How are PREREQ's defined?

[Raendyn]

This is becoming more and more of a problem nowadays in my DnD clique...

How are the prereq's played? 7/10 people I know, believe that when it come to prerequirements of feats/prestige/items, you must qualify as you are, alone, naked, without magical effects on you.

The rest 3/10 argue that a ring of evasion is enough for you to enter any prestige that needs evasion as a prerequirement.

Is there any RAW reference that can enlighten us, and put an end to the fight?


Just for a reference, I don't want personal interpretations, or how people on any forum use it. I need a RAW answer, has anyone asked that in the WotC customer service?

Thanks in advance for your replies.:miko:

[PersonMan]

I think that the reason for the split is because there's no RAW answer-people wouldn't be saying "buy a ring of evasion to enter PrC X" if it was spelled out as illegal by RAW, after all.

[Cog]

I need a RAW answer, has anyone asked that in the WotC customer service?
WotC staff are, unfortunately, not always the best at providing an answer that's actually consistent with the RAW.

Ultimately, it depends on the wording of the item and of the requirement. If an item says that it grants you the Evasion ability, you have been granted the ability, and meet requirements as such. If it merely says that successful reflex saves mean avoiding the affect as if you had the Evasion ability, then you don't actually have it, and don't meet prerequisites.

Likewise, on the requirement end, there might simply be Special: Evasion ability, which the ring would meet, but there might also be Special: Evasion class ability, which the ring would not.

[Psyren]

There is reason to believe that items let you qualify. From Complete Warrior:


Meeting Prestige Class Requirements

It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

Emphasis mine - if losing an item can cause you to no longer qualify, it stands to reason that items can be used to qualify to begin with, otherwise there'd be no reason to state that condition.

[Raendyn]

Emphasis mine - if losing an item can cause you to no longer qualify, it stands to reason that items can be used to qualify to begin with, otherwise there'd be no reason to state that condition.

I'll bring this up at my friends for discussion.:thog:


WotC staff are, unfortunately, not always the best at providing an answer that's actually consistent with the RAW.

True, but except for errata, or direct reference in a book, it is the closest thing to RAW.


Ultimately, it depends on the wording of the item and of the requirement. If an item says that it grants you the Evasion ability, you have been granted the ability, and meet requirements as such. If it merely says that successful reflex saves mean avoiding the affect as if you had the Evasion ability, then you don't actually have it, and don't meet prerequisites.

Interesting... How do you deal with " you are treated as if you have X feat" Ranger combat styles give?


Also, I'd like to ask how you people think of buying a feat that you dont meet the requirement, but you can cast a spell & get it temporarily. (cast alter shelf to gain wings,& use your flyby attack feat)???

[Cog]

Interesting... How do you deal with " you are treated as if you have X feat" Ranger combat styles give?
If you are treated as having it, and having it is one of the requirements, it's pretty straightforward... the main problem with Ranger is that you only ain the benefit in light or no armor. Put on medium armor and you instantly disqualify, and if one of the things you snagged with those feats was a Complete Warrior PrC, you're pretty screwed (CWar and CArc, and I think only those two, have a clause where if you lose prereqs you lose the class benefits permanently).


Also, I'd like to ask how you people think of buying a feat that you dont meet the requirement, but you can cast a spell & get it temporarily. (cast alter shelf to gain wings,& use your flyby attack feat)???
Feats are pretty simple. As long as you have the ability required, you can use the feat, and if you temporarily lose the requirement the feat merely goes dormant. There's no duration given for leveling up, you simply do it; cast the spell so you have a fly speed, level and take the feat, and then you're fine. There's precedent for this as well; somewhere official, it's suggested for Druids to take claw or bite related feats. I'm sure somebody can provide a cite if you need one.

[Kefkafreak]

Also, I'd like to ask how you people think of buying a feat that you dont meet the requirement, but you can cast a spell & get it temporarily. (cast alter shelf to gain wings,& use your flyby attack feat)???

I do that all the time. For example, qualifying for Hulking Hurler only while polymorphed / wild shaped / whatever into a Large form, and losing all of its class abilities otherwise (not hit dice, BAB, saves, etc, only the class features).

[Hazzardevil]

Emphasis mine - if losing an item can cause you to no longer qualify, it stands to reason that items can be used to qualify to begin with, otherwise there'd be no reason to state that condition.

I belive that is there for the classes where one of the conditions is owning a dragon egg or something, not referring to using a ring of evasion to qualify.

[Coidzor]

I belive that is there for the classes where one of the conditions is owning a dragon egg or something, not referring to using a ring of evasion to qualify.

With nothing further to go on, however...

[Psyren]

I belive that is there for the classes where one of the conditions is owning a dragon egg or something, not referring to using a ring of evasion to qualify.

A dragon egg is not a magic item; a ring of evasion is.

But ring of evasion usually doesn't work for a different reason (i.e. it doesn't actually give you Evasion) so if you're looking for a reason not to allow that, there it is.

[Essence_of_War]

Emphasis mine - if losing an item can cause you to no longer qualify, it stands to reason that items can be used to qualify to begin with, otherwise there'd be no reason to state that condition.


There is, in fact, an excellent example of a prestige class in CW that explicitly suggests meeting it's requirement(s) by magic item. The Master of the Unseen Hand specifically suggests a ring of telekinesis to meet the TK requirement of the class.

[Keld Denar]

Can a soulmeld or its chakra bind allow you to meet the prerequisites for a feat or the requirements for a prestige class?
Yes, but you only gain the benefits of the feat or prestige class as long as you continue to meet its requirements. If you unshape the meld or change the chakra bind, you would lose the feat or prestige class benefits and wouldn’t be able to advance further in the prestige class.

Since soulmelds are, in many cases, functionally similar to magic items, I'd say that is further proof. If you can bind Impulse Boots to your feet chakra to gain evasion to get into Foclucan Lyricist, then you can use a Ring of Evasion.

[Big Fau]

I need a RAW answer, has anyone asked that in the WotC customer service?

For the record: WotC discontinued support for 3.5, including CustServ, back in '08.

[big teej]

This is becoming more and more of a problem nowadays in my DnD clique...

How are the prereq's played? 7/10 people I know, believe that when it come to prerequirements of feats/prestige/items, you must qualify as you are, alone, naked, without magical effects on you.

The rest 3/10 argue that a ring of evasion is enough for you to enter any prestige that needs evasion as a prerequirement.

Is there any RAW reference that can enlighten us, and put an end to the fight?


Just for a reference, I don't want personal interpretations, or how people on any forum use it. I need a RAW answer, has anyone asked that in the WotC customer service?

Thanks in advance for your replies.:miko:

as far as I'm aware, there is no "strictly RAW" answer to the question.

in my experience, I'm typically Okay with magic items and what not allowing someone to qualify (due to the "virtual feat" rules.) however, just like with anything else, the moment they stop meeting the prerequisites is the moment they no longer have the benefits.

naturally this should have some limitation. having a magic item make up for a single lack is fine.

meeting none of the pre-reqs on your own? not so much.

[Psyren]

Since soulmelds are, in many cases, functionally similar to magic items, I'd say that is further proof. If you can bind Impulse Boots to your feet chakra to gain evasion to get into Foclucan Lyricist, then you can use a Ring of Evasion.

The boots definitely work because they actually give you Evasion. The ring (strictly speaking) does not; I would personally allow it anyway though.

[Cog]

The boots definitely work because they actually give you Evasion.
They still don't give you it as a class ability, though, so you won't meet all Evasion requirements.

[Psyren]

They still don't give you it as a class ability, though, so you won't meet all Evasion requirements.

It specifically references page 50 of the PHB, so it functions exactly as the rogue entry on that page. The evasion ability on that page is a class ability.

[Jeraa]

For the record: WotC discontinued support for 3.5, including CustServ, back in '08.

Not that asking them would actually help if you still could contact them. Customer Service didn't know what they were talking about, and on many occasions gave 2 different, conflicting and contradicting answers to the same question. Really, WotC Customer Service was no better at answering the questions than the message board posters were.

[Big Fau]

Really, WotC Customer Service was no better at answering the questions than the message board posters were.

Well, we tend to actually know what the exploits and tricks are. CustServ just took a look at it, asked someone else in the office who actually plays, and then made a choice from there.

[Cog]

It specifically references page 50 of the PHB, so it functions exactly as the rogue entry on that page. The evasion ability on that page is a class ability.
I made no dispute over the function. The problem is the source. The evasion granted to you functions in the same way that the class ability does, but you still do not have evasion as a class ability, since the ability is not supplied by your class - it is supplied by your bound soulmeld. MoI itself describes it as the Evasion ability, and not the Evasion class ability.

[Psyren]

I made no dispute over the function. The problem is the source. The evasion granted to you functions in the same way that the class ability does, but you still do not have evasion as a class ability, since the ability is not supplied by your class - it is supplied by your bound soulmeld. MoI itself describes it as the Evasion ability, and not the Evasion class ability.

But it goes on to say "see page 50 of the PHB" - and that evasion IS a class ability. It's not from your class, but it is from A class, so it counts by RAW.

I should let you know up front you're not going to convince me on this one. Boots of Impulse for FL (among others) is a well-known and accepted entry method.

[Big Fau]

I made no dispute over the function. The problem is the source. The evasion granted to you functions in the same way that the class ability does, but you still do not have evasion as a class ability, since the ability is not supplied by your class - it is supplied by your bound soulmeld. MoI itself describes it as the Evasion ability, and not the Evasion class ability.

I, for one, think denying them entry to a PrC because their Evasion isn't from a class feature is a bit of a jerk move.

[Fitz10019]

...you must qualify as you are, alone, naked, without magical effects on you

This interpretation is strengthened by video games, I believe, where the level-up functions usually ignore your gear or any temporary magical effects. Some people see this as the 'correct' way of doing things, rather than realize it's a limitation of the software. Thank your DMs for being a rational human interface to your level-up function. [YMMV]

[Taelas]

But it goes on to say "see page 50 of the PHB" - and that evasion IS a class ability. It's not from your class, but it is from A class, so it counts by RAW.

No, it's from a magic item. The fact that it references the class ability does not change the source.

[Cog]

But it goes on to say "see page 50 of the PHB" - and that evasion IS a class ability. It's not from your class, but it is from A class, so it counts by RAW.
Okay, let's take a look at page 50:


At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility.
Well, you now have the ability to grant Evasion to Rogues. Unfortunately for you yourself, you're not a Rogue.

Or, maybe, it's just just saying to look at page 50 for how the ability functions, and not for every single detail.


I should let you know up front you're not going to convince me on this one. Boots of Impulse for FL (among others) is a well-known and accepted entry method.
I wasn't particularly expecting to, and just because something is "well-known and accepted" doesn't mean it's actually correct.


I, for one, think denying them entry to a PrC because their Evasion isn't from a class feature is a bit of a jerk move.
Then your issue is with the writer or editor who decided to make it a class ability requirement. You're of course free to make whatever houserules you wish for your game.

[Moriato]

I, for one, think denying them entry to a PrC because their Evasion isn't from a class feature is a bit of a jerk move.

If I remember correctly, most of the PRCs that require evasion to enter specifically state that you need to have evasion as a class feature. So not so much, really.

[Psyren]

Well, you now have the ability to grant Evasion to Rogues. Unfortunately for you yourself, you're not a Rogue.

It asks for "evasion as a class ability" not "evasion as a rogue ability."

The evasion on PHB 50 comes from a class - the rogue.


Or, maybe, it's just just saying to look at page 50 for how the ability functions, and not for every single detail.

Sorry, that's not how RAW works. If it an ability references another source, it functions exactly as it would if taken from that source. Rogue evasion can be used to qualify for FL, therefore Boots of Impulse evasion can too. Keld already supplied the relevant citation.


I wasn't particularly expecting to, and just because something is "well-known and accepted" doesn't mean it's actually correct.

It doesn't mean it isn't, either.


Then your issue is with the writer or editor who decided to make it a class ability requirement. You're of course free to make whatever houserules you wish for your game.

While true, the fun part is that I don't have to in this instance.

[Cog]

If you have Evasion as a class ability, it must have come from some class you have, otherwise it is not a class ability. It might be a class ability for somebody else, but it is not a class ability for you.

You are not a Rogue, so you do not have Evasion as a Rogue class ability.

Incarnate does not list Evasion as a class ability, so you do not have Evasion as an Incarnate class ability.

What class grants you this class ability?

[dextercorvia]

If you have Evasion as a class ability, it must have come from some class you have, otherwise it is not a class ability. It might be a class ability for somebody else, but it is not a class ability for you.

You are not a Rogue, so you do not have Evasion as a Rogue class ability.

Incarnate does not list Evasion as a class ability, so you do not have Evasion as an Incarnate class ability.

What class grants you this class ability?

Soulmelds are an Incarnate class ability, and Impulse Boots grant evasion. It is not the evasion class ability, but it is evasion as a class ability.

[Psyren]

If you have Evasion as a class ability, it must have come from some class you have, otherwise it is not a class ability.

No, "class ability" just means "an ability from a class." I see nothing in that phrase that says you have to be a member of that class or it stops being a class ability.

[Taelas]

For it to be "an ability from a class", you must have the ability from a class. Soulmelds could possibly work; I know nothing about them. But a magical item does not fulfill the requirement.

[Psyren]

For it to be "an ability from a class", you must have the ability from a class. Soulmelds could possibly work; I know nothing about them. But a magical item does not fulfill the requirement.

They do come from a class - the Rogue is the class on PHB pg. 50, as referenced by the soulmeld.

[Taelas]

They come from the item, not from the class. It references the class feature, but that does not make the item a class feature.

[Psyren]

They come from the item, not from the class. It references the class feature, but that does not make the item a class feature.

Soulmelds aren't items.

Of course, if an item had referenced pg. 50 of the PHB too, I would be arguing for it as well.

[Divide by Zero]

This is just an argument of semantics. There's no clear RAW answer, so leave it up to the DM. If you are the DM, go with whatever makes sense to you.

[Starbuck_II]

This interpretation is strengthened by video games, I believe, where the level-up functions usually ignore your gear or any temporary magical effects. Some people see this as the 'correct' way of doing things, rather than realize it's a limitation of the software. Thank your DMs for being a rational human interface to your level-up function. [YMMV]

Not true, Buldar's Gate PC game doesn't. Which is why it helps to temporaily boost Con before leveling up and keeping the extra Con bonus to hps/level (prior to level 10).

[Taelas]

Soulmelds aren't items.

Of course, if an item had referenced pg. 50 of the PHB too, I would be arguing for it as well.

:smalltongue: I said I am not familiar with soulmelds and that they could possibly work, but that an item would not. When you replied, I assumed you were disputing the latter part.

[Fitz10019]

Not true, Buldar's Gate PC game doesn't. Which is why it helps to temporaily boost Con before leveling up and keeping the extra Con bonus to hps/level (prior to level 10).

I say 'usually' and you claim 'not true' with one lousy example... and that example is not even about choosing something with a prereq, like a feat or a prestige class. Tsk, tsk! You're in a TimeOut!

[Hazzardevil]

It asks for "evasion as a class ability" not "evasion as a rogue ability."

The evasion on PHB 50 comes from a class - the rogue.



Sorry, that's not how RAW works. If it an ability references another source, it functions exactly as it would if taken from that source. Rogue evasion can be used to qualify for FL, therefore Boots of Impulse evasion can too. Keld already supplied the relevant citation.



It doesn't mean it isn't, either.



While true, the fun part is that I don't have to in this instance.

Psyren, I think this.
If it says Evasion as the class ability by RAW Ring of Evasion does it. Because it works "as Evasion."
If it asks for "Evasion as a class ability" it wants a class ability and not an item. Therefore incarnum items give it because you get evasion as a class ability.

[Psyren]

Psyren, I think this.
If it says Evasion as the class ability by RAW Ring of Evasion does it. Because it works "as Evasion."
If it asks for "Evasion as a class ability" it wants a class ability and not an item. Therefore incarnum items give it because you get evasion as a class ability.

You're quoting the wrong guy - I'm the one supporting Incarnum granting the ability.

[Starbuck_II]

I say 'usually' and you claim 'not true' with one lousy example... and that example is not even about choosing something with a prereq, like a feat or a prestige class. Tsk, tsk! You're in a TimeOut!

"Objection!"

I am using argument by analogy. As well, your statement lacked words strength with weak words like "usually".

I was proving that the statement is not true of some video games. In fact, I don't know any that do.