then they could do this more often. This can be strong, so I'm thinking about limiting to strikes of one level lower than the highest level maneuver that you may use. I meant what if the weapon is already a discipline weapon for that discipline.

Combat style: you can only hold so many weapons in your dimensional gallery. But this is kinda plain, I'll hopefully thing of something else to replace this with. Make sure you clarify that it only counts for weapons in the dimensional gallery, since right now you have it as any weapon you're carrying. You could dual-wield rabbits, stick a mated pair of rabbits, some goodberries, and a bottle of air in a bag of holding and soon be doing infinite damage. Also, the whole idea of this class is having a variety of weapons in the gallery... this is not synergistic with that at all. I'd definitely change it.

Rage: will be changed. Also, might add something, right now it forces you to end your main way of fighting to get its bonus. Good point.

Bonus feats: poor fighters indeed. I'll try and figure out how to make this better. Perhaps temporary feat, whose prerequisites can be met from the feat groups above, unlike normal, where those feats cannot be used to meet prerequisites? Meh. This is not a problem with your class, it's a problem with fighters. The only thing you can do with this is "balrgh more bonus feats". Maybe grant them a fighter ACF for free? Though that's problematic for an artificer or any other class which gets bonus feats...

Animal companion: I agree. Maybe gain 1 Ex ability the companion has? A lot of them have no (Ex) abilities, or at least crappy ones. How about let the AC get the benefit of your custom weapon stuff with their natural attacks?

Weapon Assault:
Part 1: That's actually the point of the ability. For those that want to play epic, the abilities from this class continue to grow rather than stay static and slowly becoming weaker. Fair enough.
[/Spoiler]

sirpercival

2012-09-11, 04:21 PM

Spheroid Oddity And another.

{opening fluff} Awesome, awesome pic. And great fluff.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Knowledge (The Planes) 8 Ranks
Feats: Iron Will Should actually have the Aberrant Sphere on here, shouldn't you? Rather than in the text above?

{game rule info} Standard chassis (3/4 BAB, d6 hit die, good will saves). No dead levels, 8/10 spellcasting (though you don't need any spellcasting to enter). Solid. Also, the lost spellcasting levels are distributed well.

Favoured Sphere (Ex): At 1st level you get almost obsessively attached to your Aberrant Sphere. Like, super attached. When a Spheroid Oddity gains the 1st level of this class, they must designate one of their Aberrant Sphere(s) as their Favoured Sphere. Once they do this, the Favoured Sphere gains special qualities. The Spheroid Oddity gains the ability to call their designated Aberrant Sphere to their hand as a standard action, as if it were a weapon with the Called enhancement, they can use it in battle as a +X Light Mace, where X is half of their levels in this class. Lastly, the Favoured Sphere's caster level is equal to the Spheroid Oddity's Character Level. OK, cool. I don't like the "+X" phrasing and try to avoid it myself; maybe a little cleaner to say "a light mace with an enhancement bonus equal to half your class level"? Also, you switched from third to first person. Not a big deal, but I noticed.

Extra Charge (Ex): Using eldritch powers of supreme arcane magic and thoroughly reading the instruction parchment that came in the box, the Spheroid Oddity can get more out of their most beloved toy. At 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th level, the Spheroid Oddity's Favoured Sphere gains a number of bonus charges indicated in the table (each increase supercedes the last). And back to 3rd person. More daily uses for the sphere, cool. Just so you know, the way this is worded, it seems that at 1st level you get +1 and at 4th level you get an additional +3 (so +4 total), etc. Maybe say it gets an extra charge; the number of extra charges it gets increases at these levels as per the table? Does that distinction make sense?

Expanded List: The best part of being a Spheroid Oddity is the cool critters you can summon up. Starting at 2nd level, A Spheroid Oddity adds the following monsters to the list of creatures they can use their Favoured Sphere to summon. The Spheroid Oddity gains a Will Save Penalty equal to the charges spent on the summoning for as long as the summoned creature is summoned. Note that certain summons are inaccessible until certain levels. Oh, nice. I like more options! Just a nitpick, calling those "levels" is a little confusing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html), maybe instead call them "tiers"? Or "grades"? Also, I do like the options, but maybe even more? This is the theme of the contest. You could have a big list and let them choose a few at the indicated levels, you could add more granularity, etc.

Aberrant Friend (Ex): At 2nd level, the Spheroid Oddity gains Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) as a bonus feat, only each Wild Cohort that the Spheroid Oddity summons has the Pseudonatural template and is thus sentient (it understands Common and whatever the Baator is spoken in the Far Realms), but is otherwise treated as a normal Wild Cohort. Why make it a feat instead of just giving a pseudonatural Animal Companion-style class feature? This means that the char can't take Wild Cohort separately...

Sanity's Not For Me (Ex): Starting from 3rd level, the Spheroid Oddity resists the logical progression of reality's cause and effect for something distinctly more odd, gaining the ability to shrug off that which would kill it. The Spheroid Oddity gains Acid and Electricity Resistance equal to their class level. At 6th level, the Spheroid Oddity gains immunity to Fear and Confusion effects, and at 9th level gains immunity to all Mind-affecting Abilities. The mental stuff makes more sense thematically than the resistances, at least as far as the ability name goes.

Fractured Sanity (Ex): At 5th level, the Speroid Oddity gains the Far-Realmsian ability to split things in half and yet get double what they had in the first place, but only if they add a dash of tortured sanity to the orb beforehand. When a Spheroid Oddity uses an Aberrant Sphere to summon a monster, by optionally taking 1 point of Wisdom Burn they can summon a bonus monster of the same type (and for the same amount of time) without spending charges or suffering a Will Save penalty. "Far Realmsian" is an awesome term. I would say "spending more charges or suffering further Will save penalties" since they are doing both those things in the first place. Yay for aberrant malconvoker!

Elder Thing (Ex): At 10th level, The Spheroid Oddity has by now decided that it's best to walk like a cosmic horror, and talk like a cosmic horror too. A Spheroid Oddity of 10th level gains the Pseudonatural template, and the ability to obscure their (now) horrific form as a swift action, as per the Disguise Self spell, allowing them to avoid the wrath of those who oppose that which makes little sense. Lol. You should define which pseudonatural (ELH or CArc), and maybe use Half-Farspawn instead? Also, please please define what happens with LA when you gain the template. Does their ECL jump?

Playing a Spheroid Oddity
The Spheroid Oddity should be played according to what class they belonged to, with the added bonus of having reliable backup if things go wrong, in the form of some Druid-infuriating congregation of tentacles and slime.
Combat: As you fought before, you fight now. Only with more tentacle.
Advancement: If it sounds like I'm repeating myself, it's because I am. Just do what you do best, and keep doing what you do best.
Resources: Other than the odd Alienist cult (which are not really reliable), you're on your own. Lol. I wonder whether this class is best for spellcasters or non-spellcasters... My first impression was that you intended it for casters, but maybe (since there's nothing having to do with casting at all besides progression) you were just making it so a caster could take this without falling too far behind?

Most people are terrified of the Oddities in the common, "OH MY GOD GET THAT TENTACLED THING AW...." sense, but Druids are the ones who have a fit when they learn of a Spheroid Oddity, and that only means one thing - Bears. This is just... weird. Lol. I thought it was only in Eberron that druids hate aberrations? And bears... haha.

Daily Life: To apply averages to madness is foolish, but most Spheroid Oddities tend to have daily practise drills with their summons and Aberrant Friend.That doesn't make sense. Why would they waste charges on practice?

Notables: There are no notable Spheroid Oddities that dwell in comprehensible venues of mortal perception, as once the Oddity becomes of high enough level, they go all "gribbly" and are unwelcome in all but the Far Realms.
Organizations: There are no organizations that exist because mental instability plus a moody boss who makes too many demands always equals Father Llymic being awakened earlier than he should be and eating everyone.

NPC Reaction
As you've already guessed, just don't bother trying to be accepted. Hide your sphere, hide your friends, don't breath a word to anyone, and pray to the Elder Elemental Eye that the Druids don't get you. I think you could have taken a more serious tone with this... but it's quite amusing!

Spheroid Oddities in The Game (Hah! You lost!) Lol.

While based around being a Spellcaster PrC, the Spheroid Oddity can be a welcome addition to just about any character's build.
Adaptation: In Eberron, the madness comes from Xoriat, and in Faerun the madness could come from trying to comprehend Elminster's sheer Mary Sueness, or (more seriously) the conjuration of a mad god's dreams.
Encounters: Spheroid Oddities are normally just strange sages with a funky orb, so you'd find them in most often in secluded villages and locales, away from prying eyes. Yeah, there's nothing in here that actually has anything to do with spellcasting other than the progression...

An enjoyable read!

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-11, 05:48 PM

Oh I know, but when you say "an additional move action", that implies that you took a move action already in the surprise round, when you could have instead taken a standard action. I was wondering if the ability still triggered in the latter case. Assuming so, maybe change the wording to "an additional action, which must be a move action used to move" or something slightly less clunky?

There is no 'less clunky'. That's the precise wording used for every effect that grants this kind of thing - including the famed belt of battle. It isn't an additional action that must be used to move, it's an additional Move action - which means, for example, that they could use it to drink a potion, draw a weapon, move/tumble, or ANYTHING a Move action can be used for. The 'additional' is because in any given turn a combatant only gets one move action, so getting another one is an addition.

sirpercival

2012-09-11, 05:53 PM

There is no 'less clunky'. That's the precise wording used for every effect that grants this kind of thing - including the famed belt of battle. It isn't an additional action that must be used to move, it's an additional Move action - which means, for example, that they could use it to drink a potion, draw a weapon, move/tumble, or ANYTHING a Move action can be used for. The 'additional' is because in any given turn a combatant only gets one move action, so getting another one is an addition.

Except that this ability gets it in the surprise round, so they get a move or a standard. So they might not have any move actions to make an "additional" one.

And I recognize that that's how it's stated in other sources... I just wish they had worded it differently there too :) But either way, that's just a stylistic preference, and freely ignored. No worries.

Morph Bark

2012-09-11, 06:06 PM

And I recognize that that's how it's stated in other sources...

I was just thinking for a bit, and I think you've basically referred to nearly every official book with this.

sirpercival

2012-09-11, 06:11 PM

So? Unclear wording with copy/paste is still unclear wording. They need to fix their whole "additional" thing, it's why people try to make use of Tashalatora with no monk levels, etc.

Morph Bark

2012-09-11, 06:14 PM

I'm not judging, since it seems you thought so, I was stating an observation. :smalltongue:

sirpercival

2012-09-11, 06:19 PM

I'm not judging, since it seems you thought so, I was stating an observation. :smalltongue:

Oh. My apologies... :smallredface:

And yes. They do have a tendency to reuse poor wording. Like how by RAW, prc levels don't give wizards new spells in their spellbooks.

TheGeckoKing

2012-09-11, 06:32 PM

Thanks for the PEACH sirpercival! Answers in the spoiler.

Should actually have the Aberrant Sphere on here, shouldn't you? Rather than in the text above?

Yeah, probably should.

Standard chassis (3/4 BAB, d6 hit die, good will saves). No dead levels, 8/10 spellcasting (though you don't need any spellcasting to enter). Solid. Also, the lost spellcasting levels are distributed well.

I couldn't think what archetype to apply the class to, so I just threw it out there for everyone.

OK, cool. I don't like the "+X" phrasing and try to avoid it myself; maybe a little cleaner to say "a light mace with an enhancement bonus equal to half your class level"? Also, you switched from third to first person. Not a big deal, but I noticed.

Thanks - that's a better way of wording it. Also, I'm putting the switching down to, say, Far Realm invaders. :smallwink:

And back to 3rd person. More daily uses for the sphere, cool. Just so you know, the way this is worded, it seems that at 1st level you get +1 and at 4th level you get an additional +3 (so +4 total), etc. Maybe say it gets an extra charge; the number of extra charges it gets increases at these levels as per the table? Does that distinction make sense?

I get what you're saying, so I'll try and mess about with the wording.

Oh, nice. I like more options! Just a nitpick, calling those "levels" is a little confusing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html), maybe instead call them "tiers"? Or "grades"? Also, I do like the options, but maybe even more? This is the theme of the contest. You could have a big list and let them choose a few at the indicated levels, you could add more granularity, etc.

I like "grades".

Why make it a feat instead of just giving a pseudonatural Animal Companion-style class feature? This means that the char can't take Wild Cohort separately...

I have a better idea. I'll say "As Wild Cohort", but indicate that it's a separate thing. Good catch, btw.

The mental stuff makes more sense thematically than the resistances, at least as far as the ability name goes.

I just ran of out stuff to give, I'm afraid. :smallsigh:

"Far Realmsian" is an awesome term. I would say "spending more charges or suffering further Will save penalties" since they are doing both those things in the first place. Yay for aberrant malconvoker!

D'oh, I can't word stuff properly.

Lol. You should define which pseudonatural (ELH or CArc), and maybe use Half-Farspawn instead? Also, please please define what happens with LA when you gain the template. Does their ECL jump?

Ah yes. Must stop people gaining a +35 Natural Armour bonus, lest the PrC get chucked in with Ur-Priest and Hulking Hurler.

Lol. I wonder whether this class is best for spellcasters or non-spellcasters... My first impression was that you intended it for casters, but maybe (since there's nothing having to do with casting at all besides progression) you were just making it so a caster could take this without falling too far behind?

To be honest, I just didn't want to screw over the Sorcerers, Warlocks, Shadowcasters and any other class that doesn't really need nerfing.

This is just... weird. Lol. I thought it was only in Eberron that druids hate aberrations? And bears... haha.
That doesn't make sense. Why would they waste charges on practice?
I think you could have taken a more serious tone with this... but it's quite amusing!

I imagined the Spheroid Oddity practicing on "days off", as it were. And strangeness was the intention, so it seems I have done well.

Lol.
Yeah, there's nothing in here that actually has anything to do with spellcasting other than the progression...

Indeed. Spellcasters just don't need it, in my opinion.

An enjoyable read!

Very glad it was!

Golden-Esque

2012-09-11, 10:41 PM

Fifth Review, Forsaker of the Gentler Path

The introduction isn't very catchy. It almost sounds sleepy and I don't get excited when reading it. Your prerequisites are a little off; why have spell-like abilities as a prerequisite? It looks extremely clunky and almost seems like it is built into the class to allow some rules bending. I'd drop it and leave it at 3rd level spells. Which, mind you, is awkwardly high for one of these "merging things together" prestige classes, which usually stick to 2nd-level stuff. As written, entry into this Prestige Class may come at too high of a level for it to be useful.

I could be wrong, but I think you're doing the Maneuvers Known / Stances Known / Maneuvers Readied entry wrong. The way its written, it looks like you get a bonus maneuver (entry 1) and then lose it the next level (entry 0). Model precisely what you see in the Tome of Battle, though.

Wait ... so its a Prestige Class where you're basically a mage that decided to never cast spells again? Then what the heck was the point of the past 5 levels of your career? I'm sorry, this seems so ... contrived. I can understand forswearing magic from a Roleplaying perspective, but to make a class that literally builds up to this decision ... that takes all the drama out of the choice! I'll keep reviewing this class, but this theme is just ... wrong. I don't understand what Spellblade Enchanter is supposed to do, especially because I have no idea what this magic item you're supposed to be building this class off of does.

Your version of Mettle is terrible because it is specifically tied to the use of a martial maneuver. Mettle has been given out before to other classes without such a contrived restriction (see the Witch Hunter PrC in Tome of Magic).

So what I'm getting from this class is that spellblade isn't a magic item; its a special weapon property? So why don't the prerequisites read, "you must own a weapon with the spellblade special ability?" That would have made things a bit clearer.

I really do not like this Prestige Class. Its based off of a terrible idea game-mechanics wise, it appears to be based off of some sort of weapon special ability, and on top of that half the class does not even interact with this weapon property; it only servers to make specific martial maneuvers better. Overall, I think this class needs to be brought back to the chopping block and hammered out so that it is an attractive option.

Rating: 0/10.

Sixth Review, Coiled Guardians

No special treatment for you, Xallace ^_~.

Love the art; very capturing. Might want to scale the picture down so you can actually show it off without having to spoiler it. The description is good; not the best one I've read but powerful none the less. When I think of the rod of the python, I think of Moses. Maybe borrowing more from those chapters in the Bible will help your description. I would have picked Scalykin Domain or a similar reptile/snake based Domain as a prerequisite instead of Turn Undead. Not only would this open up the class to more than just Clerics (I believe Druids can take the domain as well), but its a little more thematic and explains why more Clerics aren't drawn to this Prestige Class, with its fairly lax prerequisites.

Why is the sentence, "The Snake gains the celestial template." bold?
I was confused at first where the snake was coming from; then I realized it was the snake created by the rod of the python. You might want to clarify that in your sentence; it isn't very obvious at first. I would also rephrase the ability to something like, "When the X activates her rod of the python, she may spend two uses of Turn Undead in order to ...." In other news, this makes it more clear why you chose Turn Undead as a prerequisite. You could, however, just as easily expend a use of your 1st level Domain to power it if you have an appropriate domain. ^_~

Tranquility feels out of place in this class. All it serves to do is to make the Cleric and Paladin less dependent on multiple ability scores. This is a noble goal for the Paladin, but the Cleric is still going to be a 17th level caster by the end of this; do they REALLY need the extra boast? I don't think so.

What the heck does, "Amphisbaena" mean? Also, what penalties are you talking about for the quarterstaff? The two-weapon fighting penalties? Because removing those is HUGE! Its basically free Two-Weapon Fighting. What about if I take Improved TWF? Do I not take the -5 on my second off-hand attack? This needs to be clarified a lot.

When we're talking about your snakey magical circle of protection, what are we talking about when you say 10 x class level? We talking 10 feet? 10 miles? 10 inches? I'm being a jerk, but you need to be very clear when you write or players will take advantage of you. The ability itself is cool; kind of a Red Mage of Thay that isn't completely useless without friends.

You never list which level the character gains Meditating Upon the Serpent in the ability's description.

This is a pretty cool class, but it does not feel completed (one of your entries is empty) and there is a LOT of content to this class. It looks like the class is focused on A) making you better at fighting with the Quarterstaff and B) giving you cool magical snake powers. That's all well and good, but it might be better off to limit yourself a bit. This class feels like it does far too much, especially when you could simply write, "This class gains X bonus feat at Y level." You don't need to be super flashy with tons of abilities to win.

Rating: 6/10. This is a strong class with good writing, a very direct theme, and it actually feels like it uses its item to do something cool and exciting. It needs polish, but not a lot of it.

Oh boy. And then I read the entry on the serpent. Xallace, to put it bluntly, this class does FAR too much. It has a powerful companion, great spellcasting, and it significantly boosts your abilities with a particular weapon to Fighter-like levels. It stops progressing Fortitude but starts progressing Reflex, so its got okay saves and if you're a Cleric, then you've got spells to help with that average BAB.

I have to knock the rating down to a 4/10 simply because of that snake. There are times when it is a good thing to bloat up the class, such as when you're providing many options within one class. But this class takes a whole lot of stuff and just gives it to you. Its too much!

Jeff the Green

2012-09-12, 12:19 AM

The introduction isn't very catchy. It almost sounds sleepy and I don't get excited when reading it. Your prerequisites are a little off; why have spell-like abilities as a prerequisite? It looks extremely clunky and almost seems like it is built into the class to allow some rules bending. I'd drop it and leave it at 3rd level spells. Which, mind you, is awkwardly high for one of these "merging things together" prestige classes, which usually stick to 2nd-level stuff. As written, entry into this Prestige Class may come at too high of a level for it to be useful.

It's specifically designed to be available starting at level 11, just like Eternal Blade.

I could be wrong, but I think you're doing the Maneuvers Known / Stances Known / Maneuvers Readied entry wrong. The way its written, it looks like you get a bonus maneuver (entry 1) and then lose it the next level (entry 0). Model precisely what you see in the Tome of Battle, though.

I agree, it's funky, but it's copy-pasted from ToB.

Wait ... so its a Prestige Class where you're basically a mage that decided to never cast spells again? Then what the heck was the point of the past 5 levels of your career? I'm sorry, this seems so ... contrived. I can understand forswearing magic from a Roleplaying perspective, but to make a class that literally builds up to this decision ... that takes all the drama out of the choice! I'll keep reviewing this class, but this theme is just ... wrong. I don't understand what Spellblade Enchanter is supposed to do, especially because I have no idea what this magic item you're supposed to be building this class off of does.

You can understand it from a roleplaying perspective, but making a PrC that allows you to do so without having to roll up a new character is wrong? :smallconfused:

Your version of Mettle is terrible because it is specifically tied to the use of a martial maneuver. Mettle has been given out before to other classes without such a contrived restriction (see the Witch Hunter PrC in Tome of Magic).

It's not tied to a maneuver; the reference to mind over body and moment of perfect mind is to clarify that the ability works even if you use the maneuvers instead of a straight Will or Fortitude save, since it's not perfectly clear in the pre-ToB versions. That seemed, and still seems, fairly clear to me.

So what I'm getting from this class is that spellblade isn't a magic item; its a special weapon property? So why don't the prerequisites read, "you must own a weapon with the spellblade special ability?" That would have made things a bit clearer.
Fixed.

I really do not like this Prestige Class. Its based off of a terrible idea game-mechanics wise, it appears to be based off of some sort of weapon special ability, and on top of that half the class does not even interact with this weapon property; it only servers to make specific martial maneuvers better. Overall, I think this class needs to be brought back to the chopping block and hammered out so that it is an attractive option.

:smallannoyed: How very helpful.

Honestly, I appreciate you looking at the class, but I have a hard time your PEACH seriously when my class contains an ability that lets you use a spell as a maneuver and (until now) had another that would have allowed you to make a saving throw to negate a mage armor a wizard cast on himself, and you don't mention either.

Cheesy74

2012-09-12, 02:48 PM

The Card Shark's fluff is in progress and will be done by the end of the day (I've been doing a looot of stuff thanks to the start of the new semester). I'm really pleased with the turnout for this competition, it's producing some stellar stuff!

EDIT: If someone wouldn't mind taking a look at the Card Shark, I'd appreciate it. I'm pleased with how its mechanics turned out, but I feel like it doesn't get much in the way of secondary features like feats. My first instinct is to put them on the levels where Cash It In is improved, but I'm not sure what feats would work well with them.

Xallace

2012-09-12, 07:55 PM

Sixth Review, Coiled Guardians

No special treatment for you, Xallace ^_~.

I would be insulted if I got special treatment. :smallwink:

Thanks for the critique though! Always appreciated.

Love the art; very capturing. Might want to scale the picture down so you can actually show it off without having to spoiler it. The description is good; not the best one I've read but powerful none the less. When I think of the rod of the python, I think of Moses. Maybe borrowing more from those chapters in the Bible will help your description. I would have picked Scalykin Domain or a similar reptile/snake based Domain as a prerequisite instead of Turn Undead. Not only would this open up the class to more than just Clerics (I believe Druids can take the domain as well), but its a little more thematic and explains why more Clerics aren't drawn to this Prestige Class, with its fairly lax prerequisites.

I was trying to avoid references to Moses for board-related reasons, as well that story being the clear inspiration for the item in the first place - the class is meant to dig a little deeper into serpent symbolism as a whole. Now in all honesty I've been thinking about this class in terms of it being a Pally prestige class rather than anything else - as you note later, it's quite a lot, so perhaps a further restriction on prerequisites would do better, don't you think?

Why is the sentence, "The Snake gains the celestial template." bold?

Very strange formatting error.

I was confused at first where the snake was coming from; then I realized it was the snake created by the rod of the python. You might want to clarify that in your sentence; it isn't very obvious at first. I would also rephrase the ability to something like, "When the X activates her rod of the python, she may spend two uses of Turn Undead in order to ...." In other news, this makes it more clear why you chose Turn Undead as a prerequisite. You could, however, just as easily expend a use of your 1st level Domain to power it if you have an appropriate domain. ^_~

Definitely a good point. Although like I mentioned earlier I've been thinking of this as being a paladin PrC, which is why Turn Undead is a focal point. I don't think using up Smite would make much sense, y'know? But, I've started thinking about alternates already.

Tranquility feels out of place in this class. All it serves to do is to make the Cleric and Paladin less dependent on multiple ability scores. This is a noble goal for the Paladin, but the Cleric is still going to be a 17th level caster by the end of this; do they REALLY need the extra boast? I don't think so.

Once again, paladins. Then again, I could just as well base everything off of Charisma!

Actually I've been reading back over it and was thinking about starting this class again from the ground up. Your critique is certainly helping to cement that idea.

What the heck does, "Amphisbaena" mean?
It's a serpent with heads at both ends. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphisbaena)

Also, what penalties are you talking about for the quarterstaff? The two-weapon fighting penalties? Because removing those is HUGE! Its basically free Two-Weapon Fighting. What about if I take Improved TWF? Do I not take the -5 on my second off-hand attack? This needs to be clarified a lot.

Yes, the intent was to remove TWF penalties while you're using a quarterstaff or equivalent. All of the TWF penalties. Other feats included.

When we're talking about your snakey magical circle of protection, what are we talking about when you say 10 x class level? We talking 10 feet? 10 miles? 10 inches? I'm being a jerk, but you need to be very clear when you write or players will take advantage of you. The ability itself is cool; kind of a Red Mage of Thay that isn't completely useless without friends.

Oh, yeah, feet. That's just an omission, thanks for catching it.

You never list which level the character gains Meditating Upon the Serpent in the ability's description.

Oh. 4th. I'll fix that.

This is a pretty cool class, but it does not feel completed (one of your entries is empty)

Yep! Nooooot finished at all, haha.

and there is a LOT of content to this class. It looks like the class is focused on A) making you better at fighting with the Quarterstaff and B) giving you cool magical snake powers. That's all well and good, but it might be better off to limit yourself a bit. This class feels like it does far too much, especially when you could simply write, "This class gains X bonus feat at Y level." You don't need to be super flashy with tons of abilities to win.

Oh don't worry, I didn't have a strategy. :smallwink:
More-so this is just the result of me going "What sorts of divinely-inspired snake-themed powers could I use?" and then writing them in. I actually left several ideas out because I didn't feel like they fit at all. All-in-all I'm actually not pleased with the class so far and am considering either restructuring it from the ground up or removing it entirely.

Rating: 6/10. This is a strong class with good writing, a very direct theme, and it actually feels like it uses its item to do something cool and exciting. It needs polish, but not a lot of it.

Oh boy. And then I read the entry on the serpent. Xallace, to put it bluntly, this class does FAR too much. It has a powerful companion, great spellcasting, and it significantly boosts your abilities with a particular weapon to Fighter-like levels. It stops progressing Fortitude but starts progressing Reflex, so its got okay saves and if you're a Cleric, then you've got spells to help with that average BAB.

I have to knock the rating down to a 4/10 simply because of that snake. There are times when it is a good thing to bloat up the class, such as when you're providing many options within one class. But this class takes a whole lot of stuff and just gives it to you. Its too much!

Yeah, the snake was actually meant to be the focal point of the class... and then I kept writing and now it's this bloated monstrosity (no pun intended). I'm thinking it might be better off as a couple of related prestige classes instead. I'm going to have to mull it over for a couple days, probably. Take care of it this weekend.

sirpercival

2012-09-12, 10:23 PM

Foresaker of the Gentler Path

I'm feeling PEACHy!

{opening fluff} Cool pic! Watch out, you have an extra "e" in Forsaker in a few places. I'd just do a mass find/replace. So, a former spellcaster antimage? Interesting, we'll have to see how it turns out.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Concentration 13, Knowledge (arcane) 8, Spellcraft 8.
Feats: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells or use 3rd-level spell-like abilities.
Maneuvers: Must know at least two of action before thought, mind over body, and moment of perfect clarity.
Special: Must own a weapon with the spellblade enhancement (PGtF p. 120). I think you mean "moment of perfect mind", since "moment of perfect clarity" doesn't exist. Any two of a 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd level maneuver will probably mean the 1st and 2nd, but maybe not. So we've got 11th-level entry, including 5 levels of spellcasting and 2nd-level maneuvers (IL 3). Since you get IL 2 from the 5 levels of spellcasting, that means other than the Concentration ranks, you could enter as Wiz 5/Warblade 1. Note that SLAs don't actually have levels; the spells they emulate do, or (if they're invocations) they have level equivalents, but not actual levels. You may want to adjust your wording.

{game rule info} Hit die? So, an initiator prc. Not unexpected. However, a 10-level initiator with poor BAB? And no good saves? I don't think that's a good idea from a balance standpoint; to justify the terrible chassis, you'll have to make the abilities more overpowered, or no one will take the class. Better to regress both to the mean, I would think. But let's see how it goes.

Class Skills (4+Int skill points per level): Balance, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble Medium skill points from a good list. Sounds good.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Forsakers of the gentle path gain proficiency with all armors, shields (including tower shields), all simple weapons, and all martial weapons It's likely they had this before, but okay. If they entered as straight spellcaster and satisfied the maneuver prereqs with Martial Study, this is a benefit.

Maneuvers
At each odd-numbered level, a forsaker of the gentler path gains a new maneuver known from any discipline he already knows at least one stance or two maneuvers in. He must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. A forsaker of the gentler path does not add his entire class level to his initiator level to determine his total initiator level and his highest-level maneuvers known (but see Forsaker of Power, below).

At 3rd level, 6th level, and 9th level, a forsaker of the gentler path gain an additional maneuver readied per day. The wording on which disciplines you can choose from could be a little neater. Maybe have them pick a set of 2 or 3 at first level? Also, maybe add "Unlike other martial adept prestige classes" to the front of the initiator level thing? But this again contributes to the poor chassis and I might consider axing it. Clearly the maneuvers are important, so why make them fall behind?

Stances Known
At 5th level, a forsaker of the gentler path learns a new martial stance from any discipline he knows at least one stance or two maneuvers in. He must meet a stance’s prerequisite to learn it. If you change the wording on discipline selection above, you can change this to "any discipline available to him".

Continued Study (Ex)
Though he has forsworn the use of magic, the forsaker of the gentler path continues to study it to better understand its effects. He adds his class level to his caster level of any arcane caster class he had levels in before taking his first forsaker of the gentler path level. Maybe put this after Forsaker of Power? I know it's alphabetical, but this doesn't make sense until you actually have the text saying "you give up spellcasting". Also, feel free to abbreviate to "Forsaker".

And I just realized that this doesn't increase SLA caster levels...

Forsaker of Power (Ex)
Forsakers of the gentler path can cast spells, but choose not to. In exchange for this sacrifice, he gains increased martial ability. He adds half his caster level to his initiator level to determine his total initiator level and his highest-level maneuvers known and gains a bonus to weapon attacks, and a dodge bonus to his armor class equal to half his caster level. OK, so now I get the half-initiator level thing. The only problem with this is that you could see insanely high ILs with the right build. For example, Spont Div Wiz 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus 4/Forsaker 10 has a KotW CL of 33. Also, CL from one class or total of all classes?

You should put in some crunch about what "chooses not to" means, or at least put a reference to Ex Forsakers below.

Spellblade Enchanter (Ex)
A foresaker of the gentler path need not rely only on his own abilities to combat spellcasters. He can use his knowledge of arcane energies to add the spellblade enhancement to any weapon by spending 3000 gp worth of materials and three days of work. He need not expend a spell turning spell to do so. XP? I assume not, but it should be explicit.

In addition, a foresaker of the gentler path can further enhance any weapon with the spellblade enhancement. He can add any enhancement to such a weapon without expending or casting any spells so long as he meets the prerequisites and his class level is at least equal to the spell the enhancement normally requires. He must still spend the normal XP cost and raw materials. This is a little confusing. What you're saying is that he can add weapon properties without having the prereq spells? Or is it just enhancement bonus?

Mettle (Ex)
At 2nd level and higher, a forsaker of the gentler path can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save (or a successful Concentration check made as part of mind over body, or moment of perfect clarity) against a spell or spell-like ability that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping forsaker of the gentler path does not gain the benefi t of mettle. Striaghtforward (though again clarity->mind). Mettle's good for antimages.

Readied Mind (Ex)
Extensive training allows a forsaker of the gentler path to recover much more quickly from a magical attack. Starting at 2nd level, any time he successfully reduces or negates the effect of a spell or spell-like ability using action before thought, mind over body, or moment of perfect clarity, he may make a concentration check against DC 20 + the level of the spell or spell-like ability he used the maneuver to reduce or negate the effect of as a free action. If he succeeds, he recovers the expended maneuver instantly. That wording is a little clunky. How about "he may make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the spell's level) as a free action to recover the maneuver instantly."

Evasion (Ex)
A 3rd level forsaker of the gentler path gains the ability to evade magical attack. He gains evasion, as the rogue ability, except that it functions regardless of the armor he wears and applies to Concentration checks made as part of action before thought. You should be a little more explicit about how this works, and maybe not call it evasion -- some people might skim over it without realizing. So basically this is evasion that only works when you use the maneuver, swapping the Concentration check for the Reflex save?

Spellblade Focus (Ex)
A foresaker of the gentler path has trained with spellblades to such a degree that he can instinctively use even unfamiliar weapons with the spellblade enhancement. At 3rd level he gains the Weapon Focus feat for any weapon with the spellblade enhancement. In addition, if he takes any feat with a prerequisite of Weapon Focus that applies to a specific weapon type he may choose spellblades rather than a specific weapon type. Hm, okay. Allowing some versatility in terms of equipment. WF is pretty underwhelming, but with the Forsaker of Power ability, if you build right, you don't need it. Although... one alternative is to make the bonuses you give out from Forsaker of Power instead apply here, and only when you wield a spellblade. Ties the item in more closely with the class abilities, and spreads out the benefits.

Versatile Spellblade (Ex)
Normally a spellblade is attuned to a specific spell and this choice cannot be altered. Not so with spellblades wielded by foresakers of the gentler path. At 4th level he can spend one hour each morning in practice with a spellblade to change the spell it is attuned to. If he also has the Weapon Aptitude class ability, he may spend this hour concurrently with the hour spent practicing to change weapon-specific feats. This alteration lasts until the foresaker of the gentler path chooses to spend an hour to change the spell the spellblade is attuned to again. Nice. I might even give this out earlier, since this is basically what the class is supposed to be about.

Double Spellblade (Ex)
Starting at 6th level, a foresaker of the gentler path frees a spellblade from its restriction of a single spell. As part of the hour he spends using the versatile spellblade class feature, he may make a DC 30 Spellcraft check. If successful, he may specify a single additional spell to which the spellblade enhancement applies. Unlike the versatile spellblade class feature, this effect lasts only 24 hours. Nice! I like it.

Spurn the Path Abandoned(Ex)
At 7th level a foresaker of the gentler path gains spell resistance equal to 15 + his initiator level. OK, not too shabby. Can you include a raise/lower action that's better than the horrendous default? Free action is best...

Multiple Spellblade (Ex)
As the foresaker of the gentler path grows in power and knowledge, so does his ability to unlock greater flexibility from his spellblade. Starting at 8th level, whenever he uses the double spellblade class feature, he may add a further additional spell to which the spellblade enhancement applies for each 5 he beats the Spellcraft check. This wording is a little clunky. "whenever he uses his Double Spellblade ability, he may have the spellblade property apply to one additional spell for every 5 by which his Spellcraft result beats the DC."

Immovable Object (Ex)
As he approaches the zenith of his career, a forsaker of the gentler path gains the ability to shrug off magical effects, even those that others can not even attempt to endure. Starting at 9th level, he can use the action before thought, mind over body, or moment of perfect clarity maneuvers to negate the effects of any spell or spell-like ability targeting him that does not offer a saving throw. The DC of the spell or spell-like ability is equal to 20+the spell's level+the caster's key ability score (if the caster does not have a key ability score, use Charisma) or 20+1/2 the caster's HD+the caster's Charisma for spell-like abilities that do not mimic a spell. Which maneuver he uses depends on the school of the spell: mind over body if Necromancy or Abjuration; moment of perfect clarity if Enchantment, Illusion, or Divination; and action before thought if Evocation or Conjuration. If the spell is Universal or the spell-like ability does not have a school of magic it is associatedwith, he may use any of the three maneuvers. Transmutation? This is kinda cool.

Absorb Spell (Ex)
At 10th level a foresaker of the gentler path reaches the pinacle of his power. Whenever a spellblade he wields absorbs a spell, he may choose to absorb rather than redirect it or allow it to dissipate harmlessly. If he does so, he suffers the full effect of the spell and makes a DC 20 + twice the spell's level Spellcraft check. If he succeeds he learns the spell as a maneuver, replacing a maneuver of the same level as the spell so absorbed. Oh. Um, holy crap. So first, what if he doesn't have a maneuver of the appropriate level? Second, this is hella broken. How about, like, Celerity? Polymorph? Friendly Fire? Um, Miracle? Hey, let's produce any 8th-level cleric spell or 7th-level anything spell every other round or so! This is arcane swordsage but much more ridiculous. Or, you know, Shapechange.

A spell-maneuver is Supernatural. Any effects based on caster level are instead based on initiator level, and its save DC (if any) is equal to 10 + maneuver level + the foresaker of the gentler path's Intelligence modifier. If the spell the maneuver duplicates has a Corrupt, Sacrifice, or XP component, the foresaker of the gentler path must pay the cost each time he uses the maneuver. If the spell has a costly material component, he must possess (but not necessarily manipulate or hold) a focus equal to 50 x the cost of the material component in order to use the maneuver. If the spell has a costly focus, he must possess (but not necessarily manipulate or hold) a focus of the same cost. This helps with mitigating things like Gate, but there are enough broken spells that don't have components like this that it's still nuts.

A foresaker of the gentler path can know a number of spell-maneuvers equal to half his Intelligence modifier, minimum 1. He cannot attempt to learn another if he already knows this maximum. If he so wishes, he may spend eight hours meditating to forget all spell-maneuvers he knows. These are replaced with the normal maneuvers he replaced with the spell-maneuvers when he learned them. I don't know why you would ever do this, unless you come across something that you have to have and are already at your maximum.

Ex-Forsakers of the Gentler Path
The gentler path of magic is eternally seductive, and those that abandon it must eternally remain on guard for the temptation to return to it. A forsaker of the gentler path that prepares or casts a spell or uses a spell-like ability loses all foresaker of the gentler path abilities (including the maneuvers readied and known and stances known, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies or the hit die associated with foresaker of the gentler path levels). He may not progress any farther in levels as a foresaker of the gentler path. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate. If he was magically compelled to prepare or cast a spell or use a spell-like ability, he loses no abilities or advancement potential and need not atone. Gender confusion, a little. I'd put this higher up, in a spoiler.

So, thoughts: the balance of this is completely out of whack. Personally, I'd come up with a new capstone, tweak the CL->IL formula to prevent abuse, and improve the chassis. I like the ideas you were going for, but the execution needs work.

Don't forget your fluff!

MoleMage

2012-09-12, 10:46 PM

Alright Jeff, I finally am getting around to it, sorry it took so long. Work has been crazy.

Requirements:I understand where all of them are coming from, which is good.

HD, Skills, Saves:This is a class that's supposed to be fighting magic users, which requires magic-using classes to get into. It really is gonna be hurt by the poor BAB, and every class has at least one good save; don't be stingy. I'd recommend Will and/or Ref, in keeping with the anti-magic theme. You don't seem to have a hit dice listed.

Skills look okay.

Maneuvers and Stances known: Given the requirements, these are of course going to happen. I'm not versed enough in maneuvers to know exactly what a normal prestige class progression is for them.

Continued Study:This seems odd. If they give up magic, why do they continue to progress in it? I understand some of the mechanical benefits (Item Creation feats), but I just don't understand the reasoning behind it.

Forsaker of Power: Oh, here it is. I understand the BAB and Caster level stuff now. I revoke my complains about those things. Does this bonus grant iterative attacks or not?

Spellblade Enchanter:So this is a way to make spellblade weapons and further enchant them without losing grace by using magic?

Mettle and Evasion: Yup, besting magic effects. Maybe consider a special caveat that for the Forsaker, it only applies to Spells or Spell-like ability.

Readied Mind: I don't really understand how this ability works. Do you just make the concentration check to keep the maneuver? Maybe clean up the wording.

Spellblade Focus: A lot of people are going to just stick with one Spellblade weapon, especially since they can enchant their favorite weapons with extra abilities already. This ability seems underwhelming, but it comes with Mettle, which is cool enough for its own level.

Versatile Spellblade: Good. Doesn't do much to help with the Spellblade Focus's above mentioned problems, but the ability adds something new to the magic abilities of their iconic item. In this contest, that's essential.

Fifth level: They get a stance and a maneuver, but I feel like there's something lacking here. Keep in mind, that a new spell level or level of maneuvers counts as something filling a level, but you can't predict when someone going into this class gets new levels, so this might be underwhelming.

Double Spellblade: This is another good one, like Versatile Spellblade, but the name is misleading (I imagine two spellblades, not a spellblade doing two things).

Spurn the Path Abandoned: Aside from the inherent problems with Spell Resistance (namely, that by rules as written you resist even harmless spells, unless you take a standard action to allow all spells to affect you for a round). However, I believe most people don't play with those rules, dysfunctional as they are, in which case this is good.

Multiple Spellblade: See Double Spellblade.

Immovable Object: Add a caveat that they have to be wielding the Spellblade to benefit from this ability, and I'm all onboard.

Absorb Spell: Make sure there's a clause in there that the Forsaker must know a maneuver of the level of the spell they are trying to learn. Also be aware that you're giving this class the ability to do things like cast Disjunction once per encounter. Ninth level spells, as a whole, are extremely powerful. Consider the Forsaker whose wizard friend uses Wish to buff him. The Forsaker gains the benefits of...having a permanently boosted stat. And can use any spell in the wizard list 8 or lower whenever he could use maneuvers.

To sum up, good idea, poor execution. Consider approaching it from a different angle.

Golden-Esque

2012-09-12, 10:47 PM

You can understand it from a roleplaying perspective, but making a PrC that allows you to do so without having to roll up a new character is wrong? :smallconfused:

Your Prestige Class basically turns those levels of Wizard / Sorcerer / Insert Spellcasting Class here into levels of Commoner. It isn't a good design philosophy.

:smallannoyed: How very helpful.

Honestly, I appreciate you looking at the class, but I have a hard time your PEACH seriously when my class contains an ability that lets you use a spell as a maneuver and (until now) had another that would have allowed you to make a saving throw to negate a mage armor a wizard cast on himself, and you don't mention either.

Do you know what else would let you use a spell like that? Just casting the spell. Do you know what else would negate a mage armor spell? Dispel Magic, which you'd get much sooner than your prestige class ability. If you simply did not try to qualify for this Prestige Class. I would be more impressed with buff-removal if it wasn't tied to already possessing levels in a class and then invalidating them for roleplaying reasons. Roleplaying can be an awesome reason to add class abilities, but there is never a good reason to take away or restrict abilities that you have already earned. After all, that's why the atonement spell exists. It is not good design and I can assure you that anyone who is building a character in the low-levels is going to ignore you're Prestige Class. They'll probably just go for Jade Phoenix Mage, which has amazing fluff and doesn't ignore the low-level wizard / sorcerer's class abilities.

And my point about your class belonging in this contest by only the most technical of reasons still stands; it feels very cheap to base your class off of a weapon ability when everyone else is using specific, named items.

Golden-Esque

2012-09-12, 10:51 PM

Yeah, the snake was actually meant to be the focal point of the class... and then I kept writing and now it's this bloated monstrosity (no pun intended). I'm thinking it might be better off as a couple of related prestige classes instead. I'm going to have to mull it over for a couple days, probably. Take care of it this weekend.

I think a Prestige Class focused on improving the snake into an animal companion-like entity would be very cool; something along the lines of how Driz'zt Dourdern interacts with his Panther. (Aka he uses that thing WAY more often than he should be able to!) Including some benefits that improve how Two-Weapon Fighting works with the staff aren't a bad idea either. Pathfinder has a bunch of Quarterstaff fighting feats and a magus archetype based around it; you could look at them for inspiration.

bindin garoth

2012-09-14, 08:33 PM

Well currently making changed here and there, a little bit at a time. Hopefully I'll have time to finish this before the contest ends, I'm expecting to have a big chance to make changes sunday.

Zelkon

2012-09-16, 07:52 PM

Gah! So frustrated. I need some help on my PrC. The idea is that a wizard can grab a spell out of his pocket in addition to some normal casting and cast it, but the spell is pulled out semi-randomly. They put different spells in different pockets, and you roll dice when you take them out and cast the one that corresponds with the number you rolled. This is to offset all the other benefits of the class, and also taking more random results (having a pocket where you roll a d10 instead of a d4 to see what spell you cast) nets you more benefits (like an increased caster level or free metamagic). But what do I do for spontaneous casters? Rolling randomly takes away their advantage of casting whatever, whenever.

sirpercival

2012-09-16, 07:56 PM

Zelkon

2012-09-16, 08:03 PM

Require the ability to prepare spells?

I guess... I'd like to hear what other people suggest, if anyone would like to.

Jeff the Green

2012-09-17, 07:00 PM

Well, looks like I'm going to have to withdraw. I've got family stuff going on and won't have time to finish. I'll post the Forsaker in its own thread when I have the time to polish it.

Thanks for the PEACHes, guys.

Zelkon

2012-09-18, 06:15 AM

I doubt I'll be able to make it in time...

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-18, 10:59 AM

Just have one more part of my class to polish off and they're done!

Incidentally, for those of you who are wondering, I gave the class seven levels in honor of the famous Seven-League Boots.

Cheesy74

2012-09-20, 10:01 PM

Am I still allowed to make modifications to my class until the "contest closed" thing goes out, or am I done since it's past the 20th?

PairO'Dice Lost

2012-09-20, 11:30 PM

Aaaand the Artificer of Kwalish squeaks in at the last minute, or possibly past it. The flavor parts at the end and the Modifications aren't as polished as I'd like, but it occurred to me right as I was starting on them that usually midnight means EST for these contests, and since I no longer live on the East Coast I don't actually have three more hours to polish them off. :smallredface:

Morph Bark

2012-09-21, 01:25 AM

Meanwhile, I've gotten stuck on my item, as I wanted to make both a new item and a PrC, then halfway realized that it was rather complicated (requiring several new skills and a feat as well) and the set-up of the item itself likely wouldn't be too popular. As such, it's taking too long just for the item itself, and I'll simply post it later outside of the contest.

ErrantX

2012-09-21, 10:02 AM

Contest is closed as of last night at midnight, I'll be reviewing them today and posting a voting thread. Likely a new contest as well if I'm feeling super froggy. I would have done it last night, but I just worked 4 straight 12 hour shifts and I wanted to throw myself bodily at my bed with intent to knock the consciousnesses from my form. :smallsigh:

Keep your eyes peeled for voting, and great entries folks, this was a tricky contest I know and you all definitely performed. :smallsmile:

-X

Cheesy74

2012-09-21, 10:18 AM

I made some minor formatting changes the morning of the deadline - I hope that won't be an issue.

MoleMage

2012-09-21, 03:41 PM

Any hints as to the next contest?

Cheesy74

2012-09-23, 09:14 PM

So, uh, voting thread...

ErrantX

2012-09-23, 10:16 PM

So, uh, voting thread...

Ask and ye shall receive.... VOTE NOW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256748)!

Sorry, I was late :smalleek:

Next contest coming up soon!

-X

ErrantX

2012-09-23, 10:33 PM

And... the new contest is... (predictably)

GitP Prestige Class Contest XXXV: The Last Harvest! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256751)

Halloween is fast approaching us here, and let's face it, most of us love candy and the chance to get into costumes and go out and about. So here's the chance for your D&D character to do it too!

Make a class that draws inspiration from Halloween or something from legends, stories and myths surrounding it. Be mindful and respectful of forum rules where applicable, but get into it. Undead, witches, monsters, ghosts and spirits, costumes and candy, you name it. Get to it!

-X

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-23, 11:25 PM

Argh, you punk! Where am I going to go with this?

bindin garoth

2012-09-23, 11:59 PM

Hmmmmm............

Might have a good idea for the next contest. I'll have to think about it some more first though.

sirpercival

2012-09-24, 06:12 AM

Ask and ye shall receive.... VOTE NOW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256748)!

Sorry, I was late :smalleek:

Next contest coming up soon!

-X

I take it you're not supposed to vote for yourself? Lol.

Zelkon

2012-09-24, 07:11 AM

I take it you're not supposed to vote for yourself? Lol.

You can. But then people don't like you.

sirpercival

2012-09-24, 07:15 AM

You can. But then people don't like you.

That's what I said! (Notice I didn't ask if you were allowed.)

Felyndiira

2012-09-24, 07:17 AM

MoleMage

2012-09-24, 11:04 AM

Something ghostly if I do make one. Maybe Warlock themed.

Zelkon

2012-09-24, 02:32 PM

Going to do something warlocky. Or perhaps duskblade? Going to have something to do with enchanting pumpkins.

sirpercival

2012-09-24, 02:36 PM

Trying to decide between something amusing/kitschy, and something genuinely spooky.

TheGeckoKing

2012-09-24, 03:51 PM

The competition theme seems perfect for a Shadowcaster PrC. Now, if I could just think of a theme......

NekoIncardine

2012-09-24, 04:00 PM

... Of course, with the nature of Halloween in pop cultures these days, all sorts of weird things could become justifiable.

I'm going to go for my first entry to the contests this time around, and I am definitely going to aim for the sillier side of things (but not a 'joke class' - it'll be something playable in real gameplay).

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-24, 04:06 PM

Alright folks, once again I need help settling on a concept - but with a slight twist: I'm throwing out an open challenge for someone to create one of the concepts I propose here (obviously not the one I'm doing) without changing its name. Garnering more votes than whatever I make is worth one free PEACH, regardless of how freaking busy I may or may not be.

Without further ado, the concepts on the table (that I need help choosing between, and that are open for a challenger to take up) are:

The Sisterhood of the Scourged Flesh studies loss, in its many forms. These roaming knights study grief and sorrow, pain and absence and starvation. Conferring with cursed souls and undead beings, they seek to make friends with pain so that it can never be forced upon them, and in the meantime wrack their enemies with foul curses of starvation and physical need that eventually curdle into spells of maddening grief and terror.

Curates of the Consecrated attend upon bones - the bones of saints, martyrs, heroes, and holy men. Knowing full well that both greedy adventurers and the forces of evil seek the corpses of those who died for the forces of justice and honor, the Curates seek out such buried heroes and become the living guardians of their remains, incorporating the sacred relics of these saints into their regalia and drawing power from the honored spirits of the saints they guard.

The Wastrel Witches are a whimsical bunch. They make candy, they say, as though it's the be-all and end-all of what they do. Though it is true, to an extent - the Wastrels (and Waifs, and Vagabonds, and....) travel from place to place, distilling their spells into highly magical candies that unleash their effects on those who eat them - often with incredible enhancements. What is the actual goal of this order? Only the Witches themselves know, and they aren't talking.

sirpercival

2012-09-24, 04:06 PM

PairO'Dice Lost

2012-09-24, 04:23 PM

Gotta love Halloween contests. I already have an idea for this one, though it still needs some fleshing out. Don't want to give too much away, but I will say that it's going to involve artificing and/or incarnum, and it would be either best friends or bitter rivals with Lord_Gareth's Wastrel Witches, if milord decides to do that one or someone else takes up the challenge.

MoleMage

2012-09-24, 04:53 PM

I'll take Lord_Gareth's challenge! But I won't vote on what he picks since I'd bias it so that I get the idea I wanted from him.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-24, 04:57 PM

I'll take Lord_Gareth's challenge! But I won't vote on what he picks since I'd bias it so that I get the idea I wanted from him.

Oh no, by all means, stake a claim. I'll choose from what's left.

MoleMage

2012-09-24, 05:03 PM

In that case:

Curates of the Consecrated attend upon bones - the bones of saints, martyrs, heroes, and holy men. Knowing full well that both greedy adventurers and the forces of evil seek the corpses of those who died for the forces of justice and honor, the Curates seek out such buried heroes and become the living guardians of their remains, incorporating the sacred relics of these saints into their regalia and drawing power from the honored spirits of the saints they guard.

I'd like to try my hand at this.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-24, 05:39 PM

Very well! Now I have only the Sisterhood and the Wastrel Witches to choose from, unless a second challenger would like to take that choice from me in the next 48 hours.

sirpercival

2012-09-24, 06:47 PM

OK I have my idea. This is going to be glorious.

hierophant

2012-09-24, 06:51 PM

Well, I'm actually running with my first, most obvious idea this time.
The Guiser gains minor shapeshifting abilities, can reward (treat, if you will) those who aid him, and punishes (some might say tricks) those who oppose him.

Cheesy74

2012-09-24, 07:39 PM

I think I'll sit this one out - I'm great at designing scary creatures but I always go too serious with my scary PrCs and they come out wonky.

NekoIncardine

2012-09-24, 07:40 PM

I actually think I'd like to take the Wastrel Witches concept, and hybridize it with an idea of my own I had to create a little something.

ErrantX

2012-09-24, 10:05 PM

I think I'm going to get started on this one early so I don't end up losing motivation as I start my standard procrastination cycle.

Dibs on Witch Hunter.

A question though - once we have a basic idea fleshed out, are we allowed to reserve additional posts for lists (maneuver lists, additional mechanic lists, etc.), or is that not allowed as well?

At least post something in the first one, then you can reserve another one. I don't think I've ever seen anyone need more than two before.

Something ghostly if I do make one. Maybe Warlock themed.

Ghost warlock = ftw in my book.

Going to do something warlocky. Or perhaps duskblade? Going to have something to do with enchanting pumpkins.

Pumpkins are ftw as well, I think that anyone who uses pumpkins will definitely get a thumbs up from me at least when it comes to the voting (for ErrantX's choice!)

The competition theme seems perfect for a Shadowcaster PrC. Now, if I could just think of a theme......

Anything using shadowcasters is awesome, I love them. Go for it, I encourage it!

Alright folks, once again I need help settling on a concept - but with a slight twist: I'm throwing out an open challenge for someone to create one of the concepts I propose here (obviously not the one I'm doing) without changing its name. Garnering more votes than whatever I make is worth one free PEACH, regardless of how freaking busy I may or may not be.

Without further ado, the concepts on the table (that I need help choosing between, and that are open for a challenger to take up) are:

Curates of the Consecrated attend upon bones - the bones of saints, martyrs, heroes, and holy men. Knowing full well that both greedy adventurers and the forces of evil seek the corpses of those who died for the forces of justice and honor, the Curates seek out such buried heroes and become the living guardians of their remains, incorporating the sacred relics of these saints into their regalia and drawing power from the honored spirits of the saints they guard.

This one. I like this one dude. Go nuts!

Gotta love Halloween contests. I already have an idea for this one, though it still needs some fleshing out. Don't want to give too much away, but I will say that it's going to involve artificing and/or incarnum, and it would be either best friends or bitter rivals with Lord_Gareth's Wastrel Witches, if milord decides to do that one or someone else takes up the challenge.

Incarnum love! I loves me some meldshaping, much beloved and under sourced.

Okay. There's my thoughts on the matter. I'm glad you all have ideas pumping, I was worried. Good deal!

-X

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-24, 10:35 PM

I actually think I'd like to take the Wastrel Witches concept, and hybridize it with an idea of my own I had to create a little something.

Just remember, if you want to compete for the free PEACH (no strings, no excuses) you need to A. Fulfill the concept (I tried to leave it open-ended) and B. Not change the name. If that's kosher, then HAVE AT IT.

Retrokinesis

2012-09-25, 08:30 AM

Alright, I think it's finally time for me to get in on one of these! Hmm...I'm thinking...some kind of "horror from the depths" that would cover Creature From the Black Lagoon and Scooby Doo-esque ghost divers both.

Edge

2012-09-25, 11:05 AM

Since I actually have an idea for this, I'm in.

Need to decide exactly how I'm going to approach these Redtalon Jacks, though.

Avalon®

2012-09-25, 12:22 PM

Interesting... I'll see if I can make something from the dead's perspective.

Now to see if the classes from Ghostwalk could be of some use.

NekoIncardine

2012-09-25, 01:06 PM

Just remember, if you want to compete for the free PEACH (no strings, no excuses) you need to A. Fulfill the concept (I tried to leave it open-ended) and B. Not change the name. If that's kosher, then HAVE AT IT.

... I wound up going in a very different direction as I started writing it, so I'm going to have to never-mind. Never mind that I looked up the word "Wastrel" and while it sounds nice, it... Doesn't seem to relate to the concept much?

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-25, 02:18 PM

I have an idea for a fear based fighter PrC. And yes, I mean that fighter. Likely with a reaper theme, those are always fun. I'm thinking of calling it either the Horror or the Nightmare.

sirpercival

2012-09-25, 02:49 PM

I have an idea for a fear based fighter PrC. And yes, I mean that fighter. Likely with a reaper theme, those are always fun. I'm thinking of calling it either the Horror or the Nightmare.

Other than being fighter focused, that seems somewhat similar to my Mawkin (though without the reaper theme, I'll admit).

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-25, 02:56 PM

I have an idea for a fear based fighter PrC. And yes, I mean that fighter. Likely with a reaper theme, those are always fun. I'm thinking of calling it either the Horror or the Nightmare.

Curse you, now you've got me wanting to do something with scythes!

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-25, 02:58 PM

Curse you, now you've got me wanting to do something with scythes!

Heh, when i said reaper themed, i meant it, Weapon Focus (Scythe) is one of the prerequisites.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-25, 02:59 PM

Heh, when i said reaper themed, i meant it, Weapon Focus (Scythe) is one of the prerequisites.

Well, let's see what you have going and then we'll see if the idea in my brain is similar or not.

ErrantX

2012-09-25, 03:07 PM

Interesting... I'll see if I can make something from the dead's perspective.

Now to see if the classes from Ghostwalk could be of some use.

Ghostwalk love, +1 Internet. :smallbiggrin:

I have an idea for a fear based fighter PrC. And yes, I mean that fighter. Likely with a reaper theme, those are always fun. I'm thinking of calling it either the Horror or the Nightmare.

I like this idea, I'm really interested in seeing it.

-X

Techwarrior

2012-09-25, 03:16 PM

I'm going to throw up a class based of the Day of the Dead. Speaking to the spirits, seeking their counsel, and defending/controlling them. All kinds of goodness, coolest bit is, you could still enter as a Sorcerer with tthe right ACFs.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2012-09-25, 03:22 PM

Alright folks, once again I need help settling on a concept - but with a slight twist: I'm throwing out an open challenge for someone to create one of the concepts I propose here (obviously not the one I'm doing) without changing its name. Garnering more votes than whatever I make is worth one free PEACH, regardless of how freaking busy I may or may not be.

The Sisterhood of the Scourged Flesh studies loss, in its many forms. These roaming knights study grief and sorrow, pain and absence and starvation. Conferring with cursed souls and undead beings, they seek to make friends with pain so that it can never be forced upon them, and in the meantime wrack their enemies with foul curses of starvation and physical need that eventually curdle into spells of maddening grief and terror.

Curates of the Consecrated attend upon bones - the bones of saints, martyrs, heroes, and holy men. Knowing full well that both greedy adventurers and the forces of evil seek the corpses of those who died for the forces of justice and honor, the Curates seek out such buried heroes and become the living guardians of their remains, incorporating the sacred relics of these saints into their regalia and drawing power from the honored spirits of the saints they guard.

The Wastrel Witches are a whimsical bunch. They make candy, they say, as though it's the be-all and end-all of what they do. Though it is true, to an extent - the Wastrels (and Waifs, and Vagabonds, and....) travel from place to place, distilling their spells into highly magical candies that unleash their effects on those who eat them - often with incredible enhancements. What is the actual goal of this order? Only the Witches themselves know, and they aren't talking.

...bloody hell. I know I didn't manage to get my act together for the last contest, but a challenge like this from my old friend Lord_Gareth, complete with pre-existing inspiration in the form of Gareth's teaser paragraphs?

Ooh. This WILL be fun. I hope in advance that no one minds if there are 2 or more classes with the same name, as this might just cause that to happen.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-25, 03:25 PM

...bloody hell. I know I didn't manage to get my act together for the last contest, but a challenge like this from my old friend Lord_Gareth, complete with pre-existing inspiration in the form of Gareth's teaser paragraphs?

Ooh. This WILL be fun. I hope in advance that no one minds if there are 2 or more classes with the same name, as this might just cause that to happen.

Just lemme know which one you want, my friend. Also, I'm about to call you. With a phone. BEWARE!

Morph Bark

2012-09-25, 03:26 PM

Ebon Initiate/Connoisseur hybrid PrC based on the boogeyman. Or something. My mind is throwing around ideas like random and I'm having trouble plucking one out coherently.

NekoIncardine

2012-09-25, 03:43 PM

So, yeah. After reading Lord Gareth's Wastrel Witches concept, and doing my own bits of research and thinking, I wound up coming with a very-tangentially-related concept.

Memeticists, AKA Memetic Witches, have the magical mental malady of Magic Related Memetic Disorder. Basically, these people who should perfectly well know better get the idea in their heads that witches gain power from various unusual habits, don't do the research, adopt pop-culture witch tendencies, and somehow actually turn it into real, if unusual, magical power. No one's quite sure how that works, particularly not real witches or the Memeticists themselves, but it's basically presumed that anyone powerful enough to be subject to the disorder - for it only affects those who have already attained quite a bit of arcane capability - basically subconsciously convinces the universe that this should work, so it does.

The strange part is that it then keeps on working when they, almost inevitably, figure out that it really shouldn't. Leading them to keep doing it while acknowledging that it makes no sense. The trick is to not think about it too hard, and just try the hat on already.

Amechra

2012-09-25, 04:11 PM

I'm curious; do any of the following PrCs sound like they would work for this theme?

The Surety-of-Harvest: You are a scarecrow who turns your field into a small fragment of the Hedge. Based around the fact that Halloween and Harvest coincide, and that scarecrows are just a tad bit creepy.

The Name-Me-Not: Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary, Bloody Mar-....-gurgle-.

The All-Hallowed Priest: Transformative Binder PrC that gives you the Saint template and which allows you to channel the sainted dead.

Because it is All-Hallows Eve, after all...

The Forlorn Gift-Taker:

"Trick-or-Treat
When shall we meet?
Give me something good to eat.

If you don't,
I won't care,
I'll just grab your pretty hair..."

Glimbur

2012-09-25, 04:11 PM

MoleMage

2012-09-25, 05:11 PM

...bloody hell. I know I didn't manage to get my act together for the last contest, but a challenge like this from my old friend Lord_Gareth, complete with pre-existing inspiration in the form of Gareth's teaser paragraphs?

Ooh. This WILL be fun. I hope in advance that no one minds if there are 2 or more classes with the same name, as this might just cause that to happen.

I've thought some, and would like to do the ghastly warlocks after all. You can take my spot if you like. If not, I'll still do it, because I said I would and I wouldn't deny the playground the right to see all of those awesome ideas in completion.

Xallace

2012-09-25, 05:34 PM

I'm going to make a bard based PrC that tells stories about monsters to make them less scary. It's the progression of Halloween to the modern day, after all. And it will be strange to make mechanically, which should be fun.

Conversely, I've already started drafting up a bard who focuses on making stories exceptionally scary. :smalltongue:

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-25, 07:17 PM

And posted the start of the Horror

sirpercival

2012-09-25, 07:18 PM

Mawkin's mechanics are finished if anyone would like to comment. Fluff will be up tonight or over the next couple of days.

Avalon®

2012-09-26, 02:45 AM

Ghostwalk love, +1 Internet. :smallbiggrin:
-X

So far it seems the only thing an Eidolon has going for it are the bonus ghost feats it gets. The feats are better than say fighter feats but we still have slightly the same problem in having no other class features.

Hmmm....Perhaps I should make the PrC into an Eidolon+ with a ghost feat every level...

Retrokinesis

2012-09-26, 07:17 AM

Ok, the Wakeless Titan is mechanically done if anyone wants to comment. I ended-up making it a martial adept PrC focused on wielding harpoons. Still have to finish most of the fluff though.

sirpercival

2012-09-26, 07:29 AM

Ok, the Wakeless Titan is mechanically done if anyone wants to comment. I ended-up making it a martial adept PrC focused on wielding harpoons. Still have to finish most of the fluff though.

I'll PEACH as soon as I'm done with Mawkin's fluff.

Hyooz

2012-09-26, 10:23 AM

Ugh, how did I let myself get beaten to Ghostly Warlocks?

Eh, it's probably for the best, as it might have ended up too similar to my Ghost Wyrm. Looking forward to what Mole Mage comes up with.

As for me, I'll likely be working with the Dragonfire Adept or Druid... haven't had any moments of full inspiration yet. We'll see what happens.

ErrantX

2012-09-26, 10:50 AM

Ebon Initiate/Connoisseur hybrid PrC based on the boogeyman. Or something. My mind is throwing around ideas like random and I'm having trouble plucking one out coherently.

This would be something interesting to see. Perhaps transformative into something like a devourer or something equally awful to behold :smallcool:

-X

Morph Bark

2012-09-26, 11:29 AM

This would be something interesting to see. Perhaps transformative into something like a devourer or something equally awful to behold :smallcool:

-X

Knowing me though, I'd be more likely to end up with something that wouldn't look bad in the Nightmare Before Christmas rather than something genuinely awful. :smallfrown:

ErrantX

2012-09-26, 12:15 PM

Knowing me though, I'd be more likely to end up with something that wouldn't look bad in the Nightmare Before Christmas rather than something genuinely awful. :smallfrown:

Aww, don't be down. See what you can put together, if you need help on it I'm sure everyone here can provide suggestions, and if you have questions about the Ebon Initiate, well, I can definitely try to answer them.

-X

PairO'Dice Lost

2012-09-26, 03:49 PM

So, I was looking through the contest thread to see what people have so far, and it looks like the Guiser is very similar to what I had in mind. I probably should have been more explicit when posting my first ideas to avoid overlap, but then I thought I'd have been able to get to it sooner than I have. I'm debating on whether to work up my idea anyway, and hope they're different enough to be worth it, or coming up with something new.

MoleMage

2012-09-26, 05:32 PM

Errant, you haven't updated your siggy or the initial post with the newest link yet. How am I supposed to be lazy instead of going into my UserCP?

ErrantX

2012-09-26, 06:22 PM

Errant, you haven't updated your siggy or the initial post with the newest link yet. How am I supposed to be lazy instead of going into my UserCP?

Ummm, check again man, it's updated, I just used it.

-X

MoleMage

2012-09-26, 07:10 PM

Hmmm...must have been the work computer or something...

Hyooz

2012-09-27, 08:39 PM

Retro: for the Wakeless Titan, look up Nautilus from League of Legends. He'd be perfect for an image.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-29, 12:37 AM

And the Horror is complete. If anyone is willing I would love to have a PEACH on it and will trade PEACHes to anyone that gives me one.

Hyooz

2012-09-29, 12:46 AM

I'm still between ideas. Being beaten to a ghastly warlock, I'm now considering a vampiric warlock... though I did just do a warlock PrC. Other base class options atm are druid and DFA because they're my huggy-buggy favorites.

Lord_Gareth

2012-09-29, 01:52 AM

...I have had a completely different idea than any of the ones I posted previously. If any of the contestants in it for the free PEACH would like to say I bargained in bad faith, let it be known that I accept that and won't hold anyone to it.

With that in mind, I do think I'll be building it off of my Malefactor.

Zelkon

2012-09-29, 07:49 AM

Pumpkin Lord coming right up! Based off the warlock (although anyone can enter and gain warlock like abilities) and centered on turning eldrich blast into a flaming Jack o' Lantern. And stuff.

sirpercival

2012-09-29, 08:48 AM

Edro, I'll happily PEACH the Horror. Would you mind giving the Mawkin a look-see? I know I still need to finish the closing fluff stuff.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-29, 11:48 AM

Edro, I'll happily PEACH the Horror. Would you mind giving the Mawkin a look-see? I know I still need to finish the closing fluff stuff.

I'll take a look at it later today.

Retrokinesis

2012-09-29, 04:24 PM

Retro: for the Wakeless Titan, look up Nautilus from League of Legends. He'd be perfect for an image.
He is (and the Reel Them In ability is based on his anchor toss) but he lacks the cheesy Halloween-ness of Captain Cutler's Ghost :P

I'll PEACH as soon as I'm done with Mawkin's fluff.
I shall PEACH your Mawkin (which sounds vaguely dirty) below!

Let's see...I really like the level 0 "resurrect into the class" idea. You should specify if it gives you any penalties or has a time limit, though, and you currently have it granting save bonuses at level 0 before you actually take the class.

Kinda weird that you suffer a disguise penalty for your shadow but not your demonic plant head. I like the shadowy grapply thing though, very evocative.

I like Mawkin Form. I think it might not last long enough to truly make an impact compared to barbarian rage, although it is quite a bit stronger so I'm not sure.

Stalking Midnight is a good idea but as written it basically alerts people to your presence while you're trying to sneak-up on them. Maybe make it so you can designate targets?Annnnndddd I'm an idiot who didn't see the "when you attack" part, ignore me.

Any particular reason for the "not in alternate form" restriction on Eerie Gaze?

Lurking Visions seems to have backwards fluff: People that can't detect you suffer a penalty because they see you :P

Secret Terror is nice but not particularly impressive as a capstone ability. Not sure what I would add except letting you identify casters like you can with Whispers in the Night. Maybe a type change to undead or plant (can never have enough plants!)?

All-in-all, I like it. My only problem is it doesn't seem sure whether it wants to be a stealth class or a combat class. It has some great combat abilities but meh HD and 3/4 BAB. Also some great stealth utility but only decent skills and none of the great rogue ones like Disable Device/Open Lock/UMD. You should clarify how the fear abilities stack/interact with each other and the Intimidate skill too.

And the Horror is complete. If anyone is willing I would love to have a PEACH on it and will trade PEACHes to anyone that gives me one.
Looking over it now, I'll write something up when I get a chance!

EDIT: PEACH for the Horror is done, see the box in my next post!

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-09-29, 07:52 PM

Retrokinesis

2012-09-29, 09:58 PM

Current plans are to work on a Binder who shunts his soul into a pseudo-phylactery to allow for a stronger bind to the vestiges. Names and flavor are probably going to come from Fall from Heaven 2.

EDIT:
PEACH for the Wakeless Titan

The image is cheesy, but that's classic Scooby Doo for you.

Requirements fit, save for the stone dragon requirement, especially considering the whole "must be on land to use these abilities" nonsense for the school. Note that I personally dislike the resurrection requirement, but it's Halloween, so that's expected.

Still needs skills, preferably four plus with swim present. :smalltongue: HD, BAB, and saves all look in order.

For proficiencies, you should also give them Light and Medium armor, if only on the off chance someone gets in without either.

Maneuvers and schools look in order.

Deep Shell makes sense and isn't bad, especially for a nautical campaign. The encumbrance is a nice, albeit minor plus.

Watery Grave is nice. Free swim speed and an odd subtype. Not bad. You should probably add "You may treat water as earth for the purposes of using Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances."

Blackwater Blood is nice. Free out of combat healing is always a plus.

Blackwater Body hits with Deep Shell.

Dredge Line reminds me of Bloodstorm Blade. Not much else to say.

Nautical Lights isn't much, but it helps shave the costs off of sunrods.:smalltongue:

Wounding Strikes is nice. Free +2 weapon property and an extra +2d6 are very nice.

I'm having a hard time with rating Bring Them Down. There already exists a slew of maneuvers that work via ranged attacks. Having more is nice, but it seems to counter the bonus from Wounding Strikes.

Frozen Abyss just means packing some extra fire resistance. There's already precedence with throwing mortals subtypes anyhow with the frozen/flaming rage feats. Not bad.

I feel like Reel Them In should be an earlier class feature, but otherwise love it. Also, isn't there a different harpoon that does just this?

Love Brutal Impalement. Insuring hurt is always good.

Having Unstoppable's regeneration stopped by positive energy seems odd to me, but that's about it. Solid class feature, for sure.

One With the Depths is a solid capstone.
Thanks! The Stone Dragon "must be on land" thing is so silly I didn't even know it existed :smallredface:! I picked that school because it fits the "brutal, massive hits" thing the WT has going on but I'll definitely add an exception into Watery Grave. Dredge Line and Bring Them Down are both straight out of Bloodstorm Blade, except not limited to 1 school because that PrC is...less than optimal. I wanted to give the class some ranged utility without making it a better choice than melee, considering the harpoon is technically a thrown weapon. Reel Them In is the defining ability, really, so I don't want it to come too early, but you think it's a bit too late as of now? Yeah, I wasn't really too sure about Unstoppable. I went with positive energy because the Depths seem more "antithetical to life" rather than "outright puppy-kicking evil" but Good would make sense too. Desecration damage from Sandstorm would probably make the most sense (and I think you already take more damage from it because of the Water subtype) but I'm not sure if it's too obscure to be balanced.

I really like the sound of the binder psuedo-lich; binder deserves all the love it can get. I could see the flavor being something like "shoving parts of your soul in a box so there's more room for the vestiges".

Horror PEACH is in this box!
Skills look good, though I'd add Tumble. Why the alignment restriction though? Terrifying people sounds pretty lawful to me and is basically what paladins do all the time.

Feed the Fear and Swift Demoralization let them compete with the Zhentarim Fighter in the fear department which is always a good thing. Immunity piercing for fear effects is fine (and necessary for the class) but should give a bonus to saves to things usually immune to them.

I don't like the "unconscious for 24 hours" thing because A. save-or-dies without the save part suck and B. I can't think of anything that actually *causes* the Cowering condition now that I think about it, except Turn Undead and exalted feats.

The extra damage on Deathscythe might be a bit much, although it might not be compared to a martial adept. Consider specifying it's NOT doubled on a critical hit if you're going to let the threat range bonus stack with Keen/Improved Critical.

Reaper's Shroud is thematic, gives you a reason not to dump Charisma, and lets you fight ghosts. I like it.

Dread Form is a nice little boost: not overpowered, but it's cheap to use and doesn't last long. Probably what I'd save most of my Presence for.

Extended Demoralization is good but you should probably clarify what happens to the duration if you Charisma bonus changes.

I think Dread Servant is too much. As written, it's an unlimited number of better cohorts with effects you can't even replicate yourself. Definitely put a number limit on it. As much as I love love love xenoalchemy, it seems tacked-on considering the Horror has zero grafting ability herself. Maybe bonus undead construction feats applied instead?

Enhanced Intimidation is either way too powerful or way too cheap. As-is it's basically 3 Presence to completely negate any opponent with no save. Or ALL of them if you spend 9 more to expand the range.

Ultimate Nightmare is a nice capstone, especially the incentives to keep your Presence up.

I like it. Good combatant with a bag of neat tricks that can cause some serious damage, with style! Few minor things you should take a look at and/or clarify, but it's pretty damn solid.

EdroGrimshell

2012-09-29, 10:49 PM

Horror PEACH is in this box!

Thank you for the PEACH, I shall return the favor once I finish modding my class a little.

Skills look good, though I'd add Tumble. Why the alignment restriction though? Terrifying people sounds pretty lawful to me and is basically what paladins do all the time.

Why Tumble, exactly? Nothing the Horror has uses it. And yea, the Nonlawful thing was actually a carry over from when this was a barbarian specific PrC.

Feed the Fear and Swift Demoralization let them compete with the Zhentarim Fighter in the fear department which is always a good thing. Immunity piercing for fear effects is fine (and necessary for the class) but should give a bonus to saves to things usually immune to them.

Swift Demoralization was taken straight from Zhentarim Fighter.

I don't agree with the usual +4 bonus creatures normally immune to fear, but I'll add it since it's usually a balance point.

I don't like the "unconscious for 24 hours" thing because A. save-or-dies without the save part suck and B. I can't think of anything that actually *causes* the Cowering condition now that I think about it, except Turn Undead and exalted feats.

There is a Save, the save for Daunting Presence which is, IIRC, 10 + Half HD + Cha bonus. The bonus from Presence adds half the horror's level to that as well. Cowering can be caused by cornering a Panicked opponent or by affecting them with another fear effect while they're panicked. This requires a lot of setup and a lot of presence use to be used.

The extra damage on Deathscythe might be a bit much, although it might not be compared to a martial adept. Consider specifying it's NOT doubled on a critical hit if you're going to let the threat range bonus stack with Keen/Improved Critical.

Yea, it's not multiplied, if it was on a scythe (a x4 multiplier) that'd be insane. I may cut the extra damage in half if it proves to much but for now I think it's alright as it is.

Reaper's Shroud is thematic, gives you a reason not to dump Charisma, and lets you fight ghosts. I like it.

Yea, this class is for the fighter that actually doesn't dump Cha or gets really lucky and rolls a good set of abilities.

Dread Form is a nice little boost: not overpowered, but it's cheap to use and doesn't last long. Probably what I'd save most of my Presence for.

That was the intention, a cheap boost that'd be the signature use of their presence.

Extended Demoralization is good but you should probably clarify what happens to the duration if you Charisma bonus changes.

Hm, I think the duration wouldn't change if the effect is already in play, but new uses would be reduced or increased as appropriate.

I think Dread Servant is too much. As written, it's an unlimited number of better cohorts with effects you can't even replicate yourself. Definitely put a number limit on it. As much as I love love love xenoalchemy, it seems tacked-on considering the Horror has zero grafting ability herself. Maybe bonus undead construction feats applied instead?

Actually, you're supposed to only be able to ever have one.

The Xenoalchemy was actually tacked on while I was looking for a way to actually make the Dread Servant seem inhuman. Any ideas?

Enhanced Intimidation is either way too powerful or way too cheap. As-is it's basically 3 Presence to completely negate any opponent with no save. Or ALL of them if you spend 9 more to expand the range.

A 20 on an Intimidate check does not guarantee the target being affected. Skills don't auto-succeed on a 20. And Enhanced Intimidation only works with Intimidate, not with Daunting Presence. Plus, IIRC, Intimidate allows a Will Save or an opposed skill check.

Ultimate Nightmare is a nice capstone, especially the incentives to keep your Presence up.

I was hoping for that to be the case, the fluff behind it was essentially how hard it is to overcome fear, so I thought a passive defensive option would be nice.

I like it. Good combatant with a bag of neat tricks that can cause some serious damage, with style! Few minor things you should take a look at and/or clarify, but it's pretty damn solid.

Domo arigato gozaimasu. I was aiming to make it a flavorful and potent fighter using fear (which is commonly ignored at higher levels) as their primary source of power. I'm glad to see I achieved that.

EDIT: I can't really expand on Thrice Dead Cat's analysis, he pretty much took the words out of my mouth.

EDIT2: New picture for the Horror

Zallera

2012-10-01, 12:51 PM

Contest really caught my interest so I thought I'd de-lurk and post something. Been quite a while since I've designed a class or prc so its nice to give it a go again. Probably will get some more work done on it tonight when im home

sirpercival

2012-10-01, 02:52 PM

I shall PEACH your Mawkin (which sounds vaguely dirty) below! Yay! Thank you!

Let's see...I really like the level 0 "resurrect into the class" idea. You should specify if it gives you any penalties or has a time limit, though, and you currently have it granting save bonuses at level 0 before you actually take the class. Other than having to take your next level as Mawkin, no it doesn't have any time limit, or penalties (though people are likely to remember you, I would think). As for the save bonuses, Risen Martyr gives them out too.

Kinda weird that you suffer a disguise penalty for your shadow but not your demonic plant head. I like the shadowy grapply thing though, very evocative. Yeah, well it's a lot easier to disguise a physical part of your body than your diaphanous shadow :) Glad you like the grappling!

I like Mawkin Form. I think it might not last long enough to truly make an impact compared to barbarian rage, although it is quite a bit stronger so I'm not sure. If you're going for an Intimidate build, you likely have at least a +3 Cha mod, and that's going to be enough for most battles I would think.

Any particular reason for the "not in alternate form" restriction on Eerie Gaze? I liked the fluff of it? EG was more to give you something to do when not transformed. Also, because EYE LAZORS

Lurking Visions seems to have backwards fluff: People that can't detect you suffer a penalty because they see you :P It's more that they can see you, but they can't detect you because their brains have rejected your existence as too terrifying. Other people (who do detect you) can handle it better and therefore suffer no penalty.

Secret Terror is nice but not particularly impressive as a capstone ability. Not sure what I would add except letting you identify casters like you can with Whispers in the Night. Well, it's the same as the Vecna-blooded ability (with slightly different fluff). Extremely powerful and useful in a high level game, I would think... your enemies will likely have access to divinations, no?

Maybe a type change to undead or plant (can never have enough plants!)? Hm... I would think aberration would make more sense, but either way I didn't really see this as a transformational class (or at least, not in that way). I'll see if I can think of an additional piece for a capstone.

EDIT: I added a possibility to sense the caster for the divination stuff, and another capstone which made so much sense I can't believe I didn't think of it before.

All-in-all, I like it. My only problem is it doesn't seem sure whether it wants to be a stealth class or a combat class. It has some great combat abilities but meh HD and 3/4 BAB. Also some great stealth utility but only decent skills and none of the great rogue ones like Disable Device/Open Lock/UMD. You should clarify how the fear abilities stack/interact with each other and the Intimidate skill too. It's kind of both, you know? A stealthy grappler. Does it bother you enough to want to change it? I would probably increase the BAB first and foremost, for grappling purposes, but I dunno if it's necessary. And is it unclear how the fear stuff interacts? I thought it was pretty straightforward in stacking like everything else. Nonstacking fear kinda sucks.

Amechra

2012-10-01, 11:23 PM

I should have the Name-Me-Not up by the end of tomorrow, with their ability to travel through mirrors, possess your reflection, and slowly replace your relationships with other people with mockeries and twisted, skewed, funhouse versions.

It will also be able to do that whole "tear your eyes out thing."

Question...

Should I feel afraid that the only PrCs that I can ever finish are Warlock PrCs?

Hyooz

2012-10-02, 01:46 AM

What I'm going to call Deadman 1.0 is up and ripe for PEACHing. I'll probably make some tweaks myself over the next few days, and hopefully get around to commenting on more of the other entries this time. But for now, thar she blows.

EdroGrimshell

2012-10-02, 12:22 PM

Hyooz

2012-10-02, 02:47 PM

Deadman Wonderland, awesome!

Loose inspiration, but yeah, once I had settled on a vampiric knight who wields blood as a weapon, I pretty much had to work the references in there somewhere :smalltongue:

Amechra

2012-10-02, 10:42 PM

Glimbur

2012-10-06, 02:02 PM

I still need the rest of the fluff, but can someone vet the class features for the Name-Me-Not? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13990544&postcount=14)

I feel like I'm missing something, but I don't know what...

Sure thing!

Entry pretty much requires warlock who has spent some skills and feats on this truenaming fix you link. Also, dying in front of a mirror isn't generally done on accident. It's cool and flavorful and everything, but I might replace it with a ritual you have to do between two mirrors before you die. That makes it more feasible to enter the class. Earliest entry is Warlock 3/ Truenamer 2.

Skills look about right, though Knowledge(all) seems a little broad. Absolute Limit grows as quickly as it does for a (fixed) Truenamer. d8 hit die is very gish.

Half BAB, good Fort and Will, 8/10 Truenaming and Invoking. Better saves than either Warlock or Truenamer, but worse BAB than warlock. It's probably alright, but 8/10 casting is pretty good for a theurge-type. It doesn't advance eldritch blast though, so my worries about being too powerful are unfounded. And you lose your blast anyway... interesting.

The color of your class features is hard to read on white. Consider a darker blue.

The Spectre Bound in Glass is really cool, but mirrors are quite easy to break. This seems like a liability in vanilla combat.

Eldritch Speaker is a nice boost; essences on top of Utterances means you can do more things.

What is the bonus used for Your Reflection Knows? I would assume Class Level + Int Mod, but that won't give you very high results.

Eye of Vitality is a minor boost.

Reflections Show Truth is a weird ability; it seems like a party buff provided the party has Spot. I'm not sure it really fits the theme of the class.

All Mirrors Are One: I was waiting for this feature. It helps some with the vulnerability of mirrors.

Reflect the Heart is very flavorful, but I question the utility. You're level 8 or so, and you get a limited Charm Person?

No Need For Eyes is pretty cool. It fits the otherworldly nature of the class you seem to be going for.

Deceive Watcher is nice for denying that abilities came from you. This, combined with utterances and invocations and such, makes this a credible BBEG.

Illusions Can Kill is a save-or-die at will at level 9, but it's a double-save and so I'm not worried about balance. Fits the theme and is cool.

Eye of Ethics is a minor boost. Thematic.

Visions are Prophecy has nice synergy with the expanded range you get as you level. Quite useful, fits the theme, blah blah it's good.

Who Is The Image seems too risky to use. I might instead incapacitate the Name-Me-Not for an hour if the duplicate dies while possessed.

Reality Reflects The Image is another great ability for a BBEG.

Eye of Nomenclature fits the theme.

Broken Mirrors Reflect Dreams is another class feature that lines up well with the class and is very stylish.

Lord of All Perceived is a small boost, but it fits with everything else that is going on.

Speak My Name is cool.

Too Many Eyes is kind of lackluster at this level.

Fluff will happen eventually.
Closing thoughts
It feels like the class is pulling in too many directions. It's a mixture of this homebrew truenamer and warlock, except only a few class features have anything to do with their warlock powers. Then there is this theme of 'reflections knowing truth' and also the evil monster in a mirror, which hangs together well. Lots of the class features build on each other, which is great but requires more re-reading to really understand the class. I'd drop the warlock angle and maybe throw in more powers, I haven't read the truenamer fix enough to see if this class could be happy with just that.

It's also kind of a terrible class for a normal PC in a normal campaign, but that's ok.

Avalon®

2012-10-06, 02:13 PM

Still working on the Honored Dead. Suffice to say, it'll be getting a faster bonus ghost feat progression as well as some power boosts since the Eidolon as well as the Eidoloncer are so blaaaaand.

Amechra

2012-10-06, 02:56 PM

Sure thing!

Entry pretty much requires warlock who has spent some skills and feats on this truenaming fix you link. Also, dying in front of a mirror isn't generally done on accident. It's cool and flavorful and everything, but I might replace it with a ritual you have to do between two mirrors before you die. That makes it more feasible to enter the class. Earliest entry is Warlock 3/ Truenamer 2.

Skills look about right, though Knowledge(all) seems a little broad. Absolute Limit grows as quickly as it does for a (fixed) Truenamer. d8 hit die is very gish.

Half BAB, good Fort and Will, 8/10 Truenaming and Invoking. Better saves than either Warlock or Truenamer, but worse BAB than warlock. It's probably alright, but 8/10 casting is pretty good for a theurge-type. It doesn't advance eldritch blast though, so my worries about being too powerful are unfounded. And you lose your blast anyway... interesting.

The color of your class features is hard to read on white. Consider a darker blue.

The Spectre Bound in Glass is really cool, but mirrors are quite easy to break. This seems like a liability in vanilla combat.

Eldritch Speaker is a nice boost; essences on top of Utterances means you can do more things.

What is the bonus used for Your Reflection Knows? I would assume Class Level + Int Mod, but that won't give you very high results.

Eye of Vitality is a minor boost.

Reflections Show Truth is a weird ability; it seems like a party buff provided the party has Spot. I'm not sure it really fits the theme of the class.

All Mirrors Are One: I was waiting for this feature. It helps some with the vulnerability of mirrors.

Reflect the Heart is very flavorful, but I question the utility. You're level 8 or so, and you get a limited Charm Person?

No Need For Eyes is pretty cool. It fits the otherworldly nature of the class you seem to be going for.

Deceive Watcher is nice for denying that abilities came from you. This, combined with utterances and invocations and such, makes this a credible BBEG.

Illusions Can Kill is a save-or-die at will at level 9, but it's a double-save and so I'm not worried about balance. Fits the theme and is cool.

Eye of Ethics is a minor boost. Thematic.

Visions are Prophecy has nice synergy with the expanded range you get as you level. Quite useful, fits the theme, blah blah it's good.

Who Is The Image seems too risky to use. I might instead incapacitate the Name-Me-Not for an hour if the duplicate dies while possessed.

Reality Reflects The Image is another great ability for a BBEG.

Eye of Nomenclature fits the theme.

Broken Mirrors Reflect Dreams is another class feature that lines up well with the class and is very stylish.

Lord of All Perceived is a small boost, but it fits with everything else that is going on.

Speak My Name is cool.

Too Many Eyes is kind of lackluster at this level.

Fluff will happen eventually.
Closing thoughts
It feels like the class is pulling in too many directions. It's a mixture of this homebrew truenamer and warlock, except only a few class features have anything to do with their warlock powers. Then there is this theme of 'reflections knowing truth' and also the evil monster in a mirror, which hangs together well. Lots of the class features build on each other, which is great but requires more re-reading to really understand the class. I'd drop the warlock angle and maybe throw in more powers, I haven't read the truenamer fix enough to see if this class could be happy with just that.

It's also kind of a terrible class for a normal PC in a normal campaign, but that's ok.

Yay, this one actually got FEEDBACK! I'll probably fix some things soon.

Lord_Gareth

2012-10-06, 05:13 PM

Any chance of getting an extension on this round, in light of the forums being down for three days?

Zelkon

2012-10-06, 06:03 PM

Any chance of getting an extension on this round, in light of the forums being down for three days?

I second the movement.

Zallera

2012-10-06, 06:16 PM

If anyone wants to critique what I've got done so far I'd really appreciate it. Ive got some ideas for the higher level abilities, some of which will be a progressively stronger version of the nerfed ghost walk the class has atm, with definite negative energy themes. also in the progress of re-working the fluff, sort of aiming for a rogue prc that uses the powers of the undead to hunt down the undead and put them to their final rest as well as evil necromancers/priests who would disturb the souls of the dead. Also considering moving ghost scarred from a bonus perk to a class requirement. also thinking about lowering sneak attack bonus to a max of 3 or 4d6.

Owrtho

2012-10-07, 01:15 AM

Well, I updated my entry with most of the class abilities I can think fo at the moment. Fluff will be added soon. Feedback on the abilities would be appreciated though. Considering adding more mask abilities, though can't think of any at the moment. As is, I'm not entirely sure if I managed to balance things out well enough. The costume prosthesis graft penalties could also likely use some changing.
Anyway, all that said I think the class could be played a few way, from making useful masks for other, cursed masks for others, face stealer, masks for yourself, or being the maker of the sorting hat.

I likewise support the idea of a minor extension to the deadline given the forums going down for a few days.

Edit:... Huh, I just realized that there are 3 entries that each use different subsystems made by Kellus. Perhaps he is the patron hombrewer of Halloween.

Owrtho

JoshuaZ

2012-10-07, 09:11 AM

Wow, there are a lot of entries here that look really good. I don't think I'm going have time to make one this round, but I'll try to PEACH some of them.

For no clear reason I'm going to start with Amechra's Name-Me-Not:

It may make sense to link to Too Many Eyes so people know where that's from.

I think you don't need to lose as many caster levels as you do; having dual progression at 7 and 10 is probably fine.

Speak My Name is well done- I'd suggest also something additional to happen when one says the name three times, like the speaker gets a penalty to all saves from things done by the Name-Me-Not for 24 hours or something like that.

Overall I like this one quite a bit.

Amechra

2012-10-07, 02:17 PM

Thanks! I'll do more work when I have time.

TheGeckoKing

2012-10-07, 03:56 PM

Change of plan - school's taking up too much time for the big, long sprawling PrC I wanted to do, so I've made a short and simple Slendy PrC, which I did always want to do anyway.

Tanuki Tales

2012-10-07, 07:52 PM

Just want to give a friendly heads up, because I've already done this with my contest, note permission or take down your photos (unless they're public domain/non-copyrighted/free use/etc.). Roland is being quite serious over that warning he gave back in September and I'd hate to see anyone have an infraction or worse tossed their way over something as silly as prettying up a homebrew entry.

Edit: And to be clear, he means you literally need their permission. Just linking to the artist or mentioning it's their work isn't good enough, you need their actual go ahead to post it.

sirpercival

2012-10-07, 09:10 PM

For Mawkin, the artist says on his website that it's okay to post with attribution. Do I need to go and get the permission more officially than that??

Tanuki Tales

2012-10-07, 09:24 PM

For Mawkin, the artist says on his website that it's okay to post with attribution. Do I need to go and get the permission more officially than that??

I think that falls under "free use", but I'd ask Roland. I was just speaking in general to all the wonderful folks here, not anyone specific. :smallredface:

Spate

2012-10-07, 11:01 PM

How do I tell if my picture is free use?

Also, finished up the mechanics of the class, if people want to look at it I would not mind it.

Amphetryon

2012-10-08, 10:23 AM

Found myself inspired by this one, so I tossed up a Treat Master prestige class. I'd be interested to know what folks think of it so far.