Is it fair to give a villain PC wealth?

[Sir_Chivalry]

I'm working on an npc that is a villain who is at first a DMPC in the party, and actually helping. Now short of some VoP shenanigans, when this contributing member of the party shifts to npc, if I was using PC wealth before, the npc would suddenly lose a whole load of money.

So I ask, which would be better?

1. Using npc wealth the whole time.

2. Using PC wealth the whole time.

3. Doing the above situation, going from PC to npc wealth.

[Eldariel]

So I ask, which would be better?

1. Using npc wealth the whole time.

2. Using PC wealth the whole time.

3. Doing the above situation, going from PC to npc wealth.

Use WBL guidelines as guidelines and go with whatever makes sense? A wealthy merchant BBEG is like to have access to pretty much anything he wants...which is quite a lot. A 1000-year old Lich has probably acquired everything he cares about too.

A mad sorceress barely in his teens is unlike to have much beyond what his magic provides him (though depending on how exactly you handle certain spells and economy, that can be anything from "a lot" to "everything").


The WBL shouldn't really be tied to NPC levels; just give them the wealth as appropriate and then adjust the CR as necessary. Though yes, being closer to PC wealth than NPC wealth for big enemies is more reasonable; the reason NPC wealth is so much lower than PC wealth is to prevent the PCs from practically doubling their wealth every 4 enemies they slay.

[Kojiro]

Well, why would he suddenly become poor, just upon leaving the party? He may have a hard time getting more money, depending on his activities, but he shouldn't lose a majority of his fortune because he walked away from these guys.

Unless the Rogue or someone took it when he was leaving, I guess.

[HalfDragonCube]

How about number three, where they lose an item of value equal to the difference between PC and NPC wbl? When they turn on the party they could drop their magical sword or something like that before the fight and the party gets it as part of their loot for the encounter.

[Lockjaw]

When I was dming, all of my bbeg had pc wealth. It just made things that much more challanging and rewarding. Plus, I always hated npc wealth. If I could figure out a way to give the npcs pc wealth without flooding the party with magic items and gold, I would.

[mabriss lethe]

use PC wealth as a good guideline for what sort of toys he can bring to the table in a fight.

Now just incorporate some of those abilities as inherent abilities of the villain and leave the rest as potential loot.

If the players ask about his other toys just say that you don't know and maybe some of his valuables got lost or damaged in the fight.

This will keep wealth by level from getting out of hand once the party kills him and loots his corpse.

[HalfDragonCube]

When I was dming, all of my bbeg had pc wealth. It just made things that much more challanging and rewarding. Plus, I always hated npc wealth. If I could figure out a way to give the npcs pc wealth without flooding the party with magic items and gold, I would.

Why not have them explode? There's spells such as Death Throes that can do that IIRC. Your PCs might feel a little cheated, though.

[Crow]

Use the NPC wealth by level guidelines rather than the PC WBL guidelines. That's what they're there for.

It's reasonable enough to give the bad guy some wealth to play with and be effective, without ballooning the PC's wallets when he gets killed.

[Talakeal]

A mad sorceress barely in his teens is unlike to have much beyond what his magic provides him.

Well, in this case you have to factor in how much the girdle of masculinity / femininity set him back first.

[Kojiro]

Wealth isn't just money and magic items; property, services of various minions, the cost of constructed servants like golems, costly spell components that are consumed during use... Really, use the PC guidelines and then have him use his wealth effectively and sensibly (doing more with it than sinking it into magic items and throwing the rest into a big pile) and you'll avert the aforementioned problem of the PCs suddenly gaining a metric ton of money for killing him. Although if he's the "final boss" then that won't matter as much.

[Curmudgeon]

Those guidelines that set NPC wealth at about 30% of PC wealth are designed to create enemies that a PC party can reliably vanquish 4 times a day. Since you want to create a more significant enemy, just keep using somewhere around the expected PC wealth.

[Crow]

Those guidelines that set NPC wealth at about 30% of PC wealth are designed to create enemies that a PC party can reliably vanquish 4 times a day. Since you want to create a more significant enemy, just keep using somewhere around the expected PC wealth.

You sir, are one of the many around here who like to misquote that portion of the DMG and unintentionally mislead people who are looking for actual solutions.

More accurately, the NPC wealth guidelines are there to create encounters which are;

Easy 10% of the time (EL lower than party)
Easy if handled properly 20% of the time ("special" see DMG)
Challenging 50% of the time (EL equal)
Very Difficult 15% of the time (EL 1 to 4 above party)
Overpowering 5% of the time (EL 5+ above party)

...regardless of how many encounters there are "per day". Nowhere does it say PC's are expected to reliably defeat 4 encounters per day.

The OP should use NPC wealth from the beginning for a couple reasons;

1. When they finally do defeat the villian, he won't bulge their wallets and create possible balance problems, especially if he is higher level than the party when they defeat him.

2. Adding more shinies won't make the bad guy significantly more dangerous if the party still owns him in the action economy. The return isn't worth the investment, when it would be easier as the DM to give him some competent support, without having to worry about WBL balance issues later.

3. The OP stated that this guy will be a DMPC for a while. Keeping him at NPC wealth limits some of the "bad DMPC" potential he can have (though doesn't eliminate it entirely).

(edited)

[Sir_Chivalry]

You sir, are one of the many around here who like to misquote that portion of the DMG and unintentionally mislead people who are looking for actual solutions.

More accurately, the NPC wealth guidelines are there to create encounters which are;

Easy 10% of the time (EL lower than party)
Easy if handled properly 20% of the time ("special" see DMG)
Challenging 50% of the time (EL equal)
Very Difficult 15% of the time (EL 1 to 4 above party)
Overpowering 5% of the time (EL 5+ above party)

...regardless of how many encounters there are "per day". Nowhere does it say PC's are expected to reliably defeat 4 encounters per day.

The OP should use NPC wealth from the beginning for a couple reasons, but here are two;

1. When they finally do defeat the villian, he won't bulge their wallets and create possible balance problems, especially if he is higher level than the party when they defeat him.

2. The OP stated that this guy will be a DMPC for a while. Keeping him at NPC wealth limits some of the "bad DMPC" potential he can have (though doesn't eliminate it entirely).

Bad DMPC? Any suggestions on what to look out for? Seems to be implying I'm going to abuse this character somehow, like me having a DMPC instantly is a situation that lends itself to negative results.

[Jack_Simth]

When I was dming, all of my bbeg had pc wealth. It just made things that much more challanging and rewarding. Plus, I always hated npc wealth. If I could figure out a way to give the npcs pc wealth without flooding the party with magic items and gold, I would.
The answer to that is fairly simple:
Use a sufficient number of Treasure: None (or 1/2, or 1/10th, or...) critters in the mix to account for the difference. So you might have one CR 10 humanoid enemy with PC levels and PC wealth (49,000 gp in equipment), and then follow it up with nine or ten no-treasure CR 10 opponents (normal Treasure-per-encounter of 5,800 gp) to balance it out. It's even explicit - Dungeon Master's Guide, page 51, just under the "Treasure Values per Encounter" table:
On average, the PCs should earn one treasure suitable to their level for each encounter they overcome. The key, of course, is “average.” Some monsters might have less treasure than average, some might have more, and some might have none at all. As you write an adventure, it’s okay to combine the individual treasures listed for each monster into one larger hoard. If a dungeon is home to a beholder and numerous bugbears, for example, you can take some or all of the bugbear treasure and add it to the beholder's hoard.

[Kumori]

Bad DMPC? Any suggestions on what to look out for?

A bad DMPC is usually one which outshines the party. If you in any way, shape, or form come across as favoring the DMPC, it takes away from the experience of the players.

Don't deal the most damage in combat.
Don't do too much lockdown.
Don't step into anyone's specialized niche.
Don't feed yourself magic items (you can do that behind the scenes, if you must)
etc.

[Crow]

The answer to that is fairly simple:
Use a sufficient number of Treasure: None (or 1/2, or 1/10th, or...) critters in the mix to account for the difference. So you might have one CR 10 humanoid enemy with PC levels and PC wealth (49,000 gp in equipment), and then follow it up with nine or ten no-treasure CR 10 opponents (normal Treasure-per-encounter of 5,800 gp) to balance it out. It's even explicit - Dungeon Master's Guide, page 51, just under the "Treasure Values per Encounter" table:

Incidentally, this is also the key to overcoming the tendency of dragons to have pathetically small hoards.

I lump in everything including even the trek to get to the dragon's lair.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What I do is make my important NPCs relatively optimized so I can throw lower level ones (less wealth) at the party while still giving them big XP for the challenge. It evens out a little so I don't have to spend the rest of the day throwing dire rats at them.

[Sir_Chivalry]

A bad DMPC is usually one which outshines the party. If you in any way, shape, or form come across as favoring the DMPC, it takes away from the experience of the players.

Don't deal the most damage in combat.
Don't do too much lockdown.
Don't step into anyone's specialized niche.
Don't feed yourself magic items (you can do that behind the scenes, if you must)
etc.

Well the point is more I've found myself with an npc the players really like, and want to actively help and keep close, a young girl who's the punching bag for a villain of the moment. Once they started showing interest in keeping her around, I figured I should give her a useful skill set, and so I set about statting her.

The idea is more to use this opportunity to fill a niche that needs filling, and then have a villain that works well afterward. It's an urban game, lots of politics and intrigue, so having her be the most OP thing out there isn't necessary.

Lists of characters
Bard
Dragonfire Adept
Factotum
Artificer
Swashbuckler/Rogue
Swordsage
Psion

Options I'm considering, since this will give you guys something to advise me on:

A monk, going toward Fist of the Forest and Shou Disciple to actually do something with her fists later.

A paladin going into some combo of evil PrCs later

A cleric of some sort, or healer

[Jack_Simth]

Cleric, deliberately playing the band-aid box when with the party, works out fairly well for such things. Pick a Neutral deity (on the Good/Evil axis) and you don't even need to worry about switching deities when she goes off the deep end. Spell selection causes some fun stuff... and, well, if you're just playing the band-aid box, her feat selection doesn't show up.

As it's a social-based campaign, a Cloistered Cleric of Oldimara would do wonders...

[*.*.*.*]

A paladin going into some combo of evil PrCs later

I've always wanted to run something like

PoT 3/Hexblade 2/Ur-Priest 2/Bone Knight 10/X3

[deuxhero]

Yes, as long as the PCs get to loot it.

[ericgrau]

That's exactly the problem. It's fair for the villains, but even NPC wealth is crazy high treasure. PC wealth will overload the party's WBL in half after they loot it. You better be prepared to send a lot of low treasure encounters before and after that, or else live with a rich party.

The simple solution is to either give all NPCs joining the party NPC wealth, or to give him PC money but level up or template up the departing DMPC until his level is appropriate to his money by NPC standards.

[Kumori]

[...] level up or template up the departing DMPC until his level is appropriate to his money by NPC standards.

That's what I wanted to suggest, but I couldn't figure out how to say it. I recommend this as well.

[deuxhero]

That's exactly the problem. It's fair for the villains, but even NPC wealth is crazy high treasure. PC wealth will overload the party's WBL in half after they loot it. You better be prepared to send a lot of low treasure encounters before and after that, or else live with a rich party.

The simple solution is to either give all NPCs joining the party NPC wealth, or to give him PC money but level up or template up the departing DMPC until his level is appropriate to his money by NPC standards.


He asked if it was fair, not if it was balanced.

[Thurbane]

I'm pretty sure I have seen an official source that lists giving an NPC villain PC wealth warrants a +1 CR increase - might have been in the NPC stat block in a module?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm pretty sure I have seen an official source that lists giving an NPC villain PC wealth warrants a +1 CR increase - might have been in the NPC stat block in a module?Eh, when it comes to NPCs the challenge varies so much for a listed CR that you're just going to have to eyeball it. A level 7 monk shouldn't give the same XP as a level 7 druid, WBL or not.

[MeeposFire]

Personally I find WBL to be too high to be used in game in general for found loot. For this reason I started using a modified set of VoP bonuses plus items and loot I find to be appropriate for the NPC. This allows me to have NPCs that have full bonuses for their level but not give too much loot in defeat. Much nicer in the end if too much loot is a problem.