[DnD 3.5] Making the DM's Monsters My *Female Dog*

[theonesin]

We're going to be playing a level 10 session soon. No real limit on books, but no level adjustment allowed.

I want to play something that doesn't just nuke the enemy into oblivion, but rather debuffs them into uselessness, or more favorably, lets me take control or otherwise force the monsters against themselves.

Any suggestions?

[Worira]

Baleful Polymorph.

[TroubleBrewing]

Baleful Transposition. Dominate. Mindrape. A combination of Polymorph Self and Glibness. Charm Monster. Outright bribery.

[Jack_Simth]

We're going to be playing a level 10 session soon. No real limit on books, but no level adjustment allowed.

I want to play something that doesn't just nuke the enemy into oblivion, but rather debuffs them into uselessness, or more favorably, lets me take control or otherwise force the monsters against themselves.

Any suggestions?

Charm Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonster.htm), Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm), and Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) will be of use. As will Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm), Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm), Stinking Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stinkingCloud.htm), Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm), and Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm).

[HalfDragonCube]

Fly and a sack full of bricks.

Unconsciousness is kinda like a debuff, right?

[vampire2948]

Half-Dragon Gelatinous Cube spiked with a poison to reduce anything but Con down to 0.

[HalfDragonCube]

Half-Dragon Gelatinous Cube spiked with a poison to reduce anything but Con down to 0.

I would have suggested something like that, but I can't blitz all the threads with such wonderful advice. There really isn't a single thing you can't use one for.

[TroubleBrewing]

There really isn't a single thing you can't use one for.

Incorporeal Undead? :smalltongue:

/nitpick

[HalfDragonCube]

Incorporeal Undead? :smalltongue:

/nitpick

... I think I once swallowed a fighter with a ghost touch sword.

*Spits it out*

Mmmm... Ghost kebab.

[TroubleBrewing]

... I think I once swallowed a fighter with a ghost touch sword.

Ha. I think I can see it, actually. Right side of the cube, below the wing? :smalltongue:

[theonesin]

Ok, spells are a good start. Are there any specific classes/prestige classes that can pull this off well?

[TroubleBrewing]

Ok, spells are a good start. Are there any specific classes/prestige classes that can pull this off well?

Druid/Cleric/Wizard are the usual choices, though sometimes pulling something unexpected can be a fun surprise. Psion or Dread Necromancer might be able to pull it off, but not as well as the Big Three.

Plus, there's something satisfying about only needing the PHB to totally derail a campaign.

[Hazzardevil]

If you use rather Iffy rukes for thrallherd you can theoreticly take control of the monsters by killing your follower and thrall until the monster becomes your slave.
Or you can ask your DM for a refluffing of Thrallherd where rather than the people become forced to follow you.
They instead see you use your powers and start following you as they see you as your hero and are still treated as Thralls.

[NecroRick]

Nauseated (stinking cloud) is amazing - they can only take move actions.
Blinded (glitterdust) is awesome - trashes their AC and movement and makes it harder for them to hit (via a 50% miss chance).

But I think if you just made it your mission to nauseate everything the DM throws at you, then he will get sick [sic] of it pretty quickly.

I would suggest playing around with not just one or two debuffs, but the whole range of debuffs. There's some 30+ debuffs listed here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm

You should make it your mission to educate your party about them all, by running through them all. Not (obviously) in the one combat, but each combat bring out something different.

E.g. in the first combat Glitterdust. In the second stinking cloud. In the third you explore the shaken->frightened->panicked continuum.

"Blown away" as a condition summary is too good to miss the opportunity for remarks like "whoa dude, you totally blew him away". :D

[HunterOfJello]

Artificer using wand and Split Ray.

Telepath psion works very easily. Also, with the errata, you can augment Psionic Dominate so that it lasts day/ML so that your dominated creature will follow your commands for 10 days after that.

A wizard, an archivist, or any other crazy awesome spellcaster of that type.

[theonesin]

So, I've decided to make a Wizard 5/Incanatrix 5 for this. Someone in my group recommended I go Elf Generalist, but I worry that I won't have enough spells to cast per day. If I go with a specialist wizard(and/or Focused Specialist), what schools could I ban that would hurt me the least in giving me enough options for my various debuffs and such?

[Saintheart]

On the spell list, Slow, I think, makes monsters cry, even moreso than Glitterdust in my personal opinion. Slow reduces them down to a single move or single standard action, which leaves the party a lot more maneuverable. Glitterdust is very potent, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather 100% of no move + attack vs. 50% chance of no hit on an attack - especially in a world where a lot of monsters have Scent or Blindsight, which ameliorates Glitterdust to a large extent.

[Metahuman1]

Well, Evocation comes too mind since you said your not looking too blow stuff up, ans since you can summon or dominate minions to do that for you if the need really, really comes up. For your purpose, Necromancy or Divination might be your best bet for the second banned school. Though both have potentially useful spells, so it's gonna require some though.

But then I guess if your gonna dominate the crap out of things, it wouldn't be unreasonable to Dominate a couple of Evokers, and either a Necromancer or Diviner to cover your banned schools. That's what's cool about enchantment. Get a high enough saving throw DC and the ability to cast undetected, which admittedly requires investment, and you can theoretically create a whole wizard division.

[Metahuman1]

On the spell list, Slow, I think, makes monsters cry, even moreso than Glitterdust in my personal opinion. Slow reduces them down to a single move or single standard action, which leaves the party a lot more maneuverable. Glitterdust is very potent, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather 100% of no move + attack vs. 50% chance of no hit on an attack - especially in a world where a lot of monsters have Scent or Blindsight, which ameliorates Glitterdust to a large extent.

Slow+Stinking Cloud+Glitter Dust+ Grease/Evards Black Tenticals Makes monsters wish the warrior would just hurry up and finish them off. =)

[Saintheart]

Slow+Stinking Cloud+Glitter Dust+ Grease/Evards Black Tenticals Makes monsters wish the warrior would just hurry up and finish them off. =)

Except for incorporeal undead; out of those five spells only Slow affects them :smallbiggrin:

[Curious]

Oh, I know what you want. This here is a class which not only has traditional debuff spells, but an assorted bag of hexes which never run out and also debuff.

I give you- The Pathfinder Witch. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch)

One of the most hilarious combos is to combine Misfortune with the Cackle hex; one unfortunate enemy is going to be covered in a pile of fail for the entire encounter. And, once you get to level 10, you can go for the Split Hex (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/split-hex) feat for double the pain!

[Hunter Killer]

My favorite is Hexblade 5 / Paladin 4 / Bard 1. Le'me explain:

Hexblade obviously comes in handy with the Hexblade's Curse. In addition to that, Dark Companion ACF (PHB2) lays on some extra debuff and/or provides infinitely reuseable debuff once you're out of Curse attempts. Intimidate is a class skill, so you pump that like crazy.

Paladin has to be the Paladin of Tyranny (Unearthed Arcana). He gets that nasty Aura at 3rd that gives them an always-on AoE debuff. Again, Intimidate is a class skill, so it gets maxed in these levels. You're taking 4th level for Turning + Power Attack as bonus feat with the Holy Warrior ACF (Comp Champ).

Bard is in there for one thing: The ability to take the Doomspeak (Champs of Ruin) feat. It's usable 1 time per day, so Extra Music (Comp Adventure) is required so you can use it a few more times. It's a save crippler that's just wrong when you stack it with the other negatives you already pump out.

The build does also want Dreadful Wrath (Player's Guide to Faerun) at 1st and/or the Never Outnumbered skill trick. They both allow you to try and demoralize large groups of enemies all at once (which means more debuff goodness).

If the game goes past 10th.... I see the most solid finish coming from Ur-Priest. :smallamused:

A bit of DMM Quicken cheese using both the Paladin and Priest's Turning as fuel. Obviously grabbing Divine Power (PHB) would be a good idea, and you want Travel Devotion (Comp Champ) at some point (Burn some of your massive amount of Turns to increase useage per day!).

Human and as your race and Flaws (Unearthed Arcana) would be your best bet to grab all the feats I mentioned... Otherwise you'll have to choose between some of them. :smallyuk:

[Saintheart]

Bard is in there for one thing: The ability to take the Doomspeak (Champs of Ruin) feat. It's usable 1 time per day

Waitaminute, wha? :smallconfused:
Doomspeak's powered by expenditure of bardic music attempts -- it's not a once per day feature, unless they errata'ed Champions of Ruin when I wasn't looking. The only question mark over it is what type of action's required to use it: none's specified on the feat description, and since it amounts to a string of curses, you could argue it can therefore be done as a free action.

The more RAI likelihood is that it's a standard action use like most other forms of bardic music. If so it's a debuff for the other casters in the party to benefit from, to wit you blast down the monster's saves and then the casters hit it with encounter-enders like Glitterdust. Houseruled as a swift action it becomes nice since it allows the bard to do his own Glitterdusting (if he's got more than one level in bard, that is.) Only indirectly is it a great combat debuff for your fighters since it doesn't target AC: only attacks, damages, saves, and ability checks. (This does mean you can make better Grapples, Trips, and Disarms, though, since those rely on ability checks and you've suckified the creature's AoOs.)

[Zaq]

Waitaminute, wha? :smallconfused:
Doomspeak's powered by expenditure of bardic music attempts -- it's not a once per day feature, unless they errata'ed Champions of Ruin when I wasn't looking. The only question mark over it is what type of action's required to use it: none's specified on the feat description, and since it amounts to a string of curses, you could argue it can therefore be done as a free action.

The more RAI likelihood is that it's a standard action use like most other forms of bardic music. If so it's a debuff for the other casters in the party to benefit from, to wit you blast down the monster's saves and then the casters hit it with encounter-enders like Glitterdust. Houseruled as a swift action it becomes nice since it allows the bard to do his own Glitterdusting (if he's got more than one level in bard, that is.) Only indirectly is it a great combat debuff for your fighters since it doesn't target AC: only attacks, damages, saves, and ability checks. (This does mean you can make better Grapples, Trips, and Disarms, though, since those rely on ability checks and you've suckified the creature's AoOs.)

The build mentioned has one level of Bard, so it only has Bardic Music once per day.

[Saintheart]

Ah.

Only other thing to mention is that Doomspeak functions best on pure bards, since they can focus boosting only CHA. A saving throw of 10 + char level + CHA is nice, but once you're getting to level 10 or so, anything under +5 or +6 on CHA is decidedly suboptimal for this type of feature. And a multiclasser that's had four levels of Paladin MAD isn't going to be fantastic. You might as well try to build a Bardadin instead.

[CigarPete]

Well, Evocation comes too mind since you said your not looking too blow stuff up, ans since you can summon or dominate minions to do that for you if the need really, really comes up. For your purpose, Necromancy or Divination might be your best bet for the second banned school. Though both have potentially useful spells, so it's gonna require some though.

But then I guess if your gonna dominate the crap out of things, it wouldn't be unreasonable to Dominate a couple of Evokers, and either a Necromancer or Diviner to cover your banned schools. That's what's cool about enchantment. Get a high enough saving throw DC and the ability to cast undetected, which admittedly requires investment, and you can theoretically create a whole wizard division.

How are you banning Divination?

[Hunter Killer]

Ah.

Only other thing to mention is that Doomspeak functions best on pure bards, since they can focus boosting only CHA. A saving throw of 10 + char level + CHA is nice, but once you're getting to level 10 or so, anything under +5 or +6 on CHA is decidedly suboptimal for this type of feature. And a multiclasser that's had four levels of Paladin MAD isn't going to be fantastic. You might as well try to build a Bardadin instead.

The build I posted should focuses primarily on high CHA and mid-range STR, with CHA being faaaaaar more important. CON should have no negative if possible, although a bonus is ideal. I hate negatives, so my stats in a 28 point buy would be: STR 13, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 17. That's really quite workable.

WIS is unnecessary because you're not after Paladin spells, INT is not necessary because you don't care about any skill but Intimidate, and DEX is not needed because you're going to rock heavy armor (Screw the Hexblade/Bard spells; You're not going to cast them).

I disagree that having just a +5 in CHA bonus would be suboptimal... That'd be a DC 25 10th level (10 + 10 + 5). Most monsters of that level are going to have to rock at minimum a 10 on the d20 to resist it, so at worst it will work 50% of the time. Oh, and that's before you add in the fact that you're giving them -4 to saves via Dark Companion and the Paladin of Tyranny's Aura (Which you'd want to stack on before a Doomspeak or Curse), which means they'll have to rock an even higher roll.

Furthermore, more than one level of Bard in my build would suck and more than five levels of Paladin would be useless, so that's why I put in the Hexblade. Its synergies with Bard and Paladin, the Curse/Dark Companion, and the awesome class abilities (Mettle!) made it the perfect fit for the OP's goal (Super Combat Debuffer).

Soooo... Build works as intended. 'Nuff said. :smalltongue:

[theonesin]

While I appreciate the continued advice, I'm going to stick with Wizard/Incanatrix. The last times I played Cha-based characters, they didn't work out so well roleplay-wise(I'm too shy to be party face).