"necromanic" Paladin (but not really) 3.5 help?

[Draconi Redfir]

So a few weeks ago in my D&D meetup group, my regular campaign was cancelled due to DM family issues, so another member started a shackled city game for us, in this, i rolled a paladin, and wound up with the "long shadowed" trait* (spoilered below) And since then, the idea of a paladin with a necromantic heritage has intrigued me. Basically, longshadowed means i have ancestors in a now-dead tribe of necromancers, i auto-stabilize below zero hitpoints (free diehard feat!), i take less damage from negative-energy, and i must remove my level from all healing spells i receive to a minimum of one, meaning at level ten or so, a cure light wounds spell would only heal me for one hit point.

Our regular campaign is over now, and at the next meetup, we are going to be resuming the shackled city campaign were we left off, and since I’m so intrigued by the idea, I’m wondering if there is any way i could maximize on this thing without going beyond the rules of the meetup.

The DM is unfortunately strict, and with the rules of the meetup, no evil characters or classes are allowed, meaning no necromancers, no blackguards, or anything i am aware of that could lead to "a skeletal army of justice" as (in his own words) "creating a skeliton still requires defiling someone’s corpse, which is an evil act." i proposed a few options, minor chance of natural suggestion to enemy undead creatures (Response: take a level in cleric for turn undead) use of ghost martyrs like in OOTS (still undead, still evil) and since healing spells don't work as well for me, i was thinking perhaps negative energy spells could heal me for half the intended damage (he seemed to consider this, but i had forgotten about the reduced-damage from negative energy spells when i asked, and he said he would check the rules, so it seems unlikely.)

So far the only thing I’ve got going for me in this thing is a signet ring with the symbol of the necromantic tribe/my family on it (It's long dead, so i figure people wouldn’t recognise it, but since i am a paladin of a god of justice, another player suggested this might make people think im untrustworthy, so the ring should have a coin-type top which flips to my gods holy symbol or something) and one thing the GM suggested, "im looking to restore honour to my fallen family" which seems nice, but not quite what i wanted.

Any ideas on how i could possibly embrace the necromanic-heritage in a way that is still working with the rules? i'm not sure its even possible since there appears to be a house-rule in effect in which "dark arts" may not be used for "good" since they are inheritably evil, and therefore against the rules of the meetup group. Still i would appreciate any options or suggestions i can get so i can ask my GM about it and see if it's acceptable. at current, i can't really think of anything.


* Long Shadowed
You are descended from a tribe of indigenous peoples who died out as a separate tribe many centuries ago. Still, this tribe’s penchant for necromantic magic runs in your blood.

Benefit: You automatically stabilize if reduced to negative hit points. When you take damage from negative energy, you reduce the actual damage you take by 5 points.

Drawback: Healing magic works poorly on you. Whenever you regain hit points from magical healing, you gain 1 less point of healing per character level you possess, to a minimum of one point per die rolled.

Roleplaying Ideas: You are somewhat morbid and intrigued by death and undeath, even if these interests are purely to learn more of your enemies.

will probably take into account the roleplaying ideas listed in the spoiler, but still looking for other options that can enhance the mechanics aspect of the gameplay in my favour. Thanks again in advance, more info on the character can be provided if necessary.

-Gicko.

Edit: List of possibilities:

Bone Knight prestige class, Five Nations. "It's exactly a paladin with undead related abilities, no moral code requirements, and the easiest entry to the class is Paladin 4, IIRC." Would require an alignment shift, but i could possibly justify it by only using the corpses of evildoers to make up for their misdeeds by performing good actions in unlife, or if that is not acceptable I could look into the knights other abilities and just not use undead.

Tomb-Tainted-Soul feat, Libris Mortus. Tomb-tainted Soul: you interact with positive and negative energy exactly as an undead does (you're healed by negative and harmed by positive energy).

Take damage from healing spells and heal from negative spells, hardly a convenient form of healing, but it would counteract my reduced healing and reduced damage from healing and negative spells respectively, so it might work. Who knows? perhaps the long-shadowed thing will let me remove my level from any damage taken by positive energy spells. (Although unlikely.)

Tomb-warden presteige class, Lirbris Mortus. "Tomb Warden PrC. It is a 3-level full BAB class that gives you Cha to attack, damage, saving throws once per day for 10 minutes." Unlikely, but might work.

[Kyeudo]

I suggest the Bone Knight, from the Five Nations. It's exactly a paladin with undead related abilities, no moral code requrements, and the easiest entry to the class is Paladin 4, IIRC.

While some of the classes most fun abilities are good for a minion master, they aren't the entirety of the class. Personally, I'd suggest gunning for a grey-line LN character, believing that commiting some bad now can prevent more bad from happening later. Only use necromantic abilities upon the corpses of evil beings so that they might be used in service to a better cause.

[erikun]

The Tomb-Tainted Soul feat from Libris Mortis, prehaps? Gain healing from negative energy and take damage from positive energy? Although your DM might rule that out as "too evil" or possibly munchkining (given that healing spells hardly affect you anyways).

Other than that, you can be a Paladin of Kelemvor/Wee-Jas without any problem. Well, a Paladin of a primarily magical deity might be kind of odd, but Paladins of Kelemvor are not that odd. They even have their own prestige class, although as undead hunters.

[Draconi Redfir]

i'm allready a paladin of St. cuthburt, the settings god of justice. The bone knight idea looks interesting, perhaps i could write it off as serving justice to the evil by having their remains perform good acts or something. it's a long shot, but its possible.

Is it possible to get a full discription of the tomb-tainted soul feat and the bone knight? or is it one of those "if you dont own the book you can never know about it" deals?

i'll write both of these ideas down and ask the GM next time i see him.

[mucco]

Tomb-tainted Soul: you interact with positive and negative energy exactly as an undead does (you're healed by negative and harmed by positive energy).

Once, for my campaign, I made an undead (Necropolitan, doesn't give you anything except Con -> -, if you're interested) Paladin NPC who used the Tomb Warden PrC. It is a 3-level full BAB class that gives you Cha to attack, damage, saving throws once per day for 10 minutes. Stacking with the Paladin bonuses. I found it amusing, and it's potentially decent for an undead-themed Paladin. Maybe you can talk to your DM about allowing something similar.

[Human Paragon 3]

Prestige into Death Delver from Heroes of Horror. I am playing one in a Tomb of Horrors play-by-post right now, and it's a lot of fun! Although you won't be as strong a character as even a single-classed paladin, you get a very interesting mish-mash of abilities (including Rebuke undead and deathwatch at will, which allows you to tell automatically if someone is alive, dying, undead or a construct. HIGHLY useful). It also goes along with the "morbid fascination with death" that your character is likely to have if the trait description is followed.

There is a feat in, I believe, PHB II or Complete Arcane that gives you a few level 0 or 1 necromantic spells as spell-like abilities, which would be a good choice for your kind-of-necromantic paladin as well (I think it's chill touch and two level 0s).

EDIT: The feats I was looking for were Necropolis Born (which gives you cause fear, ghost sound and touch of fatigue) and Soul of the North (which gives you chill touch, ray of frost, and resistance).

[Kyeudo]

Is it possible to get a full discription of the tomb-tainted soul feat and the bone knight? or is it one of those "if you dont own the book you can never know about it" deals?


Sadly, the Bone Knight is not open-source material nor did it have any sort of web release. You'd need the book or at least someone willing to type the whole thing up for you.

Bone Knight has only three class abilities related to animating the dead, all relatively minor compared to the rest of his class features. By the time you finish the class, you have all the DR and immunities of a skeleton, a bonus 1d6 damage when attacking living targets, and an undead warhorse. Also you can just kill someone once a day.

[Draconi Redfir]

EDIT: The feats I was looking for were Necropolis Born (which gives you cause fear, ghost sound and touch of fatigue) and Soul of the North (which gives you chill touch, ray of frost, and resistance).

The palidan is a divine caster though, wouldn't i need to multiclass to an arcane caster for that?


And i'll see if i can borrow someones libris mortus or something.

[Coidzor]

The palidan is a divine caster though, wouldn't i need to multiclass to an arcane caster for that?

Necropolis Born has no prerequisites, just gives Spell-Like Abilities, which are not limited to arcane casters. And the saves are based on Cha, so there's something for the Paladin.

[noparlpf]

Where did that trait come from? Just wondering, sorry I don't have any constructive ideas. I dislike necromancy on principle, considering I'm the type who sleeps with a crowbar in case of zombies.

[Coidzor]

Where did that trait come from? Just wondering, sorry I don't have any constructive ideas. I dislike necromancy on principle, considering I'm the type who sleeps with a crowbar in case of zombies.

Necropolis Born? Complete Arcane (p. 81)

[The Glyphstone]

Looks homebrew to me.

[noparlpf]

Necropolis Born? Complete Arcane (p. 81)

No, "Long Shadowed" from the OP.

[Draconi Redfir]

it's from the shackled city campain that i am playing in, if you are a local resident to the area, then you rol a d% and get a random trait, such as longshadowed, wyrmblooded, firetouched, or something like that. it's just a little chart ment to make things a little more interesting.

[deuxhero]

Stone shape+flesh to stone.


No corpses defiled!


Alternatively, be a smart necromancer and animate dead animals, humans are worthless undead because they retain nothing worth using (but animals do).

[Draconi Redfir]

Think those would require a few levels in an arcane caster though.

[Groverfield]

Note that ghosts are not evil, they will ping in a Detect Evil spell for being undead, but they can have any alignment, so it's possible to have something (a good aligned ghost) ping under both Detect Good and Detect Evil spells. If everyone has a problem with any spell labeled "Necromancy," considering it haneous and evil, then roll up a cleric, and refuse to perform any resurrections because that too is necromancy.

Also if anyone gives you chides for using necromancy as "morally grey" ask if weapons are "morally grey" as well.

I'd say try to find a way to get fast healing 1, given that it's not a spell, or even if it is affected as such, it's a constant effect, just as fire resist 10 would only absorb the first 10 point of constant fire damage. You won't be able to take healing if you're getting beat on as well, but you'll still be healing it back quickly out of combat.

Other ways of going Grim Paladin.... summon undead spells instead of actually creating them?

I do think thought that deuxhero has a good idea going for him. Also, worship Wee Jas if you're using core deities, the LN god of death that can give paladins spells.

[Draconi Redfir]

Prestige into Death Delver from Heroes of Horror.

Any chance i could get a little more info on that?

[deuxhero]

Think those would require a few levels in an arcane caster though.

Pretty sure divine casters can animate dead animals/monsters just like wizards.


You can also team with another PC or pay an NPC for the stone to flesh (stone shape is a cleric spell). 660 for the casting. A slight premium, but OK.

edit: Oh right, you are going Paladin. Go Cleric/Prestige Paladin (UA/SRD), or even just Cleric and say you are a Paladin.




I do think thought that deuxhero has a good idea going for him. Also, worship Wee Jas if you're using core deities, the LN god of death that can give paladins spells.

Speaking of Wee Jas, her fluff does contain stuff for this IIRC, she requires bodies be legally obtained (Outlaws and monsters have no rights in most settings, so both should be legal).

[Coidzor]

With the right Domain you should be able to use animate dead from a domain slot despite being a good-aligned cleric, IIRC.

and clerics get it two levels before wizards, and 3 before sorcerers and dread necromancers.

But that's all rather moot for the current character due to deity selection and existing build and DM kibosh.

[Draconi Redfir]

Sadly guys, the paladin as a character has already been made and played, i can't just go back and sudenly make him a cleric. i'm asking the DM about a weapon from the tribe's glory days that can steal life from living targets and give it to me and other such things, i'll need to see what he says.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. there is a weapon property from... enemies and allies, I believe that does just that. Well, half of the damage you deal is healed to you.

Wrathful healing. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120685) +3 enchantment bonus, I think...

I believe Vampiric is a +2 that does an extra 1d6 and heals one for whatever the value that came up on the 1d6 was.

[Dream_Merchant]

Multiclass into Binder for 5 levels, opt for the Improved Binding feat and then take Knight of the Sacred Seal choosing Tenebrous, The Shadow that Was as your patron vestige.

Tenebrous is the vestige of the death deity that was once Orcus, the demon prince of the undead. Making a pact with Tenebrous and taking him as your patron vestige would be precarious for a paladin, although nothing in the rules stipulates that you must forsake the path of righteousness and justice.

His special requirements are that you must draw his seal in the night or in an area of deep shadow with little to no daylight.

The sign of Tenebrous is that you seem to be always in shadow no matter how bright it is outside or where you stand. Also your shadow never extends far from you, despite what the extension of light sources would indicate.

The influence of Tenebrous is that you are filled with a sense of detachment and an aching feeling of loss and abandonment.

The Knight of the Sacred Seal allows you to multiclass back into Paladin should you need to.

It is up to you to try and do the seemingly impossible as you struggle with Tenebrous as to who will be the master of your own will (at least until you take your first level in Knight of the Sacred Seal prestige class).

Good luck warrior.

EDIT: Another option, which is far more straightforward is to relax the racial requirement for Illumian (or retro your character from Human to Illumian, which isn't such a big change) and take the Shadow Sentinel prestige class. that also solves your weapon problems.

[Acanous]

there's a feat in Eberron Campaign Setting that allows you to use Diplomacy on mindless undead. You're a paladin, Diplomance your way to an army.

[Draconi Redfir]

Multiclass into Binder for 5 levels, opt for the Improved Binding feat and then take Knight of the Sacred Seal choosing Tenebrous, The Shadow that Was as your patron vestige.

Tenebrous is the vestige of the death deity that was once Orcus, the demon prince of the undead. Making a pact with Tenebrous and taking him as your patron vestige would be precarious for a paladin, although nothing in the rules stipulates that you must forsake the path of righteousness and justice.

His special requirements are that you must draw his seal in the night or in an area of deep shadow with little to no daylight.

The sign of Tenebrous is that you seem to be always in shadow no matter how bright it is outside or where you stand. Also your shadow never extends far from you, despite what the extension of light sources would indicate.

The influence of Tenebrous is that you are filled with a sense of detachment and an aching feeling of loss and abandonment.

The Knight of the Sacred Seal allows you to multiclass back into Paladin should you need to.

It is up to you to try and do the seemingly impossible as you struggle with Tenebrous as to who will be the master of your own will (at least until you take your first level in Knight of the Sacred Seal prestige class).

Good luck warrior.


Ok yeah this sounds awsome, but would probably cross the border into evil, and be pretty complex to do.

[hamishspence]

Binders typify "dark is not evil"- just because the vestige you're drawing power from has a long history of malevolence, doesn't mean that you're going to be corrupted by it.

That said, devoting oneself further to Tenebrous than just binding him (taking levels in Tenebrous Apostate, for example) requires a nongood alignment.

And in general, taking levels in the binder class tends to be against the code of conduct of most deities- making it a Fall-worthy offense according to ToM.

Though a paladin of a "cause" could probably get away with it.

[Dream_Merchant]

Ok yeah this sounds awsome, but would probably cross the border into evil, and be pretty complex to do.

Well, it can be the quest for the impossible. Orcus, even though an ancient demon, started his existence as a mortal. Full story below:

History

Orcus is a very old demon. Like many of the most powerful demon lords who struggle for power in the Abyss, Orcus started his existence as a mortal on the Prime Plane. He was apparently a wicked spellcaster of some sort, most probably a priest to some dark deity. After his death, his soul, like the souls of all chaotic evil mortals, went to the Abyss and Orcus began his afterlife as a lowly larva.

Orcus proceeded to climb through the demonic ranks in the next several thousand years, going from larva to mane, then on to dretch, rutterkin, vrock, glabrezu, nalfeshnee, and eventually a balor. From there, he ascended to the rank of demon lord, becoming the Prince of the Undead and ruling the layer of Thanatos, the Belly of Death. Even though there are other demon lords aspiring to the title of "Prince of the Undead", Orcus' claim to the title has gone unchallenged for the most part. Ever hungry for more power, Orcus wanted to be recognized as "Prince of Demons", a title held by Demogorgon and coveted also by Graz'zt. As a result, he became the arch-enemy of both demon lords. In time, Orcus also achieved true godhood.

However, shortly after his divine ascension, Orcus was slain by the drow demi-goddess Kiaransalee, who took over rulership of Orcus' layer of the Abyss and locked his wand away in the last layer of Pandemonium. Kiaransalee decreed that Orcus's name be erased from all existence.

A peculiar combination of events thwarted Kiaransalee's plans. Acererak's tampering with the nature of the Negative Energy Plane, the last prayers of Quah-Nomag, and the unexpected awakening of some of the sleepers of the demiplane of Moil combined to cause the spirit of Orcus to be reanimated as an undead god. Renaming himself Tenebrous in order to help obscure himself from his enemies, he traveled to ruins buried in the sands of Pelion. There, he discovered the Last Word, an utterance so powerful that it can destroy deities. The Last Word will also eventually kill those who know it unless the being is a true deity. Thus, to restore his lost divinity, Tenebrous went in search of his wand. During his search, Tenebrous killed several gods and other powerful entities, including Bwimb, Primus, and Maanzecorian. Tenebrous's efforts were stymied by a group of adventurers and he was again destroyed, this time by the power of the Last Word. A cabal of greater deities, in response to Tenebrous's predations, has since weakened the Last Word considerably.

Orcus was resurrected by Quah-Nomag, one of his foremost high priests and thralls, in a blasphemous ritual enacted in the Astral Plane. Orcus then reclaimed his kingdom and his original name, re-proclaiming himself "Prince of the Undead". However, as a result of his second death and resurrection, Orcus has lost his divinity and the ability to use the Last Word, and is a demon lord once more.

Orcus's divinity now exists as a vestige, also named Tenebrous: The Shadow That Was, and can be called upon by binders.

Vestiges yearn the experience of reality through the senses of the binder and as such shares the life of the one that binds them, in effect seeing through their eyes, hearing through ears and living the existence that is now denied to them as a vestige. In return they grant their powers.

Your paladin could be mad enough and bold enough to choose Tenebrous as his patron vestige in the grand and elaborate quest to redeem the once mortal, turned demon, turned demon prince, turned god, turned vestige by allowing the vestige to experience the life of goodness through the paladin. An impossibly ambitious feat no doubt.

[hamishspence]

Orcus has lost his divinity and the ability to use the Last Word, and is a demon lord once more.

In Dungeon Magazine (the second last print issue) Orcus is statted out- and has a toned down version of the Last Word.

[Draconi Redfir]

Welp, we tried. DM just shot down every idea i threw at him. Guess i'll just load up on high AC items, high CON items, and a ton of toughness feats.

[Xanmyral]

Question, why does your DM have that trait if he doesn't want anyone to play something to use it effectively? Like a necromancer, or some morally ambiguous character? Seems silly to have such a thing if you don't want anything related to it show up in a PC.

[Draconi Redfir]

Evil characters are banned from the games at the meetup due to young children occasionally showing up, and doing evil things while children are around is bad.

And necromancy and stuff is bad too.

[Coidzor]

Aww, but kids love (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1qgmdVgN70)singing skeletons! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv1HX80u5x4&feature=related) :smallfrown:

[Dream_Merchant]

Ok.... how about these options, non-evil and non-ambiguous but still to do with a necromantic background:

1) Occult Slayer (Complete Warrior): A warrior that believes that mortals are too irresponsible to hold magic and thus hones herself to combat magic users of all kinds. Abilites include: Magical Defense, Weapon Bond, Mind over Magic, Vicious Strike, Auravision, Nondetection Cloak, Blank Thoughts. You can play in your trait as a general aversion to magic.

2) Witch Slayer (Tome of Magic): A warrior that hunts beings that forcefully bind themselves to others or beings that willingly accept the binding of beings. Abilities include: Smite Spirit Sharer, Mettle, Locate Possession, Slippery Mind, Momentary Disjunction. You can play in your trait as a hunter of ghosts and other malevolent spirits.

3) Ghost Slayer (Ghostwalk): A warrior that is specialised in hunting incorporeal creatures, particularly ghosts. Abilities include: Untainted Spirit, Silver Aura, Protected Vessel, Detect Ghost, Ghost Touch Aura, Ghost Bane Fires. See above for trait.

[NecroRick]

Any ideas on how i could possibly embrace the necromanic-heritage in a way that is still working with the rules? i'm not sure its even possible since there appears to be a house-rule in effect in which "dark arts" may not be used for "good" since they are inheritably evil, and therefore against the rules of the meetup group.


Actually, certainly with respect to raising the dead, that's not a house rule, technically that is RAW.

However, as far as RAW goes, there are multiple different approaches to alignment (consider the Eberron campaign setting where alignment is much 'looser').

As for tomb tainted soul, normally I'm a big fan, but in this case I recommend not.

Firstly, the DM gave you a cool background that kind of does part of what the tomb-tainted soul does anyway. So spending a feat on it is sub-optimal, because you're spending a feat to override a 'half-feat', with a net expenditure of 1 and a net gain of a half.

Secondly, negative energy falls into the 'evil by definition' category along with animating. So it probably won't work with your DM's choice of RAW.

Thirdly, if your DM gives you cool stuff, don't throw it back in his face and say you want something better. It sounds like your DM is susceptible to the rule of cool, so work with him, not against him.

My suggestion for how to work a little necro into your heritage as a pally is to consider that the necromancy school of magic has lots of spells that aren't Enervate or Animate Dead. See if he will let you add them to your spell list, things like chill touch, backbiter, death armour, life bolt, shroud of undeath, spawn screen, disrupt undead greater, healing touch, burning blood.

Alternately, focus on debuffs like sicken or weakening them.
A third option for imported spells is things like cause fear. Show your DM the scene from LoTR where Galadriel gets offered the ring...


In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!

Also, there are certain Paladin spells that have a necromantic 'flavour' such a Divine Sacrifice. Even if he wont let you expand your spell list, you can concentrate on them. Note that there are crystals you can add to your weapons to give you life back when you hit. Or try and get fast healing from somewhere, that should bypass the pseudo-feat since even undead can use fast healing... even if he won't expand your spell list with the above suggestions... if you use this well (rather than abuse it), you may convince the DM to rule of cool in life bolt and healing touch, which also have a sacrificial theme.

NB if you havent already done so, check out the battle blessing feat from complete champion

[Dream_Merchant]

A little more radical approach would be to forsake St Cuthbert, and as a matter of fact all deities since none of them did anything to stop the destruction of your race and tribe and embrace the philosophy of the Athar eventually becoming a Defiant (Planar Handbook) who has an assortment of anti-divine tricks in his arsenal of abilities. Bitter and disillusioned by the deities, you champion the power of good as a force that is higher and independent of any deity, who albeit very powerful are neither infallible nor perfect.

I would not recommend this if there are any clerics of particular deities in the party as your relation would be unfriendly if not outright hostile.

[hamishspence]

I would not recommend this if there are any clerics of particular deities in the party as your relation would be unfriendly if not outright hostile.

The cleric of Finder didn't especially dislike the Athar in Finder's Bane, nor did Finder himself- but that was partly because, as an ascended mortal, Finder was fully aware of his own fallibility.