[PF] Psionics Unleashed - Infinite Healing?

[subject42]

It's nothing game-breaking, but am I reading this right?



Discipline Talents (Ps)

Choose two powers from the following list: hammer, synesthete, thicken skin, and vigor.

As long as you maintain psionic focus, you may manifest either of your chosen powers without paying a power point cost, but the power may not be augmented or affected by metapsionic feats.





Metabolic Healing (Su)

At 2nd level, as long as you maintain psionic focus, you gain fast healing 1 when you manifest any psychometabolism power on yourself. This fast healing lasts for a number of rounds equal to the level of the power manifested. The fast healing increases by 1 for every four psion levels thereafter.



Based on that, doesn't that mean that an Egoist manifesting Vigor via his discipline talent ability can use his metabolic healing ability to regain all of his lost hit points outside of combat?

[FMArthur]

Looks like it. As you say, nothing game-breaking. It doesn't change your adventuring stamina that much because you still can only last a certain number of encounters and remain useful to the group before needing to rest for power points.

If it worked on the whole party it might influence your group's adventuring day, but it doesn't. Even that doesn't do anything horrible for the game despite PF's careful limitations on healing.

[subject42]

If it worked on the whole party it might influence your group's adventuring day, but it doesn't. Even that doesn't do anything horrible for the game despite PF's careful limitations on healing.

I'm kind of new to Psionics. Could you use Empathic Transfer (possibly via a dorje) to heal the party, then infiniheal yourself back up to full? How is that in terms of adventuring efficiency compared to the other canonical methods (wand of lesser vigor, wand of CLW, healing belt, cleric casting)?

[Psyren]

I'm kind of new to Psionics. Could you use Empathic Transfer (possibly via a dorje) to heal the party, then infiniheal yourself back up to full? How is that in terms of adventuring efficiency compared to the other canonical methods (wand of lesser vigor, wand of CLW, healing belt, cleric casting)?

It's not that different unless your DM is bombarding you with encounters constantly. It's too slow for in-combat use, and out of combat healing isn't relevant most of the time anyway. Finally, using it to heal the party requires power points (for ET); so the only person getting "infinite" healing out of it would be yourself. Which is fine since being hard to take down is the Egoist's main schtick.

[Khantin]

You would get fast healing 1 for 0 rounds, as those powers are considered 0 level.



Each discipline gains access to two psi-like abilities that can be used as long as the psion maintains psionic focus. Discipline talents are treated as 0-level powers for all purposes (such as save DC).

[subject42]

Good catch. I missed that somehow.

[Psyren]

Whoops, missed the duration bit. Good catch Khantin.

[FMArthur]

I'm kind of new to Psionics. Could you use Empathic Transfer (possibly via a dorje) to heal the party, then infiniheal yourself back up to full? How is that in terms of adventuring efficiency compared to the other canonical methods (wand of lesser vigor, wand of CLW, healing belt, cleric casting)?

I just compared a 10th-level cleric and a psion dedicating all of their daily abilities to healing this way. The psion come out slightly behind the cleric. And considering how much easier and faster it is for clerics to do this, they'd still be the definitive healer in groups that use them as such, although this could be a (rather arduous and somewhat inglorious) back-up job for a psion. Regardless, it's best to devote some gold to healing items instead of doing either.

[Psyren]

Psionics Expanded does have a nice dedicated healer base class out - the Vitalist, who at high levels can chill out in her living room and still heal the entire party while they adventure (even on another plane near the capstone.)

[subject42]

Psionics Expanded does have a nice dedicated healer base class out - the Vitalist, who at high levels can chill out in her living room and still heal the entire party while they adventure (even on another plane near the capstone.)

Do you know if that will end up on the Pathfinder SRD like Psionics Unleashed did? I plan to buy it when it comes out, but I really prefer the hyperlinked layout.

[Psyren]

Do you know if that will end up on the Pathfinder SRD like Psionics Unleashed did? I plan to buy it when it comes out, but I really prefer the hyperlinked layout.

Well, first off Mind over Body is out; you can either pick it up solo for $3.99, or do what I did and pre-order the entire Psionics Expanded project for $9.95, which will net you all six serialized releases for no additional cost (as opposed to buying them individually for 3.99 each.) Currently, two of the six are complete - Mind over Body, which contains the Vitalist base class as I mentioned above, and Finding the Mark, which contains the Marksman and Soulbolt. Both also contain a bunch of new feats, psywar paths, items, PrCs, powers and other goodies.

As for it being uploaded to the PFSRD, I'm sure it will be eventually as its contents are OGL (barring product identity stuff like the artwork.) I couldn't tell you when that would be however.

[Big Fau]

Even that doesn't do anything horrible for the game despite PF's careful limitations on healing.

I just fell out of my chair laughing. You seriously think they were careful with it, seeing as they considered the Cleric's Channel Energy overpowered (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/pathfinderRPGBeta/design/clericDruidPaladin/theElephantInTheRoomHealingAtRange)?

That thread is 174 pages BTW.

[subject42]

Well, first off Mind over Body is out; you can either pick it up solo for $3.99, or do what I did and pre-order the entire Psionics Expanded project for $9.95, which will net you all six serialized releases for no additional cost (as opposed to buying them individually for 3.99 each.) Currently, two of the six are complete - Mind over Body, which contains the Vitalist base class as I mentioned above, and Finding the Mark, which contains the Marksman and Soulbolt. Both also contain a bunch of new feats, psywar paths, items, PrCs, powers and other goodies.

As for it being uploaded to the PFSRD, I'm sure it will be eventually as its contents are OGL (barring product identity stuff like the artwork.) I couldn't tell you when that would be however.

It's out already? I'll have to put in an order this evening, then.

[FMArthur]

I just fell out of my chair laughing. You seriously think they were careful with it, seeing as they considered the Cleric's Channel Energy overpowered (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/pathfinderRPGBeta/design/clericDruidPaladin/theElephantInTheRoomHealingAtRange)?

That thread is 174 pages BTW.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to say that they were not careful about giving out healing and that they greatly overvalue healing?

The fact is that part of Pathfinder's design goals were to rein-in some underpowered options they regarded as being overpowered, such as infinite healing and melee damage. They have been careful never to give out unlimited sources of healing as an unspoken rule of their design. This is something they would view as overpowered, and I was saying that, despite what they may think, it wouldn't hurt the game at all. :smallconfused:

[Blisstake]

...

...I think I know where this is going.

:smallsigh:

[Big Fau]

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to say that they were not careful about giving out healing and that they greatly overvalue healing?

The fact is that part of Pathfinder's design goals were to rein-in some underpowered options they regarded as being overpowered, such as infinite healing and melee damage. They have been careful never to give out unlimited sources of healing as an unspoken rule of their design. This is something they would view as overpowered, and I was saying that, despite what they may think, it wouldn't hurt the game at all. :smallconfused:

I agree that infinite healing wouldn't hurt the system (3.5, PF, 4E, or otherwise), but I just had to laugh at the idea that they were careful about avoiding it.

And they still have infinite resources. They just do not realize it, even though several of these have been pointed out. Never mind that the removed a resource that was actually limiting infinite resources (XP for crafting magic items).

For example, do you know the Craft skill can still result in infinite GP, just by crafting Balancing Poles?



This wouldn't be a problem if they actually listened to some optimizers when designing PF.

[subject42]

...

...I think I know where this is going.

:smallsigh:

A lengthy rant on how power attack is so bad in PF that it causes milk to squirt out of your nose and bruises to appear on photographs of your ancestors?

[Psyren]

PF is still unbalanced, yes. It doesn't matter to me; I find it more fun to be a wizard that doesn't get owned at level 1 by a Ray of Frost, a Fighter that can hardly jump because he doesn't have the skill points, a human because every other race but Warforged sucks, forced to choose between a PrC with godawful prereqs or a base class that I have no reason to stay in because half the levels are dead, and only getting 7 feats over my character's career.

Above all, it's nice to find a 3.x format that is actually played at the stores in my area, because I'll be damned if I switch to 4e.

[Prime32]

You can already get infinite healing from Echoing Spell + Spell Perfection anyway.

[Khantin]

You can already get infinite healing from Echoing Spell + Spell Perfection anyway.

I think I see where you are going with this, the wording is a little dodgy though. I think by RAW you may be correct, in that you can keep applying echoing spell to the spell echos (and in turn get another echo). But honestly you have to be lvl 15 to pull this off and by then healing isn't exactly a huge concern.

edit: I should clarify that when I say the wording is dodgy, I mean the wording of the feat.

[Blisstake]

A lead designer for Paizo said that the combo wasn't intended. They are probably going to clarify Echoing Spell in an errata for Ultimate magic.

See Jason Bulmahn's posts in page two (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/general/ultimateMagusUnlimitedSpellPerDayCombo&page=2) of this forum topic.

[mikau013]

Looks like it. As you say, nothing game-breaking. It doesn't change your adventuring stamina that much because you still can only last a certain number of encounters and remain useful to the group before needing to rest for power points.

If it worked on the whole party it might influence your group's adventuring day, but it doesn't. Even that doesn't do anything horrible for the game despite PF's careful limitations on healing.

Unless I missed something, the glorious heat feat + spark works fine in pf for unlimited healing?

[FMArthur]

I'm sorry if you and Big Fau got the impression that I was saying it was impossible in Pathfinder to get limitless healing. That wasn't what I meant to convey at all, only that they intended to prevent it and were abnormally and needlessly resistant to the idea.

[mikau013]

I'm sorry if you and Big Fau got the impression that I was saying it was impossible in Pathfinder to get limitless healing. That wasn't what I meant to convey at all, only that they intended to prevent it and were abnormally and needlessly resistant to the idea.

Ah yeah but what they intend and do are often completely different things :smallbiggrin:


I don't get what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to say that they were not careful about giving out healing and that they greatly overvalue healing?

The fact is that part of Pathfinder's design goals were to rein-in some underpowered options they regarded as being overpowered, such as infinite healing and melee damage. They have been careful never to give out unlimited sources of healing as an unspoken rule of their design. This is something they would view as overpowered, and I was saying that, despite what they may think, it wouldn't hurt the game at all. :smallconfused:

I'm not sure if the game would be better or not if we didn't have to care about our out of combat healing. Even if we don't use any 'tricks', healing starts out as a limited resource that quickly loses its limitations.

I believe pathfinder assumes that pcs spend around 15% of their wealth on consumables. And wealth by level is a bit higher than in 3.5. Thus as we reach higher lvls, cure ligt wound wands become trivial in cost.

But lets discuss what unlimited healing actually does.
Any dmg done in an encounter which doesn't do enough hp dmg to get you below 1 hp is meaningless, if you can heal it at basically no cost.
Thus things like falling dmg (as long as it doesn't instantly kill you) from exploration and a lot of traps (out of combat) become meaningless.
Not to mention that all encounters become more deadly, since if the dmg taken isn't enough it is just meaningless.

Of course healing isn't the only resource, everybody knows that casters run out of spell especially at low levels. Though actually in pathfinder it seems that the non casters all get a point pool that runs out way faster than spells do for full casters. Like bardic music, smite, ki pool etc

But as I keep writing I'm getting more and more off base :smallredface:

[Psyren]

Ah yeah but what they intend and do are often completely different things :smallbiggrin:

At least paizo still release errata (and DSP is VERY good about errata when it is required, too.) WotC sort of looks at a document once, says "we should have play-tested that," makes a half-assed effort, then moves on to the next book. :smallyuk:

So I'm a lot more okay with those two dropping the ball occasionally. After all, hundreds of players are going to find every exploit better than a handful of designers will, every time.