GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

[sirpercival]

Found myself inspired by this one, so I tossed up a Treat Master prestige class. I'd be interested to know what folks think of it so far.

You're welcome to make use of Mystic Brew (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7527.msg116255#msg116255).

[Hyooz]

I'm going to do some quick commentaries myself. If I skip yours, I apologize, and it's likely because your class is based on another piece of homebrew and I'm just not comfortable giving in-depth critiques on material I'm not really familiar with. Again, it's nothing against you or the work you used, I just don't have time to become mechanically familiar enough with these base class systems to offer critique I'm comfortable giving.

Mawkin
I like requirements like yours. It isn't mechanically difficult to get into, but it is thematically difficult to get into. Unlike even some WotC products (*cough*bloodmagus*cough* That said, there aren't really rules for decapitation, so it might require a little more DM fiat than most.

I like the level 0 concept, it works well to make entry less mechanically weird. Grasping Vines is fun, but 10+ Cha mod is... not a lot of strength for grappling. That might be intentional, but I thought I'd note it. Still, it's a fun 1st level ability.

The rest of the abilities seem well put together, IMO, and fit the theme very well. I don't notice anything overly offensive balance-wise (especially considering you have to spend two move actions to get to the real power here) and they're as thematic as they are functional.

The main concern I have here is who would take the class. It has a mix of abilities, but the meat of the abilities need you to be in the fray thrashing away with vines, but you have a fairly low HD and poor BAB. The strength bonuses certainly help that, but it's still an issue. Casty classes won't bother (other than thematically) and if I had a major problem with the class it's that it doesn't really *fit* in most standard DnD games. This is entirely a personal issue, I'll admit, and the class has it's role, and fills them well, but those roles don't mesh well in most games. It's esoteric, IMO, but that's not a REAL problem so much as a personal nit I pick off of things.

Overall, I like it. Nice work.


And I have to pass three classes before I hit one that's finished >.>

Wakeless Titan
Another fun thematic death requirement, though mechanically it is stricter than the Mawkin. Still, it works, and firmly establishes the type of class this is and the type of character that can/should enter it. I like it when prereqs tell you as much about the class as description, so good work here.

I'm a little disappointed Dredge Line doesn't allow you to drag people back to you, but that's just the Nautilus fan in me coming out. The early class abilities do a good job of being interesting enough and enhancing your capabilities to go beyond just being "you can now function underwater" abilities, which tend to be kind of boring. Makes you a really terrifying force underwater... which most forces underwater are anyway.

THERE'S the dragging ability. I knew it'd be there. The move action makes for an interesting balance point. You could just swim over there, but why bother?

Generally, I love it. It has the unfortunate "restriction" to underwater, but it functions nearly as effectively on land, which I love, it helps dodge that particular issue of becoming too esoteric. You do still become a monstrosity powered by the Things-That-Are-Underwater but it's still functional for a lot of situations. I dig the hell out of this. Yup.

[sirpercival]

Mawkin Thank you!!


I like requirements like yours. It isn't mechanically difficult to get into, but it is thematically difficult to get into. Unlike even some WotC products (*cough*bloodmagus*cough* That said, there aren't really rules for decapitation, so it might require a little more DM fiat than most. There are two places which have decapitation rules: vorpal swords & hydras. But yes, it's more fiat-y than normal... of course, it's also likely that this class will be an NPC, simply from the flavor, which means DM fiat is fine ;)


I like the level 0 concept, it works well to make entry less mechanically weird. Grasping Vines is fun, but 10+ Cha mod is... not a lot of strength for grappling. That might be intentional, but I thought I'd note it. Still, it's a fun 1st level ability. No it isn't, though (a) with a fear build you'll want a good Cha, and (b) it gets all of your grapple modifiers, and if you want to make best use of the class, you'll have some of those.


The rest of the abilities seem well put together, IMO, and fit the theme very well. I don't notice anything overly offensive balance-wise (especially considering you have to spend two move actions to get to the real power here) and they're as thematic as they are functional. Good! I'm glad.


The main concern I have here is who would take the class. It has a mix of abilities, but the meat of the abilities need you to be in the fray thrashing away with vines, but you have a fairly low HD and poor BAB. The strength bonuses certainly help that, but it's still an issue. Casty classes won't bother (other than thematically) and if I had a major problem with the class it's that it doesn't really *fit* in most standard DnD games. This is entirely a personal issue, I'll admit, and the class has it's role, and fills them well, but those roles don't mesh well in most games. It's esoteric, IMO, but that's not a REAL problem so much as a personal nit I pick off of things. Yeah... I'm still trying to figure that out. I may bump BAB and/or HD...


Overall, I like it. Nice work. Thanks!

[NekoIncardine]

Time to just toss what I have and see if I can get ideas as to where to fix the class up while I prepare to finish it.

I think this is my first PrC in five years, jeeze. Time to tune. A lot.

[Lord_Gareth]

Eh, I can't come up with something that I can flesh out in time. Looks like this one's not for me.

[NekoIncardine]

Eh, I can't come up with something that I can flesh out in time. Looks like this one's not for me.

Sadness. :(

[Owrtho]

Well, I updated my entry. Mostly just adding fluff, but added two new mask abilities (for those curious, they are the prop mask and the feature mask). Anyway, feedback would be appreciated.

Owrtho

[MoleMage]

I'm not having much inspiration on the ghosty warlock. I'll keep mulling it over for the next week or so until this closes, but it looks like I might also be sitting this one out.

[Owrtho]

Made a few more minor changes to the mask maker. Made it quicker to put on/remove masks with help, made suppressed masks able to become unsuppressed, and added another feat for if you want to wear masks on top of more masks (as well as some minor changes to two of the other feats). Might have been another minor change or two I can't recall. As always, and PEACHing of feedback is appreciated.

Owrtho

[Felyndiira]

I'm having a lot of difficulties with writing the witch hunter. The charm lists are relatively easy and brief, although the abilities are a bit of a nightmare to find the right words for =x.

Probably should have picked something a bit simpler, although I'll try my best to trudge to the end.

[ErrantX]

Less than a week folks! Let's make sure all the background fluff, extra rules, etc are done and posted so we don't lose any of this work before the voting!

-X

[NekoIncardine]

Gotta finish the sample NPC, make a few corrections... And then go with what I've got because I'm not braining too well with my PrC. Sadly.

[Amechra]

Hey, I've done some revisions to the Name-Me-Not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13990544#post13990544)! I hope it is a bit creepier now.

Also, I like the Memetic Witch, or at least the Memes.

Now I want to do a base class with the same general idea...

[Techwarrior]

I'm going to finish mine up tonight and then start a PEACH-a-thon tomorrow.

[Zallera]

Pretty well done my entry now except for fluff, although i have been thinking of adding in a lesser version of sphere of sorrow. If anyone is willing to PEACH my class, somethings in particular I'm looking for criticism on is if skills are too weak/powerful or need more/fewer uses per day

[bindin garoth]

I'm going to have to withdraw from the contest. I have several more ideas for the class, but I've currently hit a brick wall. And in combination with IRL issues (stupid Real Life interfering with my D&D addiction), and with my base class I'm working on, The Spellbound. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252415)

I probably won't be back for a while, unless ErrantX posts a PRC contest I just can't resist :smalltongue:

Good luck everyone!

[dragonjek]

Whew...

I almost didn't make it in time!

I'm afraid the inspiration might be too obvious, but I think I've altered the Pumpkin King enough to make it wholly unique.

Not enough time to make any changes on it, I suppose, but still...

Also, can I just point out that I'm really, really impressed by the Name-Me-Not and Macabre Mask Maker?

Thanks!

[Zallera]

Finally finished my entry, was nice to work on something D&D related again.

Really liking the macabre mask maker too!

[ErrantX]

3 hours left!

Make sure you get your last minute edits and fixes done, because I'll be cutting through it mercilessly this evening. If you didn't make the cut because of unfinished work, I do apologize, but them's the breaks.

-X

[Retrokinesis]

Finished all the Wakeless Titan fluff with a few hours to spare! Looking forward to seeing how people react; I'm seeing a ton of great entries this time.

[Techwarrior]

I had completely forgotten to do the last 2 sections of my entry! Good thing I got that fixed up.

[ErrantX]

Voting thread will come up at some point today, new contest some time this week. Good job folks!

-X

[ErrantX]

Voting thread is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259298)

Go vote! Expect a new contest sometime this week!

-X

[sirpercival]

Hey Edro, while reading through the prcs to figure out my votes, I just realized I promised to give you a PEACH of the Horror that I crapped out on...

Two quick notes (I know you can't edit now, but afterwards):
~You give no info on how Presence actually works. Do you get it per day like pp? Per encounter like Inspiration? Per level like craft reserve? Can you recover it? Do you get bonus Presence for a high Cha?
~Try rewriting Feed the Fear using a table; it's a little convoluted as-is.

Love the class, though. A Mawkin/Horror would be about as terrifying as a melee class could get.

EDIT: Just had an idea for a gestalt Totemist/Mawkin // Amaranth Eclipse (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Amaranth_Eclipse_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)) Warblade/Horror

[Retrokinesis]

Hyooz - Found some stuff you should clarify with Deadman.
Lifeblood: Does this stack for caster level too? If not, it seems kinda useless. If so, why not just give it regular spellcasting advancement?

Vitae: I assume this is equal to or greater than the TARGET'S Constitution score for dealing damage and your own if you're taking damage? Also, giving up your swift action for (Con mod) healing seems like a bad idea. Going by Enlivened Vitae, I'm guessing that's a typo.

Branch of Sin: When you first get the enhanced version of this ability, you're not actually able to create any enhanced objects (class level 5 - 5 = 0). You should probably specify a minimum of +1 or else move the ability to level 6. Also, the paragraph beginning with "To succeed at..." says "shadow-crafted item" which I assume is a copypaste error.

Enlivened Vitae: Considering normal Vitae healing is Con mod, and this is double Con SCORE, that's a huge improvement. With 18 Con you go from 4 healing to 36 for example. This is why I assume Vitae is a typo and you meant Con score not mod there. :)

Hematyc Detonation: You should clarify exactly what "negating any effects" means. Do you respawn with your current health as well?

[sirpercival]

Zallera: 5 skill points per level??

[EdroGrimshell]

Two quick notes (I know you can't edit now, but afterwards):
~You give no info on how Presence actually works. Do you get it per day like pp? Per encounter like Inspiration? Per level like craft reserve? Can you recover it? Do you get bonus Presence for a high Cha?
~Try rewriting Feed the Fear using a table; it's a little convoluted as-is.

It was meant to be per day and you get extra presence equal to your Cha bonus. I had that on the class, but it looks like it got cut off. My original draft on Notepad still has it.

Yea, will do that when I put it on the boards after the contest/voting is over.

Also, would you mind taking a look at my Corpse PrC (see my sig)? I'd like your opinion on it.

[Zallera]

Zallera: 5 skill points per level??

yeah i was doing a lot of last minute editing right before the dead line and i must have messed that up >.>

[ErrantX]

Alright, votes are tallied and cast, and I've got the results. My reasons are in the vote thread, but overall, a tie was reached and I broke it by choosing the Mawkin by sirpercival as the winner, with 2nd place to Amechra and 3rd place to Hyooz. Hyooz wins Errant's Pick with his Deadman class.

Next contest should be up tonight. Speculations? :smalltongue:

-X

[sirpercival]

Alright, votes are tallied and cast, and I've got the results. My reasons are in the vote thread, but overall, a tie was reached and I broke it by choosing the Mawkin by sirpercival as the winner, with 2nd place to Amechra and 3rd place to Hyooz. Hyooz wins Errant's Pick with his Deadman class.

Next contest should be up tonight. Speculations? :smalltongue:

-X

o.O wow! Thank you everyone (and X)!! I would not have minded losing to the Name-Me-Not, it's an impressive class.

I speculate that the new one will be about turkey.

[Hyooz]

Wow, very close contest this time. Great work, guys (and gals.)

Next contest prediction? Gratefulness. Let's go with that. Like... a knight who had his life saved by someone years ago and now lives his life in honor of that other person.

Or... y'know. Feathers maybe?

[Amechra]

...and I don't mind coming in 2nd.

This was an amazingly close contest. I look forward to the next one. It will probably be Warlock based (all contests are Warlock based, as far as I'm concerned...)

[Lord_Gareth]

The next contest will be themed around murdering celestials and converting them into other things, like spells, items, or songs of pain that scorch the minds of the righteous and send them scrabbling to the Earth trying to reach Hell and escape such inexpressable sorrow.

[Hyooz]

The next contest will be themed around murdering celestials and converting them into other things, like spells, items, or songs of pain that scorch the minds of the righteous and send them scrabbling to the Earth trying to reach Hell and escape such inexpressable sorrow.

I already have an idea.

Get ready to face The Snuggle Bug

[Morph Bark]

I already have an idea.

Get ready to face The Snuggle Bug

The name suggests fitting more to a theme we'd best reserve for February. :smalltongue:

[sirpercival]

And my idea is the Avatar of Lollipops.

Oh god, we should totally make one that's Candyland-themed. Or maybe just themed around childhood board games. Chutes & Ladders, Sorry, etc.

[ErrantX]

New contest is up!


GitP PrC Contest XXXVI: Traditionally Speaking! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260445)


Forces of Order rejoice! The theme is the Lawful Alignment!

-X

[Amechra]

Aww, I was all set to make a PrC that had THAC0 and 5 diffferent kinds of saves, too...

[ErrantX]

Aww, I was all set to make a PrC that had THAC0 and 5 diffferent kinds of saves, too...

I almost still want you to do that, ya know :P

-X

[Amechra]

I'll do it as a base class some time, alright?

Now, to design something that perverts the concept of "Lawful" into something corrupt and alien...

[Lord_Gareth]

I'll do it as a base class some time, alright?

Now, to design something that perverts the concept of "Lawful" into something corrupt and alien...

Modrons? Devils? Illithids?

[Hyooz]

The Judge Dredd concept might be a bit overdone, but it is such a classic. I'm leaning toward a Psionic class with some Dredd-ish leanings, but it is early in the concept phase, so nothing solid yet.

[Owrtho]

Now, to design something that perverts the concept of "Lawful" into something corrupt and alien...

A class that sets and revokes its own laws on whims and forces others nearby to obey them or suffer various penalties?

Owrtho

[NekoIncardine]

The hardest part of homebrew contests: Trying to judge other's works given my own odd preferences. I probably will not vote frequently.

One concept for a later PrC contest: Joke classes that can seriously (or at least stylishly) work in common D&D settings. As in, there must be obvious humorous elements, but the class as a whole should work regardless of whether or not the campaign is a humorous one.

[Zallera]

i was hopping this contest would be all about turkeys :smallbiggrin:

[FireInTheSky]

The hardest part of homebrew contests: One concept for a later PrC contest: Joke classes that can seriously (or at least stylishly) work in common D&D settings. As in, there must be obvious humorous elements, but the class as a whole should work regardless of whether or not the campaign is a humorous one.

You mean, like the Shamurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255578)? (Build (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6844.msg110089#msg110089) - mmx)

[sirpercival]

i was hopping this contest would be all about turkeys :smallbiggrin:

Hey Z, unless you're talking about one of several people, you probably mean "Shepherd".

[sirpercival]

You mean, like the Shamurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255578)? (Build (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6844.msg110089#msg110089) - mmx)

Lol. Thanks for the plug :D

[sirpercival]

No one thinks of themselves as Evil; most just live their days out, trying their best to follow the laws of the land, keeping their heads down.

But some see the problems with the world; that no-one is good enough. They see that they have to fix this problem, even if they themselves have to go to the Abyss.

After all, a glorious bastion of good like them has to be an angel, right? And what better place for an angel than in hell, trying to help the devils?


I love this SO. MUCH.

[Lord_Gareth]

Hey Amechera - was restricting your class only to LE warlocks done on purpose?

[Amechra]

Yes. Yes it was.

What, you thought Paladins were good? Don't make me laugh!

What's one of the gods that they are stereotypically aligned with?

That's right, Pelor.

I.e., the Burning Hate.

Plus, this is a lawful competition, and it's going to be all about redefining how they see good and evil so that they see Law as Good and Chaos as Evil.

So, as far as they are concerned, they are Lawful Good. Everyone who's Lawful must be Lawful Good, by definition.

Paladins have never been good at that "nuances" thing.

[sirpercival]

My entry is going to be less serious this time. Just warning you all.

EDIT: Though, maybe not. Depends on if this current idea works or not.

EDIT2: Scrapping originally silly idea, found an awesome one.

[Lord_Gareth]

'Kay, I was just checking, y'know? Why not make the Lawful Evil thing explicit, since there's no way to have 3d6 EBlast and not be evil?

[Amechra]

It'll be a class feature.

[TheGeckoKing]

The Ironwill is (mostly) up! I just have to finalize how i'm going to tie skill checks to the themes for some of the abilities, I guess. Scaling? Adjustable? Fixed? Bah, I have no idea.
EDIT: The Ironwill is complete(ish)! Yay!

[Glimbur]

I'm going to do a thing with Mark of Justice. I'm not entirely sure what yet, but it will be a thing.

[Keynub]

Hello there.

So, I've decided to give it a shot. If anyone wants to critique the Enforcer of the Continuum, fluff, powers, mechanics, requirements, feel free. Have no pity.
I'll gladly return the favor (but I don't have much experience so my remarks will mostly be fluff-related).
Thanks in advance!

[Zallera]

Hey Z, unless you're talking about one of several people, you probably mean "Shepherd".

thanks for pointing that out, spell check corrected me with Shepard the first time i mis-spelled it so ive just been using that.

Also Amechra your idea gave me the chuckles ( the evil ones ):smallamused:

Edit: thank god for being able to dump my post into word an using replace :smallsmile:

[Fable Wright]

I actually went and submitted a class this time. I had wanted to post it for The Last Harvest, but there wasn't enough time left in the contest to get it done. Happy coincidence, then, that it still fits this theme...

Also, as I haven't really homebrewed anything in a long while, I'd like to trade PEACHes with someone. I'm not too sure about the balance level and wording on some of the abilities, and another pair of eyes would be good...

[Amphetryon]

. . . And my computer glitched and erased what I had for this contest so far. :smallfurious:

Starting over.

[Keynub]

I actually went and submitted a class this time. I had wanted to post it for The Last Harvest, but there wasn't enough time left in the contest to get it done. Happy coincidence, then, that it still fits this theme...

Also, as I haven't really homebrewed anything in a long while, I'd like to trade PEACHes with someone. I'm not too sure about the balance level and wording on some of the abilities, and another pair of eyes would be good...

Edit : Spoilered.

I'm not too knowledgeable about ToB, so I'll pass on the martial initiator entry and only consider a warlock entry (which, I feel, suits the class best.)

So, fluff-wise, it is very flavourful. The sell-your-soul-to-some-evil-powerful-guy concept is a classic, and it seems very well-thought here. Most of the abilities make sense in this context. I particularly like how you emphasize on the total absence of freedom the character has.

Requirements : That's a 9th level entry for a straight Warlock.

d8 HD, strong BAB, Will and Fortitude saves. That's solid, a strict upgrade from the Warlock.

Master's Tutelage : The dead levels regarding this ability seem haphazardly placed (1 and 7 for the spellcasting path, 2, 6 and 9 for initiators). I don't know much about what a granted or readied maneuver represents in terms of power though, so I can't really judge.

Dark Pact : Code of conduct, that was to be expected. Plus the contracts. I found them quite problematic for several reasons, detailed below.

Contract : It's a Geas spell. Which means the character must spend every day on his contract, or he will suffer damage, sickening, and the loss of his special abilities. The thing being that he always has a contract. So, no time off for the Hand of the Dark Master. I cannot see how a player would benefit from a class that restricts his choices so drastically (except if the player's contracts are central to the plot). In addition, the "once the contract is completed, another takes its place" clause seems to make the "you must complete at least one contract a year" clause pointless.
For an NPC, though, it seems perfect.
For a PC, I would suggest granting them a new contract every once in a while, instead of constantly.

Dark Boon : Any least invocation, scales with level all the way to dark invocations. Again, great flavour, adds a little versatility to the Warlock. 1/day though, so it's not much.

Unholy Smite : Drain your own health to deal more damage to your enemies? Yummy. A good fix to the Hellfire Blast, and one that is usable on more than just Eldritch Blasts.

Master's Grace : 2nd level according to the text but 3rd level according to the table.
Darkvision, always useful.

Pact of Renewal : The Master takes good care of his toys. One remark : if their abilities are taken away because of the violation of their pact, it is stated that they "are unable to regain any hit points at all". Once again, this seems unpractical for a PC.

Blood Magic : I love this so much. You should be more specific about the definition of "someone". Intelligent beings only, living beings only, humanoids only? Because if anything goes, I know I would always have a bag of squirrels handy, just in case I need to prepare Death Ward or Invisibility.

Master's Wards : Miss chance is good. I don't really understand how the recurring "shadows" theme is relevant, though ; it feels more like an undead theme to me. The associated penalty seems a little harsh.

Pact of Eternity : This is weird, and once again, makes me feel like this class is only for NPCs (and even a recurring villain should be killable, lest your PCs feel powerless). The only way to get rid of the character is to kill him again and again and again until he loses this level when he comes back, and then kill him one more time. Am I mistaken?

Master's Call : Planar Binding has a casting time of 10 minutes. Shouldn't it be shorter if the duration is limited to 1 round / level?

Master's Shadow : Maybe I can't read, but to me, it feels like you can slowly kill everything not cold resistant in your half of the world, as long as it's nighttime. No save. No SR. And you don't even have to spend a swift action to do so
Same thing about the other effect : pick a creature miles away, and Eldritch Glaive it repeatedly until it's cold dead, as long as it's at night.
This at least needs a range limit for both effects, and you should specify the caster level for Kelgore's Grave Mist.

Pact of Pacts : So, now, when pursuing a contract, your evil buddies are even more compelled to help you! They've probably been assisting you with your contracts for 8 levels, though, so it comes a little bit late.

Transcendance : The at-will spells as Su seem too powerful. Then again, you're already at 17th level, 18th with a straight Warlock entry : they probably won't affect the balance drastically.
I don't know how I feel about the "becoming an Outsider" part. I feel as though it's been overdone, and I feel it doesn't mesh too well here. There is no need to specify that you can still be resurrected, it's already specified by the Native subtype.
I've already said what I thought of the contract system, and this doesn't fix it all.

Seeing as it gets so many great class abilities, increased hit dice and BAB, I think 8/10 casting is a little bit too much. I would suggest making it a 5/10 progression.

[Fable Wright]

Responses spoiled for length.

Master's Tutelage : The dead levels regarding this ability seem haphazardly placed (1 and 7 for the spellcasting path, 2, 6 and 9 for initiators). I don't know much about what a granted or readied maneuver represents in terms of power though, so I can't really judge.
Fair enough. I may just restrict entry to warlocks, as that fits the mechanics best, but I somehow wanted to add in some way to make the class something that anyone could get the advantage of, fitting the "Sell your soul for power" thing is for anyone. Just restricting it to the Eldritch Glaive invocation and dropping the required Eldritch Blast damage might work better, though.


Dark Pact : Code of conduct, that was to be expected. Plus the contracts. I found them quite problematic for several reasons, detailed below.

Contract : It's a Geas spell. Which means the character must spend every day on his contract, or he will suffer damage, sickening, and the loss of his special abilities. The thing being that he always has a contract. So, no time off for the Hand of the Dark Master. I cannot see how a player would benefit from a class that restricts his choices so drastically (except if the player's contracts are central to the plot). In addition, the "once the contract is completed, another takes its place" clause seems to make the "you must complete at least one contract a year" clause pointless.
For an NPC, though, it seems perfect.
For a PC, I would suggest granting them a new contract every once in a while, instead of constantly.
My thoughts behind this were that if there was a Hand in the campaign, their goals would, by necessity, be plot related. Perhaps allowing leeway in pursuing the task for a number of days up to class level before suffering penalties may be a good inclusion.

Also, the must complete one contract per year was intended to make sure that they don't just try to ignore their Geas, and to provide PCs a way to kill off a Hand: If they're stuck working on the contract for a year, and fail to fulfill it, they lose their class abilities. Hence, if PCs prevent them from filling their Contract for a year, the Hand is killable.


Dark Boon : Any least invocation, scales with level all the way to dark invocations. Again, great flavour, adds a little versatility to the Warlock. 1/day though, so it's not much.
Look again at some of those invocations. Especially the ones that have 24-hour durations. Using those once per day, or having another tool to use 1/day, seemed like a fair way to use the ability without overpowering it.


Pact of Renewal : The Master takes good care of his toys. One remark : if their abilities are taken away because of the violation of their pact, it is stated that they "are unable to regain any hit points at all". Once again, this seems unpractical for a PC.
Ah, I misworded that, then. It's no healing due to rest; using magic items to cure ability damage and healing hit points is expected for adventurers, and could cover for this. Doing so may involve chain-use of magic items, but that's par for the course of an adventurer.


Blood Magic : I love this so much. You should be more specific about the definition of "someone". Intelligent beings only, living beings only, humanoids only? Because if anything goes, I know I would always have a bag of squirrels handy, just in case I need to prepare Death Ward or Invisibility.
I will clarify then. Any living being with blood that has Hit Dice equal to at least twice the level of spell you're trying to prepare. I did include the Hit Dice equal to twice the level of the spell prepared in there, but it may be obscured by the text...

Master's Wards : Miss chance is good. I don't really understand how the recurring "shadows" theme is relevant, though ; it feels more like an undead theme to me. The associated penalty seems a little harsh.
Fair enough, I could see downplaying that theme. And the associated penalty was intended to be more fluff-based; Sickened in the light, as mentioned in the text, can be negated by wearing concealing robes. It was more meant as a way to actually make them hate the light of day rather than impose constant penalties.


Pact of Eternity : This is weird, and once again, makes me feel like this class is only for NPCs (and even a recurring villain should be killable, lest your PCs feel powerless). The only way to get rid of the character is to kill him again and again and again until he loses this level when he comes back, and then kill him one more time. Am I mistaken?
As mentioned before, if they lose their powers due to failing a Contract, they don't come back anymore. But otherwise, they're really, really hard to put down. And would it feel out of place on a PC? Classes like Telflammer Shadowlord have ways to come back from a deathblow, and I felt that it was a flavorful ability to add on.


Master's Call : Planar Binding has a casting time of 10 minutes. Shouldn't it be shorter if the duration is limited to 1 round / level?
Circumvented by the fact that it's a Su ability, which have Standard action casting times unless otherwise mentioned. This will be brought up in the text...


Master's Shadow : Maybe I can't read, but to me, it feels like you can slowly kill everything not cold resistant in your half of the world, as long as it's nighttime. No save. No SR. And you don't even have to spend a swift action to do so
Same thing about the other effect : pick a creature miles away, and Eldritch Glaive it repeatedly until it's cold dead, as long as it's at night.
This at least needs a range limit for both effects, and you should specify the caster level for Kelgore's Grave Mist.
Range limitations to be capped to Close range.


Transcendance : The at-will spells as Su seem too powerful. Then again, you're already at 17th level, 18th with a straight Warlock entry : they probably won't affect the balance drastically.
I don't know how I feel about the "becoming an Outsider" part. I feel as though it's been overdone, and I feel it doesn't mesh too well here. There is no need to specify that you can still be resurrected, it's already specified by the Native subtype.
I've already said what I thought of the contract system, and this doesn't fix it all.
I'm of the opinion that classes that cap at 18th level have to be awesome, while not necessarily being overpowered. The clause about the type was to enable the Outsider to be resurrected while on other planes, where they lose the Native subtype. Still, the Outsider bit does seem tacked on. Fixed.

Seeing as it gets so many great class abilities, increased hit dice and BAB, I think 8/10 casting is a little bit too much. I would suggest making it a 5/10 progression.
Geeze, 5/10?!? Swiftblade has 6/10, and it's the only PrC that gives you abilities that outweigh the lost Caster Levels. Warlocks also have the problem that they're below the power curve on the whole, and a lot of the class abilities don't directly impact combat. Unholy Smite is pretty worth it, but Hellfire Warlock is a full advancement PrC that doesn't stack with this class, and a handfull of 1/day abilities don't seem to be worth more than 2 or at most 3 caster levels, especially with Warlocks behind as they are...

[Keynub]

I've taken a look at your changes, most of which I like.




Also, the must complete one contract per year was intended to make sure that they don't just try to ignore their Geas, and to provide PCs a way to kill off a Hand: If they're stuck working on the contract for a year, and fail to fulfill it, they lose their class abilities. Hence, if PCs prevent them from filling their Contract for a year, the Hand is killable.

It would still be a tremendous feat to keep someone that doesn't even fear death from accomplishing their mission for a whole year.
The ability to ignore the Geas perfectly addresses the problem I had with the contract mechanic, without hurting the flavour.




Look again at some of those invocations. Especially the ones that have 24-hour durations. Using those once per day, or having another tool to use 1/day, seemed like a fair way to use the ability without overpowering it.

Did I write "not much"? I actually meant to write "not too much", as in "not overpowered". I completely agree with you. My apologies.




I did include the Hit Dice equal to twice the level of the spell prepared in there, but it may be obscured by the text...

You're right, I missed that part. Again, apologies.




And would it feel out of place on a PC? Classes like Telflammer Shadowlord have ways to come back from a deathblow, and I felt that it was a flavorful ability to add on.

I find the Shadowlord problematic for that very reason, actually, and if my players ever wanted to play one, I think I would deny them this ability. But that's only my opinion, of course.
I agree with you that it is, flavour-wise, a nice touch.
From my point of view, there should at least be a way to prevent the resurrection, like there is for the Sand Shaper's Desert Shroud ability ; for instance, the Pact could be useless for a Hand killed on Consecrated ground.




I'm of the opinion that classes that cap at 18th level have to be awesome, while not necessarily being overpowered.

I second this opinion. I just thought that it would be a little too much. Now that this level does not advance invocations, though, I'm perfectly fine with it.




Geeze, 5/10?!?

I just felt that the abilities were overpowered when compared to a straight Warlock, especially given their improved Hit Dice, BAB and saves. If an increase in power level compared to the Warlock is what you were aiming for, then 7/10 seems good.

[Fable Wright]

I find the Shadowlord problematic for that very reason, actually, and if my players ever wanted to play one, I think I would deny them this ability. But that's only my opinion, of course.
I agree with you that it is, flavour-wise, a nice touch.
From my point of view, there should at least be a way to prevent the resurrection, like there is for the Sand Shaper's Desert Shroud ability ; for instance, the Pact could be useless for a Hand killed on Consecrated ground.


I rather like this idea, and changed the ability so that a similar method would work. The problem is that Consecration is a second-level, no save spell that would make killing the Hand far too easy. Now, if you Consecrate the Hand and steal it's soul (Thinaun, Trap the Soul, whatever), you can kill them; it would take concerted effort to do so, which is rather the point of the ability.

And now, for my PEACH:

My first impressions: It's way too narrow. The class abilities focus on teleportation effects and time manipulation effects. These don't necessarily come up a lot, and the abilities granted by the class don't really help as much in scenarios where you don't fight spellcasters.

Requirements: Entry is simple enough, 5 BAB, 4 ranks in Knowledge skills, contracts... and then 8 ranks in Spellcraft. I find this odd, especially since everything else points to noncaster entry. The class doesn't really support casters taking the class, and it makes entry difficult. Perhaps 4 ranks in Spellcraft and Skill Focus: Spellcraft instead of Iron Will? That way, melee characters who don't have spell progressions to give up would be able to access the class, and they would get the most out of it.

Spellcasting: I find this odd, as well. You give one level of advancement at level 1, to encourage mages to clean up after themselves. Why not just introduce a feat that does this requiring 8 ranks in Spellcraft, and give it to the Enforcers for free? The BAB +5 is going to prevent most mages from taking the class anyways, and this way the Quaruts can say they actually tried.

Sense & Repair Disruption: These feel like they should be bundled into one ability, but are otherwise fine, required for the functioning of the class.

Smite Transgressor: First off, this is narrow. Extremely so. They have to be under the effects of a small list of buffs, it's limited by times per day, and is unlikely to come up that much, except in the occasional encounter with a caster and a number of minions. And then uses/day limitation. It just doesn't seem that good of an ability. Maybe just make it a passive buff, and make it so that it can dispel contingent Disruption effects?

Also, you really have to define what attacks mean. Is a Fireball an attack? If so, what happens when you hit multiple people with the attack? What if the same spell is dispelled many times? Clarity is needed...

Time Consciousness: Solid buff. Initiative boosters aren't exactly a dime a dozen.

See through the Crack: Cool power. Not entirely sure how useful it is, though, given that you can't do much through it.

Mark Transgressor: Okay, this could potentially be useful, and you could use it to slice through bluffs. Again, though, this only works on Wizards, and not only that, it has to be Wizards you scoped out before. And while it can let you find them, you don't have any way to get over there without causing a disturbance. I would just allow them to mark any being they see using Disruptive Magic as their target, or as a full-round action mark a target through a Rupture. The effect probably should be amped up, as it's currently useless against non-magic users. Maybe also dispel items, and/or proactively prevent the use of teleportation abilities.

Dimension Lock: You probably shouldn't add in the Concentration check to avoid the result. Making it a Will save would be better. And/or adding damage to force a Concentration check; even something like 1d4/level, while small amounts of damage, might make the blow it.

Cross the Crack: I really feel like this should be an at-will ability, just to give it the implacable pursuer feel. As it is, just a few teleportations into random locations, and he's stuck in the middle of a desert without a paddle. Mentioning that they can bring companions along may be a good idea.

Haste: Finally, at level 6, we get an ability that doesn't require a Transgressor to use! Once per day. Too little, too late.

Temporal Lock: Cool, but I feel it could be used earlier, and again, it doesn't need the concentration check. Just having them be aware of the effect, and unable to use the spell at all, would probably be the best way to handle this. If they want to escape the effect, all they have to do is run away...

Spy on Transgressor: Seems fine, but uses/day restricts it, and, again, it seem to come in rather late in the progression.

Dimension Door: Okay, a nifty once a day ability that takes out the ability to use the rest of your turn away when you use it, as per the wording of D.Door. At character level 14.

Undo Time: Just give the ability to use Time Regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) 1/day as a PLA, and you're done. As PLAs don't have an XP cost...

As I said, adding in more abilities that are usable when not fighting spellcasters you've scoped out may be a good thing. Something like the ability to tap into other's disruptions, or getting a mechanical benefit whenever you close a disruption might work. For example, getting a bonus to attack and damage rolls, or getting a boost of speed or actions when you close them from the surge of dissipated temporal energy, would make this a much more appealing class. Abilities to cause, and get benefits from closing Disruptions would make welcome additions to the class that would lead to more dynamic gameplay.

Also, in Appendix 2, you should probably clarify exactly what the penalties are for different infractions. You just leave it kind of vague, which probably isn't a good thing in a contest about Law and Order. :smalltongue:

[sirpercival]

The mechanics of the Clockwork Cenobite are done, & I've started working on the fluff. Anyone have any comments on the class so far?

[Keynub]

Requirements: Entry is simple enough, 5 BAB, 4 ranks in Knowledge skills, contracts... and then 8 ranks in Spellcraft. I find this odd, especially since everything else points to noncaster entry. The class doesn't really support casters taking the class, and it makes entry difficult. Perhaps 4 ranks in Spellcraft and Skill Focus: Spellcraft instead of Iron Will? That way, melee characters who don't have spell progressions to give up would be able to access the class, and they would get the most out of it.

Spellcasting: I find this odd, as well. You give one level of advancement at level 1, to encourage mages to clean up after themselves. Why not just introduce a feat that does this requiring 8 ranks in Spellcraft, and give it to the Enforcers for free? The BAB +5 is going to prevent most mages from taking the class anyways, and this way the Quaruts can say they actually tried.

The feat is a nice idea; and seeing as it's very underwhelming, I don't think high requirements are necessary. Plus, this way, it can serve as a feat tax (instead of Iron Will, which was here only because I had no better idea).



Smite Transgressor: First off, this is narrow. Extremely so. They have to be under the effects of a small list of buffs, it's limited by times per day, and is unlikely to come up that much, except in the occasional encounter with a caster and a number of minions. And then uses/day limitation. It just doesn't seem that good of an ability. Maybe just make it a passive buff, and make it so that it can dispel contingent Disruption effects?

Also, you really have to define what attacks mean. Is a Fireball an attack? If so, what happens when you hit multiple people with the attack? What if the same spell is dispelled many times? Clarity is needed...

True, its sole use seems to be in conjunction with Mark Transgressor. I'll probably just suppress it and put it under Mark, unless I come up with something.
And indeed, it was poorly worded. Now restricted to weapon attacks.



See through the Crack: Cool power. Not entirely sure how useful it is, though, given that you can't do much through it.

The main use of this would be before using Cross the Crack. I wouldn't want to follow an escaping red dragon into a volcano.



Mark Transgressor: Okay, this could potentially be useful, and you could use it to slice through bluffs. Again, though, this only works on Wizards, and not only that, it has to be Wizards you scoped out before. And while it can let you find them, you don't have any way to get over there without causing a disturbance. I would just allow them to mark any being they see using Disruptive Magic as their target, or as a full-round action mark a target through a Rupture. The effect probably should be amped up, as it's currently useless against non-magic users. Maybe also dispel items, and/or proactively prevent the use of teleportation abilities.

Mark Transgressor is mainly there to improve the other abilities, and to allow for scrying later. A more practical means of marking a transgressor in combat is a welcome addition.



Dimension Lock: You probably shouldn't add in the Concentration check to avoid the result. Making it a Will save would be better. And/or adding damage to force a Concentration check; even something like 1d4/level, while small amounts of damage, might make the blow it.

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking, resisting the effects with a skill check. Will save it is, for both this and the Temporal Lock. Plus, deny resisting for the baddies.



Cross the Crack: I really feel like this should be an at-will ability, just to give it the implacable pursuer feel. As it is, just a few teleportations into random locations, and he's stuck in the middle of a desert without a paddle. Mentioning that they can bring companions along may be a good idea.

Actually, See Through The Crack prevents from blindly teleporting. Anyway, it is restricted enough that unlimited uses per day are adequate.



Spy on Transgressor: Seems fine, but uses/day restricts it, and, again, it seem to come in rather late in the progression.

Now with a more lawful-sounding name! And once again, you're right. So, unlimited uses per day, and a little earlier. It is very limited, after all.



Undo Time: Just give the ability to use Time Regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) 1/day as a PLA, and you're done. As PLAs don't have an XP cost...

Indeed. Either I didn't know about it or I had forgotten all about it. Thank you.



As I said, adding in more abilities that are usable when not fighting spellcasters you've scoped out may be a good thing. Something like the ability to tap into other's disruptions, or getting a mechanical benefit whenever you close a disruption might work. For example, getting a bonus to attack and damage rolls, or getting a boost of speed or actions when you close them from the surge of dissipated temporal energy, would make this a much more appealing class. Abilities to cause, and get benefits from closing Disruptions would make welcome additions to the class that would lead to more dynamic gameplay.

I had initially wanted to do that, but I feared it would encourage creating disruptions just for the purpose of closing them and gaining a little something in the process. Maybe I'll put a little something against this behavior in the contract.



Also, in Appendix 2, you should probably clarify exactly what the penalties are for different infractions. You just leave it kind of vague, which probably isn't a good thing in a contest about Law and Order. :smalltongue:

It is my intention to expand both appendices eventually. I only wrote a stub to remind myself to write more later.

Well, it seems I have used most of your suggestions. It's still incomplete, though; that dead 8th level bugs me, but I'll do something about it tomorrow. It's getting late here.

Thank you very much. You obviously have much more experience in this than I do.

[ErrantX]

Things seem to be starting up pretty well, and usually there are bunch of questions or clarifications right out of the gate but not this time. Anyone have anything they're curious about relating to the contest or want advice on something? :smalleek:

-X

[sirpercival]

Things seem to be starting up pretty well, and usually there are bunch of questions or clarifications right out of the gate but not this time. Anyone have anything they're curious about relating to the contest or want advice on something? :smalleek:

-X

Yes. Is Clockwork Cenobite interesting enough? :smalltongue:

[ErrantX]

Yes. Is Clockwork Cenobite interesting enough? :smalltongue:

Conceptually yes. I like the crunch, it fits the theme very well. I'd like to see more fluff as to why and how these people become what they are. Reasons for why a normal person can grow a suit of mechanical armor over his body as a new skin. What does that do to a person? How do people perceive them? What's their end goal? What sort of organization exists for them? Things like that.

-X

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm thinking of tactically a Lawful bard by the name of Wordsmith Paragon, if only because it means I can use "Interrobang" as a class feature.:smallbiggrin:

[Hyooz]

Currently working on a Psion PrC for mildly-obsessive types who really like to keep things organized, even the wolves harassing them and their friends.

[Fable Wright]

This is somewhat off-topic, but Hyooz, when was the last time you updated your signature?

[Hyooz]

This is somewhat off-topic, but Hyooz, when was the last time you updated your signature?

Long, long time ago. I really should fix it... but then I always get lazy.

[sirpercival]

Conceptually yes. I like the crunch, it fits the theme very well. I'd like to see more fluff as to why and how these people become what they are. Reasons for why a normal person can grow a suit of mechanical armor over his body as a new skin. What does that do to a person? How do people perceive them? What's their end goal? What sort of organization exists for them? Things like that.

-X

Hmm, you've given me a number of fluff ideas... Sweet! I should get my laptop back from the repair shop today, so I can maybe work on it, lol.

[Lord_Gareth]

Work has officially begun on the Knights of the Shackled Soul.

"You are under arrest for crimes against universal order! THROW DOWN YOUR WEAPONS!"

[Hyooz]

Work has officially begun on the Knights of the Shackled Soul.

"You are under arrest for crimes against universal order! THROW DOWN YOUR WEAPONS!"

Stop right there, criminal scum!

[Amechra]

Alright, the first few levels of the Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14173675&postcount=4) are up, as well as the definition of righteous and righteous behavior.

I need suggestions for 9th level class features; I was thinking of maybe something where, as long as you observe righteous behavior, you don't need to eat, drink, sleep, or breath. However, every time that you perform an unrighteous act, you are treated as if you had not eaten, drank, slept that day (which is cumulative until you undergo atonement of some sort), and you are treated as if you had been holding your breath for a round?

So, let's say that Mr. Paladin keeps wracking up offenses...

One of these days, he's just going to suffocate when littering.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright everyone, it's that time of the month again: guess what Gareth's class does based only on the ability names!

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I have posted my Despoiler of Entropy. I hope it meets with general approval.

[Keynub]

Sirpercival, I looked at the Clockwork Cenobite, and I found the Great Gear of Nirvana ability so hilarious that I felt compelled to draw it (poorly).

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2012/45/1352657978-vlan.png

More seriously, now. I fear the class does not reward taking more than a 2-level Monk dip : it is enough to reach the prerequisites by level 5, you can take 1 level in Clockwork Cenobite, and it gives you heavy-armored evasion (and what heavy armor!), and a base speed higher than that of a normal heavy-armored front line fighter, in addition to the saves boost (two times) and the obvious advantage of not having to buy it.

Taking all five levels of Monk prior to taking this PrC doesn't seem to be worth it, as it is; and the fluff seems to indicate that the PrC is inclined towards Monks (and Warforged monks even more so, given the nice immunities they end up with).

Also, I can't understand how Order Flight isn't supernatural. Does the monk grow mechanical wings, Da Vinci-style, or rotors or the like?

I will totally use this for my next campaign, though.

:smallsmile: - The man in heavy armour has strange clockwork devices that seem to sprout from his skin. He hits you, and suddenly, a giant cogwheel appears and tries to knock you down. Reflex save.

[TheGeckoKing]

I have posted my Despoiler of Entropy. I hope it meets with general approval.

Oh, I approve in the "It's awesome" sense, but disapprove in the "For god sake, I'm up against HIM?! No! NO! NOOOOO!" sense. :smallsigh:

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Oh, I approve in the "It's awesome" sense, but disapprove in the "For god sake, I'm up against HIM?! No! NO! NOOOOO!" sense. :smallsigh:

So you think it's overpowered? Any advice?

[Amechra]

Hey, Krimm_Blackleaf...

Big fan...

I now have the unsettling compulsion to drop out. But I shall not! May the best homebrewer win! :smallwink:

I'm relying on the fact that I've not seen anything new by you for, like, a year and a half. even the best get rusty, right?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Indeed they do.

[TheGeckoKing]

So you think it's overpowered? Any advice?

If I had to state any sort of critique, I guess it would be a suggestion to widen the amount of creatures that could possibly take the class, because as of now it's pretty much an NPC-Only PrC.

[ErrantX]

Krimm entering the contest is definitely a gauntlet thrown. Bring your A-game this time people, and glad to see you come back for a round of the contest Krimm. Good showing, I like it.

-X

[Amechra]

All the mechanics for the Paladin are done-ish, except for re-balancing.

I hope you have observed all of the laws, yes? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14173675&postcount=4)

As you can see, I went with the angle of being a scary, scary law-keeper.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

If I had to state any sort of critique, I guess it would be a suggestion to widen the amount of creatures that could possibly take the class, because as of now it's pretty much an NPC-Only PrC.

I had considered that, actually. Allow some mortal lawbringers to get a taste of cosmic law and it's enforcement. I'll think on that and possibly alter this evening.


Krimm entering the contest is definitely a gauntlet thrown. Bring your A-game this time people, and glad to see you come back for a round of the contest Krimm. Good showing, I like it.

-X

You flatter me, but thanks. :smallsmile:

[sirpercival]

Sirpercival, I looked at the Clockwork Cenobite, and I found the Great Gear of Nirvana ability so hilarious that I felt compelled to draw it (poorly).

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2012/45/1352657978-vlan.png That. Is. Amazing. Do you mind if I include it with the class?


More seriously, now. I fear the class does not reward taking more than a 2-level Monk dip : it is enough to reach the prerequisites by level 5, you can take 1 level in Clockwork Cenobite, and it gives you heavy-armored evasion (and what heavy armor!), and a base speed higher than that of a normal heavy-armored front line fighter, in addition to the saves boost (two times) and the obvious advantage of not having to buy it.

Taking all five levels of Monk prior to taking this PrC doesn't seem to be worth it, as it is; and the fluff seems to indicate that the PrC is inclined towards Monks (and Warforged monks even more so, given the nice immunities they end up with). Hm. I see your point... I wanted to allow entry via other paths, and simply encourage monk entry. However, I probably didn't do enough of the latter. Any suggestions?


Also, I can't understand how Order Flight isn't supernatural. Does the monk grow mechanical wings, Da Vinci-style, or rotors or the like? Well, what you seem to have completely ignored is that I accidentally put Ex when I meant Su. Come on, do your homework! :smallwink:


I will totally use this for my next campaign, though. Sweet!


:smallsmile: - The man in heavy armour has strange clockwork devices that seem to sprout from his skin. He hits you, and suddenly, a giant cogwheel appears and tries to knock you down. Reflex save. Lololol.

[Amechra]

Can someone please take a look at the mechanical balance of the Paladin, please?

[Fable Wright]

Can someone please take a look at the mechanical balance of the Paladin, please?

I'll put up a PEACH for it tonight. Getting a critique for the Hand of the Dark Masters would be appreciated, though.

[Amechra]

I'll see what I can do.

[Fable Wright]

Paladin PEACH

First impressions: This is a terrifying prestige class. Its features mostly seem to be based off of controlling a community through fear. They will become aware of the Paladin's law, and even if no one sees, they will be found out and killed with extreme prejudice. As in, exploding when the Paladin looks at them on their rounds.

That said, there are a few places where wording is unclear, and there are a few balance issues with the class, but it seems to be a great place to start. Let's get into the details...

Requirements
They seem fairly loose; you basically need to be a Lawful Evil Warlock of level 5 or higher. No burning feats or skill points, so it's fairly open. You might want to restate selling your soul to a Devil in the Requirements section.

Chassis
Not finished yet, but it's probably going to be better than the base Warlock, except for the 8/10 chassis. Why 4+int skill points, out of curiosity? Warlocks and Paladins both have 2+int, and I don't see why the Paladin is a highly skillful character.

Splintered Path & Righteous Presence
These are really great fluff abilities, and pretty much sell the class right off the bat. You might also want to clarify whether the "Level" in Righteous Presence is class level or character level. Otherwise, it might get confusing...

Fist of Proper Behavior
This ability is a bit... off. The damage is solid, and scales okay as you level up, but replacing the damage seems odd and somehow abusable. Using Snap Kick, Flurry of Blows, or basically any method of gaining additional attacks at a penalty becomes much better. Adding on Hellfire Blast makes this damage extremely high. Still, it makes up for a lack of other combat features. It's an odd way to handle smite, and I'm not entirely sure whether it's a good thing or not.

Also, some clarity is needed on Unrighteous Behavior here: What if the person only seems to be breaking laws, but actually has a sanction that the Paladin doesn't know about making it legal? Or if they're just following orders from a higher power?

Touch of Mercy
Heal everyone to full out of combat. This is something that should probably be restricted to being used 1/person/encounter, or something to that effect, or have it not affect someone who's above 1/2 their HP total. Otherwise, you get the always at full HP effect for the entire party, which is generally agreed to be really powerful. Especially for a class without any abilities with limited uses per day.

Also, suddenly turning Fist attacks into Touch attacks seems like a bad idea, especially with any way to spam additional attacks; things like Eldritch Claw are balanced against Eldritch Glaive only by the fact that they require an actual attack roll to use, and turning them into touch attacks opens the way for a lot of abuse...

Zealot's Cause
This ability is rather powerful. Charisma to AC and Saves, but staggered out. Probably not too abusive, but still something to watch. There's also a bit of fluff disconnect: "minor scuffs in their armor"- Warlocks aren't proficient with many armors, and tend not to wear armor, given that they suffer Spell Failure chance from it. Maybe add Battle Caster and Medium Armor proficiency as required feats, to fit the image?

Chide Wayward Children
Okay, this is an ability that is just plain terrifying, especially when applied to people en mass. Some clarifications are needed, though:
-Does the Paladin know whether a given person is Awakened?
-Does the Will save permanently end the effect, or just for 24 hours?
-If the Will save ends the effect, does the sign marking the person disappear?
-If they become immune to Mind-Affecting spells during the duration, and then perform an Unrighteous deed, are they still marked?
-How does the Disobedience spell work with this?

Aura of Conviction
The Paladin hovers over people while they work, and gets quality results. I would like to point out that you don't have a range listed, so I don't know if they can AoO someone from 60 ft away, or if they have to be within 5ft to get someone to work better. It could also wind up provoking AoOs if there are any laws prohibiting melee combat where the Paladin is. Every swing from an opponent provokes an AoO, that deals a rather high amount of base damage due to the Fist ability. Even if there aren't laws, if they become Aware, and the Paladin orders them not to attack or interfere with the Paladin in any way, they take the AoOs as described above.

Majesty of the Law
I'm a little wary of the ability that causes attitudes to start at friendly for Awakened beings; otherwise, Chide the Wayward Children and the Gaze attack basically turn into Charm Monster effects. Maybe include a line about attitudes not changing mid-combat, just to clarify?

Also, an aura preventing any creature from starting as Hostile to the Paladin may be a bit too powerful. The last two paragraphs need some clarifying: Are they gained at 4th level or 7th level?

Finally, how does this affect PCs? The rules on Diplomacy say that they can't be used on PCs, and this has a similar type of effect. The Paladin would basically become a Mary Sue to the PCs: Their character likes the beautiful Paladin, to the point where they cannot actually attack it unless provoked.

The range of the Gaze is also unlisted.

Book of the Law
Seems to come in a bit late in the class. It's standard stuff for an Inquisition-type character.

Repair Broken Cogs
Is there any way to reverse the condition? This question probably should also go under the Chide the Wayward Children ability, in case the will save isn't enough, but this is something big that demands an answer. (On a side note, how does the Will save work if they're immune to mind-affecting then, but not when they first are hit with the ability?) It's a powerful, and nightmare fuel-based ability, and causes problems when it makes something like a Bard or Barbarian become Lawful.

True Condemnation
Flavorful, but NERF NOW PLEASE. The 7th level Gaze attack now causes instant death, each Fist attack and (Quickened) Eldritch Glaive swing now carries a Death effect rider. Forcing someone to make 9 (with Quickened Eldritch Glaive+other full attack+Gaze) or more Fortitude saves against a higher-than-normal DC (Due to Charisma SAD and the fact that it starts as DC 16+Cha mod at level 11, and then increases at a faster rate than spells do) in the same round is a far too powerful. Monsters also don't tend to have immunity to Death effects, so...

Excise Tumors from Society
Boost an ally and add a rider effect. Decent effect, overall, but I would take out the True Condemnation effect, as adding yet another SoD the normal routine is a bit much.

Long Arm of the Law
If any of the laws include "Cannot attack another person without a sanction," this ability is busted. And given the sway that a Paladin would likely have in a lawmaking department, that's a likely thing to happen. An AoO for each attack made against them, without expending uses? Possibly more, depending on other minutia? If Spellcasting is against the law, then mages are screwed over, as they won't ever be able to use Verbal components. If it's restricted to reasonable levels when melee combat and spellcasting are allowed in the city, or other conditions based on the meaning of righteous when applied to people other than the Paladin (ordered by their superiors to take down the Paladin, for example, which may or may not work), then it's not too bad an ability.

Laws are Life
Cool and flavorful; could possibly be moved to lower levels, but still a good placeholder.

Laws are Truth
Enter a given area and die from True Condemnation. While allowing immunity to mind-affecting isn't too big a deal with the Chide the Wayward Child ability, disallowing immunity to death effects when you're tossing around ridiculous numbers of them each round (let's see: Gaze, full attack, potentially Quickened Glaive, moving into aura, AoOs from breaking laws in the Aura... did I miss anything? Oh, yes, adding the Death effect to an ally's attack as well) makes it too powerful, again.

Perfect Harmony
This is nightmare fuel. Pure, high-octane, nightmare fuel. If you buy an object the Paladin was around when it was made? You begin to conform to their morals, and are forced to obey. Entire towns would be forced to conform and obey the Paladin after a short length of time. Each of their outgoing products, which are going to be high quality, will cause others to fall under the aura, potentially causing guilds to convert to Paladin control. Members of the guild then become hubs for sending out products that will begin to cause everyone to conform. If someone in an organization breaks a rule, they get hit with what is potentially a death effect. This is very much a story-warping power, and while it certainly fits... it may be definitely is too powerful. It grants the power to take over the world the Paladin, and that might be too strong. You may also want to clarify whether or not the effects persist after the Paladin dies...

Final Thoughts: Well. The Paladin has a few powers that are a bit too strong; high-damage AoOs against anyone who is Aware and doesn't follow their commands within their Aura whenever they disobey, throwing out high-DC death effects like nobody's business, warping the campaign even without their capstone, and so on. It's very flavorful and made of nightmare fuel, though, and I found it a (mostly) well executed and interesting concept.

[Amechra]

Read through the Righteous Behavior definition. Violence is always Righteous Behavior. Always.

I'll put in the standard "once per 24 hours" thing on the save for the Gaze attack.

And, well, they wouldn't be conforming to the Paladin's morals; they would be conforming to local laws. Absolutely conforming. Forever.

I will have to rebalance, and thanks for the PEACH.

[Keynub]

That. Is. Amazing. Do you mind if I include it with the class?

Why, thank you! I would be honored. :smallsmile:



Hm. I see your point... I wanted to allow entry via other paths, and simply encourage monk entry. However, I probably didn't do enough of the latter. Any suggestions?

I would throw in some abilities that would be improved by Slow Fall, Ki Strike and Purity of Body. For instance, allowing the enchantment of the Mechanus Skin as a weapon only for characters with Ki Strike (Magic), or giving them perfect maneuverability with Ordered Flight if they already have Slow Fall...




Well, what you seem to have completely ignored is that I accidentally put Ex when I meant Su. Come on, do your homework! :smallwink:
How can I have missed this? My apologies. :smalltongue:

[sirpercival]

Why, thank you! I would be honored. :smallsmile:


I would throw in some abilities that would be improved by Slow Fall, Ki Strike and Purity of Body. For instance, allowing the enchantment of the Mechanus Skin as a weapon only for characters with Ki Strike (Magic), or giving them perfect maneuverability with Ordered Flight if they already have Slow Fall...



How can I have missed this? My apologies. :smalltongue:

I like these ideas and have appropriated them. Thank you!

[Hyooz]

Finally got my Geometrist done (though the name is still a working title.) Take a gander at these poor little Psions who just want the world to be a little more orderly, and will accomplish such with lasers if they must.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Okay, fellow Playgrounders, I need you to make a decision for me. I have two PrC ideas, one based on a theoretical physicist (yay abstraction and dimensionality!) and one based on a museum curator (preserve ALL the things!). Which one should I do for the contest?

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, fellow Playgrounders, I need you to make a decision for me. I have two PrC ideas, one based on a theoretical physicist (yay abstraction and dimensionality!) and one based on a museum curator (preserve ALL the things!). Which one should I do for the contest?

I will aid you...if you guess what my abilities do!

[sirpercival]

Museum. Theoretical Physicists tend to be more chaotic.

[Fable Wright]

I would go with theoretical physicist. It's probably going to be easier to design, and I always like seeing someone applying dimensional shenanigans to D&D. On the other hand, it might overlap with Hyooz's Geometrist this contest, which could be bad for you both.

[Zallera]

kinda not feeling my shepherd of order, kinda too serious and meh, so i'm working on a turkey riding knight of justice instead. Dire turkeys may be involved.

[ErrantX]

kinda not feeling my shepherd of order, kinda too serious and meh, so i'm working on a turkey riding knight of justice instead. Dire turkeys may be involved.

Chocobo knight! Wark!

http://www.finalfantasyd20.com/ffd20/images/chocknight.jpg

-X

[Zallera]

chocobo knight would be neat for a FF themed game, also had an idea to do a pet based prc where the pet was an upgradable mechanical turkey that could spit fire, launch exploding rockets, use disintegrating eye lasers and what not. probably would be better as a full 20 level class tho.

[sirpercival]

Whoo! Clockwork Cenobite is completely done. Anyone in desperate need of an in-depth PEACH?

[Amechra]

I would like another PEACH...

[Hyooz]

I'm less and less enamored of my capstone. At first the idea of the Geometrist making himself into some kind of lich-lite in an effort to bring his own mind and body into line amused me, but it feels kind of out of nowhere.

I'm considering replacing it with something like this:


Point of Order (Ps): Creatures coming within 10' of the Geometrist must make a Will save (DC TBD) or the Geometrist may manifest his Shunt PLA on them as a free action. Flavor and real wording incoming.


Problem is, as fun as that ability is, it doesn't really feel "capstone"-y.

[sirpercival]

I would like another PEACH...

Working on one, will be up tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Hyooz]

Working on one, will be up tonight or tomorrow morning.

I would also appreciate one, as I feel like I've done some weird things I could use more eyes to look over.

[sirpercival]

THE PALADIN

Ask, and ye shall receive! This is pretty much stream of consciousness.


{opening fluff} Already said I love this.


WHAT IS RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOR?
This class is based upon the premise of "righteous" and "unrighteous" behavior, terms that are not relevant rules-wise outside of this class. Might be better to say "not well-defined" rather than "relevant" -- some of it can be relevant in relation to the original paladin's code. Or rather just say that you're defining them for the purposes of this class, with no bearing on other mechanical effects.


However, for the purposes of this prestige class, "righteous" behavior is defined as behaving in accordance to the laws of the most relevant governing group, with the exception of any laws that prevent brutality on the part of the lawkeepers. Likewise, "unrighteous" behavior is defined as behavior that is intentionally contrary to the relevant laws. A Paladin is merciful, and will let you get away with minor infractions; after all, too harsh a hand will ruin the beautiful machinery of society. I'm not convinced that intention should make a difference. Ignorance is no excuse, right? Also, "the most relevant governing group" may not be well-defined in any given situation. From the rest of the fluff, it seems like maybe this should be more along the lines of "the laws which are convenient to the Paladin's mission & purpose". Laws conflict all over the place, even when laid down by the same governing body; a character will have to choose which laws to be enforcing at any given time, and being LE (even though they think they're in the right) will probably pick the convenient ones.


For example, a Paladin enters a small village, tasked by his superiors with burning out heretics. As dragging a man kicking and screaming to the town square to be burned before his family and friends as a warning is against the laws of the hamlet, the Paladin would be indulging in unrighteous behavior. However, due to the fact that he is under orders by his supervisors, and specific orders by a direct superior trump general laws, his acts are entirely righteous. Maybe put in explicitly that orders from superiors always take precedence over the given laws. Also it's probably cleaner to include the "it's okay for violence" thing above to go along with that… something like "orders take precedence, & violence is okay" since they're both exceptions to the normal rule.


An interesting note is that murder and violence in the name of society are righteous behavior, even if the society has laws against violence and murder; this is not to say that pacifism and calm discourse are unrighteous, but Paladins certainly have no issue with personally dealing with lawbreakers.

Additionally, if two opposing groups both have relevant claims towards a given situation (such as if an Orc tribe are defending themselves from a town militia seeking to oust them from their homes), the Paladin simply chooses one set of laws, and holds the other set of laws as unrighteous. Ah, this is what I was talking about above.


Don't we all sleep well, knowing we have such virtuous defenders? Lol.


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment: Must be Lawful
Class Features: Eldritch Blast 3d6 There's no way to satisfy this and not start out as evil, I think… or rather, you would have to achieve 5th level in warlock and then change your alignment to lawful, which might be easier said than done.

Also, the warlock part of this doesn't necessarily make sense thematically. Why would someone like this (who seems rather militant, tbh) take 5 levels of warlock? I understand the class features are synergistic, but I'm not sure the prereq is justified.

Special: Must have slain an innocent to "prevent them from knowing suffering later." Must have done so with no remorse, and no regret. There must be sacrifices for the greater good, after all. This doesn't necessarily seem to fit -- I would think that a better justification would be "to prevent them from breaking the law". Or is this a 0th Law thing? That makes some sense...


Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int Don't forget this!


{chassis} Don't forget saves… probably good fort & will, I would think. Full BAB and d10 HD is nice for a melee class, of course. 8/10 invocation progression is also good, my favorite balance point.


Weapon Proficiencies: A Paladin gains proficiency in all martial weapons. I understand why this is here, though I'm still a little confused why thematically this is a warlock prc. I might have expected to see this as a prereq, a la abjurant champion.


Invocations: At each level in this PrC except 1st and 6th, a Paladin increases their caster level and learns new invocations as if they had gained a level in whatever invocation-using class they already have levels in; this does not progress other class features, such as Eldritch Blast or a breath weapon. Hmm… normally this does progress Eldritch Blast, doesn't it? You require the CF but don't progress it? And you progress invocations but don't require them?


Splintered Path (Ex): A Paladin has thought about good and evil, and has come to the conclusion that he is good, like a wind taking the chaff away from the grains of wheat. Very nice!


A Paladin's alignment on the Moral axis automatically changes to Evil upon taking their first level of this class; they consider themselves above normal morality, and see nothing wrong with a little brutality to prove a point.

In addition, they gain immunity to any effect, short of the direct intervention of a deity, that would alter their alignment. Instead, as long as they pursue righteous behavior, they consider themselves to be Good for the purposes of prerequisites; for all the rules they subject others to, they are the harshest on themselves. After all, others can be fixed with attentive care, and perhaps some... surgery, while the self can only be repaired through harsh work. So a LE character taking, for example, exalted feats? Awesome. Instead of saying "consider themselves to be Good for the purposes of prerequisites", maybe should say "are considered to be etc.". While alignments are in-game constructs, prerequisites aren't.


Righteous Presence (Su): A Paladin is a paragon of Righteousness. Notice that the word "Goodness" was not spoken. They are not good. They are right. I'm not sure how well this works as written. You're kinda dancing between game and metagame… the other flavor pieces seem to be inner-monologue-type stuff, while this is more of an aside to the reader. I'd pick one method and stick to it.


A Paladin has a Aura of equal strength to that of a Cleric of their level; this is always treated as if it were an Aura of Good as long as they do not act in an unrighteous manner, and as an Aura of their alignment otherwise. Paladins are always fastidious in their observance of laws, as they are key to their... self image. "They" is ambiguous. "…as laws are key…"


Fist of Proper Behavior (Sp): Sometimes, you need to punish the unrighteous in a direct manner, in the hope that, when they are dead, their sins will be wiped clean. "Sometimes, one needs to…" reads a little more stentorian.


Whenever a Paladin makes a melee attack against a creature that they know to be engaged in Unrighteous behavior, they may choose to forgo the normal damage that they would deal with their attack to instead deal damage equal to their Smite damage plus their caster level.

If they choose to do this, they receive their Charisma bonus to attack rolls, they may apply any of their eldritch essences or class features that modify their eldritch blast to the attack, and the attack is treated as if it were a Smite Evil attempt.

A Paladin may treat the dice from this class feature as if they were eldritch blast dice for the purpose of prerequisites, stacking with any eldritch blast dice they already have.

This class feature counts as Smite Evil for the purpose of prerequisites. So literally replacing normal damage? Can the replacement damage be boosted with things like Power Attack? Also, it's not clear whether the EB damage stacks when smiting, or if it's only the opposite (smite damage stacking when EBing).

My suggestion, to make it much simpler, is just to have the "smite" damage be EB increases, and then have a smite be a melee attack which deals EB damage (+whatever). It's clean, and easy to adjudicate, and you can already add essences to EBs. The increased damage, as well, will most likely not be overpowered.

If you don't like that, make sure you at least indicate which caster level is being applied.


Touch of Mercy (Sp): Isn't it true that, after weeding out the dissidents, those that are left over need a little repair from the flailing of the ones removed? A Paladin sees this and understands. This is a little awkward. Flailing? Maybe: "A Paladin recognizes that those who remain when the dissidents have been weeded out may need some care and attention." Or something.


A Paladin of at least 2nd level may, as a Standard action, touch a creature to heal them for an amount of HP equal to the damage from their Fist of Proper Behavior class feature; in addition, they may remove any condition that they could inflict through the use of one of their eldritch essences. How about just saying they heal damage equal to their smite damage (however it's calculated)?


Alternatively, they can simply use Fist of Proper Behavior as a touch attack now; sometimes, the fallible need reminding. In addition, not alternatively, unless you intend them to choose which one when they gain the class feature and not be able to do the other.


This class feature is treated as if it were Lay on Hands for prerequisites and the purposes of any feat or effect that alters or adds an effect to the damage healed by Lay on Hands. Feats only? What if there are items, spells, soulmelds, etc. which would alter LoH?


Zealot's Cause (Su): Some call Paladins mindless zealots. Paladins prefer to think of themselves as people who can do what needs to be done.

A Paladin of at least 2nd level whose Aura of Righteousness is not displaying their true alignment receives their Charisma bonus to AC, as their actions in accordance to the law brings their bearing closer to the universal ideal; minor scuffs in their armor are buffed out when they wear them, mud seems to be lightly repelled, and the metal takes on a bright, hopeful sheen. This is a little indirect to determine. Why not say "as long as they are engaged in righteous behavior"?


A Paladin of at least 5th level who is benefiting from a bonus to AC from this ability also gains their Charisma bonus to all saves, as their flawless obsessions shield them from harm. "Flawless obsessions" is awesome. Sounds like a great band/song name :D


A Paladin of at least 8th level that is benefiting from the bonus to AC from this class feature is immune to all sources of penalties, ability damage, and ability burn to their Charisma score and Charisma-based skill checks; a Paladin is always a strong, righteous figure, beautiful to behold.
Maybe instead "is immune to Charisma penalties, damage, burn, and/or drain, as well as penalties to Charisma-based skill checks" would be cleaner.


Chide Wayward Children (Su): One can hardly expect a person to cleave to laws that they don't know, can they? However, once taught, ignorance is no excuse. Hm. OK, I had thought that "ignorance is no excuse" should be more central to the class. As in, shouldn't people learn the laws in the places they live? Otherwise how can they live righteously? I had thought the onus would be more heavily on the subjects. But it may be irrelevant anyway.


A Paladin of at least 3rd level may modify any of their spell-like abilities so that, in addition to the normal effects of the spell-like ability, they may also force the creature to roll a Will save against a DC of 10+Class Level+the Paladin's Charisma modifier, or have them become Aware.

An Aware creature is treated as if they were wearing a Phylactery of Faithfulness (http://dndsrd.net/magicItemsWI.html#phylactery-of-faithfulness) at all moments for the remainder of their lives; they are allowed a Will save each day at dawn to remove this effect.

This, of course, removes any excuse of ignorance on the part of those so blessed. In addition, any Aware creature that performs Unrighteous behavior is marked in a way unique to the Paladin that placed this effect on them; perhaps their eyes seem to not have pupils, or their hair turns a vibrant, bright green.

Finally, once a creature has become Aware, their record is washed clean; they are no longer treated as if they were Unrighteous, until they perform an Unrighteous act.

This is a Mind-Affecting ability. Alright, first of all the wording of this begs the question: what kind of action does the modification require? A better wording is probably: "Any time a Paladin of at least 3rd level successfully affects a creature with one of his invocations, as part of the same action he may also force the affected creature to roll a Will save (DC 10 + class level + Cha modifier) or become Aware. This is a mind-affecting effect." I love the phylactery of faithfulness idea, though it has a couple problems -- it requires the creature to concentrate on what they're about to do (though I guess the Paladin doesn't care about that, really), and it doesn't have any bearing on laws unless the target is lawful. It only matters about their alignment and deity. Perhaps you should say "it works like PoF except that the creature is aware of any act which conflicts with a Lawful alignment, no matter what the subject's true alignment" or something. Also, is the marking visible to others?


Aura of Conviction (Su): A Paladin cannot be the only one who stands up for a righteous lifestyle! Indeed, that would be most unfortunate… Lol.


A Paladin of at least 3rd level constantly produces an aura that grants a morale bonus equal to their Charisma modifier to all Charisma based skill checks and to all Craft, Knowledge, and Profession skill checks, as long as those checks are performed as part of the pursuit of Righteous behavior.

However, if a creature performs Unrighteous behavior within the radius of the Aura, the Paladin may make an attack of opportunity against them, which deals damage as with a Fist of Proper Behavior attack, regardless of whether or not the Paladin threatens that creature. Every creature within the aura is aware that they will be struck if they so much as walk a hair off the proper path. How large is the aura? Also, I think it reads better as: "A Paladin of at least 3rd level emits an aura of radius X feet, which grants to all allies within the area a morale bonus on all Craft, Knowledge, Profession, and Charisma-based skill checks equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier. This bonus only applies when making checks as part of the pursuit of Righteous behavior.

However, if a creature within the radius of the aura, whom the Paladin threatens, performs Unrighteous behavior, the creature provokes an attack of opportunity from the Paladin. He may only use this attack of opportunity to perform a smite attack. etc."


Majesty of the Law (Su): A Paladin cannot look like some bedraggled vagrant; they are the face of the law, and the law is beauty.

A Paladin of at least 4th level shares all benefits of their Zealot's Cause class feature with any creature that they are currently riding, the beast's pelt and accoutrements cleaning themselves, becoming bright and beautiful.

A Paladin of at least 7th level has become the beautiful face of the law; they gain a gaze attack that forces creatures to make a Will save against their Chide the Wayward Children class feature.

In addition, the attitude of any Aware creature towards the Paladin or any other creature that makes or regulates laws start at Friendly, and improve by 1 step otherwise.

Finally, any Aware creature treats any direct order by the Paladin as if it were a relevant law for the purpose of whether or not they are performing Righteous or Unrighteous behavior. A Paladin needs to take a Standard action to issue an order in combat, as they must place the full weight of their authority behind the words. These effects seem somewhat dissimilar to be handed out as the same ability. They don't scale intuitively, and in particular the 7th-level ability should be part of Chide, not this. However, if you want to keep them grouped, I would word it like this: "Beginning at 4th level, any creature that the Paladin rides may gain the benefit of the Paladin's Zealot's Cause ability. The beasts… etc. At 7th level, the Paladin can use his Chide the Wayward Children ability as a gaze attack with a range of X feet; this gaze attack only has an active effect, not a passive one." The last two abilities, what level do they come at?


Book of the Law (Su): A Paladin cannot enforce the law if they aren't aware of it, can they?

A Paladin of at least 4th level automatically becomes Aware, if they weren't already. In addition, they may use Detect Evil at will as a Spell-Like ability; however, in their obsession for the observation of law, they see any creature that has performed Unrighteous behavior as Evil.I would just call it Detect Unrighteous, and say it works like Detect Evil. Also, does it detect creatures which have been Unrighteous at any point in their lives, or is there a time limit?


How the Paladin responds to this is entirely based off of their personalities; some simply try to redeem the wayward children, while others see them as worthy of nothing more than death. I'm not sure this is necessary, simply due to being kind of obvious. It's a fun sentence, though, so maybe you should leave it in.


Repair Broken Cogs (Su): It's a pity how some creatures simply go astray; a Paladin knows that, in their utter wisdom, sometimes creatures need to be... fixed.

A Paladin of at least 5th level may, as part of a ritual that takes 24 hours, Fix a willing Aware creature. Once they have done so, that creature no longer receives Will Save to end their Awareness. "receives a Will save". Hm, permanent awareness? Cool.


Additionally, that creature treats any charm or compulsion effect that attempts to make them perform Unrighteous behavior as if it were a suicidal order, and they must perform a Will save against the DC of the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child class feature to even perform any Unrighteous action.

Finally, that creature's alignment shifts one step towards Lawful. I would rewrite this thusly: "A creature which has been affected by this ability must make a Will save (DC X) or have its alignment shifted one step closer to Lawful. In addition, the affected creature abhors unrighteous behavior, and treats any charm or compulsion effect that attempts to make them perform Unrighteous behavior as if it were a suicidal order." Or something like that.


True Condemnation (Su): Sometimes, it isn't enough to simply chastise a creature; examples must be made, after all. dun dun DUUUUUUUUN!


A Paladin of at least 6th level, whenever they would be able to apply their Chide the Wayward Child class feature, may instead choose to simply Condemn them.

This causes the creature to make a Fortitude save against the same DC as their Chide the Wayward Child class feature; upon failing this save, they die from their lawbreaking ways, as they simply burst out of their skin in patterns of blood which serve to tell anyone who can read the precise patterns precisely which laws that the lawbreaker broke.

This is a Death effect. The "them" in the first sentence is ambiguous, change it to "the target" or "the subject". After the semicolon, should maybe read "on a failed save, the target creature bursts out of its skin, dying instantly due to its lawbreaking ways (this is a Death effect). The blood patterns serve to tell anyone who can read them precisely which laws the lawbreaker broke." And then include some rules there for being able to rad the blood patterns.


Excise Tumors from Society (Su): A Paladin cannot work alone; this is a fundamental fact. Everyone must pitch in to aid in their crusade!

A Paladin of at least 6th level may use Aid Another as an Immediate action; in addition, the next attack made by a creature that the Paladin performs an Aid Another for is augmented by either Chide the Wayward Child or True Condemnation, whichever would be more relevant. Can they Aid Another more than once per round using this ability? Clarify either way.

Also, if the second ability only triggers on an Aid Another -> attack, it should read like this: "in addition, whenever the Paladin successfully uses Aid Another to increase an ally's attack roll, if that attack roll is successful, the attacked creature is also affected by either the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child ability or his True Condemnation ability, chosen by the Paladin when making the Aid Another attempt."

If it triggers on any Aid Another (skill checks, etc.) then it should read like this: "in addition, whenever the Paladin successfully uses Aid Another on an ally, the next time that ally makes an attack against a creature, the attacked creature is also affected by either the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child ability or his True Condemnation ability (assuming the attack is successful), chosen by the Paladin when making the Aid Another attempt."


Long Arm of the Law (Su): It is simply amazing how many think that they can escape the reach of the law. It is a fool's gambit. The law is everywhere. Love this. "Fool's gambit" is such an evocative phrase… :D


A Paladin of at least 7th level that makes an attack of opportunity due to Aura of Conviction does not use up an attack of opportunity from their allotment that round; it would be ridiculous if punishment was curbed by something so pitiful. "Whenever a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from a Paladin of at least 7th level due to the Paladin's Aura of Conviction ability, that attack does not use up one of the Paladin's attacks of opportunity for the round; it would be ridiculous…"


In addition, the Paladin may forgo performing an attack of opportunity to instead Silenced, as per the spell, for 1 round per caster level of the Paladin, as their traitorous words simply stop at their lips, thus preventing their heresy from spreading. "In addition, the Paladin may choose to forgo the attack of opportunity granted by Aura of Conviction, in which case the offending creature is silenced, as per the spell with a caster level equal to the Paladin's caster level for invocations. Their traitorous words simply stop at their lips, thus preventing their heresy from spreading."


Laws are Life (Su): It is true that laws are far more important in this world than such pitiful requirements such as food and sleep. The Paladin, in their mercy, extends such benefits to all that choose to see the true path.

A Paladin of at least 8th level does not need to eat, sleep, or drink; the benefits of this do not apply on any day in which they perform an unrighteous act. This benefit (and restriction) also extends to any creature Fixed by the Paladin, or that is Aware and within the Paladin's Aura of Conviction. Lol. Nice.


Laws are Truth (Su): Why do creatures choose to break laws? It must be madness; therefor it is. "therefore"


A Paladin of 9th level's ability to guide the wayward improves.

The Paladin may apply Chide the Wayward Child to their Aura, affecting any non-Awakened creature that tries to enter. They must make this save once every 24 hours that they spend inside the aura. "The Paladin may choose to have his Chide the Wayward Child ability affect any non-Awakened creature who enters within range of his aura. Such a creature only receives a save once every 24 hours spent within the Paladin's aura." Also, which aura? Conviction, or Righteous Presence?


In addition, the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child and True Condemnation class features now ignore any immunity to Mind-Affecting and Death effects that a creature may have; not even the dead escape the law. Sweet. I will say that normally when brewing, whenever I make an ability pierce immunities, I generally give an ex-immune creature a +4 or +5 bonus on the save. Up to you, though.


Perfect Harmony Forever (Su): In a Paladin's ideal world, the trains run on time, and they themselves are unneeded. Trains are anachronistic, though I like the image.


Any creature that fails 2 consecutive saves against a Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child class feature automatically becomes Fixed, as per the Paladin's Repair Broken Cogs class feature. They need to succeed on 2 consecutive saves to lose their Awareness. "Any creature affected by the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child ability must make 2 consecutive saves to end the effect instead of 1. Conversely, if an affected creature fails two consecutive saves, the creature becomes Fixed (as per the Paladin's Repair Broken Cogs class feature)."


In addition, any organization where at least half of it's members are Aware is treated as if all of it's members were within the Paladin's Aura of Conviction; any creature that joins the organization is treated as if they just entered the Paladin's Aura. Need to define what counts as an organization. Also: "Any creature that belongs to an organization where at least half of the members became Aware due to the same Paladin gains the benefit of that Paladin's Aura of Conviction ability. Whenever a creature joins such an organization, it is treated as if it just entered within range of the Paladin's Aura." Need to specify that the awareness came from the same Paladin, otherwise which Aura do they get the benefit from?


Finally, a creature's Awareness is practically contagious; any creature that comes in contact with an item created through a Craft check augmented by the Paladin's Aura of Conviction, or that gains money through a Profession check augmented by the Paladin's Aura, must make a Will save against the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child class feature. They are only forced to make this save once per day per object. Weird… have the Paladin's artificer cohort sell items at a discount, and make the whole world Aware. :D Anyway, "Finally, a Paladin learns that Awareness of the law must be contagious, or creatures slip slowly into Unrighteousness. Whenever a creature makes an item with a Craft check augmented by the Paladin's Aura of Conviction, or gains money from a Profession check augmented by the Aura, that creature is affected by the Paladins' Chide the Wayward Child class feature; additionally, any creature which comes in contact with an item made with a Craft check augmented by the Aura is similarly affected. A creature affected in this way need only make a save once per day per object."

Also, you need to define what "comes in contact" means -- skin contact? In possession?


PLAYING A PALADIN
You are a scythe through a field of the law-breaking. It is rather pathetic, the level of resistance that they give.
Combat: A Paladin at first fights like any Warlock, augmenting their attacks with Chide the Wayward Child. After all, striking a law-keeper is against the law, most of the time. Later, they may simply strike down a creature that disobeys the law, or even a direct order...
Advancement: A Paladin may follow any path after they finish their pursuit of the law; there is no real amount of restriction towards how they will advance after they reach their apotheosis.
Resources: A Paladin will be supported by whatever organization that they are a part of; they will especially be aided by the Devils that took their pact, as are they not the most righteous of creatures? They break no laws, and the Paladin is indebted to them.

PALADINS IN THE WORLD
I can't say nothing bad about him; that's against the law.

Paladins are seen as terrors by criminals, blessed guardians by law-abiding citizens that have never met one, terrors by law-abiding citizens who have met them, and as wonderful friends by those who have been... repaired by a Paladin.
Daily Life: A Paladin will follow the schedule for their organization for all of their lives, until the organization either falls or they draw their final breaths.
Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class).
Organizations: A Paladin is part of any organization that will take them; there are even orders made purely of Paladins, which make their own laws… I really like all of this -- in fact, I want more! Can you flesh it out a little more?

Overall: great class :D I'm still not sure where the Warlock connection comes in… I feel like there's something I'm missing. Either way, there are only a couple abilities which synergize with warlock stuff. Maybe build more interconnectivity into the class features?

Holy crap, this PEACH is long. Um… don't feel the need to respond to everything I said, just the things you want more discussion on. :smallwink:

[sirpercival]

I would also appreciate one, as I feel like I've done some weird things I could use more eyes to look over.

I'll try to get to it today or tomorrow.

[Fable Wright]

Hm... I'd like to trade PEACHes with you sometime, sirpercival. I'll probably get one for the Clockwork Cenobite up either tonight or sometime over the weekend.

[sirpercival]

GEOMETRIST dooooobie do waaaaaaaaaah


{opening fluff}OCD psions? Yes. Yes indeed. :D


BECOMING A GEOMETRIST
How you would normally become a member of this prestige class. Don't forget this!


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment: Any Lawful
Special: Kineticist Psion
Feat: Psionic Meditation Why kineticist? Is it so you can put everything in order? Lol. Interesting to see how this shakes out, given that kineticist is generally an average choice for a psion. But hey, blasty can be nasty!


{game rule information} Why are some of the skills starred? If it's because they're psionic skills, then take out the stars, no one cares anymore. Better skill points than a normal psion, but no more skills to spend them on? Hm. Standard psion chassis, 9/10 progression is good. Why don't you put the psi progression in the table? That seems kinda weird…


Weapon Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.…?


Ordering Power (Ex): The Geometrist likes nothing more than for things to be neat and tidy. This can have a variety of meanings, and in a pinch, objects existing in an arrangement as simple as a circle or line is enough, especially when dealing with terminally disorganized things like living creatures.

When the Geometrist manifests a psionic power that affects an Area (i.e. burst, emanation, spread, cone, line, sphere, etc.) he may expend his Psionic focus to make that power an Ordering Power. Oh, so this is a metapsionic class feature. ;)


Ordering Powers exert their manifester’s will on creatures near their area of effect. All creatures within 10ft of an Area targeted by an Ordering Power must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + the Power’s level + Int Mod + ½ class level) to resist this powerful draw.

A creature that makes its save remains unmoved. Creatures failing the save by 5 or less are pulled 5’ closer to the nearest square affected by the power. Creatures failing by 10 or less are pulled inexorably into the nearest square affected by the power. All other creatures failing their save are pulled inexorably into the nearest square affected by the power and knocked prone.

Creatures moved into the area affected by the power are affected by the power as if they had been within the area when the power was manifested. OK, so some questions. First, what does this effect have to do with being Ordered? I like the ability, but I'm not sure the name & fluff match the mechanics. About the mechanics… how do things like a dwarf's stability affect the psi-gravity? What about Freedom of Movement? It feels like such things should matter, but the way it's written now would certainly exclude the former, and possibly the latter as well. Also, why have 1/2 class level and power level? You don't usually see both.

If you want to keep it as-is, my suggestion for rewording: "All creatures within 10 feet of any square affected by the power must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + power level + Int mod + 1/2 class level) or be drawn 5 feet closer to the nearest square affected by the power. A failure by 5 or more pulls a creature fully into the nearest square affected by the power, causing the creature to also be affected by the power as if they had been within the area originally. A failure by 10 or more causes the creature to be knocked prone as well."

However, an alternative is to make it a bull rush effect: "All creatures within 5 feet per class level of any square affected by the power are subject to a bull rush towards the nearest affected square. Treat the power as a Large creature with a Strength modifier equal to 1/2 the power's manifested level, except that the power can bull rush any size creature, and it gains a bonus to the opposed Strength check equal to the level of the Ordered power. Any creature moved at least 10 feet by this effect is knocked prone when they arrive at their destination. A creature who is bull rushed stops in the nearest affected square even if the result of the opposed check would be sufficient to move them farther."

Take what you like, leave the rest.


Ducks in a Row (Ex): The Geometrist works best when he can keep himself well organized. Nice, straight lines are mentally stimulating, and not surprisingly, that has a very visceral effect when that mental power is unleashed.

Any time the Geometrist manifests a power that affects multiple targets but not an area, this effect activates. If the Geometrist and at least two targets of the power occupy the same line, the Power being manifested is automatically and freely Empowered. Hm, not crazy about the Empowering. How about instead, "if the Geometrist and at least two targets of the power form a straight line, the manifester level {or DC, not sure which works better} of the power increases by the one less than the total number of targets who make up that straight line."


Everything in its Place (Ps): Sentient beings are chronically uncooperative with the Geometrist’s preferences for organization. Even if he puts them in a nice, neat order they will rebel and move about and generally wreak havoc on his schemes. A simple solution is called for, which comes in the form of a unique ability they develop.

The Geometrist can manifest Everything in its Place at-will as a Psi-like ability.

Everything in its Place

Level: Psion 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. +10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 5

Directed Psionic Energies lace the ground around your target, forming a flowing field of telekinetic power that glows in a directed field, pointed toward where your target is currently standing.

The square(s) the creature is currently occupying will be referred to as “center square(s)” in the following description. All squares within 10’ of the target that are not center squares become Difficult Terrain. Any creature ending its turn within the area of the field is automatically moved in a straight line to the nearest center square. If this movement is obstructed, the creature is moved as close as possible along the straight line but is otherwise unharmed.

Augment

For every 4 additional power points you spend, the area this power affects increases by 5’.

By spending an additional 5 power points, the each square of difficult terrain created by this power costs 3 squares of movement.
Well, at the moment it's not a unique ability, since any psion can learn the power. You use the word "field" twice in the first sentence, which bothers me aesthetically… The whole thing with the "center squares" just doesn't read properly. Try this: "All squares within 10 feet of the target are considered Difficult Terrain. In addition, any creature who ends their movement within 10 feet of the target is automatically moved in a straight line to the nearest square adjacent to the target. If all adjacent squares are occupied (or if there is a barrier blocking the movement in some way), an affected creature moves as close to the target as possible, in a straight line. Movement caused by this power does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

Balance-wise, I might give the creatures a save to resist the effect. Also, what happens when they start their turn adjacent? Can they move away at no penalty besides the difficult terrain? It might be cool to force a second save to move away.

I personally love this power. It makes tanking a million times easier. Craft it into a potion, or as a 1/day Third Eye Gravity or something, for the melee brute to carry around.


Stillness of Mind: Now and then, everyone needs a moment to catch their breath. A calm time to themselves to recoup and come back swinging harder. For the Geometrist, taking even a brief moment to quiet their minds in the midst of the chaos of battle can be a powerful thing.

As a move action, the Geometrist can make a Concentration check. The next power he manifests that round is considered Heightened 1 level for every 5 points the Concentration check exceeds the power’s DC (10 + power level + Int mod.) Hm, interesting. It feels like it should be related to Psionic Focus in some way… my suggestion is, rather than referring to Heighten, just add a bonus to the DC. It's a little cleaner. Also, you should indicate that it's the base DC of the power, otherwise it might get confusing.

And as I'm thinking about it, divorcing the Concentration check from the actual act of manifesting the power seems weird. It's like saying "write down the result, you'll need it later… unless you don't, if you don't get around to manifesting a power". How about just activating this ability as a move action, and then when you manifest the power you make a Concentration check at the same time?


Reorientation: As any Geometrist will tell you, they are nothing but flexible. They understand the world can’t revolve around them, and not everything can be perfectly lined up just for them. As long as things are lined up for someone they can make do. See? Perfectly flexible.

When manifesting any power that affects a Line area, the Geometrist can manifest it as if he were standing anywhere within a circle centered on him with radius equal to the spell’s range to which he has line of sight. The spell can be aimed in any direction from this point, but any area that would be affected beyond this circle is, instead, not. OK, rewrite time: "Whenever manifesting a power which affects a Line, the Geometrist can have the spell originate from any square within the power's range to which he has line of sight, oriented in any direction. However, the effects of the power do not extend further from him than the range of the power, no matter where the origin square is. For example, a Geometrist manifesting Energy Bolt in an open meadow could cause the line to originate from any square within 120 feet, but if the 120-foot line would extend further than 120 feet from him, the effect would terminate at the power's maximum range."


Matching Set: Organization goes beyond simple spatial placement but still, please don’t move that, it’s there for a reason. If possible, things should share common characteristics as well, or at least all receive the same treatment so one doesn’t stand out.

Any time the Geometrist and at least two allies occupy the same line, all Personal effects affecting the Geometrist are shared among all of his allies occupying that line. Nice ability, I like it. By the way, I forgot to say: can you add level keys to the abilities? Nice if you don't have to keep flipping back and forth to the table to figure out when you get what ability.


Placing Everything: Sometimes, you just need to move something and move it fast. Creatures don’t understand that there is a place for them, no matter how gently you might suggest it to them. Eventually, you can’t be gentle anymore.

The Geometrist can manifest Shunt as a psi-like ability. I really think that maybe you should have a New Powers spoiler at the end, which has Everything In Its Place and Shunt in it. Makes things a little cleaner.


Shunt


Level: 5
Display: Material and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action (See below)
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will Negates (See below)
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 9

You forcibly teleport one creature against its will up to 25’ in any direction. Creatures cannot be teleported to an environment that cannot support them.

If this power is manifested as a standard action, there is no save. This power can, alternatively, be manifested as a Swift action. In this case, a successful Will save prevents the teleportation.

Augment

For every additional power point you spend, the distance you can teleport the target increases by 5’. For ever 10’ this distance increases, the save DC increases by 1.

Pretty nuts, actually… I might force an attack roll, if you have a way to remove the save. Note that the previous power was a Psion power, and this one isn't. I would aim for consistency. Also, can you teleport someone into an area which has spells & whatnot affecting the area? Like, toss that guy back into the Black Tentacles?


Clean and Neat: Efficiency is key. The more efficiently something can be done, the more that thing should be done. It just makes sense.

By expending his Psionic Focus, the Geometrist can cause Powers he manifests that affect an area have additional, powerful effects based on the number of creatures affected.

{table=head]Number of Creatures | Additional Effect
1 | None
2 | Power is Empowered
3 | Power is Twinned
4 | Power is Maximized
5 | Power is Maximized and Empowered
6+ | Power is Maximized, Empowered, and Twinned
[/table] I'm not sure why Maximize is easier than Twin, since a lot of the time x2 is better than max… I also am just not crazy about having metapower effects… or if you're going to include them, require at least one of them in the prereqs? Also, do creatures with PR or who make their saves count as being affected? Either way this should be clarified.


Psionic Tether (Ps): No matter how hard you try, some things will just never work the way you want them to. A little delusion never hurts. Just pretend that orc is standing dutifully in its spot, and act accordingly.

At will, as a swift action, the Geometrist can mentally “tether” a creature to a point. The creature and the square it is in are both marked for a number of rounds equal to the Geometrist’s Int score. For this duration, a glowing psionic tether connects the creature with the square it was in when this ability was used. During this time, for the purposes of the Geometrist’s Powers and abilities, the Geometrist can target any square the tether passes through as if the creature occupied that square. Abilities that affect multiple squares still only affect the creature once. Cool ability! I'm not crazy about the wording, but I can't think of another way to word it right now...


Your Place in the Universe: Having finally reached a level of mastery of using his psionic powers to order the world around him, the Geometrist turns them upon himself, finally having found a way to bring a little bit of quiet to his own existence. Ensconsed deep within his safe place, the Geometrist places his mental capacities within a special item, stored safely exactly where it is meant to be. From the safety of its new home, his mind is free to purge the body of the roiling maelstrom of blood, and guide his newly forged body in full knowledge that, no matter where his body may go, his mind is always truly exactly where it should be.

The Geometrist’s type changes to Undead. Do not recalculate BAB saves or skill points, size remains unchanged. Change all past and future HD to d12s. His base natural armor increases by 5."Ensconced" is how it's spelled. So basically he becomes a psionic lich? I'm not sure I like this capstone…

He gains the Intelligence Drain special attack.

Intelligence Drain (Su): Any intelligent creature the Geometrist hits with a touch attack must succeed a Will save (DC 10 + ½ HD + Int mod) or take 1d6 points of Int drain.

He gains the following Special Qualities.

Turn Resistance (Ex): The Geometrist has +6 turn resistance.

Damage Reduction (Ex): The Geometrist’s body is tried and preserved through processes known only to himself. This gives his body damage reduction 10/bludgeoning and magic.

Fast Healing (Ex): The psionic energies keeping his body moving and his consciousness active in the body actively seek out new material to repair wounds the body suffers. He gains Fast Healing 2.

Empty Bodied Clarity (Ex): Increase the Geometrist as follows: +2 Int, +2 Wis.

Immunities (Ex): As his mind isn’t actually contained in the brain anymore, the Geometrist gains certain immunities. He becomes immune to polymorph and mind-affecting spells and abilities.

The Special Place

To undergo his final transformation into a creature of quiet, preserved order, the Geometrist must ensconce his consciousness in a crystal in a ritual that takes 3 days and 5000g worth of materials. This crystal retains the true source of his intellect, and unless it is destroyed, a slain Geometrist can reconstruct a body from base particles and resurrect in 1d6 weeks.

The Special Place has a manifester level equal to the creator’s manifester level at the time of creation. It is a Tiny object, made of some form of crystal and having 40 hit points, 20 hardness, and a break DC of 40. I would spoiler all of the effects of this together.

Yeah, not crazy about the capstone. It just seems kinda out of left field… the rest of the abilities are about manipulating powers in different ways. I'll see if I can come up with any new capstone ideas… right now I'm really tired and am blanking on them.

Very interesting class! I think you went a unique direction with the theme.



Hm... I'd like to trade PEACHes with you sometime, sirpercival. I'll probably get one for the Clockwork Cenobite up either tonight or sometime over the weekend.

Sounds good.

[sirpercival]

GEOMETRIST dooooobie do waaaaaaaaaah


{opening fluff}OCD psions? Yes. Yes indeed. :D


BECOMING A GEOMETRIST
How you would normally become a member of this prestige class. Don't forget this!


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment: Any Lawful
Special: Kineticist Psion
Feat: Psionic Meditation Why kineticist? Is it so you can put everything in order? Lol. Interesting to see how this shakes out, given that kineticist is generally an average choice for a psion. But hey, blasty can be nasty!


{game rule information} Why are some of the skills starred? If it's because they're psionic skills, then take out the stars, no one cares anymore. Better skill points than a normal psion, but no more skills to spend them on? Hm. Standard psion chassis, 9/10 progression is good. Why don't you put the psi progression in the table? That seems kinda weird…


Weapon Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.…?


Ordering Power (Ex): The Geometrist likes nothing more than for things to be neat and tidy. This can have a variety of meanings, and in a pinch, objects existing in an arrangement as simple as a circle or line is enough, especially when dealing with terminally disorganized things like living creatures.

When the Geometrist manifests a psionic power that affects an Area (i.e. burst, emanation, spread, cone, line, sphere, etc.) he may expend his Psionic focus to make that power an Ordering Power. Oh, so this is a metapsionic class feature. ;)


Ordering Powers exert their manifester’s will on creatures near their area of effect. All creatures within 10ft of an Area targeted by an Ordering Power must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + the Power’s level + Int Mod + ½ class level) to resist this powerful draw.

A creature that makes its save remains unmoved. Creatures failing the save by 5 or less are pulled 5’ closer to the nearest square affected by the power. Creatures failing by 10 or less are pulled inexorably into the nearest square affected by the power. All other creatures failing their save are pulled inexorably into the nearest square affected by the power and knocked prone.

Creatures moved into the area affected by the power are affected by the power as if they had been within the area when the power was manifested. OK, so some questions. First, what does this effect have to do with being Ordered? I like the ability, but I'm not sure the name & fluff match the mechanics. About the mechanics… how do things like a dwarf's stability affect the psi-gravity? What about Freedom of Movement? It feels like such things should matter, but the way it's written now would certainly exclude the former, and possibly the latter as well. Also, why have 1/2 class level and power level? You don't usually see both.

If you want to keep it as-is, my suggestion for rewording: "All creatures within 10 feet of any square affected by the power must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + power level + Int mod + 1/2 class level) or be drawn 5 feet closer to the nearest square affected by the power. A failure by 5 or more pulls a creature fully into the nearest square affected by the power, causing the creature to also be affected by the power as if they had been within the area originally. A failure by 10 or more causes the creature to be knocked prone as well."

However, an alternative is to make it a bull rush effect: "All creatures within 5 feet per class level of any square affected by the power are subject to a bull rush towards the nearest affected square. Treat the power as a Large creature with a Strength modifier equal to 1/2 the power's manifested level, except that the power can bull rush any size creature, and it gains a bonus to the opposed Strength check equal to the level of the Ordered power. Any creature moved at least 10 feet by this effect is knocked prone when they arrive at their destination. A creature who is bull rushed stops in the nearest affected square even if the result of the opposed check would be sufficient to move them farther."

Take what you like, leave the rest.


Ducks in a Row (Ex): The Geometrist works best when he can keep himself well organized. Nice, straight lines are mentally stimulating, and not surprisingly, that has a very visceral effect when that mental power is unleashed.

Any time the Geometrist manifests a power that affects multiple targets but not an area, this effect activates. If the Geometrist and at least two targets of the power occupy the same line, the Power being manifested is automatically and freely Empowered. Hm, not crazy about the Empowering. How about instead, "if the Geometrist and at least two targets of the power form a straight line, the manifester level {or DC, not sure which works better} of the power increases by the one less than the total number of targets who make up that straight line."


Everything in its Place (Ps): Sentient beings are chronically uncooperative with the Geometrist’s preferences for organization. Even if he puts them in a nice, neat order they will rebel and move about and generally wreak havoc on his schemes. A simple solution is called for, which comes in the form of a unique ability they develop.

The Geometrist can manifest Everything in its Place at-will as a Psi-like ability.

Everything in its Place

Level: Psion 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. +10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 5

Directed Psionic Energies lace the ground around your target, forming a flowing field of telekinetic power that glows in a directed field, pointed toward where your target is currently standing.

The square(s) the creature is currently occupying will be referred to as “center square(s)” in the following description. All squares within 10’ of the target that are not center squares become Difficult Terrain. Any creature ending its turn within the area of the field is automatically moved in a straight line to the nearest center square. If this movement is obstructed, the creature is moved as close as possible along the straight line but is otherwise unharmed.

Augment

For every 4 additional power points you spend, the area this power affects increases by 5’.

By spending an additional 5 power points, the each square of difficult terrain created by this power costs 3 squares of movement.
Well, at the moment it's not a unique ability, since any psion can learn the power. You use the word "field" twice in the first sentence, which bothers me aesthetically… The whole thing with the "center squares" just doesn't read properly. Try this: "All squares within 10 feet of the target are considered Difficult Terrain. In addition, any creature who ends their movement within 10 feet of the target is automatically moved in a straight line to the nearest square adjacent to the target. If all adjacent squares are occupied (or if there is a barrier blocking the movement in some way), an affected creature moves as close to the target as possible, in a straight line. Movement caused by this power does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

Balance-wise, I might give the creatures a save to resist the effect. Also, what happens when they start their turn adjacent? Can they move away at no penalty besides the difficult terrain? It might be cool to force a second save to move away.

I personally love this power. It makes tanking a million times easier. Craft it into a potion, or as a 1/day Third Eye Gravity or something, for the melee brute to carry around.


Stillness of Mind: Now and then, everyone needs a moment to catch their breath. A calm time to themselves to recoup and come back swinging harder. For the Geometrist, taking even a brief moment to quiet their minds in the midst of the chaos of battle can be a powerful thing.

As a move action, the Geometrist can make a Concentration check. The next power he manifests that round is considered Heightened 1 level for every 5 points the Concentration check exceeds the power’s DC (10 + power level + Int mod.) Hm, interesting. It feels like it should be related to Psionic Focus in some way… my suggestion is, rather than referring to Heighten, just add a bonus to the DC. It's a little cleaner. Also, you should indicate that it's the base DC of the power, otherwise it might get confusing.

And as I'm thinking about it, divorcing the Concentration check from the actual act of manifesting the power seems weird. It's like saying "write down the result, you'll need it later… unless you don't, if you don't get around to manifesting a power". How about just activating this ability as a move action, and then when you manifest the power you make a Concentration check at the same time?


Reorientation: As any Geometrist will tell you, they are nothing but flexible. They understand the world can’t revolve around them, and not everything can be perfectly lined up just for them. As long as things are lined up for someone they can make do. See? Perfectly flexible.

When manifesting any power that affects a Line area, the Geometrist can manifest it as if he were standing anywhere within a circle centered on him with radius equal to the spell’s range to which he has line of sight. The spell can be aimed in any direction from this point, but any area that would be affected beyond this circle is, instead, not. OK, rewrite time: "Whenever manifesting a power which affects a Line, the Geometrist can have the spell originate from any square within the power's range to which he has line of sight, oriented in any direction. However, the effects of the power do not extend further from him than the range of the power, no matter where the origin square is. For example, a Geometrist manifesting Energy Bolt in an open meadow could cause the line to originate from any square within 120 feet, but if the 120-foot line would extend further than 120 feet from him, the effect would terminate at the power's maximum range."


Matching Set: Organization goes beyond simple spatial placement but still, please don’t move that, it’s there for a reason. If possible, things should share common characteristics as well, or at least all receive the same treatment so one doesn’t stand out.

Any time the Geometrist and at least two allies occupy the same line, all Personal effects affecting the Geometrist are shared among all of his allies occupying that line. Nice ability, I like it. By the way, I forgot to say: can you add level keys to the abilities? Nice if you don't have to keep flipping back and forth to the table to figure out when you get what ability.


Placing Everything: Sometimes, you just need to move something and move it fast. Creatures don’t understand that there is a place for them, no matter how gently you might suggest it to them. Eventually, you can’t be gentle anymore.

The Geometrist can manifest Shunt as a psi-like ability. I really think that maybe you should have a New Powers spoiler at the end, which has Everything In Its Place and Shunt in it. Makes things a little cleaner.


Shunt


Level: 5
Display: Material and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action (See below)
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will Negates (See below)
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 9

You forcibly teleport one creature against its will up to 25’ in any direction. Creatures cannot be teleported to an environment that cannot support them.

If this power is manifested as a standard action, there is no save. This power can, alternatively, be manifested as a Swift action. In this case, a successful Will save prevents the teleportation.

Augment

For every additional power point you spend, the distance you can teleport the target increases by 5’. For ever 10’ this distance increases, the save DC increases by 1.

Pretty nuts, actually… I might force an attack roll, if you have a way to remove the save. Note that the previous power was a Psion power, and this one isn't. I would aim for consistency. Also, can you teleport someone into an area which has spells & whatnot affecting the area? Like, toss that guy back into the Black Tentacles?


Clean and Neat: Efficiency is key. The more efficiently something can be done, the more that thing should be done. It just makes sense.

By expending his Psionic Focus, the Geometrist can cause Powers he manifests that affect an area have additional, powerful effects based on the number of creatures affected.

{table=head]Number of Creatures | Additional Effect
1 | None
2 | Power is Empowered
3 | Power is Twinned
4 | Power is Maximized
5 | Power is Maximized and Empowered
6+ | Power is Maximized, Empowered, and Twinned
[/table] I'm not sure why Maximize is easier than Twin, since a lot of the time x2 is better than max… I also am just not crazy about having metapower effects… or if you're going to include them, require at least one of them in the prereqs? Also, do creatures with PR or who make their saves count as being affected? Either way this should be clarified.


Psionic Tether (Ps): No matter how hard you try, some things will just never work the way you want them to. A little delusion never hurts. Just pretend that orc is standing dutifully in its spot, and act accordingly.

At will, as a swift action, the Geometrist can mentally “tether” a creature to a point. The creature and the square it is in are both marked for a number of rounds equal to the Geometrist’s Int score. For this duration, a glowing psionic tether connects the creature with the square it was in when this ability was used. During this time, for the purposes of the Geometrist’s Powers and abilities, the Geometrist can target any square the tether passes through as if the creature occupied that square. Abilities that affect multiple squares still only affect the creature once. Cool ability! I'm not crazy about the wording, but I can't think of another way to word it right now...


Your Place in the Universe: Having finally reached a level of mastery of using his psionic powers to order the world around him, the Geometrist turns them upon himself, finally having found a way to bring a little bit of quiet to his own existence. Ensconsed deep within his safe place, the Geometrist places his mental capacities within a special item, stored safely exactly where it is meant to be. From the safety of its new home, his mind is free to purge the body of the roiling maelstrom of blood, and guide his newly forged body in full knowledge that, no matter where his body may go, his mind is always truly exactly where it should be.

The Geometrist’s type changes to Undead. Do not recalculate BAB saves or skill points, size remains unchanged. Change all past and future HD to d12s. His base natural armor increases by 5."Ensconced" is how it's spelled. So basically he becomes a psionic lich? I'm not sure I like this capstone…

He gains the Intelligence Drain special attack.

Intelligence Drain (Su): Any intelligent creature the Geometrist hits with a touch attack must succeed a Will save (DC 10 + ½ HD + Int mod) or take 1d6 points of Int drain.

He gains the following Special Qualities.

Turn Resistance (Ex): The Geometrist has +6 turn resistance.

Damage Reduction (Ex): The Geometrist’s body is tried and preserved through processes known only to himself. This gives his body damage reduction 10/bludgeoning and magic.

Fast Healing (Ex): The psionic energies keeping his body moving and his consciousness active in the body actively seek out new material to repair wounds the body suffers. He gains Fast Healing 2.

Empty Bodied Clarity (Ex): Increase the Geometrist as follows: +2 Int, +2 Wis.

Immunities (Ex): As his mind isn’t actually contained in the brain anymore, the Geometrist gains certain immunities. He becomes immune to polymorph and mind-affecting spells and abilities.

The Special Place

To undergo his final transformation into a creature of quiet, preserved order, the Geometrist must ensconce his consciousness in a crystal in a ritual that takes 3 days and 5000g worth of materials. This crystal retains the true source of his intellect, and unless it is destroyed, a slain Geometrist can reconstruct a body from base particles and resurrect in 1d6 weeks.

The Special Place has a manifester level equal to the creator’s manifester level at the time of creation. It is a Tiny object, made of some form of crystal and having 40 hit points, 20 hardness, and a break DC of 40. I would spoiler all of the effects of this together.

Yeah, not crazy about the capstone. It just seems kinda out of left field… the rest of the abilities are about manipulating powers in different ways. I'll see if I can come up with any new capstone ideas… right now I'm really tired and am blanking on them.

Very interesting class! I think you went a unique direction with the theme.



Hm... I'd like to trade PEACHes with you sometime, sirpercival. I'll probably get one for the Clockwork Cenobite up either tonight or sometime over the weekend.

Sounds good.

[sirpercival]

GEOMETRIST dooooobie do waaaaaaaaaah


{opening fluff}OCD psions? Yes. Yes indeed. :D


BECOMING A GEOMETRIST
How you would normally become a member of this prestige class. Don't forget this!


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment: Any Lawful
Special: Kineticist Psion
Feat: Psionic Meditation Why kineticist? Is it so you can put everything in order? Lol. Interesting to see how this shakes out, given that kineticist is generally an average choice for a psion. But hey, blasty can be nasty!


{game rule information} Why are some of the skills starred? If it's because they're psionic skills, then take out the stars, no one cares anymore. Better skill points than a normal psion, but no more skills to spend them on? Hm. Standard psion chassis, 9/10 progression is good. Why don't you put the psi progression in the table? That seems kinda weird…


Weapon Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.…?


Ordering Power (Ex): The Geometrist likes nothing more than for things to be neat and tidy. This can have a variety of meanings, and in a pinch, objects existing in an arrangement as simple as a circle or line is enough, especially when dealing with terminally disorganized things like living creatures.

When the Geometrist manifests a psionic power that affects an Area (i.e. burst, emanation, spread, cone, line, sphere, etc.) he may expend his Psionic focus to make that power an Ordering Power. Oh, so this is a metapsionic class feature. ;)


Ordering Powers exert their manifester’s will on creatures near their area of effect. All creatures within 10ft of an Area targeted by an Ordering Power must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + the Power’s level + Int Mod + ½ class level) to resist this powerful draw.

A creature that makes its save remains unmoved. Creatures failing the save by 5 or less are pulled 5’ closer to the nearest square affected by the power. Creatures failing by 10 or less are pulled inexorably into the nearest square affected by the power. All other creatures failing their save are pulled inexorably into the nearest square affected by the power and knocked prone.

Creatures moved into the area affected by the power are affected by the power as if they had been within the area when the power was manifested. OK, so some questions. First, what does this effect have to do with being Ordered? I like the ability, but I'm not sure the name & fluff match the mechanics. About the mechanics… how do things like a dwarf's stability affect the psi-gravity? What about Freedom of Movement? It feels like such things should matter, but the way it's written now would certainly exclude the former, and possibly the latter as well. Also, why have 1/2 class level and power level? You don't usually see both.

If you want to keep it as-is, my suggestion for rewording: "All creatures within 10 feet of any square affected by the power must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + power level + Int mod + 1/2 class level) or be drawn 5 feet closer to the nearest square affected by the power. A failure by 5 or more pulls a creature fully into the nearest square affected by the power, causing the creature to also be affected by the power as if they had been within the area originally. A failure by 10 or more causes the creature to be knocked prone as well."

However, an alternative is to make it a bull rush effect: "All creatures within 5 feet per class level of any square affected by the power are subject to a bull rush towards the nearest affected square. Treat the power as a Large creature with a Strength modifier equal to 1/2 the power's manifested level, except that the power can bull rush any size creature, and it gains a bonus to the opposed Strength check equal to the level of the Ordered power. Any creature moved at least 10 feet by this effect is knocked prone when they arrive at their destination. A creature who is bull rushed stops in the nearest affected square even if the result of the opposed check would be sufficient to move them farther."

Take what you like, leave the rest.


Ducks in a Row (Ex): The Geometrist works best when he can keep himself well organized. Nice, straight lines are mentally stimulating, and not surprisingly, that has a very visceral effect when that mental power is unleashed.

Any time the Geometrist manifests a power that affects multiple targets but not an area, this effect activates. If the Geometrist and at least two targets of the power occupy the same line, the Power being manifested is automatically and freely Empowered. Hm, not crazy about the Empowering. How about instead, "if the Geometrist and at least two targets of the power form a straight line, the manifester level {or DC, not sure which works better} of the power increases by the one less than the total number of targets who make up that straight line."


Everything in its Place (Ps): Sentient beings are chronically uncooperative with the Geometrist’s preferences for organization. Even if he puts them in a nice, neat order they will rebel and move about and generally wreak havoc on his schemes. A simple solution is called for, which comes in the form of a unique ability they develop.

The Geometrist can manifest Everything in its Place at-will as a Psi-like ability.

Everything in its Place

Level: Psion 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. +10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 5

Directed Psionic Energies lace the ground around your target, forming a flowing field of telekinetic power that glows in a directed field, pointed toward where your target is currently standing.

The square(s) the creature is currently occupying will be referred to as “center square(s)” in the following description. All squares within 10’ of the target that are not center squares become Difficult Terrain. Any creature ending its turn within the area of the field is automatically moved in a straight line to the nearest center square. If this movement is obstructed, the creature is moved as close as possible along the straight line but is otherwise unharmed.

Augment

For every 4 additional power points you spend, the area this power affects increases by 5’.

By spending an additional 5 power points, the each square of difficult terrain created by this power costs 3 squares of movement.
Well, at the moment it's not a unique ability, since any psion can learn the power. You use the word "field" twice in the first sentence, which bothers me aesthetically… The whole thing with the "center squares" just doesn't read properly. Try this: "All squares within 10 feet of the target are considered Difficult Terrain. In addition, any creature who ends their movement within 10 feet of the target is automatically moved in a straight line to the nearest square adjacent to the target. If all adjacent squares are occupied (or if there is a barrier blocking the movement in some way), an affected creature moves as close to the target as possible, in a straight line. Movement caused by this power does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

Balance-wise, I might give the creatures a save to resist the effect. Also, what happens when they start their turn adjacent? Can they move away at no penalty besides the difficult terrain? It might be cool to force a second save to move away.

I personally love this power. It makes tanking a million times easier. Craft it into a potion, or as a 1/day Third Eye Gravity or something, for the melee brute to carry around.


Stillness of Mind: Now and then, everyone needs a moment to catch their breath. A calm time to themselves to recoup and come back swinging harder. For the Geometrist, taking even a brief moment to quiet their minds in the midst of the chaos of battle can be a powerful thing.

As a move action, the Geometrist can make a Concentration check. The next power he manifests that round is considered Heightened 1 level for every 5 points the Concentration check exceeds the power’s DC (10 + power level + Int mod.) Hm, interesting. It feels like it should be related to Psionic Focus in some way… my suggestion is, rather than referring to Heighten, just add a bonus to the DC. It's a little cleaner. Also, you should indicate that it's the base DC of the power, otherwise it might get confusing.

And as I'm thinking about it, divorcing the Concentration check from the actual act of manifesting the power seems weird. It's like saying "write down the result, you'll need it later… unless you don't, if you don't get around to manifesting a power". How about just activating this ability as a move action, and then when you manifest the power you make a Concentration check at the same time?


Reorientation: As any Geometrist will tell you, they are nothing but flexible. They understand the world can’t revolve around them, and not everything can be perfectly lined up just for them. As long as things are lined up for someone they can make do. See? Perfectly flexible.

When manifesting any power that affects a Line area, the Geometrist can manifest it as if he were standing anywhere within a circle centered on him with radius equal to the spell’s range to which he has line of sight. The spell can be aimed in any direction from this point, but any area that would be affected beyond this circle is, instead, not. OK, rewrite time: "Whenever manifesting a power which affects a Line, the Geometrist can have the spell originate from any square within the power's range to which he has line of sight, oriented in any direction. However, the effects of the power do not extend further from him than the range of the power, no matter where the origin square is. For example, a Geometrist manifesting Energy Bolt in an open meadow could cause the line to originate from any square within 120 feet, but if the 120-foot line would extend further than 120 feet from him, the effect would terminate at the power's maximum range."


Matching Set: Organization goes beyond simple spatial placement but still, please don’t move that, it’s there for a reason. If possible, things should share common characteristics as well, or at least all receive the same treatment so one doesn’t stand out.

Any time the Geometrist and at least two allies occupy the same line, all Personal effects affecting the Geometrist are shared among all of his allies occupying that line. Nice ability, I like it. By the way, I forgot to say: can you add level keys to the abilities? Nice if you don't have to keep flipping back and forth to the table to figure out when you get what ability.


Placing Everything: Sometimes, you just need to move something and move it fast. Creatures don’t understand that there is a place for them, no matter how gently you might suggest it to them. Eventually, you can’t be gentle anymore.

The Geometrist can manifest Shunt as a psi-like ability. I really think that maybe you should have a New Powers spoiler at the end, which has Everything In Its Place and Shunt in it. Makes things a little cleaner.


Shunt


Level: 5
Display: Material and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action (See below)
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will Negates (See below)
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 9

You forcibly teleport one creature against its will up to 25’ in any direction. Creatures cannot be teleported to an environment that cannot support them.

If this power is manifested as a standard action, there is no save. This power can, alternatively, be manifested as a Swift action. In this case, a successful Will save prevents the teleportation.

Augment

For every additional power point you spend, the distance you can teleport the target increases by 5’. For ever 10’ this distance increases, the save DC increases by 1.

Pretty nuts, actually… I might force an attack roll, if you have a way to remove the save. Note that the previous power was a Psion power, and this one isn't. I would aim for consistency. Also, can you teleport someone into an area which has spells & whatnot affecting the area? Like, toss that guy back into the Black Tentacles?


Clean and Neat: Efficiency is key. The more efficiently something can be done, the more that thing should be done. It just makes sense.

By expending his Psionic Focus, the Geometrist can cause Powers he manifests that affect an area have additional, powerful effects based on the number of creatures affected.

{table=head]Number of Creatures | Additional Effect
1 | None
2 | Power is Empowered
3 | Power is Twinned
4 | Power is Maximized
5 | Power is Maximized and Empowered
6+ | Power is Maximized, Empowered, and Twinned
[/table] I'm not sure why Maximize is easier than Twin, since a lot of the time x2 is better than max… I also am just not crazy about having metapower effects… or if you're going to include them, require at least one of them in the prereqs? Also, do creatures with PR or who make their saves count as being affected? Either way this should be clarified.


Psionic Tether (Ps): No matter how hard you try, some things will just never work the way you want them to. A little delusion never hurts. Just pretend that orc is standing dutifully in its spot, and act accordingly.

At will, as a swift action, the Geometrist can mentally “tether” a creature to a point. The creature and the square it is in are both marked for a number of rounds equal to the Geometrist’s Int score. For this duration, a glowing psionic tether connects the creature with the square it was in when this ability was used. During this time, for the purposes of the Geometrist’s Powers and abilities, the Geometrist can target any square the tether passes through as if the creature occupied that square. Abilities that affect multiple squares still only affect the creature once. Cool ability! I'm not crazy about the wording, but I can't think of another way to word it right now...


Your Place in the Universe: Having finally reached a level of mastery of using his psionic powers to order the world around him, the Geometrist turns them upon himself, finally having found a way to bring a little bit of quiet to his own existence. Ensconsed deep within his safe place, the Geometrist places his mental capacities within a special item, stored safely exactly where it is meant to be. From the safety of its new home, his mind is free to purge the body of the roiling maelstrom of blood, and guide his newly forged body in full knowledge that, no matter where his body may go, his mind is always truly exactly where it should be.

The Geometrist’s type changes to Undead. Do not recalculate BAB saves or skill points, size remains unchanged. Change all past and future HD to d12s. His base natural armor increases by 5."Ensconced" is how it's spelled. So basically he becomes a psionic lich? I'm not sure I like this capstone…

He gains the Intelligence Drain special attack.

Intelligence Drain (Su): Any intelligent creature the Geometrist hits with a touch attack must succeed a Will save (DC 10 + ½ HD + Int mod) or take 1d6 points of Int drain.

He gains the following Special Qualities.

Turn Resistance (Ex): The Geometrist has +6 turn resistance.

Damage Reduction (Ex): The Geometrist’s body is tried and preserved through processes known only to himself. This gives his body damage reduction 10/bludgeoning and magic.

Fast Healing (Ex): The psionic energies keeping his body moving and his consciousness active in the body actively seek out new material to repair wounds the body suffers. He gains Fast Healing 2.

Empty Bodied Clarity (Ex): Increase the Geometrist as follows: +2 Int, +2 Wis.

Immunities (Ex): As his mind isn’t actually contained in the brain anymore, the Geometrist gains certain immunities. He becomes immune to polymorph and mind-affecting spells and abilities.

The Special Place

To undergo his final transformation into a creature of quiet, preserved order, the Geometrist must ensconce his consciousness in a crystal in a ritual that takes 3 days and 5000g worth of materials. This crystal retains the true source of his intellect, and unless it is destroyed, a slain Geometrist can reconstruct a body from base particles and resurrect in 1d6 weeks.

The Special Place has a manifester level equal to the creator’s manifester level at the time of creation. It is a Tiny object, made of some form of crystal and having 40 hit points, 20 hardness, and a break DC of 40. I would spoiler all of the effects of this together.

Yeah, not crazy about the capstone. It just seems kinda out of left field… the rest of the abilities are about manipulating powers in different ways. I'll see if I can come up with any new capstone ideas… right now I'm really tired and am blanking on them.

Very interesting class! I think you went a unique direction with the theme.



Hm... I'd like to trade PEACHes with you sometime, sirpercival. I'll probably get one for the Clockwork Cenobite up either tonight or sometime over the weekend.

Sounds good.

[Fable Wright]

Clockwork Cenobites PEACH
First impressions: An order of super-monks that wear armor that have mobility in a suit of metal. Unfortunately, they can't be Iron man, though they can come close.

Class Requirements
So, a 1-level Monk dip and 4 levels in any class with Concentration as a class skill. Monk is actually an amazing class for the first two levels, and decent for the next 4; this class seems like it offers abilities that make Monk actually worth taking for the next few levels. I'll consider it with a Monk 5 base, as that does get the most benefit from the class.

Chassis:
The saves are a bit odd; usually, they increase at a rate of +2/+3/+3/+4/+4, rather than +2/+2/+3/+3/+4. I'm going to assume that's a typo, for now.

d8 HD, which seems odd, given that they're moving in a tanky direction. Also doesn't help the Monk's need for Con, due to a low HD size. More skills, which were sorely needed, though the increase isn't explored that much in the fluff.

Full BAB, as expected. It's basically a direct improvement over the Monk chassis, which is already pretty amazing.

Monk abilities- why isn't Slow Fall progressed? I guess it's to keep people from gaining the ability after a monk dip, but why not just have a note that if you don't have the monk abilities at the time, they don't improve? I.e. Requiring monk level 4 in order to progress Slow Fall? It screws with the wording a bit, but it would fit better flavorfully.

Mechanus Skin:
Wait, monks are treated as unarmored in that? :smallconfused::smalleek:

They don't get Dex to AC, but they get unarmored speed boosts and Wis to AC. This is a bit of a fluff disconnect for me; including some note of why these abilities and benefits are still progressed in the least mobile suit of armor in the multiverse would be appreciated; they can move at lightning speeds and dodge many hits... but they can't tumble or jump for their life? Though, this does help the Monk's MAD a bit; they don't need to pump Dex as much, anymore...

I'm not entirely sure about this ability as it stands right now, though. At level 6, the Monk's AC is 21+Wis before things like Amulet of Natural Armor and Enhancement bonuses. It's probably fine, but it still sets off warning bells in my head when AC is improved by +8 or more suddenly. Maybe make the suit grow with the Cenobite? Give them the benefits of a Breastplate as they first take the class, which upgrades to full Mechanus plate at level 3? It probably doesn't affect the balance much, but it's something to think about.

Infinite Gyre:
This is the kind of ability that makes me nervous; it's a positive feedback loop. If you miss, you have a worse chance to hit, meaning you miss more, meaning you have an even worse chance to hit, and so on. In Rocket-Tag environments, this doesn't matter that much, but in long, drawn-out boss battles? This will either get the BBEG to try to ignore you (and you can't exactly force him to do otherwise, though you can close the distance to him well) or hit you with spells (which you shrug off, being a Monk and all), or eventually wind up with a flurry of misses on his attack step. I'm a bit worried about this, is all; it means that after a while, you no longer have to worry about getting hit in combat; Mooks can't hit you well, spells don't work very well, and anything that focuses on you begins to suffer penalties. Maybe just have the penalty expire 1 full round after the last attack that was made on the Cenobite? Otherwise, as a boss monster or something similar, it's going to be a nightmare to bring down.

Refined Musculature:
Even MORE AC Boosters! Flavor question, though: Why does the critical hit negate chance not increase as Refined Musculature improves? Also, the ACP is going to be killing the monk, even after gaining this ability...

Inevitable Strike:
Powerful; stick it on the last attack of a sequence, and force through some bonus damage, or stick it on the only attack you make in a round for some nice bonus damage. But, because it's 1/round and limited uses per day, it isn't that bad. I actually really like it.

Mechanus Motion:
This is why I don't understand why Slow Fall isn't progressed. Though, it brings up some interesting rules questions: If Roc tries to carry him off, what happens to him and the rock? If he's brought into an opponent's square through Swallow Whole, how does that work? And what other effects, aside from Bull Rush, moves him without teleporting him?

Either way, very flavorful ability. I like it.

Synchronocity:
Perhaps any ally within Slow Fall range? With the Cenobite being a fast, mobile combatant, making him shackle himself to an endpoint for this ability seems odd. Of course, with having him intercept in from a distance, that would bring up other questions if he didn't move adjacent to the ally to intercept the attack, but still. Other than that, it seems fine.

Ordered Flight:
Not within {slow fall distance} feet of the ground? And this feature grants no benefit who didn't actually take levels in the monk class? And does this speed get halved by the Mechanus plate? It's a good feature, as giving melee classes flight is important, but some bits do stick out as odd.

Great Gear of Nirvana:
...The monk punches someone and a gear comes out of nowhere and grapples them without actually grappling them. Okay then. I wouldn't make it a grapple, if you're not going to treat it like one; it's more of a Hold Monster effect that grants an additional save each round to escape.

Improved Inevitable Strike:
Automatic hits and double damage effects make me leery, especially when it also maximizes dice... Perhaps require 2 Stunning Fist uses for the upgrade, at least? The doubling maximized damage makes me nervous.

Immutability:
Weaker than normal SR; the Wis bonus isn't likely to be +5 or greater. Perhaps make it class level + character level + wis modifier?

Greater Synchronicity:
Seems good. It's a powerful ability, certainly, but it fits the power level at this stage of the game.

Perfection:
Bit of a lackluster ability, there. Living Construct is great and all, but it's an LA+0 race. There are full-casting classes granting LA+4 templates out there. Maybe bundle in the immunities for everyone, and throw in a nice ability that has a few uses per day. Perhaps something like Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) as an immediate action (1-3) times per day? Capstones should be something really good, and this one disappoints.

[Hyooz]

Oh god thank you so much SirPercival. I fought with so many of those wordings for so long and somehow you've cleaned them up so much more than I could manage.

And yeah, I'm not crazy about the capstone either. It started as an idea I thought would be fun, but like you said, it just kind of... appears. I'm playing with different, more fitting ideas.

So, again, thank you very much, this one definitely needed a solid once-over. I'll try to get a peach up for you soon.

[sirpercival]

Clockwork Cenobites PEACH Thank you!!


Chassis:
The saves are a bit odd; usually, they increase at a rate of +2/+3/+3/+4/+4, rather than +2/+2/+3/+3/+4. I'm going to assume that's a typo, for now. I think you'll see if you look at any published materials that my progression is the correct one. It's +0.5 per level with a +2 bonus at 1st level.


d8 HD, which seems odd, given that they're moving in a tanky direction. Also doesn't help the Monk's need for Con, due to a low HD size. More skills, which were sorely needed, though the increase isn't explored that much in the fluff. Do you think it would go amiss if I increased the HD to d10? That's the construct HD, anyway... so it probably makes sense. I'm going to change it.

Skills are identical to a monk (gotta love copy/paste).


Full BAB, as expected. It's basically a direct improvement over the Monk chassis, which is already pretty amazing. As I said... :)


Monk abilities- why isn't Slow Fall progressed? I guess it's to keep people from gaining the ability after a monk dip, but why not just have a note that if you don't have the monk abilities at the time, they don't improve? I.e. Requiring monk level 4 in order to progress Slow Fall? It screws with the wording a bit, but it would fit better flavorfully. I should add Slow Fall in now that there are class features based on it. Good call.


Mechanus Skin:
Wait, monks are treated as unarmored in that? :smallconfused::smalleek: Lol, yes! That's the basic idea.


They don't get Dex to AC, but they get unarmored speed boosts and Wis to AC. This is a bit of a fluff disconnect for me; including some note of why these abilities and benefits are still progressed in the least mobile suit of armor in the multiverse would be appreciated; they can move at lightning speeds and dodge many hits... but they can't tumble or jump for their life? Though, this does help the Monk's MAD a bit; they don't need to pump Dex as much, anymore... Well, it takes some getting used to, moving around in restrictive armor. At least that's the idea.


I'm not entirely sure about this ability as it stands right now, though. At level 6, the Monk's AC is 21+Wis before things like Amulet of Natural Armor and Enhancement bonuses. It's probably fine, but it still sets off warning bells in my head when AC is improved by +8 or more suddenly. Maybe make the suit grow with the Cenobite? Give them the benefits of a Breastplate as they first take the class, which upgrades to full Mechanus plate at level 3? It probably doesn't affect the balance much, but it's something to think about. I had considered doing something like that, actually, but I think the problem you're having is that it's a discontinuous jump from the base monk instead of a stepped progression. I don't mind it because it was starting from such a low point, you know? A monk/clockbite is still not as good as a crusader.


Infinite Gyre:
This is the kind of ability that makes me nervous; it's a positive feedback loop. If you miss, you have a worse chance to hit, meaning you miss more, meaning you have an even worse chance to hit, and so on. In Rocket-Tag environments, this doesn't matter that much, but in long, drawn-out boss battles? This will either get the BBEG to try to ignore you (and you can't exactly force him to do otherwise, though you can close the distance to him well) or hit you with spells (which you shrug off, being a Monk and all), or eventually wind up with a flurry of misses on his attack step. I'm a bit worried about this, is all; it means that after a while, you no longer have to worry about getting hit in combat; Mooks can't hit you well, spells don't work very well, and anything that focuses on you begins to suffer penalties. Maybe just have the penalty expire 1 full round after the last attack that was made on the Cenobite? Otherwise, as a boss monster or something similar, it's going to be a nightmare to bring down. Hm, maybe I'll put some sort of cooldown on it, that's a good idea.


Refined Musculature:
Even MORE AC Boosters! Flavor question, though: Why does the critical hit negate chance not increase as Refined Musculature improves? Also, the ACP is going to be killing the monk, even after gaining this ability... I forgot to put scaling on the fortification, good call. I should probably reduce the ACP by 3 each time... and Nimble is only a +1 bonus.


Inevitable Strike:
Powerful; stick it on the last attack of a sequence, and force through some bonus damage, or stick it on the only attack you make in a round for some nice bonus damage. But, because it's 1/round and limited uses per day, it isn't that bad. I actually really like it. Yay!


Mechanus Motion:
This is why I don't understand why Slow Fall isn't progressed. Though, it brings up some interesting rules questions: If Roc tries to carry him off, what happens to him and the rock? If he's brought into an opponent's square through Swallow Whole, how does that work? And what other effects, aside from Bull Rush, moves him without teleporting him?

Either way, very flavorful ability. I like it. I would think that the Roc's speed would be reduced by the requisite amount. And the swallow whole would either pull the creature into the clockbite's square or not work at all (DM's choice). Other things which could move him include things like weather, being tied up on a cart, etc. :smallwink:


Synchronocity:
Perhaps any ally within Slow Fall range? With the Cenobite being a fast, mobile combatant, making him shackle himself to an endpoint for this ability seems odd. Of course, with having him intercept in from a distance, that would bring up other questions if he didn't move adjacent to the ally to intercept the attack, but still. Other than that, it seems fine. I like the connectivity, so I'll adjust the wording to include it. I'm letting them intercept without moving, which is kind of anime but helps with balance, I think.


Ordered Flight:
Not within {slow fall distance} feet of the ground? And this feature grants no benefit who didn't actually take levels in the monk class? And does this speed get halved by the Mechanus plate? It's a good feature, as giving melee classes flight is important, but some bits do stick out as odd. Good comments, adjusted and clarified.


Great Gear of Nirvana:
...The monk punches someone and a gear comes out of nowhere and grapples them without actually grappling them. Okay then. I wouldn't make it a grapple, if you're not going to treat it like one; it's more of a Hold Monster effect that grants an additional save each round to escape. The problem is that Hold Monster is paralysis, which is not that difficult to be immune to. And Hold Monster also gets a save each round. Grappling applies specific penalties, which are the ones I want, even if it doesn't work very much like normal grappling.


Improved Inevitable Strike:
Automatic hits and double damage effects make me leery, especially when it also maximizes dice... Perhaps require 2 Stunning Fist uses for the upgrade, at least? The doubling maximized damage makes me nervous. Ah yes, that's a good idea. Altered.


Immutability:
Weaker than normal SR; the Wis bonus isn't likely to be +5 or greater. Perhaps make it class level + character level + wis modifier? So double counting the class levels? I'll just boost it to 10 base.


Greater Synchronicity:
Seems good. It's a powerful ability, certainly, but it fits the power level at this stage of the game. Also, the fact that you can't redirect a spell at an enemy reduces the brokenness of it. Someone's going to take the bullet, you can just point the gun at the person wearing the vest.


Perfection:
Bit of a lackluster ability, there. Living Construct is great and all, but it's an LA+0 race. There are full-casting classes granting LA+4 templates out there. Maybe bundle in the immunities for everyone, and throw in a nice ability that has a few uses per day. Perhaps something like Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) as an immediate action (1-3) times per day? Capstones should be something really good, and this one disappoints. Hm. Okay, I'll bœuf it up.

[Amechra]

sirpercival, he's right about the saves; your formula works out to be 1+(level+1)/2, not 2+(level)/2

[sirpercival]

sirpercival, he's right about the saves; your formula works out to be 1+(level+1)/2, not 2+(level)/2

:smalleek: Oh my! I completely misunderstood what he was saying, and didn't look at what I had done. Apologies, DMoD -- yes, it's a typo. I shall fix.

[Amechra]

Can I have a PEACH too?

If it isn't much trouble?

DMoD, I've been kind of busy; I'll try to get you your PEACH ASAP.

[sirpercival]

Can I have a PEACH too?

If it isn't much trouble? Is this to me? Because I did PEACH yours already...

[Amechra]

Curse you not sleeping!

I'll take a look.

[Amechra]

Ask, and ye shall receive! This is pretty much stream of consciousness.

Already said I love this.

Might be better to say "not well-defined" rather than "relevant" -- some of it can be relevant in relation to the original paladin's code. Or rather just say that you're defining them for the purposes of this class, with no bearing on other mechanical effects.

I'm not convinced that intention should make a difference. Ignorance is no excuse, right? Also, "the most relevant governing group" may not be well-defined in any given situation. From the rest of the fluff, it seems like maybe this should be more along the lines of "the laws which are convenient to the Paladin's mission & purpose". Laws conflict all over the place, even when laid down by the same governing body; a character will have to choose which laws to be enforcing at any given time, and being LE (even though they think they're in the right) will probably pick the convenient ones.

Maybe put in explicitly that orders from superiors always take precedence over the given laws. Also it's probably cleaner to include the "it's okay for violence" thing above to go along with that… something like "orders take precedence, & violence is okay" since they're both exceptions to the normal rule.

Ah, this is what I was talking about above.

Lol.

There's no way to satisfy this and not start out as evil, I think… or rather, you would have to achieve 5th level in warlock and then change your alignment to lawful, which might be easier said than done.

Also, the warlock part of this doesn't necessarily make sense thematically. Why would someone like this (who seems rather militant, tbh) take 5 levels of warlock? I understand the class features are synergistic, but I'm not sure the prereq is justified.
This doesn't necessarily seem to fit -- I would think that a better justification would be "to prevent them from breaking the law". Or is this a 0th Law thing? That makes some sense...

Don't forget this!

Don't forget saves… probably good fort & will, I would think. Full BAB and d10 HD is nice for a melee class, of course. 8/10 invocation progression is also good, my favorite balance point.

I understand why this is here, though I'm still a little confused why thematically this is a warlock prc. I might have expected to see this as a prereq, a la abjurant champion.

Hmm… normally this does progress Eldritch Blast, doesn't it? You require the CF but don't progress it? And you progress invocations but don't require them?

Very nice!

So a LE character taking, for example, exalted feats? Awesome. Instead of saying "consider themselves to be Good for the purposes of prerequisites", maybe should say "are considered to be etc.". While alignments are in-game constructs, prerequisites aren't.

I'm not sure how well this works as written. You're kinda dancing between game and metagame… the other flavor pieces seem to be inner-monologue-type stuff, while this is more of an aside to the reader. I'd pick one method and stick to it.

"They" is ambiguous. "…as laws are key…"

"Sometimes, one needs to…" reads a little more stentorian.

So literally replacing normal damage? Can the replacement damage be boosted with things like Power Attack? Also, it's not clear whether the EB damage stacks when smiting, or if it's only the opposite (smite damage stacking when EBing).

My suggestion, to make it much simpler, is just to have the "smite" damage be EB increases, and then have a smite be a melee attack which deals EB damage (+whatever). It's clean, and easy to adjudicate, and you can already add essences to EBs. The increased damage, as well, will most likely not be overpowered.

If you don't like that, make sure you at least indicate which caster level is being applied.

This is a little awkward. Flailing? Maybe: "A Paladin recognizes that those who remain when the dissidents have been weeded out may need some care and attention." Or something.

How about just saying they heal damage equal to their smite damage (however it's calculated)?

In addition, not alternatively, unless you intend them to choose which one when they gain the class feature and not be able to do the other.

Feats only? What if there are items, spells, soulmelds, etc. which would alter LoH?

This is a little indirect to determine. Why not say "as long as they are engaged in righteous behavior"?

"Flawless obsessions" is awesome. Sounds like a great band/song name :D

Maybe instead "is immune to Charisma penalties, damage, burn, and/or drain, as well as penalties to Charisma-based skill checks" would be cleaner.

Hm. OK, I had thought that "ignorance is no excuse" should be more central to the class. As in, shouldn't people learn the laws in the places they live? Otherwise how can they live righteously? I had thought the onus would be more heavily on the subjects. But it may be irrelevant anyway.

Alright, first of all the wording of this begs the question: what kind of action does the modification require? A better wording is probably: "Any time a Paladin of at least 3rd level successfully affects a creature with one of his invocations, as part of the same action he may also force the affected creature to roll a Will save (DC 10 + class level + Cha modifier) or become Aware. This is a mind-affecting effect." I love the phylactery of faithfulness idea, though it has a couple problems -- it requires the creature to concentrate on what they're about to do (though I guess the Paladin doesn't care about that, really), and it doesn't have any bearing on laws unless the target is lawful. It only matters about their alignment and deity. Perhaps you should say "it works like PoF except that the creature is aware of any act which conflicts with a Lawful alignment, no matter what the subject's true alignment" or something. Also, is the marking visible to others?

Lol.

How large is the aura? Also, I think it reads better as: "A Paladin of at least 3rd level emits an aura of radius X feet, which grants to all allies within the area a morale bonus on all Craft, Knowledge, Profession, and Charisma-based skill checks equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier. This bonus only applies when making checks as part of the pursuit of Righteous behavior.

However, if a creature within the radius of the aura, whom the Paladin threatens, performs Unrighteous behavior, the creature provokes an attack of opportunity from the Paladin. He may only use this attack of opportunity to perform a smite attack. etc."

These effects seem somewhat dissimilar to be handed out as the same ability. They don't scale intuitively, and in particular the 7th-level ability should be part of Chide, not this. However, if you want to keep them grouped, I would word it like this: "Beginning at 4th level, any creature that the Paladin rides may gain the benefit of the Paladin's Zealot's Cause ability. The beasts… etc. At 7th level, the Paladin can use his Chide the Wayward Children ability as a gaze attack with a range of X feet; this gaze attack only has an active effect, not a passive one." The last two abilities, what level do they come at?

I would just call it Detect Unrighteous, and say it works like Detect Evil. Also, does it detect creatures which have been Unrighteous at any point in their lives, or is there a time limit?

I'm not sure this is necessary, simply due to being kind of obvious. It's a fun sentence, though, so maybe you should leave it in.

"receives a Will save". Hm, permanent awareness? Cool.

I would rewrite this thusly: "A creature which has been affected by this ability must make a Will save (DC X) or have its alignment shifted one step closer to Lawful. In addition, the affected creature abhors unrighteous behavior, and treats any charm or compulsion effect that attempts to make them perform Unrighteous behavior as if it were a suicidal order." Or something like that.

dun dun DUUUUUUUUN!

The "them" in the first sentence is ambiguous, change it to "the target" or "the subject". After the semicolon, should maybe read "on a failed save, the target creature bursts out of its skin, dying instantly due to its lawbreaking ways (this is a Death effect). The blood patterns serve to tell anyone who can read them precisely which laws the lawbreaker broke." And then include some rules there for being able to rad the blood patterns.

Can they Aid Another more than once per round using this ability? Clarify either way.

Also, if the second ability only triggers on an Aid Another -> attack, it should read like this: "in addition, whenever the Paladin successfully uses Aid Another to increase an ally's attack roll, if that attack roll is successful, the attacked creature is also affected by either the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child ability or his True Condemnation ability, chosen by the Paladin when making the Aid Another attempt."

If it triggers on any Aid Another (skill checks, etc.) then it should read like this: "in addition, whenever the Paladin successfully uses Aid Another on an ally, the next time that ally makes an attack against a creature, the attacked creature is also affected by either the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child ability or his True Condemnation ability (assuming the attack is successful), chosen by the Paladin when making the Aid Another attempt."

Love this. "Fool's gambit" is such an evocative phrase… :D

"Whenever a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from a Paladin of at least 7th level due to the Paladin's Aura of Conviction ability, that attack does not use up one of the Paladin's attacks of opportunity for the round; it would be ridiculous…"

"In addition, the Paladin may choose to forgo the attack of opportunity granted by Aura of Conviction, in which case the offending creature is silenced, as per the spell with a caster level equal to the Paladin's caster level for invocations. Their traitorous words simply stop at their lips, thus preventing their heresy from spreading."

Lol. Nice.

"therefore"

"The Paladin may choose to have his Chide the Wayward Child ability affect any non-Awakened creature who enters within range of his aura. Such a creature only receives a save once every 24 hours spent within the Paladin's aura." Also, which aura? Conviction, or Righteous Presence?

Sweet. I will say that normally when brewing, whenever I make an ability pierce immunities, I generally give an ex-immune creature a +4 or +5 bonus on the save. Up to you, though.

Trains are anachronistic, though I like the image.

"Any creature affected by the Paladin's Chide the Wayward Child ability must make 2 consecutive saves to end the effect instead of 1. Conversely, if an affected creature fails two consecutive saves, the creature becomes Fixed (as per the Paladin's Repair Broken Cogs class feature)."

Need to define what counts as an organization. Also: "Any creature that belongs to an organization where at least half of the members became Aware due to the same Paladin gains the benefit of that Paladin's Aura of Conviction ability. Whenever a creature joins such an organization, it is treated as if it just entered within range of the Paladin's Aura." Need to specify that the awareness came from the same Paladin, otherwise which Aura do they get the benefit from?

Weird… have the Paladin's artificer cohort sell items at a discount, and make the whole world Aware. :D Anyway, "Finally, a Paladin learns that Awareness of the law must be contagious, or creatures slip slowly into Unrighteousness. Whenever a creature makes an item with a Craft check augmented by the Paladin's Aura of Conviction, or gains money from a Profession check augmented by the Aura, that creature is affected by the Paladins' Chide the Wayward Child class feature; additionally, any creature which comes in contact with an item made with a Craft check augmented by the Aura is similarly affected. A creature affected in this way need only make a save once per day per object."

Also, you need to define what "comes in contact" means -- skin contact? In possession?

I really like all of this -- in fact, I want more! Can you flesh it out a little more?

Overall: great class :D I'm still not sure where the Warlock connection comes in… I feel like there's something I'm missing. Either way, there are only a couple abilities which synergize with warlock stuff. Maybe build more interconnectivity into the class features?

Holy crap, this PEACH is long. Um… don't feel the need to respond to everything I said, just the things you want more discussion on. :smallwink:


Just as a quick response before I run out the door:

It's a Warlock PrC because, to me, thematically, Warlocks are the class most evocative to pact-making and transhumanist... stuff.

I also love the Warlock, and aim to give it as much love as possible.

You know, though, I might modify it so that it advances your caster level, and requires you have CL 5 and Detect Magic as a spell-like ability, thus letting Warlocks in naturally and giving other groups a little bit of hoop jumping to get in (you could take a 1 level dip in a couple things.)

Great suggestions, though; I see you like the fluff?

[Zallera]

Got my fowl rider about half done, Capstone involves a bizarre man-turkey fusion and the fluff is done just need to type it out.
Even though it is a bit of a silly class I'm kinda aiming it at being a cavalier who isn't total rubbish the second he steps off his mount.

[Kazyan]

Oh dear, what am I doing, I never finish these kinds of things and typo all over the place and I'm supposed to be NaNoing whaaaat.

Anyway, that's an intellectual-overtones thingie PrC for Dex-based melee builds and the Ferocity barbarian, both of which are awesome and need more love.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I made a very minor alteration to my entry, but one I think is important for use in a game. Ironically enough, it's the most vague and open-ended feature of the class. Humanoids can now access the class.

[Kazyan]

I'm done tweaking my entry, except for adding that NPC statblock. Also there are probably still typos err'where, because that's how it goes.

[Techwarrior]

And... Here comes an idea. I'll try to have the basics up tonight.

[Eurus]

I wasn't going to enter, since alignment isn't my thing, but I may have been bit by the idea bug. So I've put up the very sparse skeleton of the Rose Magistrate, a vaguely Confucian scholar-priest with nature magic. We'll see if I actually manage to finish the dang thing.

Also, I can't find a picture for the life of me. Or at least, not one that's available for use...

[Glimbur]

My class is up. It's... a thing.

[ErrantX]

7 day warning bell folks!

-X

[Eurus]

My entry should be finished. No idea if it's good, but it's finished. :smallamused:

[ErrantX]

I'll be posting the voting thread this afternoon, I was dog tired last night and am currently working atm. Just letting you all know I'm not dead and I have intentions.

-X

[sirpercival]

I'll be posting the voting thread this afternoon, I was dog tired last night and am currently working atm. Just letting you all know I'm not dead and I have intentions.

-X

Unacceptable, coo-roo! You must post now, r'coo-roo!

-Captain of Industry Pigeon

http://therecycletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Pompous_Pigeon_by_tuftedpuffin.jpg

[ErrantX]

Alright, a couple days late but hey, at least it happened :D

Here's the VOTING THREAD! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263867)


Go get at it, and I'll post the new contest soon.

-X

[sirpercival]

Hey Amechra, I just noticed: you're missing save progression on the Paladin... :(

[Morph Bark]

Y'know, I have a great idea for this contest, but I'd be afraid people would interpret the source of my inspiration entirely wrongly. :smallfrown:

[Amechra]

I know, I've been busy. If anyone still wants to consider it for voting, it has Will and Fort as its good saves.

[bindin garoth]

I saw the new contest, and long and behold, inspiration hit!

We'll see if I have time to 'brew it up for this contest.

[AntiMatter101]

Is there a requirement for number of levels the PrC must be?

I have an idea that would only be worth a few levels, not more than 5.

[ErrantX]

Is there a requirement for number of levels the PrC must be?

I have an idea that would only be worth a few levels, not more than 5.

That's fine. Not a problem at all.

-X

[Hyooz]

I'm knee-deep in Finals grading time, but as that peters down, I have a concept for a Good-aligned initiator-type PrC I'll be jumping into with gusto.

[TheGeckoKing]

Derp, DracoDei just showed me an error with the Ironwill's maneuver table (Thanks mate) - just assume Text Over Table for the Maneuvers Readied, so its 2nd and 4th, not 1st and 5th.

[Glimbur]

My class is up. I don't think I did anything too exotic, but I'd still like to trade PEACHes.

[enderlord99]

I have an idea for the next contest, if anyoneErrant is willing to listen:

Multiple-agents. Maybe spies for one agency, against another, who's true loyalties lie with a third... or maybe a loyal member of multiple organisations, which everyone else sees as mutually exclusive- and because of that, they have to keep secret the fact that they are manipulating those groups toward an alliance... or maybe something else. You (as in, the homebrewer) decide!

[Lord_Gareth]

Oi. On the one hand, I want to enter this contest. On the other hand, my life is REALLY busy - 40-hour work weeks and I just started my first quarter of college (woo!). I dunno, I'll put something up if I can. It'll be nice for once to work with people that aren't creepy and morally gray.

Well, not morally gray, anyway.

[ErrantX]

Oi. On the one hand, I want to enter this contest. On the other hand, my life is REALLY busy - 40-hour work weeks and I just started my first quarter of college (woo!). I dunno, I'll put something up if I can. It'll be nice for once to work with people that aren't creepy and morally gray.

Well, not morally gray, anyway.

I will be shocked if what you come up with is not both creepy and morally gray :smalltongue:

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

I will be shocked if what you come up with is not both creepy and morally gray :smalltongue:

-X

Morally un-gray is a requirement of the contest this time!

[Glimbur]

Morally un-gray is a requirement of the contest this time!

Good is the requirement of the contest. There might be some wiggle room there, depending on what exactly 'Good' means.

[sirpercival]

Alrighty, the mechanics for the Shadow Star Infiltrator are complete, though I still have to finish up the fluff. Any comments on the crunchery would be appreciated!

[hierophant]

Okay, I think I'm finished the Exempted. Might add a minor tweak or two. Tempted to up the BAB to 3/4, and might revise the skill list. But I'm happy with what I have up so far.

Any and all constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.

Here's my take on what else is up:

Shadow Star Infiltrator:

Looks good. Roguish. Well written, and I like the fluff.
Strong in and out of combat abilities, though Starborn might be a bit much for Bluff and Disguise checks.
I'd throw in a Continued Training clause to explain what happens if a character doesn't already have any of those abilities.
Other than that, solid. Gold star.

White Flame Wielder:

Heh. Okay, I'm not overly familiar with Pathfinder, but here goes.
I'm intrigued by the alignment requirement for higher levels. Simple, but I've never seen it before. Nifty.
Straightforward caster PrC that grants positive energy benefits. I'm a little confused by the arcane/divine differences, but I assume that would make sense if I knew PF properly.
Fairly narrow focus, but well executed. I probably wouldn't play one myself, but it's nice support for an "anti-necromancer" archetype that isn't just a cleric.

Crucible:

Fun concept. Table is missing some bits and pieces. Possible Maximise Spell abuse, but there are ways and ways of doing that already, so eh.
Nothing mind-blowing, but a nice, simple, easy to play class. I think we don't see enough of those anymore.

By manipulating the etheric vibrations of your spells, you can co-mingle their energy with the essence of Evil in your foes and... look, it’s magic. I laughed out loud at that :smallbiggrin:

[sirpercival]

Shadow Star Infiltrator:

Looks good. Roguish. Well written, and I like the fluff.
Strong in and out of combat abilities, though Starborn might be a bit much for Bluff and Disguise checks.
I'd throw in a Continued Training clause to explain what happens if a character doesn't already have any of those abilities.
Other than that, solid. Gold star.


Sweet!

I've scaled back the Starborn Bluff/Disguise bonus somewhat, and edited Continued Training as requested. Rock on! I like gold stars :smallbiggrin:

[Glimbur]

Thanks for the PEACH. Table is fixed.

Exempted is an interesting idea, though tough to get to work mechanically. So many different kinds of heroes can choose to always do the right thing and be shining paragons of Good. Let's see what you did with it.

Entry requirements are alright. You could require Exalted good, but honestly I don't like the Exalted mechanic.

Skills look reasonable, and 4+ is the lowest I like to see on a class.

Good Will save is obvious. I'll think more about BAB after I finish features.

Turn Undead but different is sensible. It scales pretty well, because outsiders tend to have hit dice similar to their CR unlike undead. Useful, especially with all the other support Turning has received.

Bonus senses are useful.

Greater Devotion is alright; DR might be better than AC but choices are nice.

Bonus Feats provide some customization and are fitting. I think there is a limit on how many Domain feats you are allowed, consider explicitly allowing this ability to break the rules.

Manifest Faith is handy, and I like how it automatically scales.

Omnipresence has interesting synergy with all sorts of stuff. Of course, there are touch spells, but what if you grapple your friend? Normally you move in to their space, so is this an inefficient but funny teleport?

Consecrated Self lets you annoy around undead and improves your turning. Fitting, not too strong.

Good Intentions seems like more of a Greyguard thing and I don't think it fits the class.

Omnipotence: the Protective Aura is the nicest part of being an [Angel]. You might explicitly spell out what this means, though the hyperlink is good enough.

This class has useful, thematic, and interesting abilities but I am not sure who would take it. Paladins/fighters/rangers would want more BAB, clerics want spells, bards want class features... kick it up to 3/4 BAB. And maybe provide partial progression of a previous class, though that is hard to write.

[hierophant]

Thanks!

Bumped BAB up to 3/4. Not sure what to do about Good Intentions. You're right that it doesn't quite fit the rest of the class... I'll leave it up until I think of something better.

Heh, grappling is one use I hadn't thought of for Omnipresence. Still, it's not exactly overpowered, and I did intend for fun things like that, though I mainly threw it in to help healing/buffing and aura - support stuff. Aid another works too, though I've never seen anyone actually do that.

Welp, when I have more time I'll see what else I can do.

[hierophant]

Bump for great justice!

Made a few changes to the exempted, namely:
Swapped Good Intentions for Good Standing,
Added a boost for those already proficient with their deity's favoured weapon,
And added a caster level increase option for Greater Devotion.

Also, brief PEACH for the Arcane Paladin:

Good concept (hah! I made a "funny".)
Requirements are easy for wizards, and bards, more difficult for sorcerors who get more synergy, so that's okay.
Decent chassis, low skills per level, but spellcasters normally have to deal with that anyway.
I like the increasing grades of duty as you level up. Also easier for a player to get used to that way instead of getting lumped with a giant list all at once.
Features are decent, but could use a bit more detail.
When spells are gained, is at the default cleric level? Can you convert spells into Cure X without knowing the spell beforehand?
You can convert spells into cures, but are the cure spells considered on your class list for learning or magic item use?
Small things like that.
I'd also consider dropping a level or two of casting, most likely at 9th level and somewhere between 3rd and 5th level.
Overall I'm a fan, but there's not as much character as some of the other entries (in my very subjective opinion - that's really a personal preference thing)
Anyway, great class for sorcerors, decent for wizards, interesting for bards.
It's a shame warlocks qualify but can't use half the features.
In all likelihood, it's overly powerful. Still, it's well executed and very concise.

So, uhhh, that's my 2c I guess.

[Vaynor]

I've just posted my submission, the Malefic Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14460044&postcount=9). Any thoughts/criticism would be greatly appreciated!

Edit: Woops forgot to put the spell list in. Adding that now! Spell list added and spells known section clarified.

[Grelna the Blue]

White Flame Wielder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14374773&postcount=5) crunch done. Fluff still in progress, but close to done.

[hierophant]

Malefic Sentinel is... wow, that's niche. But let's take a good look at it.

Might be worth giving it 4 skill points per level. Nice to see good fort and will though.
Proficiencies are redundant, I think. Paladins and hexblades have martial proficiency, and paladins have heavy armour (and heavy shields). And divine casters don't need a clause saying what armour they can cast in.
Charisma based casting makes paladins happy. Nice spell list too, though cloudkill jumps out at me as being an odd choice.
Class features range from typical paladin fare to duskblade-esque goodness to good-hexblade plus, so that's all good.
I assume the non-good and evil penalties against Touch of Arcana don't stack, but it might be worth making that explicit.
Not wild about dazing opponents at level 14, seems a bit lackluster. Maybe stun on a failed save, daze on a successful save.
Luck of the Gods is wow, good stuff. But at ECL 20, I think the exhaustion afterwards is a bit harsh. I'd give the exhaustion a limited duration, allow a save against it or just throw it away altogether.
Overall, it's a great class. I just would hate to play the five levels before you've qualified to become one.

[Vaynor]

Malefic Sentinel is... wow, that's niche. But let's take a good look at it.

It's a prestige class, that's the point! :smallbiggrin:


Might be worth giving it 4 skill points per level. Nice to see good fort and will though.

Yeah, I just stuck them with 2 since both paladin and hexblade get 2. Plus, they don't really need their skills for much anyways. I'll consider it.


Proficiencies are redundant, I think. Paladins and hexblades have martial proficiency, and paladins have heavy armour (and heavy shields). And divine casters don't need a clause saying what armour they can cast in.

Fair point, I wrote that from the perspective of a hexblade and kind of forgot paladins get that stuff. Woops! I did want to limit them to medium armor at the beginning, since although they cast all of their spells as divine spells they're still half-arcane casters, but the class became a lot more of a "tank" class as time went on, so I think I'll remove that too.


Charisma based casting makes paladins happy. Nice spell list too, though cloudkill jumps out at me as being an odd choice.

Yup, and no more Wisdom requirement for the spells, too! If you look at the hexblade spell list, they get basically every "cloud" spell on the wizard list, so I decided to add this in to give them a bit more on the offensive side with their spells, along with a few cloud spells from the SpC.



Class features range from typical paladin fare to duskblade-esque goodness to good-hexblade plus, so that's all good.
I assume the non-good and evil penalties against Touch of Arcana don't stack, but it might be worth making that explicit.

Indeed they don't stack, I'll specify.


Not wild about dazing opponents at level 14, seems a bit lackluster. Maybe stun on a failed save, daze on a successful save.

Well they can use it fairly often, so I thought with the penalty to saves and checks, combined with a penalty to AC (and losing your Dex to AC), dropping your weapon, and taking no actions might be a little overpowered. Do you think I should bump it to -8 at 14th and keep the daze, or stay at -6 and make it a stun?

Edit: Well, this is level 19 they get it at...hmm...


Luck of the Gods is wow, good stuff. But at ECL 20, I think the exhaustion afterwards is a bit harsh. I'd give the exhaustion a limited duration, allow a save against it or just throw it away altogether.

I'll say exhausted for one round.


Overall, it's a great class. I just would hate to play the five levels before you've qualified to become one.

Well, they're all about harsh beginnings, and being level 5 with only 2 full class levels is quite the harsh beginning!

Thanks for the comments, I've made some changes accordingly. :smallsmile:

[Grelna the Blue]

Okay, I think I'm finished the Exempted. Might add a minor tweak or two. Tempted to up the BAB to 3/4, and might revise the skill list. But I'm happy with what I have up so far.

Any and all constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.



White Flame Wielder:

Heh. Okay, I'm not overly familiar with Pathfinder, but here goes.
I'm intrigued by the alignment requirement for higher levels. Simple, but I've never seen it before. Nifty.
Straightforward caster PrC that grants positive energy benefits. I'm a little confused by the arcane/divine differences, but I assume that would make sense if I knew PF properly.
Fairly narrow focus, but well executed. I probably wouldn't play one myself, but it's nice support for an "anti-necromancer" archetype that isn't just a cleric.

[snip]

Thanks. I appreciate the input on the White Flame Wielder and have edited it in an attempt to make it clearer what is going on with the divine and arcane members of the class. There is a considerably more text devoted to the arcane side, but that is primarily because the divine side is so straightforward.

I looked at your Exempted, and liked it overall. We don't see enough of the short PrCs, the flavor was good, and I didn't see any powers that were ridiculous in concept. I did have a few observations and questions.

First, regarding proficiencies, I think you might consider breaking up that first paragraph like so:


Proficiencies: An exempted gains proficiency with their deity's favoured weapon, if [S]applicable it is not already possessed.

If they are already proficient, In addition, they gain Weapon Focus with that weapon as a bonus feat which may not be retrained or traded out in any way.

If they already have Weapon Focus with that weapon, or would later gain it from another source, they may instead add their class level as a sacred bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.


Probably most of the people taking this class will be clerics, fighters, or paladins, who will all probably have proficiency in their deity's favored weapon anyway. It seems as if giving the proficiency for free could clean it up a bit, as the difference between a character getting proficiency in a weapon and getting +5 to damage on top of existing proficiency is rather extreme.

Regardless, this may be something you wish to put into the Special Column with a name, rather than just treating it as a proficiency adjustment.

Second, regarding the Reject Evil ability, ...
Reject Evil: (Su) "Where light is, darkness may not enter in."
Exempted learn to channel their faith with such confidence that creatures anathema to goodness cannot bear their presence.

They may turn or destroy creatures with the Evil subtype (normally Outsiders) as a good cleric turns undead. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + the exempted's charisma modifier with an effective cleric level of the exempted's character level.

Reject Evil may be used in place of Turn Undead to qualify for or activate feats, prestige classes or other abilities.

...upon reading it my first thought was that this would make Exempted the favored 1-level dip of a million gamers. And that could be true even if the GM was one of those who disallowed DMM. That's not really a serious objection, though. However, the ability to make the character level the effective cleric level seems liable to serious abuse. There are other PrCs that grant turning/rebuking levels that stack with preexisting levels granting the same ability or that stack with nothing, but I cannot call to mind any that stack with every other level in any other class.

Third, regarding the Manifest Faith ability, that's pretty darn sweet. I like the power, but wonder if it might be too sweet for a cost of only two uses of an ability that can conceivably be used many times a day at higher levels with stat enhancers. Given that Manifest Faith can duplicate up to a 9th level Summon Monster, allowing that many uses per day seems questionable.

Finally, one thing I didn't see that I was looking for was anything regarding what would happen if an Exempted fell from grace. Is that something you have considered?

[hierophant]

Thanks. I appreciate the input on the White Flame Wielder and have edited it in an attempt to make it clearer what is going on with the divine and arcane members of the class. There is a considerably more text devoted to the arcane side, but that is primarily because the divine side is so straightforward.
You're welcome! The White Flame Wielder does seem to read easier now. I like the completed fluff too.


I looked at your Exempted, and liked it overall. We don't see enough of the short PrCs, the flavor was good, and I didn't see any powers that were ridiculous in concept. I did have a few observations and questions.

First, regarding proficiencies...<snipped for length>...Regardless, this may be something you wish to put into the Special Column with a name, rather than just treating it as a proficiency adjustment.
Yeah, I've revised that part again, thanks for the input. I decided the bonus damage was redundant with Greater Devotion there, and also realised that exempted couldn't overcome DR/good easily, hence the new Champion of Light ability. A little harsh on atheist/agnostic exempted, perhaps, but them's the breaks.


Second, regarding the Reject Evil ability, upon reading it my first thought was that this would make Exempted the favored 1-level dip of a million gamers. And that could be true even if the GM was one of those who disallowed DMM. That's not really a serious objection, though. However, the ability to make the character level the effective cleric level seems liable to serious abuse. There are other PrCs that grant turning/rebuking levels that stack with preexisting levels granting the same ability or that stack with nothing, but I cannot call to mind any that stack with every other level in any other class.
Honestly, I've considered making it scale in different ways, but that seemed unnecessarily complicated, and the abuse isn't anything you can't get with a one level dip in cleric anyway, or Sacred Exorcist which is easier (but later) to qualify for.


Third, regarding the Manifest Faith ability, that's pretty darn sweet. I like the power, but wonder if it might be too sweet for a cost of only two uses of an ability that can conceivably be used many times a day at higher levels with stat enhancers. Given that Manifest Faith can duplicate up to a 9th level Summon Monster, allowing that many uses per day seems questionable.
Changed to need Reject Evil uses equal to spell level.


Finally, one thing I didn't see that I was looking for was anything regarding what would happen if an Exempted fell from grace. Is that something you have considered?
If they become non-good, they no longer qualify for the class and can't use its features? I didn't really see the need to make that explicit.
Alternatively, learning to channel "good" energy is something you can do if you've learnt how, even if now angels will hunt you down for abusing their gifts. I figure it's a DM call.

Thanks for your feedback! I was happy enough with my first product, but it feels good to go back and polish off some rough edges.

[ErrantX]

Just over 24 hours until contest close people. Just a heads up!

-X

[enderlord99]

I have an idea for the next contest:

Multiple-agents. Maybe spies for one agency, against another, who's true loyalties lie with a third... or maybe a loyal member of multiple organisations, which everyone else sees as mutually exclusive- and because of that, they have to keep secret the fact that they are manipulating those groups toward an alliance... or maybe something else. You decide!

How's this sound?

[sirpercival]

How's this sound?

Sounds like I would just repost the Shadow Star Infiltrator :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

I think we should start the new year with a theme of newness of some variety.

[hierophant]

I think we should start the new year with a theme of newness of some variety.

I like the sound of that! Rejuvenation, revolution, rebirth, resolution - that sort of thing?

[Lord_Gareth]

I like the sound of that! Rejuvenation, revolution, rebirth, resolution - that sort of thing?

Yeah! All that stuff ^_^

[Hyooz]

I'll be getting a last-minute entry up. Holidays, huh?

[sirpercival]

OK, finally finished the fluff on the Shadow Star Infiltrator. Whew, just under the wire!

[hierophant]

Drive-by PEACH for the Vibrant Ones!

Simple pre-reqs, (a non-initiator can just squeeze in at level 11! Nice.)
Good chassis, a bit of something for everyone.

I'm not seeing where it says which maneuvers you can pick, discipline wise?

I would give Light Within a duration (until the end of your next round, maybe.)

Akashic Renewal is great.

Path of Radiance-
Alight the Darkness - is good damage a thing? A bonus to damage and making it good aligned? Or untyped divine damage a la flame strike?
Speed of Light - nice.
Guiding Light - very nice. Maybe too nice? Probably the perfect amount of nice.
Beacon of Hope - again, I don't think inspiration bonuses are a thing. Morale, insight, sacred, untyped?
Flash of Power - wow. It's a high level ability, so not overpowered. Does the exhaustion last just for the next round, or until rested?

Glimmer - mobility is always good to see on a combatant. I like the free action return, that's a great touch.

Searing Strikes, thank goodness for you. The negative level probably needs a duration or saving throw.

Shimmerdance fight time!
If, during a turn in which he used Glimmer, the Vibrant One does damage to an enemy, he can, as a free action, begin a Shimmerdance.
Okay, that's an awkward sentence, but it makes sense at least. Basically, Con mod regular melee attacks every round when you glimmer? I assume it's alright to use them all on the same opponent?

Upon the Rays, yes, flight is always appreciated.

Prismatic Release - Saving Throw DC is...? Will and Fort partial saves need to be explained, I think.

Great class! Needs a few more details, but I hope that helps some! (probably a bit close to the deadline, but it seemed rude not to PEACH yours as well).

[Hyooz]

I appreciate the PEACH! I wasn't expecting getting a lot of feedback for this one, given how late I got it posted, but hey, pleasently surprised! I'll probably post this one in its own topic once voting is done, in a form that keeps your critiques in mind.

[ErrantX]

Voting will be up today, I've been sick with a sinus/chest bug and ear infection the past couple days and mostly have wanted to crawl into a hole and die. I feel moderately human today so it will be done!

-X

[Hyooz]

Oh January, you do haunt us all with your ailments that make oozes of us all.

[Morph Bark]

Oh January, you do haunt us all with your ailments that make oozes of us all.

At least it'll be easier to reproduce!

/shot

...

/splits into two

[Hyooz]

Man, ooze apocalypse has always been way scarier than a zombie apocalypse.

One ooze gloops carelessly into a trap-laden dungeon and emerges as 500 oozes.

[Morph Bark]

Sentient oozes are even worse. I once had an NPC character who was prettymuch a conglomerate of Fine oozes who all had class levels. PCs never found that out though...


EDIT: Also, does anyone often create entries for the PrC Contest that build upon existing Homebrew base classes? If so, maybe you're interested in my offer here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14504864#post14504864) for a service, if you give a hand!

[ErrantX]

Alright, finally feel human enough to start the working posts!

Here is the voting thread! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267416)

-X

[ErrantX]

New contest is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268025)

Questions, etc, post em here. Let's get to work!

-X

[Fortuna]

What the hey. Haven't taken part in one of these in months, maybe years - might as well give it another go. Chaos, eh? Let's see...

[ErrantX]

What the hey. Haven't taken part in one of these in months, maybe years - might as well give it another go. Chaos, eh? Let's see...

Glad to see you back! Got any ideas you wanna pitch? Anyone else either, if they want to jump in. I'm all ears!

-X

[Fortuna]

I'm considering a class partly inspired by the Joker. The entry requirement would be CN or CE, but one of the earliest class features would be 'You can become whatever alignment you please for all intents and purposes at the drop of a hat'. The class quote would be something about people having boxes.

[Morph Bark]

Hmmm... I did want to make a PrC based off an old RP character of mine, doing something with shapeshifting, the elements, and ultimately pushing ones mind to the edge of reality... it could conceivably work with this.

[sirpercival]

At the moment I'm cogitating on a Wild Mage/Anarchic Initiate-style prc for the Crusader... but it's very nebulous right now and might change at a moment's notice. Possibly into a PrC for Ethos of the Wyrm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266415).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Ooh, chaos, my favorite! I'm thinking a sort of monk/shapeshifter hybrid who uses fluid fighting styles based on ToB maneuvers and who can take "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" to its literal conclusion. :smallamused: Hopefully I'll actually have time to make a class this time around, since I was too busy to make the deadline on the last one.

[inuyasha]

heheh im in, I love chaos :smallbiggrin: MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Im doing an Abyssal Apprentice. Someone who stared into the abyss, and the abyss stared back. This will have a dual progression type of thing, one is the shadowstalkers, the other the scourges. The first is exactly what it sounds like, sneaky, influencial, and corrupting. And the scourges are bloodthirsty killers who go berzerk in combat, murdering anybody in their way

[Sgt. Cookie]

Inuyasha, I'm guessing that the Abyssal Apprentice, Seducers, at least, will have a clause stating that they count as an evil outsiders, for Blackguard prerequisites, right?


As for this contest, I'm leaning in a very Monk-ish direction...

[Kazyan]

Hmmmm. I have an idea, but don't quite know what to staple it to yet. I'll have to tear through the Monster Manuals when I have time.

[inuyasha]

Inuyasha, I'm guessing that the Abyssal Apprentice, Seducers, at least, will have a clause stating that they count as an evil outsiders, for Blackguard prerequisites, right?


As for this contest, I'm leaning in a very Monk-ish direction...

at 10th level both Scourges and Shadowstalkers (I changed that from seducer) type will change to outsider [evil] but Shadowstalkers are just more likely to corrupt someone into being a blackguard, where a scourge would just choose to butcher them
I won't say much more :) you just gotta see

EDIT: woohoo I think Im finished :smallbiggrin:

[Tarsten Corvus]

Updated the Wandering Thief and reedited thanks to a very good friend.
Please Peach and Have fun with things :smallamused:
Also it is Pathfinder system since it is the one i know forgot to mention earlier Derp moment

[ErrantX]

I'm considering a class partly inspired by the Joker. The entry requirement would be CN or CE, but one of the earliest class features would be 'You can become whatever alignment you please for all intents and purposes at the drop of a hat'. The class quote would be something about people having boxes.

I like it, I love Joker, so yeah, I'm interested to see something inspired off of him.


Hmmm... I did want to make a PrC based off an old RP character of mine, doing something with shapeshifting, the elements, and ultimately pushing ones mind to the edge of reality... it could conceivably work with this.

That sounds pretty awesome, sounds psionic potentially as well.


At the moment I'm cogitating on a Wild Mage/Anarchic Initiate-style prc for the Crusader... but it's very nebulous right now and might change at a moment's notice. Possibly into a PrC for Ethos of the Wyrm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266415).

This intrigues me, and I'll check out Ethos of the Wyrm.


Ooh, chaos, my favorite! I'm thinking a sort of monk/shapeshifter hybrid who uses fluid fighting styles based on ToB maneuvers and who can take "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" to its literal conclusion. :smallamused: Hopefully I'll actually have time to make a class this time around, since I was too busy to make the deadline on the last one.

Very cool, I like shapeshifting martial arts, reminds me of Kalindo from Werewolf: The Apocalypse.


heheh im in, I love chaos :smallbiggrin: MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Im doing an Abyssal Apprentice. Someone who stared into the abyss, and the abyss stared back. This will have a dual progression type of thing, one is the shadowstalkers, the other the scourges. The first is exactly what it sounds like, sneaky, influencial, and corrupting. And the scourges are bloodthirsty killers who go berzerk in combat, murdering anybody in their way

Just remember: Chaos is key, tone back the Evil from being center stage, Chaos is the star of this show.


Updated the Wandering Thief and reedited thanks to a very good friend.
Please Peach and Have fun with things :smallamused:

Looks good!


-X

[Kazyan]

Ahaha, found it. Glaistig, MMIII. I'll get on this now.

[Morph Bark]

That sounds pretty awesome, sounds psionic potentially as well.

Not sure about psionics, but I might use spellshaping instead of normal spellcasting.

[sirpercival]

Not sure about psionics, but I might use spellshaping instead of normal spellcasting. Hey, I just wrote a spellshaping class for Heroes of Hyrule! *sings It's a Small World*

[Glimbur]

I'm making a thing. It is... a thing.

[ErrantX]

I'm making a thing. It is... a thing.

I support things. I'm in fact a great fan of things. I collect them and often find myself using them. Things are great. :smallbiggrin:

-X

[enderlord99]

I think Afroakuma should take part in this contest!:smallbiggrin:
Pleeeeaasse, Afro? PLEASE!?

[Techwarrior]

I'm making a thing. It is... a thing.


I support things. I'm in fact a great fan of things. I collect them and often find myself using them. Things are great. :smallbiggrin:

-X

I prefer my things spread on toast with a hint of marmalade, but maybe that's just me. I share them with my guests, doesn't do to have them sitting around cluttering up the house.

Also, Shadowsaint of the Bladesworn is finished mechanics-wise. I'll get the fluff up when I'm back at my house.

[Felyndiira]

I'm really looking forward to the evil contest. I have a really neat idea for that one that I'm just burning to write up.

For chaos, though, I'm thinking of a class derived from full caster classes, that sacrifices about 7 levels of spellcasting for class features based upon chaos theory. The class abilities would be based on the idea of "move one stone, and have effects that ripple into something much greater and unexpected," with higher levels offering more powerful effects and greater control over these intrusions into chaos theory.

I'm just a bit concerned, though - the prestige class requires a ton of trust between the GMs and the players, and it would be relatively easy for a sadistic GM to make the class features completely ineffective. Since I've never seen a class tie-in so closely to roleplaying before, I wanted to get a few opinions on everyone thinks about this weakness before I continue any further. Is it usually considered poor to have a significant part of the class tied to roleplaying and to put a lot of focus on GM-player trust?

[ArcturusV]

Me? I'd be fine with it as a player. As a DM I'd be a little leery. But only because I know of the tendency for players to get a bit out of control and how they can spin even a simple Cause -> Effect flow into something far, far wilder than you ever expected. I still have a vague memory somehow of a scene where my players had papers to get into a City, the City had no reason not to let them in as they were there on official business, and there was a plan being created about how they couldn't just WALK in but had to concoct a scheme which involved, in part, capturing and cloning a flock of eagles, finding 1,000 feet of rope, 15 cows, and figuring out how to fashion a crude ballista/catapult.

[ErrantX]

I'm really looking forward to the evil contest. I have a really neat idea for that one that I'm just burning to write up.

For chaos, though, I'm thinking of a class derived from full caster classes, that sacrifices about 7 levels of spellcasting for class features based upon chaos theory. The class abilities would be based on the idea of "move one stone, and have effects that ripple into something much greater and unexpected," with higher levels offering more powerful effects and greater control over these intrusions into chaos theory.

I'm just a bit concerned, though - the prestige class requires a ton of trust between the GMs and the players, and it would be relatively easy for a sadistic GM to make the class features completely ineffective. Since I've never seen a class tie-in so closely to roleplaying before, I wanted to get a few opinions on everyone thinks about this weakness before I continue any further. Is it usually considered poor to have a significant part of the class tied to roleplaying and to put a lot of focus on GM-player trust?


Me? I'd be fine with it as a player. As a DM I'd be a little leery. But only because I know of the tendency for players to get a bit out of control and how they can spin even a simple Cause -> Effect flow into something far, far wilder than you ever expected. I still have a vague memory somehow of a scene where my players had papers to get into a City, the City had no reason not to let them in as they were there on official business, and there was a plan being created about how they couldn't just WALK in but had to concoct a scheme which involved, in part, capturing and cloning a flock of eagles, finding 1,000 feet of rope, 15 cows, and figuring out how to fashion a crude ballista/catapult.

Sounds like Mage: the Ascension to me :smalltongue:

If too much of its free-form, then it becomes a very hard class to run a game with. D&D is not a game of formless rules, in fact quite the opposite, it is a very rigid game of structure and organization, so having a class who's powers are built on the player's ability to BS like nobody's bidniss doesn't strike me as a wise plan. It sounds awesome in the right group, but I think for the purposes of a D&D in general, you'll run into more problems then the class solves. This is not me saying "Don't Do It", this is me saying "Be Careful With This."

-X

[Felyndiira]

White Wolf RPGs are definitely one of the primary inspirations :smalltongue:.

I definitely wasn't thinking of giving the player full control over the game world. My idea is that the player suggests something (like "hamper this plan that the BBEG is doing" or "allow me to meet someone with a lot of connections in this kingdom"), with levels in the prestige class determining how powerful of a suggestion he can make. The DM would then either refuse if it's too specific or too direct, or suggest an event that the player must take in and the actual result that it will have (like "if you slay the rabbit to your left and put it on the road, the baron's cart will trip over it early morning tomorrow, allowing your party to present yourself as his helpers and become friends with him.")

The class will have mechanics for penalties for more extravagant requests as well. I was thinking that there will be points that the player must distribute amongst a set of "bad things" depending on how powerful the request is, and the DM will have some points that he distributes as well. Thus, a very powerful request (like "hamper the BBEG's take-over-the-world plan") might require the player+party to do three different quests of difficulty to help push along the event, take longer before the event happens, and/or have side effects of certain severity that even the player could not foresee. A simpler request might literally require only a stone to be moved and take only a day to come into fruition. The player will have some limited resources to try to mitigate these, as well.

The class, thus, could easily be reigned-in by the DM (he could tell the player, for instance, "you see no paths before you that allow you to instantly go up 20 levels without work" or "you see no paths that ends in the outright assassination of the BBEG"). My main concern with the class is that it's giving the DM a lot of fiat power on a class mechanic, which I do not know if it's really a good idea.

[Kazyan]

A stab at the Aegiothir's mechanics is up. I still have to figure out where to put the Necklace of Adaption-like effect and the plane shifting.

[Mephibosheth]

The crunch and a fair amount of fluff for the shattered soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14570401&postcount=8) is up!

I would very much appreciate any input people have, as I've never tried to homebrew something quite like this before. I'm particularly interested in what people think would be a reasonable requirement. I want it to be available to really any character and am pretty happy with the fluff requirement, but if anyone has suggestions I would very much appreciate them.

Mephibosheth

[Tarsten Corvus]

A Requirement could be :Must originally Lawful. Neutrals tend to bend more and if your just good you can go Chaotic.
Also the Skill Ranks seem a bit high for a 6th level. Doesn't it say that you can't go past your level with Skill Ranks for balancing issues??
And my last piece of Info/advice/idea. Is Soul Specialty:When you gain a Shard that is a different class then your original one. you may gain 1 Weapon and 1 Armor Proficiency for that class.
(example Fighter: may choose one of the weapons and 1 armor to be proficient when that Shard is dominant.)
Just some ideas/ questions Love the class tho :)

[Mephibosheth]

Thanks so much for the comments!


A Requirement could be :Must originally Lawful. Neutrals tend to bend more and if your just good you can go Chaotic.

I thought about something like that, but I still want it to be available to just about everyone. The main thing I'm looking for is a way to prevent people from entering before 6th level that pretty much anyone can meet without just saying "character level 5." I guess the way I have it now isn't horrible; I was just curious if anyone on the boards had a better idea.


Also the Skill Ranks seem a bit high for a 6th level. Doesn't it say that you can't go past your level with Skill Ranks for balancing issues??

For a skill that is a class skill, you can have a number of ranks up to your class level + 3. Basically, 4 points a 1st level and one point at every subsequent level. That's why you see a lot of PrCs with 8 ranks in a certain skill as a requirement. You have to be at least 5th level to meet that requirement.


And my last piece of Info/advice/idea. Is Soul Specialty:When you gain a Shard that is a different class then your original one. you may gain 1 Weapon and 1 Armor Proficiency for that class.
(example Fighter: may choose one of the weapons and 1 armor to be proficient when that Shard is dominant.)

Unless I'm misunderstanding your suggestion, that already happens, though I didn't say so explicitly. Each soul splinter is essentially a completely different character built in almost all ways from the ground up. So if you have a soul splinter that is a fighter, you get fighter bonus feats, skills, BAB, saves, and weapon and armor proficiency. But I should say so explicitly. Thanks for pointing that out and for all the comments!

[Techwarrior]

Whoa whoa whoa people... I know that In a Waking Dream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13157506) didn't have such a huge turnout, but how am I the only one who seems to have noticed that it missed the contest archive, and was in fact, completely missed with numbering

And... the current one seems to have last contests dates attached to it.
[/nitpicking]

Since my PrC is mostly done, aside from copy/pasting the fluff off of my other computer, I'll take a shot at PEACHing the other contestant's entries. :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

Whoa whoa whoa people... I know that In a Waking Dream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13157506) didn't have such a huge turnout, but how am I the only one who seems to have noticed that it missed the contest archive, and was in fact, completely missed with numbering

Both it and Pet Me! even are numbered XXXIII. It was probably an oversight on ErrantX's part, as he was unable to host it at the time.

[Mephibosheth]

With the twin goals of bringing the contest back onto the front page and perhaps soliciting a comment or PEACH or two, I hereby announce that the Shattered Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14570401&postcount=8) is (with the exception of gear and skills for 1/3 of the sample encounter) completely done! I reserve the right to fix typos and re-word things, but unless anyone spots a major problem (always a definite possibility), it will stay more-or-less as is.

[ErrantX]

Both it and Pet Me! even are numbered XXXIII. It was probably an oversight on ErrantX's part, as he was unable to host it at the time.

Going back and renumerating contests would be... difficult, but I will add it into the roster tonight. Mea culpa.


With the twin goals of bringing the contest back onto the front page and perhaps soliciting a comment or PEACH or two, I hereby announce that the Shattered Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14570401&postcount=8) is (with the exception of gear and skills for 1/3 of the sample encounter) completely done! I reserve the right to fix typos and re-word things, but unless anyone spots a major problem (always a definite possibility), it will stay more-or-less as is.

I will look over this tonight, not every day does an old buddy from the Avatar D20 project resurface! :smallbiggrin:

-X

[Mephibosheth]

I will look over this tonight, not every day does an old buddy from the Avatar D20 project resurface! :smallbiggrin:

I'm still around, though I lurk more than I used to and life has gotten a lot busier. It is weird how few of the Avatar d20 contributors are still around, though. I still post the odd bit of homebrew every once in a while. I've actually started going back over the Avatar d20 stuff and cleaning it up, making it simpler and easier, and attempting to integrate the two versions into one. But it's going really slowly since I keep getting distracted by life and other homebrewing projects. I love these contests. I always tell myself I'm going to enter them more often, since they always inspire such great homebrew from everyone.

[sirpercival]

I'm still around, though I lurk more than I used to and life has gotten a lot busier. It is weird how few of the Avatar d20 contributors are still around, though. I still post the odd bit of homebrew every once in a while. I've actually started going back over the Avatar d20 stuff and cleaning it up, making it simpler and easier, and attempting to integrate the two versions into one. But it's going really slowly since I keep getting distracted by life and other homebrewing projects. I love these contests. I always tell myself I'm going to enter them more often, since they always inspire such great homebrew from everyone.

There's an entire subboard of Avatar d20 on minmaxboards...

[Morph Bark]

There's an entire subboard of Avatar d20 on minmaxboards...

Not that it matters much right now, though.

[sirpercival]

Not that it matters much right now, though.

MMX will hopefully be coming back soon, is the word. It's been cleaned and resubmitted to the hosting company.

[Mephibosheth]

There's an entire subboard of Avatar d20 on minmaxboards...

Interesting. I'm not finding anything just skimming through the wayback machine or with a few quick google searches, but I'll have to check it out if/when the boards go back up. I seem to remember there was a split-off of the Giantitp Avatar d20 project that went over to brilliantgameologists. I wonder if it's the same one?

[Glimbur]

It should now be clearer what I meant by 'a thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14588327&postcount=9)'.

I desperately need a PEACH or twelve for this monster, but I don't blame you if the idea of randomly determined class features is too much for you to bother with. I'll start PEACHing... tomorrow, maybe.

[Tarsten Corvus]

Could I Get a Peach of The Wandering Thief before the contest is over please?

[Mephibosheth]

Could I Get a Peach of The Wandering Thief before the contest is over please?

Sure, no problem. I just realized I owe you for looking at the shattered soul.

In general, I don't see anything objectionable balance-wise about the wandering thief. In fact, while I don't have a particularly in-depth familiarity with Pathfinder (which I assume you're using as the base for the PrC), it seems somewhat underpowered to me. Most of the abilities are just bonuses to various skills which, while undeniably useful to a rogue or other skill-based character, probably aren't going to break the game. I wouldn't object to a more rapid sneak attack progression, for example. That's my general impression.

Another broad comment I would make is that a bit of editing wouldn't go amiss. There are some sentences that are unclear or fragmented. Nothing egregious, but definitely worth a second glance. In particular, I don't know what you mean by "When making a Knowledge check on all Histories when making Gather Information Check" in the Favored Terrain description.

Now on to the line-by-line. Just a few specific suggestions.


An Eye for Something Shiny (Ex): Always looking around for Shiny's he might procure for later. The Wandering thief get's a +2 to perception every 4 levels from At first level. Up to a +6 to perception at level 10. This is also to find quick escape routes to leave places and situations quickly, allowing him to scan for secret doors or potential exits as a swift action.
First, there's a bit of a disagreement between your table and your text. You say in the description that the perception bonus increase by +2 at 1st level and by an additional +2 every four subsequent levels, but the table has it going up at 5th level (a gap of four levels) and 10th level (a gap of five levels). Either way would be fine, just make sure they agree.

Also, I don't know if Pathfinder has this, but plain old 3.5 has a feat called Quick Reconnoiter (http://realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Quick_Reconnoiter) that is similar to the "scan for secret doors or potential exits as a swift action" part of your ability. Might be something to consider as a less-specialized alternative.


Calling Card: Being confidant in his ability to steal things the wandering thief will leave a calling card after he steals the object he desires. The use of this calling card helps establish a reputation for himself, and many wandering thieves create grand titles for themselves to be called. The wandering thief gains a +2 bonus Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks due to his extreme skill, and each level of wandering thief he possesses grants a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks when dealing with the criminal subculture of the city as well as a -2 penalty to Diplomacy checks when dealing with those he would steal from.
My only suggestion for this would be to specify with whom exactly he suffers a Diplomacy penalty. What do you mean by "those he would steal from?" The nobility? Rich merchants? Anyone who isn't a criminal? What if he specializes in stealing from other criminals? Or is this calling-card based? Like he suffers the penalty when interacting with the type of people from whom he has a reputation for stealing? What if he's in disguise?

That's all that strikes me after reading it few a few times. Bear in mind that I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder (though I had the SRD open while I was writing this), so my comments might not jive with differences between Pathfinder and 3.5. All in all, a decent class. Just needs a little polishing!

Mephibosheth

[enderlord99]

Mephibosheth:

1. Can I call you "Meph" from now on?

2. How does the Shattered Soul interact with multiclassing and/or other prestige classes?

[Tarsten Corvus]

Well Mephibosheth thanks very much :)) i appreciate it.


My only suggestion for this would be to specify with whom exactly he suffers a Diplomacy penalty. What do you mean by "those he would steal from?" The nobility? Rich merchants? Anyone who isn't a criminal? What if he specializes in stealing from other criminals? Or is this calling-card based? Like he suffers the penalty when interacting with the type of people from whom he has a reputation for stealing? What if he's in disguise?

This is his Target so to speak. If he picks a target ( Nobility, Lord, Poor) whatever that is who he has the increased difficulty with. It is not set to a specific class more of the Specific person sort of thing.

[Mephibosheth]

1. Can I call you "Meph" from now on?
Of course. Everyone does!


2. How does the Shattered Soul interact with multiclassing and/or other prestige classes?
I knew I was forgetting something. Thank you for reminding me that I needed to address this. My intention was that a shattered soul wouldn't be able to multiclass once she had started on the PrC. That's why it's 15 levels long. I completely forgot to add something to that effect, but I'll do so now.

Thanks again!

[enderlord99]

Of course. Everyone does!


I knew I was forgetting something. Thank you for reminding me that I needed to address this. My intention was that a shattered soul wouldn't be able to multiclass once she had started on the PrC. That's why it's 15 levels long. I completely forgot to add something to that effect, but I'll do so now.

Thanks again!

What if they're already multiclassed (starting as Fighter3 / Rogue3, for example)? Would their "original" personality progress as a Fighter or a Rogue? What do they do when they reach Epic level (or 22nd, in the case of this example)?

[Mephibosheth]

What if they're already multiclassed (starting as Fighter3 / Rogue3, for example)? Would their "original" personality progress as a Fighter or a Rogue? What do they do when they reach Epic level (or 22nd, in the case of this example)?

I think that in that case, the player could choose one of the classes to advance. I'm not sure about an epic progression; I've never played an epic game and don't really have a good idea of how they work. I'm tempted to say that they just continue to advance their soul shatters as the epic progressions for the different base classes, but I don't really know enough about epic levels to say for sure.

[enderlord99]

I think that in that case, the player could choose one of the classes to advance. I'm not sure about an epic progression; I've never played an epic game and don't really have a good idea of how they work. I'm tempted to say that they just continue to advance their soul shatters as the epic progressions for the different base classes, but I don't really know enough about epic levels to say for sure.

...Or maybe, Epic level lets you begin multiclassing again, but all 7 splinters have different builds, rather than different single classes.

Maybe?

[Mephibosheth]

So...something like:

Epic Shattered Souls: When you reach 16th level and beyond in the shattered soul prestige class, your soul splinters continue to advance in their individual base classes using the normal rules for epic characters. At level 16 and beyond, your soul splinters may also choose to multiclass or select prestige classes for which they meet the requirements, following the normal rules for epic-level multiclassing.

Would that be satisfactory?

[enderlord99]

So...something like:

Epic Shattered Souls: When you reach 16th level and beyond in the shattered soul prestige class, your soul splinters continue to advance in their individual base classes using the normal rules for epic characters. At level 16 and beyond, your soul splinters may also choose to multiclass or select prestige classes for which they meet the requirements, following the normal rules for epic-level multiclassing.

Would that be satisfactory?

It would be perfect!:smallbiggrin:

[Mephibosheth]

OK. Done and done. I added it to the "playing a shattered soul" section. Thanks a lot for your help!

[Glimbur]

PEACH for Abyssal Apprentice

Fluff is fine.

Entry requirements: Is this a pathfinder class? Because otherwise you might want to increase the skill requirements to 13 ranks, because that happens at level 10. Not a big deal. Also, the Scourge requires a good feat and an ok feat, while the Seducer requires two bad feats. I'll see if I can think of better suggestions.

Skills: this is a big boost for people who come in as fighter-types. Mechanically that's probably fine, but it also means that if you are a low-skill guy, suddenly when you devote yourself to the Abyss you become much better at tumbling, listening, knowing about the planes, moving silently, sleight of hand... Not really a balance problem but a flavor problem.

Hit die: this is similar to the skills problem: rogues typically don't get a d10. Again it isn't a big deal but it is unusual.

Full BAB and two good saves is pretty strong. This chassis is about as strong as Ranger, though with fewer class skills.

Scourges probably gain no proficiencies, while Shadowstalkers get medium armor. Also, Shadowstalkers were Seducers back in the prerequisites section.

Demonic Embrace must be the heart and soul of the class. I like that there are options at most levels.

Level 1: Claw attacks are not very helpful unless you build around them. Since you probably have a greatsword, Scourges will take Great Cleave. That means this is a lot like a fighter level. Shadowstalkers will take +2d6 sneak attack.

Level 3: stat bonuses are pretty powerful; generally classes do not give out untyped bonuses. Maybe make them Profane, which makes it a bit less powerful because it won't stack as well.

Level 5: Probably Supreme Cleave here, though a bite secondary attack is useful because your mouth isn't usually full. +2d6 sneak attack is the clear winner here.

Stat boosts are ok.

+5 to AC, hit, and damage is both too strong and too bland. +5 to disguise, hide, and move silently is kind of weak and too bland.

Demonic Perfection: Does the Apprentice get the [native] subtype? This is kind of a big deal for outsiders. Also, this ability happens at level 20. A Babau is CR 6, and it's not terribly helpful out of combat either. A succubus is CR 7, with more out of combat applications. In either case, they are too weak to be the capstone to a class that happens at level 20.

Fluff is alright, though again you have Seducers rather than Shadowstalkers.

Summary
You've got some ideas here, but half of the levels don't have features and some of the features are pretty bland. I would suggest focusing on either the warrior-type or the rogue-type and making them unique. The Abyss is about madness, so what about a sneak attack that damages your sanity (modeled with a Confusion like effect). The Abyss is ever-changing, so what about some swift action teleporting? What you have here is weak in comparison to other choices, so you have room to add interesting options. Maybe throw in, say, 1d6 sneak attack every 3 levels so there's a cost versus going rogue.

[sengmeng]

I'm working on an entry for the current contest, but unfortunately, I posted part of it in its own thread for PEACHing... part of my prestige class was that you get a template added to you, and I assumed the template existed, but then I realized I would have to make it myself. Would it be acceptable to move that thread here and post my entry, or do I have to drop this particular class feature? Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269175)

[ErrantX]

I'm working on an entry for the current contest, but unfortunately, I posted part of it in its own thread for PEACHing... part of my prestige class was that you get a template added to you, and I assumed the template existed, but then I realized I would have to make it myself. Would it be acceptable to move that thread here and post my entry, or do I have to drop this particular class feature? Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269175)

If you wanted to make a class around your template, I'd be fine with that.

-X

[sirpercival]

OK, I finally finished the mechanics for the Executor of Bedlam. I had major difficulty wording the final two abilities, and I'm worried that they're damn confusing. Do they make sense at all? How does the rest of it look?

I'll finish the fluff as soon as I can.

[sengmeng]

If you wanted to make a class around your template, I'd be fine with that.

-X


Much obliged.

[sengmeng]

Slaadborn rager is up. PEACHes welcome.

EDIT: I'm statting out my example NPC and I can't find guidance anywhere on how to assign ability scores. Is it elite array?

[Glimbur]

The example NPC is optional, and I doubt that anyone will count up their attributes to see what system you used. Elite array is easy, so I would suggest that.

[ErrantX]

The example NPC is optional, and I doubt that anyone will count up their attributes to see what system you used. Elite array is easy, so I would suggest that.

Agreed on both counts. Thank you Glimbur!

Also, glad to see another new entry WaylanderX, but don't forget to put the end of the entry fluff at the end for completeness or your class will be DQ'd for being incomplete.

-X

[Mephibosheth]

*Bump!*

Also, to justify the bump, a peach of the Abyssal Apprentice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14546184&postcount=5).

So, it looks like this is following in the footsteps of the Elemental Savant (I think is the name) or the Giant's Elemental Infiltrator PrCs. Basically, becoming gradually and increasingly fiend-like over the course of the PrC. I like the idea, though it would be interesting to know more about how Abyssal Apprentices typically enter into these relationships. More elaboration on that point would be great!

Mechanically, nothing looks particularly egregious. It might even be underpowered. It doesn't really progress any other class abilities, so whatever route you take to qualify for the PrC, you'll be giving up a lot. It seems like a better option for a melee character than anything else, especially since most conventional melee classes are fairly light on fantastic class features. It would be hard for a fighter to qualify though, given the skill requirements.

The only thing that looks like a question mark to me is the Demonic Perfection ability. It would be a good idea to spell out more explicitly what the relationship between the Abyssal Apprentice and their demonic minion is. How much control does the Apprentice exert? What happens if the minion doesn't do what the Apprentice says? How (if at all) does the Apprentice control the minion? Mental commands/telepathy? Shouted verbal commands? How independently does the minion operate.

All of the other classes look well within the bounds of reasonable to me. Maybe even, like I said, a little underpowered, considering what you might be giving up to take levels in the class. If you're looking for ideas, demons have a ton of diverse and useful abilities that you might consider granting. Some of these more unique abilities would really kick the class up a notch and make it more attractive.

[WaylanderX]

*Bumping too*

My Chaos Manifester is all done with nice amounts of fluff and a nice high level encounter to match. If anyone wants to PEACH the prc I'd be very happy and would repay the favor with moar PEACHes!! (I ate a PEACH and it was 'ke)

[Dark.Revenant]

Stylemaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14633379#post14633379)

I don't care about winning (I stopped caring about e-peen once I became a game dev; people who care too much about what other people think usually wash out); I just wanted to make this class. See my thought process at the bottom of the linked post.

I'll finish the fluff later in the day.

[Lord_Gareth]

Stylemaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14633379#post14633379)

I don't care about winning (I stopped caring about e-peen once I became a game dev; people who care too much about what other people think usually wash out); I just wanted to make this class. See my thought process at the bottom of the linked post.

I'll finish the fluff later in the day.

Well if you're a dev I'd suggest throwing your editor at it because the wording on your abilities is all over the place and nowhere near formatted correctly. Other thoughts:

- What's up with that Fort save? That's not a standard progression - hell, it's not even a Medium progression, which can sometimes fly. If it's a Good save, make it Good. If it's Medium, fix it. As it stands it's weird for no reason.

- The progression on Style Mastery is odd as hell and doesn't seem to have much to do with the balancing factors of the various feats/weapons. Stunning Fist in particular is only really going to work if you have the spare ability score(s) to jack accuracy and the DC up.

- Quick Draw makes Cunning redundant, since it's also a free action, you an already interrupt your own actions with free actions, and it has no /round limit.

- Bedlam seems okay, but cripes man, you've given us a bunch of points and nothing to spend them on. Why the passive abilities?

- The wording on Adaptation is hideous. "Whenever an enemy makes an attack roll against the Stylemaster" is the correct wording, in addition to making more sense in English.

- Wording on Spontaneity is broken, you're missing a few words, and the ability itself is very potent. Brokenly potent? Possibly not, given how shafted melee is in Pathfinder, but potent enough to watch.

- Spectacular synergy...yawn. I mean, I've gotten this ability twice now, and here it is a third time at incredible effort cost! Most fights will be over before I reach 21 style points unless I take Great Cleave and throw a bag of rats into the air at the start of every combat to fuel up with.

- And then we get to the capstone that is not only worded non-functionally in the second part, but would be broken in the first part except, oh wait, everything will be dead before you ever see that many combo points ever ever ever.

- I wanted to address the Combat section. Namely that the advice in there? It's terrible advice. Armor Class provides returns that diminish and diminish rapidly. What you want is miss chances, non-armor class defenses like Mirror Image and Stoneskin, and some method of making yourself (and not the infinitely more dangerous spellcaster) a target.

- You really phoned in the "NPC Reaction" schtick.

In Summation: The class has broad holes in the bones and wording of it and the fluff could've been done much better. Additionally, it represents a massive money sink the likes of which melee cannot afford if it actually intends on fighting evil (or, for that matter, good) in a level-appropriate fashion. Reading your dev notes I can see that you had high intentions, but this is probably the exact wrong way to go about it - you don't have enough feats to burn, the feats are terrible in any event, and the class just feels so incredibly passive rather than active. The concept is definitely worth looking into, but perhaps in a different way. Have you considered using Tome of Battle and, say, some method of spontaenously swapping maneuvers?

[Dark.Revenant]

Well if you're a dev I'd suggest throwing your editor at it because the wording on your abilities is all over the place and nowhere near formatted correctly

Pathfinder formatting style. You'll find that it's written similar to how Paizo does things because several sections are essentially cut-and-paste from Pathfinder classes. Genuine errors will be edited out later.


- What's up with that Fort save? That's not a standard progression - hell, it's not even a Medium progression, which can sometimes fly. If it's a Good save, make it Good. If it's Medium, fix it. As it stands it's weird for no reason.

Pathfinder. That's exactly how the save progression is on Pathfinder PrCs. See the Eldritch Warrior, for example; his table looks identical to the one I used.


- The progression on Style Mastery is odd as hell and doesn't seem to have much to do with the balancing factors of the various feats/weapons. Stunning Fist in particular is only really going to work if you have the spare ability score(s) to jack accuracy and the DC up.

Haven't gone into the balance cycle yet; right now it's just in the concept refinement phase, so I threw down the various weapon types at gut-feeling spots.


- Quick Draw makes Cunning redundant, since it's also a free action, you an already interrupt your own actions with free actions, and it has no /round limit.

Cunning works on alchemical items, potions, scrolls, wands, and shields (assuming the action time is move, which is not always the case for potions, etc.) unlike Quick Draw.


- Bedlam seems okay, but cripes man, you've given us a bunch of points and nothing to spend them on. Why the passive abilities?

Wasn't finished fleshing out all the style rank abilities. All or most of them will have a point-spender and a point-generator.


- The wording on Adaptation is hideous. "Whenever an enemy makes an attack roll against the Stylemaster" is the correct wording, in addition to making more sense in English.

Editing cycle hasn't been done yet, but I agree.


- Wording on Spontaneity is broken, you're missing a few words, and the ability itself is very potent. Brokenly potent? Possibly not, given how shafted melee is in Pathfinder, but potent enough to watch.

Psionics has been doing it since Hustle; the only unique part is the immediate action, which costs a lot. Also yeah, the wording got changed around too many times and ended up dead.


- Spectacular synergy...yawn. I mean, I've gotten this ability twice now, and here it is a third time at incredible effort cost! Most fights will be over before I reach 21 style points unless I take Great Cleave and throw a bag of rats into the air at the start of every combat to fuel up with.

See response to Bedlam; more ways to gain points will ensure faster gain. Also, I'm going to throw all the point-gain part of the style rank abilities into Combo so they work all the time.


- And then we get to the capstone that is not only worded non-functionally in the second part, but would be broken in the first part except, oh wait, everything will be dead before you ever see that many combo points ever ever ever.

The first capstone ability is the same as the Adaptive Warrior's (psionics expanded) but not as powerful. I'm redoing the wording for those style feat portions, in any case, just like most of the writing on the class will eventually go through.


- I wanted to address the Combat section. Namely that the advice in there? It's terrible advice. Armor Class provides returns that diminish and diminish rapidly. What you want is miss chances, non-armor class defenses like Mirror Image and Stoneskin, and some method of making yourself (and not the infinitely more dangerous spellcaster) a target.

Wrote it in the morning when my brain was running on coffee and fumes. I'm definitely redoing that section.


- You really phoned in the "NPC Reaction" schtick.

It's what happens when you try writing fluff during a (boring) engineering class. In the morning. Don't do it, man.


In Summation: The class has broad holes in the bones and wording of it and the fluff could've been done much better. Additionally, it represents a massive money sink the likes of which melee cannot afford if it actually intends on fighting evil (or, for that matter, good) in a level-appropriate fashion. Reading your dev notes I can see that you had high intentions, but this is probably the exact wrong way to go about it - you don't have enough feats to burn, the feats are terrible in any event, and the class just feels so incredibly passive rather than active. The concept is definitely worth looking into, but perhaps in a different way. Have you considered using Tome of Battle and, say, some method of spontaenously swapping maneuvers?

Tome of Battle is 3.5 and thus doesn't fit into the same continuum of the PF style feats. Since I prefer the PF rule changes, adapting Tome of Battle would be a task outside the scope of the contest and would be too much of a hassle for any DM to consider for a single PrC. A better solution in this case IMO is to write some better style feats, which is actually what I planned to do. Don't know if that will disqualify me, though. Also, the money sink issue will be fixed in part with a much-needed enhancement bonus ability. The passivity is an artifact of having few low-tier style point spenders, which I'm going to fix.

Thank you for the feedback; I will improve the class accordingly.

[Lord_Gareth]

No problem to toss the critique out there.

Re: Writing New Feats - I've written new feats (and used them as pre-reqs!) and other folks have written new content outside the scope of just the PrC before. If you write it and it's finished by the time the contest is over, it's in and could affect how folks view your class. I'd say go for it.

[Dark.Revenant]

I have revised and completed the gameplay portion of Stylemaster. Fluff will be done later, as my weekend will be busy.

He might be a bit too good now. If this turns out to be the case, I'll have to make the entrance requirements more strict.

[Morph Bark]

Making the PrC formatting and save progressions exactly like Pathfinder's seems fine and dandy, but rather off for a contest aimed at 3.5, especially since there's another one specifically for Pathfinder.

[ErrantX]

Making the PrC formatting and save progressions exactly like Pathfinder's seems fine and dandy, but rather off for a contest aimed at 3.5, especially since there's another one specifically for Pathfinder.

This contest has been open to Pathfinder for months, Morph. I don't have a problem with people creating Pathfinder PrC for the contest. I only ask that they some how denote that it is for PF or 3.5 somewhere.

-X

[Morph Bark]

Ah, must've missed the note in between. :smallsmile: Since the other ones always have been solely 3.5, I just assumed the same of this one.

[Glimbur]

Chaos Manifester PEACH

'Manifester' usually means a psionic class. This is a spell casting class. You might consider a name change to avoid confusing people. It's the classic 'WotC needs a thesaurus' problem.


Special: Must have casted only spells with the chaotic descriptor on the level before this class and must have used a summoning spell of at least spell-level 3 to summon a creature with a chaotic alignment OR Delirionist level 5.
It is very difficult to only cast [chaos] spells for a whole level. I might reduce it to 'must know at least one [chaos] spell and not have cast any [law] spells last level'. Where is the Delerionist from?

Choose six skills is kind of strong, but whatever. Even UMD isn't a huge deal.

d6 hit die is larger than some casters get. Not a big deal.

Half BAB and good Will are pretty standard, but good Ref is a bit unusual.

9/10 casting progression is quite strong.

How does Chaos Familiar interact with a normal familiar? Can I have both?

The large Chaos Elemental at level 7 is useful. Is this affected by abilities that change summoning, like the Augment Summon feat?

Limbo Control is thematic and of reasonable power.

Chaos Avatar is a decent capstone. It's not necessary to take 50% hp damage when it ends.


CHAOS MANIFESTERS IN THE GAME
When placing this class in your game, expect alot of summoning and mental debuffs. Although it is not as powerfull as the calling spells, it is more spammable and thus might be a bit more powerwork then usual.
I found a typo.

This class starts out by getting interesting and flavorful abilities, but after level 3 the levels are pretty much dead. Stuff in more abilities, and maybe drop another caster level to pay for it.

[ErrantX]

Ah, must've missed the note in between. :smallsmile: Since the other ones always have been solely 3.5, I just assumed the same of this one.

Its been that way for a while, since Epically Destined. It's been a small note and yeah, I didn't really make a major announcement about it. But yeah, the little PF note has been there. I like Pathfinder (please don't stone me in the street) so I like to extend that courtesy to those who enjoy it but despise the mutants on Paizo's forums as I do.

-X

[Mephibosheth]

Just a few comments on the Adept of Loki.

I like it overall. It's an interesting concept and most of the abilities are fairly well-balanced, though it seems like its more for the lolz than for actual use in a campaign, especially given Grand Prize at 10th level :smallwink:. It's difficult to PEACH because nothing comes at a predictable level, but I have a few concerns.

First, the Erratic Action ability could be extremely powerful and could potentially come very early in the character's progression. Multiple standard actions means multiple spells per round, which can be pretty overwhelming no matter what level we're talking about. Also, how does this ability interact with full-round actions? If you have 3+ standard actions, can you use two of them to take a full-round action and then use the remainder for other things?

I'm also finding the SLA section somewhat confusing, particularly how an Adept of Loki should go about rolling for his daily SLAs. I assume the answer is "count how many SLAs a given level has and roll a die with that many sides," but I'm finding the list format somewhat difficult. I know you're probably sick of making them at this point, but a table would make this a lot easier. Also, it might be good to try and divorce the language of this section from the convention of numbered levels. So, rather than "at third level" say "when he has 3 levels in the Adept of Loki PrC." Because it is entirely possible for an Adept of Loki to not have third level.

My final concern is about the utility of the class' abilities that are based on class level. If you have a low Bizarre Limits roll and roll to get abilities that have a strong class level-based power curve, they're going to become pretty useless as you get into higher levels. And barring things like bloodline levels, I can't think of a way to increase your class level for these abilities.

Those are my thoughts. Again, a very interesting class!

[WaylanderX]

Chaos Manifester PEACH

'Manifester' usually means a psionic class. This is a spell casting class. You might consider a name change to avoid confusing people. It's the classic 'WotC needs a thesaurus' problem.


It is very difficult to only cast [chaos] spells for a whole level. I might reduce it to 'must know at least one [chaos] spell and not have cast any [law] spells last level'. Where is the Delerionist from?

Choose six skills is kind of strong, but whatever. Even UMD isn't a huge deal.

d6 hit die is larger than some casters get. Not a big deal.

Half BAB and good Will are pretty standard, but good Ref is a bit unusual.

9/10 casting progression is quite strong.

How does Chaos Familiar interact with a normal familiar? Can I have both?

The large Chaos Elemental at level 7 is useful. Is this affected by abilities that change summoning, like the Augment Summon feat?

Limbo Control is thematic and of reasonable power.

Chaos Avatar is a decent capstone. It's not necessary to take 50% hp damage when it ends.

I found a typo.

This class starts out by getting interesting and flavorful abilities, but after level 3 the levels are pretty much dead. Stuff in more abilities, and maybe drop another caster level to pay for it.

Thank you for the PEACH, you strike some very valid points.



It is very difficult to only cast [chaos] spells for a whole level. I might reduce it to 'must know at least one [chaos] spell and not have cast any [law] spells last level'. Where is the Delerionist from?

Changed it to the prereq you mentioned, that is indeed better.
Delirionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265575) is a Baseclass I made that revolved around insanity and chaos, which kind off fits the theme.


How does Chaos Familiar interact with a normal familiar? Can I have both?

Good call, maybe I should mention that you can only have 1 and that you can merge them? For example,that the normal familiar gains the pseudonatural template and the other way around, that the elemental gains 3/4 of its masters health instead?


but good Ref is a bit unusual.

Chaos is quite unpredictable, also movement wise. This is ment to reflect that a bit.


The large Chaos Elemental at level 7 is useful. Is this affected by abilities that change summoning, like the Augment Summon feat?

Yes, like I mentioned, it works and counts as a Conjuration (Summoning) spell.


It's not necessary to take 50% hp damage when it ends.

Not too strong without it? Mkay, fixed then.



This class starts out by getting interesting and flavorful abilities, but after level 3 the levels are pretty much dead. Stuff in more abilities, and maybe drop another caster level to pay for it.

Very well, thanks for the heads up, I'll get to work on filling it in a bit more.

[Mephibosheth]

And a PEACH of the Slaadborn Rager.

Another interesting class! This one seems somewhat...unfocused. Or at least not certain where its focus should be. And not intentionally like some of the other classes in this contest. It appears that there is a disconnect between the class abilities and the prerequisites. The class abilities make for a PrC that's best played very barbarian-like. Lots of raging, high physical abilities, high BAB, lots of melee. They also seem to build on a character that can change her own shape through some ability (as opposed to someone changing her shape for her. At least, if she wants to make regular use of the Slaadform ability. I hope I'm not wrong in seeing things this way.

Then you look at the prerequisites. First, there's nothing precluding someone from being the target of Polymorph and then entering this class. If you actually want the character to change her own shape, make it explicit in the prerequisites. Second, other than the high BAB requirement, nothing prevents someone from dipping barbarian for 1 level and having all of their other levels in a non-barbarian class like Druid or Wizard. In fact, these would be easy ways to fulfill the shapeshifting prerequisite, were it not for the fact that none of the class abilities other than Alternate Form provide for any continuation of non-barbarian class abilities.

So, barring racial shape changing abilities, a character can only become a slaadborn rager by being barb1/druid5/other full BAB class 3 or barb 1/wizard 3/other full BAB class 5. Which is a lot investment in abilities that aren't really supported by continuing the class, unless you go the druid route. And even then, all you get is more wild shape. Perhaps this isn't the most strident criticism since the slaadform ability does give limited shapechanging to even those who aren't able to do it themselves, but it's something to think about.

Mania: I like this ability, but I wonder about how you've written it. Specifically, the line about how the ability deals Wisdom damage while giving a corresponding bonus to physical ability scores. That strikes me as dangerous, since the Wisdom damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged) wouldn't go away after the duration ends; it has its own fixed healing rate. So you could only use this ability once, maybe twice a day before your Wisdom hits dangerous levels. Especially at higher levels. I'd change it to wording similar to the Drunken Master's Drink Like a Demon ability. Unless this was your intent, in which case carry on :smallwink:!

Slaadform: Another interesting ability, but it needs some clarification. Out-of-the-box slaadi have more hit dice than you could ever have when you change into them, based on this ability. How do you reduce their hit dice? What abilities are kept and lost? I don't think that it would be outrageous to just let a slaadborn rager just turn into the base slaadi without the hit dice reduction, as long as they are within the restrictions of the ability they use to shapeshift. Also, I assume that you gain or don't gain special abilities/qualities according the rules for the method by which you change your shape. If so, you should probably say this explicitly.

Chaos Form: Again, Wisdom damage seems too high a cost here. I'd suggest just a temporary reduction in Wisdom until the slaadborn rager changes back rather than actual Wisdom damage.

Finally, there appears to be a small typo on the half-slaad template. The natural armor listed doesn't match with the amount in mutation 4 of list 1. Which is it?

Those are my thoughts. I hope they're helpful. Great class!