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Psychonaut
2011-07-16, 11:04 PM
I was reading the Tired of all this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207531) thread, and a number of people mentioned that the Order of the Stick has committed several tactical blunders in their current encounter with the Linear Guild. So I was curious what they would do in the same set of circumstances.

1) Events between 787 and 796: What tactical blunders do you think the members of the OotS have committed since the LG showed up, and what would you do differently? What do you think Haley/V/Elan should have done when they realized that Thog was in the arena? What should they have done when Zz'dtri showed up? What should V have done when Yukyuk showed up? How should Roy have handled the fight with Thog? And so on. Basically, what would you do in each of these circumstances, given that all previous events had transpired the same way as they did in the comic? (Your answers may, of couse, result in events transpiring in a different way, but since we can't know what exactly would change, I prefer to stick to discussing each blunder as though all previous blunders had occurred.)

2) Starting at 796: Given their current situations, what do you think is the best next move for each OotS member?

Assumptions:
* V has a general set of all-purpose spells prepared, while Zz'dtri has prepared spells specifically with the idea in mind that he'd be facing another spellcaster today. He is also likely to have cast spells before the battle to augment his defenses. (Small aside: Is the proper word here "cast" or "casted"?)
* The other members of the LG are also probably specifically prepared to fight the OotS.
* The members of the OotS were genuinely surprised by the appearance of Thog, having believed that the core members of the LG died in Azure City. Thus, any strategy that requires collaboration between multiple members of the OotS would have to be planned after Thog's appearance. Whether or not they do so in Tarquin's presence is up to you, but keep in mind that none of the three members watching the arena fight trust him and that if they leave his presence, they'll still probably end up walking into Zz'dtri's/Yukyuk's ambush (since they were waiting in the arena lobby).
* The party has no way of instantly contacting Durkon, since they would have used that instead of sending Elan away if they did.
* The LG likely has some sort of nasty surprise planned for Durkon as well, so even if the party doesn't need his help, they should try to get word to him as soon as possible.
* Roy, being in a gladiatorial arena, has neither access to outside help and his usual inventory nor any easy escape route (and in any case, Thog has a greater movement rate).
* The party can't rely on outside assistance or unconfirmed possibilities. For instance, any plan that requires an audience member to throw Roy's sword back into the arena or for Roy to escape through the hole Thog just made in the wall - which may not actually lead anywhere - is inherently problematic. Exception: Belkar can probably rely on Ian to provide aid unless it would require him to risk going into battle. Though whether Belkar would do anything before Mr. Scruffy shows up to give him a good dose of inspiration is debatable.

All other implications about the party's lack of optimization from the rest of the comic also apply (see the Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219) thread for a good summary of the items and abilities known to be available to them). Any responses along the lines of "Well, first of all, I would never have made a single-class fighter" are irrelevant, as are any that require the party to have items that they haven't previously been shown to possess.

hoff
2011-07-16, 11:38 PM
Well I would recommend V to teleport away and prepare new spells or summon some monsters to help the fight. Both of these don't need spell resistance checks.

Haley shouldn't have failed her spot check and her fortitude check.

Roy shouldn't have gotten disarmed by thog. He is screwed.

I think Durkon is already dead, we know someone is going to die, why not a major character die off-screen? I would be totally anti-climatic, perfect surprise for Elan.

Well, I can't vouch for the linear guild strategy, but they were pretty darn lucky with their attack. Maybe telling Tarquin that they were expecting an attack from Nale would be best than to run off on their own.

PS: I know V barred schools.

Esprit15
2011-07-17, 12:14 AM
Well I would recommend V to teleport away and prepare new spells or summon some monsters to help the fight. Both of these don't need spell resistance checks.This would require eight hours of peace, and thus leaves hir team without hir (remember that V is just distracting Z at this point) for that long.


Haley shouldn't have failed her spot check and her fortitude check.Well she did. No choice in that.


Roy shouldn't have gotten disarmed by thog. He is screwed.
Again, not a choice.


I think Durkon is already dead, we know someone is going to die, why not a major character die off-screen? I would be totally anti-climatic, perfect surprise for Elan.
How is this even helpful advice?


Well, I can't vouch for the linear guild strategy, but they were pretty darn lucky with their attack. Maybe telling Tarquin that they were expecting an attack from Nale would be best than to run off on their own.
They weren't expecting them before. They thought that Nale was dead. By the time they figured it out both Haley and Elan didn't even trust Tarquin to hold his word, let alone help them with fighting Nale.
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Surprise!
2011-07-17, 04:53 AM
Teleportation is off the table as it is in V's banned school.

Can the planning stage happen a little earlier then Thog's arrival if the plan is not specifically to counter an LG attack?

Specifically I would have Roy coordinate with Belkar with the release of the dinosaur, Roy should want to stop to best friends from being forced to kill each other. (Even if they had antagonized him earlier) Knowing the situation better, more beasts could have been released and a high level fighter could subdue any guards in the way. Monsters running amok Thog's final fight is postponed. Giving Durkon more time to finish up whatever inane off panel activities he is up to. As well as possibly cause an impatient Nale to jump the gun under Tarquin's watch. Failing checks and walking into traps happen as normal, no tactic can save for that.

NYCharlie212
2011-07-17, 05:36 AM
Haley: Nothing she could have done differently. Failing Spot Checks/Fortitude saves were pure luck based on a roll of a dice. She made all the right decisions the moment she saw Thog. Tarquin couldn't be trusted anymore so they had to run and find Durkon.

V: Again, nothing to do about this. Hir made the right decisions but Z is build to beat V. When you're up against an opponent who is modeled entirely to destroy you there's not too much you can do.

Elan: I personally thought he did very well. Escaping Nale + Sabine like the way he did was impressive.

Belkar: He didn't screw up yet.

Roy: Here's the real first screw up occurred. He BEAT Thog. But he held back at the last moment even though he decided that Thog should be destroyed. He should have known better with his intelligence score.

Durkon: No comment yet as he either is compromised or he does not know LG is back yet.

------------

To summarize. Oots may have beaten LG with luck before, but this time was just LG planning ahead with a strategy specifically to beat Oots. It was a lost cause from the beginning.

The only way Oots can have a chance right now is if Belkar/Durkon turns the tide. Belkar/Durkon is the 2 most successful members vs their opposites at the moment (Durkon vs Leeky & Belkar vs Yik Yik). Both of these members were able to overcome their opposites even though Durkon had a bit of help by Thor.

martianmister
2011-07-17, 06:26 AM
Elan should have warned the order about LG's being alive. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html)

Bedinsis
2011-07-17, 06:54 AM
Honestly, the only action I can think of which I would have done differently would be to tell Tarquin that "We're leaving the fight because the fact that Thog's alive means that Nale probably is, which, given his track record, probably means that he's around here somewhere, waiting to kick our butts."
I don't know if they'd be willing to share so much information with Tarquin, however, but he appears to honestly don't care for Nale so I would trust him with that information.

Klear
2011-07-17, 07:28 AM
Elan should have warned the order about LG's being alive. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html)

Eland didn't think they were alive. Sure, it was obvious to him, but still he didn'T know. He works that way.

FujinAkari
2011-07-17, 08:01 AM
Roy: Here's the real first screw up occurred. He BEAT Thog. But he held back at the last moment even though he decided that Thog should be destroyed. He should have known better with his intelligence score.

This is a gladatorial match, the decision to kill Thog isn't Roy's, its Tarquin's.

If Roy -had- simply finished Thog off, he would have been the proud bearer of about thirty arrows within the next minute.

This, to me, is not sound tactics.

sims796
2011-07-17, 11:09 AM
And on another note, V honestly thought s/he was a match for Zz. Even with his spell resistance, s/he was more or less a match.

However, V, and for that matter, the viewer, didn't really expect Z to pump his spell resistance to a level that neutralizes V. In hindsight, it makes perfect sense that Z would do that (or did Nale order Z to do this), but at the moment, it seemed that they were more or less equal.

tl;dr: Z was ready for round two, V wasn't. As someone said in the other thread, they were trapped the moment they saw Thog.