Can such a war end? (Squirting epicness!)

[Adamaro]

There was a war. A dwarven/cleric kingdom vs. human/wizard kingdom.
300 lvl 20 dwarves backed up by good deities vs 100 lvl 20 wizard casters. Conflict exploded on material plane and was within an hour brought into others.

Here's the question:
- can any side win? (I think wizards win)
- can this war end? (With all wizards preparing Clones in pre-created demiplanes, while being liches and astral-projecting themselves around and using Mind blank, I think it would be impossible for either side to score a killing blow. Or clerics at least.)
- how would creatures with INT 50/ WIS 50 (which both casters can achieve and far exceed) react to such a situation?

BTW: The conflict is unavoidable. Wizards are firmly LE and dwarves really want to end them.

All epic-hating creatures please avoid this thread. I need it for setting development.

[Flickerdart]

That depends - how many of the 300 Dwarves are Clerics, and how invested are the gods in that side? If the answers are "not all of them" and "anything short of completely" then the Wizards will win quite rapidly. Solars are quite simply Clerics+.

[Kenneth]

The side with the dieties supporting it.. It does not matter how many solars or what not the 100 lvl 20 wizards can summon or how many clones they, ir even if they ar eliches.


Dieties trump mortals.


unless you are one of those guys that give dieities stats that a half opitmized level 15 wizard can kill ( i.e wizards of teh coast style)

[Doc Roc]

The side with the dieties supporting it.. It does not matter how many solars or what not the 100 lvl 20 wizards can summon or how many clones they, ir even if they ar eliches.


Dieties trump mortals.


unless you are one of those guys that give dieities stats that a half opitmized level 15 wizard can kill ( i.e wizards of teh coast style)

Oh dear me, deities save us from those who would stoop to play by the rules!

[Flickerdart]

The side with the dieties supporting it.. It does not matter how many solars or what not the 100 lvl 20 wizards can summon or how many clones they, ir even if they ar eliches.


Dieties trump mortals.


unless you are one of those guys that give dieities stats that a half opitmized level 15 wizard can kill ( i.e wizards of teh coast style)
Gods can't just start killing mortals all willy-nilly - otherwise the evil gods would have a field day. This is why it's important to determine exactly how involved the gods are - if they're powerful deities with Alter Reality, and the authority to spam it at the mortal world, then of course they win, but then the OP wouldn't be asking about it because it'd be a foregone conclusion.

[Flame of Anor]

Clerics can gate solars, too. Just saying.

[Doc Roc]

Gods can't just start killing mortals all willy-nilly - otherwise the evil gods would have a field day. This is why it's important to determine exactly how involved the gods are - if they're powerful deities with Alter Reality, and the authority to spam it at the mortal world, then of course they win, but then the OP wouldn't be asking about it because it'd be a foregone conclusion.

Thing is, not all deities pack AR, by the rules...

[Hazzardevil]

If a single wizard can turn himself into a vestige and bring himself out without a binder helping, then wizards win, purely because a wizard can turn himself into a vestige out of reach of the gods and create clones to attack the gods when he has enough to kill the gods they go out to kill the gods and clerics.
Job done.

[randomhero00]

Dieties trump mortals.


With that high of level, and that concentration of clerics, there is no way their god won't notice what's going and save their butts if they start to lose. Clerics win hands down.

If its about pure strategy and we assume the gods don't interfere then wizards win.


If a single wizard can turn himself into a vestige and bring himself out without a binder helping, then wizards win, purely because a wizard can turn himself into a vestige out of reach of the gods and create clones to attack the gods when he has enough to kill the gods they go out to kill the gods and clerics.
Job done.

Except gods see this coming and he dies a week before he can accomplish becoming a vestige.

[Hiro Protagonest]

There was a war. A dwarven/cleric kingdom vs. human/wizard kingdom.
300 lvl 20 dwarves backed up by good deities vs 100 lvl 20 wizard casters. Conflict exploded on material plane and was within an hour brought into others.

Here's the question:
- can any side win? (I think wizards win)
- can this war end? (With all wizards preparing Clones in pre-created demiplanes, while being liches and astral-projecting themselves around and using Mind blank, I think it would be impossible for either side to score a killing blow. Or clerics at least.)
- how would creatures with INT 50/ WIS 50 (which both casters can achieve and far exceed) react to such a situation?

BTW: The conflict is unavoidable. Wizards are firmly LE and dwarves really want to end them.

All epic-hating creatures please avoid this thread. I need it for setting development.

Wizards get astral projection, mind blank, gate, time stop, maze, overland flight etc.

Clerics get DMM, extra turning, miracle, dimensional anchor, air walk, banishment, etc.

Of course, if it comes down to using anti-magic fields, the clerics suddenly get a lot better with weapons, armor, hit points, and attack bonus. So if all the clerics used anti-magic fields, they could very well win.

[Altaria87]

Clerics can gate solars, too. Just saying.
Yeah, this. If there are as many Clerics as there are Wizards, it's still a staelmate, the Clerics have just as many Gated Solars as the Wizards do (possibly more, seeing as they're Solars and the Clerics are presumably Good - wanting to destroy the LE Wizards and all).

[Eldariel]

It depends on a lot. One important question: What deities do the Clerics serve? Are there Clerics of the God of Magic present? Are they all Initiates of Mystra? That would factor heavily into the equation.

Of course, the whole scenario is way too complex to solve in a vacuum, and way too tedious to solve in practice.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Dieties trump mortals.

Unless those mortals have Ice Assassin - then the mortals have Deities of their own, or even become them - apotheosis is fairly easy if you're willing.

[Kenneth]

Why is hardly any one paying attention to what the Op said.


its 300 lvl 20 dwarf clerics + dieties VS 100 lvl 20 human wizards.


honeslty this sort of battle will destroy the world, or at leats a huge part of it. at teh amount of magics that are unleashed. on both sides of the war.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why is hardly any one paying attention to what the Op said.


its 300 lvl 20 dwarf clerics + dieties VS 100 lvl 20 human wizards.


honeslty this sort of battle will destroy the world, or at leats a huge part of it. at teh amount of magics that are unleashed. on both sides of the war.

Where'd you get the idea that it was 300+deities? The OP just said 300 dwarves getting their powers from deities.

[Yukitsu]

Wizards at 20 can, with proper preparation defeat Gods. Specifically, it is possible for a wizard to pit equivalents with ice assassin against the true dieties to keep them at the least busy, and more likely, defeat them outright over time.

[Drelua]

The clerics would probably keep a few guys out of the fight everyday and have them prepare as many raise dead and resurrections as possible, which is one thing wizards can't do. The clerics outnumber the wizards 3:1, and they can bring back anyone who dies. I'd say they've got a pretty good chance because of that alone.

[Flickerdart]

Clerics can gate solars, too. Just saying.
Yes, but while Wizards get access to all Cleric spells through their Solars, the Cleric Solars can't get Wizard spells. And Wizard spells are a lot better.

[Eldariel]

Yes, but while Wizards get access to all Cleric spells through their Solars, the Cleric Solars can't get Wizard spells. And Wizard spells are a lot better.

There's always Black Ethergaunts tho.

[Flickerdart]

I guess, but the Ethergaunts have only 17th level casting, so their CL is lower. :smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

Nobody who hates epics can complain about this. Level 20 isn't epic yet.

Anyway, the Clerics can just spend lots of their crazy 20th level wealth on Nightsticks and use Divine Metamagic shenanigans.

Realistically, I think that the Wizards would Wish and the Clerics would pray for Miracles. With spells like that around anything could happen.

By the bye, what about all the high-level Chaotic people in the world? They might get involved too, just for fun. I know some high-level characters I've played or played with would get involved somehow or another if they could, so I doubt there's any world that's safe from people like them.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I'm going with the clerics. Both teams have Astral Projection and Gate. Miracle trumps Wish since it doesn't always cost XP. I'd wager breaking a Gate's control clause would be a perfectly valid Miracle option, and you only need to break it on the Solars directly summoned by the wizards to get all Solars in the chain (the Solars, with no control, would naturally side with the clerics, so the wizards can't use this option, and the Protective Aura makes conventional mind control incredibly difficult and unreliable). Clerics have superior resurrection capability, and arguably superior divinations. Plus, they have three times the numbers.

Having the direct assistance of deities only improves their lot. To what degree are they helped? Even if it's just "we're going to be more generous than the norm for the rules" that's huge, because of Commune and Miracle alone if nothing else. If it means taking indirect but active action, or sending powerful minions to support, it's even better ("What do you mean you can't Gate in another Solar?" "Well, actually, they're all already here..."). If it means actively taking the field, I'm going to go with complete curbstomp.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the conflict could be designed such that the wizards could win or it could be a never-ending stalemate. But clerics are my bet.

[Coidzor]

Well, aside from the scenario arising in the first place being extremely unlikely due to the intelligence and wisdom and high numbers of these pre-epic characters in such concentrated areas...

It pretty much is unsolvable without more information on the deities end of things and the cosmology at play.

[Adamaro]

Ok, some explanation:

300 LVL 20 clerics

vs

100 LVL 20 wizards

I think wizards could also "polymorph" into a god. So if gods took direct role, wizs could just sort of "emmulate" them.

As for gods:
Commited on side of clerics:
* Moradin, god of dwarves.
* Pelor, god of sun

Commited on side of wizards:
* Wee Jas, goddess of magic, death, vanity, and law
* Boccob, god of magic, arcane knowledge, balance and foresight

Other gods are unengaged. There are chaotic/neutral lvl 20 characters/casters around, too ... did not really think of their input. I guess some good wizards might join the clerics, some chaotic characters would sew chaos and some good might want to save patches of the world.

Gods' foresight ability plays an interesting part here. I guess Pelor and Moradin would be duking it out with WeeJas and Boccob a week prior to war.

[Coidzor]

Unless they're just that suicidal, I imagine more chaotic types that had lived that long and acquired that much power would look for a nice, quiet reality to go to for summer vacation, like Acapulco or something.

Kind of odd that Boccob would be in favor of a war that's going to do nothing but upset the balance though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Kind of odd that Boccob would be in favor of a war that's going to do nothing but upset the balance though.

Killing 100 wizards is really going to upset him.

[Coidzor]

Killing 100 wizards is really going to upset him.

100 level 20 wizards that are congregating in one place as a cabal of level 20s in a world where level 20s are common as mud? In a multiverse where this is common place enough to have a war between 300 level 20 clerics and 100 level 20 wizards?

Just a bit far-fetched that he'd care enough to blow up worlds.

Edit: Especially when this is nae so much killing 100 wizards as 100 wizards picking a fight with 300 clerics if this is the same scenario that was brought up months ago by Adamaro in about 3-4 threads.

And killing all 100 at once would be quite the feat considering if they were being played to their Int, they'd be unkillable without destroying the planes they're on and disparate except in guises that they lose nothing from the destruction thereof.

He's not known as The Uncaring for nothing.

[Madwand99]

Commited on side of wizards:
* Wee Jas, goddess of magic, death, vanity, and law
* Boccob, god of magic, arcane knowledge, balance and foresight


You may be house-ruling these deities in your campaign, but by their normal fluff, Boccob wouldn't care and wouldn't get involved, and Wee Jas hates the undead and would probably support the clerics. She is the goddess of natural death and nothing would anger her more than wizards defying this natural law to gain eternal life.

I will also note: divine magic is just as much "magic" as arcane magic, so if these gods main concern was keeping as much magic present in the world as possible, siding with the 300 clerics would be more logical. Plus, there is probably less of a concern with the clerics, as evil liches are more likely to be the power-mad sort who would love to backstab a god of magic and take their portfolio.

[Drelua]

You may be house-ruling these deities in your campaign, but by their normal fluff, Boccob wouldn't care and wouldn't get involved, and Wee Jas hates the undead and would probably support the clerics. She is the goddess of natural death and nothing would anger her more than wizards defying this natural law to gain eternal life.

I don't know where you got this idea of Wee Jas, but the PHB lists her followers as wizards, necromancers, and sorcerers. I'm pretty sure that necromancers wouldn't worship a god that hates the undead. I have to agree with you on everything else, though.

[Groverfield]

All depends on the tactics, and this does not mean "Wizards win 'cause they're smarter" because Wisdom is as key as Intelligence when it comes to this kind of thing. In all honesty though, I think that it's very one-sided favoring the clerics due to number advantage, and if some of the clerics are specialized in counterspelling, they have spells per day advantage too. Also it's a lot more likely that the clerics would be able abuse the wizards lack of good fortitude save, where the clerics bad reflex is made up for by them having the HP to take hits from fireballs (not by much, admittedly).

[Groverfield]

I don't know where you got this idea of Wee Jas, but the PHB lists her followers as wizards, necromancers, and sorcerers. I'm pretty sure that necromancers wouldn't worship a god that hates the undead. I have to agree with you on everything else, though.

Complete Champion, I think. I think the thing about liking necromancers means practitioners of necromancy, which isn't just raising undead. Most of the [Death] Save or Die tagged spells are necromancy, which is Wee Jas's domain, keeping the dead dead, and sometimes killing too.

[Starwulf]

Dieties trump mortals.






Except gods see this coming and he dies a week before he can accomplish becoming a vestige.

It depends on what world it's set in ^^ Because I have one name for you(and it's one I haven't even given any thought to in a long time, sad to say):

Raistlin Majere Seriously, if you go by the alternate history that his brother witnessed, he destroyed ALL of the gods, becoming all-powerful, and all-hungry, eventually turning in on himself. Hell, even AFTER Caramon stopped him from doing that, and Krynn was sent to an entirely different part of the universe due to the Chaos War, Raistlin still provided counsel to the gods, they had even considered making him the new god of the world, but of course, he, and they, realized that would probably be a bad idea, him with power = one bad idea. Granted, I guess you could argue the gods DID see it coming, but they still couldn't prevent it, at least in one time-line.

Ya know, now that I'm on that particular track of thinking: I wonder what level Raisltin would be. I Mean, not even Elminster had the power to challenge the gods. To hold off Arch-devils, sure, to hold part of Mystras Power, yes, but never to literally destroy every god in existence. Interesting thought! (for me anyways, probably not to anyone else, I know) :)

[Adamaro]

I thought gods of magic favor the wizards, but I guess it is true that both sides are magic users, so wizs may not get backing up prom WeeJas and Boccob.

@Coidzor
Yup, thsi thread, was already posted and discussed, but results were highly ... inconclusive. My safest bet so far is Exceptionally long war which, I guess ends with a new pact, because both sides just start to be completely bored by stalemate. And it is sort of impossible to destroy entire Material plane just to kill some wizs.

@Groverfield
lvl 20 spellcasters do not take damage from fireballs. Much stronger spells are cast around.

[Groverfield]

There are, I was just mentioning fireball 'cause it was all I could think that caps at 20d6 (even though it caps at 10d6, idk why I was thinking it capped at 20,) where the wizards would cap on damage unless PrC'ed out, which I was assuming that neither side PrC'ed.

[Drelua]

Complete Champion, I think. I think the thing about liking necromancers means practitioners of necromancy, which isn't just raising undead. Most of the [Death] Save or Die tagged spells are necromancy, which is Wee Jas's domain, keeping the dead dead, and sometimes killing too.

huh. You were right. I always thought of her as being a lot less like Anubis and a lot more like your typical god of death. I thought I remembered reading something about that somewhere, but I guess I just got that idea from her clerics not being allowed to be good. Which, according to the PHB, isn't true. I wonder where I got that idea from. I guess I sort of thought of her as the opposite of St. Cuthbert in a way. I just got a demerit point on my nerd card... :smallfrown:

[Groverfield]

It's okay... when quizzed, I couldn't remember the proper method of praying to Vecna, though I will give myself the excuse that I usually don't think about evil fluff unless it's a setting I'm making or DMing.

[tyckspoon]

If they have access to PrCs, some significant fraction of the Wizards are Incantatrixes and they're all immune to everything. The Clerics have DMM: Persist and are *also* all immune to everything. And neither of the two sides ever fight each other directly, they use Clones/Simulacrums/Gated/Bound outsiders as proxies. Eventually, they realize that this is really stupid, and agree to a representative duel of non-caster champions (equipped by the two sides- expect lots of Craft Contingencies- but by mutual agreement no direct intervention in their fight) or each side sends somebody to participate in a non-combat test of some kind. Each representative walks through a CL 40 Wall of Greater Dispel, gets Disjuncted a couple of times, and then they sit down and play a best 3-of-5 series of Scrabble or something. The winning side gets whatever they were warring about for the next 10 years, and then they meet and do it again.

Or, if you wanted it in a way that could actually be resolved in combat.. well, first you have to give up on trying to figure out what Wis/Int 50 beings would do, because what they'll do is realize trying to actually fight each other is utterly pointless. If they do meet in combat, the Wizards actually have an edge, because they can Disjunct and most of the Clerics can't. Which means the Wizards have a way of reliably removing the Cleric's protective suites, and the Clerics don't have a good counter unless you allow Miracle to do it.

[Drelua]

It's okay... when quizzed, I couldn't remember the proper method of praying to Vecna, though I will give myself the excuse that I usually don't think about evil fluff unless it's a setting I'm making or DMing.

There's a specific method of praying to Vecna? I mean, other than cutting of your own head.http://www.blindpanic.com/humor/vecna.htm They must have kept it a secret from me...

[Groverfield]

I heard something about the prayers having to be in active past tense...

[Eldariel]

It depends on what world it's set in ^^ Because I have one name for you(and it's one I haven't even given any thought to in a long time, sad to say):

Raistlin Majere Seriously, if you go by the alternate history that his brother witnessed, he destroyed ALL of the gods, becoming all-powerful, and all-hungry, eventually turning in on himself. Hell, even AFTER Caramon stopped him from doing that, and Krynn was sent to an entirely different part of the universe due to the Chaos War, Raistlin still provided counsel to the gods, they had even considered making him the new god of the world, but of course, he, and they, realized that would probably be a bad idea, him with power = one bad idea. Granted, I guess you could argue the gods DID see it coming, but they still couldn't prevent it, at least in one time-line.

Ya know, now that I'm on that particular track of thinking: I wonder what level Raisltin would be. I Mean, not even Elminster had the power to challenge the gods. To hold off Arch-devils, sure, to hold part of Mystras Power, yes, but never to literally destroy every god in existence. Interesting thought! (for me anyways, probably not to anyone else, I know) :)

Well, it depends. Raistlin defeated Takhisis by luring her out of the Abyss breaking the treaty of the gods which made it not just Raistlin, but also all the other gods vs. Takhisis with predictable results. And then he ascended. It wasn't so much that he was so ridiculously powerful but that he was very powerful and had the plan on how to capitalize on the situation.

[Ravens_cry]

The linguistic national socialist in me must ask, do you, the OP, really mean to say 'squirting' to in the topic title? Skirting might be more appropriate, considering it is a conflict between level 20 characters, the level before Epic levels truly starts.
Squirting, on the other hand, refers to something grapefruit halves and flowers attached to clowns lapels apparently do, among other things.

[Adamaro]

Oozing then? Emanating? Radiating? Sprouting? Gorging on?

And the way I see it, this is still inconclusive. Darn. I really hoped I would get a final answer.

[Killer Angel]

And the way I see it, this is still inconclusive. Darn. I really hoped I would get a final answer.

At this level of power and with so many variables involved, you can take any answer for good.
Basically: pick what do you like more for the setting, and work around that.

Anyway, my two cents:
The gods should reach a tie between themselves.
At that point, you'll have 100 20th lev. casters Vs 300 20th lev. casters. Clerics should win the war of attrition.

[Adamaro]

Clerics should win the war of attrition.
I'm taking this and ending here.

Tnx to all participants :)

[candycorn]

All depends on the tactics, and this does not mean "Wizards win 'cause they're smarter" because Wisdom is as key as Intelligence when it comes to this kind of thing. In all honesty though, I think that it's very one-sided favoring the clerics due to number advantage, and if some of the clerics are specialized in counterspelling, they have spells per day advantage too. Also it's a lot more likely that the clerics would be able abuse the wizards lack of good fortitude save, where the clerics bad reflex is made up for by them having the HP to take hits from fireballs (not by much, admittedly).

First: A level 20 wizard rocking an evocation spell will not be casting Fireball. More likely a Rod maximized empowered chain lightning (155 average damage), followed by a Rod quickened empowered chain lightning, using residual metamagic to add maximize (155 average damage).

Second: Wizards can gain access to Resurrection, through limited wish/wish (revivify, for example, after Revenance). They can also use solars for it.

Wizards gain mindrape, which can enlist enemies.

Clerics have the "must be approved by gods" clause on their miracle, but it can be assumed that miracles cast towards the end of destroying the wizards would generally be granted (any interpretation of 'backed by their gods' should allow this), at least for the non-xp cost variants.

All in all, I give the edge to the wizards, since they have access to magics that the clerics don't. Also, clerics have better defensive/buff spells, while wizards have better offensive/kill/control spells.

The one buff wizards get that very few clerics will is Shapechange. That's a huge boost.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'm taking this and ending here.

Tnx to all participants :)

I don't see why. Clerical magic is strong, but as pointed out several times within this thread, the Sorc/Wiz list is stronger. Just a few points I see that you don't seem to be considering:

Spells per Day - With the Focused Specialist ACF the Wizards have significantly more spells/day than the Clerics.
PrCs - the Wizards get better PrCs, from Incantatrix to Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil to Shadowcraft Mage (technically enter-able by Clerics, but that would limit what Domains they can take, so I doubt a significant number of them have).
Spells - Wizards have Disjunction (and, with appropriate cheese, CL 200+) while the Clerics, for the most part, do not. It only gets worse the more spells you look at.
Dirty Tricks - Yeah, yeah, the Clerics are spamming Holy Word - this doesn't matter because most of them were hit in the initial Locate City Bomb/Shadowcraft Cookie barrage. Those that didn't are dealing with Ice Assassins, Simulacra, Astral Projections, Gated Balors, Undead Hordes, etc. etc. and so forth. I don't think that three hundred Clerics are going to cut it in that scenario.


Just some food for thought.

[Telonius]

Just a couple Clerics spamming Miracle could severely alter the landscape:


Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.

Note the allies, plural. As long as a single Cleric with Miracle is left alive, they come back. This does cost 5000 XP.

The Clerics can also cast any spell of 7th level or lower, at no XP cost, through Miracle. With the right feats and some trivial Knowledge requirements, this means locate city bomb is also available to Clerics.

Wizards can only use Wish to get 6th-level or lower spells (5th if they're prohibited schools) and that costs a minimum of 5000 XP per shot. Wish can raise a single ally, not multiples, like Miracle.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Just a couple Clerics spamming Miracle could severely alter the landscape:



Note the allies, plural. As long as a single Cleric with Miracle is left alive, they come back. This does cost 5000 XP.

The Clerics can also cast any spell of 7th level or lower, at no XP cost, through Miracle. With the right feats and some trivial Knowledge requirements, this means locate city bomb is also available to Clerics.

Wizards can only use Wish to get 6th-level or lower spells (5th if they're prohibited schools) and that costs a minimum of 5000 XP per shot. Wish can raise a single ally, not multiples, like Miracle.

And the Wizards, with their plethora of Shadowcraft Mages, also have access to Miracle, so that's a wash. Besides, none of the Wizards are actually going to die unless the Clerics hunt them down, one by one, in their own private demiplanes.

[Telonius]

And the Wizards, with their plethora of Shadowcraft Mages, also have access to Miracle, so that's a wash. Besides, none of the Wizards are actually going to die unless the Clerics hunt them down, one by one, in their own private demiplanes.

If the 100 human Wizards have a plethora of Shadowcraft mages, they've abandoned Shapechange (one of their advantages) to all become Gnomes.

How are they turning Miracle into an Arcane spell, though? AFAIK, Killer Gnome will only allow mimicry of Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

[Taelas]

While I would without hesitation give the advantage to the Wizards if the numbers were equal, they are not.

The clerics have three times their number. Even if the Cleric spell list is weaker than the Sorcerer/Wizard list (and I acknowledge that it is), I do not see how 100 Wizards could beat 300 determined Clerics.

[Draken]

Give the clerics their due. Domain Draughts will give them every spell they could possibly want when they want. So it can be safely assumed that all the clerics will also have personal demiplanes, shapechange, astral projection and time stop if they feel like.

At this point, the clerics have the advantage of pure action economy. 300 > 100, gating in creatures is moot because both sides can do it (the clerics do get the advantage because THEY can summon Solars, which are better than the Pit Fiends avaiable to the LE wizards). The same applies to simulacrum. Ice Assassins are very costly from an EXP standpoint, as are many of the wizard's best tricks. While the clerics mostly dodge exp costs for their good spells.

Finally, the clerics do have an advantage in atrition because they get more free use of True Resurrection, while wizards have to stick to methods of revival that cost levels. So at the very least, each wizard that died comes back a bit weaker, while each cleric that died comes back at full and ready for more.

Of course, these are evil wizards, so if they can go into the clerical lands undetected they can unleash numerous Apocalypses from the Sky or mass Mindrapes, which will wear down at the clerics or at the very least their logistics. Miracle undoes everything, of course, and we go back to a stalemate.

When the OP decided to just go with however he wanted the conflict to end instead of trying to determine which side was sure to win, it was the best decision, because long, long ago, both sides had the power to not lose, even if they somehow don't have the power to win.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

If the 100 human Wizards have a plethora of Shadowcraft mages, they've abandoned Shapechange (one of their advantages) to all become Gnomes.

How are they turning Miracle into an Arcane spell, though? AFAIK, Killer Gnome will only allow mimicry of Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

There's a non-rascist adaptation of the class within the class itself, which I presume is in effect. Otherwise, yes, they all turn themselves into gnomes to get levels in ScM. However, I don't think that they necessarily must stay gnomes after they've received their ScM levels.

They turn Miracle into a Sorc/Wiz Evocation via Arcane Disciple or whatever that feat is called. Then they have free Miracles, and can get them out of first level slots (or cantrips, if they've somehow finagled the Gnome Wizard sub levels) with Residual Metamagic. Or insane Metamagic reducers.

[Telonius]

Lawful Evil deities with Luck domain are ... Kurtulmak.

Undone by Kobolds once again! :smallfurious:

[AppleChips]

First: A level 20 wizard rocking an evocation spell will not be casting Fireball. More likely a Rod maximized empowered chain lightning (155 average damage), followed by a Rod quickened empowered chain lightning, using residual metamagic to add maximize (155 average damage).

The Clerics will all have DMM persisted all the elemental resistances. Also, although Wizards could gain access to Miracle through shadowcraft, Miracle is fulfilled through the gods, and if no gods are siding with the wizards, it would be ineffective.

[Premier]

Question: if this is supposed to be an all-out war (and not, say, a high-stakes tournament or something of the sort), then where are all the non-20th level people? I mean, if these kingdoms can set out hundreds of 20th level combatants, or just one hundred 20th level wizards, then where are all those thousands of 10th-19th level characters of all types who logically must also be living in these kingdoms? Where are the tens of thousands of 1st-3rd level soldiers, militias, mercenary companies?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

The Clerics will all have DMM persisted all the elemental resistances. Also, although Wizards could gain access to Miracle through shadowcraft, Miracle is fulfilled through the gods, and if no gods are siding with the wizards, it would be ineffective.

Actually, first, there are Gods on the side of the Wizards, and second, Shadow Miracles are illusions, requiring no Divine intervention. And they must be at least 100% real, as you need a 10th level slot to cast them out of. So the Wizard/ScMs are pulling Miracles out of nothing, with no XP costs (for any use of the spell, as it uses Silent Image's XP cost), and they are quite probably more real than reality itself.

[OracleofWuffing]

It may be true that deities trump mortals, but at level 20, mortality might not be a safe assumption of your targets.

...That said, I'm going for the comedy option of 200 level 20 artificiers. :smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

Question: if this is supposed to be an all-out war (and not, say, a high-stakes tournament or something of the sort), then where are all the non-20th level people? I mean, if these kingdoms can set out hundreds of 20th level combatants, or just one hundred 20th level wizards, then where are all those thousands of 10th-19th level characters of all types who logically must also be living in these kingdoms? Where are the tens of thousands of 1st-3rd level soldiers, militias, mercenary companies?

Same place they are when the aliens fight the predators: whoever wins, they probably lose. They're busy finding the deepest darkest hole they can find, hiding in it, and hoping for the best.

[Slipperychicken]

Didn't we already have this debate a few months ago? (shocking, I know) But the terms then were something like a war between a country with 100 Wizards and a more fortified country of 300 clerics... I remember the accepted result then was total devastation of wizard country in the short run, with wizards hiding in their impregnable demiplanes to do hit-and-run scry-n-die till the clerics were gone.

[Socratov]

you just described this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_force_paradox) in DnD terms. The only way to solve it is by fiat...

[Adamaro]

@Socratov
Actually, no. These numbers are quite finite and in the end small numerical differences (IMO mainly INT and WIS stats would churn out a result. IMO clerics would win (after reading this and older thread), but be never safe from scry-and-die wiz boogiemen striking from their mediplanes. But eventually, even these rogue wizs would probably be tracked down and killed.

[Killer Angel]

IMO clerics would win (after reading this and older thread), but be never safe from scry-and-die wiz boogiemen striking from their mediplanes.

(bolded by me) I'm not so sure about this "weakness": divination spells can give 'em good warnings.

[Adamaro]

@Killer Angel
I assume everyone just scrys untill they cry and their 50+ INT brains burn out. :smallbiggrin:

[HunterOfJello]

It may be true that deities trump mortals, but at level 20, mortality might not be a safe assumption of your targets.

...That said, I'm going for the comedy option of 200 level 20 artificiers. :smallbiggrin:


The 200 level 20 artificers obviously win this fight when they show up in their flying magic-resistant super fortress built with every possible option from the stronghold builder's guidebook.

[Flickerdart]

The 200 level 20 artificers obviously win this fight when they show up in their flying magic-resistant super fortress built with every possible option from the stronghold builder's guidebook.
You mean The Cube? That's cheap enough for the other sides to afford.

[Flame of Anor]

You mean The Cube? That's cheap enough for the other sides to afford.

Yeah, but the artificers can make them without money or XP as a free action.