A Whole Lot of Attacks per Turn...

[brujon]

So, i like the Warblade Übercharger, but i prefer TWF over THF, aesthetically. So i went and made a TWF Warblade Ubercharger, and the result is a Whole Lot of Attacks Per Turn...


Human Barbarian1/Fighter2/Warblade17

Variants Used:

Lion Totem Barbarian(Complete Champion pg45.)
- Fast Movement
+ Pounce
Whirling Frenzy -> +4/+6/+8 STR +2/+3/+4 Dodge AC/Reflex Saves +1 Attack per Round while Frenzied.

Feat Breakdown

1 - Barbarian 1 -> Battle Jump(Unapproachable East, pg. 42) ; Power Attack

2 - Fighter 1 -> Improved Bull Rush

3 - Warblade 1 -> Two Weapon Fighting

5 - Fighter 2 -> Leap Attack(CAdv)

6 - Warblade 3 -> Shock Trooper

8 - Warblade 5 -> Leap of Heavens(PHB2)

9 - Warblade 6 -> Improved Two Weapon Fighting

12 - Warblade 9 -> Greater Two Weapon Fighting; Ironheart Aura(ToB)

15 - Warblade 12 -> Improved Sunder

16 - Warblade 13 -> Combat Brute

18 - Warblade 15 -> Improved Initiative

20 - Warblade 17 -> Stormguard Warrior(ToB)

Maneuver Breakdown:

MANEUVERS:


Level 2:
WARBLADE 1: Punishing Stance(Stance, Iron), Sudden Leap(Tiger), Emerald Razor (Diam), Wall of Blades (Iron)

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 2: Steel Wind(Iron)

LEVEL 3

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 3: Soaring Raptor's Strike(Tiger)

SWAP
+1 STANCE WARBLADE 4: Leaping Dragon Stance(Stance, Tiger)

LEVEL 4

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 5: Death From Above (Tiger)

SWAP WARBLADE 6: Emerald Razor(Diam) ----> Bounding Assault (Diam)

LEVEL 5

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 7: Dancing Mongoose (Tiger)

SWAP WARBLADE 8: Steel Wind(Iron) ---> Rapid Counter(Diam)

LEVEL 6

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 9: Moment of Alacrity(Diam)

SWAP / +1 STANCE WARBLADE 10: Soaring Raptor's Strike(Tiger) ---> Rabid Bear Strike(Tiger), Hearing the Air(Stance, Diam)

LEVEL 7

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 11: Swooping Dragon Strike(Tiger)

SWAP WARBLADE 12: Rabid Bear Strike(Tiger) ---> Hamstring Attack(Tiger)

LEVEL 8

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 13: Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip(Tiger)

SWAP WARBLADE 14: Dancing Mongoose ----> Raging Mongoose)

LEVEL 9

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 15: Time Stands Still(Diam)

SWAP
+1 STANCE WARBLADE 16: Stance of Alacrity(Stance, Diam), Hamstring Attack(Tiger) ---> Mountain Tombstone Strike(Stone)

+1 Maneuver WARBLADE 17: Diamond Defense (Diam)

Items:
81,890 gold left.

MISC:
Girdle of Jumping (+30) -> 90k

WAIST:Belt of Battle(Magic Item Compendium) 12k
ARMOR: Nimbleness Speed Heavy Fortification Mithral Breastplate (Max Dex +7 Armor Check 0/Immune To Critical Hits/Sneak Attacks ; Haste 3x Day) 52,5k
WEAPON: 2X Collision Speed Kukri (+5dmg/+1 extra attack) 100k
ARMS: ?
FACE: Corsair's Eyepatch 3k
FEET: Boots of the Battle Charger 2k
Boots of Jumping 2,5k
HANDS: Glove of Storing 10k
Gauntlets of Destruction 6610gp
HEAD: Mindvault 8k
RINGS: Ring of Sustenance 2,5k
Rings of Force Armor[Pair] 30k
Ring of Freedom of Movement 40k
Ring of Water Breathing 6k
SHOULDERS: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k)
THROAT:Hand of Glory (8k) [+1ring slot]

Tome of Gainful Exercicse 137,500
Tome of Quickness in Action 137,500

So, now that that's done with...

30-point buy:

STR 14 -> 22 (+1 level + 5 Tome + 2 Gauntlet)
DEX 16 -> 24 (+3 level + 5 Tome)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10

The AC Should be: 10 + 7(dex) + 5 (armor) + 5(Ring of Force Armor) = 27 AC. or 31 when Whirling Frenzying. It could be better, but that doesn't matter.

What really matters is our full attack.

A fighter20 has... 20/15/10/5/0 on a full attack.

This dude... Get ready:

1-Extra Attack From Speed Property on both hands
1-Extra Attack from Frenzying
1-Extra Attack from Haste

18/18/18/18/13/8/3/-2 plus 18/18/18/18/13/8 on the off-hand.
*BAB VALUES

So that's 15 attacks on a full attack. Wow. 3 Times what that puny fighter can do. But that doesn't stop there. No sir.

Because we're badasses.

With One Maneuver from Tome of Battle, we can attack TWICE in the same round.

Time Stands Still let's us attack 30 times in a round.

But it doesn't stop there. Using Sudden Leap, we can jump 10ft or more and initiate a charge as a swift action, full-attacking with pounce at the end, of course. Then we use our Move Action to Jump Again, and our Standard Action to Jump AGAIN! Charging 2 more times, full-attacking 2 more times.

So now we're getting somewhere. 45 attacks in 1 round.

But there's more - oh yes, there's more. Instead of using our precious Swift Action to activate Sudden Leap, we use that precious swift action to expend 3 charges of the Belt of Battle and gain a full round action. So we have a Full Round Action, + A Standard and a Move action. So we expend that swift action from our full round action to activate Raging Mongoose, DOUBLING the attacks on EACH weapon for the turn. And with our 2 move actions and 2 standard actions, we initiate 4 charges, and 4 full attacks, dealing QUADRUPLE the number of attacks, for a grand total of:

240 attacks in 1 round. Ouch.

[Galileo]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but fighters only get 4 attacks maximum from BAB. That Time Stands Still/Belt of Battle combo is pretty fun though.

[Ravens_cry]

Even if this worked, it would be a royal, no, imperial pain to run in an actual game, with the possible exception of forum or email Play-by-Post.

[DefKab]

240 attacks per round... Isn't that a Final Fantasy Limit Break?

No seriously, is this true? We should figure out average damage for that...

[brujon]

But what good are 240 attacks that don't do any damage? You see, that's why we stacked up those familiar Ubercharger feats.

We're already jumping every time we want to charge, so all our power attack power is multiplied by TWO by the Leap Attack Feat. And Shock Trooper let's us take all the power attack penalty we want, because it goes straight to AC. So we take 18 penalty to AC to gain +36 damage on all our 240 attacks.

Assuming they all hit, that's 8640 damage. ONLY from power attack.

But that's change compared to what we can do if we set up one turn.

Using the basic 45 attack routine, we take a -5 Penalty to our AC to gain a +10 damage bonus to our attacks. But, we use the Combat Rythm option of Stormguard Warrior to make all those 45 attacks into Melee Touch Attacks, and for every one that hits, we gain +5 damage on our next turn.

On the next turn, you use Momentum Swing from Combat Brute to convert the -5 penalty you took the other round into a 14 damage bonus(because of the doubling from Leap Attack). So assuming all Melee Touch Attacks had hit, it's 36 + 14 + 225 damage on every one of the next 240 attacks.

So again, assuming they all hit, it's 66000 damage.

Again, this is not counting weapon damage or criticals you WILL have on those 240 attacks.

So i'm hoping you guys will appreciate the power of this (i think), new take on the Warblade Ubercharger.

[brujon]

240 attacks per round... Isn't that a Final Fantasy Limit Break?

No seriously, is this true? We should figure out average damage for that...

I just did. And i didn't take in consideration the number of average critical hits you will have using this routine. Heck, i didn't even put a Keen Weapon on this guy, or got Improved Critical from an item or a crystal or something.

And yeah, sadly, i think this is true. I spent a lot of time thinking this up.

[brujon]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but fighters only get 4 attacks maximum from BAB. That Time Stands Still/Belt of Battle combo is pretty fun though.

The BAB routine is correct. You have 5 attacks normal, + 3 attacks on your off-hand, so 8. Then you have +1 attack each hand from Speed weapon property, so 10, plus +1 attack each hand from haste, so 12, and +1 attack each from Whirling Frenzy. So 14. Huh, i think i miscounted one number. So yeah, you're partially right :)

[Diarmuid]

Couple other notes besides the whole "you have too many interatives for a lvl 20 fighter"

Speed property doesnt stack with Haste, that was a 3.0 artifact.
Unless you have something that says otherwise that I missed, you cant PA with light weapons.

Edit - Also, Haste would only give you 1 extra attack at your highest BAB, not 1 with each hand.

[brujon]

Couple other notes besides the whole "you have too many interatives for a lvl 20 fighter"

Speed property doesnt stack with Haste, that was a 3.0 artifact.
Unless you have something that says otherwise that I missed, you cant PA with light weapons.

Edit - Also, Haste would only give you 1 extra attack at your highest BAB, not 1 with each hand.

Dang, you're right. Guess it boggles down from 15 attacks a round to 11 attacks per round, then. Nothing that can't be fixed by an updated build with a monk dip for Flurry of Blows, maybe even Snap Kick. Power Attack part is easily fixed by using a Double Weapon instead of 2 kukris. I'll be working on it later, but the concept is still sound.

It only goes from 240 attacks to 44x4 or 176 attacks. Power Attack part still easily fixed by Double Weapon. Demonstrative damage only factored in Iteratives from TWF and not Weapon Damage anyways.

[DefKab]

But what good are 240 attacks that don't do any damage? You see, that's why we stacked up those familiar Ubercharger feats.

We're already jumping every time we want to charge, so all our power attack power is multiplied by TWO by the Leap Attack Feat. And Shock Trooper let's us take all the power attack penalty we want, because it goes straight to AC. So we take 18 penalty to AC to gain +36 damage on all our 240 attacks.

Assuming they all hit, that's 8640 damage. ONLY from power attack.

But that's change compared to what we can do if we set up one turn.

Using the basic 45 attack routine, we take a -5 Penalty to our AC to gain a +10 damage bonus to our attacks. But, we use the Combat Rythm option of Stormguard Warrior to make all those 45 attacks into Melee Touch Attacks, and for every one that hits, we gain +5 damage on our next turn.

On the next turn, you use Momentum Swing from Combat Brute to convert the -5 penalty you took the other round into a 14 damage bonus(because of the doubling from Leap Attack). So assuming all Melee Touch Attacks had hit, it's 36 + 14 + 225 damage on every one of the next 240 attacks.

So again, assuming they all hit, it's 66000 damage.

Again, this is not counting weapon damage or criticals you WILL have on those 240 attacks.

So i'm hoping you guys will appreciate the power of this (i think), new take on the Warblade Ubercharger.

But then, of course, you'd still max out at 9999 damage, unless you had the Damage Break materia...

[brujon]

Even if this worked, it would be a royal, no, imperial pain to run in an actual game, with the possible exception of forum or email Play-by-Post.

This is why at my games, we all agreed to use a notebook to roll all our dices... We just need to type how many dices, the modifiers, attack and AC, and presto. :D

[Ravens_cry]

This is why at my games, we all agreed to use a notebook to roll all our dices... We just need to type how many dices, the modifiers, attack and AC, and presto. :D
And if something has DR, as they are wont to do at higher levels? Just typing in the numbers, it is going to take a substantial amount of time to subtract, say, 15 from the results of 240 attacks.:smallyuk:

[Diarmuid]

You're also ignoring the fact that you only get 1 Swift action in a round. No matter how many times you Jump, which triggers the ability to opt to make a charge as a swift, you still only get 1 swift action to spend in a given round.

Now, having gone and actually read Sudden Leap, this is not something that is triggered every time you jump. You spend a swift action to trigger the ability, and then you move that distance. You still need to meet the whole "move 10 feet" to do a charge.

All in all, your build is based on very poor logic and is in no way something actually feasible to do.

[brujon]

If it's just one opponent, then you just have to multiply DR x Nº Of Attacks, and subtract the result... =P Also, it's not that hard to program DR. Others have done it on IRC.

[brujon]

You're also ignoring the fact that you only get 1 Swift action in a round. No matter how many times you Jump, which triggers the ability to opt to make a charge as a swift, you still only get 1 swift action to spend in a given round.

Now, having gone and actually read Sudden Leap, this is not something that is triggered every time you jump. You spend a swift action to trigger the ability, and then you move that distance. You still need to meet the whole "move 10 feet" to do a charge.

All in all, your build is based on very poor logic and is in no way something actually feasible to do.

SRD says you can charge as a move action and as a standard action, only you're limited to your normal movement, not 2x movement.

Secondly, you see i only use the Sudden Leap trick to make the third full attack, not ALL of them. You can use a Move/Standard action to jump, and that can initiate the charge. So 3 full attacks in a round is a given.

Thirdly, using the Belt of Battle, it says it grants you a Full Round action, which i read to include a move and a standard action, and i don't use another swift action. Only 2 moves and 2 standards. Which gives me 4 full attacks, or with the new, updated iteratives, 44 attacks in the round.

Battle Jump from Unapproachable East says you need to move at least 10ft vertically to do a charge. So you make the 32DC check, jump and charge. Pounce and full attack, rinse and repeat. This is by RAW. I never said all the charges were made as Swift Actions, only that Sudden Leap makes it possible to make one per turn.

[Big Fau]

The current record is over a million. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0)

[Diarmuid]

So you're getting 4 attacks from BAB/TWF with each hand, this point I will concede.

The speed enhancement on each weapon grants an additional attack, OK...5 with each hand. Speed specifically stats that it doesnt stack with similar abilities like Haste, already covered...no Haste. Trying to say that Whirling Frenzy stacks when Haste doesnt is just ridiculous, so no...no additional attack there.

So, 10 attacks on a full attack, cool.

Raging Mongoose says absolutely nothing about "doubling your attacks for the round". It says you make 2 extra attacks with each weapon you wield, going on to specify that 4 extra attacks is the maximum number of extra attacks you can make.

So you use your Jump and charge, 10 attacks. Now you standard and jump, another 10. I'm with you so far.


Lastly, you spend your swift for a Full Round in the belt, OK.

So you swift again for Mongoose, 4 attacks. Then Standard/Move for jumps again for 10 each.

Smells like 44 attacks not 240 something.

You'd actually be better off using that second swift for a Sudden Leap, that would at least get you to 50 attacks.

[brujon]

Wow, just LOL! I didn't think i had much chance of achieving new heights anyway, but a million attacks is much more than i thought outside of pun-pun ;O

[Darrin]

Human Barbarian1/Fighter2/Warblade17


Mmmm... needs more Totemist.

[Graha013]

Am I missing something intrinsic with charging and having to move x amount of feet to be able to charge, and it being in a straight line, and AOOs stopping charges if hit?

[Acanous]

yes, he's taking like 5 jump-charge feats, which allow him to do silly things like jump 10' in the air, then charge straight down.

Seems like yes, the number of attacks you can get is somewhere around 50, which is still pretty darned good. Seeing as my group plays with the rule [your turn ends if you fumble] any more than 40 attacks in a round is a waste anyhow.

Also with the charge feats, and that gear selection, you're going to be dealing a pretty unreasonable ammount of damage.

[Acanous]

yes, he's taking like 5 jump-charge feats, which allow him to do silly things like jump 10' in the air, then charge straight down.

Seems like yes, the number of attacks you can get is somewhere around 50, which is still pretty darned good. Seeing as my group plays with the rule [your turn ends if you fumble] any more than 40 attacks in a round is a waste anyhow.

Also with the charge feats, and that gear selection, you're going to be dealing a pretty unreasonable ammount of damage.

[Seerow]

Extra attack from speed, haste, and frenzy don't stack if I recall correctly. So you have too many attacks there as well.

[Keld Denar]

Raging Mongoose does not "double" your attacks per round. It gives you +2 attacks with both hands. It also isn't addative with Time Stands Still because it does not add attacks to your full attack, it simply gives you 4 attacks as a swift action.

Also, it is a matter of high contention that a Belt of Battle does NOT give you an extra swift action if you use it to gain a full round action.

Also, the only way you can charge multiple times in a round is by a rather loose interpretation of Battle Jump. The rules for making what used to be defined as a "partial charge" in 3.0 ONLY apply if you are unable to take a full round action (ie Slowed, in a surprise round, etc).

As noted, "of Speed" functions like haste. Haste explicitly states that you can only make one extra attack per round due to haste. If you have speed on both weapons, you are redundant. If you have speed on both weapons AND you are under the effects of the haste spell, you are redundantly redundant.

Really, there are a fair number of holes in your build. You might want to take a look at some things, touch up on the rules, and fix the build. Its not nearly as outrageous as you think if you actually follow the rules.

[Diarmuid]

KD - I havent seen the BoB/Swift Action debates. Just curious what the two viewpoints would be.

[Big Fau]

KD - I havent seen the BoB/Swift Action debates. Just curious what the two viewpoints would be.

The Belt of Battle either gives you an additional turn or an additional full round action. The former means you also get a Swift action, but the latter means you can only get a Full Round Action (or a Standard/Move or Double Move action).


AFB, so I can't give a full quote. And the actual debate is about Greater Celerity, not the BoB (the original source of the debate was using a BoB after casting Greater Celerity).

[Diarmuid]

I checked my PHB and Swift Actions are not described at all. What book did they first appear in?

[Eldariel]

The Belt of Battle either gives you an additional turn or an additional full round action. The former means you also get a Swift action, but the latter means you can only get a Full Round Action (or a Standard/Move or Double Move action).


AFB, so I can't give a full quote. And the actual debate is about Greater Celerity, not the BoB (the original source of the debate was using a BoB after casting Greater Celerity).

BoB shouldn't be a matter of contention; the book is explicit in that it gives you:
"3 charges: 1 full-round action."

Whether the full-round action can be spent on a Standard and a Move Action or if you can only spend it as a full-round action is a matter of contention but BoB doesn't grant the turn. Greater Celerity is another matter, of course. The big thing with it is how it gives you actions outside your turn which...is kinda atypical in the system.


I checked my PHB and Swift Actions are not described at all. What book did they first appear in?

Complete Arcane. Might want to just check SRD though; it defines them. Rules Compendium is another option.

[dextercorvia]

I checked my PHB and Swift Actions are not described at all. What book did they first appear in?

I'm not sure, but the RC has their description. I'm fairly certain that they were made OGL.


SWIFT ACTION
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but it
represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action.
You can take a swift action any time during your turn, but
you can perform only one swift action per turn.

Edit: Whirling, TWF, Haste or Speed would be:

18/18/18/13/8/3 and 18/13/8 for 9 attacks before multiple charge shenanigans.

The only ways to get more swift actions in a round is to get extra full turns via something like White Raven Tactics, or swapping turn attempts for them via Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Battle Jump requires you to begin your jump from above. With a standard rounds worth of actions, you are going to have trouble getting this 3 times. Twice maybe. That's assuming that Battlejump doesn't just mean that you can replace the movement portion of charging with the jump, ie. that it still requires a full-round action that allows a jump and an attack.

[Chen]

KD - I havent seen the BoB/Swift Action debates. Just curious what the two viewpoints would be.

Belt of Battle grants a Full Round Action doesn't it? It doesn't grant a full round's worth of actions. Ostensibly that means you only ever get one action from a belt of battle activation and its just the type of action that changes depending on the charges used.

[Diarmuid]

By those wordings, I would lean to the side that says this doesnt let you avoid the whole "you only get 1 swift action per turn".

Thanks for the quotes, SRD is blocked at work but I always have my PHB with me.