What do you think when you hear "paladin"?

[WarKitty]

I'm looking to build a character that sort of screams "paladin" (NOT the Miko kind), without actually necessarily using paladin levels. So I was wondering - for you 3.5/PF types, what traits do you consider as the quintessential paladin traits?

(Before anyone complains about metagaming, the character herself has reason to convince herself and everyone else that she is a "regular paladin," despite not being quite standard. That and some of my fellow players metagame, and I want to surprise them.)

[Coidzor]

Cleric, take the war or metal domains in order to have a suitably paladinny weapon proficiency. Or dip a PrC that gives weapon proficiencies like Knight of the Raven.

No idea baout how to do the thing with the mounty thing because of the smmoning though. Translation: No idea how to get a mount that'll fool them, what with the Paladin needing to summon his mount every day and then dismiss it.

[WarKitty]

Cleric, take the war or metal domains in order to have a suitably paladinny weapon proficiency. Or dip a PrC that gives weapon proficiencies like Knight of the Raven.

No idea baout how to do the thing with the mounty thing because of the smmoning though.

Clarification: I already have something of a build in mind. It's more what traits would you consider most paladins to have (which I'll discuss later). So I guess you're saying heavy weapon (I'm guessing heavy armor too) + mount?

[Sucrose]

Full armor

Shielding against enemy spellcasting/magical effects, particularly necromancy or enchantment.

Physical toughness

Some sort of radiant 'smiting' effect that can enhance melee attacks

Tendency toward either swords or lances, frequently with shields.

Really, a reflavored Duskblade channeling Shocking Grasp (with a suit of Mithral Full Plate) could fit pretty well, as could a Crusader. If you want a horse, I'd suggest the Wild Cohort feat.

Edit: Ninja'd by thread creator.

[Calliope121]

I think of honor and never deserting and holy and goodness and all that stuff. Ooh, and I also think of unicorns

[Coidzor]

^: Unicorns, eh? So you think of racism and sexism when you think of Paladins? :smallamused: (Protip: Unicorns are unsavory fellows)

Problem with Wild Cohort is that while it's going to be pretty sweet, it's also going to be permanent without some extra shenanigans, which is bad for fooling the rest of the party, because they'll be like, hey, that horse is still here and it's been several hours now...


Clarification: I already have something of a build in mind. It's more what traits would you consider most paladins to have (which I'll discuss later). So I guess you're saying heavy weapon (I'm guessing heavy armor too) + mount?

Heavy armor is generally assumed to be part of the whole paladin schtick, yes.

And the whole mount thing as well, though I suppose you could get around that by claiming to use the charging smite variant...

As far as personality traits go... Well, they probably borrow a lot from the whole Duty thing that Erfworld has going on.

[Ravens_cry]

Epic Slight of Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm) check?

[Sucrose]

Problem with Wild Cohort is that while it's going to be pretty sweet, it's also going to be permanent without some extra shenanigans, which is bad for fooling the rest of the party, because they'll be like, hey, that horse is still here and it's been several hours now...

Eh, better than basically anything else that I can think of, short of Planar Binding. Summons that last for rounds/level don't seem very close, and Phantom Steed is way faster than an equivalent celestial horse.

[TheRinni]

Clarification: I already have something of a build in mind. It's more what traits would you consider most paladins to have (which I'll discuss later). So I guess you're saying heavy weapon (I'm guessing heavy armor too) + mount?

Hrm... as far as personality traits go, I think of the typical Lawful Good douche. It sounds bad, but I always imagine Paladins as self righteous, smug, pious *******s.

[Coidzor]

Eh, better than basically anything else that I can think of, short of Planar Binding. Summons that last for rounds/level don't seem very close, and Phantom Steed is way faster than an equivalent celestial horse.

Indeed, best of a bad lot, really.

[Xefas]

I definitely expect them to have leadership qualities. They don't have to be bossy, but they should certainly be confident. They don't have to interrupt everyone with "This is how we should it bluh bluh", but when no one has a plan, or no one can make the hard decision, the paladin should be right there to rally the group. They should lead by example, and "Do as I say, not as I do" should be the furthest advice from their mind.

edit: This may just be because my first encounter with the paladin class was in 2nd ed, where paladins were required to have at least 17 charisma. I guess in 3rd ed, you could have a theoretical 6 Cha paladin who wouldn't be particularly confident and disposed towards leadership.

[Eldariel]

Knight-Errant solely living the service of his cause (deity, virtue, whatever). That's pretty much all. Strong in spirit and body, serene and wise, adept in arms. On the outside, all the usual knight-equipment present in classical literature (full mail, mount, melee weapon and lance).

[Coidzor]

Are you familiar with the Avatar from the Ultima series and what s/he should be in theory?

Lop off a bit of the virtues here and there and you've basically got a Paladin.

...Sans deathcannon (http://lparchive.org/Ultima-4-5-and-6/)anyway..

[*.*.*.*]

Divine Grace.....



It's the only class feature I like~

[WarKitty]

Ok here's a character description so far, for your perusal:

A woman appearing to be around 30 approaches you. She carries a coiled chain whip at her right side, and a longbow and arrows slung across her back. The woman wears a plain blouse and riding skirt, made from the same cotton as the local peasants wear. You can see a glimpse of chain rising up past the neckline of the blouse. A large silver holy symbol hangs around her neck. Though not particularly attractive, the woman seems to project an air of confidence.

I want to make it at least half a session before they figure out my holy warrior doesn't have a single level in the paladin class.

[Dr.Epic]

This:

http://merovelasco.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/vash.jpg

Except more medieval, has a sword in place of gun and doesn't follow the whole "no killing" thing so strictly.

[GoatBoy]

Lawful Good Crusader from Tome of Battle could be a Paladin in all but name.

Or be a Chameleon and just convince people that you're a Paladin.

Paladin simply suggests the quintessential "knight in shining armour." Saves those in need, great skill in arms and armour, selfless, devoted to destroying evil.

If you're out to convince players who know the system, I think you'd be best off with a martially-inclined Cleric. If your DM is in on the ruse, you could pull something such as a Smiting Spell'd cure spell and say it's your "Smite Evil" ability, or say you are "Laying Hands" on the allied target of your heals.

[Sucrose]

Ok here's a character description so far, for your perusal:

A woman appearing to be around 30 approaches you. She carries a coiled chain whip at her right side, and a longbow and arrows slung across her back. The woman wears a plain blouse and riding skirt, made from the same cotton as the local peasants wear. You can see a glimpse of chain rising up past the neckline of the blouse. A large silver holy symbol hangs around her neck. Though not particularly attractive, the woman seems to project an air of confidence.

I want to make it at least half a session before they figure out my holy warrior doesn't have a single level in the paladin class.

I don't think that a chain shirt will work well for convincing them that you're a Paladin, nor an unknightly main weapon such as the chain whip. That description won't actively work against you, but I don't think it'll help much either. The only thing that made me think 'Paladin' in that description is your character's air of confidence.

[Coidzor]

Ok here's a character description so far, for your perusal:

A woman appearing to be around 30 approaches you. She carries a coiled chain whip at her right side, and a longbow and arrows slung across her back. The woman wears a plain blouse and riding skirt, made from the same cotton as the local peasants wear. You can see a glimpse of chain rising up past the neckline of the blouse. A large silver holy symbol hangs around her neck. Though not particularly attractive, the woman seems to project an air of confidence.

I want to make it at least half a session before they figure out my holy warrior doesn't have a single level in the paladin class.

Doesn't really look like a Paladin, so... I think they'd assume she was emulating an elven cleric from that description.

Probably more likely to get jokes about wanting to be Simon Belmont for the chain whip than for people to think she was a paladin based upon looks, really.

[Dr.Epic]

Also this:

http://avatar-thelastairbender.edogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/aang.jpg

Wait, that's too much monk. Throw some armor and swords on that.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101201030430/avatar/images/thumb/0/06/Armor.png/250px-Armor.png

There, much better.

[WarKitty]

I'm kind of stuck with a dex-based character, unfortunately. So, no armor heavier than light, and no non-finessable weapons. Other stuff can be worked around, but not that bit.

And ok, call it a spiked chain (which it is), not a chain whip.

[Coidzor]

Given yourself a bit of an uphill slog then. :/

[WarKitty]

To be fair, I'm trying to convince metagamers, not roleplayers. There's nothing that prevents a dex-based paladin any more than a dex-based fighter. I'm more trying to make our metagamers think "Huh, must be doing a dex-based paladin build."

Would it help if she introduced herself as a holy warrior or somesuch?

[Coidzor]

To be fair, I'm trying to convince metagamers, not roleplayers. There's nothing that prevents a dex-based paladin any more than a dex-based fighter. I'm more trying to make our metagamers think "Huh, must be doing a dex-based paladin build."

Would it help if she introduced herself as a holy warrior or somesuch?

If you're trying to convince metagamers then a dex-based Paladin is much increasing the MAD of the Paladin, and thus a curiosity and aberration that would be... unlikely to be amongst their first conclusions. And so you still have a slog to go through to get there.

And again, the whole elven-esque cleric angle... It'll only help if you already know how to play and lead the expectations of the group you're with.

[WarKitty]

If you're trying to convince metagamers then a dex-based Paladin is much increasing the MAD of the Paladin, and thus a curiosity and aberration that would be... unlikely to be amongst their first conclusions. And so you still have a slog to go through to get there.

And again, the whole elven-esque cleric angle... It'll only help if you already know how to play and lead the expectations of the group you're with.

Metagamer =/= munchkin, in this case. I am by far the closest thing to a munchkin in the group. And our worst metagamer can't put together a good build to save his life - he's still convinced that his human archery ranger is far superior to my anthrobat druid character because he has more hit points.

[Optimator]

Bubble hearth?

Seriously though, I think of armor, holy light, some magic, bravery and sacrifice, leadership...

[Sucrose]

Metagamer =/= munchkin, in this case. I am by far the closest thing to a munchkin in the group. And our worst metagamer can't put together a good build to save his life - he's still convinced that his human archery ranger is far superior to my anthrobat druid character because he has more hit points.

Recognizing MAD doesn't really take any charop chops. But if they don't think in those terms, this may be possible.

Any way that you can demonstrate something similar to one of the more iconic Paladin abilities? Maybe a hidden wand of CLW, to mimic Lay On Hands toward some injured NPC as part of your introduction? Scroll of Mind Blank, so when the DM asks for a Will save vs. fear effects, you don't need to roll?

Past that, I don't really see how you could pull this off without outright lying.

Dex-based Paladins are not really common, or iconic.

None of their class features (save perhaps the encounter-long Smite in Pathfinder) really lend themselves to the use of Dexterity, and, as you've noted, full plate armor, which is really iconic for a 'knight-in-shining-armor' class, isn't as useful for Dex-based characters as it could be.

Edit: One thing that might make them think of a Paladin is if you go for a Church Militant look, particularly one based around the aesthetic of Solomon Kane. Black and white, buckled hat, puritanical look.

[Coidzor]

Metagamer =/= munchkin, in this case. I am by far the closest thing to a munchkin in the group.

Ok, I think you're going to need to define what you mean by metagamer and munchkin here, since you don't seem to be using the standard meanings.

And rather than calling those who are trying to give you the feedback you asked for munchkins and dismissing them, you should probably consider that maybe you need to give a bit more detail about the people you're trying to pull one over on, since they're the only uncontrolled for variable here other than your definitions and connotations.

[WarKitty]

Recognizing MAD doesn't really take any charop chops. But if they don't think in those terms, this may be possible.

Any way that you can demonstrate something similar to one of the more iconic Paladin abilities? Maybe a hidden wand of CLW, to mimic Lay On Hands toward some injured NPC as part of your introduction? Scroll of Mind Blank, so when the DM asks for a Will save vs. fear effects, you don't need to roll?

Past that, I don't really see how you could pull this off without outright lying.

Dex-based Paladins are not really common, or iconic.

None of their class features (save perhaps the encounter-long Smite in Pathfinder) really lend themselves to the use of Dexterity, and, as you've noted, full plate armor, which is really iconic for a 'knight-in-shining-armor' class, isn't as useful for Dex-based characters as it could be.

The build involves a few bard levels mixed with fighter, so CLW as a spell known is easy. Possibly a magic item (probably the holy symbol) that casts detect evil, if I can afford it. Online game, so they can't see what I'm rolling anyway.

And I'm perfectly willing to introduce myself, in-game, as a paladin or knight or somesuch. I don't particularly consider that lying - in the game world, the character considers herself to be and is recognized as a holy warrior, albeit an unusual one.

Perhaps I could even call in a bit of lampshading here - the character herself might be aware that she doesn't use a sword and full plate like most paladins, and might comment that she's more agile than strong and prefers to make use of that.

For Coid:
A metagamer is someone who uses or attempts to use out of character knowledge (such as knowledge of specific classes) for in-game benefit. A munchkin is someone who attempts to make their character as powerful as possible. While there's a fair overlap, the two aren't always the same - although in the one case, it may just be that the players are bad munchkins. Metagamer and munchkin describe certain ways a player approaches the game, not whether they're any good at it.

Edit: Erm, only person I was calling a munchkin was myself. I am a hopeless optimizer, which is part of why I'm setting myself so many challenges - it brings my characters down to where they fit in better.

[Coidzor]

So how, by those definitions, does recognizing that Paladin's MAD does not lend themselves towards Dex Builds and thus not jumping to that conclusion immediately mean one is a munchkin? All that means is that one is aware of the game mechanics and the metagame that drives Paladins away from dexterity.

[WarKitty]

So how, by those definitions, does recognizing that Paladin's MAD does not lend themselves towards Dex Builds and thus not jumping to that conclusion immediately mean one is a munchkin? All that means is that one is aware of the game mechanics and the metagame that drives Paladins away from dexterity.

Good point. Ok, I pretty much just meant they're bad metagamers.

(More group info coming as I can - I don't have all the details right now.)

[nyarlathotep]

just a point usually what defines a munchkin rather than an optimizer or min/maxer is that munchkins cheat by purposely missreading or bending rules.

as for the OP, pretty much this.

http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss175/Nyarlathotep1/prime.jpg

[ffone]

When I hear the word 'paladin' I think 'archetype that many DnDers like to project their frustrations with and stereotypes of certain real-life religions, cultures, and political parties onto, by portraying as a drooling-idiot fascist zealout who's easy to make fun of'.

[noparlpf]

A Paladin is a holy knight, pretty much. The PHB Paladin is the "Paladin of Honor". They're all for good, righteousness, valour, honour, and some other suitably British-sounding words. There's that whole hating undead and smiting evil thing they have going on too.

The whole "Lawful Good" thing often becomes a problem. My interpretation of the Paladin's Code of Conduct is that they do the right thing and firmly adhere to their beliefs. My DM's interpretation last time I played a Paladin was that LG meant following the local laws. I ended up multiclassing into Paladin of Freedom (Unearthed Arcana) and turning against the government (which was raising a new god of death and pain).

[Amnestic]

What do you think when you hear "paladin"?

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/913/1079438-keldorn_super.jpg

Keldorn Firecam. Paladin, crusader for good, challenged by his code and most decidedly not an arse about it. Not like Anomen. Urgh.

[Honest Tiefling]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5HZOemIcys is actually what I think of when I hear paladin. That's not helpful, but I do like the video.

I also think Keldorn is a good example, as Amnestic said. He's confident in his abilities and in himself, without going off the deep end and developing a holier then thou attitude or being absolutely convinced he is the only one with a moral compass. There are some things he will not do, but he also neither shoves his ego down your throat by claiming to be uber good. He sacrifices much for his cause.

Anomen is a great example of what to avoid. He's egotisical and the only way to get him to like you is to pander to his over inflated ego. He makes bizarre choices made not by the head in the helm, but the one in the codpiece. His best lines, in my opinion, is when Yoshimo is making fun of him. (And is why I love Yoshimo. Oh, why couldn't you be the love interest instead?)

Now, for your character. First, describe the holy symbol here. Who is it a holy symbol of? I am betting that most paladins don't hide their faith. Show it off!

Most of your description is about her clothes. So people will focus on it. Mention them, but also mention other things. How does she hold herself? Does she walk softly to avoid attention, or is she proud, and walks like a veteran warrior? What is her expression? Is she paranoid and wary, or gentle and serene?

You also want to shout I AM A HOLY WARRIOR OF HOLY AND AWESOME. So add in more holy. Maybe mention that her clothes are dyed with simple dyes in dull colors of your god's holy colors. Or that the holy symbol is on her weaponry.

One thing that might do, if your DM is willing, is have the eyes be symbols too. Like, if she's a paladin of Bahamut, her eyes are silver. Does nothing mechanically, but depending on the world might shove the holy down their throats more.

[noparlpf]

One thing that might do, if your DM is willing, is have the eyes be symbols too. Like, if she's a paladin of Bahamut, her eyes are silver. Does nothing mechanically, but depending on the world might shove the holy down their throats more.

Last Paladin I played was (of course) a Paladin of Heironeous. I was just picturing fists holding lightning bolts for eyes.

[WarKitty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5HZOemIcys is actually what I think of when I hear paladin. That's not helpful, but I do like the video.

I also think Keldorn is a good example, as Amnestic said. He's confident in his abilities and in himself, without going off the deep end and developing a holier then thou attitude or being absolutely convinced he is the only one with a moral compass. There are some things he will not do, but he also neither shoves his ego down your throat by claiming to be uber good. He sacrifices much for his cause.

Anomen is a great example of what to avoid. He's egotisical and the only way to get him to like you is to pander to his over inflated ego. He makes bizarre choices made not by the head in the helm, but the one in the codpiece. His best lines, in my opinion, is when Yoshimo is making fun of him. (And is why I love Yoshimo. Oh, why couldn't you be the love interest instead?)

Now, for your character. First, describe the holy symbol here. Who is it a holy symbol of? I am betting that most paladins don't hide their faith. Show it off!

Most of your description is about her clothes. So people will focus on it. Mention them, but also mention other things. How does she hold herself? Does she walk softly to avoid attention, or is she proud, and walks like a veteran warrior? What is her expression? Is she paranoid and wary, or gentle and serene?

You also want to shout I AM A HOLY WARRIOR OF HOLY AND AWESOME. So add in more holy. Maybe mention that her clothes are dyed with simple dyes in dull colors of your god's holy colors. Or that the holy symbol is on her weaponry.

One thing that might do, if your DM is willing, is have the eyes be symbols too. Like, if she's a paladin of Bahamut, her eyes are silver. Does nothing mechanically, but depending on the world might shove the holy down their throats more.

Yeah I'd planned some more specific stuff, I just haven't got all the setting information that I'd need to select a deity and fill in some of those details. As for other stuff...I had planned on having a large port wine stain across one side of her face - pathfinder has a trait that turns that into a functioning holy symbol. Would have to be something not obviously recognizable to an outsider though.

[Honest Tiefling]

Still, describe her build, and stance. If you focus in on muscles, you send out hints that your PC is a melee build. She might be more lean then bulky, but it might edge the others away from cleric.

I don't play pathfinder, what is the extent of that trait? Like, can you do different colors with it?

[WarKitty]

Still, describe her build, and stance. If you focus in on muscles, you send out hints that your PC is a melee build. She might be more lean then bulky, but it might edge the others away from cleric.

I don't play pathfinder, what is the extent of that trait? Like, can you do different colors with it?

The traits really focus on the in-game effects more than the appearance. I'd been planning a port-wine stain.

And there will be a picture. My characters always have pictures.

[Starbuck_II]

How about this picture?

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/103/a/6/gina___gyromancer_by_kunkka-d3dwkkd.jpg

[WarKitty]

How about this picture?

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/103/a/6/gina___gyromancer_by_kunkka-d3dwkkd.jpg


That is NOT a holy warrior.

And I forgot, I won't be able to do a picture because of game rules.

[Kalirren]

A woman appearing to be around 30 approaches you. She carries a coiled chain whip at her right side, and a longbow and arrows slung across her back. The woman wears a plain blouse and riding skirt, made from the same cotton as the local peasants wear. You can see a glimpse of chain rising up past the neckline of the blouse. A large silver holy symbol hangs around her neck. Though not particularly attractive, the woman seems to project an air of confidence.

I want to make it at least half a session before they figure out my holy warrior doesn't have a single level in the paladin class.

For me, paladin = warrior + religious devotion + nobility. You've got the first two but not so much the third. If the first time someone refers to your character officially they say, "Your/Her Ladyship," if not a higher title, I'd probably assume she was a paladin whatever she looked like. Certainly she'd be paladin enough for me for the purposes of how I would chose to roleplay my characters' reactions and expectations of her.

So to your physical description I might add her personal coat of arms, or her lord's, or those of her faith, depending upon her actual standing.

[Honest Tiefling]

Building on what Kalirren said, perhaps your PC is a part of such and such order? Simply dropping the fact that they are a part of an order might imply a paladin.

[Lord_Gareth]

That is NOT a holy warrior.

Umm...why not?

[Candleke]

Well with the armor thing, maybe have like a "costume" made like some thin tin sheets with a little chain mail here and there for effect all of which is polished to all hell. You would have to work out weight and price but it wouldn't be armor.

Also you could say your god gives you the power to summon it every day and dismiss it every night but you can't show anyone the process because it is slightly indecent I.E. sailor moon transformation, and when your done hide your "armor" in a bush or in your bag.


This thread actually gave me a good idea for a paladin character, think of guy who has been a paladin for all his life and he is now like 49 and battle scared, a paladin that upholds justice more out of habit but through his service through-out the years has become bitter and easily agitated.... but not a drunk, to stereotypical.

[WarKitty]

Umm...why not?

Mainly inability to wear something that qualifies as "actual effective armor."

[Lord_Gareth]

Mainly inability to wear something that qualifies as "actual effective armor."

It's Ysgardian Plate (DMGII), duh :p

[noparlpf]

Umm...why not?

Yeah, that does not scream "Paladin" to me. It hardly even manages to whisper it. I'm thinking more like "cosplayer" or "newb trying to look like she knows how to wear armor but actually exposing vital areas like, you know, the heart, lungs, and throat".

[Lord_Gareth]

Yeah, that does not scream "Paladin" to me. It hardly even manages to whisper it. I'm thinking more like "cosplayer" or "newb trying to look like she knows how to wear armor but actually exposing vital areas like, you know, the heart, lungs, and throat".

See the above comment about Ysgardian armor. WotC thought of this already, and it was one of their few objectively brilliant ideas.

[noparlpf]

See the above comment about Ysgardian armor. WotC thought of this already, and it was one of their few objectively brilliant ideas.

I missed that post, it went through a few seconds before mine.

Ysgardian Armor doesn't really speak to me, you know?

[Lord_Gareth]

Ysgardian Armor doesn't really speak to me, you know?

This is perfectly fair. However, it does exist, and it exists completely and totally to justify things like that picture.

[Honest Tiefling]

Granted, it'll be pretty hard to get any sword other then a greatsword anywhere near her heart, what with the...Large perky padding she has on her chest.

Sadly, a woman in a full plate bikini might pass for a paladin with greater ease then a woman in sensible chainmail.

I don't know what is preventing you from drawing your character, but can you show your group a reference picture? If you can, just yoink the one of the paladin from the PHB or another iconic paladin. That is, if you don't mind the dated make-up.

[WarKitty]

Still, that outfit and pose/expression do not look like someone who's interested primarily in law and order, much less in doing battle.

[noparlpf]

This is perfectly fair. However, it does exist, and it exists completely and totally to justify things like that picture.

If I were DM for that player, I would refund them their 150 gp and say no.

If I were fighting someone IRL who was wearing something like that, screw their 150 gp, I would go for their exposed vitals. 150 gp can't get you actual magic to draw my weapon to your armor. It only gets you a smith with little enough shame to make armor that silly-looking.

Edit:

Still, that outfit and pose/expression do not look like someone who's interested primarily in law and order, much less in doing battle.

Yeah, and there's that. I was temporarily ignoring that part to complain about the silly armor.
That chick does not look like a Paladin to me. She looks more like a roguish sort of person.

[Anderlith]

Play a Pathfinder Cavalier with the Order of the Star. They are basically a true melee paladin.

[Lord_Gareth]

If I were DM for that player, I would refund them their 150 gp and say no.

If I were fighting someone IRL who was wearing something like that, screw their 150 gp, I would go for their exposed vitals. 150 gp can't get you actual magic to draw my weapon to your armor. It only gets you a smith with little enough shame to make armor that silly-looking.

If it helps, Ysgardian armor isn't just masterwork, it's a (rather expensive) magical item template that means it's been imbued with the essence of an Upper Plane, which is the bit that's actually protecting you.

[noparlpf]

If it helps, Ysgardian armor isn't just masterwork, it's a (rather expensive) magical item template that means it's been imbued with the essence of an Upper Plane, which is the bit that's actually protecting you.

Isn't that the Gloryborn template? DMG II pg 277.
"Cost: The gloryborn template adds 150 gp to the other costs associated with creating a given suit of armor or shield."
So yeah, no magic. I guess it's supposed to look so glory-riffic that it makes me want to not hit the wearer?

[Rei_Jin]

What level are you starting at? If you have the wealth, you could afford to get yourself a glamered chainshirt, so that it looks like Fullplate.

In terms of the weapon, if you made it a Morphing weapon (MIC, P39) you could have it appear as a longsword until you went into combat, at which point it mysteriously becomes a chain-whip.

Those two things would go a long way towards helping with first impressions.

The other thing you could do, is to make sure that most everything she has is ornate. Paladins are often roleplayed as Knights, and Knights in fantasy have wealth and tend to show it off. Golden Filigree on the armor, a finely crafted dagger with ivory hilt set with rubies, etc.

Of course, in a worst case scenario, have a big tabard with a holy symbol on it, and mention a paladinic deity as often as possible... "by St Cuthbert, let it be so."

[WarKitty]

What level are you starting at? If you have the wealth, you could afford to get yourself a glamered chainshirt, so that it looks like Fullplate.

In terms of the weapon, if you made it a Morphing weapon (MIC, P39) you could have it appear as a longsword until you went into combat, at which point it mysteriously becomes a chain-whip.

Those two things would go a long way towards helping with first impressions.

The other thing you could do, is to make sure that most everything she has is ornate. Paladins are often roleplayed as Knights, and Knights in fantasy have wealth and tend to show it off. Golden Filigree on the armor, a finely crafted dagger with ivory hilt set with rubies, etc.

Of course, in a worst case scenario, have a big tabard with a holy symbol on it, and mention a paladinic deity as often as possible... "by St Cuthbert, let it be so."

Starting at level 3, street thug background which has made her a bit neurotic about wanting to appear as a Real Paladin - she doesn't want people to know that she used to be a common criminal.

[Honest Tiefling]

And if you need to justify the morphing weapon, find a god with the longsword as a favored weapon. So its a symbol outside of combat, but in combat, you use the weapon you were trained with by your master. Who was totally a paladin.

[Honest Tiefling]

And if you need to justify the morphing weapon, find a god with the longsword as a favored weapon. So its a symbol outside of combat, but in combat, you use the weapon you were trained with by your master. Who was totally a paladin.

[WarKitty]

What level are you starting at? If you have the wealth, you could afford to get yourself a glamered chainshirt, so that it looks like Fullplate.

In terms of the weapon, if you made it a Morphing weapon (MIC, P39) you could have it appear as a longsword until you went into combat, at which point it mysteriously becomes a chain-whip.

Those two things would go a long way towards helping with first impressions.

The other thing you could do, is to make sure that most everything she has is ornate. Paladins are often roleplayed as Knights, and Knights in fantasy have wealth and tend to show it off. Golden Filigree on the armor, a finely crafted dagger with ivory hilt set with rubies, etc.

Of course, in a worst case scenario, have a big tabard with a holy symbol on it, and mention a paladinic deity as often as possible... "by St Cuthbert, let it be so."

Starting at level 3, street thug background which has made her a bit neurotic about wanting to appear as a Real Paladin - she doesn't want people to know that she used to be a common criminal.

[Othniel Edden]

Then you need your character to have connections enough to pull off being someone of a higher class.

[Rei_Jin]

Also, a chainshirt isn't too hard to conceal, so if you wanted you could tell them that you spent some time training in the monastery in the art of unarmed fighting... that should allay any suspicions about why this "paladin" is wearing noble clothing and no visible armor.

[Amnestic]

Still, that outfit and pose/expression do not look like someone who's interested primarily in law and order, much less in doing battle.

What, Paladins can't be sultry? Their code doesn't say anything about celibacy or not enjoying some of the more adult activities. Hell, if you can have Succubi Paladin (and you can), she's positively reserved and conservative in comparison. :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

See the above comment about Ysgardian armor. WotC thought of this already, and it was one of their few objectively brilliant ideas.

No, no. She gets Cha to AC. :smallamused:

[Prime32]

I'm looking to build a character that sort of screams "paladin" (NOT the Miko kind), without actually necessarily using paladin levels. So I was wondering - for you 3.5/PF types, what traits do you consider as the quintessential paladin traits?
Someone who is a hero, fighting evil and defending the weak. All other traits are secondary.

Serving a deity is an option for a paladin, not a requirement. It doesn't matter how bad things get, how much pain they endure, a paladin will always be a shining beacon, an example to those around him.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WOY8g-7JM7E/TAjxO8C5gXI/AAAAAAAAADQ/cDAwT1eZxjU/s1600/Kamenrider.gif

[Agrippa]

I'd say this fellow is just about right for a paladin.
http://suvudu.com/files/2011/02/Solomon-Kane.jpg
Solomon Kane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Kane)

[kardar233]

I think of a mounted knight in shining armour, casually oppressing the helpless underclass and disproportionately punishing those with the sense to take care of themselves...

Then I beat myself in the head with my copy of The Deed of Paksenarrion until it stops.

[Socratov]

When I think of a palladin, I think of a knight in shining armor, defending the helpless, furthering the goals of his cause/vow/deity/whatever and an arrogant prick at that. He wont accept treasure (even if the rest of the party does), he will leave no room for the party to not follow his code, he won't use 'unconventional' ways to get what he wants, and always launches a frontal attack. there si a reason they call lawful good palladins lawful stupid. when oppressed he is the best you can get, when not you have found a new oppressor (and yes, he oppresses you to be lawful good and do everything the way he tells you to do them, not as he does).

and he will look a bit like this (http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/garen-ultra-pwnage-de-2113).

[Rogue Shadows]

I think of Eraina d'Deneith and Zed Arthen from the Heirs of Ash trilogy of Eberron books. Zed more towards the end of the trilogy than the beginning, but still.

I also tend to think of Hinjo. And of Keldorn from Baldur's Gate II. Miko also tends to pop into my mind as an example of a character who was probably never really a Paladin to begin with and just finally screwed up enough for her DM to get sick of her.

I've never had the displeasure of running a game with, nor playing alongside, a Lawful Stupid Paladin, so the thought nary crosses my mind.

[WarKitty]

So here's another question for you all:

The paladin's code includes "act with honor." What exactly does "act with honor" mean, both in and out of combat?

[Prime32]

The paladin's code includes "act with honor." What exactly does "act with honor" mean, both in and out of combat?Keep your word. Don't use underhanded tactics like poison or blackmail, or cause your enemies unnecessary pain (killing them is fine, just don't be a **** about it). If you serve a person or organisation, don't let their reputation suffer because of you.

[nyarlathotep]

So here's another question for you all:

The paladin's code includes "act with honor." What exactly does "act with honor" mean, both in and out of combat?

Follow Mike's One Commandment: Don't be a ****.

[Slipperychicken]

Slotless, at-will item of Detect Evil (custom item rules): 3,000gp

Phylactery of Faithfulness (to keep you in line with the Code, Pathfinder SRD): 1,000gp

Bonus toHit and damage against Evil (to excuse bothering the DM about whether your target is Evil): Varies

The look on your party's face when they try to make you fall: Priceless

[WarKitty]

Slotless, at-will item of Detect Evil (custom item rules): 3,000gp

Phylactery of Faithfulness (to keep you in line with the Code, Pathfinder SRD): 1,000gp

Bonus toHit and damage against Evil (to excuse bothering the DM about whether your target is Evil): Varies

The look on your party's face when they try to make you fall: Priceless

I wish! Unfortunately level 3 starting gold: 3000

However:

Holy symbol amulet of detect evil, command word: 1800 gp, magic aura the aura off

Phylactery of Faithfulness: tie a box around your head and take magic aura as a spell

Bonus toHit and damage: Pass the DM notes

Lay on hands: CLW

[Redshirt Army]

How about we look at this from a metagamers perspective.

Let's see, at Third Level, a Paladin has:

-Aura of Good: Unlikely to come up, and cleric can provide it.

- Detect Evil: An at-will item costs 2000 gp, limited use will be cheaper, or you could just invest in Sense Motive Never mind, DC 60 to detect evil. Also: On the cleric spell list.

- Smite Evil: The Divine Might feat (CompWar) gives you CHA to damage by using up turn undead.

- Divine Grace: There are several ways of getting CHA to saves, though just multiclassing will probably be enough to emulate this because of the boost to saves.

- Lay on Hands: If you go cleric, healing spells can emulate this.

- Aura of Courage: Boost your Will save with something, or get immunity to fear somehow. The morale bonus to allies will be harder. I'm stumped here, any suggestions, playground?

- Divine Health: Probably won't come up, and a Lesser Crystal of Stamina (MiC) gives you a +3 bonus to saves vs. disease and poison for 900 gp.

- Proficient with all types of armour: Lots of classes give this, including cleric.

- Proficient with martial weapons: Since we're going cleric anyway, the War domain helps.

Summary: A one level cleric dip really helps with the paladin archetype, giving you an Aura of Good, CHA to attacks, healing, heavy armor proficiency, and proficiency with a martial weapon. The rest of the build can be any full BaB class, and the paladin flavor can be handled with roleplaying.

TL;DR: Dip Cleric and take the War domain, along with the Divine Might feat.

[randomhero00]

For me paladin screams honor above all else. No matter what.

[McStabbington]

I think of a person who believes with their whole heart that people can be good, honest and care for others, and dedicates their life to two goals: proving that belief in their own heart with their actions, and through action making the world a place where others can see it too.

And if I may, I always thought Mazzy was even more paladin-like than Keldorn. Keldorn was as brave and true as any follower of Torm could be, but I never saw in his interactions that he was all that good at convincing others through force of personality to believe what he was saying. Mazzy, being nothing more than a halfling woman with a desire to do what is right, was convincing even for me. To quote the ending for Mazzy: "It was often said that if valor were inches, she'd be twenty feet tall." If I had to use a real-life model, I'd probably use the heuristic of "What would Lou Gehrig (or at a minimum, the Lou Gehrig that lives on in popular imagination) do?"

[Psyren]

This guy is paladin to the core, right down to being infuriating:

http://withfriendship.com/images/i/43267/suzaku-kururugi3.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yNO2IVje7Vs/TcJQLKrFSmI/AAAAAAAACjU/TvuQbHWwq0s/s400/Suzaku.jpg

Paladins have to kick major ass too. I also think of Galad from WoT (a blademaster.) But mostly they piss off their less lawful friends even while they prove how reliable and upright they are.

[Rogue Shadows]

And if I may, I always thought Mazzy was even more paladin-like than Keldorn.

No real opinion on this - I never ran with Mazzy much. My point, though, was was Keldorn doesn't come across as Lawful Stupid.

Let's see...typically I went with:

BGI: Khalid, Jaheira, Imoen (Dual'd into Mage at the earliest opportunity so she was WAAAY more mage than thief), Corran, Yeslick, and myself (a thief focused on archery).

BGII: Aerie, Imoen (Yoshimo before rescuing her), Anomen (whom I helped to Knighthood despite being Chaotic myself), Minsc (of course), and myself (dual-wielding swashbuckler thief). The 6th slot was filled up by whatever sidequest dude or dudette was hanging around at the time - Vagyar, Keldorn, Nalia, whoever.

Throne of Bhaal: as above, but with the 6th slot filled in by Sarevok.

Chaotic Good Female Elf, BTW.

[Petrocorus]

Could you be more specific about your build?

Personnally, when i think to paladin, i first think to his code. And i picture a knight errant.


No, no. She gets Cha to AC. :smallamused:

How so?

[WarKitty]

Could you be more specific about your build?

Personnally, when i think to paladin, i first think to his code. And i picture a knight errant.



How so?

Currently, bard/fighter, pathfinder SRD only. Mostly bard, with oratory as the perform skill being used.

[Coidzor]

How so?

Erm.. ah... <_< >_> Have a link. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html)

[Fitz10019]

tl dr;
Captain Carrot and Don Quiote

Basically, someone who has a firm belief that good will win, because that is how things are meant to be. Any failure is a lesson that is meant to instruct you, to restore your humility, and / or to remind you that the battle is never fully won.

[Leon]

Knight in Shining Armour - whether they actually wear any armour is another matter but that ideal that they uphold, fighting to protect others and uphold the law.

[Petrocorus]

Currently, bard/fighter, pathfinder SRD only. Mostly bard, with oratory as the perform skill being used.

BTW, why do you not want to have paladin levels?

[Frozen_Feet]

When I think of Paladin, the first things that come to mind are their Code and being a dedicated servant of Law and Good. So it's the ideology that's important - mechanical abilities, not so much.

So a Paladin protects the innocents, heeds laws of the land when they aren't unjust, works to correct them when they are, doesn't lie, poison, murder or abuse those around him, and tries to bring to justice those that do.

[monkey3]

What do I think when I hear paladin?

Here comes the bully

Self appointed party leader

I just turned into an NPC

[Rogue Shadows]

Here comes the bully

Self appointed party leader

I just turned into an NPC

At first glance I thought this was a haiku.

Hmm.

Here comes the bully,
Self-righteous party leader:
Now an NPC

A rebuttle:

A poor roleplayer,
Lawful Stupid given form:
Not real Paladin.

[Amnestic]

A poor roleplayer,
Lawful Stupid given form:
Not real Paladin.

Not a true Scotsman
'Poor' is subjective to all
Some Paladins are.

I agree with you, I just didn't want to stop haikuing :P

[WarKitty]

BTW, why do you not want to have paladin levels?

I don't actually object to paladin levels, I just found that as I got more into the character, the paladin levels were not doing anything mechanically worthwhile that I couldn't accomplish more easily some other way. I didn't want to go pure paladin because I do want the character to be mechanically somewhat different, and I ended up frankly rather feat-starved until I swapped the paladin levels for fighter levels.

[McStabbington]

Not a true Scotsman
'Poor' is subjective to all
Some Paladins are.

I agree with you, I just didn't want to stop haikuing :P

Not a true Scotsman
Just as, I humbly believe,
A Dane is no Scot.

I didn't see the white type. Just hate the misuse of this falacy.

[WarKitty]

Being a bully is in violation of a Good alignment; therefore a paladin cannot be a bully without losing his powers. And it makes sense for the guy with the highest Charisma score to be the leader IC.

I've found our groups actually tend toward the guy with the highest wisdom score being the IC leader. Not at first, but after a while people learn whose plans work best.

[Prime32]

Gah, just after I deleted that post intending to word it better. :smallyuk:

I will say that "the strategist" is not the same thing as "the leader" - the latter needs to be capable of bringing people together - he can delegate the plans to someone else. It's no good having the perfect formula for victory if you can't convince others to follow it.

[WarKitty]

Gah, just after I deleted that post intending to word it better. :smallyuk:

I will say that "the strategist" is not the same thing as "the leader" - the latter needs to be capable of bringing people together - he can delegate the plans to someone else. It's no good having the perfect formula for victory if you can't convince others to follow it.

True. Although still, I read charisma as having a greater effect on strangers than on people you know, at least for how willing they are to follow you.

[Sception]

Too late here, but I generally find a hat of disguise useful when trying to fool other party members as to your character's exact nature, providing you're starting at a high enough level to pick one up (not too hard, they're pretty cheap).

It's proven essential to dread necromancers I've played in the past, helping them pass as clerics via illusionary heavy armor.

[Prime32]

True. Although still, I read charisma as having a greater effect on strangers than on people you know, at least for how willing they are to follow you.There is also the matter that a charismatic character is likely to be more decisive though.

[WarKitty]

There is also the matter that a charismatic character is likely to be more decisive though.

And here starts the old "what exactly is charisma" debate.

[Petrocorus]

Have you pondered a Bardadin build like:

Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4

[Rogue Shadows]

And here starts the old "what exactly is charisma" debate.

Force of personality and the strength at which a character presents themselves.

Sense of self.

Appearance, not because someone with a high Charisma is necessarily good-looking, but rather because someone with a high Charisma knows how to emphasize what they've got and downplay what they don't.

Take a good look at Angelina Jolie sometime. She looks like a fish. Yet she's generally considered attractive. Why? Because she's got a high Charisma.

[noparlpf]

Force of personality and the strength at which a character presents themselves.

Sense of self.

Appearance, not because someone with a high Charisma is necessarily good-looking, but rather because someone with a high Charisma knows how to emphasize what they've got and downplay what they don't.

Take a good look at Angelina Jolie sometime. She looks like a fish. Yet she's generally considered attractive. Why? Because she's got a high Charisma.

This is why the one thing I like about 4e is that Will saves get either Wisdom or Charisma. Or at least that's what it said in my cousin's 4e beginner's set. But in 3.5 you need a feat to let your "force of personality" resist things like compulsion effects.

[Starbuck_II]

Force of personality and the strength at which a character presents themselves.

Sense of self.

Appearance, not because someone with a high Charisma is necessarily good-looking, but rather because someone with a high Charisma knows how to emphasize what they've got and downplay what they don't.

Take a good look at Angelina Jolie sometime. She looks like a fish. Yet she's generally considered attractive. Why? Because she's got a high Charisma.

Or Fish are considered attractive (Occam's razor).

[Petrocorus]

But in 3.5 you need a feat to let your "force of personality" resist things like compulsion effects.

Ho, where can find this feat?

[Rogue Shadows]

Or Fish are considered attractive (Occam's razor).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2nEidqoUGFE/TdBmgP9VZdI/AAAAAAAAAEw/4ZsvEedfCew/s1600/fish-face.png

Occam just accidentally cut himself.

[noparlpf]

Ho, where can find this feat?

I'm pretty sure it's actually called "Force of Personality". One minute.
FORCE OF PERSONALITY
You have cultivated an unshakeable belief in your self-worth. Your sense of self and purpose are so strong that they bolster your willpower.
Prerequisite: Cha 13.
Benefit: You add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Wisdom modifier) to Will saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities.

Complete Adventurer page 109.
Which isn't even as good as I thought it was; it's limited to mind-affecting effects. I had only ever read the snippet on the list of feats until today, which says "Add Cha modifier, rather than Wis modifier, to Will saves".

[WarKitty]

Have you pondered a Bardadin build like:

Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4

Takes too long to get to the goodies for a character in a low-level campaign. Plus, pathfinder classes only.

[Honest Tiefling]

Take a good look at Angelina Jolie sometime. She looks like a fish. Yet she's generally considered attractive. Why? Because she's got a high Charisma.

She might still be considered attractive even if she literally had the head of a fish. Look below the neck, and you'll see another two reasons she's considered attractive.

That and I'm sure they have people who can airbrush things like that out if need be.

Little more on topic, any news about your god? And might I ask why your PC is posing as a paladin, instead of a cleric or cleric/rouge?

[WarKitty]

She might still be considered attractive even if she literally had the head of a fish. Look below the neck, and you'll see another two reasons she's considered attractive.

That and I'm sure they have people who can airbrush things like that out if need be.

Little more on topic, any news about your god? And might I ask why your PC is posing as a paladin, instead of a cleric or cleric/rouge?

No news on the god.

On the paladin thing...I wouldn't even really put it as "posing as." I'm firmly of the belief that classes are a metagame concept. In game and backstory terms, she is a paladin - a martial character devoted to the service of her deity and order, and to the promotion of righteousness. It's where the character idea originated, really - as a paladin with a bit of an "extra" in her background.

[Honest Tiefling]

My mistake. I thought she was doing paladiny things to hide her background, she is a holy warrior committed to certain ideals. Got it.

How likely are your buddies to not assume she is a martial character, given her gender and lack of full plate? I assume you aren't going to heavier armors later.

[WarKitty]

My mistake. I thought she was doing paladiny things to hide her background, she is a holy warrior committed to certain ideals. Got it.

How likely are your buddies to not assume she is a martial character, given her gender and lack of full plate? I assume you aren't going to heavier armors later.

Gender won't really be an issue - they're quite used to female fighters. Lack of full plate - maybe, although not as likely. So far of the committed players, we have one who's fairly rules proficient and one who's brand new.

She *is* hiding her background, but it's supposed to be more of a sense of shame for having a "dirty" past, and a fear that she won't be able to pursue her own ideals if people know who she used to be.

[Honest Tiefling]

Any chance of ceremonial armor bits (Such as bracers) that won't impede spellcasting being put on? I wonder if the current outfit sends out a more roguish vibe that you want to curtail.

[Petrocorus]

About the god, what universe your campaign is set in?

What pantheon are available?

[WarKitty]

Any chance of ceremonial armor bits (Such as bracers) that won't impede spellcasting being put on? I wonder if the current outfit sends out a more roguish vibe that you want to curtail.

Not a bad idea. I was thinking of putting a surcoat or tabard over the chain, but pathfinder does list parade armor as a valid light armor. Probably going to spring for mithral breastplate as soon as I can afford it. Might send a bit much of a "showy idiot" vibe, but that's actually desired...

Edit: Homebrew universe, information on deities not available at this point.

[Regularguy]

I'm looking to build a character that sort of screams "paladin" (NOT the Miko kind), without actually necessarily using paladin levels. So I was wondering - for you 3.5/PF types, what traits do you consider as the quintessential paladin traits?

In a couple of days, you can see the Captain America movie for yourself. :smallsmile:

[Othniel Edden]

Paladin should be chivalrous, as such following these as a guideline is a good approach



To fear God and maintain His Church

To serve the liege lord in valour and faith

To protect the weak and defenceless

To give succour to widows and orphans

To refrain from the wanton giving of offence

To live by honour and for glory

To despise pecuniary reward

To fight for the welfare of all

To obey those placed in authority

To guard the honour of fellow knights

To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit

To keep faith

At all times to speak the truth

To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun

To respect the honour of women (you could turn this into being a worthy suitor)

Never to refuse a challenge from an equal

Never to turn the back upon a foe

A Paladin should also be virtuous, and this is as good a list of virtues as any
Faith, Charity, Justice, Sagacity, Prudence, Temperance, Resolution, Truth, Liberality, Diligence, Hope and Valour

[Honest Tiefling]

Not a bad idea. I was thinking of putting a surcoat or tabard over the chain, but pathfinder does list parade armor as a valid light armor. Probably going to spring for mithral breastplate as soon as I can afford it. Might send a bit much of a "showy idiot" vibe, but that's actually desired...

Sadly, I think the humble peasant clothing is very fitting for a paladin, but it often does give the wrong message. No, I'm not a ranger. No, I'm not a cleric either. Showy, shiny armor that loudly broadcasts that your god is awesome will probably help you a lot.

[Mutant Sheep]

In a couple of days, you can see the Captain America movie for yourself. :smallsmile:

That movie was incredible! But him being a Paladin...mehhhh...I don't see paladin's as the "jump on a grenade" kind of person. More the "throw it really far away, but away from people" kind of person.
Away from awesome movies and Elrond being a bad guy and back to the topic, does she have a "Inner peace" paladin vibe? The "if she wasn't wearing the armor and had the big metal weapon I'd think she's a monk" kind of paladin? Or an outgoing and more emotional paladin who isn't so "peaceful"?

[Morithias]

"Adol is an interesting example since it's not entirely a coincidence that he ends up in places in need of saving: he went to Ys in the first place specifically because he heard it was under attack. Most people with Chronic Hero Syndrome end up helping the people around them because they can't help themselves, despite all the damage and disruption it causes their normal lives. Adol, by contrast, was told that there were still people in the world that were being eaten by dragons and enslaved by sorcerers at an impressionable age and decided then and there that somebody needed to do something about that. While most people on the page are more personally motivated, and end up wanting to save the girl they just ran into because of some instant emotional attachment, for Adol it's just what he does. Being a Knight Errant is his normal life. He does not just run into trouble, he goes looking for it. It could fall under All A Part Of The Job if it weren't entirely on a volunteer basis and he's having too much fun saving the world one country at a time to angst about it the way most people who fall under these tropes do. It's very refreshing to see a hero who is in charge of his own life and actually wants to help people instead of doing it solely out of personal attachments and selfish reasons."

This is a paladin. They do not help because it is easy, they do not help because of pride or any reward offered (Although they will take them it's only polite). They help because it's the bloody right thing to do.

[Coidzor]

She *is* hiding her background, but it's supposed to be more of a sense of shame for having a "dirty" past, and a fear that she won't be able to pursue her own ideals if people know who she used to be.

Which doesn't really come across as very Paladinny in the first place, really. What with the whole redemption angle.

[deuxhero]

"Great, what did the DM do this time?"

[Rogue Shadows]

This is a paladin. They do not help because it is easy, they do not help because of pride or any reward offered (Although they will take them it's only polite). They help because it's the bloody right thing to do.

I've had this idea in my head of a Don Quixote-inspired movie where the fourth act involves Quixano, having become sane, just about to give up on life and dreams and chivalry when he hears from Sancho that his "sweet Dulcinea" is in danger through one thing or another. The close of the fourth act involves him deciding that to Hell with how the world wants to work and riding off to rescue her, his neice and family trying to convince him to stop and culminating in one of them saying "The world you live in never existed!"

And Quixano simply slaps on his helmet, draws his sword, and proclaims loudly, "It should have!"

Then he charges headfirst towards the climax, having regained his sanity fully and nevertheless deciding that the world doesn't need the hidalgo Alonso Quixano - it needs Don Quixote De La Mancha.

In game terms, that'd be the moment when he levelled up and took his first actual level of Paladin, becoming an Aristocrat 2/Paladin 1.

[WarKitty]

Sadly, I think the humble peasant clothing is very fitting for a paladin, but it often does give the wrong message. No, I'm not a ranger. No, I'm not a cleric either. Showy, shiny armor that loudly broadcasts that your god is awesome will probably help you a lot.

Indeed.


That movie was incredible! But him being a Paladin...mehhhh...I don't see paladin's as the "jump on a grenade" kind of person. More the "throw it really far away, but away from people" kind of person.
Away from awesome movies and Elrond being a bad guy and back to the topic, does she have a "Inner peace" paladin vibe? The "if she wasn't wearing the armor and had the big metal weapon I'd think she's a monk" kind of paladin? Or an outgoing and more emotional paladin who isn't so "peaceful"?

Hmmmm...probably trying for the more monk-like angle. Likely a fairly heavy opposition to violence - not that she'll refuse to use it, it's just not the top choice.


Which doesn't really come across as very Paladinny in the first place, really. What with the whole redemption angle.

That part at least is supposed to be a character flaw. For a modern equivalent, think of an anti-drug activist who's all about helping kids get clean, but doesn't want to let on that he did drugs back in school because he thinks it'll make the kids not listen.

[nyarlathotep]

I've had this idea in my head of a Don Quixote-inspired movie where the fourth act involves Quixano, having become sane, just about to give up on life and dreams and chivalry when he hears from Sancho that his "sweet Dulcinea" is in danger through one thing or another. The close of the fourth act involves him deciding that to Hell with how the world wants to work and riding off to rescue her, his neice and family trying to convince him to stop and culminating in one of them saying "The world you live in never existed!"

And Quixano simply slaps on his helmet, draws his sword, and proclaims loudly, "It should have!"

Then he charges headfirst towards the climax, having regained his sanity fully and nevertheless deciding that the world doesn't need the hidalgo Alonso Quixano - it needs Don Quixote De La Mancha.

In game terms, that'd be the moment when he levelled up and took his first actual level of Paladin, becoming an Aristocrat 2/Paladin 1.

Which movie was that cause it sounds really good.

[Rogue Shadows]

Which movie was that cause it sounds really good.

Doesn't exist, sadly. If I had a lot of money and connections, though, it'd be from my film adaptation of Don Quixote.

[Coidzor]

That part at least is supposed to be a character flaw. For a modern equivalent, think of an anti-drug activist who's all about helping kids get clean, but doesn't want to let on that he did drugs back in school because he thinks it'll make the kids not listen.

Yeah, I'm not following with this example.

[Amnestic]

That part at least is supposed to be a character flaw. For a modern equivalent, think of an anti-drug activist who's all about helping kids get clean, but doesn't want to let on that he did drugs back in school because he thinks it'll make the kids not listen.

That's a really bad analogy for what you want; anti-drug activists who are 'reformed' drug ab/users are - as far as I've found - almost universally more listened to because they actually have experience and first-hand knowledge of what the stuff does to you.

Plus, often hilarious stories.

[WarKitty]

Yeah, I'm not following with this example.


That's a really bad analogy for what you want; anti-drug activists who are 'reformed' drug ab/users are - as far as I've found - almost universally more listened to because they actually have experience and first-hand knowledge of what the stuff does to you.

Plus, often hilarious stories.

Really? The stuff I've seen, you got to stand around and tell sob stories, but the actually useful positions never went to people who had open pasts. If you had drugs in your past, you could tell the stories but you didn't actually get to work with the kids. Which is really more about the adults than the kids, honestly. That's kind of what I'm thinking - more likely some of the other paladins didn't respect or trust her because of her past, so she's assuming that's the way everyone will be.

[Coidzor]

Really? The stuff I've seen, you got to stand around and tell sob stories, but the actually useful positions never went to people who had open pasts. If you had drugs in your past, you could tell the stories but you didn't actually get to work with the kids. Which is really more about the adults than the kids, honestly. That's kind of what I'm thinking - more likely some of the other paladins didn't respect or trust her because of her past, so she's assuming that's the way everyone will be.

So Paladin Order = narrow-minded "middle class" individuals pretending to more status than they actually have? :smallconfused:

Because that's the only group that I've run into that hasn't seen the value in having reformed individuals in some part of the apparatus.

Why would an actually idealistic Paladin want anything to do with these people? Why would this character want anything to do with those who would be too busy not letting her play in all their reindeer games to get around to combating evil and, y'know, exploring that whole redemption and compassion angle that sometimes gets bandied about?

Because if Paladins are like that, then they're not so much Paragons of Good as PTA members who have big fish in little pond syndrome.

Hell, I'd expect her to want to show those schoolmarms how proper Paladinning is done more than be accepted by them.

[WarKitty]

So Paladin Order = narrow-minded "middle class" individuals pretending to more status than they actually have? :smallconfused:

Because that's the only group that I've run into that hasn't seen the value in having reformed individuals in some part of the apparatus.

Why would an actually idealistic Paladin want anything to do with these people? Why would this character want anything to do with those who would be too busy not letting her play in all their reindeer games to get around to combating evil and, y'know, exploring that whole redemption and compassion angle that sometimes gets bandied about?

Because if Paladins are like that, then they're not so much Paragons of Good as PTA members who have big fish in little pond syndrome.

Hell, I'd expect her to want to show those schoolmarms how proper Paladinning is done more than be accepted by them.

Because a single flaw that some of the members of the order have does not make it a bad order. One of the things that makes a lot of fantasy orders obnoxious is that they have absolutely no flaws. You can have an order that is genuinely committed to doing good, helping those less fortunate, and fighting evil, that still has trouble accepting that people have been truly reformed. I've seen it a lot in real life - people who are willing to devote hours of time and energy to helping others get their lives back together, but still aren't comfortable having the ex-con sitting across the table from them playing cards. It's meant to be a good but flawed character coming from an order of good but variously flawed characters.

[Coidzor]

Because a single flaw that some of the members of the order have does not make it a bad order.

So if she's actually accepted by a good chunk of the order then what does she care of the idiots who are too concerned with the past and don't understand the concept of redemption to actually do their jobs as paladins?

[WarKitty]

So if she's actually accepted by a good chunk of the order then what does she care of the idiots who are too concerned with the past and don't understand the concept of redemption to actually do their jobs as paladins?

Two things here:

(1) You're treating acceptance as an all-or-nothing variable. It's not. I know a lot of people who are ok with things in principle but still have a lot of problems overcoming various ingrained biases. That's more the idea I was thinking - on paper, everyone's behind redemption. In practice, some people have a harder time getting it to work than others.

(2) These are the people who she had to live and work with on a daily basis. It's almost impossible for any human being to not be affected by the attitudes of those around them, even if they think those attitudes are wrong.

I don't get why you're insisting on seeing anyone with any flaw in this area as a horrible paladin. That's exactly what generates the usual sanctimonious jerk stereotype - insisting that in order to be a "real paladin" a character must be completely flawless and never struggle.

[Coidzor]

Two things here:

(1) You're treating acceptance as an all-or-nothing variable. It's not. I know a lot of people who are ok with things in principle but still have a lot of problems overcoming various ingrained biases. That's more the idea I was thinking - on paper, everyone's behind redemption. In practice, some people have a harder time getting it to work than others.

(2) These are the people who she had to live and work with on a daily basis. It's almost impossible for any human being to not be affected by the attitudes of those around them, even if they think those attitudes are wrong.

I don't get why you're insisting on seeing anyone with any flaw in this area as a horrible paladin. That's exactly what generates the usual sanctimonious jerk stereotype - insisting that in order to be a "real paladin" a character must be completely flawless and never struggle.

Because, what exactly can this character have done that was so heinous that they would ignore their entire rhetoric and paradigm of redemption?

You said she was street trash before her life got turned around, not even a murderer or anything actually evil, just poor.

Essentially, the way you've been talking about it makes the paladins who she wants to live up to look like Miko, so why would anyone think that they were worth her time?

Or hell, why they took her in or tried to turn her life around in the first place.

[WarKitty]

Because, what exactly can this character have done that was so heinous that they would ignore their entire rhetoric and paradigm of redemption?

You said she was street trash before her life got turned around, not even a murderer or anything actually evil, just poor.

Essentially, the way you've been talking about it makes the paladins who she wants to live up to look like Miko, so why would anyone think that they were worth her time?

Or hell, why they took her in or tried to turn her life around in the first place.

Technically I said street thug/common criminal...but anyway, the summary is that the character had been working as an enforcer for an inner-city brothel - the person that makes sure the customers don't leave without paying. Probably with a sideline of helping to procure/retain the prostitutes themselves. So there's definitely more to it than just "being poor." I haven't quite gotten all the details together, partly because I'm not sure the ages of some of the other players.

Edit: The idea I had was that she crossed a fairly high-ranking member of the order (possibly a cleric rather than a paladin), who had her taken in. The higher-ups certainly approve of her and her work, but some of the rank-and-file, particularly the newer members, aren't so sure. And she has the standard human desire to feel that she fits in somewhere.

[Mutant Sheep]

The traits really focus on the in-game effects more than the appearance. I'd been planning a port-wine stain.

And there will be a picture. My characters always have pictures.
Still planning on the port-wine stain? Will it be visible or not? Will the paladins who don't like her have a derogatory name based off this?

[WarKitty]

Still planning on the port-wine stain? Will it be visible or not? Will the paladins who don't like her have a derogatory name based off this?

I wasn't really thinking of outright hostility. I was thinking more of people who are nice and polite but still manage to make it clear that they just aren't comfortable around her. More like she doesn't have major enemies within the order, she just doesn't really have friends either, and no one seems to quite trust her.

[Mutant Sheep]

I wasn't really thinking of outright hostility. I was thinking more of people who are nice and polite but still manage to make it clear that they just aren't comfortable around her. More like she doesn't have major enemies within the order, she just doesn't really have friends either, and no one seems to quite trust her.

And no paladin levels, do you have your build set up?

[noparlpf]

I'm in the process of designing a true neutral paladin of nature.
Not totally related at this point, but hey.

[Mutant Sheep]

I'm in the process of designing a true neutral paladin of nature.
Not totally related at this point, but hey.

Have fun with that. :smalltongue:

[WarKitty]

And no paladin levels, do you have your build set up?

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=21181

[Serenity]

Ultimately, what makes a paladin is not the mount, the smiting, the armor or the blessed longsword. Those are iconic mechanics and fitting flavor. But all that is really required to call yourself a paladin is a simple and utterly sincere devotion to Doing the Right Thing in the Right Way. Be honest, honorable, forthright, loyal and courageous. Bring hope to the hopeless, help the helpless, be a shield for the defenseless, a balm to the sick and injured, and a beacon for those lost and wandering in the dark.

Being a paladin isn't about what's written on your character sheet. It's not a class. It's a way of life.

[Mutant Sheep]

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=21181

3rd level 37 year old female bard/fighter with a spiked chain and shortbow. Nice build.:smallsmile: