Lessons Learned from the Fortune Cards

[Shatteredtower]

Being somewhat obsessive by nature, I decided to pick up the complete set of Fortune cards. After all, how much could eighty random cards cost, right?

Well, in my case, the final tally came to approximately four hundred dollars. The search for the last two cards cost me about half that.

No, I'm not looking for pity. I didn't spend what I couldn't afford, and I spent on my own choice. The spares are going out as starting decks for any new players that show up at Encounters, with some slight amount of tailoring to ensure some of the cards will work fairly well for a particular character's role. It's all getting put to good use, though I may eventually start handing out some of the cards that don't lend themselves well to Encounters play.

Anyway, there are several things I realized after the fact, some of which should have been obvious before I started this little quest, and now I'm going to share them with you.

First, even if I had possessed the freakish luck to acquire every single card without ever once picking up a duplicate. the entire set would have set me back $40, roughly the price of one of the hardcover books, give or take a few dollars either way. In truth, the cost would have been higher than that and duplication was unavoidable, as no pack of eight cards contains more than one rare card--and there are forty rare cards in the first set.

That's right: fully half of the deck consists of rare cards. Even with perfect luck in never buying a duplicate rare, it would have cost me $160 to track down the entire set of cards, and I'd have at least 240 duplicates for cards from the other half of the deck. Eh, well, there are days I like playing a controller with a deck full of Careful Aim, Painful Escape, and Self Preservation, but I can see why some players consider the cards something of a stupidity tax. I'm never going to find enough use of all of my Might Makes Right cards, for instance.

Still, at least the card sharps were being up front about the number of rares available to you from the start. The complete collection was posted on line, letting anyone that sat back and do the math work out how the minimum number of packs necessary to get one complete set. No, the real dirty play was in packing fewer Attack cards than should have been found in a proper random distribution.

Now it's possible I just had odd luck in that regard, but my own experience in that regard mirrors comments I've heard from others when it came to buying random pairs of packs that would give them only two Attack cards. The only difference is that I was working with a wider selection, one that should have confirmed more closely to the number of cards in the set. Still, with a ratio of 26:23:31 for Attack, Defense, and Tactics cards, why is it that the ratio for cards I own is closer to 2:4:5? I realize that there is a greater percentage of rares among the Attack cards (16 out of 26, compared to 9 out of 23 and 15 out of 31), but does that really account for such a wide discrepancy in the cards I've received?

Huh. I suppose it might. Nearly two thirds of the Attack cards are rares, compared to less than half of the larger number of Tactical cards and a slightly smaller percentage of the smaller number of Defense cards. Sliick, if perhaps a bit oily. Still, it only hurts people that try to pick up the whole set, right?

Well, maybe. Of the remaining ten attack cards, four (Careful Aim, Exposed Target, Loose Rocks, and Skulking Strike) are less useful to many defenders than other cards, without any of the rest offering any greater advantage to the defender than any other class. (In some cases, such as with Reckless Violence, other classes still might get more mileage out of the card.) Bad enough I'd have to spend at least twelve dollars to guarantee I'll have enough Attack cards for the smallest deck, but I'm not going to be happy if that's all I find in the three decks the day I'm playing a knight.

Incidentally, a look at the nine promotional cards offered to date continues the trend toward keeping Attack cards in short supply. Five of the cards are Tactical, two Defense, and two Attack. Furthermore, one of those Attack cards, as well as one of the Tactical cards, are rares, meaning they're generally only available to players that finish the season they're awarded with 60 reknown points. (Even if your DM decides to be generous with them and give them to those who came "close enough", there are fewer of those cards to go around than the ones awarded for 20 and 40 points.) The other Attack card is even harder to find. We'll see if this imbalance is addressed in later seasons.

This isn't to say my players haven't had fun with the cards, though the guy who opted to not use them has shown no sign of having less fun for doing without. I will continue to pick up the occasional pack from the new set, though without the goal of completing that deck. Even if I didn't find entertainment value in the options available, I'm interested in how much power creep we'll see in the later sets.

The last thing I've learned from all this is just how grateful I am for never having gotten into MtG, especially on a competitive level. No offense to those of you who enjoy that game; may you ever know joy in your pursuits. Still, the choice of dealing with speculators or having to waste money on extra cards you'll never use in pursuit of something to complete your latest masterpiece deck kind of sours the fun for me.

To conclude, one question. Whether or not you dislike the use of Fortune Cards in 4E D&D, whether you'd use them or not, are there any things you'd like to see changed about how the distribution of the cards, both in terms of how they're sold and what goes into each collection?

[NotScaryBats]

When I'm looking for a specific card in a CCG, I just buy it online or at a card shop. I remember the Pokemon card game had less grass energy in it's starting set than other types, so to play a grass deck I had to buy a few a la carte. Similar concept to those attack cards, I guess.

Having never played with these cards, I gotta know: do they scale with levels? Is there noticeable difference in power levels between your friend who didn't use cards versus those that did? Will someone like you with access to hundreds of cards make better decks than someone with fewer cards? Finally, do you like the cards -- do they add anything to the game?

[tcrudisi]

When I'm looking for a specific card in a CCG, I just buy it online or at a card shop. I remember the Pokemon card game had less grass energy in it's starting set than other types, so to play a grass deck I had to buy a few a la carte. Similar concept to those attack cards, I guess.

Having never played with these cards, I gotta know: do they scale with levels? Is there noticeable difference in power levels between your friend who didn't use cards versus those that did? Will someone like you with access to hundreds of cards make better decks than someone with fewer cards? Finally, do you like the cards -- do they add anything to the game?

I agree. I do the same thing when I'm looking for cards. I do own two magic decks. That's it. Both of them were purchased when I figured out what cards I wanted in them and then I bought each individual piece online. I wasn't even going to bother with boosters (plus the fact that many were so old that buying boosters is impossible).

Yes, the fortune cards scale with level. Things like, "reroll an attack roll" always scale with level. One like, "you have combat advantage for your next at-will attack" doesn't scale as well with level, but those are more the exception than the norm, I think.

There's not a noticeable power difference. My wife and I have played with cards only a few times (when the DM has spares) and those cards have not managed to make anyone else's characters superior to ours. I mean, I guess if you had 2 exactly equal characters except one was using a deck, you'd see a small power increase. It's really not much. It is enough to keep the deck interesting and desirable, just not enough to make it overshadow anyone else.

Absolutely, someone with 5000 cards will do better than someone with 12. That's just like with Magic. They'll be able to tailor cards to their specific character and that will be noticeable. But -- as I said in the previous paragraph, it's really only noticeable if you are paying very close attention to it. The person with a really nice deck is just far more likely to use a couple of their cards every combat.

I enjoy the cards, but not enough to purchase them. They bring just a little bit of excitement to the game. If I had the $800 Shattered mentioned, I'd purchase a set for myself and my wife. I don't, and there are other things I'd rather spend $800 on (student loans, ho!). (Also, prepositions are not words to end sentences with.)

[OracleofWuffing]

Whether or not you dislike the use of Fortune Cards in 4E D&D, whether you'd use them or not, are there any things you'd like to see changed about how the distribution of the cards, both in terms of how they're sold and what goes into each collection?
Super-idealist not-gonna-happen answer here, but I'd prefer if the cards and booster packs were separated by class role. For example, you have Set 1: Striker, Set 1: Defender, Set 1: Controller, and Set 1: Leader serieses, and there are some cards that are universal to all of those, but each subset has cards that actually play to the role. I really like getting that Look At Me! card when I'm ranged controlling from the back lines. :smallannoyed: Wouldn't hurt me to get rid of the non-fortune card fortune cards, too.

Also, I don't think that I'll ever play a Dependability card, and I'm going out on a limb here, but I think that the amount of people I will ever know who will ever play a Dependability card will be countable on one hand at most.


Having never played with these cards, I gotta know: do they scale with levels? Is there noticeable difference in power levels between your friend who didn't use cards versus those that did? Will someone like you with access to hundreds of cards make better decks than someone with fewer cards? Finally, do you like the cards -- do they add anything to the game?
For the most part, they do not have numerical values that scale with levels. There are a few exceptions, like Keep At It!, which lets you reroll a missed attack roll and take damage equal to your level, though. Other examples are +2 to at-will attack rolls, let an adjacent ally reroll a saving throw, or take a -2 to hit to get a +4 to damage.

Generally speaking, it could be considered better to actually have a small deck as opposed to a large deck, so that you semi-consistently get the cards you want. The advantage in having loads of cards is that you have more rare cards, and someone decided that rarity can sometimes be a way to balance out power. :smallannoyed: That said, there are still a few potent uncommon or common cards that are conditionally better than rare cards. For example, if you don't want to take damage for rerolling with Keep At It! (a rare card), You can get a +2 to at wills with Fair Fight (an uncommon card). Run a psionic or essentials character, and that's very close to a +2 whenever you draw the card.

As far as adding to the game? Ehhh... Your group's mileage may vary. There's no fluff in the cards other than their titles (some of which, like "Whoops!" or "Not in the Face!" may not flesh well with certain characters), so it slides down to, "I shift my move speed because I can" territory. It's nice to have the little bonuses, and I take 'em if I can, but I haven't yet seen them become the key point to an encounter.

[Kurald Galain]

Is there noticeable difference in power levels between your friend who didn't use cards versus those that did?
According to playtests, using a random deck does not give you substantial power boost, but using a preconstructed deck does. Note that several cards are mainly useful to classes that rely on making lots of basic attacks, i.e. the 4.4 classes.


Will someone like you with access to hundreds of cards make better decks than someone with fewer cards?
Yes, because the rare cards are clearly more powerful than the (un)commons, so more rares make for a stronger deck.


Finally, do you like the cards -- do they add anything to the game?
Not in my opinion. I have nothing against them, I will simply not be buying them. If I want random effects, I'll spend a few minutes compiling a table with 20-100 entries and have players roll on that every turn.

Some playtests report that the cards significantly slow down gameplay, simply by adding yet another decision to be made every turn (this mainly affects players who play slower than average). I think combat is slow enough already, thanks.

(edit) Incidentally, the first expansion set is now available. It named after the upcoming Neverwinter campaign guide, but is fluff-neutral. There are eighty new cards. At a first glance, the cards are somewhat more complex and less powerful than the first set.

[Shatteredtower]

When I'm looking for a specific card in a CCG, I just buy it online or at a card shop. I remember the Pokemon card game had less grass energy in it's starting set than other types, so to play a grass deck I had to buy a few a la carte. Similar concept to those attack cards, I guess.

Probably so. It's really not an issue for people who don't obsessively pursue completion, and not everything should cater to that drive, right?


Having never played with these cards, I gotta know: do they scale with levels?

Some do, but none in a major way. Most grant an unchanging benefit, such as combat advantage, not granting combat advantage, extra shifting, knocking enemies prone, a reroll, a static attack or damage modifier, or some other static conditional effect. A number of other cards grant benefits (mainly damage or temporary hit points; least one grants actual healing) that are determined by your level, though a few have drawbacks based on the same.

Typically, the bonuses will be measured as x + 1/2 your level, and the drawbacks tend to be measured as a number of hp equal to your level. Those
drawbacks tend to be insignificant to players in the lower heroic tier, but some higher level types may hesitate before risking 20-30 hp on a botched effort. (Others will consider it just par for the course at that level of play. YMMV.)


Is there noticeable difference in power levels between your friend who didn't use cards versus those that did?

Surprisingly, the guy who hasn't used the cards has tended to fare better than most of those that do. That may be because most of the monsters they've faced of late are weakest in their Will defense, which is what he targets more often than not, while the others tend to go after AC and Reflex most of the time. Of course, he's also scored pretty well against the few creatures that did have a stronger than average Will defense, so we can probably chalk some of this up to lucky attack rolls. (Damage rolls, on the other hand, tend to betray him every time.)

In any case, most of the cards that aid attack rolls only prove to be a factor 10% of the time, as that's how often a +2 bonus to attack makes itself felt. Cards that help out damage rolls haven't been much of a problem either, as those that don't so by granting combat advantage (something a character with sneak attack can usually get anyway) tend to come with some sort of drawback or requirement. Perhaps the most reliable of these is Crafty Strike, which give you a +4 bonus to damage you do when you hit an enemy granting you combat advantage, since you don't have to play the card until you hit a target.


Will someone like you with access to hundreds of cards make better decks than someone with fewer cards?

Yes and maybe. With only three packs of cards, chances are good that I may have to put at least one that's of little to no use to me into my deck of 10. With hundreds of cards, I can tailor that deck for a given class, race, or situation a lot more easily. That said, being able to have only one card in play at a time limits just how much of an edge I can get from that flexibility of choice, and it's difficult to set up circumstances in which your cards combine well with anyone else's cards. I've only seen that happen once.

Three decks is enough to get some benefit out of the deck. More just frees you up to try other arrangements, none of which seem adequately useful enough to have to track down a specific deck arrangement. Mind over Metal, a card that turns an attack against AC into one against Will, may be pretty nice, but would I load a Slayer deck down with four of them? Nah, I'd rather dabble in variety, thanks.


Finally, do you like the cards -- do they add anything to the game?

I've found them entertaining, and I'm the one running everything on the receiving end of them. Stave off Death, letting a player that drops to 0 hp drop to 1 hp at the cost of a healing surge, has thwarted me more than once in a situation that could easily have turned into a tpk otherwise. I've had players shut down my efforts at flanking them or otherwise gaining combat advantage. Last week, I denied the rogue any chance to gain combat advantage against a particular enemy...except that he pulled Full Speed Ahead!, granting him combat advantage on a charge attack. He then followed that up by spending an action point to knock his opponent into a pit, with said enemy thwarted in his attempt to stand up next turn when the halfling cleric produced And Stay Down!, forcing him to roll a saving throw on his attempt to stand up.

Sometimes, the players like being able to pull up that random element that lets them thumb their nose at me, even when there's a risk involved. Whether or not it works, we generally get a good laugh out of it, even if we're wincing at a player's poor luck. Optimization doesn't tend to be that entertaining, nor as flexible in some ways. Sometimes, the potential bonus on the table just encourages a player to take more of a risk, you know?

[NotScaryBats]

Hmm, okay thanks for the responses, everyone. I will be bringing a new player into my game this upcoming session, so probably won't be using any cards for that session, but I could easily see the fun in it.

I have a player that can be a 'balance nazi' in the "why don't I get that, if he can do it" kind of way, but seeing that the decks don't really make an optimization difference absolved the fear that he'd get upset by the cards.

Is there a spoiler list online anywhere?