shutting down a player

[big teej]

hyper short version:

I need a spell that is GURANTEED to remove a 6th level fighter from a combat.

not kill
not maim
not permanently harm.

simply, remove. preferably temporarily.


the "why" is simple.

the group as a whole has yet to grasp simple tactics. (flanking is a good idea, not letting the giant monster full attack you)

we have decided that the most efficient way of accelerating their understanding is to throw an opposing party at them, and illustrate the effectiveness of simple tactics.


for the purposes of this encounter, we have deemed it necessary to remove the one other player who knows what he's doing (this was in fact, his idea)

now, being the by-the-book kinda guy I tend to be. I'd like to do this by the book.

so I'm here for a spell that can reliably remove him for the duration.

I was thinking Force Cage.


tl;dr
what is a spell that can remove a fighter from combat without any negative long-term effects?

more information can be provided if deemed necessary.

[Kenneth]

glitterdust

any fear spells


grease.


the spells that can do this is actually quite large.

these tops 3 though are the best as they target his weak saves

[big teej]

glitterdust

any fear spells


grease.


the spells that can do this is actually quite large.

these tops 3 though are the best as they target his weak saves

I am aware.

I just like to come pester you guys because the playground consistently comes up with things I didn't think of :smallcool:

that said, glitterdust and grease just made it into the suprise-round/first round casting slots until someone tops them.

[Jeraa]

for the purposes of this encounter, we have deemed it necessary to remove the one other player who knows what he's doing (this was in fact, his idea)



If the player that agreed is the one you are trying to remove, then he can just say he failed his save (Still roll the dice, but just say he rolled low). That way, you plan won't backfire and he succeeds on the save.

As for what spell, Hold Person works.
Blindness/Deafness kind of works, but is permanent.

[nyarlathotep]

hmm maze works. I specifically used it recently with the ghostly (or spectral was it) variant of cloaker in my campaign.

[Jeraa]

Also, Sleep or Deep Slumber.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maze is a guaranteed way to get him out of there, but it's a bit high level.

For an opposing party closer to their level, maybe get him separated and then Web him. Bands of Steel (SpC) is also pretty effective.

Edit: Or a Druid with Greenbound Summoning could summon a Greenbound Dire Rat which then uses its Wall of Thorns spell-like ability to trap him.

[TroubleBrewing]

Something big and scary to grapple and then pin him down. Level 6, shouldn't be hard.

Girallon is CR 6, as is a Gargantuan Monstrous Centipede. Both of those will grapple his ass to the ground, leaving the other monsters of the encounter to clean up your hapless victims other party members.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Baleful Polymorph, though it's a bit high level. The classic Hold Person should also work.

[Malimar]

I was going to say Time Hop, but apparently, in addition to the starting Will save, it allows you to make a DC15 Wisdom check every round and come back if you make it. It would be funny to just keep manifesting it on him every time he comes back, but certainly not the most effective method.

A Crypt Thing (from the Fiend Folio) or two might be an even better bet, and only CR3. Contrive for the fighter to be more than 30 feet away from the rest of the party, then Scatter Defilers on him. Now he's 10d10x10 feet away in a random direction. Save DC is a little low, but maybe switch out a feat or two for Ability Focus or something.

[Flickerdart]

Solid Fog is probably the best spell to use - no save, doesn't actually harm the fighter. It will take 4 turns for him to exit the fog, and you don't have to fudge rolls to do it.

[Shadowknight12]

Charm Person. He won't attack his allies, but he won't attack the caster (or his friends) either. He'll be torn with doubt and hesitation, like a guy watching his friends fighting. Let him RP it out.

[big teej]

excellent suggestions so far.

and for the record, this is mostly in the event that a party member sees his die roll.

and, unbeknownst to my player, it's also a testbed for me to experiment with shutting down individuals.

[TroubleBrewing]

it's also a testbed for me to experiment with shutting down individuals.

It's pretty easy, actually. Just attack their weak points.

Low spot? Sneaky-stabby types that perform hit-and-run tactics.

Low save? Target that one.

Low ability score? Reduce it to 0.

Low HP? Focus fire.

Low AC? Volley attacks.

Low mobility? Underwater adventure time.

[Crow]

I would just use "grease" to put the fighter on his bum.

Nice and easy, with no pulling out spells that the group doesn't have access to.

[[CLASSIFIED]]

Some ideas at about their level:
Deep Slumber (Basically Sleep but it affects 10 HD instead of 4 HD)

I think someone mentioned this, but Hold Person.

Suggestion might work– you could just tell him not to do anything, or you could think of something more creative.

[Slipperychicken]

If you're willing to dabble in psionics, there's Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm). Nothing says "shut down" like being chucked forward in time. If there aren't any psions in the "enemy party", get a Mirror of Time Hop (MiC 165, 9000gp). Push target 5 rounds into the future 2/day, Will DC 14. The power allows DC15 wisdom check to reappear each round; the Mirror has no such check but is only 5 rounds.

[peacenlove]

Solid Fog is probably the best spell to use - no save, doesn't actually harm the fighter. It will take 4 turns for him to exit the fog, and you don't have to fudge rolls to do it.

Widen it just to be sure :smallamused:

Split ray Ray of stupidity (maybe empowered just to be sure, or homebrew a charisma draining one) will drop his Int to moronic levels if not outright comatose him. Then he can pretend believably that he can't grasp simple tactics and maybe fall into a simple pit trap or do something similar.

The shadowcaster mystery Afraid of the dark does the same for wisdom, but more damage, no roll to hit but will save and a level higher.

Empowered ray of enfeeblement is more effective than it seems. If he wears full plate and carries 3 melee weapons (to bypass various DR) and a ranged one, he will drop to medium or even heavy encumbrance, not to mention unable to attack/damage effectively.

Black tentacles. Fly + windwall (limits your mobility) or protection from / reverse arrows (ineffective vs magic arrows).

[marcielle]

Spike his drink with a full bottle of Ipecac. He will barf uncontrollably for ten turns.

Have a villain use a bottle of shape sand and encase him in a sand prison. Do not specify dimensions. Let him roll to attack sand and break out but secretly THIS DOES NOTHING. He breaks out when you see fit. Assuming this party is quite new they probably won't nitpick at you. This way also teaches them how awesome using items creatively can be.

Trap chute of indeterminate height. Have him climb out just in time to help the party. Vagueness is your friend.

[TurtleKing]

Some other spells that could work are Ray of Exhaustion which doesn't remove him from combat but does reduce his STR and DEX by -6 unless he makes the save. Even on a save it still goes down by -2 so he isn't incapable of acting just not as effective forcing the group to compensate.

Slow, Confusion, Crushing Dispair, Resilient Sphere, Enervation, and Fear all can either remove him from combat or reduce his effectiveness for a time. The spells that hamper instead of just remove him also fall in line with Grease and others.

[Crow]

As an alternative, you could create an encounter which separates him from the party, especially since he is onboard with the thing.

For instance, the party is moving across a rickety rope bridge. It doesn't look like it will support the whole party's weight at once, but individually should be no problem. The fighter goes last. Once the rest of the party gets accross, the fighter steps on and the accumulated strain causes the bridge to give way. Luckily he hadn't stepped all the way on the bridge yet.

As the party thinks of a solution, they are attacked from both sides of the (former) bridge!

[Rei_Jin]

A pixie who can cast Otto's Irresistable Dance is a CR 5 encounter.
Otto's Irresistable Dance has no save, and lasts for 1d4+1 rounds.

There you go.

[Shadowknight12]

A pixie who can cast Otto's Irresistable Dance is a CR 5 encounter.
Otto's Irresistable Dance has no save, and lasts for 1d4+1 rounds.

There you go.

Couple with Maximise Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability for 7 rounds of hilarity.

[Hecuba]

He's a fighter? Bestow greater curse (setting Str to 1) with a quest condition that's trivially easy to meet outside of combat. Even if he can meet his encumbrance requirement and move at all, he has 1 str.

You can, theoretically, have an arcane caster get it as a 4th level wand (via demonologist list), precast before combat, and designate his familiar as the toucher.

3 of them would actually be ideal (one for each default effect), but managing that might be a bit of a stretch

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

As an alternative, you could create an encounter which separates him from the party, especially since he is onboard with the thing.

For instance, the party is moving across a rickety rope bridge. It doesn't look like it will support the whole party's weight at once, but individually should be no problem. The fighter goes last. Once the rest of the party gets accross, the fighter steps on and the accumulated strain causes the bridge to give way. Luckily he hadn't stepped all the way on the bridge yet.

As the party thinks of a solution, they are attacked from both sides of the (former) bridge!I like this a lot, especially because the fighter player has something to do as a reward for his cooperation. Just don't kill him :)

Also, if it doesn't work out (flight on the fighter to carry people over), you can still use the will save or X tactic once they cross.

[TurtleKing]

Can even go so far as to use an alchemical item that should keep him busy for a little.... A Tanglefoot bag can hamper him for a little as well as some other items. Some even replicate "Fog" type spells to a smaller degree.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

I like the idea of seperating him instead of just using a spell. Gives him a chanse to roleplay feeling helpless. Other than that I would chose some spell that let him still be in the game but unable to participate i combat (charm person as someone suggested).

But I have to ask, is the opposing group supposed to beat the crap out of the players or are they supposed to make them realise the benefits of teamwork?

If the later, might I suggest you design the enemies as an unoptimized group that work well with each other. That way you can point the players to the fact that you don't have to optimize to contribute.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Widen it just to be sure :smallamused:

Split ray Ray of stupidity (maybe empowered just to be sure, or homebrew a charisma draining one) will drop his Int to moronic levels if not outright comatose him. Then he can pretend believably that he can't grasp simple tactics and maybe fall into a simple pit trap or do something similar.


Feeblemind would do the same thing really. Drops his int to that of an animal, takes Heal to fix it.

Ray of Enfeeblement offers no saving throw at all and drains 1d6 +1/2 lvl worth of STR, maximize it and he'll be on his but due to encumbrance in no time.

[ericgrau]

Grease and glitterdust as teaching tools seem odd b/c I'd want to use them to teach the crawling/prone-fighting and blindness/listen rules which reduce the two to a brief inconvenience and a 50% miss chance. Unless the player plays dumb instead (or doesn't know any better) and says "whelp I'm out of the fight", which I think is counterproductive to teaching.

Forcecage is a lot better but it's a bit heavy handed. Wall of force is much better than that but still a 5th level spell; still no save. Solid fog is a nice 2 round delay and only level 4. 2 of those in sequence would be nice but it might catch the fighter's allies too. Ah here we go, deep slumber, only level 3 and you can center it near the fighter. A simple slap from his ally will wake him up, but at least you're teaching aid another; the fighter can't do anything until then. Charm or hold person(s) may work but the saves are easier

So in short, the lowest level certain way I can see is wall of force. There are a lot of methods below that level you might want to try but they're not very reliable.

[opticalshadow]

id personally homebrew an exciting spell to do it, if not you could go with a baleful polymorph (and make it temp) and turn him into a turtle or something,

[JaronK]

He's sixth level, and you won't be showing good tactics if you hit him with super high level stuff. Just use Grease or Glitterdust (or both) and you're done. He won't stand a chance.

JaronK

[HunterOfJello]

A single bad roll against a Suggestion spell and the order to "run north" will remove a fighter from a fight for multiple hours.

Charm Person could also be good. The fighter gets charmed and just stands in the middle of the fight ignoring both sides until it's over.

[IonDragon]

Empowered ray of enfeeblement is more effective than it seems. If he wears full plate and carries 3 melee weapons (to bypass various DR) and a ranged one, he will drop to medium or even heavy encumbrance, not to mention unable to attack/damage effectively.

If he wears Full Plate he is already at Heavy Encumbrance.

If your character is wearing armor, use the worse figure (from armor or from load) for each category. Do not stack the penalties.

Also, there's Hideous Laughter and Web.

Or use some terrible Kobold trap that makes him slide down into a pit with greased walls so he can't get himself out until someone can haul him up after the combat has been resolved.

[KillianHawkeye]

A bead of force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beadofForce) targets touch AC and Reflex, deals a nice chunk of damage (but not enough to seriously endanger a 6th-level Fighter), lasts for 10 minutes, can't be removed by any means available to a 6th-level party except for dispel magic, and only costs 3,000 gp. It's a perfect "make you helpless" item, provided you can catch the Fighter without any allies within 10 feet.

[NecroRick]

Charm Person. He won't attack his allies, but he won't attack the caster (or his friends) either. He'll be torn with doubt and hesitation, like a guy watching his friends fighting. Let him RP it out.

If he's in on it, you could have him turn to the opposing spellcaster, bow and say in a scary voice:

"What is your bidding my master?"

:D

[HunterOfJello]

"What is your bidding my master?"

:D

Spellcaster: "It's a disaster! Skywalker we're after!"

[Knaight]

Not mentioned yet are the various Wall of X spells, some of which are pretty low level. Sure, they can eventually be cut through or climbed over, but until they are they effectively split the battle field.

[hewhosaysfish]

IIRC freezing fog contains the "best" qualities of solid fog and grease in a 5th level spell.

[Essence_of_War]

Wall of Ice or Wall of Stone can be shaped in such a way as to remove him from combat for at least a few rounds.

Depending on his str score, weapon carried etc.

If you have an arcanist in the party who sees that use of the wall spells, they may get intrigued by the possibilities.

[noparlpf]

Maze is pretty good; most Fighters have mediocre Int at best.
I think there's a Psion power that works similarly, but I don't think they get the check every round to get out. I don't remember what it's called; a party member used it once. I've never actually looked at the Psionics books.

[Zolthux]

Hideous Laughter?

[ericgrau]

A bead of force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beadofForce) targets touch AC and Reflex, deals a nice chunk of damage (but not enough to seriously endanger a 6th-level Fighter), lasts for 10 minutes, can't be removed by any means available to a 6th-level party except for dispel magic, and only costs 3,000 gp. It's a perfect "make you helpless" item, provided you can catch the Fighter without any allies within 10 feet.

An expendable also provides a more plausible reason why the fighter gets hit by one at low level. The only lousy part is if he gets a lucky roll on his DC 16 reflex save and you have to say, "Um... they throw another bead of force, and another! No you don't find any in the treasure, why?" He's got, what, a +3 reflex save modifier at this level? You could have him fudge the die roll but... eh

How about tons of drow knockout poison? It's cheap so it's reasonable to spam and not unreasonable treasure (especially if it's already on the arrows) and eventually he'll fail a DC 13 save even with his +7 or +8 or whatever fort modifier. It'll look kind of odd that they keep targetting the fighter. Maybe if they somehow get potions of delay poison, the fighter is of course the last candidate, and somehow the drow know it? :/

Or empowered ray of enfeeblement and/or lots of shadows, who go after the fighter of course. Once he gets above a heavy load from drain its a full round action to move 5 feet. And everything used is reasonably low level.

[peacenlove]

If he wears Full Plate he is already at Heavy Encumbrance.


I stand corrected. For some reason I thought that you take the -6 ACP associated for heavy Encumbrance to attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks.

[Anderlith]

Hold Person, Halt, & Web. My personal favorites though are Charm Person, Command, & Suggestion

[Pokonic]

Charm person, Maze, Web.

[Warlawk]

Level 1 Empower Spell
Human Bonus Split Ray
Level 3 Easy Metamagic: Empower
Level 5 wizard bonus feat Easy Metamagic: Split Ray
Level 6 Arcane Thesis: Ray of Enfeeblement

Empowered Split Ray of Enfeeblement as a level 1 spell. Even if you drop both Easy Metamagic feats it's only a level 3 spell. If the enemy is the same level as they are that's 1d6+4 (it gets +1 per 2 levels and Arcane Thesis increases caster level by 2) then empower multiplies by 1.5. 7.5 average str penalty on someone that is already carrying a heavy load is pretty much going to just take them out of the fight as well as really hurt his AB and damage. Split ray gives you the option to either hit another person or double target the fighter to make him take the larger rolled penalty.

If the enemy caster is higher level you can always use chain spell instead of split ray. Chain spell does half damage but RoE doesn't do damage, it gives a penalty, and since there's no save the penalty from chain spell doesn't matter. Arcane thesis and easy metamagic combined let you really abuse this spell against anything that isn't immune. All the other suggestions here are great of course, the usual batman wizard control stuff.

This wizard guide has a breakdown of spells by level and school with a strong focus on control if you feel like perusing it.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0

[IonDragon]

Hideous Laughter?

Hidous Laughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm). I don't know why no one ever uses this spell.

[noparlpf]

Hidous Laughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm). I don't know why no one ever uses this spell.

It's a beautiful spell. I think most people don't use it often because it only affects one target and they get a +4 on their save if they're another creature type. It's still pretty amazing. I would use it if I ever played an Enchanter.

[Pigkappa]

Doing this with spells allowing a save is really easy and I don't understand why you are still talking about this. You can do this since level 1 (with Sleep, or Color Spray).

It's more interesting to do this with low level spells that don't allow a Save (or work even if the save fails). Web is good for this. What else can we do?

[Pentachoron]

It's a beautiful spell. I think most people don't use it often because it only affects one target and they get a +4 on their save if they're another creature type. It's still pretty amazing. I would use it if I ever played an Enchanter.

It could be related to your character having to throw little tarts at the target as well.

[ffone]

Ditto any Wall spells (was surprised when I CTRL+Fed and didn't see them on the 1st page!) As long as the guy tends to position himself where he can be Walled off (he's the fighter so maybe he goes in front?)

One good way to spread out the PCs is a rickety rope bridge or similar bottleneck where the PCs are afraid to put the weight of more than one person on it at once.

Also, traps! Like a hidden pit in the floor which drops the fighter (harmlessly, perhaps into water) into a separate chamber. Perhaps it's only triggered by more than X pounds - your rogue may go first to check for such things, but a stereotypical fighter weighs more than a stereotypical rogue.

[SleepyBadger]

I guess any spell would do the trick that does not harm him physically and targets will saves. And you may need a fairly low level one, to make it credible. So as it was suggested, fear spells, hold spells, Tasha's Hideous Laughter etc. Although using some potent poison, reducing either his STR or DEX to 0 would do the trick too. Ray of Enfeeblement is a great spell but only reduces STR to 1. The other players may still try and ask him for tactical advice, even though he'd be encumbered to death. Of course the effects of poison might just last too long if the party does not have a healer.

[awa]

sudden maximized shivering touch drops most any thing

[ericgrau]

It could be related to your character having to throw little tarts at the target as well.
That's my main reason for wishing to take the spell. Everything else about it is what have made it a borderline choice so far; haven't been able to fit it in on a character yet.

[Xerinous]

Well, if you need to shut him down, just hit his power button and his OS will do it automatically.
(I feel someone had to make the joke.)

Animate rope could be useful. Rope ties up the fighter, DC 23 strength check or DC 20 escape artist check to get out. Requires a ranged touch attack though.

Or use something to knock him into a trap, especially a pit trap with greased sides.

[Zyoto12]

Not necessarily the best option level wise, but the mental image is hilarious to me. The Zerth Cenobite prestige class has an ability that lets you literally punch someone 10 rounds forward in time.

[IonDragon]

Doing this with spells allowing a save is really easy and I don't understand why you are still talking about this. You can do this since level 1 (with Sleep, or Color Spray)

Except the character in question is immune to Sleep (only works on < 5 HD) and Color Spray stops him for one round if he fails his save.

[Gabe the Bard]

Empowered Ray of Clumsiness and Shivering Touch. They're both 3rd level spell slots. Drop his Dex to 0 and he's paralyzed. No save.

[Anderlith]

There is a nifty spell called Blockade (1st Level) that summons up a 5-by-5-by5 cube of wood to a square adjacent to you that lasts for one round & the casting time is a swift action.

[Flame of Anor]

Resilient Sphere.

[Groverfield]

Teleport Circle might be the awesomest way to do it, i.m.o. Have a teleport puzzle, possibly interrupted by a fight so the party's stranded without their fighter.

[AppleChips]

I was going to suggest have some wizard come and teleport him out, but I realize now that teleport and dimension door both can only bring willing creatures. Still, a teleport circle would work

[lesser_minion]

Empowered Ray of Clumsiness and Shivering Touch. They're both 3rd level spell slots. Drop his Dex to 0 and he's paralyzed. No save.

Given that the entire purpose of the exercise is to have the party be exposed to tactics that the DM wants them to use, I don't think Shivering Touch need apply.

JaronK already covered why this also excludes Maze and Teleport Circle.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you don't mind psionics, Ecto Cocoon is always fun. But I agree, the best way is to use a really common but easily overlooked spell, like Grease or one of the fog clouds.

[Anderlith]

You could go with a non magic solution & use tanglefoot bags, caltrops & sovereign glue.

[big teej]

I find the amount of spells that are going to be unleashed upon this fighter greatly amusing =D

I also like the idea of using a rope bridge to seperate them.

[herrhauptmann]

Baleful transposition?
He's now perched on a tiny ledge 60 feet up, while raptorans are diving down at the party. (Need some reason why there's an enemy 60 feet up a cliff, and the fact they can fly is the best I got)
Even if he's crazy brave, you've still taken him out of the fight for 2 rounds. That's assuming he's willing to drop down and take the damage, then spend another round standing up.
If he starts climbing down, it'll take him even longer.