Buffy Season I Finale [spoilers]

[rakkoon]

Okay, I had a slight fever and started thinking about the end of season one (hence the spoilers). SM Gellar is always talking about the two levels in the series so I tried that and have a problem:

Buffy, 16 year old girl, is in love with a college guy (Angel).
The age difference feels like a 100 years.
She isn't asked to the prom by Angel so feels like she's going to die (codex = her diary).
She is asked by the geeky friend (Xander) buy shoots him down.
She eventually goes to the prom with the most dangerous guy around (The Master) who kisses her once and drops her. She feels likes she died.
BUT THEN
Xander goes to Angel, tells him he's an idiot and needs to go to Buffy. They find her dead and XANDER kisses her back to life, she feels better then ever and goes to the prom with Angel.

So I don't understand why Angel didn't kiss her.
"I have no breath" is a lousy reason in-game but even on another level I don't get it.
Why does she feel much better after Xander kisses her?

[Vacant]

Wait until you get to the drug/alcohol allegories. Just wait.

Yeah, really, it doesn't always work, at least not perfectly, and I think that's one of those times. Or one of the early signs that Angel is a doof.

[rakkoon]

Oh I got those the last time. They mix metaphors quite a bit later on. I especially hate the interpretation of Oz on this level but hey. So you think they just goofed on the Xander kiss of life situation?

[Vacant]

Yeah, pretty much. I don't know if I'd say goofed, since I think they were just more concerned with adding Xander/Angel tensions than with the whole allegory making sense and, from that perspective, it makes sense. I mean, as you said, either Angel should've been the one to kiss her, or she should have realized that Xander was the better choice and gone with him after he kissed her where Angel refused.

[Tirian]

Yeah, vampires not breathing was a goof, since Spike and Angelus both smoke. If anything, getting mouth-to-mouth from a vampire would be better since they wouldn't use any of the oxygen themselves.

Anyway, the first season was just for practice.

[KillianHawkeye]

He was giving her CPR. Because she drowned face down in a pool of water.

Also, 15 years ago is past the need to spoiler.

[Traab]

Yeah, vampires not breathing was a goof, since Spike and Angelus both smoke. If anything, getting mouth-to-mouth from a vampire would be better since they wouldn't use any of the oxygen themselves.

Anyway, the first season was just for practice.

THIS! This this a MILLION times this! OBVIOUSLY Angel is capable of breathing, otherwise, how the HELL is he able to SPEAK?! And just like you said, his body is DEAD, so a vamp giving mouth to mouth would be BETTER because thats pure air being delivered, not recycled air from someone whose body already drained most of the useable stuff when they inhaled it themselves. He is like an automated oxygen machine. Hell, theoretically, a vampire giving mouth to mouth could keep it up longer before brain damage due to delivering more oxygen each time than a regular human would.

In all honesty, i think it was more meant for us to see the clear devotion xander has, right from the start, for buffy, perhaps a comment on angels inherent cowardice since he had to be basically forced to go there and then didnt do much of value. Xander was pretty much always the ordinary man who does his best to make a difference, even though there isnt anything special about him, power wise. Even early willow was the brainy one and could help on research. Then later got into hacking, then magic. But there is xander, proving you dont have to be super to be a hero, or some such platitude.

[rakkoon]

Hmm, so that since Angel has dead feelings, only the vitality of Xander can jumpstart her feelings. I like that.

Pff, better one spoiler too many then one too few. I found out way too much before the end of the series.

[warty goblin]

It's not unreasonable to interpret it as an early indication that Angel realizes it'll never work and thus, being the broody thing he is, shies away from the perfect savior role.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

Really, to me, it seems like the perfect ending. Think about the message the story is trying to tell: Xander is the one that liked Buffy all along, the one that is willing to be her friend even though she rejects him. That's why Xander has to be the one who saves her - he's the dependable one. I don't think, however, that his CPR is supposed to be a kiss. I think it's a metaphor for him picking her up again and giving her hope when she was feeling down. The point is, Angel has the ability to kiss her, but when it comes to CPR (i.e., supporting her and giving her strength), then you need someone with a stronger emotional connection, which in this case, is Xander.

[Eldan]

So I don't understand why Angel didn't kiss her.
"I have no breath" is a lousy reason in-game but even on another level I don't get it.
Why does she feel much better after Xander kisses her?

Duh. Angel's gay, of course. :smallwink:

[McStabbington]

Or it could just mean that Xander is the Ducky of Generation Y. . .:smallconfused:

[KillianHawkeye]

Duh. Angel's gay, of course. :smallwink:

The men in this show have such bad luck with first impressions.... :smallsigh:

[Lyesmith]

The men in this show have such bad luck with first impressions.... :smallsigh:

To be fair, him and Spike were intimate, that one time.

[Traab]

To be fair, him and Spike were intimate, that one time.

Only because they were all drunk and druscilla and darla thought it would be hot. :p

[Vacant]

{Scrubbed}

[rakkoon]

Which episode would that be?

[Xondoure]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Spike complaining about Angel's hairproducts. I always thought that should be backwards.

[thompur]

Which episode would that be?

Harsh Light of Day. Third episode of the first season. Spike tortures Angel. The first Buffy/Angel cross-over.

And no, it is not the only good scene in the show. Not as long as there is Smile Time.:smallbiggrin:

[rakkoon]

Aha, so some more goodness to look forward too. Seen most episodes four times but I still chuckle at some lines. I didn't really enjoy 'Angel' unfortunately, started to like the last two seasons but not the early ones.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Most of the plot holes with the vampire breathing thing can be easily explained by the fact that Angel is a frickin' moron.

[KillianHawkeye]

Most of the plot holes with the vampire breathing thing can be easily explained by the fact that Angel is a frickin' moron.

Well, he was born in the 1700s, and he was dead for most of his life. You can't really expect him to have an understanding of modern medical practices.

[Tirian]

Well, he was born in the 1700s, and he was dead for most of his life. You can't really expect him to have an understanding of modern medical practices.

That's a fair point. Artificial respiration only came into public use in the 1950's, so it all happened when Angel was up to his eyeballs in full-on gypsy curse emo.

[rakkoon]

Yeah, he does seem more relaxed as Angelus. Perhaps he should take a yearly holiday and go kill some people in an inventive way, just to get some stress out of his system?

[Traab]

Yeah, he does seem more relaxed as Angelus. Perhaps he should take a yearly holiday and go kill some people in an inventive way, just to get some stress out of his system?

He was more relaxed because he just got some hot lovin earlier from buffy. Being pent up after the hundred or so years he was without "happiness" would make anyone act a little off. Im personally surprised we didnt get a scene like from Scary Movie where they get locked in the freezer. And yes im a horrible dirty man, but that scene was hilarious.

[Tazar]

Why all the Angel hate? Sure, it's not quite as good as Buffy, but it's still a damn good show. Wesley's character arc ranks second only to Willow's as the best in the entire Buffyverse, Fred is hilariously adorable, and Illyria is just downright awesome. She's one of my favorite Buffyverse characters. I lament the loss of Angel Season 6, as Illyria's character development had potential to outstrip even Wesley's and Willow's in terms of sheer depth and meaning.

Regarding Xander doing the CPR, the line itself is likely a goof, but at the same time I don't think it's unreasonable for Angel to have the human do it. We know that human-on-human CPR works; there's no documentation to suggest how vampire-on-human CPR works, or even if vampires actually need to inhale to talk. As such, Xander is the logical choice here.

[Traab]

I loved the show Angel. Some seasons were better than others. I liked doyle and his dynamic with cordy, and was unhappy he died. I HATED wes at first, the whole, "rogue demon hunter" crap sucked. When he went all firearm happy I started liking him better. Fred was the best. I loved her character. I loved her as jumpy crazy girl, I loved her as shy girl, I loved her as miss wolfram and hart science chick, and I loved her as illieria. She was quite frankly the best character on the entire show imo. Cordellia had a lot of potential, but I think she was killed shortly after she started to get really good. Gunn? Meh, he was kinda generic black thug to me, but he got better as the series went on. Angel was cool at times, and at times he was so stupidly emo and guilt ridden that I hated him. And I for one thought the series finale was the most badass ending ever. Screw happy endings, it was a suicide run, they knew it, they accepted it, and they ran face first into it.

[Tazar]

Fred was absolutely my favorite character as well. I loved her insane babbling from her very first crazed rant towards Angel right after he rescues her from being executed. Fred and Willow interacting in "Orpheus" was simply awesome; seeing my two favorite characters from each show being hilarious together was extremely enjoyable.

I agree that "Not Fade Away" was incredibly badass; "Chosen" was good, but "Not Fade Away" definitely trumps it. Just amazing.


That said, there's no way they're all dying in that alley. Angel? Sure, his arc is done and he's ready for it. But Spike's far too contrary to die again without even seeing Buffy first. :smalltongue: Also, Illyria is just plain badass enough to fight her way clear. Angel and Gunn might bite it, but Spike and Illyria still have too much potential to die there.

Man, I really wish we had seen more of Illyria. Damn you for insisting on early renewal, Joss!

[Traab]

Oh come on They were facing an army of demons and at least one freaking DRAGON! They were all dead, MAYBE Illyra could survive, but the rest were dead meat. This was an obliteration force, not some random crew of bad guys to fight.

[Weezer]

Why all the Angel hate?

I don't hate the show Angel, I just hate Angel. He just bothers me on so many levels. Saying that my love of his supporting characters, Fred and Wes primarially, makes me still like the show. I can say much the same of Buffy in fact, I really don't like Buffy as a character but Giles, xander, Willow, Spike, Tara and Oz made the show awesome.

[Talya]

I don't find the character Angel to be interesting enough to hate.

He's just there. He's better in his own show than he was in Buffy but he's still not all that interesting. Spike had him beat in every possible way when it comes to interesting vampire characters.

[Tazar]

Oh come on They were facing an army of demons and at least one freaking DRAGON! They were all dead, MAYBE Illyra could survive, but the rest were dead meat. This was an obliteration force, not some random crew of bad guys to fight.

I hate to resort to the comics for support, as I generally regard them as non-canon at best, but

Angel: After the Fall had them as surviving it.
And c'mon, a couple hundred demons and a dragon, what's that to Spike? :smalltongue:

[Traab]

I hate to resort to the comics for support, as I generally regard them as non-canon at best, but

Angel: After the Fall had them as surviving it.
And c'mon, a couple hundred demons and a dragon, what's that to Spike? :smalltongue:

Deadly? :smallbiggrin: And honestly, that ruins everything in my mind. The whole POINT of the finale to me was angel and crew knowing they would get stomped flat, knowing they were going to die after doing this, but choosing to do it anyway just for the chance to damage the forces of evil, even if only temporarily. Instead of playing along with the balance, they chose to sacrifice themselves to cause real damage instead of getting minor victory after minor victory. Them running headlong into death after achieving their goals just felt right to me. Them SURVIVING this? Not so much. The fact that the senior partners even brought in those forces at the alley proves to me that they could bring more. And more, and more, until angels surviving crew chokes to death on their carcasses.

[Tazar]

Deadly? :smallbiggrin: And honestly, that ruins everything in my mind. The whole POINT of the finale to me was angel and crew knowing they would get stomped flat, knowing they were going to die after doing this, but choosing to do it anyway just for the chance to damage the forces of evil, even if only temporarily. Instead of playing along with the balance, they chose to sacrifice themselves to cause real damage instead of getting minor victory after minor victory. Them running headlong into death after achieving their goals just felt right to me. Them SURVIVING this? Not so much. The fact that the senior partners even brought in those forces at the alley proves to me that they could bring more. And more, and more, until angels surviving crew chokes to death on their carcasses.

That's the great thing about the Angel finale, I think. It makes a really badass closing statement while still allowing for plenty of room to imagine what's going to happen next. :smallsmile:

[rakkoon]

I don't hate Angel. It's just that Doyle could have been such a great character but didn't get the time to develop. Angel himself is dark and broody and that just doesn't work with a main character. Also the thousands of references to the word "Champion" kept me screaming at the screen "We're not playing a wargame!". Gun was supposed to be the tough guy and keeps getting beat up by every single vampire they meet, how did he ever survive to get this old? And Wes versus Giles, come on people, why go for the extra light version when you can have the full flavour one :smallwink:
Fred was fabulous, Cordelia got some very good episodes, Lorne was fun, Conner was cool and the Wolfram and heart years were just great. Too bad it ended there when I was just getting into the series.

[Tazar]

I actually thought Angel on his titular program was rather different from Angel as he appeared on Buffy. Certainly, there was plenty of darkness and brooding (which actually does work in a main character, I think :smalltongue: ) but Angel was often genuinely funny. His reactions to the constantly-running eunuch jokes, the pink helmet, and his hesitant and off-guard yet stubborn responses to a lot of things are just great. He was quite funny on Angel, I thought.

I love both Giles and Wes, but calling Wes "Giles lite" simply isn't a fair assessment of his character. Wes has what is possibly the darkest, and certainly one of the best, character arcs of the entire Buffyverse. Sure, he starts out as a bumbling Giles wannabe, but by the time of "Not Fade Away" he's evolved into so much more. Wes exemplifies the magnificence that is Whedonverse character development at its absolute finest.

[rakkoon]

To be honest I missed a couple of seasons so I only saw Wes in the beginning so it is certainly possible that he becomes more interesting later on.

[Eldan]

How to describe it...

Angel felt like the most boring parts of Buffy, spread out over five seasons. By which I mean you have potentially interesting characters in potentially interesting worlds, with nothing even remotely interesting todo for them except moan at each other how horrible life is.
In addition to that, yes, Angel is boring.

[KillianHawkeye]

How to describe it...

Angel felt like the most boring parts of Buffy, spread out over five seasons. By which I mean you have potentially interesting characters in potentially interesting worlds, with nothing even remotely interesting todo for them except moan at each other how horrible life is.
In addition to that, yes, Angel is boring.

Funny, because I usually describe Angel (the show) as being like Buffy, but instead of crying there is just more fight scenes. :smallbiggrin:

(I consider this to be an improvement, if you couldn't tell.)

[Talya]

I don't hate Angel. It's just that Doyle could have been such a great character but didn't get the time to develop.

If Glenn Quinn hadn't kept coming in to work stoned on heroine, we would have gotten a lot more of Doyle. Sadly, he died of a drug overdose three years after getting fired.


As for the Angel series finale...

...I never assumed they died. It didn't even occur to me that Angel and company died. Since when do they not find a way to triumph?

[Yora]

Actually, I liked Angel. It's not that great a show, but I never thought it was boring.

[Traab]

Hey Rak, as far as Gunn goes, I always looked at him as the xander of this series. By that I mean he has no special powers, he is just going out and doing his best to fight the good fight. He may be tough compared to regular humans, but vamps and most demons are supposed to be several times stronger than normal humans, so I understand him getting flung around a lot, and dont think of it as a worf effect.

And how he survived was by working with a large gang of like minded individuals who used to go out mob handed and wipe out vamp nests. And they took losses. Quite a few losses in fact. Personally, that makes them more impressive in my mind than it does angel and crew who are this invincible by plot armor crew of "champions" Then they had to screw it up by turning the gang bloodthirsty and randomly slaughtering everything not human they could find because of some nasty piece of work who took over.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

So I don't understand why Angel didn't kiss her.
"I have no breath" is a lousy reason in-game but even on another level I don't get it.
Why does she feel much better after Xander kisses her?

Wibbly-Wobbly-Vampy-Wampy. He's a demon running around wearing a corpse; clearly his inherent evilness corrupts his breath, making it useless when trying to revive someone.


... I can say much the same of Buffy in fact, I really don't like Buffy as a character but Giles, xander, Willow, Spike, Tara and Oz made the show awesome.

No love for Dawn?

[Yora]

Xander was an interesting character who allowed to look at the events from a different perspective.
Gunn wasn't. He always felt more like a reoccuring character than a member of the main cast. He lacked any meaningful relationship to Angel, who was the focal point of the entire show.

[Talya]

Angel and Gunn were the only regular characters to survive the show from beginning to end. (I don't count Spike, he was only a regular in season 5.) Although Gunn gets vamped shortly after the series ends. Although I think that gets undone somehow later...

My favorite characters (recurring or regular) in Angel are Lorne, Lindsay, Fred and Spike. Notice how Angel and Gunn aren't in that list.

[Starbuck_II]

Xander was an interesting character who allowed to look at the events from a different perspective.
Gunn wasn't. He always felt more like a reoccuring character than a member of the main cast. He lacked any meaningful relationship to Angel, who was the focal point of the entire show.

Nah, he showed that non-trained people who didn't hang with a slayer were fighting the demons.

This has been a reoccuring them on the shows.
In Buffy, we saw the military dudes (ADAM, etc).
In Angel, we saw Gunn and his gang.

[Eldan]

Interesting. I saw Angel maybe three years ago, and I don't remember Gunn at all. I even looked up how he looks, and I don't remember him.

[warty goblin]

Also the thousands of references to the word "Champion" kept me screaming at the screen "We're not playing a wargame!".

You do know that 'champion' does not come from wargames right? Since its meaning boils down to one who fights - often physically - usually for a cause or someone else, I think it describes Angel quite well.

[Weezer]

No love for Dawn?

No. No love at all. She's even worse than Buffy in my eyes. What the writers were thinking when they thought it was a good idea to magically retcon in an annoying little sister is beyond me. She was even whinier than Buffy without the bonus of kicking ass.

[Starbuck_II]

No. No love at all. She's even worse than Buffy in my eyes. What the writers were thinking when they thought it was a good idea to magically retcon in an annoying little sister is beyond me. She was even whinier than Buffy without the bonus of kicking ass.

Dawn had a great actor though (loved her from Pete and Pete).
I didn't like the stealing arc: it made me dislike her chararacter.

[Kobold-Bard]

No. No love at all. She's even worse than Buffy in my eyes. What the writers were thinking when they thought it was a good idea to magically retcon in an annoying little sister is beyond me. ...

The doctor (aka the writers) in the weird asylum episode tells Buffy's parents (aka the viewers); in her "imaginary world" her mum died & she created a sister to make up for the lack of family.

They were killing off Joyce but needed Buffy to still have a familial connection so she didn't go all brooding loner & become Angel 2.0. Since her dad had been established as a deadbeat & she was an only child it was either retcon a sibling in with magic or introduce a real Long Lost relative (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LongLostRelative).

It was a crap storyline, but out of the two I reckon it was the lesser of two evils.

[Tazar]

I actually thought that the basic idea behind the Dawn storyline was pretty decent; she just got to be somewhat irritating (much like Connor in Angel S4) due to the writers making her a reclusive kleptomaniac in S6.

In S5 she was bearable though (her interactions with Spike were great) and in S7 I actually quite liked her.

Glory definitely remains the most flat-out terrifying of any of the Buffy Big Bads, though; she was simply relentless. In seven years of the show, nobody else ever managed to make Buffy go into a full-on retreat. That was truly shocking.

[Weezer]

Dawn had a great actor though (loved her from Pete and Pete).
I didn't like the stealing arc: it made me dislike her chararacter.
Never seen her in anything else, so I wouldn't know.

The doctor (aka the writers) in the weird asylum episode tells Buffy's parents (aka the viewers); in her "imaginary world" her mum died & she created a sister to make up for the lack of family.

They were killing off Joyce but needed Buffy to still have a familial connection so she didn't go all brooding loner & become Angel 2.0. Since her dad had been established as a deadbeat & she was an only child it was either retcon a sibling in with magic or introduce a real Long Lost relative (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LongLostRelative).

It was a crap storyline, but out of the two I reckon it was the lesser of two evils.

If Dawn's character was a little better and not near as annoying I would be a bit more prone to accept that they had to make her appear for plot reasons, but as it is I feel they just did a very bad job at implementing what was a crap storyline to begin with.

[Talya]

What's annoying about being a typical mixed up teenager?

I mean, to the viewer. Teenagers are, of course, annoying IRL.

[Tazar]

What's annoying about being a typical mixed up teenager?

I mean, to the viewer. Teenagers are, of course, annoying IRL.

I can only listen to "Get out, get out GET OUT!!" so many times. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

I liked the crush she had on xander. I thought it was well acted. She really did seem like a young girl getting into the boy crazy phase, who locked onto the older guy who was always nice to her and didnt treat her like a baby like most of buffys friends tended to.

[averagejoe]

I don't hate Angel. It's just that Doyle could have been such a great character but didn't get the time to develop. Angel himself is dark and broody and that just doesn't work with a main character. Also the thousands of references to the word "Champion" kept me screaming at the screen "We're not playing a wargame!". Gun was supposed to be the tough guy and keeps getting beat up by every single vampire they meet, how did he ever survive to get this old? And Wes versus Giles, come on people, why go for the extra light version when you can have the full flavour one :smallwink:
Fred was fabulous, Cordelia got some very good episodes, Lorne was fun, Conner was cool and the Wolfram and heart years were just great. Too bad it ended there when I was just getting into the series.

To me that had always been the appeal of Angel. You have Angel (kinda like Buffy, but weaker), Doyle/Wes (Kinda like Giles, but not nearly as cool/competent) and Cordy (Similar in role to Xander, but... well, Cordy) and throw them all into a situation that is, in many ways, much more deadly than Buffy's because of how often it deals with themes of soul salvation and the like. It was Sunnydale's B-team facing down adversaries that often couldn't be fought, or were too great to fight against. Angel's world had a sense of bigness to it that Buffy never really matched.

This is just season 1, which is the only season I've really watched all the way through. I understand the show had some low points, but I was surprised at how impressed I was with that one.

[Tazar]

If you liked Season One, you seriously need to continue watching.

I know I've been harping on about this, but Wesley's character arc is absolutely magnificent; Willow's is the only one in the entire Whedonverse that I'd consider better. If you've only seen Season 1 Wesley, you are seriously missing out.

Plus, you don't even get to the awesomeness that is Lorne and Fred until S2, and Illyria only pops up in S5.

[Traab]

Lorne is cool, and I love how he slowly creeps away from neutral empath there to let us giggle as angel is forced to sing, to right there alongside angel and crew by the end.

[Tazar]

Lorne is cool, and I love how he slowly creeps away from neutral empath there to let us giggle as angel is forced to sing, to right there alongside angel and crew by the end.

It really is excellent character development. Plus, listening to him sing was always a delight.

Season 5 of Angel might just be my favorite. Illyria playing Crash Bandicoot left me in stitches. Pure awesome. Plus, it's got Jayne from Firefly as a legitimately awesome villain; what's not to love?

[Traab]

Honestly, the only character that didnt really develop much was Gunn. From his introduction to the time he was part of wolfram and hart, he was just, there. Even then he didnt evolve all that much, he got lawyer powers that let him wear a suit and talk into a cell phone, big fat hairy deal. His dealing with the lawyer abilities being temporary was interesting I guess, but he just didnt grow much as a character. *EDIT* Also, the actor who played lorne, was he a known singer? Or just some actor with a decent voice?

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Re: Season 1 Finale -
One of the best moments in the series came in this episode. Buffy's speech in the library was classic awesomeness. The CPR scene was kinda well, lame. "I have no breath"... need I say more? Angel as a character took a while to get to someone that I liked, and then WHAM - EVIL. Greatness.

Re: Dawn -
Lost potential. What came out of that character during the 6th season was sad. The theft, pure unrelenting anger at Buffy, ugh. Was not liking the character much until season 7. Her "wake up on fire" comment to Spike was funny, in a WTF kind of way. Dawn did get better as a character as the season wore on. In S5 she was written as a bratty kid. Fans can't blame Michelle Trachtenberg as an actress for what happened with Dawn. Not all teenagers are annoying; I was deeply saddened that Dawn was written that way. True they have their moments of annoyance, even pure white hot frustration, but not constantly like it was portrayed with Dawn. Buffy, Cordy, Xander, Willow, and the other teenagers were not written that way. Well, not to the level Dawn was.

Re: Buffy's parents -
Joyce was the classic clueless mom in the first couple of seasons. She was a good single mother trying to raise a child (well, 2 at some point). When she was killed off, it really shocked me, and therefore created one of the best hours of television in history. Her dad was depicted as a deadbeat, but that's not fair to his character. Not enough screen time to make a decision.

[Tazar]

Honestly, the only character that didnt really develop much was Gunn. From his introduction to the time he was part of wolfram and hart, he was just, there. Even then he didnt evolve all that much, he got lawyer powers that let him wear a suit and talk into a cell phone, big fat hairy deal. His dealing with the lawyer abilities being temporary was interesting I guess, but he just didnt grow much as a character. *EDIT* Also, the actor who played lorne, was he a known singer? Or just some actor with a decent voice?

He actually grew quite a bit following the events of Illyria's rise.

[Starbuck_II]

Honestly, the only character that didnt really develop much was Gunn. From his introduction to the time he was part of wolfram and hart, he was just, there. Even then he didnt evolve all that much, he got lawyer powers that let him wear a suit and talk into a cell phone, big fat hairy deal. His dealing with the lawyer abilities being temporary was interesting I guess, but he just didnt grow much as a character. *EDIT* Also, the actor who played lorne, was he a known singer? Or just some actor with a decent voice?
Gunn not changing was the reason he became a lawyer he never got an education. He was a thug trying to adapt. He took the easy way out. He always did. And in the end it cost Fred.

As an aside on Buffy:
I didn't like Terra taking Oz's girlfriend in Buffyverse.
I know they hinted Willow might go Lez with alternate universe Vamp Willow, but still thought Oz and her should have a chance.

[Tazar]

Seth Green was leaving the show, so they didn't really have much of a choice.

I'd have liked it if Oz hung around a while longer as he was sheer awesomeness, but equally, her involvement with Tara represented an extremely important facet of Willow's character development.

[Traab]

What was awesome about Oz? He said little, did little, and his sole use was deadpan one liners once in a great while. Oh, and their werewolves look stupid. About the best he ever did was in going back and forth with xander on comic book geekery. (An argument about kryptonite)

On another note, the entire buffy universe seemed to revolve around good guys suffering. Nobody can have a good relationship, they always end badly. All the norms seem to be against them, (even if it turns out snyder had a reason) It got to the point where id cringe any time something good happened because I just knew that someone was going to suffer terribly for it. Any time buffy started to get a handle on things, something would come along and crush her. Evil angel, mom kicks her out, mom dies, sister is a mystic key that will tear down dimensions, she got torn from heaven and forced to be reborn, it just SUCKED to be buffy on every level!

[Weezer]

Gunn not changing was the reason he became a lawyer he never got an education. He was a thug trying to adapt. He took the easy way out. He always did. And in the end it cost Fred.

As an aside on Buffy:
I didn't like Terra taking Oz's girlfriend in Buffyverse.
I know they hinted Willow might go Lez with alternate universe Vamp Willow, but still thought Oz and her should have a chance.

As Tazar said, Seth Green had other projects he wanted to work on. I kind of agree with you though, I liked the dynamic he had with Willow far more than Tara's, Oz was sarcastic, witty and intelligent and served as a good foil for Willow. Tara on the other hand was just nice, there wasn't much to her beyond that. (not to say that niceness is bad, but it's not as interesting to watch.)

[Tazar]

Yeah, I preferred Oz/Willow to Tara/Willow because I feel Oz actually would've stood up to Willow regarding her rampant abuse of her magical abilities. I preferred their dynamic overall, but I quite liked Willow/Tara as well, and as mentioned I feel Tara was rather crucial to Willow's development as a character.

And is somebody actually questioning Oz's awesomeness? :smalleek:
Oz is fantastic. He's a character who manages to be laconic and yet hilarious in a show characterized by its remarkably verbose and witty characters.

As mentioned, his sarcasm was great and his overall laid-back personality clashed amazingly well with average events in the Buffyverse, which were anything but laid back.

Who can forget the great Hummus Offensive?

[Talya]

Yeah, I preferred Oz/Willow to Tara/Willow because I feel Oz actually would've stood up to Willow regarding her rampant abuse of her magical abilities.
Actually, I suspect he'd have encouraged her to use those abilities in responsible ways. Tara did stand up to Willow, and caused Willow to repress her abilities. Willow had more magical potential than anyone ever had before or would again. She could no more stop using magic than Buffy could simply stop being a Slayer - it was in her blood. Sadly, though Tara did what she did in Willow's best interests, she was wrong...and it nearly cost the entire world.

[Tazar]

Actually, I suspect he'd have encouraged her to use those abilities in responsible ways. Tara did stand up to Willow, and caused Willow to repress her abilities. Willow had more magical potential than anyone ever had before or would again. She could no more stop using magic than Buffy could simply stop being a Slayer - it was in her blood. Sadly, though Tara did what she did in Willow's best interests, she was wrong...and it nearly cost the entire world.


Tara did stand up to her, it's true, but unfortunately by the time she did it was too little, too late. I'm also inclined to agree; what Willow needed was not to go cold turkey on her powers, but rather to learn to channel and control them. As Oz said, he'd have her back either way, but he certainly would've ensured she used her powers properly, I concur.

[Weezer]

Tara did stand up to her, it's true, but unfortunately by the time she did it was too little, too late. I'm also inclined to agree; what Willow needed was not to go cold turkey on her powers, but rather to learn to channel and control them. As Oz said, he'd have her back either way, but he certainly would've ensured she used her powers properly, I concur.


I think he would've viewed them in much the same way he viewed his werewolf transformation, as something that can not be removed but must instead be controlled.

[Velaryon]

Honestly, the only character that didnt really develop much was Gunn. From his introduction to the time he was part of wolfram and hart, he was just, there. Even then he didnt evolve all that much, he got lawyer powers that let him wear a suit and talk into a cell phone, big fat hairy deal. His dealing with the lawyer abilities being temporary was interesting I guess, but he just didnt grow much as a character. *EDIT* Also, the actor who played lorne, was he a known singer? Or just some actor with a decent voice?

I always got the sense that the writers were really struggling for something to do with Gunn. When he was first introduced as the "badass normal" of the show, he was pretty cool. And if he had remained simply an occasional contact, a recurring character for Angel to call on when he needed a little extra force for a particular battle, he'd have been fine in that role.

But when Gunn became a part of the main cast, he needed to develop some extra depth. And I feel like the writers were never quite sure how to do that. The love triangle between Gunn, Fred, and Wes added some emotional depth, but it really didn't help him establish his role within the group.

I think the writers were always kind of stuck in that respect, and having that come through in-character in season 5 was a very good move. At that point, Gunn has really been floundering to establish himself as something more than just another pair of hands on the team, so he gets a new skill-set literally grafted onto him. Considering the difficulty they seemed to have in finding Gunn's place on the show, I think they played that struggle to perfection by making it such an important part of his character, especially near the end.

[Kobold-Bard]

Not exactly on topic, but I just finally finished Angel (so it sort of counts, if you can stretch it to Buffyverse season finale in generals).

****in' Harmony :smallannoyed:

[Traab]

You know, the more I think about it, neither btvs or angel were very racially diverse. Especially buffy. Aside from kendra, the only non white cast member I can think of off hand was mister trick. No permanent, or even semi regular cast members. There were a couple of single episode non white actors like one of giles lady friends, or the inca mummy girl, or the two slayers spike killed but thats about it. Makes me wonder if thats why they even bothered including Gunn at all in Angel. Maybe there were complaints?

[Tirian]

You know, the more I think about it, neither btvs or angel were very racially diverse. Especially buffy. Aside from kendra, the only non white cast member I can think of off hand was mister trick. No permanent, or even semi regular cast members. There were a couple of single episode non white actors like one of giles lady friends, or the inca mummy girl, or the two slayers spike killed but thats about it. Makes me wonder if thats why they even bothered including Gunn at all in Angel. Maybe there were complaints?

You're forgetting about Robin Wood, who is the closest thing I can think of to someone who had sex with a central cast member without dying. (I'm counting what they did to Oz's character as worse than dying.)

[Traab]

You're forgetting about Robin Wood, who is the closest thing I can think of to someone who had sex with a central cast member without dying. (I'm counting what they did to Oz's character as worse than dying.)

I forget what the deal was with him? Iirc, his mom was the second slayer spike killed, but I dont recall what he did in the show itself.

[Starbuck_II]

I forget what the deal was with him? Iirc, his mom was the second slayer spike killed, but I dont recall what he did in the show itself.

He was the new Principal (when Dawn when to school) before the school got destroyed or something.

[Tirian]

He was the new Principal (when Dawn when to school) before the school got destroyed or something.

The school was destroyed at the end of Season 3, and rebuilt for the start of Season 7. It would perhaps be an understatement to say that the school was destroyed at the end of Season 7.

Buffy's diversity problems are hinted at by the relative lack of African-Americans, but what is truly shocking is that a major city in Southern California is utterly devoid of Hispanics and Asians.

[Tazar]

You know, the more I think about it, neither btvs or angel were very racially diverse. Especially buffy. Aside from kendra, the only non white cast member I can think of off hand was mister trick. No permanent, or even semi regular cast members. There were a couple of single episode non white actors like one of giles lady friends, or the inca mummy girl, or the two slayers spike killed but thats about it. Makes me wonder if thats why they even bothered including Gunn at all in Angel. Maybe there were complaints?

Cordelia was supposed to be African-American (in fact, the actress who plays Kendra was cast as her originally) but something happened and Charisma Carpenter was cast in the role instead.

[The Extinguisher]

What was awesome about Oz? He said little, did little, and his sole use was deadpan one liners once in a great while. Oh, and their werewolves look stupid. About the best he ever did was in going back and forth with xander on comic book geekery. (An argument about kryptonite)

On another note, the entire buffy universe seemed to revolve around good guys suffering. Nobody can have a good relationship, they always end badly. All the norms seem to be against them, (even if it turns out snyder had a reason) It got to the point where id cringe any time something good happened because I just knew that someone was going to suffer terribly for it. Any time buffy started to get a handle on things, something would come along and crush her. Evil angel, mom kicks her out, mom dies, sister is a mystic key that will tear down dimensions, she got torn from heaven and forced to be reborn, it just SUCKED to be buffy on every level!

That's more of a Joss Whedon thing than a Buffy thing.


You're forgetting about Robin Wood, who is the closest thing I can think of to someone who had sex with a central cast member without dying. (I'm counting what they did to Oz's character as worse than dying.)

Riley?
Faith?
Kennedy?

Just off the top of my head.

[Tazar]

Why is what happened to Oz's character "worse than dying"?

All that happened is he left to deal with his werewolf problem.

Somewhat tragic, sure, but hardly a fate worse than death.

[Tirian]

Why is what happened to Oz's character "worse than dying"?

All that happened is he left to deal with his werewolf problem.

Somewhat tragic, sure, but hardly a fate worse than death.

I'm thinking about the time he returned and went from the most mellow guy in town to conquering the lunar cycle but changing into a werewolf when realizing that his ex-girlfriend was now a lesbian. Maybe that's not the way everyone felt about it, but I think that the character would have been much better off had he not come back for that last guest appearance.

[rakkoon]

Well, he was a wife beater on the second level so that makes him slightly less cool.

[Tazar]

I'm thinking about the time he returned and went from the most mellow guy in town to conquering the lunar cycle but changing into a werewolf when realizing that his ex-girlfriend was now a lesbian. Maybe that's not the way everyone felt about it, but I think that the character would have been much better off had he not come back for that last guest appearance.

I honestly didn't have a problem with that; he experienced a loss of emotional control which was enough to cause him to revert into wolf form. While it's not a great thing, it's hardly surprising as Willow was the one thing that ever actually cause him to lose control emotionally.

[Stadge]

Honestly, the only character that didnt really develop much was Gunn. From his introduction to the time he was part of wolfram and hart, he was just, there. Even then he didnt evolve all that much, he got lawyer powers that let him wear a suit and talk into a cell phone, big fat hairy deal. His dealing with the lawyer abilities being temporary was interesting I guess, but he just didnt grow much as a character. *EDIT* Also, the actor who played lorne, was he a known singer? Or just some actor with a decent voice?

Andy Hallett, the actor who played Lorne, I don't know whether he was a proffessional singer or not, but I think that he was known to Whedon, and after hearing him sing in a bar, Joss created created the character of Lorne and invited Andy Hallett to try for the part. At least, that's what I think happened. I'll dig out my Lorne/Andy Hallett tribute comic, it'll probably say more.

[Traab]

Andy Hallett, the actor who played Lorne, I don't know whether he was a proffessional singer or not, but I think that he was known to Whedon, and after hearing him sing in a bar, Joss created created the character of Lorne and invited Andy Hallett to try for the part. At least, that's what I think happened. I'll dig out my Lorne/Andy Hallett tribute comic, it'll probably say more.

Either way, he did a damn fine job. If thats the case, then a made up on the spur of the moment character somehow managed to be one of the best on the show! lol I loved the whole idea of caritas, its like a cleaner version of Willys bar in sunnydale. :p A neutral place where you check the war between good and evil at the same time as your coat.

[Yora]

Lorne is fascinating because he's so completely camp, yet still the shows source of wisdom.

[Starbuck_II]

The school was destroyed at the end of Season 3, and rebuilt for the start of Season 7. It would perhaps be an understatement to say that the school was destroyed at the end of Season 7.

Buffy's diversity problems are hinted at by the relative lack of African-Americans, but what is truly shocking is that a major city in Southern California is utterly devoid of Hispanics and Asians.

No, I think all the hispanics in Buffy were vampires. I remember some black vampires in Buffy too.

Wow, I never thought about the fact that minorities were only seen as minions or mini bads (except a few vampire slayers who joined cast briefly).

[Talya]

No, I think all the hispanics in Buffy were vampires. I remember some black vampires in Buffy too.

Wow, I never thought about the fact that minorities were only seen as minions or mini bads (except a few vampire slayers who joined cast briefly).

So Sunnydale was not a racially diverse town. This is not an exactly uncommon thing in many places.

I'm not a fan of political correctness for the sake of political correctness.

[Tirian]

So Sunnydale was not a racially diverse town. This is not an exactly uncommon thing in many places.

I'm not a fan of political correctness for the sake of political correctness.

There is a line to be drawn between tokenism and tone-deafness. You'd notice if someone made a show that was set in a fictional Montreal that didn't have any French influence, right?

[Tazar]

Again, regarding racial diversity, Cordelia (an important recurring character on Buffy and a main character on Angel) was originally intended to be African-American; her race was changed due to casting necessities.

[Traab]

Again, regarding racial diversity, Cordelia (an important recurring character on Buffy and a main character on Angel) was originally intended to be African-American; her race was changed due to casting necessities.

And thus the entire main cast was white. With at best short timers who werent that tended to die or vanish rather quickly. How many episodes did kendra end up in before druscilla slit her throat? (most pathetic slayer death ever) Mister Trick, or whoever the black vamp was that worked for the mayor showed up from time to time, but he also didnt last a full season i dont think, and even for that season he didnt show up in every episode. Any other people of the non white persuasion showed up once then vanished or died.

It doesnt really matter what could have happened with the casting, what matters is what did happen. Every main character was white, the vast majority of the secondary characters was white, and an equally large portion of the temp roles were white.

Anyways, leaving aside the whole race thing, buffy and her various deaths. Were they mainly setup to give an excuse to end the series then, but got walked back after viewers wanted more?

[Tazar]

And thus the entire main cast was white. With at best short timers who werent that tended to die or vanish rather quickly. How many episodes did kendra end up in before druscilla slit her throat? (most pathetic slayer death ever)

What, so getting ganked by a massively powerful vampiric sorceress is a "pathetic death"? I beg to differ. :smalltongue:



Anyways, leaving aside the whole race thing, buffy and her various deaths. Were they mainly setup to give an excuse to end the series then, but got walked back after viewers wanted more?


Absolutely not. They knew they were getting renewed by the end of S5, Buffy died there because it was an incredibly poignant and emotionally powerful capstone to the series up to that date. "The Gift" is an absolutely phenomenal episode of television.

[Traab]

BAH! She got hypnotized and had her throat cut by FINGERNAILS! This wasnt some master vampire who did it either, this is some crazy chick with less than 200 years under her belt.

[Tazar]

BAH! She got hypnotized and had her throat cut by FINGERNAILS! This wasnt some master vampire who did it either, this is some crazy chick with less than 200 years under her belt.


Drusilla is one of the oldest living vampires on Buffy, and is never represented as anything less than extremely dangerous.
Saying Kendra's a chump for dying to Drusilla simply is not valid. Drusilla is a lethally powerful vampire with formidable mental powers. She's a badass.

If you need further proof of this, consider the fact that Drusilla is the only evil character vampire confirmed to survive the full runs of both Buffy and Angel.
.

[Traab]

How is she one of the oldest? Darla created angel, who later created druscilla. She is two generations removed from the oldest of the scourge of europe crew! And that doesnt even include REALLY old vamps like the master, or kakistos, who was so old he was turning into an actual cloven hoofed demon. Ill admit she was dangerous, but kendras death scene was pathetic. There should have been an actual FIGHT.

*EDIT* Just to restate, it isnt the fact that she died to dru that bugs me, its HOW she died. She went out like a chump, not a slayer. I mean, spike is even younger than dru and he killed two slayers in his career. But he at least fought the damn girls.

[Tazar]

How is she one of the oldest? Darla created angel, who later created druscilla. She is two generations removed from the oldest of the scourge of europe crew! And that doesnt even include REALLY old vamps like the master, or kakistos, who was so old he was turning into an actual cloven hoofed demon. Ill admit she was dangerous, but kendras death scene was pathetic. There should have been an actual FIGHT.


Right, and Angel and Darla are very old vampires. The dime-a-dozen vamps Buffy dusts every night are mere years old. The Fanged Four survived to the present day because they were all extremely powerful. You don't live over a century as a vamp if you are a chump; only the strongest make it that long.



*EDIT* Just to restate, it isnt the fact that she died to dru that bugs me, its HOW she died. She went out like a chump, not a slayer. I mean, spike is even younger than dru and he killed two slayers in his career. But he at least fought the damn girls.


How do you mean, she didn't go out like a slayer? She went out battling vampires, and killed a few before she died. I'd call that dying like a Slayer.

You seem to regard Dru's mental powers as "cheap", but that's kind of the whole point, isn't it? Kendra lost because she was up against a foe way out of her weight class.

I fail to see how it's better if Dru utterly stomps Kendra in a fight before snapping her neck as opposed to merely hypnotizing her and killing her.

[Kobold-Bard]

Drusilla is one of the oldest living vampires on Buffy, and is never represented as anything less than extremely dangerous.
Saying Kendra's a chump for dying to Drusilla simply is not valid. Drusilla is a lethally powerful vampire with formidable mental powers. She's a badass.

If you need further proof of this, consider the fact that Drusilla is the only evil character vampire confirmed to survive the full runs of both Buffy and Angel.
.


How is she one of the oldest? Darla created angel, who later created druscilla. She is two generations removed from the oldest of the scourge of europe crew! And that doesnt even include REALLY old vamps like the master, or kakistos, who was so old he was turning into an actual cloven hoofed demon. Ill admit she was dangerous, but kendras death scene was pathetic. There should have been an actual FIGHT.

*EDIT* Just to restate, it isnt the fact that she died to dru that bugs me, its HOW she died. She went out like a chump, not a slayer. I mean, spike is even younger than dru and he killed two slayers in his career. But he at least fought the damn girls.


Right, and Angel and Darla are very old vampires. The dime-a-dozen vamps Buffy dusts every night are mere years old. The Fanged Four survived to the present day because they were all extremely powerful. You don't live over a century as a vamp if you are a chump; only the strongest make it that long.




How do you mean, she didn't go out like a slayer? She went out battling vampires, and killed a few before she died. I'd call that dying like a Slayer.

You seem to regard Dru's mental powers as "cheap", but that's kind of the whole point, isn't it? Kendra lost because she was up against a foe way out of her weight class.

I fail to see how it's better if Dru utterly stomps Kendra in a fight before snapping her neck as opposed to merely hypnotizing her and killing her.

1. The were called The Whirlwind.

2. There's a spoiler warning in the title, and the shows a decade old. Are the spoilers really necessary?

[Tazar]

1. The were called The Whirlwind.

2. There's a spoiler warning in the title, and the shows a decade old. Are the spoilers really necessary?

Apologies, but the Buffy community I frequent has always referred to them as the Fanged Four, so that's the term I use. Fits a bit better, anyways, I think. :smalltongue:

I've been using spoilers solely because the thread title specifies Season One of Buffy. We've been discussing events that transpire late on Buffy and on Angel as well, and many people in this thread have indicated they've either not seen Buffy fully or Angel at all.

As such, I'd say yeah, spoilers are warranted.

[rakkoon]

Yes please, I never wanted to see the Angels series and you guys are kind of tempting me.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you need further proof of this, consider the fact that Drusilla is the only evil character vampire confirmed to survive the full runs of both Buffy and Angel.


That's not technically true. Harmony also survived, and she was evil. Evil enough, anyway.

[Kobold-Bard]

That's not technically true. Harmony also survived, and she was evil. Evil enough, anyway.

I found it interesting that in terms of duration she was the longest serving character; she was the only character to be in the Buffy pilot & the Angel finale (Angel being cut from the pilot).

[Tazar]

Yes please, I never wanted to see the Angels series and you guys are kind of tempting me.

Do it! You won't regret it. It's on Netflix instant streaming.


And yeah, Harmony makes it to the end of the series, but she wasn't turned until the end of S3, and I wouldn't really call her "evil" by the events of S5. Even if she technically is, she's no longer committing evil actions.

[Tirian]

That's not technically true. Harmony also survived, and she was evil. Evil enough, anyway.

Dracula survived as well.

[Tazar]

Dracula survived as well.


He's Dracula, he doesn't count. :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

And yeah, Harmony makes it to the end of the series, but she wasn't turned until the end of S3, and I wouldn't really call her "evil" by the events of S5. Even if she technically is, she's no longer committing evil actions.



Well, in Angel S5, she doesn't mind torturing somebody for the team. To quote "Well, I AM evil. Technically." Just because she's not very good and being bad doesn't mean that she's not still a soulless monster.

[Tazar]

Well, in Angel S5, she doesn't mind torturing somebody for the team. To quote "Well, I AM evil. Technically." Just because she's not very good and being bad doesn't mean that she's not still a soulless monster.


Spike tortures somebody for the team as well. I don't consider Harmony evil by the end of Angel S5 simply because she's not acting in a villain capacity, just as Spike is no longer acting in a villain capacity by the end of Buffy S5.

They may be soulless monsters, but they aren't acting as a villain.

[KillianHawkeye]

You don't have to be a villain to be evil IMO.

[warty goblin]

Well, in Angel S5, she doesn't mind torturing somebody for the team. To quote "Well, I AM evil. Technically." Just because she's not very good and being bad doesn't mean that she's not still a soulless monster.

If torturing is the standard of villainy you want to use, quite a few of the good guys probably need an emergency reclassification by the end of the series.

[Tazar]

You don't have to be a villain to be evil IMO.

You don't have to be a villain to be evil, you can be evil and stay out of the hero's way or even help him or her, but the two generally go hand in hand.

It's all relative to the protagonist's moral alignment and sensibilities, as the term "villain" refers to one who opposes the protagonist in a work.



If torturing is the standard of villainy you want to use, quite a few of the good guys probably need an emergency reclassification by the end of the series.

Some more than others.
Here's lookin' at you, Willow! :smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

If torturing is the standard of villainy you want to use, quite a few of the good guys probably need an emergency reclassification by the end of the series.

Really? Because I don't remember Angel or Wesley or Gunn doing much torturing at all. Okay, Wes went through that dark phase and had that redhead locked in a cage between seasons 3 and 4, but that's not quite on the same level as torture and he got better after that besides.

As for Willow, well she went full villain for half a season, but she got better as well.

Anyway, the thing about torture was a direct quote from the latter half of the last season of Angel. Angel didn't want to torture Eve, but he was willing to allow Harmony to do it because she was "technically" evil.


You don't have to be a villain to be evil, you can be evil and stay out of the hero's way or even help him or her, but the two generally go hand in hand.

That actually describes Harmony in Angel Season 5 pretty well. She tried to help because she wanted to feel like she belonged somewhere, but she was still fully evil.

[Tirian]

As for Willow, well she went full villain for half a season, but she got better as well.

It was only three episodes. If it feels like half a season, it's because you're trying to repress how awful the Trio was.

[rakkoon]

Was there ever given any reason why that year was so sucky? Writer's depression or something?

[Traab]

I think the whole deal with the trio was to give us a break from the big bad paradigm and give us a group of idiots just skilled enough to be mildly dangerous or annoying. You know, take a step back from the yearly apocalypse story or something.

[Talya]

And thus the entire main cast was white. With at best short timers who werent that tended to die or vanish rather quickly. How many episodes did kendra end up in before druscilla slit her throat? (most pathetic slayer death ever) Mister Trick, or whoever the black vamp was that worked for the mayor showed up from time to time, but he also didnt last a full season i dont think, and even for that season he didnt show up in every episode. Any other people of the non white persuasion showed up once then vanished or died.

It doesnt really matter what could have happened with the casting, what matters is what did happen. Every main character was white, the vast majority of the secondary characters was white, and an equally large portion of the temp roles were white.



The town of 30,000 people that I grew up in had, like, 2 black families. Where I work now, in my department we have 3 people born in south asia (India & Pakistan), 2 people from Scotland (white), 1 person from England (white) and 1 person from the Philipines out of 18 people, and the rest of us are Canadian born with white skin. It doesn't mean its racist. Nobody would bat an eyelash at a black person being hired here, people don't see skin color as much different than hair color in Canada, but there's just not many living in this city. If we lived closer to Toronto, then it would be different. I think "the race card" gets played far too often. It's not an issue.

[Traab]

The town of 30,000 people that I grew up in had, like, 2 black families. Where I work now, in my department we have 3 people born in south asia (India & Pakistan), 2 people from Scotland (white), 1 person from England (white) and 1 person from the Philipines out of 18 people, and the rest of us are Canadian born with white skin. It doesn't mean its racist. Nobody would bat an eyelash at a black person being hired here, people don't see skin color as much different than hair color in Canada, but there's just not many living in this city. If we lived closer to Toronto, then it would be different. I think "the race card" gets played far too often. It's not an issue.

Ill be honest, I dont really care much either, hell I didnt even notice it till recently. But still, california is a pretty integrated state in general, and LA even more so than the fictional sunnydale could be expected to be. So why was Gunn and his gang the only non white people to get any sort of face time in the series? Actually, I take it back, I think there was a pretty ineffectual asian lawyer in wolfram and hart that was a part of the lawyer trio set against them before angel took over. But thats the only nonwhite character besides gunn and his gang to get any real face time that I can think of. IN LA!

Meh, maybe im just used to it being different. You see, in my home city im pretty sure there is an equal distribution of whites blacks and hispanics, with the ratio swinging all over the place depending on which part of town you happen to be in. Its also probably because im used to tv shows having a token member of a few different races/religions/whatever thrown into the mix so it jars me when there isnt.

[Tazar]

Was there ever given any reason why that year was so sucky? Writer's depression or something?

Personally, I quite liked Season 6. It gets far too much unwarranted hate due to just how depressing it is.

The reason why just about every character comes apart at the seams is that the writers wanted to emphasize the real and serious consequences for bringing somebody back from the dead. You don't just bounce out of your grave singing "lalala", and I think that's quite fitting.

As for Willow, Willow had been building to the events of "Villains" (6x20) for literally six seasons now. You can see it as early as "Lover's Walk" (3x09). She was going to lose it sooner or later, and she finally did.

I liked the Trio, personally. They were never supposed to be credible villains, as Season Six doesn't have a Big Bad; nor should it. The real enemies in Season 6 are the Scoobies; they all internalize their problems instead of reaching out to their friends for help, and it nearly destroys them.

It's worth noting, however, that the Trio inflicts what is arguably the greatest damage on the Scoobies, despite the fact that they were mere humans. Something to think about.

[Talya]

Was there ever given any reason why that year was so sucky? Writer's depression or something?

I loved season 6 and 7. They weren't as good as 2, 3 or 5, but they were far, far better than 1 and 4. (Four was abysmal, though it had some great episodes.)

[Tazar]

You don't like 4? Really?

Buffy's behavior towards her friends infuriated me at times, but I thought it was quite a good season. You've got the simply amazing "Hush" and "Restless", the utter laugh riots of "Pangs", "Something Blue" and "Superstar", Faith's wonderful episodes in "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You", the great "Fear, Itself", a pretty kickass final showdown with the Big Bad, and Spike is back and hilarious.

I wouldn't call it my favorite, but I wouldn't deem it abysmal by any definition. It sets the scene for the second stage of the Scoobies' character arcs quite well while still providing quality entertainment.

[Weezer]

I loved season 6 and 7. They weren't as good as 2, 3 or 5, but they were far, far better than 1 and 4. (Four was abysmal, though it had some great episodes.)

I would say 4, 5 and 6 were by far my least favorite seasons. There was a noticeable upswing for season 7 but still didn't come close to matching seasons 2 or 3.

[Tazar]

I would say 4, 5 and 6 were by far my least favorite seasons. There was a noticeable upswing for season 7 but still didn't come close to matching seasons 2 or 3.

My personal preference runs as such (although as I greatly enjoy all of them, this list is strictly relative)

Season 3
Season 5
Season 2
Season 7
Season 4
Season 6
Season 1

I'd consider Season 5 to be the "best" season, strictly speaking, but it's not my favorite. There's just something about the sheer charm of Season 3 that grabs me. It's charming, funny Buffy at its best; the gang all working together without the severe emotional trauma that comes with later seasons.

Thus, although it's not the most daring or emotionally heavy season by a long shot, it's definitely my favorite.

[Xondoure]

2 and 3 managed to be brilliant before Whedon depression started to sink in. Making 4, 5, and 6 very hard to deal with despite some brilliant episodes. The scoobies never really recovered from graduating. I enjoyed season 1 but it hadn't really come into full swing yet. Still better than 4-6s. 7 was fun but the characters were still coming out of the crapsack and it was still hard to deal with because of that.

Also, why all the Glory love? She was super strong and practically invincable but she wasn't that smart and its not like the scoobies haven't faced impossibly strong enemies before. It just felt like everyone was way more scared of her than they should be because Buffy ran away. Or more accurately, they were just as scared of her as they should be, but they were never as scared as they should be about anyone else.

[Weezer]

Also, why all the Glory love? She was super strong and practically invincable but she wasn't that smart and its not like the scoobies haven't faced impossibly strong enemies before. It just felt like everyone was way more scared of her than they should be because Buffy ran away. Or more accurately, they were just as scared of her as they should be, but they were never as scared as they should be about anyone else.

That's what bothered me the most about that season, Glory was by far the stupidest big bad they fought. It just removed any sense of fear I had from her, nothing makes me disregard anyone as much as a lack of intelligence

[Traab]

2 and 3 managed to be brilliant before Whedon depression started to sink in. Making 4, 5, and 6 very hard to deal with despite some brilliant episodes. The scoobies never really recovered from graduating. I enjoyed season 1 but it hadn't really come into full swing yet. Still better than 4-6s. 7 was fun but the characters were still coming out of the crapsack and it was still hard to deal with because of that.

Also, why all the Glory love? She was super strong and practically invincable but she wasn't that smart and its not like the scoobies haven't faced impossibly strong enemies before. It just felt like everyone was way more scared of her than they should be because Buffy ran away. Or more accurately, they were just as scared of her as they should be, but they were never as scared as they should be about anyone else.

Actually, I cant think of anyone short of the Judge that buffy faced who could be considered that strong. She beat the hell out of buffy and her friends, smashed through all their protections, and had them on the ropes right up till the end. It took a massive amount of deus ex machina items and events all converging at once to beat her, including some mystical orb, some spell that sucked the sanity back out of her, a troll gods weapon, a freaking WRECKING BALL, robo buffy, and despite all that they still failed to stop her until it was too late. Even the judge doesnt compare because he was on screen for maybe a quarter of an episode before they blew him up.

[Tazar]

RE: Glory-
Glory was scary because of just how terrifyingly powerful she was. No other Big Bad, not even Caleb or Adam, ever approached Glory's speed and strength.

Buffy was able to put up a credible fight against most other Big Bads; Caleb's the only one who came close to overpowering her outright, and Buffy beat even him head-to-head eventually. But nobody-nobody-ever made Buffy go into a full-on retreat.

That moment, in which Buffy realizes she can't beat Glory and they've got to run; that was shocking. Buffy NEVER runs. Ever. And Glory sends her scurrying for her life.

There's also the fact that, while Glory may have been quite dumb, when she wanted to strike at the Scoobies she did it. Bursting into Willow's dorm room, ripping down the wall of the Summers house; no other Big Bad ever asserted their sheer power to pursue the Scoobies in such a manner.

Willow was the only one able even to halt or injure Glory, and even then all she did was slow her down. Buffy couldn't touch Glory.

And consider the sheer amount it takes to knock her down. The Dagon Sphere, Willow's reverse brain-suck to weaken her, the Buffybot, a wrecking ball, and the hammer of a troll god; and she still barely goes down.

Glory made the Scoobies go all-out like they never had before and never would again, and that's why she was so effective.

[Weezer]

RE: Glory-
Glory was scary because of just how terrifyingly powerful she was. No other Big Bad, not even Caleb or Adam, ever approached Glory's speed and strength.

Buffy was able to put up a credible fight against most other Big Bads; Caleb's the only one who came close to overpowering her outright, and Buffy beat even him head-to-head eventually. But nobody-nobody-ever made Buffy go into a full-on retreat.

That moment, in which Buffy realizes she can't beat Glory and they've got to run; that was shocking. Buffy NEVER runs. Ever. And Glory sends her scurrying for her life.

There's also the fact that, while Glory may have been quite dumb, when she wanted to strike at the Scoobies she did it. Bursting into Willow's dorm room, ripping down the wall of the Summers house; no other Big Bad ever asserted their sheer power to pursue the Scoobies in such a manner.

Willow was the only one able even to halt or injure Glory, and even then all she did was slow her down. Buffy couldn't touch Glory.

And consider the sheer amount it takes to knock her down. The Dagon Sphere, Willow's reverse brain-suck to weaken her, the Buffybot, a wrecking ball, and the hammer of a troll god; and she still barely goes down.

Glory made the Scoobies go all-out like they never had before and never would again, and that's why she was so effective.

The thing is strength doesn't make a vilain good. It's fiction, making someone powerful is as easy as having the characters say "This is the most powerful foe we've ever fought" and have a house blow up or something. To make a villain good there needs to be depth to them, they need a personality that inspires fear. Glory lacked that, she was a stupid thug, nothing more. My favorite Buffy villain, the Mayor, on the other hand combined an utter disregard for morality and human life with a cheery, happy disposition that was frankly terrifying. Glory, despite being horrifically powerful, was missing any character aspect to make her a good villain.

[Tazar]

The thing is strength doesn't make a vilain good. It's fiction, making someone powerful is as easy as having the characters say "This is the most powerful foe we've ever fought" and have a house blow up or something. To make a villain good there needs to be depth to them, they need a personality that inspires fear. Glory lacked that, she was a stupid thug, nothing more. My favorite Buffy villain, the Mayor, on the other hand combined an utter disregard for morality and human life with a cheery, happy disposition that was frankly terrifying. Glory, despite being horrifically powerful, was missing any character aspect to make her a good villain.

RE: Villains and Glory-

Gonna have to disagree entirely with you on this one. I find a good villain to be one who inspires real fear for the protagonists' safety and ability to accomplish their goals. This does not have to be done through personality, as you assert; it can be accomplished through other means.

Glory made me fear for the main characters' safety like no other Big Bad. Time and time again the Scoobies escaped from her by the skin of their teeth. No other Big Bad ever gave the impression that the Scoobies were barely hanging on for dear life; Glory did.

Sure, Glory might have lounged around in a tub all day, but that made her bouts of action even more terrifying. She waits for Buffy and Dawn in their house. When she decided she was finally fed up with Buffy, she comes crashing through the Summers' wall, emphasizing that even something that's always been a sanctuary isn't safe anymore. She chases them across the entire UC Sunnydale campus, and they can't even pretend they can stop her, only run. She violates Tara's mind in the middle of a crowded park in one of the most horrifying scenes of the entire season. That was scary.

Glory was relentless and unstoppable, and that made her terrifying.

That said, the Mayor was my favorite villain as well; just gotta disagree that Glory wasn't effective. She was.

[Weezer]

RE: Villains and Glory-

Gonna have to disagree entirely with you on this one. I find a good villain to be one who inspires real fear for the protagonists' safety and ability to accomplish their goals. This does not have to be done through personality, as you assert; it can be accomplished through other means.

Glory made me fear for the main characters' safety like no other Big Bad. Time and time again the Scoobies escaped from her by the skin of their teeth. No other Big Bad ever gave the impression that the Scoobies were barely hanging on for dear life; Glory did.

Sure, Glory might have lounged around in a tub all day, but that made her bouts of action even more terrifying. When she decided she was finally fed up with the Scoobies, she comes crashing through their wall, emphasizing that even something that's always been a safe place isn't safe anymore. She chases them across the entire UC Sunnydale campus, and they can't even pretend they can stop her, only run. She violates Tara's mind in the middle of a crowded park. That was scary.

Glory was relentless and unstoppable, and that made her terrifying.

That said, the Mayor was my favorite villain as well; just gotta disagree that Glory wasn't effective. She was.


Of course the villain can't be completely toothless, they need to have the ability to complete their goals and threaten the protagonists, but they need more than that. They need a combination of threat and personality, a villain who is too lopsided towards either direction is a weak villain in my eyes.

[Talya]

You don't like 4? Really?

Buffy's behavior towards her friends infuriated me at times, but I thought it was quite a good season. You've got the simply amazing "Hush" and "Restless", the utter laugh riots of "Pangs", "Something Blue" and "Superstar", Faith's wonderful episodes in "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You", the great "Fear, Itself", a pretty kickass final showdown with the Big Bad, and Spike is back and hilarious.

I wouldn't call it my favorite, but I wouldn't deem it abysmal by any definition. It sets the scene for the second stage of the Scoobies' character arcs quite well while still providing quality entertainment.


As I said, it had some great episodes. (Hush, in particular.)

Things I hated about season 4:
(1) Riley
(2) The Initiative
(3) Adam (WTF.)

Favorite things about season 4:
(1) Hush
(2) Spike being consoled by Willow after he realized he couldn't kill her due to the chip.
(3) Willow realizing she's gay. (Despite liking Oz, I prefer gay-Willow. Seth Green didn't leave because Willow became gay, he was gone anyway.)

Things about season 5 i loved:
(1) Best finale ever. (narrowly beating the absolutely crushing end to Season 2)
(2) The entire plot (including the monks changing history to add The Key to Buffy's family)
(3) The Body

Things about Season 6 I loved:
(1) Once more, with feeling
(2) The Trio
(3) Big bad at the end.

[Tazar]

Of course the villain can't be completely toothless, they need to have the ability to complete their goals and threaten the protagonists, but they need more than that. They need a combination of threat and personality, a villain who is too lopsided towards either direction is a weak villain in my eyes.


Glory had plenty of personality. She might not have been deep, but her utter disregard for the Scoobies was an integral part of what made her terrifying. We're used to every villain at least taking Buffy and the Scoobies seriously and viewing them as a credible threat. Glory didn't; she acted like Buffy was no more than a mere annoyance to her, not even worth really considering a threat. That, again, made her scary, as it tied in to the whole idea that Buffy was legitimately way overmatched.

While the Scoobies are desperately pouring over texts to figure out what the hell Glory is and how to fight her, Glory's bathing and worrying about the way she looks; she's not even giving them a thought.

It was this disdain that made Glory so effective for me. I became used to each Big Bad actually viewing Buffy as a credible threat and working to eliminate her throughout the entire season. Glory couldn't care less, and manages to drive Buffy into full retreat even though all she does is lounge around. It's downright scary in how thoroughly it breaks every rule for the Big Bads the series had created.

@ Talya-I utterly loved Spike and Willow's interactions in S4! They were nothing short of hilarious, from Willow looking legitimately cheered by the fact that Spike would bite her to Willow bringing Spike with her and Xander because she was afraid he'd stake himself. Just great stuff.

[Talya]

@ Talya-I utterly loved Spike and Willow's interactions in S4! They were nothing short of hilarious, from Willow looking legitimately cheered by the fact that Spike would bite her to Willow bringing Spike with her and Xander because she was afraid he'd stake himself. Just great stuff.


yeah, absolutely one of the defining moments of both Spike and Willow for me.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Things I hated about season 4:
(1) Riley
(2) The Initiative
(3) Adam (WTF.)

...

Oh how I hated the Initiative. Letting Spike interact more with the gang by neutering him was their sole beneficial addition. Absolutely everything else was just annoying and dumb.

[Traab]

Glory had plenty of personality. She might not have been deep, but her utter disregard for the Scoobies was an integral part of what made her terrifying. We're used to every villain at least taking Buffy and the Scoobies seriously and viewing them as a credible threat. Glory didn't; she acted like Buffy was no more than a mere annoyance to her, not even worth really considering a threat. That, again, made her scary, as it tied in to the whole idea that Buffy was legitimately way overmatched.

While the Scoobies are desperately pouring over texts to figure out what the hell Glory is and how to fight her, Glory's bathing and worrying about the way she looks; she's not even giving them a thought.

It was this disdain that made Glory so effective for me. I became used to each Big Bad actually viewing Buffy as a credible threat and working to eliminate her throughout the entire season. Glory couldn't care less, and manages to drive Buffy into full retreat even though all she does is lounge around. It's downright scary in how thoroughly it breaks every rule for the Big Bads the series had created.

@ Talya-I utterly loved Spike and Willow's interactions in S4! They were nothing short of hilarious, from Willow looking legitimately cheered by the fact that Spike would bite her to Willow bringing Spike with her and Xander because she was afraid he'd stake himself. Just great stuff.

I agree fully with you on glory. That was her biggest scare factor for me. She was never once even CONCERNED about buffy. Buffy was no more a threat to her than a yapping lap dog. Also, in your earlier post, the tearing down the wall, mind raping tara in broad daylight in the middle of a crowded park, all of that was just intense. She normally couldnt be bothered to take a direct hand, but when she did, there was NOTHING the scoobies could do about it but run. The fact that the council was making a frigging POWER PLAY during all of this just made the situation even more dire. Then knew what she was facing, and they were going to risk the utter destruction of this dimension just to slap some control on buffy by withholding that info until she gave in. Yeah it back fired on them, but even so, that was just one more pile of crap that slapped buffy in the face.

[KillianHawkeye]

@ Weezer and Tazar: You guys are both right, because there's more than one type of villain.

[Weezer]

@ Weezer and Tazar: You guys are both right, because there's more than one type of villain.

Very true, it's just personal preference that each of us seem to like different types.

[Traab]

Very true, it's just personal preference that each of us seem to like different types.

Oh if its just villains we like id have to go with the mayor. He was an awesome xanatos style big bad. Hell, Buffy and crew didnt even know he WAS a big bad for years and years, right up until shortly before graduation. He pulled all the strings from behind the scenes and everything worked more or less as he wanted them too. His personality was the real clincher for me. That affably evil personality, the happy smile as he discusses how someone reminds him of the daughter he sacrificed, all of that is just excellent. Did he EVER get truly angry? I mean rage angry, not, "Well, this is a pickle." type of talk?

[Tazar]

Only once, when Faith was in the hospital in a coma after being stabbed by Buffy, and he tried to strangle Buffy to death.

As he's normally so composed and jovial, it was chilling to see.

[Lord of the Helms]

How to describe it...

Angel felt like the most boring parts of Buffy, spread out over five seasons. By which I mean you have potentially interesting characters in potentially interesting worlds, with nothing even remotely interesting todo for them except moan at each other how horrible life is.
In addition to that, yes, Angel is boring.

Personally, I felt it was the opposite: Angel was Buffy without the crappy and/or boring parts and characters I could better relate to. For some reason, even as a teenager at the time it first ran, I could better relate to the themes of adulthood and responsibility rather than BtVS's coming-of-age teenager feel. And frankly, Buffy the character usually rather annoyed me and her smart-talk in battle felt more irritating than anything, whereas Angel managed to combine his angsty, broody side with fun quips rather well, plus the way they managed to slip in Hidden Depths and skills without ever playing them up too much seemed pretty nicely handled(like his impro-acting which was always a blast to watch).

And mostly, I cared an enormous deal about the characters. Wesley stands out especially. Once you have seen even late season 2 Wesley, let alone the season 4 and later incarnation, it's almost impossible to look at the Buffy/Angel season 1 or early season 2 Wesley and believe that they are the same person, yet the change is handled so incredibly well it's incredibly believeable and you barely even notice it for how gradually it happens.

That said, Angel had its issues. Season 1 was hit-and-miss, the first Buffy appearance frankly quite terrible (though the Spike, Faith and Faith/Buffy episodes were all very good, and the latter contains one of the best examples of gender-equality dialogue ever) as well as a fair few other eps (Cordy's first demon pregnancy comes to mind...). Season 3 was far too depressing for my taste. Season 4 was a mess and should never have happened (well, not all of it, but the main plot was just urgh). But Season 2 and 5 on Angel are easily among the best things I've ever seen on TV, right up there with Firefly and Seasons 2-4 of Babylon Five. So much fun, such great writing, such masterful transition between humor and drama, and such great, likeable and relatable characters.

[Xondoure]

But see thats the thing with Glory, they just piss her off and then she curbstomps them. Glory wasn't worried about them, what they should have done was lay low and outsmart her but then what made her so scary isn't there. Basically I dislike any villain that requires plot idiocy from the protagonists to be a threat.

[rakkoon]

She was the most annoying person ever on the show, that made her a great villain. The entire of idea of The Beast in that body is simply hilarious. Also her lackeys were fabulous. They are my favourite in the BtVS boardgame.

[Eldan]

What was my problem with Angel (and later Buffy episodes) was that there were sometimes entire episodes where barely anything happened. (Or at least that's how I remember it). I don't want to see someone moping for fifteen minutes. I want an interesting monster to show up, do something "bad" and then someone to kick it's ass while saying something funny. It's what I expected from Buffy/Angel after the first few episodes, and I got less and less of that the more it went on.

[Talya]

What was my problem with Angel (and later Buffy episodes) was that there were sometimes entire episodes where barely anything happened. (Or at least that's how I remember it). I don't want to see someone moping for fifteen minutes. I want an interesting monster to show up, do something "bad" and then someone to kick it's ass while saying something funny. It's what I expected from Buffy/Angel after the first few episodes, and I got less and less of that the more it went on.

You may be one of the few people in the world who didn't like "The Body."

[Eldan]

Eh, no, that was well handled, I admit, and not really what I meant. There was well done drama in both series. It was not what I originally expected from them, but as long as it was well-handled, I liked it. After all, I finished watching all 12 or so seasons of both shows.

It's just that really often, I felt there was just too much of it. And not interesting drama. I like interesting, character-driven drama. But very often, it just felt to me as if the writers had sat down and said: "Okay, the viewers might not have realized how depressing this show is supposed to be. Let's spend half the episode watching a character sit down and complain how bad it all is!"

[Traab]

But see thats the thing with Glory, they just piss her off and then she curbstomps them. Glory wasn't worried about them, what they should have done was lay low and outsmart her but then what made her so scary isn't there. Basically I dislike any villain that requires plot idiocy from the protagonists to be a threat.

Yeah, in all seriousness, the smart thing to do would have been, the second they realized dawn was the key? Leave california. It all had to be done in a certain place at a certain time right? Leave town with dawn and dont come back until you think you have a way to stop her, AND its past the deadline, so even if you fail, she still cant destroy the barrier between dimensions. I mean come on, the writers passed up an excellent chance for a huge montage training episode where willow is mastering all sorts of high end spells, buffy is honing all her abilities, the rest of the scoobies are prepping to throw down some goons, it would have been great!

But I know, I know, its more dramatic for buffy to be chained in a single town and be forced to run and run and run as glory kicks her ass and the knights try to kill dawn, and the council tries to take control of her. Of course, I may be wrong and dawn could have been used at any point in time, if so, they still could have trained out of state, they just wouldnt have won that victory of stopping glory whether they lived or died.

[Tazar]

But see thats the thing with Glory, they just piss her off and then she curbstomps them. Glory wasn't worried about them, what they should have done was lay low and outsmart her but then what made her so scary isn't there. Basically I dislike any villain that requires plot idiocy from the protagonists to be a threat.

They hardly display "plot idiocy". They do try and lay low and outsmart her; you'll note that they never go storming Glory's mansion except to rescue a trapped friend.


And while I agree that the smart thing to do would have been to flee Sunnydale immediately, that's not the logical in-character response. Sunnydale is where everything they have is, and they've faced down plenty of threats and apocalypses in the past. It doesn't hit them that Glory is different, that she can and will steamroll them effortlessly, until it's almost too late.

Would you really run away at the first sight of somebody tough when you've fought and killed everything bad that's come at you up until that point? Remember, Glory's hardly the first apocalypse they've had to face. Expecting them to immediately throw away their lives and possessions and flee in terror is simply not in accordance with the way the characters approach these kind of threats.

[Starbuck_II]

I have a cross Angel/Buffy question:
Who would have won between the god fought in Angel (Jasmine) versus the god in Buffy (Glory)?

Both are basically gods. One has charm/dominate/mind control (and thus army of followers) and super strong, fast healing, and just tough. The other mostly just super strong and fast.

Assuming Glory was immune to her charm, how big a battle would this be?

[Talya]

I have a cross Angel/Buffy question:
Who would have won between the god fought in Angel (Jasmine) versus the god in Buffy (Glory)?

Both are basically gods. One has charm/dominate/mind control (and thus army of followers) and super strong, fast healing, and just tough. The other mostly just super strong and fast.

Assuming Glory was immune to her charm, how big a battle would this be?
You'd have to also assume Ben was also immune to her charm, and even then, Ben was Glory's Achilles' heel.

[Kobold-Bard]

I have a cross Angel/Buffy question:
Who would have won between the god fought in Angel (Jasmine) versus the god in Buffy (Glory)?

Both are basically gods. One has charm/dominate/mind control (and thus army of followers) and super strong, fast healing, and just tough. The other mostly just super strong and fast.

Assuming Glory was immune to her charm, how big a battle would this be?

Connor punched through Jasmine's head. If Glory is immune to her charm then Glory wins pretty easily.

[Traab]

Connor punched through Jasmine's head. If Glory is immune to her charm then Glory wins pretty easily.

Wasnt that because of some blood related macguffin? He was jasmines father or something so he was able to kill her.

[Kobold-Bard]

Wasnt that because of some blood related macguffin? He was jasmines father or something so he was able to kill her.

Not that I recall (from last week).

He was her dad, but that was just how she arrived, nothing to do with her death. The head-thing Angel brought back broke her thrall on everyone & Connor punched through her head because she was going to kill Angel (Connor having typical vampire strength/speed).

This is like a Wizard vs. a Warblade, except the Warblade is immune to all spells. Without her thrall ability Jasmine is barely better than mortal. Glory could flick her & she'd melt frankly.

[The Extinguisher]

Except your forgetting the whole thing where she's still super strong, and was going to kill Angel. I still think it was a lucky shot, but she should be able to hold her own against Glory for a while.

What bothered me is that Angel Inc never really dealt with the whole First Evil thing, especially when Jasmine was on her crusade against evil thing, and she controlled all of California.

[Kobold-Bard]

Except your forgetting the whole thing where she's still super strong, and was going to kill Angel. I still think it was a lucky shot, but she should be able to hold her own against Glory for a while.

Fact is she got her head punched in by Connor, who's strength is dwarfed by Glory. Without her mind-control Jasmine loses.

[Traab]

Fact is she got her head punched in by Connor, who's strength is dwarfed by Glory. Without her mind-control Jasmine loses.

Combine that with glory and her ability to control the people whose brains she sucks out and you have a stand off of drones fighting each other while glory is spreading jasmines body parts all over the landscape.

[Tazar]

As noted, Connor kills Jasmine, Buffy would beat the crap out of Connor on a bad day, and Glory would beat the crap out of Buffy on a bad day. Jasmine doesn't have a chance.

[Talya]

Glory would beat the crap out of Buffy on a bad day.

No, she really wouldn't. Because...

Glory on a bad day is not Glorificus, but her "brother" Ben.

Remember, Giles ends up killing Glory, not Buffy.

[Tazar]

No, she really wouldn't. Because...

Glory on a bad day is not Glorificus, but her "brother" Ben.

Remember, Giles ends up killing Glory, not Buffy.


Ben is Glory? :smallconfused:
...
...
...
:smalltongue:

I have to disagree with you on a technicality, though. Ben and Glory are two separate individuals. While Ben is Glory's Achilles heel, Glory on a bad day isn't Ben, she's just Glory on a bad day.

[Lord of the Helms]

Not that I recall (from last week).

He was her dad, but that was just how she arrived, nothing to do with her death. The head-thing Angel brought back broke her thrall on everyone & Connor punched through her head because she was going to kill Angel (Connor having typical vampire strength/speed).

Nope, I'm pretty sure it was because she was specifically vulnerable to Connor. Angel's no weaker than him, but Jasmine shrugged off his blows with ease, and her reaction to being electrocuted by a high-voltage power station was "I was forged in the fires of creation, do you think a little lightning could hurt me?". She was also far, far stronger than Angel and could lift and throw around cars, which is far above your typical vampire or similar demon in the series.


What is stranger is that she showed no such super-strength or invulnerability before she had her magic powers taken away (She was injured both by a guy with a knife and a bullet, either one drawing blood), but that I just put down to the season 4 writers having no clue what they're doing and making it up as they go.


I think the problem is that in Glory's case, we had very, very extensive evidence of what she was capable of dishing out and how much she could take throughout many onscreen fights, whereas Jasmine only fights once, hands Angel his ass with ease, then gets offed by her father who's also her Kryptonite. Hard to gauge if she plays in Glory's league in terms of strength or toughness, or somewhere below that.

[KillianHawkeye]

What is stranger is that she showed no such super-strength or invulnerability before she had her magic powers taken away (She was injured both by a guy with a knife and a bullet, either one drawing blood), but that I just put down to the season 4 writers having no clue what they're doing and making it up as they go.

That could be explained by the fact that she was still fresh and hadn't just absorbed a whole room full of people to gain power.

[Traab]

That could be explained by the fact that she was still fresh and hadn't just absorbed a whole room full of people to gain power.

True, im pretty sure she was spending her time slowly growing in power. Otherwise she could have just enthralled angel and crew, then busted in to take over a tv station and beam her message out to the world. It was sort of like the judge. He couldnt just reach out and vaporize humanity from across the room the second he got put back together. He needed time to recharge first. In jasmines case, id assume every person she takes over, returns a little more power than it took to control them, or maybe its the people she consumed, whatever.

[Tazar]

The whole Jasmine arc was an utter mess, frankly; I wish they'd never attempted it.

It also clashes somewhat with the end of Buffy S7, because Jasmine was supposed be to be spreading her influence on a global scale, and that'd affect Sunnydale.

[Traab]

Did everyone seem to remember what happened to them after jasmines control was broken? I forget. Also, there is speculation that there is some magical effect in sunnydale that made it so most people didnt notice the odd stuff that happened there. Like the fact that they have a larger obituary page in the high school yearbook than a graduates page. If thats the case then it may have interfered with jasmines control attempts. If not, then it might have encouraged everyone to forget it happened afterwards.

[Tazar]

I think the only possibly explanation is that at that point on Buffy the power had cut out, so the TVs and phones were down.

It's plausible, but still, I'd have preferred it if Jasmine didn't have such a global influence.

[The Extinguisher]

The whole Jasmine arc was an utter mess, frankly; I wish they'd never attempted it.

It also clashes somewhat with the end of Buffy S7, because Jasmine was supposed be to be spreading her influence on a global scale, and that'd affect Sunnydale.

She didn't have a global influence, she was about to, when Angel ruined the media party with her true name, they were broadcasting her to the world the first time.

What she did have though, was control over California. So your point is still valid. Maybe the First had something to do with blocking it?

[Kobold-Bard]

...

What she did have though, was control over California. So your point is still valid. Maybe the First had something to do with blocking it?

It's a fair point. I mean if you have evil incarnate to deal with, some woman in LA offering world peace sort of takes a back-seat.

New question: Since Angel inc. took over W&H, and therefore had immense knowledge & resources; how did they not know about Buffy making all potentials into Slayers? They had to have Nerdus Maximus (aka. Andrew) tell them.

[Traab]

It's a fair point. I mean if you have evil incarnate to deal with, some woman in LA offering world peace sort of takes a back-seat.

New question: Since Angel inc. took over W&H, and therefore had immense knowledge & resources; how did they not know about Buffy making all potentials into Slayers? They had to have Nerdus Maximus (aka. Andrew) tell them.

They didnt let angel and crew know everything, they gave angel and crew "control" over that branch to keep them distracted, to try and corrupt them. I doubt they would have let angel learn that the side of good just got one hell of a boost.

[Kobold-Bard]

They didnt let angel and crew know everything, they gave angel and crew "control" over that branch to keep them distracted, to try and corrupt them. I doubt they would have let angel learn that the side of good just got one hell of a boost.

But several thousand Slayers appearing all over the world overnight, someone has to notice that surely.

[Traab]

But several thousand Slayers appearing all over the world overnight, someone has to notice that surely.

Im sure they did, the question is if they would have let angel or his people know about it.

[Kobold-Bard]

Im sure they did, the question is if they would have let angel or his people know about it.

Yes but Wesley was a Watcher & has access to teams who's only job is to keep track of big magical occurances, it seems incredulous to me that something like that escaped his notice entirely (whether the teams of psychics or whatever weren't allowed to tell them, he must have some people who would mention something unique & world-altering as that).

And as much as I hate the comics they show the world-wide media covering it (superhumans beating the crap out of one another & all that), surely one of Team Angel watches the news once & a while.

[Traab]

Yes but Wesley was a Watcher & has access to teams who's only job is to keep track of big magical occurances, it seems incredulous to me that something like that escaped his notice entirely (whether the teams of psychics or whatever weren't allowed to tell them, he must have some people who would mention something unique & world-altering as that).

And as much as I hate the comics they show the world-wide media covering it (superhumans beating the crap out of one another & all that), surely one of Team Angel watches the news once & a while.

Wasnt the watchers council destroyed by the first evil? And yeah, I suppose it is likely that they should have learned of it somehow, remember that they basically treated the two series as if they were only every once in awhile connected worlds. Otherwise it might have been pylea/la for all the overlap there was.

[Tazar]

Bear in mind that they find out about it from Andrew only a few months after the events of "Chosen". At that point the Scoobies themselves would still be re-forming the Watchers' Council analog and finding all of the Slayers worldwide. I hardly think it a guarantee that Wolfram & Hart's CA branch would have found out about it, especially seeing as Buffy & Co. would have sought to keep that information from them.

[Selrahc]

Fact is she got her head punched in by Connor, who's strength is dwarfed by Glory. Without her mind-control Jasmine loses.

Except the explanation for that is that Connor and Cordelia were her supernatural weakness.

Might as well say "Glory was killed by Giles. She must be rubbish". Statement 1 is true, but leaves out so much detail that it doesn't serve as evidence for statement 2.

[Kobold-Bard]

Except the explanation for that is that Connor and Cordelia were her supernatural weakness.

Might as well say "Glory was killed by Giles. She must be rubbish". Statement 1 is true, but leaves out so much detail that it doesn't serve as evidence for statement 2.

Glory was never killed by Giles. Ben (a human) was.

Fine: I concede that I didn't pay enough attention to Jasmine & when I posted that I didn't know she had a weakness to Cordie & Mop-top, I apologise.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes but Wesley was a Watcher & has access to teams who's only job is to keep track of big magical occurances, it seems incredulous to me that something like that escaped his notice entirely (whether the teams of psychics or whatever weren't allowed to tell them, he must have some people who would mention something unique & world-altering as that).

Didn't all the slayers being activated happen BEFORE Team Angel took over W&H? Also while the LA branch of W&H was being rebuilt? I could see your argument if it had happened while they were in the loop, but under the circumstances....

[Talya]

Except the explanation for that is that Connor and Cordelia were her supernatural weakness.

Might as well say "Glory was killed by Giles. She must be rubbish". Statement 1 is true, but leaves out so much detail that it doesn't serve as evidence for statement 2.


Glory was never killed by Giles. Ben (a human) was.

Fine: I concede that I didn't pay enough attention to Jasmine & when I posted that I didn't know she had a weakness to Cordie & Mop-top, I apologise.


No, she really wouldn't. Because...

Glory on a bad day is not Glorificus, but her "brother" Ben.

Remember, Giles ends up killing Glory, not Buffy.

/Spike on
"Is everyone here very stoned? Ben is Glory."
/Spike off

By killing Ben, Giles killed Glory. Saying "Giles didn't kill Glory, he killed Ben" is much like saying "I didn't kill anybody. I just pulled a trigger. The bullet killed them." Cause and effect. Killing Ben kills Glory. Giles killed Glory.

Excellent. Now, do we suspect there may be some kind of connection between Ben and Glory?

[Wayac]

I have a cross Angel/Buffy question:
Who would have won between the god fought in Angel (Jasmine) versus the god in Buffy (Glory)?


This made me think of another interesting question. Who would win between Glory and a full powered Illyria?

[Traab]

This made me think of another interesting question. Who would win between Glory and a full powered Illyria?

Full power illyria? Her. She controls time, is absurdly strong, it wouldnt even be a contest unless glory somehow managed to free herself from her imprisonment first. Yeah glory is tough, but she would never land a hit on illyria and would be pounded into a fine paste.

[Tazar]

Illyria absolutely wins. Even discounting time manipulation shenanignans, she's strong and fast enough to beat Glory into a pulp. Observe what happens when Angel and Spike both attack her at once; she dodges every blow effortlessly. Glory was never that fast; she could take one hell of a beating, but she wasn't able to simply dodge around blows like Illyria could.

Post-draining Illyria would likely still put up a very good fight, though things might go in Glory's favor.

[Lord of the Helms]

Glory vs. Illyrifred before the draining: Gotta agree with Tazar and Traab. Illyria almost certainly is at least as strong and tough as Glory, and much faster thanks to time manipulation.

Glory vs. Illyria the original Old One: Illyria right after she took over Fred was a mere shadow of her original, full-powered self by her own admission. Glory gets annihilated.

Glory vs. de-powered Illyria: Glory wins. Illyria is still stronger than vamps, but she got beaten rather decisively by Hamilton, who, while clearly pretty damn powerful and tough, didn't seem to have quite the kind of strength Glory had (I'm pretty sure Angel didn't do worse against him than Buffy against Glory, and we know Angel is not as strong as Buffy).

[Tazar]

Illyria does exhibit Glory-levels of strength at times, particularly when she kicks that Boros demon something like fifteen feet through the air. It's difficult to quantify, though, as Hamilton does seem to hit softer than Glory; he never sends Angel flying through walls.

I think the one thing that might prove somewhat of a nebulous factor in a depowered Illyria vs. Glory is Illyria's speed.

Glory exhibits tremendous strength (certainly more than depowered Illyria possesses) but she's not (if I recall) particularly agile, but instead just relies on her extreme physical thresholds to take a pounding and keep going.

Illyria, on the other hand, is actually quite nimble, and might well be agile enough to evade Glory's blows. Unfortunately, we don't really see Illyria fight enough to get a bead on her abilities.