Fixing the Druid (PEACH)

[Yitzi]

Druids are in many ways the most powerful class of all, due in large part to wildshape. This is an approach to trying to fix that for core-only, to try to bring them down to tier 3. It comes in two parts:
1. Weaken the melee capability of druids (from wildshape) down to less than a raging barbarian.
2. Cut down on the druid's overpowered spells, so that that's not broken.
The result should be highly versatile but not particularly powerful, i.e. tier 3.

Fixing Wildshape:

1. If a wildshape form has a physical ability score higher than the druid's normal score (excluding enhancement bonuses), the difference is an enhancement bonus. (Thus, it does not stack with items or spells.) If the new form has a lower score, the new score replaces the old score.
2. There are no wild shields. (If extending this to non-core, there are also no wild clasps.)


Fixing spells:

-Spike Growth, Spike Stones, and Wall of Thorns all have 1-minute casting times. (Otherwise, they're just way too powerful as battlefield control.)
-Winds created by Control Winds have a Fortitude DC either equal to 10+spell level+caster’s key ability score (like a spell) or the DC to resist such a wind if it occurs naturally (as by the table on page 95 of the DMG), whichever is less. When the spell creates a tornado, its size is limited to a size of 50’ radius for every 3 levels.
-When Fire Seeds is used to create bombs, each casting of the spell has a different command word (not under your control, but known to you). It is therefore impossible to set off more than 8 bombs at once.
-Spells shared with wizards are fixed; I posted my plan for those here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205725).


Thoughts?

[drack]

Well you're attacking wildshape and spells right? Well druids are one of the three 'pure casters', and honestly there are enough spells out there that there isn't really a way to do it spell by spell. You could attempt to attack their access to spells, but personally I'd tap wildshape, maybe limit it to one natural attack, toss natural spell, if you really wanna hurt it say wildshape can't exceed half your druid level.

also I'd say having a companion that is just as strong as the druid is another potential strike. Perhaps set it's HD max at half druid level and advance at 1/6.

anywho I play druids and think barbarians are way more powerful (especially how my friend plays em), but that's just my opinion, so best of luck with your fix :smallbiggrin:

[Yitzi]

Well you're attacking wildshape and spells right? Well druids are one of the three 'pure casters', and honestly there are enough spells out there that there isn't really a way to do it spell by spell.

There's only slightly over 100 in core (which is all I'm dealing with), and most of them aren't broken.
Although that reminds me...I do need to add in a shapechange fix.


You could attempt to attack their access to spells, but personally I'd tap wildshape, maybe limit it to one natural attack, toss natural spell, if you really wanna hurt it say wildshape can't exceed half your druid level.

Thing is, that won't help any with the broken spells...and a non-broken wildshape and non-broken spell set cannot produce more than a tier 3 character since there's really no synergy between the two.


also I'd say having a companion that is just as strong as the druid is another potential strike.

There's no way it's anywhere near as strong as the druid, though, at higher levels. For all its power, it's still an animal, and at higher levels an animal of the sort you'd have been facing several levels ago. Equipment helps narrow that gap somewhat, but not all that much.

[gkathellar]

There are a bunch of good Wildshape fixes out there. The Shapechanger variant, the Giant's fixes, or the way Pathfinder does it are all nice. I would consult all three before you make any definitive decisions about how to fix it on your own. Bear in mind, though — Wildshape is a Tier 3 class all by itself, and Animal Companion is a Tier 4-5 character even before the druid buffs it into the sky. It's like a less egregious Leadership.

(Also, can you add a Venomfire fix? I know it's not core, but just as a personal favor for me, please?)

[Yitzi]

There are a bunch of good Wildshape fixes out there. The Shapechanger variant, the Giant's fixes, or the way Pathfinder does it are all nice.

All of those really seem to be more polymorph-like than I want; a wildshaping druid is, in my understanding, becoming more like an animal than could be achieved with polymorph.


I would consult all three before you make any definitive decisions about how to fix it on your own. Bear in mind, though — Wildshape is a Tier 3 class all by itself

How powerful, though? The combination of two weak tier 3 classes is still tier 3 assuming they're competing for actions and there's no synergy.


and Animal Companion is a Tier 4-5 character even before the druid buffs it into the sky.

No way...the animal companion is strong and tough, but it's got few to no special capabilities (whereas even a warrior at high levels can be expected to have one or two tricks from feats), has weaker stats than a tier 4, and most importantly of all is dumb. If what you want the animal companion to do isn't on its highly limited trick set, you need to spend a move action to persuade it to do it (or, at lower levels, to have a chance of persuading it to do it).

And buffing an animal companion into the sky is a lot harder when you've got only core spells to work with.



(Also, can you add a Venomfire fix? I know it's not core, but just as a personal favor for me, please?)

That's relatively easy: Venomfire lasts for only one attack, whether it succeeds or not. (Alternatively, it lasts until expended by a successful attack, and raise its level to 5. Or make it do only 1d6 damage rather than 1d6 per level, give it a 1 round/level duration, and leave the spell level where it is.)

[Roderick_BR]

Looks good thus far.

A suggestion on the wildshape: rename it to "nature power" or something. At 1st level, you pick if you'll get wildshape (using the Player's handbook weaker variant), OR the animal companion (maybe using the rules for the animal cohort feat?).
At higher levels the druid could choose to gain also the other power (both wildshape and animal companion) OR "upgrade" the one power starting power, so it's like the Player's Handbook normal one.

It's not really that much a nerf, and turns the druid into 1.5 or 2 characters, instead of 2.5 characters.

[Yitzi]

A suggestion on the wildshape: rename it to "nature power" or something.

Why? Wildshape is what it is. In fact, it's probably closer to wildshape as originally intended than the current system is.


At 1st level, you pick if you'll get wildshape (using the Player's handbook weaker variant), OR the animal companion (maybe using the rules for the animal cohort feat?).
At higher levels the druid could choose to gain also the other power (both wildshape and animal companion) OR "upgrade" the one power starting power, so it's like the Player's Handbook normal one.

I don't really know what weaker variant you're talking about (my PHB doesn't have it), nor do I have the animal cohort feat rules. Also, I'm not quite sure why you can't have both animal companion (as an NPC with its own mind, of course) and a mildly nerfed wildshape.


It's not really that much a nerf, and turns the druid into 1.5 or 2 characters, instead of 2.5 characters.

How is the druid 1.5 or 2 characters? He still can't take more than one standard action per round. So while he can heal (inferior to a cleric), blast (inferior to a wizard) or go melee (inferior to a barbarian), he still can't do all three at once. Essentially, he trades power for versatility...and that seems balanced to me.

[Dryad]

I think they're referring to PhB II shifter druids. They don't get an animal companion, but start out with a very different kind of wildshape.
Personally, I'm all for that.
Let caster druids have their animal, and let shifter druids have their... Shifting. But not both in both.

[Yitzi]

I think they're referring to PhB II shifter druids. They don't get an animal companion, but start out with a very different kind of wildshape.
Personally, I'm all for that.
Let caster druids have their animal, and let shifter druids have their... Shifting. But not both in both.

I don't really see the point of banning it...a caster druid can generally do more damage with spells (even the multiple-use ones like Call Lightning) than as animals (at least with the fix). So if a druid with a companion and no wildshape isn't broken, neither is a druid with a companion and wildshape.

Unless I'm missing something big here... (in which case I'd appreciate if someone could explain it to me.)

[Togath]

The shifter druid forms are much weaker than standard wildhsape, at least at low levels(1st form grants a 1d6 bite and a +4 bonus to str and natural armor, while the highest from grants two 2d6 slam attack and a +16 bonus natural armor and str, and immunity to crits.), and you can not cast spells while in one of the shifter forms(not even with natural spell)

[gkathellar]

The reason that people say the druid is worth 2.5 characters is that it can fill literally any role in a party and gets a whole extra set of actions to contribute due to its animal companion. Presumably, this is balanced by animals not being as good as full characters ... except that they totally are. A buffed, wild shaped druid is about as if not more powerful than a buffed cleric of the same level, and its animal companion probably won't be much behind (at lower levels, said companion will probably actually be even more ridiculous than the druid itself).

[Dryad]

I don't really see the point of banning it...a caster druid can generally do more damage with spells (even the multiple-use ones like Call Lightning) than as animals (at least with the fix). So if a druid with a companion and no wildshape isn't broken, neither is a druid with a companion and wildshape.

I'm trying to advocate an 'either or' scenario. Either animal companion OR animal form. Reason being: A shapeshifting druid is a full melee character (especially with the buffs that are her hallmark), that also has some other caster versatility. She can work in melee, and doesn't need much protection. So no animal companion.
A caster druid would try to keep herself away from the melee as much as possible. She's the kind of druid to buff her animal companion and send that into the front lines, instead. She's the one to call lightning from a distance. So no wild shape for her.

I'd say that's pretty fair, right?

Oh, and yes, indeed. Fully buffed animal companions are the same as fully buffed clerics, really. Well; Clerics have a few more buffs, and can wear all sorts of magic items, of course, but still. A fully buffed animal companion is very impressive, when compared to a non-buffed fighter.

[Yitzi]

The shifter druid forms are much weaker than standard wildhsape, at least at low levels(1st form grants a 1d6 bite and a +4 bonus to str and natural armor, while the highest from grants two 2d6 slam attack and a +16 bonus natural armor and str, and immunity to crits.), and you can not cast spells while in one of the shifter forms(not even with natural spell)

That doesn't really explain why the standard wildshape form is too powerful.


The reason that people say the druid is worth 2.5 characters is that it can fill literally any role in a party and gets a whole extra set of actions to contribute due to its animal companion.

The fact that it can fill any role in a party doesn't make it worth even 1.5 characters, since it can't fill two roles in the same round, and it can't fill the noncombat roles (where rounds don't matter) beyond a very basic minimum (well, except for those using Survival, of course).

As for the companion...the druid can contribute extra actions, but those actions are extremely limited. Nothing ranged, nothing complicated (unless the druid "pushes" the companion.) Plus, that still doesn't explain why wildshape+companion is more broken than just companion.


Presumably, this is balanced by animals not being as good as full characters ... except that they totally are. A buffed, wild shaped druid is about as if not more powerful than a buffed cleric of the same level

How so? The cleric (unless fixed, in which case being compared to it doesn't mean much) has full BAB, +3 attack and damage, and a bunch of defensive abilities. What does the druid have that at all compares to that?
A better standard of comparison is the barbarian (who's actually supposed to be a melee character). So how does a buffed, wild shaped druid compare to a buffed, raging barbarian?


and its animal companion probably won't be much behind (at lower levels, said companion will probably actually be even more ridiculous than the druid itself).

It still has the limitation of being an animal, with all that implies.

[Togath]

It still has the limitation of being an animal, with all that implies
I think the reason is because at higher levels a druid can cast Awaken Animal on their companion(increasing it's int to about 10), at which point their companion is effectivly another member of the party.

[Dryad]

No; an Awakened animal cannot be a companion.

No; you see: A Druid's Animal Companion shares spells. A cleric, for instance, has a 3/4 BaB. So does an animal. So does a Druid. A druid can buff herself in as much time as a cleric, and the cleric will be slightly better at it. However, the Druid is also buffing her companion at the same time, who has just as many (and at some levels even more) hit dice as the druid, the same BaB, and really more than enough tricks to make it work autonomously during combat.
Ever seen a Clericzilla unleash melee fury upon the infidels? Ever seen a Druidzilla do the same? Well; an animal companion becomes at least just as powerful a melee combatant as the Druidzilla; often even better at it than the druid.
Better still: The animal can start combat while the Druid is still using all her standard actions to cast buffs.

[Togath]

Ah, hadn't thought of the share spells ability

[Yitzi]

No; an Awakened animal cannot be a companion.

No; you see: A Druid's Animal Companion shares spells. A cleric, for instance, has a 3/4 BaB. So does an animal. So does a Druid. A druid can buff herself in as much time as a cleric, and the cleric will be slightly better at it. However, the Druid is also buffing her companion at the same time, who has just as many (and at some levels even more) hit dice as the druid, the same BaB, and really more than enough tricks to make it work autonomously during combat.

Doesn't having to keep the two of them within 5 feet of each other sort of severely limit their options, though?


Ever seen a Druidzilla do the same?

Actually, I haven't. I've heard about it, but never seen an actual example. Do you happen to know of one I could look at?

But just looking at the numbers, let's compare a level 20 druid's Tyrannosaurus companion (fully buffed) with a level 20 raging barbarian (no inherent bonuses, full enhancement bonuses):

-Strength: The barbarian (assuming 18 starting STR) has 18+5+6+8=37 STR, or a +13 modifier; the Tyrannosaurus has (between Bull's Strength and Animal Growth) 29+4+8=41 STR, or a +15 modifier.
-BAB: The Tyrannosaurus has +15 from 20 HD, the barbarian has +20.
-Attack bonus: The Tyrannosaurus has (assuming Greater Magic Fang) 15+15+5-4=+31, while the barbarian has (assuming a +5 weapon) +13+20+5=+38. This assumes no relevant feats on the part of the barbarian.
-Damage: The Tyrannosaurus has 4d6+22+5, or an average of 41. The barbarian has (assuming a greataxe) 1d12+19+5, or an average of 30.5. So a decent advantage, but not a huge one, and easily compensated for via Power Attack.
-Grapple: Here's the only place where the Tyrannosaurus has a clear advantage. The Tyrannosaurus has 15+15+12=42, while the barbarian only has 20+13=33.
DEX: The barbarian (assuming 14 starting DEX) has 14+2=16 DEX, or a +3 modifier (as he doesn't really have use for more); the Tyrannosaurus has 13+4-2=15 DEX, or a +2 modifier.
AC: The barbarian (assuming +5 mithral full plate and animated +5 heavy shield) has 10+13+7+3-2=31 AC, plus whatever deflection and natural armor bonuses (assume 5 of each), while the tyrannosaur has (assuming +5 mithral full plate barding) 10+13+9(natural armor)+2=34 AC, plus deflection and natural armor bonuses. So pretty close.
DR: The barbarian has DR 7/-, the Tyrannosaurus has DR 10/magic. Clear advantage for the barbarian.
CON: The barbarian (assuming 16 starting CON) has 16+6+8=30 CON, or a +10 modifier, while the tyrannosaur has 21+4+4=29 CON, or a +9 modifier. The barbarian has a larger hit die, though, for a minor advantage in hit points.

The tyrannosaur has improved grab and swallow whole, but the barbarian has (presumably) a far better feat selection, the ability to make multiple attacks per round (either from a full attack sequence or an AoO when the enemy moves away), and enough intelligence to do things like go around an enemy to avoid AoOs or do innovative things without someone having to spend a move action to tell him.

And of course the barbarian can drink a potion of enlarge person to improve somewhat.

So while either the animal companion or the buffs (probably the latter) probably needs some nerfing, it's nowhere near as broken as you indicate.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, hadn't thought of the share spells ability

Yes, Share Spells is crazy. There's plenty of powerful options. Healing is obvious, as well as buff spells like bear's endurance and bite of the werebear, but if you can get spells from other sources...it becomes a nightmare. Righteous Might, Transformation, Giantsize, Mirror Image, etc. A druid with Use Magic Device can turn himself and his animal companion into monsters.

Edit:
Doesn't keeping them within 5' limit their options somewhat

You would be right. But like every other thing that WotC used to balance and weaken classes in core, they published a supplement to fix it. Companion Spellbound (PHB II), allows you to share spells out to 30 ft and also changes any spell with a range of touch to close if it's targeting your companion. You can take it at 1st level and all my druids do.

Edit II:
The T-Rex is buffed by Bull's Strength

Your buff spells are way off. Druids use Bite of the Werebear (Spell Compendium) for +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +7 Natural Armor, and the Multiattack, Blind-Fight and Power Attack feats, for 1 round per level.

[Yitzi]

Yes, Share Spells is crazy. There's plenty of powerful options. Healing is obvious, as well as buff spells like bear's endurance and bite of the werebear, but if you can get spells from other sources...it becomes a nightmare. Righteous Might, Transformation, Giantsize, Mirror Image, etc. A druid with Use Magic Device can turn himself and his animal companion into monsters.

Well, bite of the werebear and giantsize aren't core, although using UMD to get stuff like Righteous Might could get nasty...


You would be right. But like every other thing that WotC used to balance and weaken classes in core, they published a supplement to fix it. Companion Spellbound (PHB II), allows you to share spells out to 30 ft and also changes any spell with a range of touch to close if it's targeting your companion. You can take it at 1st level and all my druids do.

I realized I forgot to specify that I meant this for core-only, so that'll solve that. Fixing it now.


Your buff spells are way off. Druids use Bite of the Werebear (Spell Compendium) for +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +7 Natural Armor, and the Multiattack, Blind-Fight and Power Attack feats, for 1 round per level.

Ok, so then it definitely needs to be limited to core-only.

Still needs a somewhat minor nerf simply because Link largely invalidates the greatest weakness of animals (that they're easy to outthink), I'll have to think about the best way to implement that.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wait, the PHB II isn't considered core? I was never sure about that. So is core simply the PHB, DMG, and MM then?

But yeah, even so. UMD allows the druid to really exploit that "Allows you to cast spells on it that don't affect animals" line of share spells. You don't need to cast Animal Growth when Enlarge Person works just as well (And affects you too). You can give your tyrannosaur mage armor and shield, as well as casting fly on it. Then yes, the barbarian wouldn't stand a chance.

[Seerow]

Really the fact that it's even remotely close, even when assuming core only should be hugely telling.


Why not make things easier and just drop the animal companion totally, or reduce its progression to ranger levels. There is no reason for a full caster to have something that can even remotely compare to a full melee as a class feature.

[Yitzi]

Wait, the PHB II isn't considered core? I was never sure about that. So is core simply the PHB, DMG, and MM then?

Yes. Core is PHB/DMG/MM. Core+ (for instance, what's used in the "Core Coliseum on the Wizards board, which I've found to have a great balance between optimization and care for balance) is Core plus SRD. "Not actually an optional variant" is Core, with the exception of non-PHB races for PCs and prestige classes.


But yeah, even so. UMD allows the druid to really exploit that "Allows you to cast spells on it that don't affect animals" line of share spells. You don't need to cast Animal Growth when Enlarge Person works just as well (And affects you too). You can give your tyrannosaur mage armor and shield, as well as casting fly on it. Then yes, the barbarian wouldn't stand a chance.

Well, he could get most of the same spells from the party wizard, but yes, limiting Share Spells to druid spells only will be necessary. (I would, however, allow a druid-based mystic theurge or similar types of classes to apply spells from both of the bases, just because those sorts of "2-caster composite" classes are so incredibly weak anyway.)

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, he could get most of the same spells from the party wizard, but yes, limiting Share Spells to druid spells only will be necessary. (I would, however, allow a druid-based mystic theurge or similar types of classes to apply spells from both of the bases, just because those sorts of "2-caster composite" classes are so incredibly weak anyway.)

Well, yes, but then the druid doesn't get the bonus from the spell as well. Besides, there are so many powerful wizard spells that only apply to "You" or "Personal", like mirror image, displacement, shield. Things that the wizard couldn't share (or wouldn't want to waste a spell per day on for your companion) you could use with just some gold. (Or the wizard could just scribe scrolls for you)

You want to talk about core-only, druid-only 20th level druid vs barbarian? A 20th level druid casts shapechange and shares it, and suddenly her Tyrannosaur is a dragon with a breath weapon or a beholder with its eye rays and it doesn't need to move 5 feet from you.

[Yitzi]

Really the fact that it's even remotely close, even when assuming core only should be hugely telling.

Yeah, that it does have to be weakened. But not extraordinarily so, as "remotely close" doesn't mean it's worth more than, say, an ally 3-4 levels lower (which is worth less than half a same-ECL character.)


Why not make things easier and just drop the animal companion totally, or reduce its progression to ranger levels.

Because I don't want to change too much, and the idea that a servant of nature gets an ally (even a giant T-rex at high levels) to help out makes sense.


There is no reason for a full caster to have something that can even remotely compare to a full melee as a class feature.

Depends how remote, and how good a full caster it is. Druids actually aren't all that impressive as casters...they're versatile, but lack both the offensive power of the wizard and the healing/curing/buffing power of the cleric.


You want to talk about core-only, druid-only 20th level druid vs barbarian? A 20th level druid casts shapechange

I did note that that some spells that are shared with wizard need fixing, and that's on the list in the link.

[Dryad]

Also: Don't forget that animals get feats, too.

[Yitzi]

Also: Don't forget that animals get feats, too.

True, but they tend not to be very smart when picking them, and there's no way to use Handle Animal to help the animal optimize its build.

[Togath]

I just thought of one thing that could help, in pathfinder all animal companions start with 1 HD(regardless of type), and can gain only up to 16HD, and looking at it the strongest(highest STR score) I see is the allosaurous, with 22str from level 7 to level 17 and 28str at level 18+, so doing something similar for DnD(or just using that part of pathfinder), could help reduce the power level of the companion while still having a T-Rex or Roc following you around.

[Seerow]

True, but they tend not to be very smart when picking them, and there's no way to use Handle Animal to help the animal optimize its build.

That's something you'll want to spell out then. Because every DM I know just lets the player pick the animal companion's feats from bonus HD, and several allow retraining the basic feats if they rear the animal.

[Yitzi]

Ok, I've put that into the "take 2" thread that I made for this topic.

[Roderick_BR]

Why? Wildshape is what it is. In fact, it's probably closer to wildshape as originally intended than the current system is.



I don't really know what weaker variant you're talking about (my PHB doesn't have it), nor do I have the animal cohort feat rules. Also, I'm not quite sure why you can't have both animal companion (as an NPC with its own mind, of course) and a mildly nerfed wildshape.



How is the druid 1.5 or 2 characters? He still can't take more than one standard action per round. So while he can heal (inferior to a cleric), blast (inferior to a wizard) or go melee (inferior to a barbarian), he still can't do all three at once. Essentially, he trades power for versatility...and that seems balanced to me.
Yes, I meant Player's 2, sorry.
And yes, he can blow the action economy AND do healing/blasting/AND meeling as good as a cleric or wizard, and way better than a barbarian.
Even if you'd rather not have the weaker versions (just use the Shifter for the earlier levels if you start Wildshaping at 1st level, as "real" wildshape only starts some levels later), I think that limiting the druid to one or another is still fine. Less book keeping too.

[Yitzi]

I just thought of one thing that could help, in pathfinder all animal companions start with 1 HD(regardless of type), and can gain only up to 16HD, and looking at it the strongest(highest STR score) I see is the allosaurous, with 22str from level 7 to level 17 and 28str at level 18+, so doing something similar for DnD(or just using that part of pathfinder), could help reduce the power level of the companion while still having a T-Rex or Roc following you around.

Limiting animal companions to 1HD is not going to help you do anything while having an 18HD T-Rex follow you around. And those extra 4 HD shouldn't make so much difference; the key point is that it's an animal, with animal intelligence (which is why an 18HD creature can be merely CL 8).


Yes, I meant Player's 2, sorry.
And yes, he can blow the action economy

Number of actions isn't all that matters; their quality does too.


AND do healing/blasting/AND meeling as good as a cleric or wizard

How can a druid heal anywhere near as well as a cleric, when his cure spells need a far higher level for the same effect?
How can he blast anywhere near as well as a wizard, when he only has a handful of 1d6/level spells and a wizard has a whole collection?

Oh, and I did make a new version of the fix; it's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207911).