[DnD 3.5] Countering Aging Penalties

[theonesin]

I'm making a wizard, and I'm trying to get as high an Int as I can(LA isn't allowed), and was looking at the aging effects. Other than Dragonwrought Kobold, are their any good ways to counter the negative effects of aging?

[deuxhero]

Reincarnate should keep your mental scores but give you a new physical score.

[Rei_Jin]

Get old, die of wounds or anything other than old age, get Reincarnated.

You gain the physical stat mods of the new form, but your mental stats do not change.

[theonesin]

Is this a spell or something? Where can I find it?

[HappyBlanket]

Is this a spell or something? Where can I find it?

Druid core spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) Named Reincarnate.

[Talya]

Is this a spell or something? Where can I find it?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm

[Glimbur]

Note that this will get DMG's thrown at you.

Druids get Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#druidTimelessBody) at level 15, but it is difficult to justify "I adventured as a druid until level 15, took 50 years off, and now I'm back and badder than ever!" Monks have the same ability at level 17, with similar problems.

Consider being a Grey Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm), which hurts due to a Con penalty but is core. It also doesn't have the human bonus feat... but if you really need the Int it's an option.

Craft Wondrous Item is a pretty easy feat for a wizard to qualify for, and if you craft your own Int boosters you can get a boost sooner than normal.

Manuals or Wishes are a rather high level option... unless you abuse Candle of Invocation to get Efreeti for Wishes or something equally dubious.

[theonesin]

Sadly, we're starting at level 10, so the Druid and Monk things aren't options.

[deuxhero]

Also consider being a Lesser Tiefling (PGtF IIRC), +2 dex, +2 Int -2 Cha for no LA.

[HalfDragonCube]

[QUOTE=Glimbur;11438263Consider being a Grey Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm), which hurts due to a Con penalty but is core. It also doesn't have the human bonus feat... but if you really need the Int it's an option.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I once played a venerable Grey Elf wizard for a while. Sure, they only had a few hp and couldn't carry their own spellbook, but the glass cannon tissue-paper supernova element was cool.

[Amnestic]

Also consider being a Lesser Tiefling (PGtF IIRC), +2 dex, +2 Int -2 Cha for no LA.

To elaborate on this more, there are Lesser Planetouched rules towards the end of the Player's Guide to Faerun. In essence, these remove the LA and change them from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched). This includes Aasimar, Tieflings, Genasi, Para-Genasi (Dragon Mag) and a few others from across various books. Lesser Aasimar are the most commonly touted, offering +2 Wis, +2 Cha and various other goodies at +0 LA (perfect Cleric race), but the others also get some use.

Ask DM approval beforehand, since Lesser Planetouched are generally seen as a quite powerful LA +0 option; though in many, many cases, I would argue that a base Human is a superior choice for power builds.

[deuxhero]

Though full planetouched are generally horrible uses for the LA unless you are using the odd loophole like "as outsiders they get full martial weapon proficiency and qualify for lots of prcs without dipping" when used alongside LA buy off, so it evens out

[RndmNumGen]

Maybe be an Elan? They're immortal and thus never gain aging penalties or die of old age, but they're created from humans and use human starting ages, so they might also gain human aging bonuses since they accumulate... what is it... life experience at the same rate?

Probably need to talk with your DM about that.

[noparlpf]

If you're one of the races from Races of the Wild, the aging table seems to have a misprint which lets your venerable bonus be +3 instead of only +1 like for humans, if I remember properly. That at least helps your mental stats keep up with the drop in your physical stats.

Be a Druid or a Monk.

Work out and eat right?

Reincarnate and Last Breath, by RAW, provide you with a healthy "young adult" body of a random race without a LA. No reason you wouldn't keep your mental age benefits, and you reset the physical penalties. Just reincarnate repeatedly for thousands of years. Have normal physical stats and huge mental bonuses (that's not RAW, but I see no reason for further experience not to give you further bonuses).

[Groverfield]

If LAdj is out, so too takes with it almost any way of ignoring aging penalties for wizards, aside from reincarnation spell, but keep in mind that you're going to be losing one level of experience for each time you do this, so it's not always the best idea

[noparlpf]

If LAdj is out, so too takes with it almost any way of ignoring aging penalties for wizards, aside from reincarnation spell, but keep in mind that you're going to be losing one level of experience for each time you do this, so it's not always the best idea

Last Breath. It's the Revivify of Reincarnate. If the Druid "Reincarnates" you within six seconds of your death you don't lose the level.

[Groverfield]

Last breath still says lose a level in the 3rd paragraph of CDiv, and doesn't say that they get a new body, just "HP go to 0, cures bleeds, nonmagic poison and diseases, ability scores below 1 raise to 1, lose a level for dying." Is there another Last Breath spell somewhere that doesn't say this?

[noparlpf]

Last breath still says lose a level in the 3rd paragraph of CDiv, and doesn't say that they get a new body, just "HP go to 0, cures bleeds, nonmagic poison and diseases, ability scores below 1 raise to 1, lose a level for dying." Is there another Last Breath spell somewhere that doesn't say this?

Spell Compendium pg 130:
LAST BREATH
Transmutation
Level: Druid 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Rushing to the body of your fallen ally, you
call out magic words that will bring back
life and breath to your friend.
Last breath restores life to a recently
deceased creature, creating a new body
for the returning spirit to inhabit.
However, the spell must be cast within
1 round of the victim’s death. This spell
functions like reincarnate (PH 270),
except that the reincarnated creature
receives no level loss, no Constitution
loss, and no loss of spells. The creature
has –1 hit points (but is stable).
Material Component: Rare oils and
unguents worth a total of at least
500 gp, spread over the remains.

Edit:
Woah, the Complete Divine version is very, very different.
Complete Divine pg 167:
LAST BREATH
Necromancy
Level: Druid 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
With this spell, you can return a dead creature to 0 hit
points, provided it died within the last round. You take 1d4
points of damage per Hit Die of the creature affected, and
your spell resistance cannot overcome this damage.
The subject’s soul must be free and willing to return (see
Bringing Back the Dead, page 171 of the Player’s Handbook).
If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does
not work; therefore, a subject who wants to return receives
no saving throw.
Last breath cures enough damage to bring the subject’s
current hit points to 0. Any ability scores damaged to 0 or
below are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease
are cured, but magical diseases and curses are not undone.
The spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage
of most kinds, but missing body parts are still missing
when the creature returns to life. None of the dead creature’s
equipment or possessions are affected in any way by
this spell.
Coming back from
the dead is an ordeal.
The subject loses one
level when it returns
to life, just as if it had
lost a level to an energy-
draining creature.
This level loss cannot
be repaired by any
spell. A subject who
was previously 1st
level loses 1 point of
Constitution instead.
A character who died
with spells prepared
has a 50% chance of
losing any given spell
upon being raised,
in addition to losing
spells for losing a
level. A spellcasting
creature that doesn’t
prepare spells (such
as a sorcerer) has a
50% chance of losing
any given unused
spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to
losing spell slots for losing a level.
Last breath has no effect on a creature that has been dead
for more than 1 round. A creature that died from a death
effect can’t be raised by this spell, nor can constructs, elementals,
outsiders, and undead creatures. Last breath cannot
bring back a creature who has died of old age.

The spell school changed, the entire effect is pretty vastly different. (The effect in CDiv doesn't fit with some fluff earlier in the book saying that Last Breath functions because the spirit has not yet left the body and is currently unaware, as if it were unconscious, or something along those lines. See page 125. The fact that it still allows a save in the CDiv version despite this tends to make me think that that book could have been edited a little better.) My group has always used the SC version.

[Zonugal]

Maybe be an Elan? They're immortal and thus never gain aging penalties or die of old age, but they're created from humans and use human starting ages, so they might also gain human aging bonuses since they accumulate... what is it... life experience at the same rate?

Probably need to talk with your DM about that.

Elans, while practically immortals, do indeed suffer aging penalties. They're still great though for those who want to play an immortal (killorens are another great option)

One option is to start your physical stats at 16 and simply accept the physical penalties in anticipation of your mental stats getting bumped. Now that is an expensive option but another one, doable with 32-points is:

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 11
Which becomes after aging bonuses/penalties & level boosts
Str 8, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 14

[Rei_Jin]

The Spell Compendium version is the more up to date and correct version. Consider it an errata for the previous version of the spell.

[Ravens_cry]

Get old, die of wounds or anything other than old age, get Reincarnated.

You gain the physical stat mods of the new form, but your mental stats do not change.

Now this WILL get the book thrown at you, but in theory this could be cycled, since you explicitly get to keep your mental statistics, which could be said to include ageing bonuses, but now you are a young adult whatever.
Rinse, lather repeat with abiodegradable soupa Reincarnate.

[Luckmann]

Now this WILL get the book thrown at you, but in theory this could be cycled, since you explicitly get to keep your mental statistics, which could be said to include ageing bonuses, but now you are a young adult whatever.
Rinse, lather repeat with abiodegradable soupa Reincarnate.

Reincarnating every 50th or 60th year seems to be a better option than Lichdom. :smalltongue:

[Groverfield]

The Spell Compendium version is the more up to date and correct version. Consider it an errata for the previous version of the spell.

I wouldn't consider it balanced for a 4th level druid spell though, and also highly improbable that a druid would prepare it unless part of a ritual execution and revival... could be some fluff if you're to use it like that though. Also claim that you rolled so you come back as a bugbear so -8/-4/-8/+5/+3/+3 score adjustments become +4/+2/+2/+5/+3/+3.

[Ravens_cry]

Reincarnating every 50th or 60th year seems to be a better option than Lichdom. :smalltongue:
Even if it doesn't work the way I say, it is still a viable means of living "forever".

[Psyren]

Maybe be an Elan? They're immortal and thus never gain aging penalties or die of old age, but they're created from humans and use human starting ages, so they might also gain human aging bonuses since they accumulate... what is it... life experience at the same rate?

Probably need to talk with your DM about that.

Both Elan and Warforged take aging penalties (and even have tables showing when.) They just don't die.

Elan is still a good choice though because you can shore up your low Con with their resilience ability. You'll probably want to be a psion, erudite or cerebremancer to really take advantage of it though.

Alternatively, be a Warforged (with Unarmored Body if necessary) and the Con penalty from aging won't smart as much.

Dwarves can offset it too (though they aren't immortal.)

[Alleran]

While we're on this topic, would gaining the quality of "immunity to aging" solve the issue of penalties? Or would it also remove the bonus as well? Obviously "immunity to aging penalties" is the desired goal, but would a more generic immunity also serve to solve the problem, presuming that the DM is a reasonable one who wouldn't chop off the mental bonus for old age as well as removing the physical penalty?

[Ravens_cry]

Most (all?) class abilities that grant an immunity to ageing penalties explicitly say that bonuses still accrue. For example, Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#druidTimelessBody) on a druid.
You still die when your time is up, but, as others and I have mentioned, there is various ways around that.

[Psyren]

Most (all?) class abilities that grant an immunity to ageing penalties explicitly say that bonuses still accrue. For example, Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#druidTimelessBody) on a druid.
You still die when your time is up, but, as others and I have mentioned, there is various ways around that.

Conversely, if they don't say you get/keep the bonuses, then you don't. For instance, a creature under the effects of Temporal Stasis would not age at all, getting neither bonuses nor penalties no matter how long they were in that state.

[Ravens_cry]

Conversely, if they don't say you get/keep the bonuses, then you don't. For instance, a creature under the effects of Temporal Stasis would not age at all, getting neither bonuses nor penalties no matter how long they were in that state.
Ah yes, stasis "immortality". You get to see more of the story, but you are only a part of it for as long as you normally would.

[Taelas]

Do note the cycling Reincarnate like that is a very good way to get an Inevitable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) after you (specifically a Marut, the most dangerous version). If you don't know what an Inevitable is, they are die-hard Determinators (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator). If you don't know what that is, imagine the Terminator from the first movie.

[noparlpf]

Do note the cycling Reincarnate like that is a very good way to get an Inevitable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) after you (specifically a Marut, the most dangerous version). If you don't know what an Inevitable is, they are die-hard Determinators (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator).If you don't know what that is, imagine the Terminator from the first movie.

We fought several Inevitables once, including a Marut, because our Planar Druid or whatever he was had gone and messed up Mechanus. We won. (This was at 16th level, I believe, so it's really wasn't too bad.)

[noparlpf]

I wouldn't consider it balanced for a 4th level druid spell though, and also highly improbable that a druid would prepare it unless part of a ritual execution and revival... could be some fluff if you're to use it like that though. Also claim that you rolled so you come back as a bugbear so -8/-4/-8/+5/+3/+3 score adjustments become +4/+2/+2/+5/+3/+3.

It's pretty balanced. It's only not 5th level like Revivify because your race changes, which can often be inconvenient. My Druids are usually primarily healers anyway, and use Wildshape and buffs for combat. The time I was the secondary healer, the Cleric went through several dozen races over a six night adventure. Another time when I was primary healer, we had two incredibly intolerant characters in the party, a ghost elf and a half-fey. They killed the human wizard in the party, and then when the ghost elf died and was brought back with Last Breath she was a human. So we tried again, and she was a human again. (I think the DM was just screwing with us at that point). So we had to leave the dungeon and go find someone who could use Miracle or whatever to fix her before we could continue the adventure. The moral of the story is, it's perfectly well-balanced if it can have such extensive negative in-game effects.

[Telonius]

Green Star Adept will allow you to live (essentially) forever. Unfortunately the half casting will make you wonder if the trade was worth it.

[Psyren]

our Planar Druid or whatever he was had gone and messed up Mechanus.


We won.

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you!

[noparlpf]

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you!

I believe there were two Maruts and one Kolyarut. We were a 16th level part of five, I think. I was playing a Stormcaster, we had a Planar Druidy guy from Limbo, a human Fighter, a half-orc Barbarian, and a Cleric of some sort. There might have been another guy running the Dread Pirate captain of the ship and his npc crew. I think his gun exploded.
The worst casualty was half of my levels from that bloody enervation ray, but the Cleric had a few Greater Restorations prepared for the day. It wasn't a very difficult encounter.

[big teej]

I'm making a wizard, and I'm trying to get as high an Int as I can(LA isn't allowed), and was looking at the aging effects. Other than Dragonwrought Kobold, are their any good ways to counter the negative effects of aging?

out of curiosity, have you cleared starting at an advanced age category with the DM?

I know I personally enforce starting within adulthood.

[noparlpf]

Why is it that by RAW you only ever get +1 to mental stats for aging, no matter how much life experience you accumulate? The only book with +2 and +3 for old and venerable is Races of the Wild, and I think that might have been a mistake.

[maximus25]

Just be a necropolitin. Do undead get aging bonuses? Because if so, that would be perfect.

[Amnestic]

I know I personally enforce starting within adulthood.

That may make sense if your campaigns only start at level 1-3 or so (and even then I'd question it), but if you're starting at higher levels - especially double digits - doesn't it stand to reason that more than a few adventurers took that long to get there?

[Ravens_cry]

Why is it that by RAW you only ever get +1 to mental stats for aging, no matter how much life experience you accumulate? The only book with +2 and +3 for old and venerable is Races of the Wild, and I think that might have been a mistake.
Um, you get more (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm).

With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative.
(Bolded and underlined for emphases.)
Cumulative (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cumulative): increasing by successive additions.

[noparlpf]

Um, you get more (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm).

(Bolded and underlined for emphases.)
Cumulative (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cumulative): increasing by successive additions.

OHHHH. I missed that line. Sweet deal.
So what's up with the Races of the Wild aging table? Do they get a total of +6 to mental stats at venerable age because it's +1, +2, +3 for the categories? Or do you think that's just a mistake?

[Ravens_cry]

OHHHH. I missed that line. Sweet deal.
So what's up with the Races of the Wild aging table? Do they get a total of +6 to mental stats at venerable age because it's +1, +2, +3 for the categories? Or do you think that's just a mistake?
I don't own that book, do they state it is a cumulative effect?

[Amnestic]

Races of the Wild does indeed have a different age penalty/benefit table. -1/+1 Middle Age, -2/+2 at Old and -3/+3 at Venerable, as opposed to the usual -1/+1, -2/+1, -3/+1.

Weird. The implicit assumption is that the races in the table (Catfolk, Centaur, Gnoll, Killoren, Raptoran) get extra aging benefits compared to every other race (in the same way that some interpret the PrC rules of Complete Warrior to only apply to PrCs therein). Most people would assume it's a printing error though. :smalltongue:

[Taelas]

No, it doesn't; they are not cumulative. The Races of the Wild races receive a lower total physical penalty than other races do (for no reason whatsoever, it seems to me).

[noparlpf]

I don't own that book, do they state it is a cumulative effect?

They don't say.

Also, does this mean that the potentially immortal killoren don't gain any life experience after they become old? I would allow them to continue and gain the venerable bonus at, say, 300 years of age. Of course, things like that also require either extensive backstories or very, very, long campaigns.

[Taelas]

Aging effects are not necessarily "life experiences".

You need to remove that, asap.

[noparlpf]

You need to remove that, asap.

Done. After I scanned it I realized that was probably copyright infringement. Thanks for confirming that.

[Ravens_cry]

Races of the Wild does indeed have a different age penalty/benefit table. -1/+1 Middle Age, -2/+2 at Old and -3/+3 at Venerable, as opposed to the usual -1/+1, -2/+1, -3/+1.

Weird. The implicit assumption is that the races in the table (Catfolk, Centaur, Gnoll, Killoren, Raptoran) get extra aging benefits compared to every other race (in the same way that some interpret the PrC rules of Complete Warrior to only apply to PrCs therein). Most people would assume it's a printing error though. :smalltongue:
Either that or these 'wild' races rugged lifestyle forces them to keep up their strength, even as they age, been less able to depend on others of their kind to take care of them in their old age the way more civilized races can.
Or yeah, printing/editing error.
But if it doesn't say it is cumulative, it's not cumulative, noparlpf.

[noparlpf]

Does anybody know where the ages are in Races of Eberron? Or are changelings and shifters just assumed to live forever?

[Psyren]

Does anybody know where the ages are in Races of Eberron? Or are changelings and shifters just assumed to live forever?

Actually, the ages are in ECS, pg. 27. Changelings are about the same as humans, Shifters last just a little longer than that, and Kalashtar are a little more long-lived than half-elves.

Warforged get to Middle Aged and stop, it seems.

[noparlpf]

How do warforged even get to middle-aged? They're constructs...

Thanks for the source.

[Psyren]

How do warforged even get to middle-aged? They're constructs...

Their bodies are a mix of living material and metals/minerals. They're not pure constructs - for one thing, they have a Con score.

[noparlpf]

Their bodies are a mix of living material and metals/minerals. They're not pure constructs - for one thing, they have a Con score.

Do they? I haven't read their racial traits in a long time, I forgot. But why do you think they don't reach old age? Living matter decays.

[Ravens_cry]

Do they? I haven't read their racial traits in a long time, I forgot. But why do you think they don't reach old age? Living matter decays.
The living matter is basically wood and trees can live a. Long. Time.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristlecone_pine)

[Psyren]

Do they? I haven't read their racial traits in a long time, I forgot.

Yes, they do - as do all living constructs. This has both good and bad repercussions for them. (It lets them use Incarnum though, so I call it a net win.)


But why do you think they don't reach old age? Living matter decays.

According to ECS, they hit Middle Aged at 150, and have no more age categories after that. So it seems that their living components can only decay to a certain degree (even magically) and no further.

They also have no maximum age - which is why they are immortal.